The Bechdel Cast - Hairspray (2007) with Keah Brown

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

Teen dancers Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Keah Brown can't stop the beat while discussing Hairspray (2007). Buy Keah's novel The Secret Summer Promise, out now! https://www.levinequerido.com/the-secret-summer-promise (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @Keah_Maria  on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante, and @jamieloftusHELPSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

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if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast good morning bechdel cast oh love it oh there's that's oh i wish i had time to come up with a second every day Every day is like a Bechtelcast. Every night's like a Bechtelcast. Every sound's on the Bechtelcast. We just lost all of our listeners all at once.

I enjoyed it personally. Thank you, Kia. We gained a billion more. The world's going to wake up and see Bechtel cast and me us that's you the listener exactly it's i oh i don't know what i was gonna say oh i was gonna say this is like that i just had a really scary flashback to like the one year I was doing musical improv and most lines I was firing off sounded a little something like that rhyming the word with the word. Word. God, I am so jealous of people who can do musical improv. And that is a very embarrassing

thing about me. No, it's really impressive. It requires so so many different skills i know yeah and i'm also really jealous of people who can sing in general like so how dare you it's not nice it's not nice i would be such a problem if i could sing oh my god i'd have no friends they'd be like kia shut up and i'd be like i don't know how i i used to really like i had a huge theater kid phase and then i went to uh school with a theater program and then you're kind of forced out of being a theater kid because you're like oh these theater kids can sing and i resented them for a while but then i'm like you know what if i could sing like that i guess i would be annoying as shit too. And some people just

have the gift, they can be annoying forever. So I mean, so I think we have that gift. We've been annoying for a very long time. We are so annoying. Anyways, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. What is the Bechdel test though? I'll tell you or Jamie if you want to. Jeez. Okay. I'll tell you. I was like, wow, they're really going for it today. Okay. The Bechdel Test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace Test. Originally created as a bit, as a goof, for Alison Bechdel's incredible comic collection, Dykes to Watch Out For. You got to read it.

It's a classic. It's also getting adapted for TV. I don't know when it comes out, but it's turning into an animated show that I'm very excited to watch. Anyways, a lot of different versions of this test. It's sort of become it's sort of it's become extremely popular over the years. But the one we use is this. We require that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names talking to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more and it has to be a an impactful

exchange it just does it is what it is if you don't like it you can get the fuck out many uh movie musicals pass this many movie musicals don't And we'll just leave it at that for now. Because today we're covering a movie musical. That's right. It's our Hairspray episode. Yes. Specifically the one from 2007, which we were almost going to do an episode on back in, I want to say 2018 or 2019, when we famously on our Patreon aka Matreon covered we called it different things sometimes it was March Efron sometimes it was Zach March Ron basically we were doing Zach

Efron March I don't remember if we actually observed this in the month of March I would say it's safe to say that we didn't. Right, exactly. Most likely we did not. We knew that we had many, many, many requests for Hairspray 2007, but we didn't end up doing it because we wanted other perspectives aside from our own. Hence, bringing on our guest, who you know her from episodes on Cadet Kelly, Brandy Cinderella from 1997, Ever After, and she's a journalist and author of the brand new novel, The Secret Summer Promise. It's Kia Brown. Yay!

Welcome back! Welcome back! I'm so excited to be here. You know I love you two, so this is going to be great. We love you too. Congratulations on the book. We're so excited to be here. You know I love you, too. So this is going to be great. We love you, too. Congratulations on the book. We're so excited. Thank you.

I love it. I'm obsessed. Please buy it. Thank you. So what's your relationship with Hairspray 2007? Oh, I'm obsessed with it. Like, genuinely obsessed. It's one of my pick-me-up movies.

When I need to feel something good yeah i put it on sometimes i sing along sometimes i'm just like deeply engrossed in what's happening you know i know some of the lines back and forth and like it's just a vibe i'm deeply obsessed with it and the majority of that obsession has nothing to do with Zac Efron. Like he's great in it, but he's not why I keep coming back. Sure. Fair. Yeah. He's not the main attraction. James Marston is. No, I'm kidding. Absolutely. No way.

I mean, I was like, hold on. Cause I think that a lot of people would agree with that. I love James Marston and sorry to not be passing the Bechdel test right now. But, um, and I hope this ages well. Because you never know when you say, I love a man. I've regretted saying that many times on this podcast. Yeah, we've had to rescind a lot of famous and otherwise. Right.

But I'm a big Marsden fan, I would say. The man's got range. He does. Maybe not in the movement of his face necessarily but he's got range he can do anything i thought he was just a treat in the sonic the hedgehog movies i love the guy yeah and he's amazing in that new uh injury duty he's so good he's amazing he's perfect goodness gracious he's perfect this is my favorite, or I guess like second most impactful James Marsden performance right behind Enchanted. Because I think he's pretty close to perfect in Enchanted.

He is perfect. Yeah, this is my number one. This to me is his magnum opus. Did I use that correctly? I think so. Yeah. He really was born to be Corny Collins. He was.

Oh, we're going to get it. We're going to get into it. I'm pumped. Jamie, what is your relationship with Hairspray? Oh, I also loved the hell out of this movie. I saw it the second it came out. There's like, for better or for worse, I love basically every movie musical that came out in the 2000s. Most of this love is purely nostalgia based when I rewatch them because you're just like, hmm.

Hmm. Joel Schumacher, Phantom of the Opera. Hmm. Does it hold up? No. Will I watch it again? Of course. Chris Columbus, Rent.

Hmm. Even worse. Even worse. Tsk, tsk. But and yet I continue to watch Chicago Chicago now that holds up I watched that not two days ago I really love it and and Hairspray I think Hairspray and Chicago are the two movie musicals from this like era that holds up the best. I think it's a great adaptation. And I for the I had never seen before I was prepping for this episode, I'd never seen the original John Waters 1988 one with Divine and Ricky Lake. So I went back and watched it, expecting that I would like it better because

I feel like that's the general what you expect. The original is usually better. But with all due respect to my king, John Waters, the musical rips, it needs the songs, it needs the songs that it needs James Morrison. And that's just kind of the beginning, middle and end. Those are objective facts. If Divine could be in the movie adaptation, it would be the perfect movie in terms of me smiling there we have plenty of notes like perfect movie uh in every way many thoughts that we will share we have about two hours on uh on what's not perfect about it uh but yeah i love hairspr. I listened to and I also loved Nikki Blonsky so much. And I'm still angry to this day that she didn't have a bigger career coming off of Hairspray. I deeply agree. Right? I remember like her origin story really spoke to me because she worked at Cold Stone Creamery. And they heard her singing there. And I was just like, that is is so magical like she was just like plucked out

of nowhere literally perfectly cast like the perfect Tracy yeah yeah this movie is the best uh and I'm it was interesting to look at it more critically because I hadn't seen it in like maybe four or five years Caitlin what's your history with Hairspray? I saw it somewhere along the way, probably like 2010, when I was first falling in love with Zac Efron. Better late than never, baby. Exactly. I watched it, maybe it was like 2012, who could say even. But as listeners might know, I tend not to gravitate toward live action movie musicals but i will say this one is like campy and colorful enough that it works for me some of them are just too they're taking themselves too seriously or something they need to basically be an animated movie without actually being animated for me to be able to stomach a movie musical. But this one works.

I kind of I kind of wonder. Yeah, it's like I think that I consider the end of like, movie musicals of me seeing every movie musical was when I just could not do the Les Mis adaptation. I couldn't do it. No, thank you. Could not do it could not finish it i was like that's not for me specifically a virgo but it's for somebody someone likes it i'm glad that it that movie is hilarious too because it's like that i think that that's that's the same director as cats yeah an iconic movie musical um but there it's like the i think that that's where that director was like we're

gonna do live singing and for some reason everyone's like good idea but then you listen to the soundtrack and you're like this is not a good idea we shouldn't be hearing russell crowe sing live and i think he'd agree with us yeah yeah it's just as bad as when pierce brosnan sings a song in mama mia oh. Oh, but he's camp. Do you remember the song in Mamma Mia where he sings, like, I don't know, like, his mouth is just, like, full the whole time?

The way he sings S.O.S. is unparalleled. It's like he's been on the joke in a way that I appreciate. Russell Crowe didn't get the memo, unfortunately. So it took me a while to see this hairspray, but I did see the 1988 hairspray written and directed by John Waters. I saw that sometime in college.

So it was like 2005 2006 um i was watching a few john waters movies back then including pink flamingos and i think cry baby was the other one and i because cry baby is a musical i think i assumed the original would be a musical as well but no but it's not and what happened was that the so this movie that we're talking about today is based on the broadway musical adaptation of the original movie from 1988 so it went through a few different evolutions it's funny because we're uh kia after this we're doing uh newsies which is like kind of the opposite journey where it's funny because we're uh kia after this we're doing uh newsies which is like kind of the opposite journey where it's like movie musical and everyone hated it and then they turned it into anyways i love musicals so much i can't believe uh prepping for these episodes reminded me that

we have yet to cover little shop of horrors and how that is a travesty um okay hairspray yeah i i'm i'm really excited to talk about like the history of and like the adaptation changes that were made too because i i knew that john waters allegiance to baltimore is unparalleled um and he lives there to this day but i didn't know how connected the original story for hairairspray was to his childhood. And Hairspray is basically like John Waters' reimagined history of his own childhood. So excited to get into it. Let's take a quick break and then come back for the recap. Hey, everybody. this is Matt Rogers.

And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us

on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course,

the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh, my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind.

Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. And on camera, yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I gotta hawk this slalom, Lugie.

Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente.

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Okay, here is the recap of Hairspray 2007. Everyone's welcome to sing when their favorite songs come up. Yes. Just putting that out there. Okay, so we are famously in Baltimore, Maryland. Ever heard of it? It is 1962. Naturally.

Yes. We meet teenager Tracy Turnblad, played by Nikki Blonsky. We sure do. As she's putting on hairspray and singing Good Morning Baltimore. I love her so much. She's incredible. I love her so much. She's incredible. I love when people have it. It's like one of the easiest ways to get me to fall in love with a character is when they

have deep allegiance to a place that kind of sucks. And that is like the most relatable, wonderful thing in the entire world. I feel nothing when people are like, New York is amazing. You're just like, shut up. That famous like, New York is amazing. You're just like, shut up. Yeah, that famous song. New York is amazing. You know, from the musical, New York is amazing. Well, but the King of New York, Newsies.

I got Newsies in the brain. Anyways, I don't really respond to songs about New York or L.A. because there's a billion of them. But there's only one song about Baltimore that I know of. And it involves Tracy Turnblad going to school in a garbage truck. And that I love. We love a queen. Okay.

That's what she is. Exactly. She misses the school bus. She's going to get on a garbage truck. The song is about how she loves life and she loves Baltimore and she loves dancing. We also get a little cameo from John Waters. He's the flasher who lives next door. And she sings about how she wants to be a star.

She just needs the opportunity. She goes to school. It's boring. And she's really just counting down the minutes when she and her best friend, Penny Pingleton, played by Amanda Bynes. Also perfectly cast. Also perfectly cast. Love her. I forgot that Allison Janney plays Amanda Bynes' mom. And that's really inspired that that happened.

This is an incredible cast. You've got Christopher Walken, you've got Michelle Pfeiffer, basically all of the villains from Batman Returns. You've got Jerry Stiller, John Travolta is there, Brittany Snow, Queen Latifah. It's just wow it's exciting it is a very young oh my gosh wait no uh a very young she she's mainly a composer now who am i thinking of taylor parks for all you pop music heads out there uh she's like a really famous she's she's a artist as well but she's like written a ton of pop songs and she plays Inez. Okay, so Tracy and Penny go home and watch their favorite after school television program called The Corny Collins Show, hosted by Corny Collins, played by James Marsden. I did a tap dance to that in high school.

Whoa. Yeah. Twist. I love when he's like, nice white kids who like to something their day. And once a month we have a media day. I love that song. I'm feeling things. Sing your heart out.

This is now a singing podcast. No experience required so on the corny collins show teens dance that's really just this show the teens are dancing with each other based on like real shows that happened back in the day and this we'll get into this a little like the corny collins show is parodying or mirroring a specific baltimore-based teen dance show that john waters watched growing up that also had a majority white cast and then had uh i believe that they did call it negro day uh in in baltimore at the time so like most of the details of the corny collins show are directly ripped from John Waters' childhood, except for the way the movie ends, which we'll get to.

Yeah. Yes. Okay, so we meet some of the teens who regularly dance on the Courtney Collins show, including Amber, that's Brittany Snow, and Link, that's Zac Efron. And it's also like Link, Zeldaelda tears of the kingdom much anyway we get to know amber and link a little bit they are dating amber is very mean link is nice and tracy has a big crush on link there is this thing with okay i never noticed this before but there is definitely a vibe about Hairspray where for some reason, men, most men in this story are impervious to being bad.

They're all good. Link. No, he's good. Courtney Collins. He's definitely not racist. He's good. The only guy who's questionable is the station manager.

Right. Person above Michelle Pfeiffer's character right yes capitalism the person racism the person yes except he doesn't outwardly he's not as outward about it in the way that michelle pfeiffer is which i find to be hilarious because you would think it would be coming from him to her and then her parodying it but it's just like no she's rogue she's like mask off evil extremely she took her cat woman mask off and she's like

I'm so racist she was like I don't want to be cat woman anymore I don't want to be racist so but she plays such a good villain such a good villain so we meet all these teens who are mostly white and then we learn about this one day of the month that they call negro day which is led by

motor mouth maybel played by queen latifah which is the only time when black people are allowed to dance on the program. Otherwise, the show is completely segregated and white. The show announces that they have a spot, an open spot for a new dancer, and they're holding auditions. And Tracy wants to audition, but her mom, Edna Turnblad, played by John Travolta, is worried that people will laugh at her because Tracy is fat. But her dad, Wilbur, played by Christopher Walken, is like, no, Tracy, if you want it, go for it. Another man who's always good and never bad. I did think, and we'll talk about this later too, re-watching this, I do feel like this movie does a pretty solid job of illustrating how mothers will often project their own issues onto their daughters. And I love that Tracy's like, nope. Yeah, she's like, I'm good, thank you.

Yeah, we're actually both on a healing journey mother it's nice so tracy goes to the audition but velma von tussle also the character names in this movie are incredible everything that's michelle pfeiffer aka former miss baltimore. She is. I love when in these movie musicals, when the actor can't really sing and kind of knows that. And so it's just like, I'm just going to perform. And I feel like Michelle Pfeiffer really performs Miss Baltimore Crabs. I wouldn't say she's singing necessarily, but I don't care. Right.

Yes. And Velma does not like the look of Tracy and she does not like that Tracy is pro-integration because as we mentioned Velma is very racist she's also Amber's mom and the tv station manager so she has like a say in who is being cast and which like kind of segments will happen or not on the show. Very evil girl boss. Yes. Yes. So later that day at school, Tracy gets detention because of the height of her hair. And this is where she meets several black students because similar to the American

prison industrial complex where black people are disproportionately incarcerated, black students at this school are disproportionately sent to detention. And there, Tracy meets, befriends, and dances with Seaweed J. St played by elijah kelly i had a crush on every boy in this movie when i was oh same and i'm saying i went through a real like i'm gonna marry all of you yeah exactly it really like some days it's a zach afron day some days it's an elijah kelly day and if i'm feeling mature it's a jamesron day. Some days it's an Elijah Kelly day. And if I'm feeling mature, it's a James Marsden day. Really anything can happen. Now Link, who goes to Tracy's school, sees her dancing in the detention room and is like,

oh, if Corny Collins saw you dancing like that, he would put you on the show. And then Tracy considers this and then does a whole song and dance number about how horny she is for Link. Then she goes back to the set of the show or some event. It's like a dance event sponsored by the Corny Collins show or i don't know something the corny collins people are there and she quote-unquote borrows a dance slash appropriates a dance from her new friend seaweed which never is brought up again she gentrifies she does she does what the tiktok thing that white teenagers do on tiktok there i that yeah i guess it it never like truly truly hit and it's kind of embarrassing it never like truly hit until i was watching to prep for this episode that i was like she steals seaweed stance and never credits it

because she asks but she never ever says and this is by seaweed she's just like yeah which is wild because seaweed is usually right there it's so uh it's so annoying that that was one especially because like that happens in the original as well and it's like you could change that but they don't they do not nope they did not and then Zac Efron sings Lady's Choice which is such a banger like it's still on my Apple Music I'm I he really does I feel like Zac Efron when he was not allowed to sing in High School Musical 1 he took that really personally and dedicated the next half decade of his life to being like oh i can't sing oh i can't sing that's interesting yeah when obviously you can't yeah i've seen it i've heard it um okay so

corny collins sees tracy doing this dance and he loves it and he puts her on the show and she's now a cast member she is continuing to talk about how she is pro-integration. Corny Collins is also pro-integration, which enrages Velma. Also, Corny announces the Miss Teen Hairspray Contest, which is Tracy's dream to participate in. And so Tracy starts regularly dancing on the program. She's becoming more and more popular. Kids at school are starting to pay more attention to her. Mr. Pinky, played by Jerry Stiller, who is in the original movie, who plays her dad. Yeah. He is the owner of a dress store and he wants Tracy to be his spokesgirl. And Tracy is like, oh, mom, you should be my agent and help me negotiate deals like this. But her mom, Edna, is very self-conscious about her weight and she hasn't left the house in years so tracy via song and dance of course

shows her mom that times are changing and that for people who are different our time is coming i love that i mean i love all the songs i i also love welcome to the 60s also did a dance to that in high school incredible it's such a good song so you made the correct choice it's true then seaweed invites tracy link and penny to a party where they meet seaweed sister little linez played by taylor parks and everyone is dancing and having a good time. There's romantic tension between seaweed and Penny. But then Maybell reveals that Velma has canceled Negro Day. And Tracy suggests that they march and protest because, you know, civil rights demonstrations were white people's ideas. And they're like, wow, great idea, Tracy. And Tracy plans to march with her black friends. But Link is a coward. And he's like, I'm not gonna go this would jeopardize my career. Another. I mean, it's so weird okay so this is where obviously the all men are good uh rule that

this movie subscribes to is challenged but it doesn't close in a satisfying way at all at all no they're like are you are you guys good they're like yeah you know no biggie like i feel like yeah we're good we'll just we'll look past that the fact that you don't care enough to stand up for people that are supposed to be my friends and we'll just right be together and then i'm gonna kiss you at the end i feel like when he comes back he's responding to like not the issue of why everyone's mad at him. Where like, he everyone's like, well, fuck you, link, because he refuses to stand up to racism or March and but then he comes back and he's like, Tracy, I love your body. And I was like, that wasn't that wasn't the issue. That wasn't the problem. But she's like, Okay, and then it was like, but that wasn't the issue. I

felt like I was losing my mind. Yeah, well, I was just thinking that wasn't the issue i felt like i was losing my mind yeah well i was just thinking like in within the song without love literally they're talking about like like in this section with cv and penny it's like very clear like we can't be together and then it's like link is over there like tracy without you like i don't know what i'll do and then she's like link i'm about to break out so that i can get my hand on you like they're they're having separate separate conversation entirely about what what's important or what's going on yeah yeah one of his lyrics is something like I will love you no matter what you weigh and it's not that that's coming out of nowhere completely because various characters have commented on her weight prior to this but link never did and that didn't seem to be an issue

for him nor for tracy in fact it was never an issue for tracy right that was an issue for her mom but tracy has never once been like, I don't like my body. I'm uncomfortable with what I weigh. Link won't love me. In fact, she says, and I can hear the bells, Amber thinks that Link won't love a woman like we will wait and see. She knows that she's got what it takes to be loved by somebody regardless of anything. Exactly. That's what I love so much about tracy and that's true in both adaptations

but i feel like it's stated really really clearly um but yeah it's like link is inventing a problem that he doesn't ever talk about with anybody else if it is a problem for him or like an insecurity that he has or a stigma that he's absorbed but yeah he doesn't seem to understand why everyone's mad at him yeah and then strangely enough like he comes back and everybody's just not mad i mean that's how musicals work but it's like everybody forgot about their fundamental differences in terms of even I did because I love this movie but it's like when you think about it critically they would have to have a conversation about it there's just no way but you know in my head can't end together forever it's fine but still they just everybody was like oh okay he's with us now because he's dancing on stage so you can't

stop the beat and then he's like come on inez let's let's you know let's do it and they dance and he gives her her moment and like it's like okay cool he likes black people awesome you know great it's like i guess he learned or whatever he's one of the white people who helps solve racism in this movie yeah they really this movie is wild and we were talking about this yesterday about a very different movie national treasure 2 where it's like it i don't know because this movie's messaging is so like everything is great and three white people from baltimore solved racism forever it's like the fact that the movie is also really fun to watch makes that a more sticky lie to like absorb and the same way that you're like i love watching national treasure too bad that it's jingoistic garbage at its core but yeah see i feel like i feel like the ability for it to be so fun the 2007 version because i like the original but let's be serious

it's not as fun this one's fun i think the way that this is fun sort of makes you forget just how, to me, it makes me forget just how messy the sort of politics and reality of what's happening is. Yeah. Because I spent my time desperate to find Corny Collins and Motormouth Maybel fan fiction. Yes. Did you find it?

When I first watched this, I was like, I want them together bad. in Motormouth Maybel fan fiction. Yes! Did you find it? When I first watched this, I was like, I want them together bad. We need a sequel bad. And I was just like, I remember being like a child searching for their fan fiction because I wanted somebody else to prove to me that I was not wrong about their insane chemistry.

Did you ever find it? No. Well, I guess you have to write it i was like yeah has james morrison bennett anything with queen latifah since because their chemistry is truly off the charts i don't think so but i feel like if i was to ever interview him like i wouldn't ask that would be my first question i'd be like listen can we talk about the chemistry that you two had or you know do you have time for that they'd be like kia that's not the aim of this article that came out years ago it doesn't matter it doesn't matter okay so back to the movie that is about the that was all on topic sorry back to the recap back to the recap um link has just said i'm not gonna march with you

i can't jeopardize my career which upsets tracy greatly meanwhile velma goes to tracy's dad's joke shop she's trying to seduce him in order to destroy their family and try to get Tracy kicked off the show. And it almost works because Edna walks in the shop when Velma has herself wrapped around Wilbur and she gets very upset. But Edna eventually forgives Wilbur, realizing that it was like a setup and the two of them Edna and Wilbur sing a song about how they are timeless to each other they're kind of beautiful yeah and neither of them can sing no but that's okay right it works it was beautiful it was beautiful though like wow what a moment I know mom and dad are working it out uh then it's the day of the march and tracy shows up and maybel is like well if you march with us you will never be allowed to dance on

the show again and tracy says i don't care this is more important so they march maybel sings a song and the cops and press show up and Tracy hits a cop with her sign. And he's like, you just assaulted me. So she runs away. And now there's this huge manhunt with the cops looking for Tracy. Penny tries to help her. But Penny's mom, Allison Janney, who is also very racist and very awful and also super religious right yeah yes she punishes penny and like locks her in her room but then seaweed comes to rescue penny uh while that's happening link realizes he's in love with tracy and they all are singing a song about these kind

of like forbidden loves kind of thing yeah i just wanted to make a quick note that in the i think the original movie if i'm remembering correctly and definitely in the original stage musical uh tracy goes to jail with other protesters that does not happen in the movie so they cut a song that i've never heard oh but it's called the big dollhouse question mark don't know okay sure also can i make one small note please when uh one of the funniest lines to me in the movie is when uh goes to get Kenny out and she's like sorry about the knots and he was like it's fine but was your mom in the navy by the way how like intricate the knots are it's like one of the funniest lines to me in the movie

because he's just like what is going on how am I gonna get you out of here right yeah because she says something like I was so worried that the color of our skin would keep us apart. And he's like, no, but these knots might. Yeah. And we're like, uh-huh. Okay. So then Tracy, Penny, Seaweed, Mabel, Edna, and a bunch of other people sneak into the

TV station on the day of the Miss Hairspray pageant. And right when it seems like Amber is about to be announced as the winner, Tracy crashes the pageant. She dances with Link a little bit. And then Link, as we alluded to, invites Seaweed's little sister Inez onto the stage to dance, which is the first time this program has integrated dancing, which of course Velma has a conniption about. Penny's mom is also seeing this on TV. She's freaking out because then like Seaweed comes on stage and dances with Penny. um meanwhile a bunch of people are calling into the station to place their votes for the pageant and inez is named

miss teen hairspray and then corny collins declares that his show is now officially integrated, and everyone's dancing and having a great time. Velma is fired, and then Tracy and Link kiss. The end. I just can't think of water. What a movie. Truly. What a movie. The end, they're like, racism cured. We fixed it.

1962. Only took a couple weeks. You're like, wow. So let's take another quick break and we will come back to discuss. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know, we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Catherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself.

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Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. And on camera, yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I gotta hawk this slalom, Luigy. Not hawk this

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Where shall we start? Can I share the historical context to begin? Please. Yeah. So, yeah, I didn't know any of this before prepping for this episode, but John Waters wrote and directed the original and was very much pulling from his memories of Baltimore growing up when writing this. And so the Corny Collins show is directly based on a teen dance show called the Buddy Dean show that also had a big integration scandal.

However, it ends very differently. So I'm going to be reading from an Atlantic article that came out in 2016, where there was a lot of writing about Hairspray because they did one of those like TV broadcasts of the stage musical. So there's a lot of 2016 discourse around Hairspray, which sounds confusing, but isn't. Anyways, the piece is by Matthew Delmont. And here it is. Quote, in December 1963, producers at Baltimore's WJZ-TV canceled the Buddy Dean show rather than integrate the popular teen dance program. This move would have been a footnote in the annals of television, if not for director John Waters, whose 1988 film Hairspray offered up an alternate history with its fictional Corny Collins show and rose-tinted Let's All Dance Together ending. From 1957 to 1963, only white teens were allowed to attend the weekday broadcasts of the Buddy Dean show, with the exception of one Monday each month when black teenagers filled the studio, the so-called Black Monday. In 1963, the Civic Interest Group, a student integrationist

group founded at Morgan State University, challenged this policy by obtaining tickets for black and white teens to attend the show on a day reserved for black teenagers. After a surprise interracial broadcast, WJZ-TV received bomb and arson threats, hate mail, and complaints from white parents. Facing controversy over the possibility of more integrated broadcasts, the station canceled the program. So that is something that John Waters remembered from when he was a kid. And that was kind of part of his, I guess, mission when writing 1988 was imagining that ending differently. So I just wanted to open with that thing I learned. Yes, that is helpful context.

And he was, I think, one of the few white filmmakers in that era who was addressing and examining racial inequality of that time. And then he wrote this kind of like fairy tale ending almost to this narrative. So you kind of have to look at the movie through that lens of like, yeah, everything was great and and racism solved um but yeah his approach to that is extremely a like white perspective and this adaptation that we're talking about we're focusing on the 2007 one carries a lot of that like kind of fumbling of how that subject matter is handled because like this is a white savior narrative the movie has very few black characters despite it being a movie that involves advocating for racial integration like we mentioned, there are moments of like characters appropriating culture and dance from Black characters, and the movie presenting that is like a positive thing.

There's this example of like police aggression directed toward a civil rights protester, but it being directed at a white person when we know that police aggression and brutality is disproportionately targeted at black and brown people so there's just all these things they're like yeah white people it was their idea to solve racism and then they did it i think the thing though and i kind of give them credit for this is is that, like, as a Black person, I enjoy the movie more knowing that it ends in this weird happily ever after. Like, I don't want to watch a movie

where I'm just reminded of the trauma of, you know, that time frame and the civil rights in general. It's like, I enjoyed this version of the movie corny collins show didn't get canceled or that you know um racism is seemingly solved because i don't want to watch another movie or another musical where i'm reminded of my own otherness because i see it all the time and i think the thing that for me about hairspray is that I can forgive the rest of it because I don't need it to be a documentary style thing. I would prefer to escape for a little

and pretend like, you know, Corny Collins is a person that exists and he's like nice to black people and secretly with Mortimer female. But they're secretly together and they're very happy and it's fine uh but i would also like i just i think for me it's easier to dismiss or ignore those things because it makes me feel better knowing that they don't exist in that world if that makes sense that That is totally fair. Yeah, that's something that I

saw when I was going through the sort of like 2016 round of discourse, a great time for internet discourse 2016. Really nothing, nothing like it. Only only better. Discourse was 2020. Great year for having opinions. Yeah. and i think that that the discussion that you two are both having was very present in that round of discourse because i think in that same piece in the atlantic matthew delmont is arguing that you know 2016 is not the time to be presenting alternative history on the history of racism in America, which I think is a fair point. And also, I don't, I don't know, I think it like really depends on who is watching Hairspray and what they're watching it for. It really, it feels like it's

the eye of the beholder is really relevant in that discussion. Because Kia, like what you, what you just said, like makes total sense why would you want to see trauma played out in this big splashy musical and then also it's like i i don't know i guess it it's like i don't i guess i wonder is there a member of the audience in hairspray that watches it and is like yep this was historical document yeah like the thing is like, yep, this was historical document. Yeah, that's the thing. Why are you watching this for a history lesson? I think it's the same thing with The Little Mermaid, the new reboot. White people were upset. Let me be clear. It was white people who were upset because they didn't talk about

slavery. Because when they adjusted where everything was, they were upset that they didn't talk about slavery. And it like sorry i don't want to go see ariel eric and the slave trade i don't want to right right i don't want to go see that like i think i think if you're looking at a movie musical from 2007 and saying to yourself damn it why is that not accurate to what actually happened is this my history then you have bigger fish to fry like it's not you have bigger concerns i guess i guess my thing is that had this been in the hands of black filmmakers they would have because like i also appreciate that there's like escapist media that does touch on racism and segregation that doesn't have this like traumatic violent ending but i think that

there are certain elements within the story that could have been handled a little bit differently had they been had it been like written and directed by black filmmakers where there wouldn't be those like moments where like yeah oh it's totally fine when this white person appropriates this dance from this black dancer yeah it's the white girl's idea for the black people to hold a protest like it would have been met with more nuance i see what you're saying right right right right yeah i think my main issue yeah because it's it's i guess the frustrating thing is like those would not have been difficult changes to make and it wouldn't have really changed what happens in the story much at all i think in many ways it is a reflection of what happens you know but who will say something and

then a white person will get the credit for it or whatever sure but i do think i see what you're saying caitlin about the fact that like if it was directed by black people there would be more nuance to it it would it would have brought about i think a more nuanced conversation for sure but i do absolutely see what you're saying i just think it's like in that aspect, unfortunately, in many ways, it's true. You, you sort of have to use non black people to get the point across about black things,

even though it didn't really work because she didn't give him credit. Right. Yeah. It's frustrating because it's like what, it doesn't really change anything about the movie if she gives him credit for that. Right. And it doesn't change anything about the movie if it is like what it doesn't really change anything about the movie if she gives him credit for that right and it doesn't change anything about the movie if it is like motormouth maybel's idea to march and not tracy's so i and i also was interested in uh in this same atlantic piece it gives the context of when the music when the broadway musical came. It came out really shortly after 9-11. I know. Shrek 9-11,

Hairspray the Musical was the sequence of events. And that, I guess, wasn't surprising to me because I feel like there's so much post 9-11 media that was very escapist and in some ways, and I guess I don't mean this as good or bad, but like revisionist and like, we need to all come together. And yeah, I feel like Hairspray is like very squarely, the musical at least is very squarely in there. the black characters in the story and that they were actually written because it's like we certainly have the space for it especially because you have you have queen latifah why would you not give her character a backstory seriously outside of like a couple of lines i mean same with seaweed where seaweed is on screen pretty frequently but uh we don't really know much about him outside of that he loves being on the show and that he's falling in love with penny we don't get much i mean i don't know yeah i feel like there was definitely space and i wonder if it exists in the musical and was cut

for the movie i don't know i haven't seen the musical i would like to but i wonder if there are scenes where you see like inez and Maybelle and Seaweed at home the way that you see all the white characters at home including Penny I was gonna say we learned so much about Amber yeah we learn about Amber we learn about Penny there's a whole song about Velma's teenage years as Miss Baltimore Crabs and like yeah why do we have that but not get any scenes where we see this family at home also think about how much more cathartic it would be when inez wins miss teen hairspray if we knew anything about her yeah right because even when even when we see her in that little bit where c lead is singing one tell that all he says is

like you know you're up next like you your your time is coming but we don't really know what she's after at any point after that like you know like she wins which is great but it's like who who are they outside of their connection to tracy i would love, I agree, I would love to know. Although they did use Queen Latifah correctly by finally giving her a song. That would have been a crime had she done the whole movie with no singing. I would have been like, absolutely not. But, you know, aside from her secret Tori love affair with Courtney Collins, you know, I wanted more, I wanted to know more about her

and sort of how she's raising these two kids in this time frame of Baltimore yeah and I found that to be true in the original movie as well where like you were saying earlier Kiat

or Caitlin did you say I don't remember my My brain no longer works. That like John Waters was a director who wanted to center issues like racism and like homophobia in his work at a time where not a lot of directors were wanting to do that. And certainly not wanting to do that in a way that had any like nuance or like it wasn't really steeped in in trauma um and that's like part of what's amazing about him but it's like but if that is something you're committed to doing you have to like write the characters right or it's gonna ring a little bit hollow for sure also having seen cry baby which is one of the wildest movies I've ever seen. I barely remember it.

I think it's like, in some ways, his hairspray makes sense after you watch Crybaby. Because it's like, it's sort of dry and weird and it doesn't exactly make sense in a way. So maybe that's his vibe. I think with this one, with the 2007 one, they had ample opportunity to make these things make sense. Right. And some of them they did, but most of them it was just sort of like,

no, it's good. We don't got to really focus on that. What do you mean they have thoughts and ideas outside of like tracy helping them no no this movie wouldn't happen uh yeah i don't know yeah i i think it's so funny because this movie like obviously it's based on john water's work but it is so sincere that it's sometimes you're like oh yeah this was at one point a john waters movie because it just feels like antithetical to how like his vibe where it's funny but it doesn't have the same sense of humor you would never guess that like pink flamingos and the 2007 hairspray came from the mind of the same person yeah well because also he he i don't think wrote the book of the musical no no

no so yeah it was so he wrote and directed the original film from 88 the broadway musical adaptation book written by mark o'donnell and thomas mehan mehan um song lyrics by mark shaman and scott whitman if you are wondering if those are all white men yes they sure are and then Meehan song lyrics by Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman. If you're wondering if those are all white men, yes, they sure are. And then the 2007 screenplay was written by Leslie Dixon, a white woman and directed by Adam Shankman,

a white man. So also directed a walk to remember he sure did, which is my favorite movie in the whole entire world sorry I just had that it was great oh my gosh wow it really is a singing episode yeah I like Adam Shankman

you know misses the mark on a lot of the like themes in this movie but boy can that guy direct a movie that I will watch the fuck out of. Yeah. Because he even did some of the step-up movies too. He directed The Wedding Planner,

I Want to Remember, Bringing Down the House, so he's Queen Latifah Cannon. The Pacifier, that is Dwayne The Rock Johnson's babysitter movie. Uh-huh. Cheaper by the Dozen 2.

Ooh. Hairspray. Oh, and he did direct What Men Want. All right. All right. Oops. All right. And then he directed the Enchanted sequel I didn't watch.

I like him. I did. I mean, listen, he's got some hits on his belt some banger it's true also fun fact about adam shankman i mean he's he's i think we talked about this probably on the walk to remember episode but he's or maybe the wedding planner episode he's a queer director he's been out for a long time but that's not the fun fact i wanted to share the fun fact i wanted to share is that he officiated the wedding of Freddie Prinze Jr. and Sarah Michelle Gellar

why? I don't know well wait I think didn't they do does he have anything to do with She's All That or let me see I think maybe he directed Buffy episodes

no he didn't. There's something there. I don't know if it's with Freddy or Sarah, but I remember there being some sort of something. Oh, he was... Okay, keeping with the... They are all... Wait, is Rob Marshall... Because he directed Chicago and he just directed the new little mermaid movie anyways uh they are all uh white guys but they're three queer directors who started as choreographers and then became directors of

movie musicals adam shankman kenny ortega and rob marshall what a pipeline shout out to kenny ortega i'm sorry but he also has hits. He does. Oh, my God. He really, like, doesn't have misses that I know of. No. Right. Ugh. Shout out to Julie and the Phantoms that got canceled too early on Netflix. So good. So good.

Gone too soon. We're going to be talking about that on the Newsies episode because that was the first movie he ever directed. Uh-huh. But, yeah, it is shocking to me how kenny ortega like his movies are very rarely received well in their time but they age like a fine wine they're all perfect people who know and people who have taste are fans of kenny ortega you know you know anyways that's i guess now we've talked about Adam Shankman. But to go back to the whiteness of this movie, it's just like it doesn't seem like there was anyone in the room who wasn't white to draw like how society and beauty standards perceive fatness and like the movie's handling of fatness,

aside from Tracy and Motivell, Maybel, and how they feel about themselves, is like fatness is equitable in this movie to the most disgusting possible thing you could ever be. And I find that to be really annoying, but also it's interesting because it's like we don't see a lot of fat people in this movie right it's just Tracy and Motivation Bell and uh John Travolta as the mom but it's like everybody everybody around them is either average size or skinny but yet fatness is still seeing like this like epidemic that we

can't possibly allow to what is the word that people use all the time now when they're like glorify yeah and i find that to be really intriguing considering the majority of the cast and the characters in this movie are nowhere near fat. Right. It's just the three of them. And it's still just like, oh, fatness is running rampant. Yeah. Like you said, it kind of conflates people being prejudiced against fat people with racism. Yeah. Yeah.

Which that was a big element of the 2016 discourse as well of just like, these are not the same struggle. They're both struggles, but putting them on the same level makes no sense. Like the manhunt for Tracy. The manhunt for Tracy. Sorry. I just make you laugh.

The manhunt for Tracy for the sign thing is so coded in her being fat. By the time that the police are out searching for her and they carry her inside in the spray can or the hairspray can, it's sort of like, oh, no. Then we have the police inside and they want to go stop the black people from being on the stage. And Velma's like, wait till commercial. And it's like, why is there a connection there so that it's so wild to me it's like oh no we've got to wait till commercial for the black people to get off the stage and oh we have to stop tracy because she's changing the minds of both of us and they're they're somehow connected because she suffers too and it's like it's not right no it's

just like so it's i don't know like it's almost funny because it's so i think it's not. Right. No. It's just like so it's I don't know, like it's almost funny because it's so I think it's so sincerely felt that you're just like, yeah, what do you think you're saying here? It's so confusing. but is made by a whole pile of white guys and is not really like saying what it thinks it is kind of stuff where it's it's just like flattening the concept of struggling in america and there is like a prescriptive solution and that is being allowed to be on the corny colin show like it's just like no it's very we all bleed red yes yes. Yes. Yes. Very much like, oh, guys, I don't care if you're red, green, blue, whatever. You know, we all struggle. Yeah. Like Clinton era, like colorblind.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. The thing that I was most frustrated with, with this movie specifically specifically is that John Travolta is in a fat suit that yes I feel like that just like undercuts so much definitely yeah like it it just undercuts a lot because in the original Divine plays Edna and plays like a it's I think it is interesting that the character of Edna is adjusted between the original movie and also I guess from the musical to be more introverted and be more shy I don't hate that decision but that was a choice that was made but in the original Divine is fat and not like wearing

these really distracting prosthetics that I've seen people in recent years, you know, reclaim John Travolta's performance and like, you know, whatever. If you love it, you love it. But yeah, I think especially because fat suits on big time celebrities, that was literally a huge topic of discussion less than six months ago, when Brendan Fraser won the Oscar for The Whale and like so I feel like that undercut any like like the attempts and I think some of the like attempts to talk about fatness in this movie are successful but like the John Travolta fat suit I'm just like what are we doing here yeah like you said it undercuts a lot because it is rare for a movie to have a fat character at all, let alone a fat protagonist. It's even rarer for a story with a fat protagonist to be about something besides the character's

size. And in this movie, like her size plays a part in the narrative, but it's not what the story is about it's you know her goal is to be a dancer it's not to lose weight or to find the confidence to be a dancer despite her size anything like that because another rare thing is for a movie to portray a fat character who is confident in herself it's also a rare example of a movie showing a fat character doing something physical like dancing a lot of movies with fat characters rely on stereotypes of like oh the only thing the fat character does is sit down and eat food stuff like that and she's always alone like if it like whoever it is, they never end up with a romantic partner either. Exactly. Like it's rare to see a fat character be romantically

desired by another character period, especially one who is thin and who is like very traditionally attractive, such as someone played by Zac Efron. So you have these things that most movies refuse to do, but then it also turns around and again, puts John Travolta in a fat suit. It has that character. Edna eats when she's upset. People use food to convince her to stay at a party. So it's still relying on stereotypes for that character. But I guess I'm just saying, like, it's not all bad, at least with Tracy, but it fumbles a lot of other things. Yeah, because you don't really see her come out of her shell

or, like, anything remotely until the very last scene when she, like, goes on stage to sing um i do think it's really interesting though because maybe i'm wrong because i've never seen the musical but like motorboat maybelle was not she was not in the movie was she in the 1988 she was but it's like she's a much smaller character yeah okay so So I think the addition of making her a slightly bigger character made sense because then it's like you get to see she doesn't have the same, even though her and Edna are supposed to be close in age, I assume,

she doesn't have the same hang-ups about her body and what it means and why that matters as Ed edna does and so that's what i really appreciated i'm sorry you mentioned caitlin about how she like uses food to make edna stay she's like we got a whole feast like i'm gonna eat yeah so like if you're like if you want to stay and you want to eat that's great um but i think i think honestly though they had to because it's queen batista like you can't just like she's not like, you know, a small role in general. For sure. She's in Chicago.

Right. That's one of the things that I deeply enjoyed about the movie as well. Even though we did not get what I think is great characterization of the Black characters in the movie, the addition of her that made her a bigger character in this was for the better for sure i did like that edna i guess like because yeah i think all the tropes that we've we've already talked about are very present but i i did like and feel like there was some value in like edna seeing other women in her life including her own daughter like loving themselves and being happy and taking I feel like it was like realistic that it like

took her a while to internalize that and I love that like it's it's part of the like very happy wonderful ending of this movie uh that she accepts herself and it's um i don't know i think that there's a lot of ways to to get there but i think realizing that like she is loved and accepted by her own daughter there is i guess in in this baltimore um there are more options for her to like wear clothes that she's comfortable in that she doesn't know exists. There's like ways for her to ease into like a better relationship with her own body. And I like that that's it's like a really fun, I think, fantasy thing to like see that she like her her daughter helps her realize that and also i it felt pretty authentic that like edna is judging her own daughter's body towards the beginning of the movie and saying like well you shouldn't you know you

shouldn't audition for corny collins because they're going to laugh at your body in like a way that it's like she's trying to protect her from what she's afraid of happening to her right it's for a movie that like doesn't do complex like super well I felt like this that relationship really I mean it like definitely hit for me where I feel like there's a lot of parents but I mean I think very often mothers who project the body issues that they have with themselves onto their kids in in presenting it like i'm just trying to help you and i like that tracy rejects that and instead of i mean there is definitely a version of this story that isn't as fun where she's like no fuck you mom like but because tracy is tracy she's like no i feel like like I'm good with myself and like I want that

for you too and let's sing a song about it you know what else I appreciate which I don't know if one of you touched on earlier like Wilbur loved her the entire time Edna the entire time but like even that wasn't enough it's like she had to go and figure out for herself how to love herself she didn't put her hopes and dreams and whatever on like I got your dad to love me so it's lit she was just like yeah you love me whatever but like I'm I'm not comfortable with me until she was yeah which I appreciate because oftentimes it's like especially with marginalized people in general it's like oh if you can get one person to you, hold on to that person and never let them go because that's the only option you got. Whereas they've been happily married, but she was still unhappy.

And so it showcased that like, oh, no, I need to find it within myself and not place it in another person. Which is also a fantastic message for Tracy, because even though she was like i'm trying to get in lane's pants okay she still didn't she was like i'm trying to get that she is not shy about saying it too her song is so horny about him it's so horny especially when she says like she won't go all the way but but she'll go pretty far. Oh, I love it. Bye. So, like, I think it's even though she's very horny for length, it's like she did not base her happiness on whether or not they got together. She based her happiness on being able to achieve her dream of being a dancer.

Yes. Yeah. And the same kind of goes for, I don't know, like where there's a lot of like women perceiving other women's bodies in this movie, which I always think is interesting. It's really easy to fuck up. But I just always think it's interesting. the um Wilbur and Edna story Miss Baltimore Crabs making the assumption that Wilbur is not attracted to his own to his wife his wife his wife uh and and being wrong about that and being like made a fool of um for for making that assumption yeah she goes in and is like i'm michelle pfeiffer christopher walken's gonna want to smooch on me and you're like well she does have a point she is michelle pfeiffer she is but he's like no i would rather just sell you awesome like whoopie exactly such a doofus buy my rubber chicken etc i love christopher walken um joke shop owner yeah now should he let us know what happened on that boat with natalie wood yes he should and i have to bring it up every time we cover a christopher walken movie i would like to also know

also one of the funniest lines in the movie is when britney snownell calls Edna and she's like, who is this? And she's like, Mike. He's like, Mike who? I don't know, Mike. And then she's like, where is Tracy? And she goes, I don't know. I don't know who she was asking for. Maybe it was her mom. She was like, I don't know. He's with that great white whale and those Negroes. It is like the way that I say that in my daily life, at least once every two weeks, just randomly, I'll be like those he's with that great white wheels those new girls but to myself out loud i don't know it's stuck i mean it's so funny snow plays a good village she does she does where is she where is she at now what's she what is she doing i think she just finished an indie movie or tv show or something something She's also in The Pacifier

Adam Shankman loves her Who knew The Pacifier is an American classic Shout out to Vin Diesel It's true Oh yeah it's the Vin Diesel babysitter movie Not the Rock babysitter movie That's the Tooth Fairy

And then isn't there a John Cena Babysitter movie also Or like he's a fireman And then isn't there a John Cena babysitter movie also? Or like he's a fireman and then some kids show up at the firehouse. People love when a beefcake babysits in a movie. Yeah, I mean, he technically babysits Vin Diesel's kid in the new Fast and the Furious movie. You're not wrong. An American classic. Perfect film, no notes um yeah speaking of actors nikki blonsky as we've said does an incredible job in this movie but despite that she never became

a big star which is just indicative of the way holly Hollywood tends to treat fat actors because it just refuses to cast fat actors in most roles. And I was looking at her IMDB. And one of the things that she's known for aside from this movie is she is a lead or one of the leads in a show called Huge. So I wanted to Yeah, I wanted to bring that up because it because I was on the Nikki Blonsky a lead or one of the leads in a show called huge. I love it. So I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to bring that up because it, cause I was on the Nikki Blonsky train.

Kia, it sounds like you were as well. Yeah. And I remember most of her roles after hairspray, a movie that she plays Tracy Turnblad, a like woman who is comfortable in her own skin. And then her, She plays Tracy Turnblad, a woman who is comfortable in her own skin. And then her roles after that for the next couple of years were mostly defined by what she looked like and also around shame. Because I remember Huge.

I also remember, if I'm remembering correctly, Queen-Sized, which was a lifetime movie about a fat prom queen. And so there was definitely like, it seemed like very, and I honestly didn't. Did you ever watch Huge? I never watched it. I did. Yeah. What did you think? I sat through it. It was basically like a TV show about a fat camp. And her character struggled so much with like feeling worth worthy

and she was like, desperate to lose weight. And there's this really melodramatic storyline about how some of the campers had the eating disorders and they were desperate to lose weight. And I just remember being like, this is such a far cry from Hairspray. And that happens, but I truly believe that all of her missteps as an adult human being aside, Nikki Blonsky really is a casualty of the time. Because that movie should have catapulted her. It really should have shot her to an actual trajectory and now people make fun of her because she had that racist incident i think it was like at an airport

yes so that was the other thing i remembered that i was like okay i yeah i i totally agreed kia that that she was absolutely a casualty of attitudes towards fat women when like because we just like grew up at such a horrible time but there was also because i when i was prepping for this i was like oh i remember that it was like she and her family got into like a racist fight at the airport in like turks and cacos it was like it was deeply racist tirade. Her and her mom went on to these other black people and everybody was just like, wait,

what? Hairspray, Mickey. What's happening? The girl who starred in the movie about curing racism. Like it just, cause, and it was also the,

the woman or it was like two families, but like it was America's Next Top Model contestant that they got into a fight with um it it really sent me back to and and of course like I was going back through the like tabloid coverage of this from 2008 and it is pretty pro-blonsky in terms of like well this was just being blown out of proportion. A lot of the context of what prompted the fight is not included. And so it is like, I mean, there's certainly like more shades of gray here. But yeah, as far as her career went, it was mostly roles that were defined by her body and then not as much yeah i was kind of interested

because she she didn't do interviews for a long time and i have a guess as to why um but when she did start doing interviews again it was in 2020 because she came out but but never really spoke to the kinds of roles she was offered so i don't have her opinion of that but yeah yeah she she has a cameo too i i booked a cameo for my friend because she likes this baseball player guy and i saw her on the little thing she has like and she wishes people like happy graduations from Nikki Blonsky of Hairspray. Like, she's, you know, that's her vibe, which is great. Oh, my God, I realized it's Pride Month, and I'm out here talking about a straight couple,

Corny Collins and Mormon. How dare you? I was like, oh, my God, guys, I am a disgrace to bisexuals everywhere. But in my defense, I was was like you know what they would have a third occasionally they would have a third yeah Courtney Collins is polyamorous and in addition to having a secret

romance with Maybel he also kisses who's another adult man in the movie besides maybe he kisses Christopher Walken I don't know well i feel like christopher walken like wilbur's vibe is like open to a third for sure yeah yeah wilbur's vibe is very like down the clown you know i mean it's literally his damn job

yeah he's like yeah let's have a third and let's all fuck in the joke shop. Let's get weird. I've got the whoopee t-shirt, let's go. Kinky. Can we talk about John Travolta again, but in a different context? I guess so. So a man playing a female character. So obviously John Travolta plays Tracy's mom, Edna. The precedent had been set for a man or mask presenting person to play this character in the 88 John Waters

version, because as we said, Divine plays that character. Divine was a drag queen and a queer person. And not that you have to be those things to play a gender bending role like this. But it kind of makes more sense that, you know, Divine was cast in that role. And it kind of begs the the question why would they have not cast another you know iconic drag performer to play Edna in this movie because to my knowledge John Travolta is not a drag performer unless I'm missing something I don't know who like originated the role in the Broadway musical I was just trying to find out in In any case, I guess I have complicated feelings on like, I don't mind gender bending roles like this. I don't mind when like a mask person plays a femme or vice versa, or you know, someone elsewhere on the gender spectrum plays any kind of role,

I think, honestly, it would be cool if there was more gender-bending casting in media. But there's very little parody because I can think of several examples of men playing characters who are women. You've got your, like, Louis Anderson in baskets. You've got Tyler like louis anderson in baskets you've got tyler perry as medea you've got martin lawrence as big mama's house you've got eddie murphy and several of his like whatever

clunk clump what are they what the clumps yeah and and i think other of his movies as well. And Norbit. Norbit, yes. Yes. And a lot of those actors are also in fat suits, which, again, we discussed is a big issue. Harvey Fierstein played Edna on Broadway in the original cast. And one of Tony, maybe. Interesting. Yeah. I have also complicated feelings towards that. But I feel like like i don't know i think i sort of uh landed on like i don't know i don't know like it i i feel like the part

is so it's such a divine part that whatever not gonna argue the thing divine did in her in in her entire life great and i'm not opposed to actors in drag at all. I mean, I think it just has to do with how well written is the character. Is the character written as a punchline? Or I think it reminds me of this was in the last 10 years, Kenan Thompson said that he was no longer going to play drag roles on SNL because he felt that it was just because they hadn't cast a black woman on the show and that they were you know using him in drag as an excuse like not to cast a black woman which is a great reason not to do drag for sure but I think I don't know I sort of landed on like I'm more upset about the fat suit I think the fat

suit fucking sucks yeah and also i i i guess i just worry about like the slippery kind of slope that is presented there because you know john travolta's sexuality has been speculated about for decades and it's none of our business um like how he identifies and you know it is our business that he's so high up in Scientology uh but as as far as uh how he identifies who gives a shit um I don't know I mean I guess my answer is I don't know I it doesn't bother me that Edna is a historically a drag role because there are a ton of non-drag roles in this movie it's not like the keenan thompson issue where it was like well we're gonna put a man in drag specifically because we don't want women

around like it uh right but a lot of movies would rather have a cis man in a fat suit play a fat woman than actually cast a fat woman absolutely absolutely i think i think for me i'm sort of in the same uh boat as jamie where it's like i feel like and again not give a man too much but i feel like john travolta played edna with a sense of like sincerity and it wasn't like she was the butt of a joke or that he didn't take it seriously and I think that's what makes it better because I've always felt like even in interviews that I watched and I remember watching them on Oprah specifically about how he was like I didn't I was never going to play this like a joke because it's not a joke to me Edna is a real person to me and I'm going to treat her with the respect she deserves or something like that.

I'm paraphrasing. But I think because I knew going into the movie that he seemed to take it seriously and didn't feel like he was just, you know, pretending to be a woman putting on a show i felt like i was like oh okay i'm okay with him being edna because at least he's not making her the butt of any jokes whereas like a lot of times and again i respect them as well but like eddie murphy and martin lawrence and you know all these other people it's like the joke is that they're a man in a fat suit. Exactly. I mean, pretending to be a woman. And like Mrs. Doubtfire.

Yeah, Mrs. Doubtfire. It's like, that's the joke. That's the bit. Whereas like in this movie, it's not inherently a bit. It's just, this is the thing we understand and know, but it's not like, oh guys, ha ha ha, laugh at me. Because I'm John Travolta playing a woman because it's funny when a man presents as feminine like he's kind of being emasculated because he's wearing

a dress and isn't that hilarious right I think yeah Kia you're like spot on that it like has everything to do with the actor's intent. Because you can feel, you know, in a lot of the roles we just discussed that like fat women and women are the butt of the joke. Very, very, very much so. I think, I mean, I think that the fat suit, the use of the fat suit, like really complicates stuff. And I would say it's dated, except it still happens.

But as far as, as far as like John Travolta's intent, that's really great to know. And I feel like that does come through in the performance. fat character I think who who is being uh written to fall prey to the tropes of like emotional eating and like always hungry and that's how you keep her in a room I don't think that the other fat women in the in the movie are really treated that way so I feel like there's notes of that but it's definitely not I, the worst incarnation of it. And I do, I mean, it is, it does make me feel a lot better that like in the press junket that like John Travolta was like, no, I'm not trying to make fun of anybody. And I do feel like that comes through in the performance.

And yeah, I don't know. Also worth mentioning that every time a man is cast to play a woman it takes a role and a paycheck away from a woman but um but if there was more parody and you got to see like femmes playing mask characters more often because that rarely happens in movies again like the lack of parody is kind of noticeable but I don't know just I thought worth mentioning yeah I don't know I think ultimately it doesn't bother me that Edna is historically a drag role no yeah I think and honestly in my notes I was like I I got stuck in my head about it and then I I was just like, it's a John Waters story. Of course, there's going to be people in drag.

It's John Waters. That just makes sense. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about? I was just glad that I just learned Harvey Fierstein played Edna on Broadway. I was like, I want to listen to the Fierstein cut. And also,

he's really famous. Why didn't he get to be? I mean, I know that John Travolta, I remember the marketing for this movie, and that was the headline. Yeah, he was the draw. Yeah, and a movie full of famous people. But I was like, I would love to see Harvey Fierstein play Edna in this version. Yeah, and a movie full of famous people. But I was like, I would love to see

Harvey Fierstein play Edna in this version. Yeah, I remember the press junket. They did a lot of like, come see this movie because John Travolta's in it and also Queen Latifah. And they paired them together, you know, in the little press junket. It was always those two.

And then randomly, Zach got found by himself a couple times then him with nick like mickey bronsky i feel like only really did interviews with but i think it's because they were like introducing her like this was our first right big thing but but it was very much like guys come see this movie john travolta's in it and so is queen latifah if you don't come we hate you this is this is the draw this is the thing but yeah i think i don't know i guess if there's one other thing that i would say it's that james marston should be cast in rom comes where he gets the girl yes there should also be a fan fiction i'm never gonna let it go there should also be fan fiction. I'm never going to let it go.

There should also be fan fiction of Courtney Collins and Monomouth Maybel. If you don't write it, you're racist. Also, it's just like this is a lesson in what it takes to have chemistry with the people that you cast. We don't focus on chemistry enough anymore.

Please bring back chemistry reads that's what it is yeah bring it back we need it desperately there has just been just because they're hot doesn't mean that they should actually work together exactly yes see matthew mcconaughey in every rom-com he's ever been cast okay see watch your mouth sorry that's adam shankman adam shankman decided he and j-lo had chemistry and i trust him and i think they did and i think they did too i think i think he had more chemistry with her than he did with jennifer garner in that one movie about the ex-girlfriend's past. Oh, yeah. He doesn't have chemistry with any women.

Caitlin is a McConaughey detractor. Oh, and how to lose a guy in 10 days. They had chemistry. You don't think they had chemistry? I think. Kate Hudson can have chemistry with a wall. You know who he didn't have chemistry with? Failure to launch. Oh, Sarah Jessica Parker.

Sarah Jessica Parker. They did not have chemistry. Yeah chemistry yeah that didn't work i didn't buy it especially when you grow up watching sarah jessica parker have chemistry with so many different people you're like literally so many different people yeah okay i'm only hearing examples of people who matthew mcconaughey doesn't have chemistry with i my point has been proven as far as i'm concerned anyway that's all i think that that's that's all i have to say yes but does this movie pass the bechdel test it does a lot yes uh tracy and penny talk about dancing tracy and edna talk about how it's the 60s and times are changing. Tracy and Velma talk about how Velma is racist. Velma and Amber talk. Lots of different combinations.

It's true. And I like, oh, last thing I'll shout out is there is like what would typically be coded as a makeover scene in this movie. But it's just Edna getting clothes that she likes more oh yeah it didn't even register for me honestly oh my god yeah no and I like it there was nothing that was like oh let me make her thinner exactly she's like oh there is like a store for me and now I can have a matching sequin outfit with my daughter which is very sweet incredible i also really like uh big blonde and beautiful yes i think that's a really good song that has nothing to do with a man and just being like yeah i like to eat don't be stingy i'm a growing girl like i'm gonna eat

this food on this table and you know i like that because i'm always hungry and now it's time for our nipple scale our perfect metric in which we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens um i would say i'll start by saying that i completely hear your point kia about wanting to see something that you can escape into a story that deals with racism and has this happy kind of fairy tale escapist ending that doesn't remind you of, you know, the horrors and trauma of real life racism. I guess I would just like to see more versions of that, as told through a Black perspective that doesn't do the various fumbles that this movie does and that actually characterizes the black characters and gives them interior lives yeah and i think that there's ways for media to be escapist and inclusive like yeah for sure and it's yeah and it's all behind the scenes

stuff definitely and then between that and the the movie's perspective on fatness which in some ways is rather progressive in terms of it showcasing a fat character who is confident and who loves herself and her body which is something that's so rare to see in popular media. But then it turns around and puts John Travolta in a fat suit and relies on reductive stereotypes for the Edna character. So I don't know. Oh, how many nipples? Is it like two? Is it three?

I think it's three. Bruce Valanche also played Edna. Oh, that's great. Sorry. Still on this article. Okay, nipples. I'm going to give it, it feels like cheating to give it two and a half, but I think that's where I'm going to land because it's heart is in the right place. It's trying to do something and say something.

It's not doing it perfectly, but the attempt is clear. So I'll give it two and a half nipples. I'll give one to Taylor Parks, who plays Inez. I'll give one to Queen Latifah. And I'll give my half nipple to Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman in Batman Returns I I'm gonna go three for nostalgia purposes I I agree like I I think that the again it's just like this movie slash production it's it's more understandable to me that these

issues are present in the 1988 version because john waters was always working on such shoestring budgets uh but by the time it's like a huge uh this was a huge budget movie they had john travolta money so yes you did have the money but not the foresight to have black creatives involved behind the camera which is a mistake we hear about all the time but i think especially in a story that explicitly deals with race at a very specific place in time you know it's ridiculous i hate the fat suit zero out of ten on the fat suit but i think that this movie is so campy in so many ways oh yeah i this movie is so queer coded in so many ways uh for some reason i'm like miss baltimore crabs is a queer song i can't really tell you why that is but i know that it's true

like it's just a very gay movie and that's part of why i love it so much the font of the title on the poster is a rainbow it's iconic i mean it's like there there's you know queer representation in this movie even though none of all the characters are straight it's at an all-time high. And I'm like, not even joking. You're a dry market there. Goodness gracious, people. It's a blast. And I agree that for all of its issues,

it's not nothing that its heart is in the right place. And even though it fumbles, we've talked about it at length at this point, it certainly fumbles a lot. But this movie is not mean spirited, which I think means something. And it's yeah. So I'm going to go three nipples, I think. I'm going to give one to Harvey Fierstein because I'm now really invested in that. I'm going to give one to Taylor Parks, who is one of the great pop song composers of our generation.

She's a legend. I love her so much. And I will give the last one. Ooh, I'm going to split the last one. And I'm going to split it between Elijah Kelly and James Marsden, who, in spite of the Zac Efron of it all, were my top two crushes in this movie. Yeah. I'm going to go four out of five.

Hell yeah. Listen, with its issues, yeah. Even with its very blatant and very obvious issues, this movie is very important to me as a Virgo um and I think like despite the sort of white savior-ness and the fat suit and the like inability to just have fat people be fat people without it being a thing uh for all of their characters. I would say four out of five because it just for nostalgia reasons it just really means the world to me and I think that it's a perfectly casted movie. And so my first nipple is going to Queen Latifah because she's Queen Latifah

of course and she's the perfect motorbath baby and my second nipple is going to the relationship because they're together they go together real bad like carisha said corny collins more like horny collins yes exactly and then my third nipple of of course, goes to, honestly, Amanda Bynes. Because even though she can't sing, she was perfect as Penny in this movie. And I think about the live adaption of Hairspray that Ariana Grande was Penny and she can sing. But I think Amanda Bynes acting as Penny was A1, day one. And then my final nipple goes to I'm Stealing Your Answer, Jamie. Half to Elijah Carey and the other half to James Marsden because I love them both.

They're both fine. And I love an attractive man. I forget that they're possible, but they are in this movie. Because I love them both. They're both fine. And I love an attractive man. I forget that they're possible. But they are in this movie. And yeah. Just you know. Shout out to the queer codedness as well.

Yes. Because again it's pride month. And as your local bi. I will say that I find. Almost every woman in this movie. just as attractive as almost every man it's pretty unbelievable yeah yeah I oh what was I gonna say oh I didn't know Ariana had played that part and it just I I'm an Arian Arianator I am yeah me too I like our music I just think like Taylor Parks writes a lot of it yeah I just think it was like glaring to me what the difference is between the two.

Like Amanda Bynes cannot sing. Ariana Grande can sing, but Amanda Bynes was giving as Penny. I fully believe she understood the vibes of who Penny needed to be. Ultimately, in movie musicals, it's like I would much prefer someone could act than sing. It would be great if they could do both. But I also, oh, that was what I was going to say. Because Ariana is in the Wicked, the live action Wicked movie. And I'm just a little worried because I'm a fan.

But the girl can't act. Hasn't been able to since she was a child. It's concerning. Yeah. Yeah. Like you, Jamie, I'm very worried. Cynthia Erivo cannot carry this movie on her back. It's not fair.

It's going to be interesting to see how it goes because it's like two movies now. They're splitting it. Which also is like wow, you're going to sing Defying Gravity and then make me come back a year later? What are you talking about sing Defying Gravity and then make me come back a year later? Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. The theater kids are going to be feral.

I'm looking forward to it. Well, thank you so much, Kia, for joining us. It is always a damn delight to have you. Come back truly anytime for any movie. Where can people follow you, check out your work, order your book, etc? Yeah, so I'm over on the health site called Twitter. Kia, K-E-A-H underscore Maria. It's the same on TikTok and Instagram, even though I am bad at TikTok. I'm there. And then you can find me on Facebook

at the Kia Brown and my website is kiabrown.com and also again if you like queer YA romance stories where they don't do drugs in a 7-eleven parking lot you can read my book The Secret Summer Promise and I think you'll love it so please buy it because I promise it's good. I'm so excited. That's a secret to my promise. Yeah. Yeah. I bought it in, it's in the other room, but I bought it at Book People in Austin, Texas.

You did? Bring it with you so that if I see you, I can sign it. Okay. Oh my gosh. Hell yeah. You can follow us on the Hell website twitter as well as the other hell website instagram um or app whatever i'm 100 years old and you can follow us there at pectal cast you can subscribe to our matreon where we did do zach martron slash march efron slash zach efron march probably

observed in july october like who knows something so we did march efron and many many other episodes which you can have access to for five dollars a month and that's at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. And you can get our merch over at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast if you're feeling so inclined. And with that, oh, look, the garbage truck is passing by. We've got to get to school. Here we go. Bye. Bye. Hey, everybody. this is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang we've got some exciting news for you

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