The Bechdel Cast - If Beale Street Could Talk with Michael-Michelle Pratt

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

One this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Michael Michelle Pratt discuss If Beale Street Could Talk. (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @femmesnfilms on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to MTV's official Challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about

what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus and this is our podcast about your favorite movies analyzed from an intersectional feminist lens. Ever heard of it? I've heard of it. And also have you heard of the Bechdel test? Because that's what we use as a jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion.

A lot of drama surrounding the old Bechdel test recently. Yeah. And I was just like, you know what? Just let other people enter the discourse. Well, Alison Bechdel handled it. Yes. Yes. people enter the discourse well alice and bechdel uh handled handled it yes yes and um we've been saying for six years it's just a jumping off point for discussion yeah if anyone pays attention to the podcast you know that we actually barely talk about the bechdel test and sometimes we forget

about it um but not today i don't think um no, we have a very, very oft requested movie today. I think we've gotten requests for this movie beginning when it came out in 2018. Is that correct? So without further ado, welcome to the If Beale Street Could Talk episode of the Bechdel cast. Indeed. But wait, should we say what the Bechdel test is just for the sake of being thorough? We forgot to do that. Yeah, I'll say it so fast. It is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace

test, in which our version is that two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and the conversation has to be about something other than a man ideally for a narratively meaningful conversation the end happens in this movie tell you what happens in this movie yeah so this is a very frequently requested movie and like all frequently requested movies we waited multiple years for basically no reason to cover it. But we have an incredible guest today, a returning guest. She's a film student, culture writer. She's had work published in Harper's Bazaar, among other publications. You remember her from our episode on widows. It's Michael michael michelle pratt hello welcome back very glad to be back yay what a treat tell us about your relationship your history with if beale street could talk yes so i saw it um in theaters i saw it like when i was with my mom um i think like opening night probably with like a

like a nice size crowd and um and I like really loved it and so I've seen probably twice after that and since my third time watching lovely Jamie what about you pretty short story I've seen the movie before I saw it shortly after it came out I don't think I saw it in theaters, but I did see it out of theaters. It's so beautiful. It's so well done. I love Barry Jenkins. And I had not,

I was hoping, cards on the table, I was hoping that I would have time to read the book before we recorded today. I did not. This is not a James Baldwin book that I have read, but my understanding is that the movie is a very close adaptation. But yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the movie when I saw it. It was

lovely to revisit, especially I feel like because since this movie came out, I guess four years ago, so many of the actors in this movie have blown up like exponentially and so you're like oh my god wait that's teyana paris like just i don't know it was fun to go back and be like wow everyone in this movie is the most famous person in the world now um so that was a treat as well yeah yeah absolutely what's your history with this movie caitlin very similar to yours jamie i didn't see it in theaters but i remember the buzz around it the buzz the especially around the awards season so we're always on bechtel cow's buzz watch we're like what's buzzing how can we how can we participate in the buzz i love participating in the buzz there's a movie I haven't seen that's being buzzed about, I feel so left out.

I'm kind of full of shit. I think you actually genuinely are. You got your finger on the pulse and you engage with the buzz. So I'm usually a little behind the curve. That's okay. Look. We forgive you. Thanks.

But yeah, so I saw it not too long after it came out and I thought it was a very moving film, and I'm excited to talk about it today. It's always funny when we give our relationships with movies that came out not too long ago. It's always quick. It's just like, yep, I saw it. I was an adult. I saw it. Should I recap the story? Let's recap the story.

And Michael Michelle, jump in whenever. I'll be here to add things. I'll place a trigger warning at the top here for such things as rape, physical abuse, and racism. The movie opens on text on the screen. It's a quote from James Baldwin that says, Ever heard of him? Quote, Beale Street is a street in New Orleans where my father, where Louis Armstrong and the Jazz were born. Every black person in America was born on Beale Street, born in the black neighborhood of some American city, whether in Jackson, Mississippi, or in Harlem, New York. Beale Street is our legacy. This novel deals with the impossibility and the possibility,

the absolute necessity, to give expression to this legacy. Beale Street is a loud street. It is left to the reader to discern a meaning in the beating of the drums." unquoted then we meet tish played by kiki lane and alonzo aka fanny played by stefan james they are a young couple in love in 1970s new york city ever heard of it i can i just say really quick and i know that i don't mean to get controversial at the beginning of the episode i would say that new york is kind of a character in this movie you could say that what do we think i think that's pretty accurate i feel like that yeah that's a good you know yeah i know it's never been said before but i just felt like you know this is wow sometimes you gotta break new ground do you know got to say controversial, you know, things. You got to. What a novel idea. You got to shake it up. Oh, OK.

So we cut to Tish visiting Fonny in prison. She tells him that she's pregnant. And I feel like this movie demands more respect than to say that she's pregnant. I think we need to. She's actually not. I wrote that down as well. I was like, this may be the first movie we've covered where she's not pregnant. She's not pregnant. She's simply pregnant. I'm glad we agree. Kind of rare. Right. So she tells them

that she's pregnant and she says not to worry. She and their families will work to get Fonny out of prison before she gives birth tish then tells her family that she is pregnant which includes her mom sharon played by regina king icon legend icon legend won an oscar for this part as she should have yes yes absolutely also her dad joseph played by colman domingo also another icon another legend we love him we talked about most recently in the zola episode i also just wanted to add a quick this performance i think is amazing and i i i love barry's depiction of a father figures and i i i think of him with i think of herschel in moonlight i just think it's such a he's so warm

and wonderful here I just I think it's so lovely to see absolutely absolutely I can't wait to talk more about that because it's just so nice to see that whole scene too where her family is immediately so supportive and so kind and I feel like we're not as viewers we're not like conditioned to see that talk go well with a family in film at all and to see tish be so confident that like she wants this baby that's not a question at all and her family is immediately supportive it's like it's very beautiful because i i also hadn't read the book and so i was bracing my i was bracing myself because i've been conditioned to watch things like this and be like oh they're not they're not going to be accepting and then and then they're and they were so reassuring of her choice of it's

your choice and we're and we're just here to back you and i was just like oh that's that's new and really wonderful right this shouldn't be surprising but it. Right. Like you at least expect, I'm thinking of like other movies where a young person is pregnant or pregnant. And it's, if not met with hostility, met with like passive aggression or like some sort of judgment. And that is not Tish's family at all. Tish's family is the greatest. Yeah, truly.

Also, there is Tisha's sister, Ernestine played by Tiana Paris. And like we said, they are supportive and excited, but they're still apprehensive, but only because the situation is obviously not ideal with Fonny being in prison right now. They invite Fonny's family over his mom,

Alice, dad, Frank, and two sisters, Sheila and Adrian, I think are their names, most of whom don't seem to like Tish very much. Fonny's mom in particular because she's super religious and doesn't think that Tish is good enough for her son. Vastly different reaction. Yeah. They all discuss Fonny being in prison and how they need to find a good lawyer to get him out of there. We also get some flashbacks about Tish and Fonny's past. They had grown up together as best friends. Then they eventually realized their attraction for each other and they got together romantically. We also learn that Fonani wants to be an artisanal wood worker and we see

some of his wood sculptures it's so beautiful too oh it's this is a tiny thing but it does always make me laugh when there's an artist in a movie or a book or anywhere and then you see their art and you're like what is that oh you mean like uh Channing Tatum's terrible furniture in Magical Michael that was what I was thinking I was like it's like when Channing Tatum was making the ugliest thing I've ever seen and everyone's like we've we're genius oh my god gorgeous unbelievable or anytime anyone does stand up in a movie and they're like genius visionary and you're like this is so bad i was like you you've never not stand up clearly you've never never met a comic do you do you write jokes i don't think you do who writes the jokes that are in nightmare movies

that like a stand-up comic performs because i'm always just like i've done huh i've been hired to write punch-up for movie stand-ups before and it's still challenging because it's hard to write stand-up for someone that isn't you i just it's like it's just hard to make translate anyways in the case of fanny i feel like and and barry jenkins is so like known for having like this amazing eye for detail that I wasn't surprised but it was genuinely just like his work is so beautiful and it's filmed so beautifully and okay yeah I'm done making fun of Channing Tatum's table yet again I think anytime it is appropriate to bring it up we should bring up how ugly it is it's so ugly it blows my mind to the

point where i'm like is this commentary and if so on what on what anyways feel straight yeah then we cut back to tish breaking the news to fanny's family that she's pregnant fanny's mother does not take it well she starts spewing hateful uber religious rhetoric about tish and her baby things escalate to shouting and violence when fanny's dad hits his wife and then fanny's family storms out we flash back to tish and fanny sharing a romantic evening together they have sex which is tish's first time having sex a beautiful sex scene by the way very tasteful beautifully shot and one thing i love too that it's completely shot from her perspective and she's not objectified and you're really experiencing it through her eyes and i just

thought it was beautiful and one thing i i remember reading or watching an interview and talking about the he he also he that he had approved it by female colleagues of his and asked female directors their points of view and i was just like wow and i was like wow look at you like you know really take taking a female uh protagonist to heart and really you know thinking about their perspectives i was just like wow i really yeah that that scene was so beautifully done and i felt it felt like it wasn't I think you're totally right Michael Michelle that it's like the fact that we see it from her perspective makes all the difference and it's I loved it and there's nudity but it's not like exploitative it's just very tasteful right which has been a huge conversation on online i was like what is how does that word end

line on line listeners i have covid uh but that's been a conversation that i've seen happening quite a bit recently is like the nudity in movies and how there are some film writers who are like don't be a prude like if it makes sense in the narrative like why not and we've had that discussion in I think from different angles over the years but on a case-to-case basis I mean here it's like perfect I don't know I feel like you just you just know when it's working and when it's exploitative based on how the cinematographer and the director are communicating. Then we learn about Mrs. Victoria Rogers, who has alleged that she was raped by Fonny, which is why he's currently in jail. But the circumstances of this incident, such as where Fonny was that night, make him being the assailant of this crime impossible. But there is this cop who insists he saw Fonny run from the scene of the crime.

So then Tish and her mom speak with the lawyer they've hired, Hayward. He tells them that unfortunately Fonny's alibi isn't going to hold up very well in court because it involves a friend of Fonny's whoibi isn't going to hold up very well in court because it involves a friend of Fonny's who has a criminal record. Not only that, Victoria Rogers has disappeared, possibly back to Puerto Rico, which means Tish has to put up money to pay for special investigators to find Victoria Rogers, something that she and her family can't really afford to do. both tish and fanny feel pretty hopeless we then flash back to fanny running into his friend daniel cardi played by brian tyree henry oh amazing performance another like oh the performances in this movie is just it's hard to like regina king and brian

tyree henry are just i, everyone in this movie is unbelievable. But them in particular, oh my God. I love Brian Tyree Henry so much. He's so good. What's also so great is that the performance is under like 15 minutes. He's really in there for such a limited amount of time. But the thing he's able to do with that time is phenomenal. A testament to his talent.

Yeah. Yeah. It's the his talent. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's the scene season. I mean, they're just, especially the scene at the table where they're all, it's just fucking unbelievable. I will watch anything with Brian Tyree Henry in it.

I know that because I watched the new child's play. Oh, he's looking for Chucky in that one. Oh, okay. Sorry. You said child's play. And I thought fire starter, the new fire starter starring in that one. Oh, okay. Sorry. You said Child's Play and I thought Firestarter, the new Firestarter movie starring Zac Efron.

Oh, I don't know what that is. I was thinking about Chucky. I was like, hey, what's Zac Efron? I was like, that's interesting. Wow. Okay. So I need to watch two horror movie reboots. Firestarter only got like 13 on rotten tomatoes or something i was

gonna see it because zach efron is in it but uh it was not reviewed very well look i'll say i unironically really enjoyed brian tyree henry's child's play it's not he didn't direct it he's just in it he's looking for chucky it's exciting. And that's all I have to say about that. And he's just like, I think, one of our generation's greatest character actors. He's the fucking best. Absolutely. So Fonny runs into Daniel. They talk about how they struggle to find landlords who will rent to them because this country hates black people.

Daniel talks about having been in prison. He was arrested for stealing a car, something he did not do. He talks about how horrible it was in prison. He's crying as he's describing this. Again, just such a beautiful performance. We cut back to the stories present victoria rogers has been found she is in puerto rico and tish or someone in her family is going to need to go there and talk to victoria the date of fanny's trial is getting closer tish's pregnancy is showing then we get some more flashbacks of tish and fanny finally finding a place to rent that a real estate agent played by dave franco shows them i was like is that dave franco hey hey yeah just like okay i guess it's like interesting yeah that that scene is also so lovely that i mean the chemistry between fanny and and tish is just

so beautiful. Beautiful. Yep. One thing that I also really love too is that even though the specific matter is so heavy, Barry's able to find this really nice balance between alternating between timelines where you're able to also feel the levity of them falling in love so he doesn't feel. It's still soul crushing, but it's not so heavy. And so it's balanced out really nicely as you're watching the two corresponding timelines

together totally and that kind of switching between different tones is also like handled really well and it never feels jarring it's just like like you said a good balance for sure okay so tish and fanny they're about to start a life together but but that night Fonny has a run-in with the cop who will eventually claim he saw Fonny fleeing from the scene of the rape of Victoria Rogers. Later that night is the night that Tish and Fonny's baby is conceived. And then Tish's mom, Alice, arrives in Puerto Rico to talk to Victoria but it doesn't go well Victoria is very traumatized and then she disappears again so the trial has to be postponed that scene I mean we'll talk about that scene but everyone's performance that but particularly Regina King but just uh uh that I'm very excited to talk about. I mean, not excited. It's an incredibly painful scene,

but adaptation wise, I'm very interested to discuss that when, when we get there, because I think that Barry Jenkins just like made so many incredible, thoughtful choices in that scene. Yeah. So the trial has to be postponed. Fonny is desperate to be out of prison soon, but things, again, don't seem very hopeful. Meanwhile, Tish gives birth to a healthy baby. And then we cut to years later, and the movie ends with Tish and their son Fonny Jr., who I think is like four years old by this point, they are visiting Fonny Sr., who is still in prison.

He has taken a plea, but is still serving time. So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. The situation is desperate. and she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Michael, Michelle, is there anything sticking out to you? One thing that I was thinking about for some reason, I don't know why, but was the the slap between um Fonny's mom and his whole I find that whole sequence so interesting because we one don't see them after that and then also just the friction between his parents is so interesting and also because he's clearly not religious but his mother is and I just I think it's so interesting and I I also remember seeing in theater and the visceral reaction from everyone around me was so interesting and so I just I find yeah that's very interesting I was curious to that was um of the

two like in the criticism of this movie because I know that that definitely happens in the book and was kept in the movie and I saw some writers that felt that it was good that it was kept and others that were like we didn't need it uh yeah I'm curious what what you both think on one hand I was like I see why I guess to stay faithful and also because the time period but then I was also like this was also deeply uncomfortable just to watch and I was just like hiding behind my hands watching it and I was I mean I thought everything leading up to it i feel i feel like i've met women like that that are very very religious and um and so that felt realistic but just the slap i was like i was like this could have been a captain maybe yeah especially because we see fanny's dad again hanging out with yeah tish's dad and right

no one seems to be challenging that he's abusive to his spouse i don't know i don't think it's like portrayed in the movie as if he is right to do it and it feels like it's the way it's framed in the movie which based on what and again i have not read the book so i can't speak to this personally but based on criticism i was reading in the book it's kind of presented more matter-of-factly because just generally in the 70s domestic abuse was treated more matter-of-factly particularly by male writers but in the movie it feels like it's almost used as this character who we've only seen be horrible to Tish, who we love, and then something horrible happens to her and it introduces a shade of gray to her character, but then it's like, it never comes back,

it's never addressed, and the perpetrator of that violence really appears again and it's as if nothing happened. And if that's, in that case, yeah, it just didn't, I don't know, if that's in that case yeah i just didn't i don't know if there if that was aiming at commentary it didn't super hit for me and it just felt like we saw domestic violence one thing i was also thinking about was i was thinking about james baldwin i know that and a lot of his writing like i remember there was this one essay that i read i think it's like the fire next time i think it's called and he's talking about kind of like i mean i know that he was like an assistant pastor one time he was super religious and then he kind of made her way

and kind of felt like that religion kind of was holding like people back and that and that it and that um there was kind of like a hindrance and then he kind of felt like and like getting away from religion was kind of freeing for him and so i was wondering if for him as a writer um having fanny's mom be the brunt of that and then never seen again was his own commentary on religion kind of matter-of-factly yeah that's yeah that's possible i feel like the movie presents two reactions to fanny's mom's behavior and it feels to me like the reaction of her being struck violently and abused is like that's not how we do it but Tisha's reaction when she says just like that was the most terrible thing anyone has ever said to me and then she gets called a dried up yellow cunt which did

make me giggle a little bit. Shit. You're just like, oh, my word. Language. Yeah. Sorry, everyone, that you heard me say that. I know you were quoting the movie. But I'm wondering if the movie is saying Tish's response is the way to handle this pious, toxic behavior from Fonny's mom. I don't know.

I just feel like it could have been maybe taken out and we could have just had like a verbal kind of altercation. For sure. I agree that you could have gotten the same effect. And I do think it's also like I'm not like ragging on James Baldwin here. It's like I feel like the effect is far more startling when you see it on screen. adjust a couple of moments and scenes for 2018 audiences. I was a little confused why that. I mean, I would be interested in hearing, I couldn't find a quote about it on his reasoning behind that choice. But I mean, in general, it's like, yeah, someone could have said something just as awful back to her and something cutting and cruel that could have really hurt her and produced the same effect. Yeah.

I wanted to talk about broadly how this movie and its representation of black characters and a black family, we see things that we don't normally get to see on screen because so often what we're seeing is harmful stereotypes and tropes usually perpetuated by white filmmakers. For example, we see a black nuclear family, particularly Tish's family, who are warm, loving, unconditionally supportive of each other. We see a black mother and black father being tender and supportive of their daughter too often we see like you know a broken home where the parents are abusive to each other and or to their children maybe there's no father in the picture at all and there's never any

acknowledgement of why fathers and children are separated so like the carceral state is not addressed it's made to seem like a choice as opposed to something that is like cooked directly into white supremacy exactly um so we see again just like this warm supportive love in this family we also see this warm gentle romantic love between two young black people in tish and fanny we see men opening up to each other and talking about their feelings and their trauma in that scene between fanny and daniel more of that oh it's beautiful and you and you see many complicated and loving relationships between black women as well i mean you get even though again it's like tiana paris is not in this movie very much but anytime you see her and tish together it is supportive it is kind you know that tish's mother would do anything for her because you see it and everyone

i mean yeah even though because this is not like a particularly long movie i feel like the like economy of everything that barry jenkins is doing is so like efficient and cool and the actors are doing this incredible job because even when you don't see two characters together very frequently you still understand what their bond is for the most part and i think one thing that's really great is he is he really hones in on the on the theme of community and and i think because he's a black filmmaker and being immersed in black community interesting that that's how we're able to get by and it's so pivotal to the core of of being able to survive what pharmacy is as having community and when you're you're maybe not a black filmmaker you you would understand that and

i think that's very that comes through very clearly uh throughout the film for sure there's a number of kind of voiceover monologues from tish to that effect, which I think most of them are pulled pretty closely from the book. This is, I just didn't know this. This is also James Baldwin's only novel that's narrated by a female character. Interesting. Yep.

Cause a lot of this movie is pretty direct commentary on the legal system, cops, incarceration, the inherent racism within those institutions. And she's talking about how like, the odds are just so stacked against them. And the fact that this is a movie about Fonny getting arrested and incarcerated for a crime he did not commit because a racist cop who works within a racist institution and who had specifically targeted and established a vendetta against Fonny puts him in the police lineup for, again, a crime he could not have committed. And there's all this commentary on how, you know, it's up to the accused to prove and pay for proving the irregularity and improbability of this sequence of events. And such a big hurdle for the families is like trying to find good legal representation and finding a lawyer who will care enough about their case and how that's a huge struggle and even when they do find a lawyer who cares about their case it's still like a small journey for that character to realize exactly how stacked the odds are against yes Fonny which I

thought was just like another that character is barely on screen and it's not like we need him on screen very long but it's like you do get that moment of him and it's like oh my god dude you're a lawyer you should know this um but like that's you know very based in reality of like a white lawyer probably wasn't thinking about that at all like then and often now so and and then also like I don't know just how much this story naturally references issues that you don't really see spoken about in movies or really much of anywhere I also thought it was like really moving and efficient and cool how they addressed racism within real estate too and how that's like explicitly addressed in the text and also still like

moves the story forward and that seems lovely this movie just it's accomplishing so much and providing so much poignant commentary on racism but also like having these moments of levity like you said michael michelle and having so much of the movie be about black love and black community and i want to share a quote from barry jenkins uh from an interview the cast and crew of this film did at the Toronto International Film Festival where this movie premiered and Barry said that the film is quote a very pure story about black love, black life, black family, black community that's rooted in reality. To be black and conscious is to know that at any moment, your joy can be taken away from you. And I think this movie rides on that wavelength where you're going to experience great joyous highs. And at the turn

of a dime, the very, very real lows of being black in Americaica i was even thinking about when they're when they're looking for the apartment with dave franco and and fanny's having him help like carry the pretend fridge and and and they're kind of and even after like talking about their hardships of real estate but there's still that sweet moment of them like looking for the apartment and all that then i was also thinking about like i don't know if you all have seen selby's love with tessa thompson and um nam diaz and all or heard of it they're not really similar at all but it um when i look about the movie it's kind of talking about like yes like yes there are issues being black and it's hard in america but but there but there's still like everyday life happens inside of that struggle and like and're still leading, doing normal things.

Which allows it to avoid the like tragedy porn. Exactly. Kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I liked it. I mean, we've touched on this a little bit when we were talking about Fonny's family. But you get like not just this movie that centers black love and black community. Like everyone is coming from a different place,

like through Fonny's mom and through his family, you, they have like a totally different perspective on life that seems like maybe not as healthy for their kids, but it's like, there is a variety in the, in people that you're seeing. And again,

it's just like amazing how many characters are in this movie while you still know exactly who they are and like they're I mean it's just it's very special I really like it and I was also um not to I mean I feel like we talk we talk about this sometimes where we like hand it to a man for like writing a female character that like isn't horrible so not to do that however I do think that it is worth mentioning uh that this is you know a female protagonist adapted from a male writer by a male writer and it works because she's being treated thoughtfully and like she's a protagonist like yeah i have a quote from barry jenkins here from an npr ever heard of it interview um where he was asked to just sort of talk about tish a little bit and the way that the the headline is framed is on why a character like tish a woman both. And the way that the headline is framed is, on why a character like

Tish, a woman both soft and tough, may seem unusual. And Barry Jenkins says, I think the part of why the character may seem unusual, you know, I can't say this is the first character who's exhibited those qualities. That might be the first character who looks like Kiki Lane and who walks on screen with her natural hair but I think what I see in that is authors like James Baldwin have been writing these characters for decades you know but authors like James Baldwin haven't been adapted into feature films as often as their peers the characters exist and it's incumbent upon people like me to bring them to the screen so again love it great and it's like there there is there are so many great female characters in

this story which should we get to the assault talk yes might as well all right well this isn't gonna feel good gang but here we are we'll take a break after word and and recover okay um so yeah i mean i just wanted to open up that discussion starting with a little more from barry jenkins because this is it sounds like an adaptation not even like change but just focal adjustment that sounds like it was really thoughtful and effective. Again, I have not read the book. Based on what I have read around this movie, originally Victoria is presented not as a villain,

but as more of an antagonist than she's presented as in the movie. Okay, interesting. Because her, I mean, she picks uh fanny out of a lineup and then it's difficult to get in contact with her and so i think that in the book it is framed a little more like it is more her fault that this trial is delayed so much um in addition to obviously the fucking cop who set him up but it right my understanding is it's presented a little less sympathetically towards victoria which barry jenkins i think really really thoughtfully shows incredible empathy for this character while not really

changing that much about the text it's all about about like the performance between Emily Rios and Regina King. So I wanted to share a quote with him about his thought process on portraying that. So same NPR interview. So sorry. It's a good source. We love a credible source. Look, our tax dollars i think maybe i actually don't know um okay he says uh when asked how he chose to depict the character of victoria

he says quote i think the moment that mr baldwin published the novel is a very different moment than the moment the film is arriving in i think that in the early 1970s the semantics the complications of what mr baldwin was depicting were maybe more rounded and i think there are moment the film is arriving in. I think that in the early 1970s, the semantics, the complications of what Mr. Baldwin was depicting were maybe more rounded. And I think they're much sharper now in the 2018 context. Fonny's not falsely accused of anything. He's chosen out of a police lineup. He's placed in a police lineup by an officer who very clearly has a very racist bent. And so for me, when you unpack it that way it was clear that Victoria Rogers was not the antagonist I think all these things are set up all these characters are set up

in a way that you do empathize with all of them and so for me it wasn't a challenge at all to understand that she had just as much a right to speak as Regina King and she had just as much a right to her humanity as Fonny. Yeah, I think because the characters, particularly Tish, her mom, her sister, who have a couple different conversations about this, they all believe that Victoria Rogers was raped. It's not as though they don't believe that. It's just that based on the facts, it could not have been Fonny. But because of this racist cop and the vendetta he has against Fonny, and she's, you know, just severely traumatized by what happened to her, she makes this false accusation, which, for the sake of the story we are following is incredibly frustrating and it means that an innocent man is incarcerated

for years but the movie acknowledges that this traumatized woman is being manipulated by a racist cop right ernestine says you know i believe she was raped but she has no idea who did it fanny was presented to her as the rapist and it was easier for her to say yes than to relive the whole thing yeah um so I think that characterization in that context it presents it in such a way that um you know it's not as though like oh this woman is just making up being assaulted because thanks to rape, that's what a lot of people assume women do frequently. Right. So that is completely avoided, which I really, really appreciated. And you get kind of yet another angle on the ways in which American cops fail people,

where it's not only is he intentionally failing Fonny and setting him up for his life to be destroyed because he's racist he's also setting Victoria up for her life to be destroyed by being so deeply ineffective and so heartless towards victims of assault like he doesn't give a shit what happened to her he's using her to carry out his vendetta against fanny yeah it's one one thing that i do i really appreciate it it's that it's it's very clear that that that that they're both equally victims and that he and that he's just taking these two victims and and putting them against each other just just just hurt one but and then and then resulting in hurting and ruining both of them. And it's very clear that the system is about women or black men.

And I like that that's very clear. Absolutely. And I like, yeah, Regina King's performance in that scene, I feel like the writing is amazing, but it just like, I feel like you can see through her performance what a hopeless frustrating situation it is because you know that this character does believe Victoria and is just trying to have a conversation that Victoria is too traumatized to have and like it's not the fault of anyone there like it would be easier to be angry with victoria but she's not

because she believes her and it's just oh it is like absolutely heartbreaking to watch and also just very like reflective of real life dynamics yeah to this day to this day yeah so i thought that that i mean yeah and just like the way that that scene is framed and played, I feel like shows an appropriate empathy for Victoria. While also clearly we are rooting for Fonny. Let's take a break and we will come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies.

On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you, and it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months.

These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson.

I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Where shall we go? I would not mind talking about... I want to talk about how, in addition to all the other commentary that this movie is effectively making labor and class is another thing that i think the movie addresses responsibly in that there's a lot of mention of tisha's family you know everyone's working class you know Tish's dad works at the docks she ends up getting a job in a department store at a perfume counter I don't know if we know if

do we know if Regina King's character works or what her job is I can't remember but um I don't remember either I don't know yeah everyone in the family has a you know working class job and there's often discussion of how they're struggling to pay for like the special investigators they need to hire they you know can barely afford this trip to Puerto Rico to talk to Victoria Rogers um Tish works throughout her pregnancy and I think we haven't talked about yet but that though I mean I would imagine this is mostly James Baldwin but the way it's translated to film is so beautiful and it's like ah everything is a perfect metaphor the way that Tish's job at a perfume counter and how people of different races feel entitled to her body in different ways

and it's just yeah but but just speaking to your point kaylee i mean she has to work throughout her pregnancy right yeah and and just that that statement of class and that and that lack of privilege to have to do labor to be able to to afford you know the case in this baby and that she has to keep pushing through. Yeah. So I thought all of that was handled well. And yeah, like you said, Jamie, the commentary on black bodies and the level of like respect and boundaries people have or do not have and how, you know, black bodies have historically been so exploited and objectified by white people um yeah that was a really effective like metaphor to introduce into the movie by way of um tish's job and then we have fanny who found something that he wanted to do this, like, you know, woodworking, this wood sculpturing, and having this creative pursuit, and that he's really good at it. And the commentary

around that, because she says that it saved him from the deaths that awaited the children of our age, that, you know, he found this like passion that he could really connect to and explore his art and i really liked that um but just yeah overall the character is constantly worrying about where they're going to find the money to pay for this defense that they shouldn't even have to be dealing with in the first place because he's been wrongfully accused because of a racist cop fucking with him it's frustrating but you know again the movie handles it very effectively yeah i agree and then the last thing i wanted to talk about was the romance between tish and fanny yeah and just that it's so sweet and beautiful and pure and you know we've talked about how black love is something that does not get depicted on screen very often

and again the way that it's just like this very supportive and pure love between these two characters. They were like childhood best friends. They both came of age. They realized that each other was very sexy. And they're like, well, we should probably do something about this. Wait, we turned out so sexy. We turned out so sexy. And we're already best friends. So we might as well kiss. We already talked about like the sex scenes on screen and how they're shot very tastefully and yeah i just i thought the romance between tish and fanny was handled very well and it made me believe in love just a little bit i know i was like huh i was like that romance thing might not suck huh and i also i i love that it's you're also, I love that you're able to, in this movie,

you're able to have, like, this boy next door thing amongst this movie. It's just so magical to me. And that it just kind of, like, slowly washes over you. And I feel like it washes over the viewer the way that it does them. And I just think that's really wonderful. It's lovely. It's really beautiful. And the way it's shot is just like so incredible and it feels like you're falling in love with them too it's really

nice the last thing i wanted to just mention really quick because i'm an adaptation head was the uh slight slight change in the ending of the movie versus the book which i was not aware of when i first saw the movie but when i was prepping for this episode so at the end of the book fanny is out on bail with his trial postponed indefinitely so it's almost like this. It's hopeful in that he's going to be able to spend time with his child and with Tish. But it's also like purgatory like because you don't know how long this situation is going to last. Barry Jenkins chose to end it on a less, I guess, less ambiguous note. I don't know. I just I don't really have a strong opinion on it either way i just thought it was interesting that that was one of his creative choices to adjust a little bit yeah it it makes the ending feel more bleak certainly it does yeah in the book's ending

but shit is bleak out there so i don't have a strong take on it i just wanted to mention that adaptation change um because i could see feeling a number of ways about it i think that the way that the movie ends i mean both are grounded in realism they're just kind of different different ways to slice it yeah i also hadn't read the book so when i I watched it, I was like, that makes sense. I was like, things are kind of bleak and kind of sad, and that makes sense. So, you know. It tracks. It would have been nice to see this Black narrative end on a more optimistic note, since a lot of Black stories don't. Yeah, I just found it interesting that Barry Jenkins made a choice to make it a little more depressing i was like okay but i i trust his judgment you

know of course so i'm just like you know one thing i also remember reading was that apparently that fanny's dad committed suicide in the book but not in the movie and so i was like so i guess it was like a trade-off interesting i did not see that wow it's like i guess it's like we can keep funny as dad but i guess we got it so i guess it was like a toss-up i guess we have to add in a bummer element somewhere else yeah that's i mean bummer is a major understatement obviously yeah i mean as we've said many times we're not known for our our book reading we don't read books on this here podcast. I do really want to read the book,

especially because I haven't read a James Baldwin novel. Shout out to James Baldwin, a prolific queer black writer. I did because I love movie watching so much. I did watch the documentary on him, I Am Not Your Negro, but I did watch the documentary on him. I am not your Negro, but yes, I have yet to read one of his books.

I had a great, I'll shout her out. I had a great English teacher in high school named Mrs. McLaren, who had us read notes of a native son, our freshman year of high school. And she, James Baldwin pilled us early nice it worked he's the best but i also want to read this book summer's here baby you gotta

download your audio books and and and go nut nut um does anyone else have anything to say about the film um everything yeah yeah i feel like um oh i guess my one last phrase of this great movie you're not gonna kind of bring down a little bit but to go back to the i guess to the treat or i it's not really down a bit to the treatment of victoria also what i loved because of thinking about the treatment of sexual assault with black men and non-black women and how black men have been falsely accused and how that just so could have gone left and kind of thinking about that history and treating it also in so much in his court in his defense that you have to automatically villainize her, but, but they still didn't. And keeping in mind that nuance,

I just thought that was another great point. Thinking about that history and that, but that you don't have to automatically still villainize her. That was really great. Absolutely. This movie is so beautiful. If you want to fall in love and cry, then watch it today because it is just fucking gorgeous.

And we also, I mean, this is the first Barry Jenkins movie we've covered, but we are also aware of the overwhelming number of Moonlight requests. We will be covering Moonlight. Don't you worry. It's Barry Jenkins here on the pod. Yeah.

This is very much beside the point but barry jenkins i feel like i know hot oh yeah well and also in love married to lulu wang director of the farewell amazing couple i love them they're so cute it's kind of startling what a good idea it is for them to be married it's just it just makes sense i know i remember where i was when i learned that i was like if you guys want to co-direct something i just feel like we would all be really grateful as a society culturally we need this i'm just like why not why not also i wanted to uh last shout out barry jenkins related also hot married and he released a series on i think amazon prime last year called the underground railroad that was so good and i felt like was really overlooked

i don't know a lot of people who have seen it i feel like amazon's horrible at promoting their own shows and fuck amazon but that show is incredible you should watch it i feel like amazon treats prime as it's kind of like this throwaway thing that you that you get when you buy their stuff and i'm like you have like shows and they're good just promote them like it's not hard the have like shows and they're good. Just promote them. Like, it's not hard. The content is good. They're already there. I was like, you gave Barry Jenkins a blank check. You're going to want to tell people about it.

You fools. The only show that any, like, I don't know, Amazon shows. The Boys. The Boys. I'm tired of hearing about The Boys. They love to promote The Boys. Look, I'm not going to watch The Boys. You can't make me but i highly highly

recommend the underground railroad yes um well really came down hard on the boys and channing tatum's furniture today just a real first of my data over there i was like are you okay what happened we're doing great what did the boys ever do to me i don't know i mean in general billy zane's in that show i don't know what i'm so upset about is he really yeah that changes things i think for just like an episode i'll watch that episode okay yeah i don't know what i'm so mad about i need need to take a nap. I'm sick. You have COVID, Jamie. Yeah. We need you to rest.

So let's draw this episode to a conclusion. Does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Oh, for sure. It does. A lot of the conversations between women, such as like Tish and her mom, Tish and her sister, the context is often about Fonny, but there are exchanges that do pass and also this is one of those movies where you know not handily passing the bechdel test is fine not every movie has to do that because it's doing so much else and it's saying so much else and this movie's doing it anyways so right and which i feel like speaks to

yeah again it's like the metric itself is not the live or die thing it's like this movie has a number of well-written well-thought-out characters of all genders who are talking to each other and it's that whole that whole level of discourse it was like oh my god shut up i was like i was like we're taking a cartoon trip a little too literally here maybe we all settle down maybe i'll go outside maybe we touch some grass you know yeah uh michael michelle thank you so much for returning to the show it is so lovely to have you back thank you for inviting me i love y'all y'all they're great i love the show i love movies thank you and all and all uh where can we find more of wait we didn't do the the nipple scale jamie jamie you're so sick i have covid 45

um so yes nipple scale zero to five nipples based on how the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens i would give this i would say like a 4.5 and the only thing i can think to dock it for would be the the domestic what felt like an unnecessary inclusion of domestic violence that is also not really i don't know why it was there really but other than that it's a nearly perfect movie it's yeah it's just a really beautiful story and as as barry jenkins said this movie rides that wavelength of like joyous highs and at the turn of a dime very real lows of being black in america and i think that this movie handles that maybe more effectively than any other movie i've seen i love the focus on this loving and supportive black family i love the focus on this loving and supportive black family i love the focus on this loving and

supportive relationship like romantic relationship between tish and fani all the the commentary on the judicial system policing real estate and the racism that's present there class commentary this movie is just accomplishing so much so efficiently and so beautifully and I'll give it 4.75 nipples I'll give one to Tish one to Tish's mom Sharon I will give one to Barry Jenkins I'll give one to James Baldwin. And I'll give my three quarters nipple to Ernestine, Tisha's sister. Love it. I'll meet you there. I agree that the one thing that bumped me was keeping domestic violence that felt like it could have been accomplished in a less triggering way

or if you're going to keep it then make sure you're commenting on it we already talked it through right but this movie is just so beautiful it couldn't make i mean barry jenkins adapting james baldwin is like what more could you ask for in a movie like and i i feel like his barry jenkins filmmaking like rises to the same quality of james baldwin's writing which is like ridiculous like that's how what it's not fair how talented people are sometimes you know it's sort of fucked up some of us have to be on podcasts you know and it doesn't feel good no um the but it's just like an unbelievable match between writer and director um and it works so well every character here is so well acted and and you know uh i mean caitlin to just echo what you're saying the number of issues that this movie addresses thoughtfully and seamlessly is just like kind of incredible in in a period piece too it is just incredible and and

also you just have you have women at the center of the story and also a lot of different kinds of women with different perspectives and but that is still generally a loving, supportive environment across the board. So I love this movie. Um, I'm going to give it 4.75, give one to Tish, give to one to Brian,

Tyree, Henry. I'll give one to Regina King, give one to Tiana Paris and then I'll give the.75 to Barry Jenkins. Love it. Michael Michelle. I would also give it a.475

also because like the slap you know like we said it didn't need to be there. But yeah I just I love this movie. I'll keep re-watching it because it just handles things well. And it also still makes me feel warm, although it's like about this really hard topic. But it's like that feeling of warmth, which is like amazing.

Yeah. And I just, everyone looks great. Shout out to Stefan James for looking like that. Extremely hot. Thank you for existing, sir. And it just handles so many things really well. I would give one to Tish, one to Sharon and Regina King

for being an icon and possibly the greatest child star of all time. I would give one to Barry Chang. And then also one to Conan Nichols, whose name I don't remember, but a great father figure. And then.75 to Barry Jenkins. Tish's father, you mean? Yes. Joseph.

Yes, one to Joseph for following in all these footsteps of Barry Jenkins' great father figures. Yes, absolutely. Thank you again, Michael Michelleelle for coming back and chatting about this movie with us where can people follow you check out your writing etc yeah so i am on twitter at michael mich no that's wrong i'm on instagram that's what i was like i have social media and i know what they're called um I am Michael Michelle with three E's. So M-I-C-H-A-E-L, M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E with three E's at the end on Instagram. I'm Femmes and Films on Twitter because I care about women in movies.

And you can see me in Harper's Bazaar and Awards Watch and Teen Vogue. And I'm doing some really cool cover stories i can't talk about yet but they're really fun um i did some cool work with awards watch for some emmy nominees recently that'll be out soon um i'm still paying a university thousand dollars each year in hopes of one day get a good degree so So I'm still doing that. I'm making a short film. And yeah. Hell yeah. That's incredible.

Yeah. You can find us on all the regular places. Instagram, Twitter, at Bechdelcast. You can sign up for our Patreon, aka Matreon, at patreon.com slash Bechdelcast. Five bucks a month. We'll get you two bonus episodes with over a hundred in the backlog are you running out of main feed well not anymore scoot on over to the matri not anymore

okay and sorry I have covered 19. um okay uh and you can check out our merch over at tpublic.com slash the Bechtel cast. Indeed, you can. And with that, should we all take a stroll down Beale Street? Let's do it. Together. Holding hands. Yeah, that sounds fun. You know, as the score swells and there's like a yellow shinter on us.

Yes. Oh, and the leaves. It seems like there was always fall foliage. Yes. It was very autumnal vibes. Oh, so nice. Love it. Okay, bye-bye.

Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. MTV's official challenge podcast is back for another season. That's right. The challenge is about to embark on its monumental 40th season, y'all. And we are coming along for the ride. Woohoo! That would be me, Devon Simone.

And then there's me, Davon Rogers. And we're here to take you behind the scenes of the Challenge 40, Battle of the Eras. Join us as we break down each episode, interview challengers, and take you behind the scenes of this iconic season. Listen to MTV's official challenge podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

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