The Bechdel Cast - Hedwig and the Angry Inch with Mia Schachter

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

This week, Jamie, Caitlin and special guest Mia Schachter go on tour with their band and discuss Hedwig and the Angry Inch (2001). And speaking of tours... don't forget to grab tickets to the upcoming Bechdel Cast Ten Year Anniversary Tour, starting with shows in the Northeast this October! Tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcast Follow Mia on Instagram at @consent.wizardry and check out their new book, How to Do Consent (Without Sounding Like a Robot) at https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/826772/how-to-do-consent-without-sounding-like-a-robot-by-mia-schachter/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We are going on tour. And we know we've been on tour many times over the years, but guess what? This is a very, very, very special tour that can only happen one time because it is our 10-year anniversary. Oh, my God. We are doing a 10-year. Whoops, we didn't dismantle the patriarchy anniversary tour. Oh, we're so excited. Yeah, we want to really ring this anniversary in in style.

So throughout the next year, we will be traveling around the U.S. and Canada doing our 10-year anniversary celebration show and we are starting we are kicking it off in the northeast this october with shows in new york city ever heard of it on october 12th baltimore october 15th philadelphia october 17th state college october 18th pittsburgh october 19th and boston october 21st hell yes if you do live in those areas and you've been a long time beck till head you will know this is not a leg of our tour that we done since like 2019. It's truly been 84 years and yes I think the show has grown so much since then. We are really going to go big and because it's so close to Halloween we would highly encourage you to dress up as your favorite movie character. We certainly will be doing so and as always with the Bechtelcast live shows there will be exclusive merch.

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The Bechdelcast Hello, listeners of the Bechdelcast. You've tuned in to the episode on Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Cut to four elderly stray people. Bound, bown, bough, bown, bough. And we immediately walk them. I have a guitar. I can do it.

Oh, my gosh. If you do the honest. I don't know if it's in tune, but maybe that fits with the movie, actually. I would not say that what I just did could be described as in tune. Okay, wait. Welcome to the Bechtel cast, the podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus.

But Caitlin, what the fuck is the Bechdel test? It's a media metric created by friend of the show Alison Bechtel first appearing in her comic collection Dykes to watch out for in the 80s has since become a more mainstream media metric.

There are many different versions of it. The one that we use is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names, do they speak to each other, and is their conversation about something other than a man?

Take it home. Woo! Yay! Apples, applause. And today we're talking about Hedwig and the Angry Inch 2001 John Cameron Mitchell. Yet another movie as we celebrate our tenure that you'd think we would have covered it by this time, but through some, we're doing it today. And we have an incredible guest. So let's get them in here.

Let's get them in the mix. Indeed. Well, actually, they've already been in the mix. unbeknownst to you. Literally the mix, if we're talking about audio mixing. They are an author, multimedia artist, and intimacy coordinator for TV, film, and theater. It's their mission to make consent education as digestible and widely available as possible so that you can identify your desires, needs, and boundaries, and authentically express them to others in your own unique voice. and they are the author of the book How to Do Consent Without Sounding Like a Robot that

comes out September 15th. It's Mia Shachter. Hi. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very, very excited about this. Oh, we're so excited to have you. Thanks so much for being here. We would love to hear before we jump into the discussion. More about your book. Tell us more about it.

Sure. It's published by North Atlantic Books. It's coming out September 15th. It's a book of essays and interviews about consent divided by topic. So there's gender, sex, creativity, which I think we'll end up talking about a lot today. I talk about accountability and regret, what consent is and what it isn't. Yeah, those are like the different parts within the book. And then I have each part is punctuated by an interview with someone who, you know, whose like niche realm relates to that topic.

Very cool. Very excited to get into it. We'll link it in the description for all of our, for all of our listeners. I feel like this is a, this is, this is a perfect overlap. Well, with that, shall we jump into Hedwick and the Angry Inch? What is your history with this, I guess, film, stage production, whatever order it came to you in? Okay. I think I saw this movie for the first time in college.

And I was blown away. I grew up on rent. That was a formative musical for me. I was born in 1989. I was listening to that soundtrack by the time I was like eight years old. I had the whole thing memorized. And then I found Headwig and it felt so kind of, you know, aesthetically and like tonally related. And I loved how it was sort of like a musician's.

musical, you know, like it's not a full orchestra. There's like a rock band on stage and it's about a musician and it was very like indie but just such a stunning story. And then I worked at a coffee shop in New York, a chain called Think Coffee. And I was serving John Cameron Mitchell a triple espresso like most mornings. That's a very punk rock. coffee order. Well, and more punk rock, he was showing up in a leather jacket with a motorcycle helmet. And then ordering a triple espresso? Okay, kind of terrifying. That's awesome. I know. I know. But it was so exciting. I do think at some point I worked up the courage to say, like, I'm a big fan, you know? And then I guess, you know, every time I've like been in like a new sort of serious relationship,

I've been like, we need to watch this. Like, it's time to watch Headwig. You know, it's like, Romeo and Juliet the Bazelerman version, a movie called The Apartment, which I also almost suggested. We've covered it before. It's amazing. One of my top, top favorite movies. Also, so interesting from like a consent perspective, especially, like, in the modern era. And Hedwig. So it's just an iconic movie for me. And then I also recently wrote and starred in and produced my own musical. and it's very much, you know, a child of Hedwig. Like, my musical wouldn't exist without Hedwig. Oh, awesome.

That's incredible. Wait, can we know more about the musical? Yeah, it's about my sort of torrid love affair and codependent relationship with a tapeworm that I had for a few years, yeah, unknowingly until it came out. And so it's the story of me like discovering why I've been sick. And then trying to like extricate myself from this relationship, both with this worm, but also like with the identity of ill, of like chronically ill and disabled. And then also like as an artist losing this crutch that like allowed me to kind of hide and stay small and like not go to the.

the party and, you know, just be like, I'm going to stay home. And yeah, like sort of losing that crutch and now feeling like there's nothing stopping me but me as an artist. And then the, the worm takes over the show and I have to kind of work my way back into it as a parasite would. That sounds so interesting. That rocks. That wrong so much. I want to see it. That's so cool. Well, we're doing it again in November in Los Angeles at the elite, Elision Theater. Oh, we live there all the time. We're both in LA.

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, well, then you guys should come. Yeah. Absolutely. I love the Elyshen. Great. Back to Headwig.

Jamie, what's your history with the movie? I had seen it once before and it was such a great experiencing at the first time that I feel like I haven't returned to it because I think I had a really optimal first experience with Headwig. But Mia, to echo you, I was also a huge. rent kid like I yeah I remember when I think rent closed on Broadway when I was in middle school and I lived in Massachusetts and me and my my best friends who were also twins who were obsessed with rent we like devised a plan to go I just it was like a big part of my childhood and also you know

I think a lot of kids you know like found rent and it opened up all these other doors and I think headwig for many of those same kids is one of the first stories you encounter you kind of graduate from being a rent child and then you become a headwig teen maybe totally but i i don't know why but it took me a long time to see headwig and the first time i saw it was in a basement in indiana early into touring as a stand-up and it was just like this awesome stand-up community in fort way in Deanna. It was like this big pocket of queer comics. And I just remember I was crashing with someone and they were like, oh, we're going to have a bunch of people over and watch Hedwig. And so it was like, it was optimal. I saw Hedwig in a room full of like former Hedwig teens who were so stoked that

I had never seen it. It felt, and we'll talk about all of the ways that Hedwig is in conversation with Rocky Horror, but it felt sort of like the experience of seeing Rocky Horror for the first time, where it was just like, you know, for positive reasons and reasons that are more complicated. But just unbridled enthusiasm that I had never seen it before. And like the night became about like, oh my God, someone's seeing it for the first time. How exciting. Also a John Cameron Mitchell fan. The music is pretty unbeatable.

Even though I'd only seen the movie once, I do, like I have headwigs in my rotation. And there's also a lot to talk about. And I'm excited too. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your, what's your history? I saw this for the first time during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005, as I've seen many movies for the first time. And I haven't watched it since. Listeners of the show may know that I'm not the biggest musical head. I do, I find that musicals with like dietic music are easier for me to do.

digest. What does that mean? So diagetic audio is when the music is like coming from within the story. So like when they're playing a show in front of a crowd that's like happening within the context of the world and the story versus non-diagetic audio is any audio that only the audience can hear versus the other characters within the world. So when characters are in a musical and they just sort of like burst into song about their feelings or whatever. And no other characters are meant to really be hearing it. So for example, I love like Josie and the Pussy Cats where they're playing like diagetic concerts and Spice World where they're playing diagetic songs and things like that.

Got it. I feel like the best yardstick for like, because it, I feel like I was mixing it up for years. And the best movie to use as a yardstick is Chicago because they have. numbers that start non-diagetic and then become dietic. Like they have numbers that like straddle it in a fun way. Sure. Yeah. So Hedwig in the Angry Inch has diagetic songs.

But even so, something I'm just like really discovering about myself is that when someone, I just like don't like to watch people sing. I just sort of like completely tune out. Unless it like really pushes the story forward in a meaningful way, which this movie does. as well. Like there's, there's a lot of exposition in the music, but I don't, I mean, yeah, a lot of the songs are just straight up and then this happened, but in a way that's awesome. I don't know. Yeah. I know. I'm, what I'm saying is that I appreciate elements of this movie, but I'm not the biggest fan. So I'm the villain of the episode once again. You don't have to come to my

musical. No, I do. I actually like watching a live musical on the stage. Titanic. Yes, you know. Oh, wow. I traveled across an ocean to see Paddington the musical. Wow. I like a live musical on the stage. Okay.

So I will be there. Yes. Okay. We will be in attendance. I should add to my history with this movie that I did actually see John Cameron Mitchell do it on Broadway. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah.

It was incredible. They like, they revived it and they did it with a rotating cast of Headwigs. So like Tay Diggs played Headwig. That's the. headwig, I was like, that would have been my headwig of choice. Yeah. Well, I didn't know when John Cameron Mitchell did it that Tay was, I think, next rent, rent history there. So anyway, I saw John Cameron Mitchell do it live and it was incredible. That sounds amazing. Yeah, I wasn't sure because we've covered throughout the course of the show, there is like an interesting pattern of,

I would basically, I didn't know if the show started on stage or went on stage. I think it started on stage and then it became a movie and then it got revived on stage. And by the way, I realized this this time that I watched the movie, because I watched it last week in preparation for this, John Cameron Mitchell didn't write the music. No. I always just assumed that he did. I know. I feel like it's because he embodies Headwigs so fully that you just assume. But it was like, oh yeah, I guess you can't be good at that many things. So it's... Well, but he does sing, you know, like he is obviously musical. Right. So, but I don't know. know, maybe he just didn't feel like he could write the songs. I don't know. Yeah, he and a writer

named Stephen Trask co-wrote the book for the original stage production. And then John Cameron Mitchell wrote the screenplay for the movie. But then the other songs were written by, I didn't write it down. Well, this is like another way that Hedwig feels more in, because I, because we've covered movies that have started, like movies that have non-conforming gender main characters that started as a movie and went to Broadway, usually with diminishing returns. I'm thinking about Tutsi.

I'm thinking about Priscilla Queen of the Desert. This is Doubtfire. And to Wong Fu all have become Broadway musicals. But I think that this sort of firmed up in my head. I was like, oh, Hedwig is way more like Rocky Horror because Rocky Horror was like staged to move. back to stage and has like more of an indie spirit than like a successful movie being turned into a Broadway musical.

Right. Right. Right. But anyways. Yeah. Okay. So we've, we'd all seen it before. And I think that this is the first time I've seen Hedwig in the angry inch that I like knew

who Miriam Shore was. So that was delightful. I don't, who is that? Miriam Shore plays Yitzhak, headwig's husband. Oh. And I really enjoyed her in the TV land series Younger. And so I was like, wait, I record it anyways. Yes.

And right. I've seen her. She's been around for ages. And I forgot her name. But yes, I've seen her. I mean, oh, my God. I can't even remember what I've seen her. And I've seen her.

And she's just like ever present. You've been. If there's one thing I love, it's a Gen X character actor. And so this movie is rewarding in many, many, ways. Yes. Oh, and she was in just like, and just like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's been in so many things. And, and, and, and is so disguised in this movie. Right. Yeah. Which I'm interested to talk about further as well. But yeah, I guess should we get into the recap, but take a quick break first? Sure. Sure. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it.

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and the Angry Inch. We meet Hedwig, played by John Cameron Mitchell, the lead singer of a band called Hedwig in the Angry Inch. They are performing at a show that's at like a family diner in Kansas City,

and they are like walking a bunch of people out of the room. This is like, this scene is so, as I mean, Caitlin, I know you have this as well, but like as a, as a long stand-up comic who has performed in so many rooms full of people who are just straight up angry to see you. Yes. I feel very seen by this movie and also slightly triggered by it.

We were like, oh, a restaurant full of people who are like, get the hell out of here. Yeah, who didn't know a comedy show is about to happen and then it's sprung on them and they're furious about it. Well, doesn't she play, she plays at like an old folks home at some point, like a nursing home at some point? traveling traveling artist PTSD she perpetually performs for audiences that do not want to see her yeah very true yeah which is which is like artistically like in and it very like the movie and i love it but it was like damn it hits yeah i mean i think that's part of why it hit in that basement in indiana because we had sort of just done a show that was not dissimilar to that setting yeah okay so people are walking out of this show. And it's implied that part of the reason, if not the entire reason, is that

Hedwig is wearing, you know, big exaggerated drag makeup and a big blonde wig. And the people in the crowd are boring, queerphobic, straight people. Hedwig sings a song about the Berlin Wall. We will come to learn that Hedwig was born in Berlin in 1961, the year that the Berlin Wall was erected and she grew up in East Berlin and we'll learn more about that in a bit. But first we get better acquainted with one of Hedwig's bandmates slash her romantic partner, Yitzhak, played by Miriam Shore, who is upset because a famous musician named Tommy Nosis, played by Michael Pitt, comes on the TV playing the same song that Hedwig and the Angry Inch just played. We will come to learn that this is a song that Tommy Nosis stole from Hedwig. And then we discover

that Hedwig and her band are on tour and they are like following slash stalking the tour that Tommy Nosis is doing. And it seems like, and this will be later confirmed, that Tommy was a former protege of Hedwig, but something happened between them and they had a fallen out. The band's manager, Phyllis, played by Andrea Martin of everything. Oh, big fact, regretting. Also an incredible singer in her own right and so interesting, like musical theater actress, and so interesting that she's in this show and doesn't sing a peat. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, Phyllis tells Hedwig like, hey, maybe stalking Tommy isn't the best idea, especially because you're tangled up in a lawsuit right now because Hedwig is suing Tommy for stealing her music.

Then Hedwig and The Angry Inch play another small show. We get an animated sequence about Hedwig pondering who her other half might be. There's a reference to Plato's symposium. Yeah, it's very, it's very heady. And this is like, God, it makes me wish I had seen this movie when I was 14 because, you know, the Plato of it all would have really been like, whoa. I believe it's an Aristophanes story. I studied philosophy in college. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. It's the Aristophanes two halves where people get split into, yeah, in Plato's symposium, the playwright Aristophanes explains that humans were originally spherical. creatures with two faces, four arms, four legs, and then they, Zeus punish them and split them apart. And so everyone spends their lives, like, seeking out there missing other half. It's, yeah, it's like the soulmate origin story that there is really only one true love out there for you. Right. And I believe the title of the song is the origin of love. Sure is.

And then Hedwig also reveals more about her childhood that she was raised as a little boy named Hansel by a German mother and an American GI father who eventually left after Hansel's mother kicked him out. For sexually abusing Hansel. Yes, which is, I think, more explicit in the stage version than the movie, but I was, it feels pretty explicit in the movie. Well, it's interesting because in the original reviews of the movie, they're like, it's not explicitly said. I'm like, I felt differently, but I was, okay, I'm glad that you're on the same page

there because I was like, I feel like it was maybe not in actual words, but it is like heavily we're told. Well, visually, it's interesting. It is very downplayed. He's sort of, they have clothes on in the bed. It looks like they're sleeping, spooning, but then the mother violently wrenches the father away and, you know, slaps him, punches him and says out, out, out, and tries to, you know, kicks him out of the house so you know what happened. But we don't see, I think it's a beautiful representation where like we know, but we didn't actually have to see it. Sure, yeah, it's all in the mother's reaction. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. So we get that bit of backstory. And then we also learn that Hansel spent his childhood listening to and being influenced by American rock music.

Back in the present, the next show that the band does is at a Menzies fair. Oh, yeah. Which is so funny. And no one's at their stage. There's one there. One person. During this performance, Hedwig reveals more of her backstory. which is when she was in her early late 20s, still living as Hansel,

meets an American soldier named Luther, played by Maurice Dean Wint, who takes a liking to Hansel and offers up a bunch of American candy and becomes Hansel's like literal sugar daddy. Yeah, Gumi bars. And then the two of them get together romantically and devise a plan for Luther to more or less smuggle Hansel out of East Berlin to the U.S. So the plan is that Luther will marry Hansel, but same-sex marriage is not legal at this time and place.

So Hansel will take his mother's passport and start using her name, Hedwig. But also, Hansel will need to have surgery to remove his penis so that he can pass as a woman. And I hope I'm describing this correct. because Hedwig is trans, but more out of legal necessity than identity. Yes. This was something that I found, we can talk about it more after we're done with the recap,

but I was particularly struck by her gender journey this time watching it because I knew I was going to be talking about it. And so I was thinking about like, you know, I want to have a discussion about her gender, but it's definitely not going to be in the like, you know, what we would call proper terminology. Like, I don't, I was thinking, like, I don't even know if this movie would pass, like, Glad's screening for transphobia. Sure. Because it's like, it's a totally bizarre story that doesn't, yeah, I mean, I think it sort of runs the risk of being accused of, like, it's not really it's not a detransition story but it's like it's not the kind of story that makes

you think oh yeah like let's support you know if you're trying to convince anyone that like trans people deserve rights and that this is something you're you know that a lot of people feel like they're born this way and like this is not the story that's going to change your mind you know which i kind of didn't remember exactly like my my vague memory of this movie from when i saw it like 20 years ago I was like, oh yeah, headwig is like, it's not as though headwig always identified as a woman and then had like gender affirming surgery. You transition for survival, but not the kind of survival that we usually talk about with trans people being like gender affirming care is like life saving. You know, it's like it was it was for right legal purposes. It was like under duress.

Yeah. Well, it's also like I, it's so true. Everything I've seen, I mean, I've read a lot of analysis of. analysis of this movie and it's so so polarizing and whether the critic and there's been so many gender non-conforming people and trans critics who have written about this movie whether they're like pro con or somewhere in the middle the word messy comes up everywhere as a positive or a negative and that's just like inherent to the story because it's like I don't even know I was like struggling with do we talk about headwig transitioning or be

being transitioned because she, like, Hedwig doesn't want to transition. Like there's no, we have, there's nothing about Hedwig that we're told. Headwig, it's so, yeah, it's so, it's so, it's just messy, right? Because it's like, Hedwig, what we know about Hedwig is Hedwig wants to be an androgynous rock star. Yeah. And Hedwig becomes an androgynous rock star. And then there's also all this other shit going on.

And like, it's just, it's, yeah, it's messy. Exactly. In any case. Hansel has surgery to become headwig, but the doctor botches the surgery and leaves headwig with, as she describes it, a one-inch mound of flesh between her legs, an angry inch, hence the name of the band. And then we cut back to the present, and the band performs a song at a show about the angry inch. And some of the crowd is horrified. Again, a lot of the people watching these shows are kind of there by accident.

And so a brawl breaks out between the band and their fans and the queerphobic audience members. She's at like a trucker bar at this point or something. It's like not the right. I'm like, who books this? Yeah. Yeah. Phyllis maybe should be booking different venues. Yeah.

There are queer bars all across the U.S. Yeah. Anyway. Undoubtedly, in the town's. the cities that Tommy Nosis is stopping him with his huge tour, there is for sure queer bars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It says to see like Phyllis might be operating on some old directories, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we cut back to the flashback where shortly after Hedwig and Luther arrive in the U.S., Luther leaves her for someone else, a young man. And this happens at the same time that the Berlin Wall, falls and headwig realizes oh no if i had just waited a little bit i wouldn't have had to have

that surgery can i talk about this scene this scene was like it's it's the most heartbreaking i think totally agree in the whole movie because she also doesn't say anything she's like slumped down in this like bark at lounger yeah next to a tv just kind of like she looks you know almost dead and he's standing in the doorway of their trailer, like they're living in an RV. He's standing in the door with a twink. And the twink is carrying his luggage, like, you know, chases him out of the trailer, barely, you know, struggling with his luggage. And it's like, oh, he really just wants, like, an assistant.

Like, I don't know, you know. And then, right, what you see. So they leave and you're left watching Hedwig, she just like slowly turns her head to the TV that's next to her that's playing the news that the Berlin wall fell. So she could have stayed in Berlin. She could have not left her mother. She could have not gotten this surgery, you know,

and not ended up like completely uprooting and destroying her life somewhat. Like all of this was for nothing. And it's just, it's done almost entirely inside. silence. Agree. Yeah, it's just, it's devastating. It's so, and I think I was trying to think of like other, it's also just like such a specific devastation that I've never really seen anywhere else of like, Hedwig did everything

that was necessary. But if the timeline had shifted by a year, it would be just a totally different story. And I mean, there's so, again, just speaking to, and I hope I'm not like, yeah, this movie is such a minefield. But all of the ways that, like, Hedwig is, there's, like, distance as Hedwig figures out who they are, that's also a cultural thing, right? It's like, Hedwig is also caught between this German identity and this very American identity that is almost like, on this viewing, I was like, oh, Hedwig is almost like doing American drag

as well. Yes. Because it's like she's performing this Americanness. she's performing an American rock star even though when we cut back to Hansel like Hansel's like almost comically German coded like gummy bears

and so it's just like there's all of these different layers to who Hedwick is and I feel like obviously gender takes literally center stage in this movie but I was like oh there's also like this big cultural battle that is going on inside of Hedwig as well of like just where where am I supposed to be?

Yeah, displaced in so many ways. Yeah, right. And I mean, I feel like Luther is also a fascinating character because when he approaches Hansel, he seems to think that Hansel is a cis woman. Right. And says, like, hey, girl. And then is sort of surprised to see that Hansel has a penis. But that doesn't deter Luther.

Luther, who is an American soldier, which is like supposed to be the embodiment of masculinity, but he's clearly queer. And you get the sense that Luther never loved Hansel, more just like fetishized him. Yeah. So for Headwig slash Hansel to make this huge sacrifice for someone who didn't even love them is like so. And so Hedwig is very, very depressed about this. And then what follows is a song that seems to be about like making the best of this situation, putting on makeup and wearing wigs. Oh, yeah. Put on my makeup.

Yeah, that's one of my favorites. Yeah. It's really good, especially the sing-along bit at the end. It's so campy too. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So back in the present, the band continues to stock Tommy Nosis's tour.

And things are getting tense among the bandmates. Hedwig yells at someone that you can't put a bra in the dryer. It'll warp. And then Hedwig starts to divulge the backstory about Tommy, where Hedwig used to be Tommy's babysitter when she was in her late 20s, and Tommy was 17. Uh-oh, that's something we'll also talk about. Yeah, she was, well, she was babysitting his baby sibling.

Yeah. Who I would imagine is from like his dad's new family. Like he hates his dad. Right. And so like Tommy was around, but she wasn't his babysitter, was my impression. That makes sense. Even so, he is underage. It plays into a lot of negative stereotypes around queer people as well.

Like it's just as predatory. Yeah. So we'll talk about that. What's happening in the meantime? is that Hedwig is like getting back into her love of music. And so she takes Tommy under her wing and coaches him and teaches him about music and also grooms him both hygienically and predatorially. And they develop a romantic relationship, although Tommy avoids Hedwig's angry inch until one day

they start getting more physically intimate. and he discovers it and freaks out. And then Hedwig berates him for not accepting her as she is. And then he kind of storms out and they break up. Back in the present, Hedwig's bandmate and partner Yitzhak announces that he's leaving because he got cast in a production of rent and once a divorce from Hedwig.

Ironic crossover. Rent is a recurring theme in this show too. Yeah. Yes. It's a motif for sure. And Hedwig is furious and rips up Yitzhak's passport. He's an immigrant from somewhere in Eastern Europe, I think maybe Croatia. Yitzhak also makes me think Jewish, which, you know, just the German background there is interesting, like the German Jewish coming together thing.

Also confusing gender stuff because later Yitzhak is a woman in. a dress being like passed around by everybody in a crowd right at the end like towards the end yes wait i might have missed i thought that was i thought that was headwig wait no did i it's yitzok oh dear okay yeah right so then she rips up his passport and um what was i going to say about oh yeah that it's like a step too far for a lot of people including Andrea martin phyllis the tour manager where they're like, oh, you're like a despicable person. It's like they, she's crossed a line. Yeah, Hedwig has some anger issues, we'll say. And Phyllis quits and yeah, things are very tense in the band. And then Hedwig, who has started working as a sex worker, has a brief reunion with Tommy, who, again, has become a famous.

musician by stealing Hedwig's songs. They reunite and like sort of reconcile very temporarily, but then paparazzi see them together and take photos that get published in gossip rags about how Tommy was with a trans sex worker, which Tommy denies. Yeah, he says, well, hold on. Can I insert? Okay, so right before that, Tommy pulls up in a limousine to pay. pick up Hedwig while she's working as a sex worker.

And she gets in the car. And again, in silence, he takes his album and it says like songs written by Tommy Nosis and a Sharpie and he puts a little carrot and writes out like by Hedwig. I don't remember her last name. Robinson. Robinson. The idea being he's trying to kind of make peace here. Right.

And say like, you know, let's be collaborators again. Mm-hmm. And then through, I actually don't remember what happens, but they end up on kind of a bender, right? Yes. Yeah. They're driving around together and then they crash into a truck or something. And that's when, you know, page six, their faces, their mugshots come up and he says, I don't know that woman. I've never met her in my life.

And he's suddenly like swearing her off again. Yeah. So it's like, it's a huge betrayal. For sure. Yes. but then headwig goes on talk shows such as the rosy o'Connell show to which i think is pulled from an actual clip of the rosy o'dolle show during the off-broadway run prior to this because i read that yeah that rosy o'donnell had like the production of headwig on the show and it like caused a bunch of

assholes to be upset about like headwig in the angry inch on daytime tv so i'm i'm assuming it's a clip from that don't know for sure but Either way, Hedwig is talking publicly about her experience, her side of the story, and becomes famous in so doing and performs a big show. Although at the same time, Hedwig seems to be kind of unraveling, and she rips off her wig and dress. And then this is where things start to become surreal, so I might need some help with what's going on exactly. but Headwig goes to watch Tommy perform, but it's not clear if... I think it's... I think at this point we're in, like, Dream World.

Dream World, yeah. Yeah. In this scene, they seem to kind of reconcile again. And then we see Hedwig perform with her band once more. But this time, she's doing so dressed kind of as Tommy. And I had to look this up, but what seems to be going on here is that... that Hedwig created her other half. So that reference to Plato Symposium and finding your other half,

it's that she created her other half out of herself. This is also like there's like a fight club interpretation. Yeah. That they were the same person the whole time. Yes. And when I showed this movie to my partner, I had never thought this before. But at the end, he was like, so did she die? And I was like, what?

Whoa, okay. Wait, now that I think about it, because they wrote the same songs. Right. They're on the same tour, more or less, in the same cities. Whoa. I know. I know. It changes.

That would help resolve some of the messier elements of the movie also. Well, I'm also now lost in like someone's Tumblr synopsis of this, where they're saying that You know, you said, like, Hedwig looks like Tommy, and it's like, has she been Tommy the whole time? And Michael Pitt, to cast Michael Pitt, I mean, he is like an exceptionally kind of androgynous 90s star, you know? He was like in the vein of Leo in that time. I don't want to be it. I don't want to be mean. But he was kind of like Leo light, you know.

Sure. Yeah. Leo wasn't available. It happens. Exactly. Exactly. Right. That's interesting.

I hadn't seen that interpretation. and I mean there's so many ways to look at this movie it's like there's a trillion interpretations but that would make sense of like headwig looking at a younger version of themselves like reconciling with a younger version and like all of the pain and confusion which is definitely I think a nice thing to consider and not that hurt people hurt people which is like what yeah like I think the more surface reading of it it ends up being so tough. I was really surprised. I think I was just like so drawn in by the music and the the vibes on my first viewing all those years ago that I mean the relationship between Hedwig and, you know,

like it's just so tremendously complicated in a way that, you know, we're so tuned to be rooting for Hedwig. But like Tommy, it, I'm rooting for Tommy. I feel for him, you know? Something that also we haven't addressed here is that Tommy is like a really religious Christian. Yeah. And so he like, first of all, that's like part of his aesthetic.

Like he, she draws the cross on his head. Right. And that becomes like his sort of go-to, like brand. Very rock star vibe though. I feel like, yeah, rock stars in Christianity. Yes. And then he talks about like in that scene when he comes home so angry about his dad, he talks about something, I don't remember, but like in Christianity that he's like sort of trying to like justify them being together and like Hedwig being the way that she is through this like biblical lens. Do you remember this?

Eve was made out of Adam. Yes. Eve was made out of Adam. Right. And like why would Eve just wanted to know things he says. Like why would we punish? And then right, that comes back again later in that moment. And headwig is just like, I don't need.

to explain this in some like godly terms like I just am who I am and she's like love the front of me honey you know that line that's like so crushing but I'm my partner's interpretation of her dying is coming back to me I think he thought that she died in the car crash interesting so then everything after the car crash is I know wow interesting yeah because I mean if you think about it in what world in the early 2000s would an ostensibly trans woman shoot up to superstardom. Right. In such a queerphobic society at that time. So maybe it is sort of like a post-death fantasy landscape.

Yeah. I see the vision. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. There's just so many. I know. I also am reading, okay, like this is not what I thought was.

going on with the Yitzhak thing. But I wonder who this cute, like, sweet person writing on Tumblr about this, about this show. Like, who are you? But so that Yitzhak is in fact a trans woman. And so the beginning of the movie where Miriam Shore is playing a man, that that's someone who wants to transition to be perceived as a woman. So Yitzhak and Hedway begin to embrace themselves as they really are.

And Yitzhak is allowed to transition to be a woman. Being a woman. Yeah, which is so interesting. And also like the casting here is because I feel like now, if that was, if that is in fact the story, now they would cast probably a trans woman who was okay being in drag as a man. Yeah. So that when she, you know, becomes what her true self is, if we're going with this interpretation, that she is actually herself as a trans woman. Interesting.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what exactly was the intention with the Yitzhak character because it's a cis woman actor, Miriam Shore. Yes. Playing a man. So I wasn't sure if we were supposed to interpret Yitzok as trans mask. Or if just because genderqueerness is already such a prevalent theme in this story? Yeah, it's like one of the many things that like the 2001 of it all kind of muddles. Right, because I'm like, is it simply just that the filmmakers were like, what if we have a woman, play a man?

Because why the hell not? And then I found a quote from John Cameron Mitchell talking about him and his co-writer, Stephen Trask, developing and casting the character of Yitzok. And so he says, quote, Stephen thought we really needed a female voice, so he suggested, why don't we have a woman playing a man? And then we met Miriam Shore. There was no question that Miriam was head and shoulders above the rest in the auditions. She had this perfect balance of believable butchness and an incredible voice. Unquote, he goes on to talk about how talented of a vocalist Miriam Shore is, but that's kind of.

know the only thing I found as far as insight about Yitzhak's gender. Okay. So I'm leaning more toward the filmmakers just wanted to play around with gender and their casting choices, which I'm here for. And I like that Yitzhak is very open to interpretation. But yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what the intention is. And sometimes that's because the answer is there kind of wasn't one. drug. Exactly. Okay. And then what happens at the end of the movie? And then we'll take another

quick break and get really fully into the discussion. But as this big show is happening that Hedwig and the Angry Inch are performing with Hedwig looking like Tommy, Hedwig gives the blonde wig or a blonde wig similar to what Hedwig had been wearing. Passes the crown, so to speak. Over to Yitzhak. And then the movie ends with, another quite surreal moment of Headwig more appearing as like Hansel walking naked down the street

at night. Away from us, yeah. The end. Right. So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and really dive in. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Do we want to jump right in? Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish right inside the free iHeart radio app.

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Oh, boy. Mia, is there... Where would you like to begin? Well, I mean, I touched on it while we were doing the synopsis, but I was really... struck this time around by headwigs very complicated gender journey that like certainly doesn't follow you know any like common trajectory and you know turns everything we know on its head about like and certainly the arguments that are used to like change policy around trans people like this story might even um

you know, kind of like... Set things back a bit. Jeopardize. Yeah. But I think it's incredibly necessary because even though this isn't a true story, like, things like this have happened. And it's also interesting because there's like, you know, there's like conspiracies around like forced transition.

And I think this is a really great example of what that could look like that's more likely than any trans person forcing anyone to transition, which is like the sort of conspiracy idea. Right. Right. Well, I think what might inform why this gender journey that the character of Hedwig goes on is so messy, as many critics have described, is the sort of conception of this story where, and I'm pulling a lot of this from an oral. history of this like the original stage production and then the movie and then the Broadway stage production an oral history in Rolling Stone compiled by Jennifer Wood where many of the key players including John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask were interviewed and

so basically what happened here is that these two became friends John Cameron Mitchell and street in stephen trask they're hanging out at this place called the squeeze box where stephen trask worked at the time this was like the early mid 90s and john cameron mitchell was interested in performing there but it it was a drag club so stephen was like well i can get you a gig but you'll have to perform in drag which john cameron mitchell had never done before so he starts thinking about what this character could be that he creates and what that might look like. And he developed a sense of a character that was loosely based on a babysitter he had from childhood named Helga, who he later found out was also a sex worker.

So Hedwig, the character, started to come together from that. And then John Cameron Mitchell was also thinking, okay, well, if it's me, performance, in drag, how do I explain all of this? How do I explain this Helga, like, inspired headwig character? And so, and I'm just pulling a quick quote here from the Rolling Stone oral history, John Cameron Mitchell said, quote, I started thinking more about the character and the transgender aspect, the sort of castration angle, and the involuntary sex change just came to me. unquote. So it all just kind of happened. Yeah. Created like conceptually. And then John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask started working on songs for this headwig character to sing. And they

started piecing the show together. And they would put it up at different small venues around New York City. They would polish it over the course of a few years. Eventually it gained a bit of a cult following, a film adaptation was in the works and then kind of the rest is history but that was the creative conception of this character and this story interesting i mean that origin story actually like supports the interpretation that tommy nosis and headwig are in fact the same person because john cameron mitchell was the tommy character in his own life right and then is now playing the babysitter so that he's both you know it's messy it's i i i something that i mean because i i'm so much of this i'm like i just want to talk about it with both of you and continue

to read and figure out because it's just like it feels like you could be on a journey with this movie forever kind of but what i feel very clear on at least is that at least a big issue with the conversations around headwig is that the lack of alternative representation, especially in 2001. There are not, there are barely any movies that are centered around gender nonconforming characters. And so for one of the biggest movies centered around a gender nonconforming character to be so messy and, and, you know, I totally understand why there's so many critics that have a lot of frustration and resentment towards this movie because, you know, there are reads of it that sort of argue that it's catering

to queer panic narratives, even though I don't believe it was intended to be that way. But I think it, like, has everything to do with not even so much John Cameron Mitchell, although there is the argument of like cis gay men, but John Cameron Mitchell's non-binary. It's all very complicated. All I'm saying is, like, this movie being the one that is lifted up and that like, enters the mainstream canon. I can understand people's frustration with that because there were so few mainstream alternatives about a gender non-conforming character at this time.

Right. And the ones that did exist were completely centered around panic, whether it was like Silence of the Lands or Psycho or Crying game. But I really try not to look at works of art that way personally because I am an artist and I try to like look at the artist and what they're trying to do and I think that you know like saying to an artist like people aren't ready for this conversation or something is like yet another form of censorship personally that's not what I'm saying I'm just saying like the way that the media environment of the time received it versus like that's that's what I'm saying

I'm not saying that you're saying this I'm saying like yeah that that critique to me like like like I generally don't want to look at things that way because I want to think about like I'm not saying this is what you're doing Jamie I'm saying that like people are very eager to critique things that way and it sounds like what you were reading was that kind of critique and I think that there's so much value to this movie

and it even though it may you know we keep using the word messy like even though it may have, it certainly wasn't like a painting a trans woman or a gender non-conforming person if we're not so sure like how Hedwig would identify. Also like the language at the time was very different. Like it's not painting her in a good light, but she's a, it's a depiction of like a real person, like a complex person with like a total, you know, full like interiority as opposed to someone who's like the serial killer like. axe murderer, total tertiary character. Totally. Right.

And then I think that there's elements of Hedwig that I've seen criticize. And again, I guess I'll just like cite some of the pieces that I'm looking at. One of the, we've cited her reviews on the show before Sally Jane Black did a review that was like addressing her complicated relationship with this movie over time where she got a lot out of it as a younger person and then grew frustrated with it as time went on. which is valid. And I'm also looking at an, I believe it's an auto straddle article, or sorry, it's in indie magazine, botched surgery, forced transition and gay fear, how Hedwig hurt trans representation. Just to get a feel for what these arguments are. One that I, that chafed with me a bit was I guess I, like, Hedwig lashes out tremendously

at the people in her life in this movie. in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. Like, I think sometimes it's like, and we've talked about this on the show before, there is like a resistance to seeing a marginalized character acting out because there's so little representation. When I think at least we're given all the information we need to understand why Hedwick is lashing out in this way.

Traumatic backstory. The shit this character has been through. Yeah. And that, you know, in the story, like, I guess maybe it's post-carcross death question mark in this dream sequence, however you choose to see it, that Hedwig's character is met with understanding and forgiveness by the people that Hedwig or Hansel or wherever we land, who knows, has hurt in their life. And like, I guess, yeah, the one criticism that I really kind of was like, well, you know,

it was like, well, she's so cruel to her husband. Like absolutely, you know, tearing up the passport, diabolical. But also so obvious why she would do that. She is so pathologically terrified of abandonment because she's been abandoned so many times. Desperately clinging. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like so much of Hedwig's behavior that it's fair to be critical of, but it's like in context, it's all there. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And not, it doesn't like excuse the behavior. It's really bad behavior. You know, she like needs him. help, you know, many kinds of help, like anger management therapy. I mean, yeah, she's not represented as a likable person, which I think is interesting as just an artistic choice, a dramatic choice to like make the stock.

She's sort of the, what do they call that, like the, not the antagonist. Like an anti-hero. Yeah, anti-hero. Right. Right, like, you don't like her when you're watching them. Like I'm not like, oh, I want to be her friend. She's so cool. You know, like, I'm like, whoa.

Yeah, like you're, you had a really rough life and you're taking it out on the people around you. I would be scared of you. But it's very in that way, it's like, it's a, you know, it's a picture of a flawed person. And I also think to look at this in a, to continue with this like gendered lens, if her character were a man, you know, these anger issues would read very differently. Like we see these difficult men, you know, Tony Soprano, the guy from Breaking Bad, like we as audiences very often were like so much more forgiving of these like incredibly difficult men. And we're way harsher critics of difficult women. And I'd say even harsher critics of gender nonconforming people and trans women in particular. For sure.

Women of color. Women of color. Absolutely. Well, going back to the. the people who maybe in their younger life would watch this movie and appreciate the representation of any gender queer person because again there was so little else and even even though headwig as a character is I mean they've got an angry inch and an angry outlook on life personality I mean yeah an angry soul yeah but I totally understand audiences admiring

and seeing themselves in this character, especially because, again, there were so few gender queer characters in film at the time. And again, even fewer who were actually characterized as complex dynamic human beings with backstories and interiority. So even though audiences might not look at headwig and think, I want to model my behavior on how Hedwig behaves and treats people, there was still obviously plenty of value in the character of headwig from a representation and visibility point of view totally there's also a ton of gender nonconforming or trans artists who love this movie and i mean i like this i i was reading through just like my person this is my sample size but like vera drew really really enjoys this movie a writer i love very much harmony colangelo makes a strong case

for sort of what we were talking about earlier where like the issue here is the lack of other representation versus headwig being someone to culturally vilify and I think that I mean in that way it again sort of feels very in conversation with rocky horror where there's I think we see very similar narratives around people who are and especially queer people who are still figuring out like who they are being really drawn to rocky horror as a young person, especially the closer to it coming out, because that was what there was. That was as close as you could get in a mainstream sense in a, in a suburb or whatever at Blockbuster. Right. To finding a story about a gender nonconforming character, even if that story is extremely messy. And it doesn't like Frankenfurter kill people? Sure does. Sure does. And I think, doesn't he call him or she call, they call themselves a,

transvestite. Yeah, like using outdated language. Right, right. But it was also made in the 70s. And also not for nothing. Both of what these movies also have in common that I think make people very forgiving of the, like, trickier elements are great soundtracks. Great soundtracks.

Great costumes. Yeah. Yeah. Great performances. Absurdity. Fun camp. Yeah. Totally.

I'm also thinking about the ways that like as the culture changes and the language changes, the critique sometimes. like comes with the language. Like for example, you know, someone like Gertrude Stein, totally gender nonconforming person, but there wasn't like language for that at the time. And so, you know, transphobes now are not like hating on Gertrude Stein. Right. Because in all the history books like she's talked about as a woman, you know, where

know, whereas like with this, I mean, I could even see had Hadwick come out or something like this story at an earlier time. We wouldn't be talking about her as a trans woman. We would be talking about her as like a man who was forced into this because of the politics at the time for safety. And it would just be like a very, very different story. But this was the 90s and the gender, you know, gender bending was like the terminal. in the 90s. And like this was a very gender bendy story. But I'm also, you know, as I watched it this time was really struck by the fact that as

far as we know, there's not a single actually trans person or gender nonconforming person in the cast. Like Miriam Shore. Aside for, well, John Cameron Mitchell uses he, him pronouns still. but identifies as... He said he prefers the term androgynous. Uh-huh. But I don't know if he would have identified that way back in 2001 when the movie was coming out,

because he came out as and I think 2022. Yeah. Yeah. My guess is that he would have identified as a gay man. As a gay man. Right. Right. Which is, again, like a lot of similarities with Rocky Horror where it's like a story

of a gender non-conforming character who, you know, at the time, or at least it would of a period of time is being told from a cis POV. Yeah, I think again and again, I just come back to, like, I do understand the criticisms around, especially like the idea of like this very traumatic transition that is inherent to this story, but I can, you know, I see very much the point of view of gender non-conforming and trans viewers being like, okay, this is getting like this tremendous platform and stories about trans people just existing in the world. I mean, very much just don't exist in 2001. So it is like a very specific cultural moment. But that's, again, that's not on John Cameron Mitchell. And I do want to point out that three first names

is kind of, it's always a red flag. It's kind of the ultimate red flag. I'm troubled by people with two first names, but three is just ridiculous. What about people with last names as first? names. Oh, I think that that's kind of charming. I don't know why. Like a man named Smith or something. Yeah. Yeah, I knew a kid in high school named Newman. Like, his first name was Newman. Or like a Parker kind of fun. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, of course, everyone's allowed to have their opinion and their critique. And I just in my life, in the last, I don't know, five, six years, like as an artist and like really coming into that part of my, own identity. Like, I've noticed that, like, the less I critique and judge and, like, look with

this, you know, microscope for, like, what I can say is wrong about something, the less I think people are doing that to me. So I've just tried to be in the practice, and my partner is really good at this, like, being in the practice of, like, really looking more for what I like and appreciate than what I can, you know, shit on. And again, Jamie, like, I don't think you're doing this. But I've just when we're talking about the critique that's out there, I think there's any number of counterpoints to it, which is like, yeah, there, um, you know, one for me is like, yes, there was not a lot of media about centering gender nonconforming and trans people at the time. But this, this movie showed that there is a market for that, that there is an audience for that.

And that it may be kind of cultish, but like this was a pretty successful, you know, given it's like budget. Like it was a small movie. It didn't cost a lot to make. And it has left such an impression. It's in the criterion collection. Exactly. Exactly. So like, yeah, there's, there's problems with the representation and, and the story itself. And it could bring up, I get why it would even be triggering to people and why people would feel like this is not the conversation that we want to be having about transness. But it has made so much room for deeper, more complex conversations and shown that there are people who are going to want to, you know, consume that kind of art, which I think is like that is revolutionary.

For sure. Yeah, I agree. Because as we talk about on the show all the time, there are movies that we sort of classify as like stepping stone movies that like open the door to. Yeah. For more nuanced representations. And this movie feels like one such example. The thing about this movie that I struggled with more was the predatory nature, the big age gap between Hedwig and Tommy and that being presented without comment or criticism. You said he was 17. Do we know that he's 17?

It said in text. It is. Okay. Headwig says it. I met him. I met him when he was 17. And I was in my, I think, early late 20s. I think like 26 or 27 or something like that.

A decade of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yikes. So he is underage and their first meeting is Hedwig not asking for consent and assaulting him in the bathtub. Well, I just want to paint a broad, like a more clear picture of. Sure. Headwig is in the other room.

We're watching Tommy Nosis in the bathtub, watching Hedwig pacing back and forth with the baby jerking off. headwick comes in finishes him off and drops her card right in the bathtub um you know this isn't meant to make it like any less bad it's just there there's a broader i think as in she's noticing that there's perhaps desire for her obviously it's statutory rape regardless but he's jerking off like looking at her exactly fair that does not equal him giving consent to Tedwick touching him, although he doesn't like... He doesn't ask her to stop and doesn't say no. Yeah.

So it's murky. It's another messy thing. But even so, as we said, it's a statutory situation. And that, again, that's just presented as perfectly fine and normal. Right. Which to me felt more, I mean, I think that the clear outside of just like that is, not a good dynamic regardless of what the like of the people involved but that like it does present sort of another queer panic right archetype I also feel and this is not I mean I think we are all

kind of on the same page here about it I think that viewed from the lens of the androgynous rock star this was incredibly common to see I mean like look at David Bowie's personal history too is like there is and in a way that like I'm not even like giving the movie a pass like certainly not but because I don't think that this that headwig like thematically really ends up doing very much with examining this but like the idea of a rock star or even someone with a rock star persona regardless of gender preying on teenagers I mean there is just like that is the history of rock stars unfortunately yeah but I don't think that the movie is really commenting of on that as much as just presenting Headwig in that legacy is the wrong word but in that pattern of because I was trying to like

it's so because this movie is just so open to a million interpretations that I like in a scene like that it's like there's all of the ways consent is not given it's extremely murky and it's like well what is what is the scene like trying to say is kind of a fun

exercise because I think that there's a way of seeing it that is clearly interpreted as presenting a queer panic moment. And there's a way of looking at it that is like headwig doing the thing that rock stars do by praying on someone underage. And then it's framed comedically with like the button on the end of the scene of like throwing a card at him. So yeah, that that relationship, I struggled. Yeah, she's she's also like she's in like a mothering role with him, a mentoring role with him creatively. She totally grooms him

and the power dynamic where she's the babysitter. I mean, it's just incredibly messy. It's also in this movie, the way that Hedwig is not a likable character and yet she has this villain of Tommy where like she's, you know,

she's been also acting in a way that's like not okay towards Tommy. Yeah. I mean, I don't view, I was, as I was watching this, I was surprised and challenged by how I don't view, I mean, I don't view Tommy as a villain. I mean, I think I understand why Hedwig does because the creative theft is pretty fucking unforgivable. And also, you know, his manifesting kind of her worst fear by denying her publicly and denying

both who she is as a person and denying her artistic influence. on his life, both of which she, I mean, she, Hedwig's whole thing, understandably, is that Hedwig wants to be loved completely and has never been loved completely. And I guess part of what I view the end scene and the removing the clothes and the wig and all that stuff is like Hedwig choosing to fully embody and love themselves because no one is going to do it for you kind of thing. Yeah.

But with Tommy, I, I have tremendous. sympathy for him because it's like think about like how and I think that the movie even though headwig sees Tommy as her op I don't think the movie sees him that way in a way that I appreciate it because like Tommy is you know a very Christian sheltered teenager who you know is put into this very you know headwig has the power in that relationship right and it doesn't seem like Tommy has other people in his life he can turn to. So there's also this, and that's not, that's not Headwick's fault, but like, headwick becomes Tommy's, like, lover and it seems like

guardian and creative steward. Yeah. So it's just like, it's, it's hard to look at Tommy and be like, well, fuck him. He sucks. Like, he does something shitty that feels very in step with the time this movie was made in. And I think, like, I don't know, I guess my reading of the movies, I don't think that the ending, whatever happens at the end, whether it's like, I guess we're getting into Titanic territory now. Is it a dream or does she die? Either way, I don't think it happens. I think that like wherever Tommy ends up, I don't think we really know.

I think that like this is Hedwig's internal battle to just reconcile with the people who she's hurt and been hurt by so that she can move on. Yeah, I think that Tommy from like a. you know, story writing, structural standpoint, like, for drama to give Hedwig, like, a sort of frenemy, like, rival. Yeah. You know, it creates drama. It creates tension. But I completely agree with you, Jamie.

Like, I don't see him as he's, you know, he's a kid. Yeah. He's a survivor of grooming. Right. And he, like, is then launched into stardom, which so many people think is, like, so coveted. and enviable. Like, how could you ever complain about that? But it's incredibly isolating.

It's incredibly, it can be terrifying. You have eyes on you all the time. He has religious trauma. And I also think that, like, if you're putting yourself in Tommy's headspace, nothing, I mean, the creative theft is, is not the most, I will say, not the most, the most unforgivable thing that happens in the movie TV. And I think in some ways, there's a way to view it that it's like Tommy is, can be viewed as and has been viewed in certain readings as a victim and like this is maybe his way of sort of

getting back at headwick by i don't know i mean there's there's so many ways to look at it indeed any anything else i want to talk about i mean we could talk about this movie for a hundred years yeah that was all of my uh those were all my big my big things yeah i think we've covered mine as well. Yeah, I think me too. I mean, I really do love this movie and in all of its flawed glory. You know, I think it shows us so many different perspectives and, and like, watching, you know, kind of torture, two different kinds of, like, tortured artists, figure out how to make their way in the world,

given all these, like, the things that shape them. And again, this movie is a like stepping stone movie is really important. And again, like paved the way for later representation of genderqueer characters. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see like a remake of this movie and how they would go about it. Yeah, I wonder. Yeah. Well, does this movie pass the Bechtel test? You know, I was wondering like how, because it depends.

on how we view the genders of these people, you know? Right. Like if Hedwig is always actually Hansel in there. Well, I also think, like, because the version we use, and I'm like, it feels so silly to get pedantic about the Bactyl test, like, who cares? But, you know, Headwick is, I think, like, undeniably a gender nonconforming character. And so for me, I'm like, gender nonconforming character, like, it's two people of a marginalized gender talking to each other about something that's not a man.

So I think it passes. Yeah. And Yitzhak as well, regardless of how we view their gender, like, it's definitely nonconforming. Right. Yeah. So I would say yes to this movie passing. Yeah. Yeah.

And then comes the Bechtelcast nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I think because of this movie's legacy as a piece of queer cinema, that again paved the way for for later representation that's perhaps less potentially problematic but again this is the nature of so many of these like movies of like a stepping stone nature is that there's plenty of things to criticize about them but they're also sort of ahead of their time as far as especially like mainstream representation goes so I say taking that into consideration I'll give it like three or two and a half. I do feel like it needs to be docked pretty significantly because of the predatory grooming

relationship with an underage character that is presented without comment or criticism. I'll go two and a half. This is a tricky one, but yeah, two and a half. And I'm going to give them to, one to Andrea Martin, one to Merriam Shore, and then I'll give my half-nipple to John Cameron Mitchell. I think I'll go right down the middle to do two mess. Just do two mess. But I think it's undeniable that this movie is tremendously influential. Is still like a quarter century later starting a lot of conversations and also paved the way for a lot of a lot of filmmakers and a lot of movies and uh the soundtrack goes fucking nuts so that's sort of all i have to say on the matter i'll go two and a half as well and i'm going to

give i'm going to give two to john canterer Mitchell i do think he is a genius and i'll give the other half to um stephen trask another queer icon who is not on uh you know not on screen but uh great writer. And also, also a non- sorry, also a non-binary person who generally uses he-him pronouns. Got it. I don't know how it works to like give

certain people. It's just us like, if you want to like pay tribute to something or someone in the movie. Yeah. Don't overthink it. It's, yeah, it's interesting to me that like Caitlin, you feel like there's no critique of the, of the relationship being underage, because I feel like, I feel like that's in there, even though it's not, like,

directly spoken to. I mean, in something as serious as a predatory relationship with an underage person, I feel like there almost needs to be pretty explicit condemnation of that by someone in the story. I guess, I guess where I, maybe this. This is, well, let me know what you think. Like, I think that for me, like, I'm not totally, I think it's interesting that because we're so with Hedwig, the whole movie, and we see whether it's in Hedwig's head or not, everyone forgives Hedwig for what, for what people do to Hedwig, but Hedwig doesn't really

make amends with people for the numerous shitty things that Hedwig does. And again, it's like, I think that that people's mileage will just vary. on that. Yeah. Well, I guess I mean, I think this movie gets docked because it doesn't address

well, it's almost exclusively white people. The only person of color in the story is Luther. Hewitt's husband. And then there's like the Korean backing band that Hedwig was with very briefly, but they're so

good. They're great, but. Barely. They're in one scene. We don't really know anything about these characters. And then they disappear from the story. Yeah. And it's almost like a joke that he's backed by this like Korean girl group. And then, you know, the casting of her husband as black feels more like colorblind casting to me than some like an intentional, like it wasn't written with that in mind. So for me that the movie definitely gets docked for that. It also like, you know, just doesn't really.

Yeah, like intersectionality, it's, there's no like discussion of, yeah, I mean, any, anything else. Like, there's some class stuff. And I don't think every movie needs to hold all of these, but, but it's not. But there was potentially room for things that don't appear. So, I don't know. I want to give it a three, I guess, just because I think it opened doors and really like blasted down walls. for the way the Berlin wall that's right that's right

it tore down walls for gender nonconforming people and for stories and you know not just like in the story itself but like as a film in that moment of time it it really paved the way for like so much of the media that

we've had since that can tackle these themes more deeply as a result so that's where I yeah that's where I land nice hell yeah well thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. Oh, thank you for having me. So much fun. Yeah. Where can people follow your work, buy your book, etc. Yeah. I am on Instagram at consent. onsertory, though I'm considering changing it to just my name. So if you can't find me there,

you can just search my name. My website is consentwisorgery.com. I'm on substack as, unsolicited advice. You can also search my name and consent wizardry will take you there as well. And I teach classes for people pleasers, for artists, for people who want to learn to teach consent. And my book is available like pretty much everywhere books are sold, but you can also get it specifically through the North Atlantic Books website, which I would recommend, you know, very preferable to Amazon or like a giant chain. Yes. How to Do Consent Without Sounding Like a Robot, it'll be out September 15th.

Yay. Congratulations. That's really exciting. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Indeed. Of course. And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast, and you can support the show by signing up

for our Patreon, aka Matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where we release two bonus episodes every single month on an amazing genius theme. matrons get voting rights to pick which movies we cover and all that good stuff it's all for five dollars a month and what a damn good special that is so true i think i think so yeah never changed never changed and with that let's strip naked and walk into the abyss or heaven question mark or heaven who knows towards the light yeah bye bye Vectalcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin

Durante, ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thing. Thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.

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