The Bechdel Cast - Gladiator with Emma Southon

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

On this episode, gladiators Caitlinus, Jamieus, and special guest Emma Southon enter the Colosseum to battle with Gladiator (2000). Follow Emma at @emmasouthon on Instagram and check out her website -- where you can learn more about her books -- at www.emmasouthon.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The patriarchy's effin vast, start changing it with the Bechdel cast. From the studio that brought you Shrek, it's the gladiator episode of the Bechtel cast. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. Hold on. Did I just learn something? I mean, it's DreamWorks. It's DreamWorks? Yeah. That's so, wait.

I don't want to introduce myself yet. That is shocking information. Why would this be dream? Wow. So they really like, two roads diverged in a wood for them. And they were like, we're going Shrek. We're putting our money on Shrek. And honestly, I think that that was the right decision for the culture, ultimately. Sure, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we're just getting Gladiator 2. Meanwhile, Shrek 5 wrapped. It's wrapped? Yes. I don't know. I made that up. I know it's been announced. You don't see Sutton Foster starring in Gladiator the musical on Broadway. Well, that's true.

Do we see her playing Princess Fiona on Broadway? We sure do. Two years straight, nominated for a Tony. Whoa. We sure do to your straight nominated for a Tony. Whoa, but enough about Shrek. I can't believe that gladiator shocking shocking Shrocking I would say Shrocking Caitlin and I did see Shrek in 35 millimeter, which should not be a sentence. That's so ridiculous But we did we invested for like no DVD. We need to see it in the raw Yeah on the big screen. It was awesome

It was literally I think the audience was split in two of like irony-pilled childless millennials and normal families and We were all having a great time. Oh, yeah Nine-year-olds and 39 year olds were all rocking. It was great 10 out of 10. And also Gladiator. And also Gladiator. Wow, I can't believe that. Okay, a rich conversation already.

My name is Jamie Loftus. This is our show that takes a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point for discussion, which is hilarious for this movie specifically. But just for the sake of argument, Caitlin, what is the Bechtel test? Caitlin McHale Real quick here, because spoiler alert, the movie doesn't pass even a little bit.

Lauren Henry It will not come into play. There's not even an argument for like, well, could it be like, no. Caitlin McHale Right. It's just a media metric that we use to initiate larger conversations about representation. There are many versions of it. Ours is, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

And is there conversation about something other than a man? And we like it when it's a, you know, narratively significant conversation and not just throw away dialogue, but again, it won't even come close for this movie. But we will have a rich discussion nonetheless with a wonderful guest that we're very excited about. Yeah, she's incredible. And this movie is the most fathers and sons coded movie I think I've ever seen.

There's so many fathers and so many sons. So many sons. Enough already. Enough with the fathers and the sons. Yes, which is why we brought on this guest who frames Roman history a little bit differently. So our guest is a historian and writer, author of many books, one of which is entitled A Rome of One's Own, a history of the Roman Empire in 21 Women. It's Emma Suthin. Hello. Welcome. Emma Suthin Hi, thank you.

Emma Suthin Thanks for being here. Emma Suthin Oh my gosh, I'm so excited that we have you on the show. Gosh, I mean, I have so many questions. But especially because was it just last year? I feel like time is a flat circle. Was it an interesting time for you when the Roman Empire meme was making the rounds ad nauseam? Yeah, it was. Yeah. As one of the few women in the world that spend significantly more time talking and thinking about the Roman Empire than her husband. It was a fun time for me. And yeah, it came out, was going around just as my book was coming out, so it felt like a marketing campaign specifically for me, which was great.

Incredible. I could be like, look, it's not just like aqueducts and people saying Marcus Aurelius and then... up as an authority on the Roman Empire? I did my A levels in ancient history at the exact time that this film came out, which I only did. So in the UK, you get to choose subjects that you're going to do to study like narrow down to four subjects when you're 16. They just like choose a career path. And I did ancient history because I thought sounded fun

and you got to go on trips to Italy and Greece. And I just was immediately captivated by the Romans history because I thought sounded fun and you got to go on trips to Italy and Greece. And I just was immediately captivated by the Romans and how utterly, utterly horrible they are. And I kept trying to leave, like I tried to do my undergraduate in something else. I tried to do my master's degree in something else and I just kept quitting and going back and doing Romans. And then I did my PhD and decided I didn't want to be an academic. I just wanted to write books with jokes in instead. And I've been getting away with that now for a decade.

Love that. It rocks. And specifically, I mean, I will talk about this throughout the episode, but specifically you have been, it seems like one of the few people who have centered women in your histories of Rome. So when you're like coming up in this space, was that a hard sell for people? Was there a demand for it? Like, how did you sort of land on on that specific focus? I think because I'm a woman, and I'm also a working class woman. And so so much of what you read about when you're reading about Romans is like five

of the most upper class guys you've ever heard of, like Seneca and Cicero and emperors who are all like the most elite rich men that you can humanly imagine. And I just do not empathize with those people at all. Like I do not imagine myself as them, but so many ancient historians and classicists totally do. They're like me, Cicero. That's who I would be if I was put in the past. And I just don't at all. So I wanted to find, you know, whenever I was studying it I'd always be like, who would I be in this picture? And I would be like some woman standing at the back being like, oh, this doesn't look like it's going very well. Basically any given situation. So I'm, you know, I like telling those stories and expanding the idea of what

the Roman Empire is and what Roman history is because we have so much information about the ancient world. Like we have so much and it's all right there, but people are not necessarily interested in looking for it themselves. so I do it for them and then tell them about it. Because I'm basically just looking for myself in the past to gossip about and make it fun. I think that they're just inherently funny, because they take themselves very seriously, but they're not a serious people. To me it's very easy to make jokes about them.

More people should make fun of them I think and that's what we're gonna do here today Yeah, there is notes of you know, just notes of a crumbling Empire. You're like, yeah, I get this I get this this I'm by Myself I see myself in this crumbling Empire Here we are in one Bringing it into gladiator. when did you first encounter this movie? What is your history with this movie specifically? So this movie came out exactly as I was just starting to study the Romans.

So 1999 is when I first started studying and 2000 is when this came out. And so I went with my A-level group to see it and we were 17 years old and like the worst people that you can imagine. Because you know, you have people who have like one small bit of knowledge and therefore they think they know everything. We were those people in the back of the cinema. And I saw it and I thought it was very, very silly and I remember being vaguely hysterical at all of the Latin. And I saw it and I thought it was very, very silly. And I remember being vaguely hysterical at all of the Latin because I had done one whole year of Latin. So obviously. So you're fluent, of course.

Yeah. But in fairness, I still find that very, very funny. And then I just thought it was a very, very silly film that was hilarious for astonishing two and a half hours and then kind of stopped thinking about it. And since then for the past like 25 years have just been sort of making fun of it. Like it's just been, it's consistently funny to do Russell Crowe impressions. And went back and watched it again for this, but this is the first time I've actually seen it since seeing it in the cinema. It was amazing how much I remembered, but I've just been gently feeling bad about how annoying I must have been in 2000 in the cinema.

It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. You're 17. You know, if you're not annoying when you're 17, you are the weird one. Exactly. And I think it deserved the laughter. So it's okay.

Jamie, what's your... Wow. We're so polite. And I think it deserved the laughter, so it's okay. Wow, we're so polite. You go. I had not seen this movie, Bravely. And not because I'm even disinterested in Ancient Rome. Hopefully this isn't a polarizing thing to say, but like in my like public school system, if you were like in advanced classes, they made you take Latin instead of something you could use.

And so and I will always resent because I you know, like really wish I spoke even vaguely conversational Spanish would be so much more useful in my day-to-day life. But instead, I took five years of Latin. And for what? I don't know. I retained very little. I remember how to say stupid boy, fatuas pueri. And that was all I would really say in the class because all the boys in the class were annoying. Well, if you want to learn it in Spanish, it's one way you could say it is please Chico estupido. So Chico and how much more useful would so much my life would just be easier. Anyways, I really did enjoy Latin. And that's why I stayed in the program for five years. And, you know, there were like historical elements to it. We did these very, Emma, have you heard of these,

like these Latin education books? I don't know if they were just in the US, but it was called Eche Romani. Yes, I know it. Yeah, oh my gosh. There is still kind of like a semi-thriving Tumblr culture around Eche Romani because it was like a story. Like I do think part of the reason I didn't leave

the Latin program is because of the story because you're translating like a story about a family who moves from, oh gosh, I wish I remembered their last name, Akira, money hive, don't kill me. But they basically they're on this long journey to Rome. They're like an upper middle class family on their journey to Rome. And then for an entire academic year, they were stuck in a ditch. It was wild. It was all of book two, all of eighth grade. They're stuck in a ditch. It's so shocking. My cousin was two years ahead of me and she's like buckling for eighth grade because nothing happens in Latin in eighth grade. They don't get to Rome until you're in high school. It was like, so the year where they're in the ditch is just ridiculous. Anyways, we learned about Roman history when I was taking Latin, but I just never, as far

as like gladiator goes, this is just like, I see this poster and I'm like, this movie is not for me. I don't know. Historical epics have never really been my thing. You know, hyper mask movies have never really been my thing. You know, hyper-mask movies have never really been my thing. And so when I was watching this for the first time, I felt like, yeah, this is really not my thing. So, and not much changed. However, however, while his, you know, character, which I know is like based in some historical truth,

while Joaquin Phoenix's character is absolutely diabolical, he is so cunty in this movie. He's like... It's awesome to watch. He's such a diva. I love him. So yeah, if for nothing else other than the Joaquin Phoenix performance, I, you know, it was watching Joaquin Phoenix. I just didn't know there was a famous movie where Joaquin Phoenix killed Dumbledore. So that was interesting. The Joke Man kills Dumbledore. Joker killed Dumbledore. And if that's not a hot topic sentence, I don't know what is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it was, I don't know, it wasn't for me, but I am very excited to talk about it because it feels like such straight guy porn. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Katelyn, what's your history with Gladiator?

I saw it in high school. I don't think I saw it in theaters, but when it like came out on DVD My friends and I got together for a little sleepover and we watched it and as far as like appealing to my sensibilities It does for me more than I think it does for you, Jamie But for some reason I never revisited it and I like kind of remembered nothing about it And also I didn't learn anything about ancient Rome in any history class I ever took.

There was probably like three days where they're like, hey, remember Julius Caesar? He did this thing. So I know almost nothing to the extent where I thought that Caesar was a last name and not like a title. Niamh It's both. Karly What? Niamh I'm so glad you're here.

Karly But they all say like, you're a Caesar. So that's a that's their last name, but it's also their title? Niamh That's his name. Yeah. So his name is Gaius Julius Caesar. So it's his last name. Karly Okay. Niamh And then it becomes a title after his heir makes it into a title, basically. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And then you get to be a Caesar and then it like loses all of its name meaning and just becomes

a title eventually. So it's both. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. So glad you're here. So glad you're here. Because they use Caesar as if it's a title in this movie. So I was like, oh, I thought that Caesar was the last name, but I guess it's been a title this whole time. But okay, that makes more sense. They were also using it very incorrectly in this movie. Oh, is this movie historically inaccurate? The thing that stuck out to me right away and watch me be dead wrong is Lucilla's clothes, they felt

very mall coded to me. Yeah. They look, they wouldn't look that out of place in a like 2000s like nice party for women who are married to accountants. Right, like extraneous ribbons, like a lot of like kind of unflattering fabric. You're just like, hmm, it's looking polyester. Yeah, that's one of my things is when people use like really fine, like diaphanous, floaty fabrics in Roman things, you're like, how do you think they're making those?

Right. That is machine made. Look at it. But they love a diaphanous fabric when they're putting things on film. But yeah, it looks, also really did not look that expensive compared to how much they spent on Joaquin's fancy robes. Oh yeah. I've clad you, okay, because I was like, maybe I just don't know, but it was like, this is cruel of me to say, but it was kind of reminding me of the costume design in iFrankenstein.

It felt very like iParty. Yeah, Party City vibes. So anyway, I had only seen this movie once before, although I did when I went to Rome in 2019, I think it was. Bragg. Am I the only person here that hasn't been to Rome? Maybe. Wow. Shame on you, Jamie. I did a tour, like a walking tour around the city of Rome that was called Feminist History

of Rome. So it was a tour that told events of ancient Rome through a feminist lens. And I was the only person on the tour. It was me and the tour guide. So it was like a very, I was just the only person who signed up for it. So it was a very personal, it was basically a date. And the tour guide had some pretty like, swerfy opinions about things and like, was saying things that were like, disparaging of sex workers and so I did complain about it. I wrote my little review and I was like, um, get rid of all the swerf rhetoric, but otherwise

it's a fun tour. So I learned a little bit at the time. Did I retain any of that information? Sure didn't. So I couldn't say, but I enjoyed watching this movie. It's, I think better than I remembered. Not because it's not like, wow, this is like so well written and well performed, but it is entertaining. I feel like the movie does what you as entertain Russell Crowe's character is encouraged to do which is like get the crowd on your side and I feel like me the crowd was on the side

of the movie. I had a good time watching it is what I'm saying but there's lots to talk about. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back for the recap. Is your country falling apart? Feeling tired, depressed, a little bit revolutionary? Consider this, start your own country. I planted the flag. I just kind of looked out of like, this is mine, I own this. It's surprisingly easy. There are 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Everybody's doing it.

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Can you believe we have a whole bunch of wicked episodes coming up? Oh, I can't wait to share all of these amazing episodes with the readers, ktis, publicists, and finalists. That's right. We're talking all things behind bringing this iconic musical to the big screen. And of course, we're taking you inside the world of this epic movie

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And we're back. Okay. So here's the recap of Gladiator. I will place a content warning at the top here for sexual violence and incest. Okay, so we open on text on the screen, reading that at the height of its power, the Roman Empire was vast, stretching from Africa to England.

A quarter of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Caesars, which is a title and a last name. I now know. Wait, I want to say, Emma, fact check. Is the stuff at the beginning true? Um, yes, it is. This is the height of the throne, which kind of makes it funny that they're all very convinced that this is also the end, but this is what's called the High Empire. This is the best of times for the Roman Empire. It's size-wise, it's at its peak and they're only fighting wars now that they are deliberately getting themselves into in order to conquer other people. So this is what is called the High Empire. Kite Although the text frames it very differently,

where it's like, Rome is awesome. And they're just trying to kill these barbarians so that they can finally have peace throughout the Empire, which is awesome. Kite The values of the movie are very bizarre with regards to that, where it's like they're not avoiding the issue of slavery entirely and the movie has like some empathy, but then also they're like, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's all about the Roman project.

And you're like, ooh, I don't know about that. Yeah, so the rest of the text, and I rewrote it and reframed it to this which is so it's the year 180 AD Emperor Marcus Aurelius has been fighting against the barbarian tribes in Germania for I think 12 years now but there's one final stronghold that the Roman Empire is trying to Roman Empire is trying to conquer to uphold its imperialism. So we cut to Germania. We meet Maximus, that's Russell Crowe. He's the general of the Roman army that is readying for battle with the Germanic army. Overseeing all of this is Emperor Marcus Aurelius played by Richard Harris of Dumbledore fame.

The battle takes place and the Roman army is victorious thanks to Maximus being so good at war. So good at war. So good. We then meet Marcus Aurelius' son and daughter, Commodus played by Joaquin Phoenix, and Lucilla played by Connie Nielsen. They are on their way Okay. So they are real people. Commodus really was the emperor. Lucilla really was his sister, one of a minimum of 12 siblings that he had. Wow.

And she really did hate him. And she did also really try to kill him. Good for her. Actually, because he made her marry a man that she thought was beneath her status, and she took it as an insult. Oh. So she's just lairs elitist. Yeah. Well, so your brothers shouldn't decide who you marry to be sure. No, but you know, I mean, everyone in these imperial families, I'm sure was pretty trash. Yeah. And then I read that real life comedists had Lucilla. He ended

up having her executed, right? He had her like maroons on an island. Yeah, exiled to an island, very nice island, but an island and then he had her executed on the island. Yeah, due to the murder attempt. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about the ending of this movie because it seems just like made up. Okay, so yeah, Commodus is very slimy. He's scheming. He is expecting to be his father's successor. Lucilla, meanwhile, the main thing we learned about her, at least in the beginning, is that she's horny for Maximus, and it's implied that they had a love affair at one point. You're like, well, yeah, I guess what else will we learn about a woman? A woman. Yeah, the one thing that we ever learn about.

So Maximus asks Marcus Aurelius if he can be released so that he can return home to Spain to see his wife and his son, who he hasn't seen in nearly three years. It's so John Wick. It's so wife and flash. But she's like, Oh, hi, all you ever see her do is like wave and smile and be dead. Yeah. Her and not have a name. I was blown away. That she does not have a name. She was blown away that she does not have a name. She doesn't speak. Couldn't be bothered. She also has access to a hair curler.

We learned at the end. Yeah, she's got a crimper. And so Marcus Aurelius is like, yeah, yeah, you can go home soon. But first, I just want to say that I feel like the Roman Empire has kind of gotten out of hand. Maybe I did too much war. So Maximus, I want you to be the next emperor and for you to give power back to the people of Rome and to end all the corruption." Yeah, he's like, don't worry, I didn't write this down anywhere.

As a man who notoriously never wrote anything down. Definitely doesn't have a still best-selling book. And Maximus is like, hard pass, no thank you. And Marcus Aurelius is like, exactly that's why it needs to be you and not my power hungry piece of shit son, Commodus. And Maximus is like, okay, I'll think about it. Then Marcus Aurelius goes to Commodus and tells him that Commodus is not going to be the emperor. Instead, it'll be Maximus. And Commodus does not like this. So he suffocates his father to death.

This scene is good. Sorry. It's like, I mean, this is like fathers as well as sons. This is good. It's both. Yeah. That scene is awesome. He's like, Joaquin's like crying his eyeliner off. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Comedist is like, hey, Maximus, bad news, my father died of natural causes. But Maximus can tell that Marcus Aurelius has been murdered. And he tries to alert a couple senators. But before he can, Commodus orders Maximus to be taken away and executed. So a few soldiers ride Maximus into the woods and are about to murder him but Maximus fights back and kills all of his

captors because again he's so good at war. So then Maximus takes a couple horses and returns to his home in Spain only to discover that it's been burned and his wife and son were killed, clearly at the instruction of Commodus. Maximus is obviously devastated, and he is then abducted by enslavers. He meets another person who had been captured, Juba, played by Jaman Honsu, and they are taken to a market of some kind in the town of Zoukabar in a Roman province that is now located in present day Algeria. There an enslaver named Proximo, played by Oliver Reed, who I believe passed away during the production of the movie. I feel like the casting of Oliver Reed, I learned, says everything you need to know

about this movie's respect for women. Oh, I don't know about this, so I'll have to learn. Put a pin in it. But yeah, I didn't know that he died during the production of this movie, but once I read that I think it's the halfway mark of the movie because I just had the Wikipedia in front of me. And once you know, it is very obvious that he died mid-production. There's a lot of like they CG him in at some points.

Yeah. They use body doubles like he didn't really finish the shoot. Yeah. A lot of it is like they had to CGI him, spent a lot of their budget on CGI and all of a read into digital and couldn't change. Yeah. Very bleak, very bleak. But as we'll discuss later, he was a terrible person and I'll say it. I don't think we're worse off without him. Mm hmm. Okay.

Anyways, this character Proximo purchases Maximus, Juba and others to be gladiators who will fight and likely die for the entertainment of others. The enslaved gladiators start to train, but Maximus refuses to participate, so none of the people know how good he is at fighting yet. But then it's time for the first gladiator battle in an arena. It's like, I don't know, 10 versus 10 people or something. And Maximus and Juba, who are chained together, kick ass and they're the last ones standing plus this tall dude named Hagen. Meanwhile, back in the city of Rome, Emperor Commodus arrives, although some people are like, boo, you suck, and you serp.

Haha, get it? Anyway, Lucilla, no one liked my joke. Lucilla. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. So then Commodus and Lucilla arrive together. She greets her young son Lucius. So we meet him. Then a senator named Gracchus played by Derek Jacobi is like, hey Commodus, here's a bunch of things you have to do to fix the city and

Commodus is like, ooh, no, thank you. And he would rather dissolve the Senate and have 150 days of games to honor his father. L! Which is more days than they had when they opened the Coliseum, so that's a lot of games. A lot of games. L! Emma, is this based in anything? No, this is entirely imaginary. This is like a fundamental misunderstanding of the Senate in quite a fun way. The fact that they keep saying that the Senate are like representatives

of the people is hilarious, given that the whole of Roman history is the Senate oppressing the people. Like explicitly saying, we are not the people and you're not allowed any say in anything for about a thousand years. Tight, tight, tight, tight. Yeah. So very, very funny that they're like as representatives of the people we should be ruling. And then, yeah, no. Also the whole idea that Marcus Aurelius didn't like games and like banned them and that's why Proximo is like off in Algeria instead of in Rome is very funny.

But 150 days of games is so many days of games. Six months of games. so many days of games. That's six months of games. Half a year, yeah. God. Anyway, so this is Commodus' idea to just have a big fun festival in Rome. And Lucilla, Gracchus, and a few other senators are like, oh no, Rome is doomed now that Commodus is in charge. So back in Zuckabar where Maximus is, or I don't know if they've traveled somewhere else anyway,

it's not super clear, but he is like gaining a reputation as this like powerful gladiator. He is now known as the Spaniard and he's in another gladiator fight. It's him versus six men, I think. He kills all of them, of course. Niamh. Because he's so good at war. He's the best at war. That's the one where he cuts a guy's head off with two swords at the same time.

Like, so good at war. Yeah. So good. I mean, it's fun to watch him be good at war. Yeah. So good. I mean it's fun to watch him be good at war. So then Proximo tells Maximus that the new emperor is doing all these games in Rome and that Maximus could compete there and be great but he'll need to learn how to like get the crowd to love him because that's how you really win.

And Proximo reveals that he used to be a gladiator, and he was able to win his freedom. So now Maximus is like, hmm, I'm gonna try to do that. Maximus, Juba, Proximo, and other gladiators travel to Rome. They marvel at the city and the Colosseum. Maximus has a brief encounter with Lucilla's son Lucius, who has heard tell of this Spaniard and is rooting for him. Such an overwritten, goofy scene. He's like, hello, am I the young boy you're looking for? Sure, they just let the heir apparent loose, I'm sure. And so then it's time for the first gladiator battle in the Coliseum that Maximus will participate

in. It's him plus a dozen or so men on his side, and he kind of assumes his role as army general again, and he tells them to fight together so that they'll have a better chance at survival. Then a bunch of warriors on chariots come out, a couple of whom are, whoa, whoa, whoa, women? But they die along with all of the other warriors because Maximus and his army of gladiators defeat the other team, and the crowd is living, laughing, loving it. Emma. Would women have been in the Colosseum fighting? Yes, they would.

Awesome. Hell yeah. They did. And they did have women fighting on chariots as well. We have evidence of that. So yes. Look at that. That rocks.

Nothing else about this is reasonable. Although this is a real, like the battle reenactment thing that they're doing that is a real battle against Hannibal in the Second Punic War that is like one of the great victories of Roman history. You do feel like this is maybe where they could have taken some of the budget from recreating Oliver Reed's face and put it into extras and put more than like eight people in their battery enactment. Because it does look a bit like a little sparse. Yeah, it's a little bit sparse in there. But I feel like they fixed this with the second one. Right, right. Yeah. Okay, so then after this big victory, comedists approaches this Spaniard wanting to meet him, obviously

not realizing who it actually is. And Maximus removes his helmet and he says, my name is Inigo Montoya Maximus Decimus Meridius. You killed my wife! Prepare to die! And it seems like Commodus is about to have Maximus struck down and killed, but the crowd starts cheering for Maximus to live. So Commodus lets Maximus live and he walks away. But Commodus is pissed. Commodus' reaction is so funny. He's such a baby. He's like, no, this friggin stinks. I thought he was dead. Why is he still alive?

They like a gladiator more than me. I don't get it. I also love that part of his speech to his dad. I mean, it's like heartbreaking in some ways, but he's such a baby where he's like, all the things you value in a person is not like, I'm brave, just not in the traditional way you would associate being brave. I'm brave. And yours is like, oh, he's such a little baby.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll discuss further. But that night, Lucilla pays Maximus a visit. He doesn't trust her. He thinks she's in cahoots with her brother, but she's like, no, I hate my brother. I'm trying to help you. And I want you to meet with Senator Gracchus, who's like the Bernie Sanders of the Roman Senate. I don't know. Karly I was really unclear on what his whole deal was. Jess Not sure. Samar That's right. So I think that he is supposed to just be like a representative of, so have you ever seen I, Claudius, the BBC TV show, I, Claudius?

No. There's no reason why you can't see it. We've only seen I, Frankenstein. I, Tanya, I, Frankenstein, but that's about it. The classics. Yeah. So there is a very famous BBC adaptation of the Robert Graves book, I, Claudius, which has Derek Jacobi in it as Claudius and he's like the one good man in Rome. And it's huge, it's got like Brian

Blessed in it, it's got Patrick Stewart with hair in it, it's like a real big like institution in British television and film history. And Ridley Scott obviously is British, so he has specifically cast Derek Jacobi in this role because he is like the face of like good Rome to pretty much everyone in the entirety of Britain. So people who had seen that would know the context of... Exactly, and you would be like, this is Derek Jacobi, he's like the good guy. It doesn't really matter, well, anything else about him.

We just know that in this context, Derek Jacoby is always the good guy. And then he has this name which is also associated with fighting for people's rights. So he's basically like, I've cast Derek Jacoby, I've given him the name Gracchus, I don't need to do anything more than that. You can just assume. Yeah, and everyone will know. Everyone will know. Yeah.

Clearly, I mean, Caitlin and I knew immediately. We definitely knew. We got it. Yeah. I feel like you might have been making some assumptions about how many people outside of England had seen iClaudius, but I think that maybe Ridley Scott makes a lot of assumptions. It's just that, yeah, like how much people, the average person knows about the Roman Empire, which feeds directly into the meme of last year, where apparently it's on a lot of people's minds. But I just, I'm not among them.

Yeah. Okay. So Lucilla has paid this visit to Maximus and he doesn't trust her. So he's like, leave here, never come again and forget I even exist. So she leaves. The next day is another gladiator battle where Maximus fights the only undefeated gladiator in all of Rome, Tigris of Gaul. And it's clear that Commodus had like rigged this battle because like tigers are released into the arena to attack Maximus. But Maximus is so good at war, even with tigers. Doesn't matter. So he defeats them because he's just that good.

Commodus and Maximus have another like face to face where Commodus tries to get a rise out of Maximus and insults his wife and son. But Maximus is like, I'm cool, baby. I'm just biding my time until I get a good chance to kill this motherfucker. Cut to Commodus again being like, stop. Stop it.

Stop. Yep. So meanwhile, Maximus's former servant when he was like general of the army, Cicero, comes to see him and Maximus has Cicero tell Lucilla that he changed his mind and wants to meet with Senator Gracchus after all. So they meet and Maximus wants Gracchus to help him stage a coup to overthrow Commodus via Maximus's army of like 5,000 men who are currently stationed in some nearby city. And once Maximus has killed Commodus, he will

leave and give the power back to the people of Rome to honor the wishes of Marcus Aurelius. STACEY And offer that people are famously good for. Take a sword for it. I mean, obviously so much about this movie is unbelievable, but it made my stomach turn because I was like, don't trust him. Don't trust him. They don't mean it. JAIME TARDY Okay, so then, Comedus has Gracchus arrested, and so Maximus has to fast track his plan to leave and go get his army that night.

And Lucilla gives him a little goodbye kiss on the lips to send him off. But Commodus suspects Lucilla is betraying him. So he threatens to kill her son Lucius unless she tells him everything, which she presumably does, because then an army comes after Maximus and captures him as he's trying to leave the city. So then, Commonus claims Lucius as his own son. He tells Lucilla basically that he will rape her so as to get an heir to the throne. So the stakes are very high. Yeah, we'll talk about that whole speech. It's so thoroughly evil where he's like, think about taking your own life.

I'll kill your son. And you're just like, ah, ah, the stakes are high and he needs to die right now. So then commonists challenges Maximus to a fight to the death in the Coliseum in front of all of Rome, but not before he stabs Maximus in the back, giving him a big boo-boo so that Commodus has the advantage in this battle. So the fight begins and Commodus is a better fighter than I expected because it makes it seem like, oh, I've never been on the battlefield. So I'm like, he probably can't even wield a sword, but he's kind of better than I thought.

But he still does lose when Maximus stabs him in the throat, but Maximus is losing a lot of blood. And so he's like knocking on death's door. But he tells this army dude named Quintus who had betrayed Maximus earlier in the movie, so I don't know why he's good again, but he tells Quintus to free the enslaved gladiators to reinstate Senator Gracchus, who presumably will give the power back to the people of Rome. LESLIE KENDRICK Yeah, because he said so.

STACEY KAPLAN Which, again, the senators famously did. And then Maximus collapses, dies, and reunites with his wife and son in the afterlife. And the movie ends with Lucilla, Lucius, Juba, Gracchus, and others carrying Maximus's body out of the Coliseum. The end. Yeah, I like it's so corny. But when Jupe is like, not yet, not yet. I was like, Whoa, whoa, it makes me think. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Is your country falling apart?

Feeling tired, depressed, a little bit revolutionary? Consider this. Start your own country. I planted the flag. I just kind of looked out of like, this is mine. I own this. It's surprisingly easy. There are 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Everybody's doing it. I am King Ernest Emmanuel. I am the Queen of La Donia.

I'm Jackson I, King of Capriberg. I am the Supreme Leader of the Grand Republic of Montonia. Be part of a great colonial tradition. Well, why can't I create my own country? My forefathers did that themselves. What could go wrong? No country willingly gives up their territory. I was making a rocket with the black powder,

you know, with explosive warheads. Oh, my God. What is that? Bullets. Bullet holes, yeah. We need help! We still have the off-road portion to go. Listen to Escape from Zakistan. And we're losing daylight fast. That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan on the iHeart Radio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stephen McFarland, therapist, life coach, change agent, who helps everyone from celebrities, athletes to ex-gang members through their addictions and help them wake up. In each episode by podcast, we hear inspirational stories, we draw lessons from those who have made it through their addiction and recovery to a better place, including legendary boxer, heavyweight boxing champion Mike Tyson. I feel like there's always been a calling for you, something higher.

I don't know, I always feel that way as well. But I guess everybody feels they're here for a reason. Yeah, okay. Even if it's to suffer, to help other people understand suffering is not as bad as we believe it is. I believe everybody learns from each other. And why are you here, you think? To show people that, you know, anything's possible

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Oh, I can't wait to share all of these amazing episodes with the readers, caddies, publicists, and finalists. That's right, we're talking all things behind bringing this iconic musical to the big screen. And of course we're taking you inside the world of this epic movie with all the exclusive details you won't hear anywhere else. It's Wicked in a way you've never heard before. Don't miss it! And be sure to go watch Wicked in theaters starting November 22nd. Listen to Las Culturistas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire,

join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards.

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What stuck out to you more than anything? More than anything, one, the amount that they talk about the idea of Rome just really sticks out to me. They talk about it as a dream, as an idea, as a vision of something, and they're never specific in any way about what this is, just that it is kind of non-specifically good and involves the people. And what is happening now is non-specifically bad, but they just, there's constantly all of these very pompous lines about like, once there was an idea of Rome and it was just an idea, you had to whisper it and it has been blown away because people have said it too loudly and you're like,

I have genuinely no idea what you're talking about. I don't know that you know what you're talking about, but that idea, like they're constantly talking about like this dream of Rome or idea of Rome, which I've just seen Megalopolis and they do the exact same thing. So that really stuck out to me. I still haven't seen it. Near enough. If you've seen Gladiator, you're not too far away from the sheer, just wild ride that is, but they do the same thing where they just talk about the idea of Rome constantly without ever saying what it is.

And also just how incredibly straight it was. It's just, I think I said to somebody, it's a movie about boys and their relationship with other boys, for boys. There's no women. There's not even any, like all of their relationships are so straight. Like there's not even anything. Like how do you make men who are nearly topless in skirts with their legs out sweating and covered in blood fighting, not sexy at all. Like how have you made it this heterosexual?

Top Gun made it sexy, but this movie didn't make it sexy. No, I don't. I mean Ridley's got to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm like he does not make sexy movies. He really doesn't. Not especially. I can't really think of one. I think maybe he's tried to, but I can't think of a Ridley Scott movie

that I'm like, that movie was hot. It's not really his like. No, he's unbelievably good at taking the sex out of stuff. Which is a shame, because like you're saying, I'm like this, I tried to look back on the like original marketing of this movie It is like being pretty explicitly marketed to men which feels like Even if you're going with the straight washing of the marketing campaign

It feels like a big missed opportunity to not be like marketing Look at this movie full of sexy guys fighting like yeah, this movie should have been marketed to everybody But it's so like caught up in its like hyper-masculine agenda and going back to your first point, I was also sort of like, I don't know, the politics of this movie to me were so confusing because it like has a clear interest in showing, you know, at least some range of like oppression and privilege privilege, but absolves Rome from that.

Whereas is Rome not responsible for that? I just found the whole, they've vagified the idea of Rome so much because it's like, if you talked about it too much, wouldn't it make it seem like a pretty evil imperial project, but we're not supposed to think that? Like, I don't know. Yeah, it is a big and evil imperial project. So like, from the very beginning when they're like fighting the German barbarians who were

just hairy in order to have peace. One, Romans don't want peace, they never want peace. And two, like, it's a war of expansion, that's a war of aggression by the Romans. Yeah, taking land, killing people needlessly. Yeah, almost all their wars are wars where they turned up and just murdered people until they took all of their land. So them being like, ah, this is the glory of Rome. Like, yes, Marcus Aurelius, this is the glory of Rome, this is exactly...

No one has ever seen the column of Marcus Aurelius, this is the glory of Rome, this is exactly... No one has ever seen the column of Marcus Aurelius, but he did make a big column that depicted all of his wars. And it's literally just Marcus Aurelius and his empire and his imperial army stamping on the faces of German people. And they're pretty explicit. And it has, if you can Google it and look and see how much they really love showing themselves fighting and stamping and oppressing people, and they really like imagery of the people that they have conquered looking sad, like really sad. So they can't be explicit about what the actual dream of Rome is because it is conquering people who aren't Roman and then killing them and then making them fight for fun.

Right. In this movie, it just seems like it's coasting on vibes, kind of, and coasting on the osmosis idea of what ancient culture was like versus any interrogation of what it actually was like. Because it's weird. You still get the feeling based on how he's framed that Maximus, at the end of the day like liberated people, but he really just liberated like 10 guys. Yeah. Like the 10 guys he knew.

Right. He's like, wait, please release my friends and then continue the Imperial project. Goodbye. Like that is what he does at the end, right? Like I don't know. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Everything else is fine, yeah.

Real quick, I didn't even make the connection when I said Top Gun, but that's directed by Tony Scott, which is Ridley Scott's brother. Oh my God. Tony Scott's making the horny boy movies, and then Ridley Scott's making the sexless boy movies. Well, that's the thing about brothers are brothers. There's one horny one and one not horny one. Right, right, right, right boy movies. Well, that's the thing about brothers and brothers. There's one horny one and one not horny one.

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, that's just the time-honored trope. Right. I mean, this movie is basically a story about two men, one who is evil because he's power hungry and has a fragile male ego. So at least the movie does like villainize those characteristics. But then it's like, but the other guy is good because he's so good at war and helping the Roman army to expand their empire by murdering and stealing land. But the movie frames it

as like, no, he's good because he has honor and he actually rejects imperial rule and he wants to give power back to the people and it's like first of all that wasn't even his idea. No, he just gloms onto that because someone offers it to him. Also, he's the only person that does any murdering in this film, like the amount of innocent gladiators who are also enslaved, who is just doing their job, that he murders brutally and then shouts at everybody. He's the only guy that does any actual, like, real nasty killing.

Karly He does crimes. Lyle And he's framed as, like, an organizer, but I'm not really seeing the vision for what he's up to. It kind of reminded me, the Joaquin Phoenix character, which I was like, based on a guy, but is a character, reminded me of, it's not quite, but like how we used to talk a lot about like the patriarchy of the guy kind of trope,

where it's like, there's one character who's so super evil that you kind of don't notice or seriously consider what the other characters are doing because this is the most evil guy of all time. He is like not just an imperial piece of shit. He also is oppressing his sister who we're supposed to like. He's also like he killed his father who we're supposed to like. But because he's like oppressing these people we're supposed to like we're not thinking

about what the other people are doing and what their goals are because Joaquin Phoenix is so, like he literally in a few scenes was like reminding me of Maleficent. Like he's going for it. He's like Diva villain and he's great at it, but I feel like it almost sort of like makes it easy to like yada yada away what everyone else is doing

because we have to kill the worst guy. Yeah. And the best guy is Maximus because he's the other guy. The other guy that's in it and he's nice and simple and the Wacky Phoenix has got too many fancy clothes on. Right. And all all Maximus wants is just to go back home and see his wife. Unnamed.

Unnamed wife. She could be anybody. She has no characteristics other than being married to Maximus. None whatsoever. This is something that comes up with, I mean, we need to talk about Juba as like a whole other discussion, but the friendship that is established between Maximus and Juba. I'm on board on paper, but the way that they bond is so vague, where like, Juba's like, my family is alive and Maximus is like, whereas mine is dead.

That's all they talk about. There's no, even like from a writing standpoint, how many opportunities are there in the space of that scene to give a specific example of like something about my family that I miss, that Juba could connect with or like whatever it is, but they're just like, me wife alive, me wife dead. No names, no descriptions, no reason as to why,

I mean, they seem like they both married for love, but we don't even know, we can't be sure. No, the most we get is Maximus saying, my son likes to ride ponies. The end. Really good, really good. Really good stuff. Best original screenplay.

Well, let me take a little detour and provide some kind of development context, which informs why this story is like historically inaccurate gobbledygook. I wouldn't even call it gobbledygook. So writer David Franzoni traveled across Europe and the Middle East by motorcycle in the early 70s. He says, quote, everywhere I went in Europe, there were arenas. Even as I went east, going through Turkey, I began to think to myself, this must have been a hell of a franchise. And then he read a novel called Those About to Die, which I think is about the Roman Empire?

I'm not even sure. But it gave him the idea for the movie Gladiator. And then he also read Historia Augusta, and from that he chose Commodus. So guys, am I saw you? Recoil in horror. So yeah, please inform. The story of Augusta is like a notorious source. It is probably a novel as far as we are aware. Like we think that it's probably historical fiction and like slightly trashy historical

fiction. Like not Hilary Mantel levels of historical fiction. But yeah, it's basically pretends to be biographies, but it has loads of stuff that's definitely not true in it. But it also has lots of stuff that we don't know whether it's true or not. So reading the history of Augusto is like picking up, I don't know, a Philippa Gregory novel and being like, well, obviously I know about Judas now. So it's like an ancient airport book. Yeah, it really is.

Yeah, it's exactly what it is. Got it. Well, that's what this writer, David Franzoni, used. So I'm glad that he's got all the good stuff. From that he was like, oh, comedists sounds like a good character to like, center and make my villain. And so he, you know, presented this idea to Dreamworks of Shrek fame, of course. And they brought Ridley Scott on board to direct and he signed on because he was shown an image of a painting called, and I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong, but it's an

1872 painting called Police Verso, where it's just like a gladiator fighting in a, I don't know if it's the Colosseum or some kind of battle arena, but it's supposed to portray the Roman Empire in all its glory and wickedness. And Ridley Scott was so captivated by this painting that he was just like, yeah, of course I'll direct the movie. And they're like, well, you don't even know what the story is or anything and he says I don't care I'll do it So he agrees to direct a movie based on a painting that looks like it could be a frame of the movie gladiator So he's on board then another writer John Logan is brought on to do some rewrites and

John Logan is brought on to do some rewrites and we can talk about a change that he made later on but basically Franzoni and Logan completed a second draft of the screenplay in late 98. They started shooting shortly thereafter but Russell Crowe kept being like, oh this script is so undercooked. And there were all these like complaints about the script was always changing during the shooting of the movie. Ridley Scott kept being like, Okay, actors, writers and producers, what do you think? What should happen? Like now he was there just like constantly changing the story. Oh, my god, a lot of lines of dialogue were ad libbed by the actors. I'miamh I'm always blown away hearing stories about gigantic budget movies like this where they're like, it's like day one of a hundred million dollar movie and they're like, so

what should happen? Karly What should we do? Niamh You're like, what? Karly My favorite thing is that the strength and honor thing that Russell Crowe keeps saying is him misremembering his own school motto. Really? Yeah. That's so funny.

He just felt like they should have something that they say. So he was like, I'm going to do my school motto. And that's not what his school motto is. Yeah, his school motto, I think it translated to like truth and virtue or something, but in Latin. Yeah. And then it's like, strengthen honor close enough. So and then okay, more hilarity ensues from this point on because another writer, William Nicholson was brought on to

do another rewrite of the script and he made the Maximus character like more sensitive, I guess he was the one who kind of reworked the friendship between Maximus and Juba. He developed the like afterlife through line that they often refer to. But Russell Crowe didn't like a lot of this writer's dialogue. He called it garbage. And then he was like, I'm the greatest actor in the world, but even I can make garbage sound good. So he's over here being like, I'm the greatest actor of all time. I mean, does he know what his performance in Les Mis is going to be like? They may be a little too close to the sun there.

And then apparently the line where he says like, in this life or the next, I will have my vengeance. He like refused to say that line at first because he thought it was so corny. So it's basically Russell Crowe behaving the way that Joaquin Phoenix's character behaves throughout the entire movie, just being so bitchy and evil. Such divas. Niamh. Apparently it's just been revealed as well in the press tour for Gladiator 2 that Working Phoenix nearly walked off set on day one. He was like, I don't want to do this. I don't like any of you. I don't want to be here.

And Ridley Scott had to beg him to stay and persuade him to stay. So it's just like men's egos smashing into each other for however long it took to shoot this. Oh, boy. Oh, Lord. I mean, and if you look, I just, I had to keep reminding myself as I was watching this movie, I'm like, this is the director of Thelma and Louise.

How? It doesn't make sense. Like, how does that? I mean, it's Cali-Cori script, that's out, because otherwise you're like clearly left to his own devices. He doesn't know what the fuck he's doing with like, there's too many men. I don't see, let me look down this top line.

I'm saying that there was a co-composer who is a woman. That is the only woman I'm seeing in this like top creative line. It is fellas all the way down. Also just a quick side note, Caitlin I know you're a Hans Zimmer stan. However, this man loves to self-plagiarize himself. This is the score to Pirates of the Caribbean.

The Pirates of the Caribbean, yes! You're like, think of another riff, you hack! Unbelievable! Right, so I guess it was him plagiarizing himself when he wrote the pirates. He's like, oh, probably these, and it's true. I didn't see Gladys. I didn't know. I didn't know. Mm hmm. Well, now we know. Hack, fraud. Isn't he like one of those composers that like kind of does it in a factory way

too? I think so. I can't really speak to it just because I don't know. The main thing is that I did see him in concert one time and it wasn't even him it was like his orchestra so he wasn't even there But it was his music Anyways, anyways, yeah, he was self-plagiarizing hard and pirates didn't even know. I yeah, I had the same thought You're like what? Right, so well, let's talk about the women that are on screen, all two of them. So, Maximus' his wife, who never gets a name as we've mentioned, she is majorly fridged. For any listener who

is unfamiliar with that term, it's come up on the show from time to time. But if this is your first episode, for example, fridging is a term that was coined by Gail Simone in the late 90s. It refers to a trope where characters who are women face disproportionate harm, violence, assault, death to serve as plot devices generally to motivate characters who are men. And this is like happening to Ati in the case of the wife of Maximus. And I foreshadowed this earlier, but one of the credited writers, John Logan, who made some changes to the script, one of the changes he made was that Maximus's family would be killed off to motivate Maximus's desire for revenge.

So that was his choice. But yeah, as we said, we only see his wife in a few flashbacks. She has no lines of dialogue. We don't know her name. She looks like she's about to go to prom 1998. Like, it's like so bizarre. Niamh. She looks like she's about to go to prom 1998. So bizarre. Why wouldn't we have a flashback where she and Maximus are interacting and speaking to

each other and doing anything to characterize her? Weirdly, we only have flashbacks to a scene where he's not there. They repeatedly flashback to the scene where they're killed. Right. Consistently he's remembering a time when he wasn't there, so he doesn't even remember meeting her, the birth of their child, their wedding day, any of the wonderful experiences that they must have had together because he loves her so much. He just imagines her being killed basically and looking happy in the moments before that. Yeah, the wind is blowing through her hair and she's beautiful. In addition to the severe undercharacterization and the fringing of his wife, I also was noticing

so much of, even with Lucilla, all of the relationships to women, it's almost without exception told and not shown. Like we learn when Lucilla is talking to Caesar at the beginning, she's like, we have a complicated relationship, but we love each other. And you're like, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I guess like I'm not really seeing it.

He has minutes to live, but sure, I guess we're just gonna have to take your word for it. The relationship between Maximus and Lucilla, they're like, we used to date and it was complicated. I'm like, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it because this is all I'm getting for this. The only like relationship we are shown is the most predatory relationship between a man and a woman because we are explicitly shown comedists is behavior towards Lucilla, the elements of incest, the oppression, the threats of violence, all of that were shown.

But any affectionate relationship with a woman is you're just told it happened at some point off screen. For sure. Except for the bit where Marcus Aurelius says, I wish you were a boy. That's the only affection that he shows. If you were a boy, this would be much better. I agree. Karly, I agree.

So yeah, this is a line that happens pretty early in the movie where Marcus Aurelius approaches Lucilla and says, if you had only been born a man, what a Caesar you would have made. You would have been strong, but would you have been just? And I feel like that is what the movie is trying to do with her character for the rest of the movie, because there's like different moments where we're not sure if she can be trusted, if she is on her brother's side, or if she's going to do the right thing and like try to get him out of power, that kind of thing. I will say that there are a few moments where she takes action that does impact the story

to some degree where, you know, she sets up a meeting between two men and she does some other stuff probably. But for the most part, yeah, we only ever know her in contexts that are often traumatizing to her or we see her in the context of being the his mother to a son who I believe that's who the sequel will center around is it Lucius is that Paul Mezcal? I think So yeah. Whoa, that's fun.

I'm gonna see it. I'm gonna see it. I wanna see everyone's legs. I hope Ridley Scott learned that we wanna see the legs. Linger on the legs for once. Linger on the legs just a bit. Take the tops off. No one even takes the top off in this.

Like he gets stabbed and they don't take his top off. Not enough nipples for sure. Take a page from your brother's book really and show us the legs. The people want the legs. Yes. So yeah, the women in the movie are, I would say not characterized well, shocking. Or only characterized on the basis of their relationship and oppression with and by men, which is always hard to talk about, especially at a historical piece, because it's like you can't shy away from the reality of that. It's not like you should rewrite history to be like women were

included in equal measure. But there's no respect for her personhood. We just don't know anything about her. So I was curious, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but in this era, in a story like this, what are historically accurate ways that women could have been more meaningfully included in a story like this? Well, even if you just had Lucilla, you could have had her have some agency. She basically just reacts to the people around her. She reacts to commerce, she reacts to Maximus, apart from the bit where she's like grack has come over here. She just is quite reacting to people around her. But there's

like various points where you see her with female attendance and the two lines that she says to somebody who are not a man are just men's names. At one point she says Maximus and the other time she says Commodus is over there. But you could have had some scenes with her talking to these women. She's surrounded by these women and you see her with them. Just put in two or three scenes where she is discussing something with any of her sisters. There's like five of them. We're not being historically accurate. We could have had several of them alive. Or you could just have her talking to her attendants or her friends and just have her be engaged in an intellectual manner

and plotting or having a reaction that is her own reaction and isn't just in the context of her talking to her brother? Or have her talking to somebody who isn't Maximus about what she wants to do? Like why does she want to get rid of her brother? Does she just want to get rid of him because he is threatening to rape her and murder her son? Or does she actually have some feelings about like what her father's plans for the empire are? Like I have no idea. What is her motivation? You could just- Right. Yeah, outside of her own oppression

Yeah, yeah, cuz again really we're told that it feels like very like And also I mean I've only seen it like half asleep at a motel 8 So I would say I haven't really seen the movie the last duel I do think that like Ridley Scott later in his career at least Attempted to address women's role in history a little more thoughtfully than in this movie. But it feels very of the time to, we're just told, oh, you're really smart. Like Dumbledore says, you're really smart.

But we don't really get to see her act on that at any point. But she genuinely did, in history, plot against her brother. She did try to kill him. She was exiled for it. Like show her doing this stuff rather than her just being like a conduit for men doing this stuff. It feels so simple, but I do feel like this period, this film to me feels like it really fits in to that,

like one man is gonna save the world period of films that you've got in in 1999, 2000s, Matrix and Fight Club and all of those films where one guy is gonna come and overthrow all of the things. The chosen one. Exactly. But there's just no shred of satire to this movie at all. It's so earnest.

When you said shred, I thought you were gonna say shrek again. No, shrek. Which brings were going to say Shrek. And which brings me back to my main problem. Okay, wait in Shrek one, remember when he like goes into basically a Coliseum and Oh yeah, they do a gladiator spoof don't they? They kind of do a, wouldn't have been too early because it came out the next year. Probably. So I don't know if they were pulling from it. But Farquaad is like, kill the ogre. And then he is like the gladiator that defeats all of the soldiers. And then he has to go rescue Fiona.

Commodus and Farquaad should be in the same conversation. And it is a cultural failing that they're not. Yes. Being righted right here, right now. Yeah. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Like this is very of the era to have this sort of like one great man narrative and to do it to like justify

some like historically fucked up imperialism. I'm curious, I mean, I know we have other stuff to talk about too, but in terms of like the legacy of gladiator, how big of an influence does it have on like how we think about the Roman Empire, you know, a quarter century later? Huge, I would say. Huge. It comes up constantly, which is why even though I hadn't only seen it that one time, I could have quoted quite a lot of it, like the entirety of the like, I'm the husband of a murdered wife and the father of a murdered son, and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next. Like, and all of the like

hand running through the wheat that goes on for ages and like big chunks that I could have quoted without like ever having seen it because people talk about it a lot like people love it. Yeah. It reignited a lot of that kind of big historical epic stuff and the HBO's Rome comes like not long after this and largely because Gladiator says that we can do big Rome films again after the 60s. And yeah, so it has this huge impact and people talk about it constantly. And when you tell people that you're a Roman historian,

they'll be like, Gladiator, yes. So this is, we're haunting you right now. We're haunting you. Yeah. So this is, we're haunting you right now. We're haunting you. I mean, yeah. It's good though, because it is something that is constantly around, but now it is, because it's coming back to the cinema and he's doing it again, and Ridley Scott now

doesn't have any reins on him at all. He has been allowed to do whatever he likes and he has more computer technology and more money and more men. It's kind of great because who knows what stuff he's going to be able to talk about. There's whole industries in academia that are just talking about all the things that are wrong in Gladiator. They've got another 30 years worth of coming ahead, So it's great really. Thank you Ridley. Yeah, the Roman historians will never be out of work because of how wrong you are.

Yeah, exactly. How little he cares about historical accuracy. It's great. He's done it for the Napoleonic guys now. Oh right! Yeah, because he did Napoleon last year. I humiliatingly saw Napoleon in theaters. You're the only person I know who's seen it. I don't know why I did that. I saw it in cinemas as well. And I laughed so hard. It's so boring. It's so boring!

Yeah, something I lament is that the movie Caligula did not have the same cultural impact as Gladiator. Have you seen Caligula did not have the same cultural impact as Gladiator. Have you seen Caligula? STACEY I am obsessed with the movie Caligula. I have seen the movie Caligula about 50 times. You know you're my real friend when I make you watch Caligula and then I make you choose which cut because I currently own five. STACEY I was like didn't it, they just like re-released one of the cuts in theatres I think.

STACEY This is a new cut, yes, the ultimate cut, which is cut to the original Gore Vidal film with what they, the Gore Vidal script. Wait. Whoa. And yeah, Caligula unfortunately did not have the same impact and you do have to remind people that exists, which is a shame because it's just wild in every cut. Yeah. Could you describe for our listeners in a couple sentences exactly what Caligula the

Movie is? So Caligula the Movie is a 1979 film financed and produced by Bob Gaggioni who owned Playboy, not Playboy, who owned Penthouse magazine and was made with a huge budget in Italy with these huge sets with an arth house director and a Gore Vidal script and has quite an A-list theatrical cast. So it's got Peter O'Toole, Helen Mirren, Malcolm McDowall in it, all of these kind of big names. And then there were some quite intense arguments about the production because it is supposed to be a pornographic film, a high class pornography. Bob Guccione felt that it wasn't pornographic enough, so he filmed his own porn on the sets and edited it in and everybody tried to have

their name taken off of it. And what it ended up with being a very, very expensive mash-up of quite low quality pornography and Peter O'Toole and Malcolm McDowell doing acting. And as a result, it is a truly bizarre watch and endlessly fascinating. Wait, come back and cover it with us. I was like, let's do, please do Caligula. We owe you a Caligula episode for making you do the Gladiator episode. You are owed. I almost saw the new cut in theaters, but I'm like, I think I need to see the original first and then I just, I haven't seen any of it yet.

I don't know which cut I've seen. I would watch the Imperial cut. None of them really make any sense. I will talk about this if you don't stop me. Please do come back like next year to do a Caligula because we've never covered like a pornographic. We've never covered porn. Yeah. And that's a huge oversight on our part.

Yeah. Yes. Short, short sighted and getting back to gladiator gladiator is so unsexy. It's like a proto Marvel movie with the amount of like, it's like aggressively hetero but completely sexless and has everything to do with fathers and sons. Very fathers and sons. I don't really have anything to even say about the, I mean, I guess the only interesting father

and son relationship I, or the one I was interested in was between Caesar and Commodus. Like that was juicy to me. Yeah. And that Caesar's nipping at something interesting by being like, well, he acknowledges that, well, part of the reason you're fucked up is because I was not a good parent to you. Yeah. Which you're like, yeah.

And Commodus is like, you never hugged me, and that's why I suck. That's why I'm a Nazi now. Yeah. It's a little overly simplistic, but I did at least like that there was, but again, it just felt so disjointed in the way, because it's like Caesar is talked about so uncritically by everyone else, but he did fail in this way where he was unable to show his children meaningful affection. He hints at that in that one conversation we get with him and Lucilla to be like, hey, pretend that I'm an awesome dad.

And she's like, ha ha, how funny would that be if you were? So he has failed as a parent. And that is an interesting back and forth to explore of like someone who is like succeeded professionally, but failed personally. But it's just like, even though we know that about him, it really kind of never comes up again. It's more just like we need to honor his legacy. And not that like Commodus's brutality needs to be further contextualized. I like that they included that, though, like that there is at least in this story, some context as to like, why he is so desperate for affection from fucking anybody. And that if he doesn't receive that affection, he will respond with violence and entitlement. he's so over the top was contextualized well, but then it just they don't really do very much with it. You just see him being brutal and

then he dies. Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree that that was I mean that was the most like fully realized narratively as far as the father-son dynamics. There are at least three others that I clocked because there's the Maximus and his father figure, Marcus Aurelius, because, you know, Marcus is like, hey, Maximus, you're the son I never had. And Maximus loves him as a father. And he spends the whole rest of the movie like trying to carry out Marcus Aurelius's wishes for Rome. So there's that. There's Maximus and his son who is killed. And I guess going very briefly back to the his wife of it all, at least it's not just like the woman who is not characterized or not given a name as women and children are uncaring. Yeah. Women and children last.

and children are uncaring. Yeah. Women and children last, said Ridley Scott. Yeah. Ridley Scott watched Titanic, and he said, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to do the opposite. Women and children last. So there's that dynamic, which is just another thing that's

motivating Maximus to get his revenge, the fact that his son was brutally murdered. And then there's Maximus and Lucius who, okay, tell me if I'm way off here, but I feel like the movie was like vaguely kind of implying that maybe Lucius was Maximus's biological son from the affair that he may or may not have had. I couldn't tell if that's what the movie was trying to like hint at or not, but I was like- I think so. Okay. I kept having them be in, like they had so much of their relationship and then

right when they had the meet, it was very much a, a moment of connection between the two of them. He was like, I'll be rooting for you Spaniard. And then now it's revealed, obviously that he is his biological son. Oh, and gladiator too. Yeah. That is confirmed. Yes. It is confirmed. Okay, well. Lucius is the biological child and is going to come back and be given Maximus's sword. Okay. Egg on my damn face. I was like, weird that these two are connecting. That makes turtles. Well, that means that Maximus cheated on his wife then. No, but he loved

her so much! You don't understand! Because they're the same age! They are the same age, so how did that work? He had sex with Lucilla and his wife basically at the same time, so he cheated on his beloved wife. So Maximus is a dog. He's a freaking dog, although maybe, I don't know, monogamy?

Was there polyamory in ancient Rome? No, not with free people, no. I see, I see. And slave people is a different matter, but free people, no. So he's a dog. And definitely not empresses. That's the kind of thing that gets you exiled. Right, exactly. Because women are property. Exactly.

Yeah, so lots of father son dynamics. And then there's also, I would argue, Maximus and Proximo. Oh, sure. There's kind of like a, another like at least mentorship energy between the two of them that is ultimately resolved. Here's where I'll just insert, I feel bad by saying, I'm glad Oliver Reed's dead. That's a little harsh. He did struggle with alcoholism his entire life and I don't want to minimize that. However, he said some of the most vile things about women throughout his life that I've ever heard like was just a lifelong mask off misogynist loved to go on TV and talk about how poorly he thought of women how how, you know, he just was like, I don't know,

his politics were awful. He was like a mask off misogynist going back to the 70s. If you were casting him, it's something you would have known about him already. So just for for what it's worth, I don't mean to minimize his struggle with addiction, but he was an asshole. And I didn't even know that. That was something that like my boyfriend knew off the top of his head. He was like, oh, look at Proximo over here. Yeah, I was like, why did men know so much about Gladiator? But they do.

No, they do. They really do. I would also say that you have Commodus and Lucius as well. He's trying to very much take Lucius under his wing. True, right. Reading to him and teaching him this history. And then when he says he's gonna to very much take Lucius under his wing, and reading to him and teaching him this history. And then when he says he's going to adopt Lucius and have him, he's taking home away.

So there are six. He wants to be his father. There are six father-son possible duos. Between like four men. Yeah, they're all, it's very, they're sharing daddies. And then there's the relationships between men that are not father-son. There's obviously the tension between Maximus and Commodus. There's the friendship between Maximus and Juba. There's just so many pairings of men.

It's infinite. To go to Juba real quick, it feels like a classic example of a Black character who exists solely to serve the story of the white protagonist. That's really all we kind of get with that character. And then to return to Proximo really quickly. So he's this like, he's an enslaver. He is exploiting and profiting off of being this like gladiator guy coach. I don't know. So he's a bad person. But then he has this redemption basically. He's killed, but it's framed to me at least as this heroic, oh he did the right thing because he let one of his enslaved gladiators go and he kind of sacrifices himself for their greater good. And it's just

like, well, why does this like enslaver capitalist get a redemption? Didn't see why that was necessary at all. So yeah, the men, the men in the movie, they're, they're kind of bad. It's just so under thought. This is like revealing what a Brain dead child I was because Jaimon Honsu. I've seen him in a ton of movies over The years he's been in a shitload of things the thing I primarily associate him with though is the fact that he used to be married to Kimura Lee Simmons It would occasionally appear in her reality show Kimura Lee Simmons, but occasionally appear in her reality show, Kimora Lee Simmons, Life in the Fab Lane. Wow, I don't know. And that was where I was like, I've seen this guy, I've seen this guy. And the answer could be so

many things. He's in Marvel movies, he's in, he's the new Shazam. He's been in so much shit. But I was like, oh, he used to be married to Kimra Lee Simmons. And that's my brain rot jumping out. Love it. Life in the fab lane. I don't know what that is. You never will. He's in beauty shop. Never forget.

And as I was looking, I felt like such a loser as I was looking through his IMDB. I was like, I hate that I connected it to probably his randomest credit. Not even an acting credit. Nope, he was just being a husband sometimes on that show. I loved Kimora, Life in the Fab Lane. I love it when a guy is like, I'm the husband you see sometimes. That's sort of my favorite way to see a man on screen.

I mean, he seemed fine with it. I don't think he was in the show very much, which I would avoid as well. Who wants to be on an eReality show when they're already a successful actor? Seems like a lateral move. But anyways, that's my embarrassing admission. But yes, like, he's yet another character who, I mean, I feel like half the time he enters the scene, Juba,

that he's just there to ask, like, hey, how about that dead wife, Maximus? Like that's like kind of it. And be bossed around by Maximus and be his like little sidekick that does as he's told. And yeah, also the only character that we see, like we see much more of his body than we do anybody else. Like you see basically his entire naked butt.

Rue. He's the only man that you see any flesh of, which felt really objectifying in a way that was I would hope you wouldn't get away with now, I guess. But yeah. Right. For your only black character that you get to know. Yeah. Yeah.

And again, it just feels like there is so many, like at a lot of points in this movie, so many opportunities to give more insight into history with the inclusion of his character, give more insight into this character if you don't feel like including history, but they just opt to do like nothing, just vague man platitudes that are only really supporting Maximus's story. I don't know. I also think that there is something too, I meant to look into if there was sort of academic writing to this extent, but just how it seems like, especially like in Western cultures, people are way more comfortable interacting with stories about slavery and slave uprisings when the protagonists are white.

And this feels like it's very much in conversation with that. And so we're a lot of, I mean, I feel like a lot of these, you know, if you go back, older historical epics will very frequently center, like if it's a story about slavery, the protagonist is white. And I think like the implication is, so they'll be easier for you to root for instead of, like if it's a story about slavery, the protagonist is white. And I think like the implication is, so they'll be easier for you to root for instead of, you know, engaging with the West's own history with slavery in any meaningful way. Very true. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to say about gladiator. The last thing I'm gonna say is that the Nazi imagery when Commodus is entering Rome and there are straight-up direct recreations of shots

from Triumph of the Will. Oh wow I did not pick up on that illusion. God yeah which is a very specific thing to be saying about Commodus, making him explicitly a Nazi and explicitly Hitler at that point in his return to Rome. And if you go back and look, you can see everything is regimented, everything is blue, everything looks like Berlin. And there are specific recreations of Triumph of the Will shots, which was a statement. Really cool. Yeah. He's not a subtle man, as a general. Really cool.

He's not a subtle man as a general rule. Or at least Scott. No, no. I know, how many times am I gonna give Ridley Scott a pass because he did ultimately direct Thelma and Louise. We just have to give that to the screenwriter. Anyways, this movie doesn't pass the Bechdel test. No. End of discussion. It doesn't even have two names to women. No, end of discussion. It doesn't even have

to name to women. No. Oh my god. Bleak. Yeah. Yeah. But our nipple scale though is a skill. It'll do way better. It's also low. Very low. It's where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I will give it a half a nipple for the pretty clear indictment of male fragility in the comedist character. Like, that is something that's very clearly displayed, that he has a very fragile male ego and that he's power hungry and those qualities are vilified. So that's pretty much all I can say for the movie. It's as we've said, all of these historical epics almost always center men, women are ancillary characters, their stories

and lives and accomplishments are very rarely the focus. This movie is no exception, but that's why people should read your book, Emma, which we'd love to hear more about in a moment. But yeah, I'm going to give the movie one half nipple. And I will give it to the part where Proximo is like talking to some merchant who had sold him giraffes and he's like the giraffes you sold me won't mate they just walk around and eat you sold me queer giraffes so I'm giving my half nipple to the queer giraffes. Yes. Queer icons. That is as close as we get to queer representation.

And gladiator is the drafts. Iconic. Yeah, I can't learn. I'm going to meet you at half a nipple and I'm, I'm going to even like more give it to the Joaquin Phoenix performance even more than the script because I think that like he, I mean, he's great. And like, it's just, I like that he really leaned into the weepy baby element of like, cause I feel like you could have also played

those same words with a lot of like, how could this be, you know, kind of thing. But he's just like playing it as the like display of kind of pathetic emotion that it is. And I really enjoyed his performance in this movie. And other than that, like, sorry to fans of this movie, I found it quite boring. I was not enjoying myself. I was playing Neopets for part of it. For some of the action scenes I was like, I'm gonna feed my Neopet because that's like the low simmering depression I'm at right now. I'm back on Neopets. I was just gonna say I'm

rather shook that you're playing Neopets at this juncture in time. I at this late stage I am playing Neopets. Neopets, we could talk about another time but Neopets literally taught me capitalism and now I'm back. Like Neopets is capital. I had a mortgage when I was 12 on Neopets. This is exactly why I won't play any of those games. Not that like I'm like we should have more games about capitalism for children, but I think that I learned more about like how money works on Neopets than I learned at school or from my family. I had a bank account, I had a mortgage, and the way that you make money is by playing games. And that's kind of how Gladiator, no, it's not. No, I don't know. I feel like what it is an interesting example of,

and I'm so glad that you were with us, I'm going to give us some accurate historical insight into what this time may have actually been like, is how influential, like when movies like Gladiator are wildly influential, it can take decades and decades to roll back the kind of lazy Hollywoodification of actual history. And that I know like it is a tendency to be like, oh, well like the impact of movies is overstated,

it reflects the culture. That's all true. But also, especially with something this specific, it's like, I mean, it sounds like you've been gladiatoring against gladiator for your entire career. Yeah. It's just wild. As soon as you start writing about gladiators, you have to say, first things first, gladiatorial

games are nothing like gladiator. I think gladiator is the worst depiction of gladiatorial games. And then you just have to dismantle that for ages. But. God. Yeah. fiction and gladiatorial games. And then you just have to dismantle that for ages. But yeah, then you can never actually start making the point you're going to make. Also I really like the part where it's I think his like second gladiator battle in the movie and he like has just killed a bunch of people and the crowd is kind of like lukewarm and then he goes, are you not entertained? And it's like me after every standup show.

I was just, I was about to say that was very like standup coded to me. It was like, ooh, someone's doing bad at the store. Yeah, he basically turned on the crowd, be like, oh, I guess you guys are too, you don't get my references. Okay, you freaking snowflakes. You're like. Yes, anyway. Yeah, so have nipple and I'm going to give it to Joaquin Phoenix's tears.

Beautiful. Emma, how about you? Yeah, I think half nipple is very fair and I'm also going to give it half a nipple. But I'm going to give it also to Joaquin Phoenix's performance, but for a different reason, because I feel like there would have been a real strong temptation to play that role feminized. And with a lot, especially with Roman emperors, you find that they are played as very feminine and effeminate. Kiteadne biggest almost like a queer coding kind of thing. Exactly.

And that is very much what they've done with the second one from what I can see with the trailer but Joaquin Phoenix did not make that decision. He made this decision to play it very masculine and to not make this a queer character or an effeminate character as they have so often. And for that I appreciate him. And I'm specifically going to give it to his cute little white outfit that he wears in his death scene where he looks like a statue. Like his little, yeah,

his little Jesus Christ superstar outfit. Exactly, A plus little outfit. Amazing. Emma, thank you so much for joining. Like I just, I can't imagine like how we would have done this episode without you honestly. We would have been like,

must be pretty historically accurate. As soon done this episode without you, honestly. We would have been like, hmm, must be pretty historically accurate. As soon as this is a documentary, then we'll just go with that. There was one woman in all of Rome. Oh, and that's the only one that ever existed. Yeah, it's amazing how they managed to survive. A Smurf-like society.

Could you tell us a little bit more about your work and where we can find it? Yeah. So I have a book out right now, which is called A Rome of One's Own, which tells the story of the whole Roman Empire from the foundation to the fall of the West through the lives of 21 random, semi-random women, very few empresses. So mostly just women who lived in the Roman Empire at different times and how their lives are affected by war and politics. It's got no battles in it and very few senators.

So it's only fun stuff and no like boring stuff. Hell yeah. And you can buy that in any good bookshop. I also have one about which has gladiatorial games in it called A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, which is about Roman murder and has a whole chapter about gladiatorial games. If you want to know how they really worked, in which I take the piss out of Russell Crowe. And I also have my own podcast which is called History is Sexy, where we answer questions that are sent to us by listeners who would like us to research a question they

have about history that they don't have the time or inclination to research themselves. Amazing. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for joining us. And please come back for Caligula. Please have me back for Caligula. My heart is now set on it. It's done.

I'm so in. It's happening. You can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matreon, where you can get access to two bonus episodes every single month, plus the entire back catalog of over 150 bonus episodes, all on hilarious, amazing, brilliant, genius themes that Jamie and I concoct in our little laboratory. Oh, and you're wondering, are they going to cover hot frosty on the matri on in December?

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Listen to Escape from Zakistan. We need help! That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Beau. Hey, Matt. Can you believe we have a whole bunch of wicked episodes coming up? Oh, I can't wait to share. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Beau. Hey, Matt.

Can you believe we have a whole bunch of Wicked episodes coming up? Oh, I can't wait to share all of these amazing episodes with the readers, ktis, publicists, and finalists. That's right, we're talking all things behind bringing this iconic musical to the big screen. And of course, we're taking you inside the world of this epic movie with all the exclusive details

you won't hear anywhere else. It's Wicked in a way you've never heard before. Don't miss it. And be sure to go watch Wicked in theaters starting November 22nd. Listen to Las Culturistas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max.

You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories,

their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've

been doing all that talking, it's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards.