The Bechdel Cast - Goodfellas

Episode Date: January 2, 2025

As far back as we can remember, we've always wanted to unlock our Matreon episode on Goodfellas. Grab tickets to our upcoming shows + livestreams at linktr.ee/bechdelcastSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you want a shortcut to the best version of you? Here it is. Feed the Good Wolf. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed. Every week I talk to brilliant minds and brave souls about the art of small, powerful choices. Our listeners say it all. This is a lifeline. Transformational.

The best antidote to a bad mood. I've ever heard Join the pack and start feeding your best self Listen to the one you feed on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Attention Bechdel cast listeners a wuga Attention Bechdelcast listeners, a-wooga! It's a tour announcement. Yes indeed we are going back on tour doing three different shows in three different cities Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Portland, Oregon. But if you cannot make it in person we are live streaming both the Los Angeles and Portland shows. Here's the deal. Here is the deal.

In Los Angeles, our show is on January 19th. It is a Bechtel cast celebration where we're going to have past guests do stand up and solo acts. Jamie and myself are going to do stand up. We're going to have fun little chats with our past guests and just have a big celebration of the show in San Francisco. The show is on January 23rd.

It is a part of SketchFest and it is a part of our Shrektanic tour in which we are discussing Titanic ever heard of it. And yes, we have outfits. This is the only show that will not be live streamed. So if you wanna see the Titanic show, you gotta be there in San Francisco. Indeed, and then finally, we have a show in Portland

on January 26th, that is at Curious Comedy Theater, and it is also a Shrek Tannic show, this time about Shrek. And it is also being live streamed. And a little note for our live-stream shows, the Los Angeles and the Portland ones, if you cannot actually watch the show as it is being live-streamed,

you can still buy a ticket and have access to the stream for a week afterward. So if you don't live in those areas and you wanna see the show, you still have plenty of access to the shows. So please, if you can't make it to see the show, you still have plenty of access to the show. So please, if you can't make it to a live show, get a live stream ticket. It'll still be a blast. And if you are there at a live show, we always do meet and greets and have exclusive merch

at the shows. We love going on tour and we love seeing y'all. So we hope to see you there. And you can grab tickets at Linktree slash Spectalcast for all of those shows, the tickets to the live in-person shows, as well as the live streams. So Linktree slash Spectalcast, and we will see you there. Bye.

Did you know that 70% of people get hired at companies where they already have a connection? I'm Andrew Siemen, LinkedIn's editor at large for jobs and career development. And on my podcast, Get Hired, I bring you all the information you need to, well, get hired. Landing a job may be tough, but Get Hired is here for you every step of the way with advice on resumes, networking, negotiation, and so much more. Listen to Get Hired with Andrew Seaman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you like to listen. The forces shaping markets and the economy

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People, my people, what's up? This is Quetzalove. Man, I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Quetzalove Supreme. Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season, but I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations we've had so far. I mean, we talked to A. Marie, Johnny Marr, E. Jonathan Schechter, Billy Porter, and so many more. Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, Porter, and so many more. Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance. You've got to check them out.

Listen to Questlove Supreme on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the PectoCast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello Bechdel Cast listeners. 2025.

How bad could it be? Let's find out. Happy New Year, everybody. We're here to say hello from the present and take you back to the somewhat recent past. Because to start off the year, we are unlocking a matriarch episode for you for an episode that a lot of folks who are just on the main feed have been frothing for for some time. It's the Goodfellas episode. We recorded this, well we did it for a theme on the matri on that was called Mob March. Whether or not we did it in March I don't remember, probably not. Honestly very unclear, but that was a month where we covered, I think, two of the most hyper-masculine requests we get.

We did The Godfather and Goodfellas. So if you enjoyed this episode and you wanna hear our thoughts on The Godfather, then you can head over to our matriot at patreon.com slash Bechdelcast. For five bucks a month, you get two bonus episodes. It's the best way to support the show, Caitlin, would you agree?

I would agree, but also another way to support the show is to come to the live shows slash live streams that we have coming up. Maybe you've heard of them, maybe you haven't, but now you have. But they exist. We are doing shows in LA, San Francisco, and Portland. Later in January, tickets are still

available to all the shows. We are doing a special show in LA on January 19th. Jamie, tell them about it. Oh my gosh. OK, so this is sort of a celebration of the show itself. We are having our favorite and your favorite guests from the show who live in the area or are coming through town to do standup or presentations

on their favorite movies. And then we will also be doing bits. We will also, I mean, it's just a celebration of the show because we've never really gotten to do that in the almost 10 years we've been making this show. So if you're in the LA area, we would really love for you to come out and celebrate. And if you don't live in the LA area, you can get live stream tickets on the 19th and watch it for a week after.

That's so true. So that's the LA show. We're very excited for it. We also are doing SketchFest and San Francisco. And this is a part of our Shrek Tanik tour. And here's something that I decided. If this show sells out, I will get naked so that you can draw me like one of your French girls, Jamie.

And I feel like, you know, what is feminism if not meeting your friend where they're at? And so, sure, I have no problem with taking my clothes off. Come to San Francisco if you want to see us naked and it'll be kind of like clear if we don't move tickets from here, how you feel. And that's body shaming. So you have to come to the show.

Actually, it's insulting to us. It's pretty violent if you don't come. It's like, okay, I see how it is. That's fine. Yeah, yeah. So you're gonna wanna come to the show and you're gonna wanna see us naked. You're gonna wanna see our titties.

Tell your friends, grab those tickets and we'll also be talking about Titanic. But the real, the real. So if you were on the fence, there you go. And then of course we're gonna be in Portland and you know, TBD, we could, well actually no, that's a live stream show, we can't take out our titties. San Francisco really is the only place

where we can safely take out our titties. Yeah. Sorry. And that's why you absolutely need to buy tickets and come to that show. Portland, it is live streamed like you said, as well as the live show in Portland and also part of the Shrek Tannic tour and we're doing Shrek.

So completely different show than the Titanic one. And yes, have we talked about these movies before? Maybe, I don't really remember. I don't think really we've ever done a Titanic episode before. But the, but. However, this is like sort of the amalgamation of like all of the amalgamation

of like all of those episodes put into one unhinged little show. Not even, it's all brand new stuff. Like if you see these shows, you're gonna be seeing lots of fresh stuff. And don't worry, we have seen Titanic twice in theaters in the last month. So we're absolutely like actually absurdly prepared for this.

So ready. And you can grab tickets to all of these shows on our Linktree, linktree slash Spectalcast. Again, there's live shows, there's live streams. You ain't got no excuse not to come. Yeah. Okay. We would absolutely love to see you there.

And in the meantime, we will be back with piping hot, brand new episodes for you in the coming week. But as we prepare for this tour, we wanted to share one of our favorite Matreon episodes. And again, if you enjoy this sort of more casual discussion, it's patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. Five bucks a month gets you access not just to episodes like this where we have two new ones monthly, but also a back catalog of 150 episodes. So that's the place to go. And Caitlin, I've always said, I think we're rather good fellas.

We're good fellas. Absolutely is how I would describe us. And actually the one last thing to do before we jump into the unlocked matri on episode is to just give a quick content warning because the movie involves and we discuss on the episode abuse and violence toward women. So we just wanted to provide you with that content warning at the very top.

Otherwise you're so true, Jamie, we are good fellas. We're great fellas. I mean, that's kind of the difference. If the movie was about us, it would be called Great Fellas. These ones, well, they're just good, but let us know what you think. Enjoy this Unlocked Matriot episode. Enjoy.

The Bechdel cast. As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a podcaster. No! Woo! Oh man. And that's my Ray Liotta impression. Perfect spot on. Perfect rest in paradise, Mr. Ray.

Sweet baby Ray himself. Wait, did he die? He died this year. Oh my gosh, how did I not know that? I think that it was, no disrespect to Ray, but if I'm remembering correctly, it was like one of those weeks where a lot of famous people died,

but he died in May of this year. So I think that he may have gotten kind of ferrofoceted, if you, if you will. I see. Bye. I forget who it would have been, but yeah. As far as I know, just a sweet man. Who? Yeah, I know nothing about him personally. Who was professionally Italian.

Yeah. And, you know, we uh, we celebrate that. Sure. Let's look at his personal life. Let's see if I'm in his personal life section. Oh, please. Yeah. Let's see. Let's look at his personal life. Let's see, I'm in his personal life section. Oh please, yeah. Let's see, let's see. Cause anytime I've said like, oh I really like this actor,

I have gone on to regret it. I know. Because everyone's like, but didn't you know that he was a fucking creep? No. And predator? And I'm like, well obviously no, I didn't know that. No, I think that it looks like,

looks like our cry Ray got a DUI in 07 and he loved horseback riding. He loved horseback riding. As far as I know, he is a nice guy that made a mistake, did his time or did his fee or whatever happens when that happens. And then he got back on the horse. Got back on the horse. Figuratively. And then he got back on the horse. Got back on the horse.

Figuratively, and literally. Oh, RIP, Ray. What a good, wait, here's something fun. Okay, here's what Ray has to say about working in many genres. He said this in 2018, while discussing his role alongside Jennifer Lopez as a corrupt cop targeted by the FBI

in the NBC crime drama Shades of Blue. This is all new information to me. But he was friends with Jennifer Lopez maybe. Okay, he says, quote, you wanna do as many different genres as you can and that's what I've been doing. I've done movies with the Muppets. I did Sinatra.

I did Good Guys and Bad Guys. I did a movie with an elephant. He did Good Fellas. He did a movie with an elephant. I like that he does not get more specific than that. I decided that I was here to try different parts and do different things. That's what it's really about. That's what a career should be. What movie had elephants? Oh, Operation Dumbodrop. Okay. Was he in a Muppet movie?

He's in Muppets from Space. Oh my goodness. And then is he in another Muppet movie? I'm sorry. I'm looking through his, um, wow. I mean, and what a career. Sorry to, what a legacy. This is our feminist podcast. Yeah. It looks like he was in Muppets from Space. I like that he singled that out as seemingly a career high because he's right.

He's correct. Oh, I forgot he was in B-movie as himself. What? B-Ray Leota? B-Ray Leota. I can't think too hard about B-movie. My head will explode. It's kind of shocking we haven't done that.

That's like our next irony-pilled matriarch choice probably. I think we, yeah, let's start a campaign to get B-movie covered on the cast. How hard could it be? Well, talk him to the, oh, and he was in, I think honestly the Ray Liotta work I would have encountered the most is watching boys play Grand Theft Auto in high school.

Cause he did Grand Theft Auto. Yeah, he's in Grand Theft Auto Vice City. I was looking through it and I was like, well I hate that I remember this much, but I like just watched my cousins and friends and you know, maybe I'm a bad feminist for this, but I actually genuinely don't mind watching other people play video games I think it's fun. I don't like video I've learned like I don't like playing video games and I really don't like being watched while I'm playing video games

But I like watching others. Yeah, I'm like on the side with my iPad playing, you know, my gaming, which is Homescapes. And then if they're playing Grand Theft Auto, you know, it's kind of a nice little... Wait. Anyways, he played the part of Tommy Vercetti in GTA Vice City. I remember it. That tracks. Do you want to come over and watch me play Pokemon Violet? Because you're welcome anytime. I genuinely like find it very soothing because it's like an active passive hang where it's

like you can chat but if the conversation lulls it's like we're both busy. We're gamers. We're gamers. But like I can't commit to something more than a little puzzle. What if we start a Twitch channel, a stream if you will. In which I hear me out. No, cause then you're being watched. Hear out my pitch, my Twitch pitch, Jamie. It's you watching me play Pokemon games,

but I don't know anything about Pokemon, so it's me just being like, who's this little guy? And then I catch him and I say, oh it's so-and-so, I'll add them to my Pokédex. You know it's another thing that I like to do, and it's not anti-feminist because I'm doing it. So okay, is while someone's playing a video, we're like, yeah, if you're playing Pokemon, and then you're like, who's this little guy? I'm like, I'll Google it. That's feminism.

I'm just kind of like your Pokemon wife. Acquiring knowledge is feminist. Acquiring. I just, you know what, I just don't wanna be watched, you know? I understand. I mean, I wanna be watched, perceived, adored, worshiped at all times, but when the video games are on, no, I don't know what it is.

It's a different story, I understand. It's complicated. Welcome to the Bechdel cast. We're talking about Goodfellas. It's part two of Mob March, and we are covering. The other Mob movie. The one other one, Goodfellas from 1990, directed by Martin Scorsese.

Oh, Mr. Nice. He's such a little cutie pie. What Scorsese movies have we covered on this show? Is this, this can't be the first one. Is this the first one? Oh my goodness. I think this may be the first one. Wow this the first one? Oh my goodness. I think this may be the first one. Wow.

It's about damn time. Look, I think Martin Scorsese is the best. The more I learn about him as years pass, the more I like him. I haven't, I am not a completionist, but I've seen many of his movies. I like almost everything I've seen. I feel like, I guess that there's,

I was thinking about this when we were, when I was like looking into the discourse around Goodfellas over the years. Because I think, I mean, we both really like this movie, but I do think that there is like, there was a weird point in like the mid 2010s, which is when the show started, where people, I think understandably,

took a hard turn against movies like this in general. But it had a lot more to do with, and it's like, I know I've been on, I don't know, I've been on a journey to this effect for years at this point of like, I feel like if you asked me about Goodfellas and you know, 2016, I would have been like, I don't know, I haven't seen it, fuck it, I don't care. Like I'm sick of hearing guys talk to me about movies

like that, like who gives a shit? Like I'm watching, you know, what anything else out of like sheer frustration of like how people talk about it. Yeah. Which I do think is a valid reaction. And I think it was like that was such a, I don't, you know, whatever. In retrospect, was it a productive time for discussion? That's kind of your mileage may vary. But it was a time where it felt like socially acceptable to say stuff like that kind of for the first time in our lifetimes at least, especially having like both of us been through film school and like, you know,

having to kind of be like, yeah, totally, you know, like it was cathartic. But now, like a half decade past that, I feel like in a slightly different place where it's like, have it like holding two truths at once of like, the way that a lot of people talk about these movies are deeply fucking annoying and like, you know, whoa, no, I always lose this word

every time it has to come out of my mouth. Like, it's a synonym for condescending, but condescending also works. Patronizing, patronizing. More like matronizing, am I right? Exactly. But it's the same way as like, I did like this forever ago,

like this performance art project that was like around Infinite Jest, a book I've never read, but I just, I was sick of being talked at about it. No one was talking to you about it there I was talking at you about it yeah like you couldn't possibly fucking understand and I feel like Goodfellas the Godfather most hyper masculine mob movies kind of fall under that same branch and people I

think we're like and you know I would say majority women were kind of like pushing back against that like leave me the fuck alone. Right. But now half a decade later, it's like, well, wait a second. I like this movie. And it's like the, this feels like very, something that pops up a lot in Martin Scorsese's catalog in particular, because he is a pretty historically progressive and cool guy who's always lifted up other people's work

and championed other people. And it seems like a real, just amazing person. I love him so much. But it feels like movies in his catalog often deal with themes of masculinity in ways that are pretty overtly critical. But the fans of the movies don't always get that. And then it's like, I developed a negative opinion

of some of his movies before I'd even seen them because of how patronizing fans of those movies could be. And ultimately, I'm like, oh, I lost out in that equation. Because then I was like staying away from them smoothies, like, oh, there's no way I would like them. And now that I'm like actually starting to watch them, I was like, well, shit, man. Like they had a point.

Just because you missed the fucking point doesn't mean I can't get to watch Goodfellas. Like, geez, I don't know. Anyways, I feel like that conversation came back around in a totally different way when Wolf of Wall Street came out, because that's like one of my favorite movies, but I think has the same kind of thing going on. Sure, yeah.

So what's your history with, pfft, I saw this movie, I don't know, as a late teenager for the first time and I really liked it. I bought it on DVD. Hell yeah. Okay. Bragg alert.

DVD catalog. You have one of those binders. I love it. I really do. And I would watch it maybe once a year, once every couple years. It wasn't one that I returned to extremely consistently, but I've seen this movie probably like eight or 10 times

throughout my life. Always enjoyed it. You know, I've been fucking with this movie for nearly two decades now. You've been at it. So yeah, that's my history. How about you? I hadn't seen it for all the reasons that I just told you.

Yeah, I just hadn't seen it. But also the same thing, honestly, it was partially that weirdly complicated convoluted thing I just said, and also just like, because it was like partially that weirdly complicated convoluted thing I just said, and also just like, it's just not a genre I've ever been interested in. It's not a genre that like, whatever. I feel like the kinds of movies that your family watches, like no one in my family really watches,

was interested in mob movies. So it just like wasn't something that I was into. And then as time went on, I feel like I became disinterested for reasons on top of just being like, man, it's not really for me. But I loved it, I thought this movie was awesome. Look, Mob March really took me off guard in that it, points are being made in these movies. And like, Goodfell, I mean, we had the whole discussion around

The Godfather, which I also liked, but I think for the purposes of this show, like, you know, we talked about it, whatever, you can listen to it. But Goodfellas has like so much more going on. Martin Scorsese, the man's an ally. He's interested. He like, I just, yeah, I thought this movie, I mean, obviously there's stuff to talk about, plenty to talk about, but I really left feeling, I also love at the very, very end of the movie, they're like, by the way,

she left him and you're like, yes, yes, get out of there, Karen. Oh, God, not us rooting for a Karen, but this is look. Yeah, there are hashtag not all Karen's and Karen Hill. We we make an exception for Karen Hill. we make an exception for Karen Hill. We make an exception for Lorraine Bracco in general. She's just, she is like pasta cannon because she's also the therapist in Soprano. Right, and you know what else she has done very recently?

What? She was the voice of a character named, I think Sophia in Pinocchio 2022 Robert Zemeckis. Stop. It's true. Stop it. The Pinocchio Wars coming January? I mean, now it's Pinocchio. Oh, it's the Pinocchio. I can't believe she was in, that sucks that she was in.

The bad one. The bad Pinocchio. but still on brand for her Pinocchio is Italian. Exactly. Wait, I know we talked about this, but now that we've seen the mob movies, I really want to have like a poster that's like Vito Corleone, Robert De Niro in Goodfellas and like Pinocchio. The three bad, bad Italian boys. No that's that's that's great. Merch? Possible merch? Something to think about. Our worst shirt yet. Pinocchio is a long bus. Yeah, the Goodfellas I want to see.

Think about it. Why couldn't Pinocchio be one of the good fellas? Think of it. This is like a horrible, like, bottom of the barrel robot chicken sketch brain that still exists in my fucking cortex somewhere, but it's like Vito Corleone being like, Pinocchio. How could you disrespect me on the day of my daughter's wedding?

Oh Pinocchio. My Italian King Pinocchio. Oh, Pinocchio owes me money. Alright well. Should I do the recap? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah Inside you two wolves are locked in battle

One thrives on fear and anger and doubt the other courage wisdom and love Every decision every moment feeds one of them. Which wolf are you feeding? I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed. I've been there, homeless, addicted, and lost. I know the power of small choices to turn your life around. On this podcast, I sit down with thinkers, leaders,

and survivors to uncover what it takes to feed the good wolf. This podcast saved me. It's like having a guide for the hardest parts of life. The wolves are hungry. What will you feed them? Listen to the one you feed on the iHeart radioio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Attention, Bechtelcast listeners. A-wooga! It's a tour announcement. Yes, indeed. We are going back on tour doing three different shows in three different cities, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Portland, Oregon. But if you cannot make it in person, we are live streaming both the Los Angeles and Portland

shows. Here's the deal. Here is the deal. In Los Angeles, our show is on January 19th. It is a Bechtelcast celebration where we're gonna have past guests do stand-up and solo acts. Jamie and myself are gonna do stand-up. We're gonna have fun little chats with our past guests and just have a big celebration of the show in San Francisco. The show is on January 23rd. It is a part of SketchFest, and it is a part of our Shrektanic tour

in which we are discussing Titanic ever heard of it. And yes, we have outfits. This is the only show that will not be live streamed. So if you wanna see the Titanic show, you gotta be there in San Francisco. Indeed, and then finally, we have a show in Portland on January 26. That is at Curious Comedy Theater.

And it is also a Shrek Tanik show, this time about Shrek. And it is also being live streamed. And a little note for our live stream shows, the Los Angeles and the Portland ones, if you cannot actually watch the show as it is being live streamed, you can still buy a ticket and have access to the stream for a week afterward. So if you don't live in those areas and you want to see the show, you still have plenty of access to the shows. So please, if you can't make it to a live show, get a live stream ticket. It'll

still be a blast. And if you are there at a live show, we always do meet and greets and have exclusive merch at the shows. We love going on tour and we love seeing y'all. So we hope to see you there. And you can grab tickets at Linktree slash Spectalcast for all of those shows, the tickets to the live in-person shows as well as the live streams.

So Linktree slash Spectalcast, and we will see you there. Bye. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together.

You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stan. Anya and I met through hockey and now

we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between. We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice. Like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and Ratchet Mom Club founder, Kirsten Ferguson. And I remember going in there hot mess. So listen to Moms Who Puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes,

we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this boomstack stuff is I think embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Moll, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders.

It's for the voters to decide. Follow The Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Okay, here's Goodfellas. It's based on a true story and based on a book called Wiseguy written by Nicholas Pelleggi. Pelleggi? Pelleggi. You're being the bad Italian.

Yeah, I don't know. Also, Pelleggi, iconically, married to Nora Ephron up until her death. Is that so? Yes, she's written really lovely things, or she wrote really lovely things about him because, you know, Nora Ephron, she loved to fillet her exes.

It's one of my favorite things about her. And Carl Bernstein, there were no survivors. I think he's still technically alive, but spiritually he's been dead for decades. But Nicholas Pileggi was the good husband to Nora Ephron. So, respect, respect. Yeah. That's what he's most famous for, not this. Yeah, being Nora Ephron's, her husband,

not shitty husband, yeah. Okay, here's the recap. We open in media res, uh oh, screenwriting term alert. Okay, why don't you tell the folks what that means? That literally translates to into the midst of things, or like into the midst of, because we open on the characters, as we will see them in the middle of the story,

because we see three guys are driving in a car, it's Ray Liotta, Robert De Niro, and Joe Pesci. They pull over a guy in their trunk who they thought was dead is not dead. So they stab him and shoot him some more until he is dead. Cue voiceover from Ray Liotta's character, Henry Hill. He says, as far back as I can remember, I always wanted

to be a gangster. And then we cut back, we flashback to Henry as a teen kid in Brooklyn, New York. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it. I think the year is 1955. Young Henry gets a job working for some mob guys in his neighborhood and he really admires these guys, especially his boss, Polly, played by... Paul Sorvino, King Paul Sorvino, who threatened to, who famously, his most famous thing is that he threatened to, with extreme specificity, threatened to kill Harvey Weinstein

after learning that he had been abusive towards his daughter, Mira Sorvino. Right. Yeah. Paul Sorvino, absolute icon. I believe he also passed this year. He did. He passed over the summer. Oh, and also he was in Shrek.

I mean- Wait, who is he in Shrek? His, well, his Wikipedia pic, maybe he just went to the Shrek premiere because his, but look, if you go to his Wikipedia page, his Wikipedia picture is him at the premiere of Shrek 4. I hope he's in one of the Shrek movies though. That's so wild.

I think it's even funnier. He is not in Shrek 4. So what was he doing there? At the premiere. What were you doing? Was Mira Sorvino, that is weird. Was Mira Sorvino in Shrek 4?

Was he supporting his diet? Maybe, oh yeah. She wasn't in it. Paul Sorvino, premier of Shrek, Forever After. Yeah, he's just there. No one in the family was in Shrek 4. What?

Maybe he just loves Shrek. Now this is a mystery I could get really involved in. Because Paul Sorvino is like a legend. Like he's not going for exposure. Right. He's not going to, he's not going for exposure. Right. He's not going to, he's not going the way that like Carrie would go to things at Sex and the City to see and be seen

at the premiere of Shrek Forever After. That is so bizarre. Anyways, Paul. I love it though. Also a legend. Yes. Shout out Mr. Paul. Okay.

Henry Hill, he admires all these mob guys, especially Polly. Henry's explaining how everything works, Okay, Henry Hill, he admires all these mob guys, especially Polly. Henry's explaining how everything works, how he learned the ropes, how everyone in the neighborhood came to respect him because of who he was affiliated with. He eventually meets Jimmy Conway, played by Robert De Niro.

And then we're like, okay, this movie's about to be about fathers and sons yet again. We got a father figure, we got a son figure, got it. He also meets young Tommy before he's played by Joe Pesci. And I must say the guy who they got to play young Tommy and the young actor who they got to play teenage Henry Hill, they did a really good job finding young actors who very closely resemble Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci. Yeah good I thought it was it was a good

casting all around. Yeah. God you got you just gotta love Joe Pesci. Oh shout out even though he's despicable. But shout out to his iconic Christmas album remember that? Yeah I wonder if is it allowed for us to play it out? It's the matriarch. Because this is kind of our episode that comes out as close to those who observe Christmas. I mean, would it be Christmas without Joe Pesci's Christmas album? Probably not. Probably not. No. Also, never forget that Goodfellas and Home Alone come out the same year, 1990.

Yes, this is his banner year, and he wins, so, spoiler with Joe Pesci, he wins an Oscar this year. What if it was like, but not for the movie? But in fact. For Home Alone. For Home Alone. Oh, okay. Huge year for him, wow. Enorm alone. Oh, okay. Huge year for him, wow.

Enormous, yes. Yeah. So Henry meets these people, and one day he gets arrested for selling stolen cartons of cigarettes, and during his day in court, he didn't give up any names, because as Jimmy tells him,

"'You never rat on your friends, "'and you always keep your mouth shut. We cut to eight years later. Henry has grown up to be Ray Liotta. Tommy is Joe Pesci. They're still doing mobs stuff. They're stealing a lot and reselling it. We get that. Oh, sorry, let me let this fucking siren pass. The name of the album is just a reminder. Vincent LaGuardia Gambini sings Just For You. It's the name of the album. I love it.

Is that his, like, musical persona? I guess so? Wait, hold on. I just gotta refresh my memory. He just just... Vincent LaGuardia Gambini is so funny. That's amazing. Oh man. OK.

Bless him. All right, so we get the very famous scene where Henry tells Tommy that he's funny after Tommy has told this amusing story. And then Tommy's like, funny how? And he seems really mad. But it turns out he's just goofing, because these guys love to goof.

One thing I love about this movie, in contrast to The Godfather, is that Goodfellas is far less interested in, like, I feel like Goodfellas makes it all look more realistically, like, messy and petty and, like, emotionally driven, and, like, it is organized crime, but it's, like like not super organized. It's pretty sloppy a lot of the time.

Yeah, and it's like it where it's like, there's so much of the Godfather, and I don't even mean this as a negative, but it's just really different the way it portrays the same world in the like, basically the same area of like, I don't know, like I feel like there's all these scenes in the Godfather that is supposed to like lay out to the audience like, well this family has a conflict

with this family, but that's in conflict with this. And they're kind of like really laying out what everyone's relationship to each other crime wise is, where like this movie is like, you do get that information, but it's not like, it's more focused on like how mob activity affects people in your life versus this is how the mob works. Right, which I appreciate. Yeah, it's awesome. So then Henry meets this woman Karen, played by Lorraine Bracco, because Tommy wants to go on a date with another

woman who won't go out with Tommy unless it's a double date. Right. So. Oh, do we? Because we just did Batman Returns the other day, and Danny DeVito is canonically 33 in that movie. I do feel that it's important that Robert De Niro is introduced as being 28 or 29 at the beginning of the movie. That is very funny. And Ray Liotta is at the beginning of the movie, like Henry Hill.

21. Yeah, Ray Liotta is 21 at the beginning of the movie. I think Lorraine Bronco is supposed to be even younger. They're both in their mid to late thirties, but whatever. You know, movie magic. Right, so Henry and Karen go on this double date with Tommy and this other woman. Henry and Karen get on this double date with Tommy and this other woman.

Henry and Karen get off to a rocky start, but she gives him a second chance. He takes her out to all these fancy dinners. He knows a bunch of people. He's flinging money around and she's very impressed. So they stick together. Meanwhile, he makes a really big score stealing cash from an airplane.

Do you think it's the one, no, that the minions hijacked the minions rise of Gru? I think it's the same plane. What year would that have been? Are we in like 1970 now or are we not there yet? It's I think around eight-ish to 10 years after 1955. So it'd be like the mid-60s, I wanna say. Mm, I'm trying to remember.

I'm pretty sure that Minions Rise of Gru happens in the early 70s, so. Okay. May not quite line up. But pretty close. Pretty close enough. Close enough. Not inconceivable is all I'll say, because the Minions hijacked a plane sometime in the late 1960s early 1970s

I think it could be the same one. Nothing bad happened. They landed the plane worst thing that happened Stewart got sucked into the toilet, but he ended up fine. He's fine. Yep Anyways, just an interesting synchronicity thought I'd point it out. Yeah. Yeah, I know I love it So they score a lot of money from this airplane heist and Karen comes to understand what Henry actually does for a living. She's pretty cool with it. We'll talk all about that, but they get married

and we switch points of view from like Henry's voiceover to Karen's voiceover and perspective as we see her get like acclimated to the quote unquote mob wife or mob his wife lifestyle. Mob his wife his life, yeah. Exactly. That scene, I do like how that, how Karen present, like that's so alarming to be suddenly dropped into like a bunch of mob wives just casually discussing

like children dying and she's just like, ah, mm-hmm. There's a lot to talk about in that scene, but I- For sure. I love Karen. Yeah. Rooting for her. One night, Henry, Jimmy, and Tommy

beat the shit out of this mob guy Billy Bats, who had insulted Tommy. And Tommy, we know, is like, he's kind of a loose cannon. He's very reactionary and he has an extremely fragile ego. He's Joseph Pesci. It's true. So Tommy kills Billy Bats and they throw him in the trunk of Henry's car and start driving to like bury his body.

They stop at Tommy's mom's house, who is played by Catherine Scorsese, AKA Martin Scorsese's mom. She's so good. So good, so cute. I just love it. I think my favorite, I love that it was improvised, but my favorite exchange in the movie is one joke

that she's like, you got one dog facing this way, you got one dog facing the other way. I like it. She's like, yeah, one dog's facing east, the other dog's facing west. In my mind, I'm like, that's where he got the Oscar. You think anyone could do that? Uh-uh. No. No. So they chat and eat with her, he got the Oscar. You think anyone could do that? No!

No. So they chat and eat with her and then they get back on the road. And then this is the scene we see at the very beginning where they open the trunk and kill the guy, then bury his body. But this Billy Bats guy was a made man. He was like untouchable, so to speak.

So now his people are looking for him and our friends will get in a big trouble if they find his dead body. Zoinks. And the spot in upstate New York where they buried him, that property had been sold and is being developed into condos. So they have to go and dig up the body

and move it somewhere else. We learn that Henry and most of the other guys are cheating on their wives, their wives. On Fridays. Right, they all have girlfriends who they take to the same club that they take their wives to on Saturday nights. Diabolical.

Henry's girlfriend is Janice. Karen starts to realize what's going on, that he's cheating on her. They argue, Henry gaslights her, then Karen goes to Janice and screams at her. Then Karen puts a gun in Henry's face and threatens to kill him. He fights back. He's very physically abusive. He threatens to shoot her. That is happening.

Well, yeah, we'll get on around to that whole discussion. Yeah. Meanwhile, our friend Tommy is flying off the handle a lot lately. He shoots and kills one of their little minions, Spider. So things are a bit precarious for the boys, the fellas. Joey's gone off leash. It's true. Henry and Jimmy do a job in Tampa, but they get caught and have to go to jail. But because they're in the mob, they get to go to like a special prison room.

They get to go like jail where you only get to hang out with your friends and make pasta. And you have like a little apartment and there's a kitchen and they cook all the time. I think it's so funny that there's like a solid like five minute chunk of the movie where it's just like them talking about all the food that they make. Yeah. And like ingredients being smuggled in and all that stuff. I liked that section.

And I wonder, I mean, I have, we don't read books, but I really appreciate even more so, it seems like I would say quite a bit more so than The Godfather, that this movie is so based in research. I was like, oh, I wonder what the actual historical precedent for mob guys going to jail and just hanging out with each other was. I believe that it happened.

I just don't know any specifics. It's fascinating. Yup. So Karen is sneaking in a bunch of food to Henry in jail. She's also sneaking in drugs, which Henry has started to sell. I don't know if he's selling them in prison or he's somehow moving them from prison.

He's got some sort of operation going and he's starting to skim a little off. He's starting to get high in his own supply as they say. It's true. He gets out of prison four years later and Polly is like, hey Henry, stop selling drugs. So he in a way is a lot like Vito Corleone because he's like, drugs are bad, say no to drugs.

And Henry's like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I'm not selling drugs. Henry's like, what could possibly go wrong? Meanwhile, Henry is trafficking cocaine from Pittsburgh and selling it other places. He's having his new girlfriend Sandy played by Debbie Mazor mix the cocaine.

And he's making a lot of money. And he also brings in Jimmy and Tommy to help. Meanwhile, they're also planning and they manage to pull off another huge airplane heist, the Lufthansa heist, where they get several million dollars. But this guy, Maury, who sells wigs, is- Iconic. Iconic wig commercial. Love it. Love it so much.

It's really good. Mori is busting Jimmy's balls, as they say, because he's like, where's my money? You didn't give me my money yet. Yeah, Mori thinks he's like, where's my money? You didn't give me my money yet. Yeah, Maury thinks he's a player, but Jimmy's getting sick of Maury's shit. And Henry's trying to help him out. He's like, cool it, Maury.

Maury's like, ah, it's all right, I'll cool it. And it's like, but then he doesn't. Then he doesn't. He doesn't cool it quite enough. And what happens to Maury? Well, Jimmy whacks him. Yeah, well, he left Jimmy with no choice. It's true.

I'm on Jimmy's side. Justice for Jimmy. Jimmy also kills or has basically everyone involved in this big robbery killed so that the feds couldn't trace this heist back to Jimmy. Yeah. Meanwhile Tommy is about to become a maid man which Jimmy is really excited about because it'll be good for them to have one of their...

Is he about to be... well actually I forget where they're living at this point. I was like is he about to be made in Manhattan? Oh okay. I don't think they're really hanging out in Manhattan. I know. But. A little too fancy. But, you know, he's being made near Manhattan. There you go.

Yeah. That's the sequel, yeah. I think that was a worthy detour to explore. Thank you. No, I think, no, Jamie, thank you. And Ray Liotta, new Jennifer Lopez, it's all connected. Makes you think. Okay, so Tommy being a made man will be a good thing for Jimmy and Henry, but oh no, it's a trap.

And the people who were gonna make Tommy actually kill him and it's revenge for Tommy killing Billy Bats. Again, Tommy horrible and we'll get to why in a bit, but Joe Pesci's last, what does he say right before, it's just like so, he's like, oh no. Oh shit, yeah, oh shit. And he's like, oh no. It's so, and then his head is just,

and it's so like, this movie's use of violence is really, if I had like more time to prep slash had more than five brain cells, I would understand more, but like, I just really, I liked this movie. It's like, it seems like Scorsese was like really carefully choosing when to show explicit violence and when not to. Like it's not just an all out bloodbath.

A lot of the violence takes place like out of frame or off screen and you like hear it, but you don't see it. But when Tommy gets whacked, they want you to see Joe Pesci's head. Blah, like it is. Oh shit. It's good. Yeah, it's good stuff.

So Tommy is murdered and Jimmy is very upset. Things are falling apart for him. Henry is getting more and more addicted to cocaine. Then there's this day where Henry has a bunch of stuff to do. He's gotta unload a big shipment of coke. Sandy is helping him mix it, so he's gotta go over there. His old babysitter, Lois, is helping him transport it, so he has to organize stuff with her. There's a helicopter following him around all day.

He's got to go pick up his brother and then take his brother home and he's got to make this sauce for the pasta for this big dinner that he's cooking. All this stuff. And Pesci's, and Pesci I thought was like doing a pretty amazing job of like doing all the VO for this as if he was on cocaine while he was explaining it to. Oh, you mean Ray Liotta? Ray Liotta, sorry. I was like, Pesci's dead.

Pesci got whacked. Pesci got whacked. Bonk. Flea. He's gone. Flea was, again, he's just been a little movie buff recently. He was loving Goodfellas. He planted the whole damn movie.

He cheered when Karen left Henry. We were both cheering. It was great. See, Flea is slowly transitioning into being a lap cat. He wasn't a lap cat. But now in his advanced age, AKA three, he's a little lab cat now. Sorry, I meant Ray Liotta, I thought was doing a great coke-fueled narration.

Yeah. He's going, these are all great performances. Yeah, that's true. So this very chaotic day is happening, and at the end of the day, Henry gets busted by the Feds. They throw him in jail. Karen is able to bail Henry out by having her mother sell her house.

Oh my God. Devastating. Yeah. But when Henry returns home to sell all of that cocaine, it was like $60,000 worth, Karen is like, well, I had to flush that down the toilet because the cops were here and they had a search warrant and they would have found it. And Henry pitches a fit because that

was their one prospect. They have no other money. Polly won't help him because Polly says no to drugs. It seems like Jimmy might be trying to whack Karen and Henry so they have no one they can turn to. That scene broke my heart. I know. Does that scene, I mean, and I feel like a lot of our conversation is gonna be on Karen, but like, Karen, I just like, she, and I like,

I like that she is not like perfect, like she fucks up and she can be pretty horrible. I think especially like the moment she chooses to involve her children is like, she's like not an amazing parent, but also she's like set up for just a life of pain and misery. But I feel like that scene with Jimmy at first,

like it was the most affection I had seen her be given in the entire movie. The way that Jimmy talks to her and like asks her how she is, like offers her a gift that you don't think, at least in like that moment and maybe I'm like the most foolish person of all time. But I was like, oh wow, like it seems like for a second, it's like the first time someone is giving her something without expecting something in return. And it's like, he's treating her with affection. No, you do think that for a moment, yeah.

Yeah, and you're like, oh, finally, like someone is fucking nice to Karen. And then two seconds, and like, you can see how much it means to her that he asked her like how her mother is and like all this stuff. And then it's like, oh, he was just doing that to set her up

to be fucking murdered. Like it's just, that scene broke my damn heart, because I was like, finally, someone gives Karen the time of day, but it's only because they're like, and that's the last thing that's ever gonna happen to you. Like, what the fuck, man, sorry. Yeah, no, no, no.

These mob guys, they're not very nice. They're kinda not nice. They're mob guys, they're not very nice. They're kind of not nice. They're meanies. They're little meanies. Goodfellas more like mean fellas. Anyway. Flea, what do you think? Exactly.

So Henry has no one he can turn to. He's broke and he has no choice but to cooperate with the feds and rat out his friends. So we see Jimmy, Polly, all of those guys get arrested, and then we get that famous closing scene where they're in the courtroom, Henry names names, he sells out his friends,

and then he breaks the fourth wall and talks directly to the camera and then we see him living a very like typical suburban American life in the witness protection program which Karen opted out of. Oh well I know she's like I'm not sure if I want to do that or not but I couldn't tell if I wasn't sure. I thought oh, my impression was she opted out. Maybe that's not, actually, listen or sound off in the car. I actually don't, my impression was that she, I could see it going a couple different ways because she's basically, it seemed like in the scene,

which stars an actual cop, weirdly, which, whatever, that's just like a context thing that we can talk about. It's not like a, but whatever. It seems like she is given the choice of like choosing her parents or her husband. And then it says, in like the posts, where are they now thing, that she separated from him in 89.

But I could see that being either she did do witness protection and then left him, or she just like technically stayed married to him and then separated after not going to witness protection. I interpret it as, because I think he goes into witness protection in the early 80s. He gets arrested five years later

for some other drug conspiracy thing in 1985, I think. So you think that's, she stays for a little bit longer other drug conspiracy thing in like 1985, I think. So you think that's like, she's, she's, she hangs, she stays for a little bit longer and then bail. Yeah, and then she's like, I've had it. I liked it better in my head. I liked it better in my head. Cause she loves her family so, like she loves her parents so much.

Well, I hope she went back with them. Yeah. I wonder what became of Karen. She became Tony Soprano's therapist. She can't escape. Well, I hope she went back with them. Yeah, I wonder what became of Karen. She became Tony Sopranos therapist She can't escape. Well, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I mean she she knew a lot about the mob She sure did. So that's the movie Inside you two wolves are locked in battle. One thrives on fear and anger and doubt. The other, courage, wisdom and love.

Every decision, every moment feeds one of them. Which wolf are you feeding? I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed. I've been there, homeless, addicted and lost. I know the power of small choices to turn your life around. On this podcast, I sit down with thinkers, leaders and survivors to uncover what it takes to feed the good wolf. This podcast saved me.

It's like having a guide for the hardest parts of life. The wolves are hungry. What will you feed them? Listen to the one you feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Attention, Bechdelcast listeners, a-wooga! It's a tour announcement. Yes indeed we are going back on tour doing three different shows in three different cities Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Portland, Oregon. But if you cannot make it in person, we are live streaming both the Los Angeles and Portland shows.

Here's the deal. Here is the deal. In Los Angeles, our show is on January 19. It is a Bechtelcast celebration where we're going to have past guests do stand up and solo acts. Jamie and myself are going to do stand up. We're going to have fun little chats with our past guests and just have a big celebration of the show

in San Francisco. The show is on January 23rd. It is a part of SketchFest and it is a part of our Shrektanic tour in which we are discussing Titanic. Ever heard of it? And yes, we have outfits. This is the only show that will not be live streamed.

So if you wanna see the Titanic show, you gotta be there in San Francisco. Indeed, and then finally, we have a show in Portland on January 26th. That is at Curious Comedy Theater, and it is also a Shrek-tanic show, this time about Shrek. And it is also being live streamed.

And a little note for our live stream shows, the Los Angeles and the Portland ones, if you cannot actually watch the show as it is being live streamed, you can still buy a ticket and have access to the stream for a week afterward. So if you don't live in those areas and you wanna see the show,

you still have plenty of access to the show. So please, if you can't make it to a live show, get a live stream ticket. It'll still be a blast. And if you are there at a live show, we always do meet and greets and have exclusive merch at the shows. We love going on tour and we love seeing y'all. So we hope to see you there.

And you can grab tickets at link tree slash slash Spectalcast for all of those shows, the tickets to the live in-person shows as well as the live streams. So linktree slash Spectalcast and we will see you there. Bye. Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stan. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice. Like FIFA World Cup winner, Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was gonna be. And Peloton instructor and Ratchet Mom Club founder, Kirsten Ferguson.

And I remember going in there hot mess. So listen to Moms Who Puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys,

and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg podcasts to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this boomstack stuff is I think embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Moll, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means.

And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. That's for the voters to decide. Follow The Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I mean, for me, I feel like a lot of the criticisms that we had about The Godfather,

which was like the movie fails to offer any significant character development or perspective for the women who exist in this specific world, and like overly glorifying the lifestyle without offering enough critique of it. I feel like Goodfellas handles these things, not perfectly, but better. But like attempts to handle it. Like, yeah. Yeah, I feel like there still was more room for, I mean, there's always more room for,

you know, like women's perspectives inside of this genre. Because for all the, like, I mean, or women's perspectives inside of this genre. Because for all the, I mean, and I think I said all I had to say about it at the beginning, but I would be curious, I mean, if there's more to say, then let's say it. But I feel like when someone is talking your ear off about Goodfellas, they're usually not talking about Karen at all.

Which I don't think is necessarily like the fault of the filmmaker. But it is like this, it's weird. Because based on how I've been spoken to about Goodfellas over the years, I wouldn't have expected Karen to have as prominent a part as she does. And I think that her part is like, she's amazed.

Like I've, can we talk about Karen? Let's talk about Karen, yeah. I love Karen. Well I think, speaking to what you're saying, it's like the biases of the, you know, fan base or the audience members who are like, well yeah, I guess there's like some woman in the movie but I'm not, I don't care about her,

even if she does have a prominent role in the story. Or even in the story. I care about what's going on with the boys. Or even not that actively like, ugh, who cares about women? But just like, they just don't think to like, I don't know, yeah, because of those biases, they're like, oh, I'm just inherently more interested in what's going on with Joe Pesci. Even though I would argue, Karen has, I think, one of the clearest,

strongest arcs in the entire movie. Oh, for sure. She's, I just, I just, I just like the lady. I think she's a cool lady. It's awesome. And I do, so like, and this is a part of the book, Wise Guy, that is the source material for this movie. And while most of the movie is accompanied

by Henry's voiceover, and it's told from his point of view, there are significant portions of the movie where the point of view shifts, and I feel like, you know, you do only get, and I think there was, I don't have the window in front of me, but in the comments of our Godfather matriarch episode, there was a listener who pointed out, I think very rightfully so, that like, it's not that there are not a lot of mob movies centered around women because there have never been women mobsters, there have been women mobsters. So it isn't even like a decent excuse to say like, oh well that's why this genre tends to be centered around men, it's like as usual,

men's stories are prioritized historically. Which weirdly this movie kind of says at the end, which I thought was interesting. But anyways, in The Godfather, you get Connie and Kay, both of whom have fascinating story arcs that are not depicted on screen and are not, I don't think, considered to be important by the writers, by the filmmakers. It seems like Scorsese feels differently about this, Scorsese and Peledge, I mean, how is Nicholas Peledge gonna go home to Nora Ephron and say,

I didn't write a female character, hello? All I had to say, I think that there was still room for more women because it's like you get one, like in The Godfather you get two interesting but basically absent female characters. In Goodfellas you get one great female character and then a couple of other women who seem interesting. It seems like there's a lot going on with them

but we don't have time, kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, Karen, I thought it was interesting. Lorraine Bracco has done a number of interviews about this part over the years. I obviously didn't watch all of them, but I did like, there is kind of this theme and how she talks about Karen where she's unequivocally like, no, Karen is an abused, like everything,

all of her decisions and her behavior like when I was playing the part and I and and I'm pretty sure she says in an interview with I think it was like The British Film Academy. She's just like I think that it was like written to be You know, she's an abused spouse and like that's how I played her That's how I thought of her and I think that that's how how, you know, I was supposed to be thinking about her. And I think that that reads pretty clearly in a way that like, she's facing a lot of the same issues that Connie is and the Godfather. But like this review has it.

And Kay. Like, but yeah, right. Because it's like, I was thinking about kind of a similar scene. It plays out differently. But like there's a scene in The Godfather where Kay asks Michael at the very beginning when he's still like good boy, Michael. Yeah. And she's like, what is going on here? Like what is happening here?

And he's still good boy, Michael. So he's like, my family's bad, but I'm good. And I'm pretty sure that is the line he says. No, it's a direct quote, yeah. Yeah, it's a famous line. There's a leave the gun, take the cannolis. And then it's like, my family's bad, but I'm good. Two most famous quotes from the Godfather.

Sorry, I didn't finish the quote. He says, my family's bad, but I'm good. And then he pauses, there's a beat, and he says, for now that is. It's a really famous line from Michael Corleone. It's really good, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of, it's this cinematic tool called foreshadowing.

And it- Oh, interesting, okay. I think I learned about that as I was getting a master's degree in screenwriting, something I would never mention. They don't tell you in undergrad. They don't tell you in undergrad. You do have to go back

to be able to understand the richness of, for now that is. And Pacino sells it. But there's a similar scene towards the beginning of Goodfellas where it's pretty early into Henry and Karen's relationship and Karen's like, what the fuck is this? And he lies to her, but she figures it out very quickly where I feel like the godfather for some reason, Kay is like, it takes her so long

to figure out what's going on, even though it's pretty obvious. But Karen has questions right away, figures it out pretty quickly. In the Godfather episode, when we were like, why would Diane Keaton's character Kay, who did not grow up in a mob family, why would she stay with

Michael knowing that he's working his way up the mob ladder like all of these questions that again would have been interesting for that movie to explore but right the Godfather skips over all that but in goodfellas there's a similar scenario there are similar scenes even like you said. But like Karen is from a typical middle class American family has no dealings with the mob until she meets Henry. And we're like, okay, well why would she stay with someone like that?

Like that's a potentially dangerous situation. He's not a good person, but Goodfellas offers a lot of insights to her feelings, her trajectory, like everything about it. There's that scene where Henry beats the crap out of this man who had assaulted Karen, and then he hands her a gun to hide. And her voiceover says, like, oh, I know there are women like my best friends who would have

gotten out of there the minute their boyfriend gave them a gun to hide, but I didn't, I gotta admit the truth, it turned me on. And like, that's like kind of simplifying things, but I, and I'm speculating here, but I feel like it's that she found both like the gun and the secrecy and just like a lot of stuff surrounding that whole situation. The idea that like she has a boyfriend who would be able to offer her protection against other men

like all of that stuff is just like exciting and would appeal to not everyone obviously, but it appeals to her and she like says that and that's the insight that we need to understand why someone would stay with a guy like Henry Hill. Right. I mean, it's like, and it's again, it's like, I like that she like opens it by being like, yeah, this obviously is not for everybody. But I think that like, yeah, the context of like she's lived, it seems like a pretty quote unquote boring, safe life. And here is this exciting person.

It's also taking in the historical context of, this is, I would imagine, the early 60s, where there's not as many options for quote unquote an exciting life available to women of this time. There's still the very rigid expectation that you have to get married and have kids no matter what. And so if she's look, I mean, and again, like, she's, it's hard because the actors are very obviously like 36, but you're like, oh, she's also 21 years old. Like, it's like, you know, not inconceivable that anyone of any gender would just be like, Oh, I'm,

I'm going out with some like exciting asshole cause I'm 21 and that's what 21 year olds do. Especially like a guy who has money, who has connections, who is respected by the people around him, who, you know, pays for dinners and champagne and all this stuff. Like, again, taking the historical context into consideration where women relied on husbands for survival in a lot of cases because, like, career opportunities were far more limited for women and a way to support yourself as a woman was far more limited.

Women have always been conditioned to be like, okay, find a man who can provide for you. And this was clearly a man that could provide for her as she perceived it. Right. And it's like, it would have been, I mean, it was like, it would have been interesting narratively to see a foil to that,

because it's not like in the early 60s a woman could not support herself or could not go another way. And that would have been interesting to have some sort of alternative or even for Karen to see of like, oh, it's not inconceivable that I could be on my own. But I feel like, yeah,

you're given the information you need as to why she gets sucked into this. I think in particular, that moment where, like, is everything, I mean, Henry's a horrible, Henry's a fucking scumbag. He's a bad fella. He's a bad fella. He's a devil father.

He's bad. But right away, it's very clear that the way that Henry understands how to be in a relationship is protecting with money and violence. Now, not to armchair psychologist, a person who doesn't exist Although actually Henry held did technically exist but sure fictional Henry Hill now put yourself in the shoes of of Lorraine Bracco as

the therapist in Sopranos and please so psychoanalyze in a way. I'm in my I'm in my Lorraine bag But like you you get the context you need for I mean, and he's a horrible person and this doesn't excuse the behavior, but I like that you get the context for why Henry is such a piece of shit spouse also, because he was physically abused by his own father. He grew up seeing his father be deeply resentful of his station in life class wise. And I think what you often see in households that, and obviously not true across the board, but I feel like the story wants you to believe like, okay, well, you know, he grew up around violence, both with, you know, wanting to be in the mob from the time he was a child. And also like he

was just experienced violence in his home anyways. And so it's like, okay, he's made this sort of quote unquote decision that he's not going to die in the class he grew up in, even though that is kind of ultimately his fate, but whatever. But for a while, he was like, okay, how can I secure a partner by showing them I care,

by having money and being violent towards anyone who like is fucked up to them which is I thought that that having that scene where it's early in their relationship and Karen is very upset and she has been assaulted by her neighbor and I I mean, it's like, kind of an amazing scene. You may disagree with his methods, but I kind of don't. Like, Henry, you know, goes across the street and like fucking wax him in the head over and over and over and pistol whips the guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like that is his way of showing like he thinks like that is a showing of love to Karen of like, if you stay with me, these things will not

happen to you, which you know, like in that time, there is value in that. I mean, women were conditioned to see value in a man who was like willing to fight to protect her like that's particularly in a like culture that abusing women physically was far more socially accepted than it was now right or than it is now and it's still you know pretty socially accepted but but yeah like i don't know i feel like you're given the information you need to understand how she kind of ends up tangled in this. Right, there's that and there's another scene

told from her perspective. We hear her voiceover again. It's after they've been married for a little while, but her voiceover says, "'After a while, it got to be all normal. "'None of it seemed like crime. "'It was more like Henry was enterprising. Our husbands weren't brain surgeons.

They were blue collar guys. The only way to make extra money was to go out and cut a few corners. We were all very close, never any outsiders around. And being together all the time made everything seem all the more normal. It got to where I was even proud that I had the kind of husband who was willing to go out

and risk his neck Just to get us the little extras so She's touching on some like interesting class stuff here number one number two it like shows the logic of someone who Who's like exposed to something that is? Not normal per se but it becomes normal for her. Because, you know, like involvement in the mob

and organized crime isn't quote unquote normal. Like most people, you know, your average American person or family doesn't have exposure to that and would probably actively avoid mob stuff. Right. But because of the like and the repetition of it and her constant exposure to it, that's the- Over a period of years.

Over time, that's how things get normalized. So she's speaking to her becoming acclimated to this lifestyle. Because again, that was something that I kept thinking about in when I was watching the Godfather I was like Why would Kay like stick around like why don't we get any insight about this? But like here we have Karen saying like this is why I stuck around because it felt extremely normal It got to be very normal right and it like became her community and like you see how painful it is for her later when Henry's locked up and she loses that community

because her value in her own community is decided by the status of her husband, which is traumatic in itself. And I like that even before that, because I also loved that they just take a moment and it helps move the story forward in time too to explain why she sticks around and how it begins to feel like this is just my life now.

But you also see two different scenes shortly after she gets married that she's struggling with it where you have first the scene with, again, which is just stuff that could actually, that's always the weird thing about the scene with, again, which is just like stuff that could actually, that's always the weird thing about the Godfather, scenes that could have been in the Godfather probably, similar scenes, with either Kay or, well not Connie,

Connie grew up with the mob, but scenes that you could have seen, but they just really weren't interested in the character, but with Karen, when it switches to her perspective, you see a scene with her parents shortly after they get married, because she gets into an argument with her mother, who is making some pretty good points, I would say.

She's just like, where is your husband? This is really fucked up, this is weird, where is he at, you guys just got married, what's going on? She says what kind of people are these and Karen says stay out of it mom, you don't know how I feel. Right and I'm like okay.

These are things I said as a teenager but yeah sure. But I still think she's supposed to be like 22. Like it's. Yeah right. She's supposed to be pretty young, like I don't know, it's weird. But also I can totally relate with, I don't know, being in clearly a bad relationship, being called out on it,

and being like, you don't understand. That was sort of how I read that scene, is like she has made at this point a pretty permanent choice, especially in the 60s of like she's gotten married, so like she's gotta stand by this decision because what is the alternative? And on top of the like a lot of people, myself included, hate to hand it to their mom for being right about something.

But like I did understand why she reacted that way, but that sucks. And like Karen has just like put in such a hard position emotionally all the time. Because it's like if Karen was able to like, I feel like in that moment, you know, if she didn't feel like she had to defend Henry and didn't have to defend her decision,

like her mom could have helped her out, you know? Like it seems like her parents want what's best for her and she loves them. And even though it's like, it seems like her and her mom argue a lot, but they love each other, it seems like a generally good relationship. But you see her struggle with that at the very beginning.

And then you also see Henry be a bad husband for, I guess, the first time as a husband, where he comes back and then he sees conflict and he just turns around and leaves. He doesn't, after Karen has spent this whole scene defending him when he doesn't deserve it, he can't be there to support her for even a second. That's kind of his thing.

And then you see the scene with the mob wives, which I would love to talk about. Yeah, another scene where we get, the whole scene is told from Karen's point of view, we get her voiceover some more. She's she's like yeah I realized that we weren't married to you know nine to five guys but it wasn't until I hung out with the other wives that I realized how different things were and she's like hurling some criticisms toward them which like she does make it about their looks in a way that is...

I mean, look, Karen is a flawed character. Sure. I think that there's like moments where it's interesting because it's like Karen can be pretty judgmental towards and cruel to other women, but in general, it's nothing that she wouldn't also say or do to a man, I was finding, where it like, I mean, this comes up more in like the Janice storyline. So we'll get there, but like, I did feel like it was, she wasn't wrong to, you know,

especially at the point she's at, like it's almost like she's looking into what could be her future of like, which we find out is kind of her future of like, this violence is very normalized, it's something you can talk about openly in a community setting, like it's something you have to deal with in your day to day life if you're married to someone like doing crime all the time.

Right, and her main takeaway from that scene is, like when she goes back home and is talking to Henry, she's like, what if you went to jail? Because she heard the other wives talking about how some of their husbands are arrested, like got arrested and are in jail. And so she's expressing concern about like, what would happen if you went to prison?

Like, what would that mean for me? And like, the stakes concern about like, what would happen if you went to prison? What would that mean for me? And like, the stakes are very high, Henry. And he's just like, don't worry about it. And then he says something very racist. And he's basically addressing her concerns. But the fact that she even has concerns is like, again, more than the Godfather ever did. Absolutely. Like it's so, yeah, and we'll talk about this movie's racism in a bit.

But again, it's like so, not just good for the genre of mob movies that's so male-dominated and like male-perspective-dominated, but also just like good for the storytelling of the movie that we get these scenes with her because it's like, I feel like for Karen, as much as a lot of guys would like to think they're Henry Hill, I feel like most of us are coming in Karen to this movie of like, you don't know what you would do in that situation. Like you're fucking kidding yourself

if you think you just know what you would do, you don't. And like seeing Karen have to grapple with that directly. situation like you're fucking kidding yourself if you think you just know what you would do you don't and like seeing Karen have to grapple with that directly and I do want to quote what she says because it's pretty it's pretty aggressive towards the other women they had bad skin and too much makeup I mean they didn't look very good they looked beat up a bit aggressive but it's like keeping in mind that she's coming from like a pretty, again, I was like, boring isn't the right word, but like she's from a pretty ordinary like middle-class background. Like she's not used to seeing women who look or talk like this and she's being, you know,

judgy in her head. But then yeah, like she always like will express her concern to Henry, at least in the beginning, because it seems like she's going into this relationship thinking that they are mostly equals, or as much as you could be at this time. But he's just a liar. He's a bad fella. He's a bad fella.

I mean. And he's cocky. I mean, I do believe he thinks he'll never go to jail in that scene. Oh, yeah. But that sets, I mean, which, oh, there's this shot later in the movie that I was just like is so good

or like made me think back to that scene when it's like the scene where Henry's about to go to jail and he's like at the bar, like talking to all the people he's about to go to jail with and she's sitting in the background of the scene and she's just like looking at him like she wants to snap his fucking neck because now she has to raise their kids.

Two kids, yeah. On her own for 10 years or however long he's in fucking jail for. And I just thought back to that scene off of, she doesn't even say anything in that scene but just that one shot, I was like, oh yeah, he, full of shit, promised you he was never gonna go to jail, there's no way.

And now you have to raise two kids by yourself for the better part of a decade. It's just like, oh my Karen, my sweet Karen. Yeah, and then one of the things, and maybe this is a whole separate discussion, but one of the things I appreciate about this movie, and you could make the argument that perhaps not enough was done in this regard either as far as

like the movie leveling criticism against this lifestyle and the people in it and their horrible behavior and toxicity and all that stuff. Because, you know, hearing what a lot of the fans have to say, it doesn't seem like they necessarily recognize the criticism all the time. But, you know, I think that this movie does more to offer a critical commentary, you know, on the horrible things that they do, more so than the Godfather.

For sure. And one of the ways they do that is to show how horribly these men treat women. They are abusive to women in every imaginable way. There's a scene that really struck me, and it's a quick moment, but they're at a Christmas party. and it's a quick moment, but they're at a Christmas party. And listening, and they're probably, it's the only, my only note is like, they're not listening to Joe Pesci's album, which is kind of weird because I'm pretty sure he's at the party.

So he could just kind of start performing it, but whatever. He should karaoke his own song. But anyways, yeah, Christmas party. Right, Christmas party, Right, Christmas party. Tommy has a girlfriend, I don't think we ever learned her name and that might be the only scene we see her in. But Tommy says something to her like,

he's like, I gotta go over here, don't look at anybody else. Like don't, basically saying don't look at any other men. And then she turns to the woman beside her and says, oh, he's so jealous. If I even look at someone else, he'll kill me. But her tone is very much like, isn't it amazing how much he loves me and cares about me?

And then the other woman responds with, that's great. And like, it's clear satire, you know, or it's just like clear, like, you're meant to watch this and and like be horrified by Their reactions to this and again, it's not the women's fault like women have historically been conditioned to feel this way about What a man's love and affection is supposed to look like right? So they're just responding to societal conditioning. But the movie is presenting this information as like,

and isn't that horrible? Like that's horrible for these women being so mistreated and abused by these men. Right, and like that is what your condition to believe love looks like, which is a lot of Karen's early stuff as well. Exactly. I will say, I think that the girlfriends are generally,

I actually was not, when the girlfriends were first introduced, I was sort of like, oh no, are we about to just get a bunch of poorly written bimbo stereotype characters? Because I feel like the girlfriend, quote unquote, is often written that way. But again, Nick and Marty, they give you, I mean, and I think that, I totally agree

that that moment you just described at the Christmas party was a pretty solid moment of satire. And then, I mean, we don't need to pivot into this discussion all the way yet, but Janice, who's Henry's girlfriend, who ends up, it ends up becoming serious enough that he gets her an apartment. She sort of, there's like kind of this secondary

social scene that seems relegated strictly to people that know that they are the girlfriend of a married mobster. And you know, Karen is kept completely away from this world, even though she's well aware it exists and is getting increasingly upset about it. But I sort of was like, oh, is Janice just gonna be written off as like the bimbo stereotype?

And again, justice for bimbos, bimbos rule. But again, you do get not as much inside. I think that there could have been more space for Janice in this story. And she does kind of like, she's referenced a few other times, but she never really like, she hasn't come back in a meaningful way. But you do get like a moment of insight into her struggle and her predicament in this story where you get the part of like, I mean Henry uses the exact same tactics with Janice as he did with Karen where he provides for her

financially and then when she gets in trouble at work, he beats the shit out of somebody because that's the only way he knows how to show love because he's a broken person. So she already is kind of set up with the same degree of emotional abuse to some extent and or just at least control aspects that Karen is on top of knowing that she is supposed to be a secret. And that scene between her and Karen, even though they never like speak face to face and this doesn't pass the Bechdel test because it's I mean, does it pass the Bechtel test with Karen dealing at you and you're just crying in your apartment, afraid?

I don't think so. But it's a meaningful interaction where Karen. And this is like, you know, I just think we'll we'll get to this in a second. But like Karen is, you know, trying to scare and intimidate Janice out of associating with Henry ever again. She's saying horrible things about her. She's threatening to tell the landlord that a quote unquote whore is living at this house.

She's slut shaming her, she's calling her horrible names, and Janice is just sitting upstairs, miserable in this house, that the only other time we've seen her in this house, she's been she's like showing it off she's like Henry loves me so much we have so much sex here blah blah blah but then the only other time you see her she's completely alone and she's scared and she's miserable and it's sad like it's sad that scene makes me so sad for both of those characters

because it's the sort of thing where it's just like, women need to unionize. Like, go upstairs, have a talk with Janice, and then both of you guys go kill Henry, you know? Like, let's whack Henry. I understand why that doesn't happen in the movie, but like, it could have been fun. But, Karen comes close to killing him,

or thinks about killing him him because she's like, Henry wasn't the star of the movie. I thought she would have done it. Right. So there's the scene where she's, Karen knows about Henry's infidelity. He's been neglecting her needs. He's just been a bad husband. And so you wonder, why might Karen stay with him? And the movie offers us insight into that too, where she's pointing a gun at his face, and then her voiceover says, like, how could I hurt him?

I couldn't even bring myself to leave him. The truth was, no matter how bad I felt, I was still very attracted to him. Why should I give him to someone else? Why should she win? And again, that's like, that feels like a simplification of what's going on, but you can imagine like, what's actually going on beneath the surface is like,

she is an abused spouse and that takes a toll on people. And it seems like a lot of the abuse he's leveling at her is like, you need me. I'm the source of income here. What would you do without me? She needs his support the way that a lot of abused women in a relationship need some form of support that their spouse is offering.

And unfortunately, in the same way that Janice needs the support. Right. Yeah. And that intergenerary, so yeah, she goes back, and you really do think she might kill Henry. But also she knows, first of all, I do think that she loves him, which always

makes being an abused partner even worse. But on top of that, like you're saying, if she kills him, everyone loses. She has to think of her children because her husband certainly hasn't. She has to think of herself. And it's like, if Henry's gone, how are they going to survive? Even if they're generally happier probably in the short term, but the long term, you know, and I understand, but also I do love that because when that scene happens between Karen and Janice, I was like, okay, even if in the dynamics of this movie,

I don't think that that is like, I don't think it was a thoughtless choice to have her do that because I think showing, you know, an abused woman at the end of her rope, I think very often you see, trying to phrase this correctly or like, but like how turning women on women in movies is a well worn trope, but it is based in something that is real and something that I like that women are so often put in competition with each other because we're conditioned to believe

there's only room for so many. And so- As we've discussed a number of times on the show. Right, and so like that on top of the fact that she is already in this horrible relationship and now she's finding out that there's another person that she's been lied to about repeatedly. I understand you know and she has so little power in her relationship that of course in her mind it makes more sense

to go to the only person who has less power than her and this dynamic like regardless of the gender of the person. I was like it makes sense that she goes and tries to rip Janice's head off because she feels like she can't go to Henry, but then she does go to Henry and she almost blows his head off. And you're just like, well, that's what I mean when I say it's like, yeah, Janice is not always kind

to women, but she's got enough rage to spread around to fucking everybody. It doesn't seem like she has a particular issue with women, she just has like, she's just surrounded by issues and that. Oh, sorry, you said Janice, but you mean Karen. Oh, sorry, I mean Karen, I mean Karen. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Karen goes after Janice because Janice has less power than her. Right, right, right. And Karen needs to feel like she has some sort of control over her life. And then she goes to Henry to try to wrest some control back from him, but she can't. And she sort of control over her life. And then she goes to Henry to try to wrest some control back from him, but she can't. And she sort of knows that, and he definitely knows that.

And so then he ends up beating her down anyways and intimidating her even more because he knows that he holds all the power in this relationship. And that is like, what abusers do. And it just like, it's upsetting to watch play out, but it felt like everything made sense. And I honestly wasn't expecting the movie to let Karen shove a gun in his face.

That was really cathartic and cool, and even though she quote unquote loses that, and he does continue to cheat on her because the only time you hear about Janice again is when you find out that she's visiting him in prison. Right and then she rightfully calls Henry out being like, look I'm the one smuggling in all this crap for you, let her be the one

who's raising your kids and smuggling all this shit in. I'm doing all this labor, emotional, and household and otherwise for you, and you're giving me no gratitude, and you're receiving visits from your girlfriend. And she's like very rightfully extremely pissed off. And she also says in that scene that she's like, also, no one talks to me anymore.

She's lost her whole community because of how fucking sloppy and bad at his job fucking Henry is. Like, he's not even good at being a good fella. He's bad at being a good fella. Yeah, and so she does get to get those moments and then eventually, you know, after 25 years, she fucking leaves them. And so it is like it's, I don't know, I just I love that we get so much of her and I know

that, you know, not everyone is going to love her character. But I think a woman of her generation and her predicament, getting insights into what she was going through, into what the pressures on her were, and getting to see her fuck up, I just thought it was really cool, because I think the only thing about Karen that I was just like, okay, I mean, obviously being cruel to Janice was not necessary,

but I can't bring myself to judge her too harshly for it. I just wish that they had been in a social climate that would have encouraged them to talk to each other because things always get better when women talk to each other and turn on. Well, that's the thing too, because she had grown accustomed to the mob life, which is riddled with violence,

like her now, her go-to response to something is to respond with violence, because as she says in her voiceover, that became normal to her. So, yeah, she responds to Janice and Henry with threats of violence. She's a better good fellow than Henry. But true, but my only thing about,

and I don't think that the movie is endorsing this behavior, it just made me sad to see, was how when Karen is in moments of feeling desperate and needing to wrest control back from Henry to some degree. She is not above weaponizing her own children. And that, I think that the movie is very well aware that that's what she's doing,

because there's that moment where it's one shot, but it's in the scene where Karen is first yelling at Henry about the fact that he clearly has a girlfriend. And you just get this long shot of their, like, three-year-old daughter watching this whole thing play out. And it's like, okay, so the movie, unlike The Godfather again, is interested in how this really toxic, horrible relationship dynamic is gonna affect their children,

because of course it is. And then you see later when Karen shows up at Janice's place, she brings both of her daughters, I think sort of as pawns to demonstrate, like this is why you need to get out of my life. He has children, you need to get the fuck away. And I think also, unfortunately, I think in this genre, sometimes why you would have children around

is to make sure a violent confrontation doesn't take place. So yeah, I think that that was fucked up of Karen. If I was their kids, it would probably be coming up in therapy for me a bit. Again, therapy with Karen Brockow. With Karen! And the Sopranos. Sopranos?

I don't know. Her name is, her character's name is Jennifer in that show. But like, but in any case, like you can see how, again, I feel like, but as much as that is bad for the fictional children, I think that that is a cool grounded choice by the movie to demonstrate a woman who feels she has no other option. And like, it doesn't make it morally okay. I don't think in the eyes of the movie either,

because the movie will draw your attention to the kids several times when their parents are fighting. To make it clear, it's like, yeah, kids obviously fucking notice their little sponges. But I think it's like, I thought it was a good choice to do that with Karen in that she's not the like, selfless, perfect mother character that we,

I think, will often see in underwritten female characters. Like, she's like, not a perfect mother. She's not a perfect mother. She's not, I don't think she's a bad parent, but she's not a perfect mother. And you can still, as a viewer, really love and empathize with her, even though that is clear. Yeah, I agree.

Karen! The less. I want to share a quote from a review about this movie from the New York Times published when it came out, so 1990 by Susan Linfield entitled, Goodfellas Looks at the Banality of Mob Life. It is speaking about the actor who plays Karen, so quote, Ms. Bracco, despite having known Mr. De Niro and Mr. Scorsese for years through her husband, the actor Harvey Keitel, says she found the shoot an emotionally difficult one because she was playing the lone woman character in a very brutal, very male world. And then this review shares a quote from Lorraine Bracco

that goes as follows. If I didn't make my work important, it would probably end up on the cutting room floor. Marty said to me, I know you think I only make men's movies, but I really love this character Karen. But I think if Push came to shove, if the performance wasn't there, he would have geared the film more to Rey and the boys, so I felt a little bit of extra pressure on me."

Totally. Her concerns are not unfounded. No. Yeah, so obviously she's just speaking to how, as the one female character in the movie, she felt all this extra pressure to, like, if I don't do an incredible, amazing, fantastic job, my part is in danger of, like, being scaled way back on and, like, cut out of the narrative.

Because you hear that all the time, where, like, an actor is in a movie, but then they're like, whoops, they cut my scenes, so I'm actually not in the movie. And that's something that women have discussed, dealing with all the time, people of color have discussed, the pressure to be the absolute best at a thing, to just be on the same level as like Cishet white men who are pretty

you know I'm not calling Robert De Niro and Ray Liotta mediocre but like what if you were though that would be wild. Some fucking chumps. But just like the the pressure to like give like 200% because marginalized people have to put in so much more effort to prove that they are just as talented and to be taken as seriously as their straight white guy counterparts. Right. And I think that like, honestly, like in the context of that, there is, and this does kind of tie back to this. So I feel like that is symptomatic of a bunch of things where at first it's like, oh yeah, that happens a lot when there's one female character basically,

or one non-white character where it's like, all of the pressure is on you. And I can't speak to what these specific filmmakers think, but I feel like inherently they're aware that their target audience is not as interested in Karen as they are in Henry and so it's easier to make those cuts and already there's kind of this you know at least tokenizing adjacent effect to how Lorraine Bracco is in this movie. And I feel like it also speaks to like the writing of like, they're actually,

because I like, as you were talking about that, I was like, Oh, I think that you actually could scale back Karen's part kind of significantly and have the events play out exactly the same. Yeah, pretty close. Yeah. So as much as this movie does to show you Karen's perspective, that just like demonstrates that this is still ultimately the, you know, Henry's story because you could cut out a lot.

Like, there's a lot of things that in the same way that like, if you added 40 minutes to The Godfather, which you should not, but like, if you added 40 minutes of The Godfather that's really like a meaty in-depth look at what's going on with Connie and Kay, it would be amazing. It would have elevated that movie, but it wouldn't have changed the fact that the men in the story are clearly the drivers

of the story because of. There's a story about Godfathers. These are stories about the good fellas, not the good ladies. Pew pew pew. And again, that's like not a criticism, but it's like, yeah, that's an extraordinary pressure on Laurie Mbraco.

And like she obviously rose to the occasion, but that kind of pressure certainly doesn't help. And the thing that I liked about goodfellas, again, that like the godfather doesn't help. And the thing that I liked about Goodfellas, again, that the Godfather doesn't quite do, even though it's a little, it is funny because it's like Henry Hill, the whole end of the movie is kind of like how history will forget him,

which is funny because obviously it didn't because I'm watching Goodfellas. So it didn't. But I watching Goodfellas. So it didn't. But I like that the kind of core message, unlike the Godfather where it's presented in this very Shakespearean way of like, history will remember these great men. It's all presented in this very grandiose way.

But Goodfellas takes a very different tack where it draws your attention to the end. This lifestyle is very fleeting, you can very easily be forgotten, and hopefully you had a good time, and hopefully it was all worth it for you because this is not the sort of position that history will remember you as. And I just

like that. I mean, whatever. I know there's room for both approaches, but I appreciate where Goodfellas kind of like tackles it from where it also just like draws your attention to like how kind of pathetic you can view Henry as at the end, because he's in the process of doing the one thing Daddy De Niro told him not to do. Don't rat out your friends and keep your mouth shut. And so he is like going against what he's claimed his whole life was about. He's being called a rat in court,

which is fucking brutal. But even then he's still like, I feel like Henry is such a, and it's tricky because you're like, I could totally see how you could be a 15 year old boy and completely miss the fucking point of what's going on here. But I just thought it was so cool and well done of like,

Henry was always about the romantic aspects of the lifestyle. That's why he wanted to do it when he was a kid. It was probably because he saw some neighborhood guys, saw a couple movies, and was like, I wanna do that. And he never even fully took in the message. He only wanted the surface level of the lifestyle. He wanted the respect, he wanted the money.

But when it actually came to the one core, quote unquote, moralistic value that this group has, he doesn't have that. And so he is a rat, and he is kind of a fucking chump, and he sells everyone out to, he never even really got it. He wasn't even a real mobster, because he didn't follow rule number one.

But he is going over all the romantic aspects that initially pulled him to this lifestyle until the very, very end in a way that, I think if I had seen this movie when I was a teenager, I wouldn't have taken it in maybe, but that last scene I was like, oh, he's like pathetic. Like, he's kind of like just-

Loser alert. A fucking loser. Right. Like it's like he's a bad good fella. When I watch the movie, I'm like Henry Hill, loser, rat, coward. Right. Tommy, the most fragile male ego I've ever seen on a person. And will weaponize it against women

and people of color especially. Like he is like very misogynist and racist while also presenting as inherently likable, which I think is a really, really difficult tone to strike while still clearly condemning the views of the character. That and I see Jimmy and I'm like, he was gonna have his friends, his wife murdered because loyalty means nothing to these people.

It's all about, I mean, Jimmy is just a capitalist through and through. He will choose money over anything, over connections with other humans, who cares, as long as I'm rich and I can steal stuff and become richer. Right, he might shed a tear here and there, but it's not gonna stop him from whacking Tommy. Right, so all these men are pathetic.

Yeah. And the movie seems to recognize that and put that on display. And I wanna imagine, and again, it's like I haven't read Wise Guys. But I would imagine that a lot of the, and again, listeners, if you have done more reading into this than we have, which wouldn't be hard,

we hate books, but I guess just off of the perception of these two movies, and I don't mind pitting these movies against each other because who cares? But technically both of these movies were based in some degree of research, but I feel like you can tell which movie is based on some degree of research. But I feel like you can tell which movie is based on source material of like a guy who wrote fiction and was really into the mob and a journalist

who was reporting on the mob and doesn't necessarily have these romantic connections to mob guys. And I feel like that's why, I mean, one of the reasons, because I feel like Karen being very much at the center of the story for a lot of the movie is another huge reason that I prefer Goodfellas to The Godfather. But I also like that it just feels like a more grounded way.

If the goal is to show mob life versus glorifying mob life, I feel like Goodfellas does a far better job. Not perfect, because obviously, I mean, a lot of mostly men still manage to take away the completely wrong message from it. But I also like that it's like, yeah, it seems to be based in actual reporting versus observation that borders on admiration right on Mario

Puzo's part and the fact that it's like I I watched this bravely on HBO Max did you did you watch the little Marty feature at before that they had I did but it was two weeks ago okay and I didn't rewatch it so it's not very fresh I can't remember exactly what he was saying. So I rewatched it this morning and I really, first of all, what a cute little guy. Just truly, you just gotta love this guy. But on top of that, he spoke to a lot of,

it's like a 10 minute I think feature at the very beginning, it's like a TCM thing, but he spoke to a lot of, it's like a 10 minute, I think, feature at the very beginning, it's like a TCM thing, but he spoke to kind of his personal connection to this story, which I feel like also really helps in just understanding what the filmmaker's motivation was in making it where it's like this character, like Henry Hills, I believe a little bit older than Scorsese,

but like Scorsese grew up in Brooklyn. He also grew up very, very fascinated in buying into the romance of the mob life in the same way that Henry did. And so it's like, he's able to kind of like come from a very personal place and like explore it. And also, I mean, just going back to what you were just saying about these men

ultimately being pathetic, take it all the way through. So, okay, I have this quote, because it's like by the end of the movie, Henry is not only acting very, very selfishly, because of his lifestyle, has fallen into addiction. He has fallen into repeatedly putting his loved ones at risk in a very selfish way and a way that he doesn't even seem to realize he's doing. And just like he's just completely come undone as a person. Here's what Marty has to say. Quote, the main character of the film is the lifestyle itself.

And that brings some certain things to the fore. Lots of discussions about glamorizing in a sense of this lifestyle. But if you see how it proceeds, then you see ultimately the final reckoning, and you see that it's not something to be desired. Yet, I wanted to explore what is the attraction to these people and why are you watching? Which I think is like a very to these people and why are you watching? Which I think is like a very valid place to come from is like, cause he's right, you do see, you know, the more glamorous aspects of the mob.

You see the, you know, I kind of like that it's sloppier and like less organized than it is in The Godfather, but like, but you also see the fact that everyone involved, their lives are completely fucking destroyed and it's kind of implied that it was all But you also see the fact that everyone involved, their lives are completely fucking destroyed, and it's kind of implied that it was all for basically nothing by the end. Right, I mean, because I think most people would look at certain aspects of that lifestyle

and think, again, certain aspects of it are glamorous. Just like Karen did when she started Daini Henry. Exactly, just the lavishness of it, the access to nice expensive things, those things are seductive to a lot of people. Right, but it's like all fleeting and. Right, and so the movie's agenda, I think, is to be like, sure, we can all understand

why someone would be seduced by this, but remember how there's all this fucked up shit. Don't be a good fella. Don't be, if you're gonna do, it's a cautionary tale against being a good fella. Exactly. But yeah, I think it is like effective in that way. I get why people watch it the wrong way, but I'm just like, well,

it's kind of not Marty's problem. I don't know what to say. But like, but also, I mean, it is that, that is also symptomatic of like being a filmmaker, but also just like existing in a larger movie culture that is always going to prioritize men at the center of stories. Because that is where that problem kind of stems from. If every single movie you've ever made

is centered around a male character, of course you're at a higher risk for, you know, audience members with like not, I don't know a way to sound it that doesn't sound like fucking like coastal elite little bitch, but like, you know, like someone who's not gonna like be thinking super, super hard about like the subtext, like of course it's gonna be higher at risk for that to happen, which I think is why it happens

to mainly filmmakers who make movies about men, regardless of their gender. Because you see that in, I don't know, like even a lot of like copaganda. Copaganda is made by people of all genders and, you know, like, so anyways. I mean, the way that there are still like, dipshits who think that Elon Musk is awesome

because he's rich and powerful. And it's like, well, no, take one look at anything he's ever said and done, and then you realize what a monster he is. But like, because again, society conditions people to think that money and power are awesome. So if you're able to achieve those things,

that equals awesome. So people are gonna bring their own biases into things and interpret things in a way that I think is fucked up. And I think that Marty and Nick, I think that they did what they could to provide, like I think that all the puzzle pieces are there and whether you choose to connect them is kind of like you that's you bringing your own shit to the table which Is part of the whatever. Yeah silent contract of watching a movie doesn't that sound fun watching a movie

It's like silent a silent social contract scary Can we talk about the casual racism that appears in this movie? Yes, we did bring this up on the Godfather episode two, but yeah, it's definitely worth repeating where all the main characters in this movie are to some degree of Italian descent. And particularly the Tommy character complains about people being prejudiced toward Italians.

There's also a discussion of people being prejudiced toward Italians. There's also a discussion of people being prejudiced towards Jewish people because Karen is from a Jewish family. Right, but then you have someone like Tommy and various other characters turning around and dropping the N-word, talking about Jewish people in disparaging ways. Murdering the only black character who appears in the entire fucking movie.

You have Samuel L. Jackson in the movie. He's in there for two seconds. It was like, use him. Could you be serious? Are you serious? I gasped, I did not know he was in this movie. I was like, well, that's to be like, that's like pre-famous, right?

Pre-famous Sam Jackson? He was, I think, he was up and coming, but yeah, certainly not the name that he is now. But yeah, he's in the movie for like, maybe a total of 15 seconds. And he's violently, brutally murdered. I would- I think the only thing you can say for that scene

is that you don't see it. Like, it happens just out of frame. But like, even so, it's fucking- of frame. But like even so it's fucking. It's still really hard to, it's still very brutal. Like you see like the blood splatter. It's like, it's ugh. And like aside from his character and I think like a doctor who gives Valium to Henry Hill.

Yes. This is a version of New York where there are almost no people of color living and working there. Or at very least the movie has no interest in showing it. Right. And like, I again am like, I wonder how pulled from historical precedent sequences like that are, because it also is like, you know,

dishonest to portray New Yorkers in the 60s and 70s as being extremely tolerant or as non-black New Yorkers as being extremely tolerant. But this movie like doesn't really have any interest in exploring any of it. I think it's almost like Tommy's mask off racism I think more so than any other character, like repeatedly. Because there is more of like a character trait

to show you how insecure he is, not something that the movie's actually interested in exploring because if they were interested in exploring it, there would be a black character in the movie who's in the movie for longer than a minute. Right, exactly. So it is like, I was frustrated with like the use of, you know, realistic for the time racism,

but like the, I was frustrated that like, you know, racism was used as a shorthand to be like, well, this guy isn't as friendly as he seems. He's very racist. And you're like, okay, like, I don't know. I did think it was, I guess, I don't know. It stuck with me, I guess, that in the first scene with the girlfriends,

Tommy's girlfriend mentions that, I think she says, oh, I saw Sammy Davis Jr. perform and he's so handsome, I totally understand why people have a crush on him and stuff. And Tommy, being both racist and deeply insecure like goes nuts about this and says a series of racist things like that I don't even care to repeat,

but I thought it was interesting that the movie chose to like hang on that moment because it does make it clear, like I don't even know how to feel about it, but like it does make it clear how like don't even know how to feel about it, but it does make it clear how his male fragility and white fragility are overlapping in that scene in a way that is uncomfortable for people at the table, but no one says anything.

And the girlfriend, because I don't know, I was assuming because of her, you know, lack of power in this dynamic has to like back off of a very innocuous comment about a hot man being hot. Right. Exactly. And I don't know, I just thought it was interesting that the movie, because it's not like an important, well, it could have been cut. So I just thought it was interesting that it was left as a way to like show you a very specific way that Tommy's different toxic insecure qualities were like intersecting in this weird moment. For sure. Let's see, do you have anything else you wanna touch on? I do appreciate that the movie shows you how corrupt

and easily bought off cops are. The police, yes. I also like that. I don't think I have really very much else to say about it. I mean, yeah, I think it's, ultimately I liked how one dog was facing east and the other dog was facing west. I wrote in my notes,

feminist icon Tommy's mom's painting. True, which was apparently Nick Pelleggio's mom's painting. I really liked, there were a lot of very sweet, personal touches that you're just like, you gotta love Marty. Both his parents are in the movie. His mother's a sweetheart. Wait, who does his dad play?

I didn't recognize it in the movie, but he plays, Charles Scorsese plays Vinny, which could be fucking anybody who knows. But I think that that's like a thing for Scorsese is his parents are in almost all of his movies for as long as they're alive. Like it's very, very sweet. Yeah, cause it's, if you look at,

if you look at Charles Scorsese's I am DB Wikipedia page, it's he's in taxi driver. He is in raging bull. He's in king of comedy. He's in Muppets take Manhattan. I don't even know why he's in that one. There's a lot of Muppet crossovers also. Yeah, he's in Moonstruck.

Why is he in Moonstruck? He's Italian, New York, pasta meatball cannon. I just think it's very, I just think that that's like yet another way that you're like, what a sweetie pie. Also, well, speaking of some production things, people who were in or worked on the movie, this movie has an editor who is a woman, Thelma Schoonmaker. Love that.

Maybe how you pronounce that. And she was nominated for an Academy Award for the editing on this movie. She's a bit of a legend. She's Martin Scorsese's go-to editor to this day. And the editing in this movie is really solid. So, shout out Thelma. The production designer is a woman, Christa Zia,

and a woman was the executive producer on this movie Barbara DeFina Which you know, we just tend to mention these things because those are roles often that men occupy to this day especially on like major Hollywood productions, so Cool that you've got a handful of very major roles occupied by women. Yeah, and I totally agree. I mean, the editing in this movie is wild. There's so many cuts. It's so much, like I just got stressed out watching it

because I was like, someone was in the trenches. But yeah, did she win? She did not win. The only, this movie was nominated for six Academy Awards the only one that it received was for Joe Pesci's supporting actor and I think Okay, so does this movie pass the Bechdel test? It does not unless you count one dog facing East and one dog facing West

It's passing the Bechel test which in a way Two bitches with their back to each other? I don't think that passes the Bechtel test There is very little in the way of women interacting in this movie aside from that one scene where it's a bunch of the mob wives Mostly gossiping with each other because women be gossiping. And there might be a stray, I mean it's possible, because there's possible there's a stray interaction. I would say spiritually it doesn't, because it's like yeah.

I agree. Mob Wives scene, you have a scene where I may have caught, like there's like maybe a single exchange inside of Karen talking to her mother that passes, but they're mostly talking about her marriage. About Henry, yeah. And then she screams into the intercom at Janice's apartment, but Janice is crying.

Does not respond. Is it narratively important? Yes, but it is all about Henry. I don't think we ever see her like, have a conversation with her daughters. I kind of thought honestly that because there was that lingering shot on their oldest daughter watching them fight that Maybe the daughters would have just like appeared a little more meaningfully later on but it's not a big criticism I just sort of thought yeah, this movie does not really care about the children No, and Bob will, and to be fair, neither do their parents.

So. Fair point. So yeah, no, I do not think this movie passes the Bechdel test. At least not the way we play it. But our nipple scale though. The nipple scale. Oh boy, you know, kind of tricky.

I wanna do a split down the middle for this one. It might seem cheating, but I'm going to give it 2.5 nipples. Because comparing it to a movie like The Godfather, it's doing a lot more as far as characterizing the women slash mostly just that one woman of Karen and giving the audience insight into her feelings, her perspective, all the things that she's dealing with and all of the things that the movie, The Godfather, did not bother to do because it just clearly did not give a shit about the women who occupy this world.

This movie seems to care a lot more about that, but it's ultimately still a story about the good fellas. Brave of you to say. You know, you might not know it, but Good Fellas is about the Goodfellas. But they're bad, Caitlin. So they're bad. And the movie is like, it's offering criticism about the Goodfellas and actually maybe saying

that they're not Goodfellas, that they are perhaps badfellas. Devil Fathers. Yeah, bad fellas. Devil fathers, yeah, bad guys. But at the end of the day, there's still only one woman that the movie has any real concern about. Still focuses on the men. I don't know, just, you know,

it's a step in the right direction, but. Yeah, I view it as kind of like in the genre of like, it's like a super myopic genre, right? Where it's only interested in a very, very, very specific group of men. And it doesn't really stray out of the myopic focus, but of the movies that we've covered that have this myopic focus, but like of the movies that we've covered that have this myopic focus,

it does the most and gets the most mileage out of that myopic focus. Because obviously there's a ton of people excluded when the focus is this specific. But this is the most I've seen of like taking interest in everyone in this myopic focus. Yeah. Which isn't to say it's perfect. Right, exactly. So it's complicated, but even so, I'll give it two and a half nipples.

I'll give one nipple to the dog that's facing east. I'll give one nipple to the dog that's facing west. And then, that's not fair. I'll give one nipple to Karen. I'll give one nipple to Tommy's mom, AKA Mrs. Scorsese, who's just giving the performance of a lifetime. Her whole thing is- She improvised that whole scene.

Yeah. How amazing is that? She took some UCB classes, if I've ever seen it. Oh boy, did she. I love that her whole, I mean, I love, I think it's funny that her whole thing is, Tommy, why don't you find a wife and settle down? Like your friend Henry here. Why can't?

He's like, Mom, too busy fucking a different woman every night, leave me alone. Wait till I tell my friend Macaulay about this. I like to think that Joe Pesci would be on set. Leave me alone. Wait till I tell my friend McCauley about this there I like to think that Joe Pesci would be on set this is like So fake but this is like I just heard of Hollywood today I think that Joe Pesci would be on set of good fellows from 8 a.m

Until 1 p.m. And then he'd drive over to home alone and be slipping and sliding around for the rest of the day. Wow. He's a busy guy that Joe. He's got a lot on his plate. Bless his heart. So okay, so one nipple to Karen, one nipple to Tommy's mom and I'll give my half nipple to feminist icon, the dog painting. I'm going to go two and a half as well.

Like we've been talking about this whole time, you know, like as far as a mob movie that focuses on the Italian-American mob in the mid-20th century, of which there are so many movies. So many of those. This is my favorite one that I've seen. But also, if you're a listener and you have seen one that you like even more, I would be curious to see it.

Honestly, I might not watch it. I feel like I get it. But I would be curious to see it. Honestly, I might not watch it. I feel like I get it. But I actually really did enjoy this movie. I think that if you're stacking these movies against each other, which is sort of kind of what we've been doing this month, intentionally or not, if you've gotta have two white guys

coming at this material, I feel far better about Scorsese and a man that Nora Ephron deems worthy of love than of the other team. However, I do think that both movies are really, really good. I understand why they hold their place in history. I still want my Connie and Kay Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead movie. I'm giving this movie two and a half nipples

because I think that you made an excellent point at the end that there were women meaningfully involved behind the camera, which you don't hear a lot about. To this day, this movie's over 30 years old. I think Marty, he's got a shit together. So I give it two and a half. I'm gonna give one to Karen, and I'm gonna give one to Marty's mother.

And then I'll give my last half to Joe Pesci saying, oh shit. And then getting his head blown off. That's the episode folks. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked it, you can check out other similar wacky wild matri on episodes. Cause we only unlock like, I don't know,

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