The Bechdel Cast - Independence Day with Lindsay Ellis

Episode Date: July 4, 2019

After a patriarchal invasion, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Lindsay Ellis launch a counter-attack by discussing the representation of women in Independence Day. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @thelindsayellis on Twitter.  While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you feel

about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, or wherever you get your podcasts. even need it's right here in black and white and prints it's bigger than a flag or mascot listen to rebel spirit on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hello hi it's us it's us you're about to hear an episode on independence day with lindsey ellis the one the only but first a few plugs oh yes uh we have a few shows coming up in multiple countries multiple continents first we have our last la show for a while at the ruby on july 13th we're covering anastasia for my birthday i'll be cosplaying as rasputin of course um that's on july 13th go to bechtelcast.com click on live for tickets there i'm

also doing my show one more time on july 20th at the lyric hyperion boss who miss girl if you want to check that out before we leave the country to go to dot dot dot london and edinburgh so yeah you're doing your show boss who miss girl july 27 July 27th and July 28th at the Bill Murray. Tickets are already running low. That's in London. That's in London. It's the show I'm taking to Edinburgh, Fringe Fest, called Boss Whom is Girl. It is a skewering satire of corporate feminism in the vein of Sheryl Sandberg, Elizabeth Holmes, etc.

Fun. It's a fun show. It is very fun. I've seen it many times. Two. And I'm going to see it more when we are both in Edinburgh. Yeah. I'll then be doing the show every single night at Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the Pleasance Baby Grand from July 31st to August 26th.

Tickets for that are also on the Bechtelcast website or on my website. I will be selling tickets at any cost. And then, after that run ends, we will be going to London for two, an evening of two live Bechdelcasts. Exciting. I'm really excited.

It's our first international performance. Sorry, Canada. So, we'll come, we'll be there soon, Canada. Don't you worry. But first, we'll be there soon canada don't you worry but first we'll be in london on september 1st yes two back-to-back shows that evening we are covering pixar's brave and the favorite so hopefully that's appropriate when you'll enjoy it we know that brave does not take place in london but we've already done Paddington. And we're pretty sure that's the only... Listen, we're not covering the King's Speech.

You don't want to hear it. We don't want to do it. So we'll be at the Albany. Tickets are officially on sale. They can be found at Bechtelcast.com in the live tab. And we hope to see you there. And then don't forget, I'm doing a couple stand-up shows in edinburgh as well in late august i'm doing some in london and i'm doing some in dublin as well so if you live in those parts

please check me out all my stuff will be on my website caitlandrante.com love it so without much further ado happy happy Independence Day episode. Yes. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Good morning. the bechdel cast good morning in less than an hour and a half uh-huh we will have finished talking about the movie independence day oh no uh and many from around the world will have listened

to it and we can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. Caitlin, you're such an inspiring leader. Really, this is why you keep getting reelected. We will be fighting for our freedom from the patriarchy. Should we win? Today will no longer be considered an american holiday but a day that we were declared in one voice i'm like in the crowd high on meth ready to tear my shirt off at any moment oh so you're randy quaid yes um we will not go quietly into the night we will not vanish without a fight we're going to live on we're going to survive this is really today we celebrate

the becto cast welcome to it oh gosh i did i so many twists and turns i really nominate this one for for something anything thank you you told me i could do the intro and and that's what i thought would be the best choice. I was just going to be like, I got dental surgery. My mouth hurts. Mine does too. I know. It's kind of fun.

I feel like that's our version of a glow up is that we are getting our serious dental problems taken care of. You know, three years of work and we're finally able to see a dentist. Mine, to be fair, mine is a Groupon dentist. Sure. But she was very nice and she did all the procedures at once and I feel like my skull is on fire. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. No, it's good. Anyway, it's a healthy good. I'm Caitlin Durante. I'm Jamie Loftus. And we talk about movies. With our perfect teeth. With our now perfect teeth. So this episode will be flawless.

Yes. It's not like Bruckheimer flawless. We don't have veneers, gigantic veneers protruding three inches out of our head. We examine movies through the lens of how they treat and represent women. We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. And that, of course, is... The metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel that is a test applied to media. For our purposes, it means that there has to be a scene in a movie that has two female identifying characters with names who talk about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue.

Doesn't sound hard, but... i'm assuming this isn't your first episode if it is you know you can find that in a different episode yes so today we're talking about independence day yeah and today the day this episode comes out is also independence the actual The actual day? Yeah. Oh, amazing. Yes. Wow. We're recording it, perhaps not on Independence Day. Celebrating Independence Day is like weird now. Yeah. Yeah. There's like some people that I don't, I don't even remember what I did. I think I was with you last year. But there were some people who were like being real irony bros about it. And like, well, I hate that worse than celebrating it sincerely I don't know what a strange time to be alive it certainly is yeah and uh hey let's

introduce our guest yes I'm so excited she's a video essayist she's an author and you remember her from our Phantom of the Opera episode passions were flared oh my goodness it's Lindsay Ellis hey thank you for having me to talk about the best movie yeah and all of the history a cinematic masterpiece might be the best piece of art i mean yes it is it's a feminist text it's a piece of art it's a scholarly text yeah so we are talking about independence day lind, what is your history relationship with this movie? That's a good question. I feel like it's very baked into the fabric of my DNA.

It just fused with me the moment it came out. And we've been one ever since. When you mention the author part, when my book comes out next year, you're going to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, that tracks I just it was kind of one of those movies of the 90s where like because for the most part I don't really experience nostalgia I'm actually a deeply cynical person but I think like Independence Day is just like where every piece of nostalgia of my brain is funneled because it's such a deeply stupid movie.

But I also feel like Independence Day raises a very interesting philosophical question, which is can a stupid movie be good? I think we're going to talk about that today. Certainly. Yeah. I think yes. Jamie, what's your history? I don't have a ton of history with this movie.

I do remember that for some reason it was the, our first DVDs in my home were this and Holes. Okay. This was for a very long time, the only two DVDs I had. I loved Holes and my parents loved Independence Day and that was simply the way it was. Okay. And those were the two DVDs. So I have seen, I had seen this movie,

I hadn't seen it in like years, but in my head I'm like, oh, that's what my mom and dad would watch right after I finished watching Holes. They're like, it's our turn with the DVD player, Jamie. Yeah, it's just a really, a lot of draconian battles over the DVD player. So yeah, this is for me mostly the movie

that would come on after Holes. Got it. What about you? This came out when I was 10 and I believe I saw it in a drive-in movie theater at age 10. And then I did not watch it again after that ever. Did you like it? Do you remember liking it? I remember liking it, but then Men in Black came out the next year and I was like, I like this Will Smith alien movie way better than Independence Day so Men in Black was my shit. I think Men in Black was my Will Smith entry point. That was probably the

first time I'd ever like seen him. Independence Day was definitely my Will Smith gateway drug but Men in Black Will Smith was like my Will Smith heroin. Like that was the one I really developed a problem for. It was sort of that one-two punch, which is funny because Will Smith would talk about

how he didn't want to be known as the alien guy, but arguably his two most influential movies are very different takes on conspiracy theory Americana. And it's funny because neither of these films can decide if the deep state is bad or not. They're like, well, the deep state's there. It's doing its best. It's too vague.

Yeah. They're trying. Slap some cute faces on the deep state. See what we feel about it. They got Brent Spiner. Yeah. He's real excited about the lights. Brent Spiner, who I was like, oh, my God, it's the villain from The Master of Disguise.

Oh, really? Yes. Well, that is a deep cut. He is Data on Star Trek, which is how I think most people know him. Who is that? Did not know that. Beloved Broadway actor, Brent Spiner. Good, good, good.

I love a character actor. I did see Independence Day. Is it Resurgence or whatever the sequel from 2016? Yeah, I saw that in theaters. I have a different love for that one because it's so ambitious and like just so out of time. Because I did a video about this, which I'm sure we're going to kind of at least touch on, which is how like Independence Day is a movie that could only exist in the 90s. And then we have the sequel that just does not make any sense in like a post 9-11 Alex Jones world. And so the movie they made was just like, well, I guess we're going to invade them.

Right. Isn't for the new one, it's basically everyone is back except for Will Smith. Yeah. Like most people. Except for they recast the president's daughter, which is kind of bewildering because. Mae Whitman. Yeah, Mae Whitman is an actual star.

Working with an actor. And they recast her with a hot nobody. Her. Yeah. Her? Yeah, Roland Emmerich went her

and then recast her. Okay, I'll just jump into the recap and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's roll. This movie is also famously two and a half hours long. It is. It is so long.

That's nothing compared to the norm today. That's true. I mean, but for a first movie, I don't know. That's like a short Marvel movie. Very long. That's true. Yeah. So it's July 2nd.

Act one. Yes, act one. They tell you exactly where the act breaks are in this movie. Kind of a master class in that way. I should teach a class on this movie. You should. Screenwriting with Roland. So an extraterrestrial radio signal comes in and everyone's freaking out. Jeff Goldblum is there. He's a science guy.

Still not entirely sure what his specific job is. Well, he's a science guy in a lot of ways. He's a cable repairman. He's a cable repairman. That's his dad joke. Yeah. And that's, yeah, I think that's not quite accurate. I think he's a technician at a cable company.

Got it. Only to become a hacker later on. Yeah. Well, I mean, it makes sense. He knows the fiber. It's true. He's got a Mac. They use the same OS.

Oh, I love the vague techno jargon used in this movie. He's like, I put a virus into the aliens and they're screwed. And everyone's like, oh, my God. Another thing that only works in 96. Yeah, yeah. People will see the movie Hackers and they're like, sure. Hackers, my favorite part of hackers is that a lot of the cast is wearing crew neck sweatshirts that say vcr on it like it's just

like i just love the like green ones and zeros that like oh yeah they're like this is technology fade out as they like coding use their consciousness with the computer because that's how hacking yeah yeah absolutely how it works okay so um randy quaid is drunk he's dusting crops it's tuesday yep um then we meet really playing the time then we meet the president of the united states uh played by bill pullman it's president thomas whitmore and no one's taking him seriously because they think he's too young and that he's a wimp. Oh, my gosh. I love that his central issue is like, I'm too hot. No one will take me seriously. There is a lore behind that.

Like, apparently, like, in earlier scripts, it was like, there was, like, a whole thing about how he tried to introduce universal health care. Because it was like, they're very obviously, yeah, yeah. They're very obviously, like, if you go into the independence day wiki which i never have uh like there's like a whole backstory about how like he tried to introduce universal health care and it failed and then the republicans regained control of congress and that's why his approval ratings have crashed interesting whoa i mean that would be less dumb than i'm too hot. I'm just too charismatic. They couldn't fit that backstory in. So they're just like, he's just too.

It's not even in the director's cut. Too many alien punches to fit in. There's only so much time. Exactly. So he's too hot to be president. So he's too hot. And then his press secretary, Connie, is relaying a lot of this information to him. She's just like, no one thinks you're cool.

Then it turns out the signal that's coming in is from this enormous alien mothership that's approaching Earth. And then several huge spacecrafts break off from the mothership and then like head towards Moscow, New York City, D.C., some other major cities around the world. I mean, they just like hover over those cities for a while. They're just hanging out. The president's like, I don't care. I'm staying in D.C., some other major cities around the world. I mean, they just like hover over those cities for a while. They're just hanging out. The president's like, I don't care. I'm staying in D.C., okay?

It's like they're ominously hovering over like all these major cities. It's probably fine. And then canonically, this movie is taking place in 1996, right? Yes. So it is also a few months before the election, right? Right. Oh, yeah. I've never thought about that.

I've thought a lot about this movie and I never thought. No one mentions if there's an election coming up. So if you're a hot president and people are already like, he's too hot, I was like, oh, they would say pretty boy ran away from conflict. Hot man must be strong. Yeah. I'm up for re-election, Connie. I got to stand my ground. I got to be sexy and here so then we finally meet will smith the genie himself we finally meet his character which is

steve hiller 20 minutes into the movie they really make you wait they make you wait he is military he has to report to his base to deal with these alien spaceships he thinks there's no danger but his girlfriend jasmine is like i don't feel good about this there is something about seeing vivica a fox in a one floor house that made me want it to be the beginning of kill bill yeah right she's had better scenes in one floor house indeed so back in new york je Goldblum, he figures out that the signal that they received was actually a countdown that all the spaceships are using and then when they get

to zero, they're going to attack. So he and his dad, played by John Kirsch. They only attack planets with satellites. It's like, who the satellite system already installed? I love an arbitrary countdown in a movie. It's like stealing your neighbor's Wi-Fi. That's an arbitrary countdown in a movie. It's exciting. Figured it out.

It's like when you steal your neighbor's Wi-Fi. That's just what these aliens are doing with the satellites. That's why they went for the inhabited planet. Because they needed their satellite. It's like their version of like, it's only three days until the talent show. So then Jeff Goldblum's character, his name is david and his dad played by judd hirsch they drive to dc to tell the president but before like really anything can be done about this countdown news the aliens start blowing shit up including the iconic white house explosion scene yes um so

then the president and his staff they get to safety and then jasmine and her son dylan get to safety but a bunch of other people die now we're in july 3rd aka act two will smith and his marine buds go in for a counter attack against the aliens but the alien ship has this force field and they're fighting back and their own little like fighter ships and will smith is the only survivor of the marines in this counter-attack so he goes over right he goes over to an alien ship that he took down and then punches an alien in the face welcome to earth and then he starts dragging this alien back to his base. Meanwhile, in the L.A. area, Jasmine finds the First Lady in some rubble. Yeah.

Hillary Clinton herself in a pile of dirt. Red-headed Hillary. That actor plays the president in Battlestar Galactica. So she goes from first lady to president. Wow. Level up. The thing that didn't happen in real life. The thing that did not happen to Hillary Clinton. That's unrealistic. I mean, at least Hillary Clinton doesn't

die of internal bleeding. So there's that. Yet. She's still got time. Aliens might arrive tomorrow. She might be in a helicopter. Yes. So then Randy Qu tomorrow. She might be in a helicopter. So then Randy Quaid, who is again in this movie for some reason. And also is so important.

He only becomes more important as the movie continues. Which is wild. But he is with his kids somewhere outside of LA. They're in a desert. He keeps talking about how aliens had abducted him 10 years ago. This is really very Randy Quaid. And Randy Quaid may not have even known it at this time. Yeah, I don't think Randy Quaid knew this was fiction.

I think he thought he was making a documentary. And he was just testifying. Personal experience. Every line of his is improvised. There was a lot more. I think the director's cut in the script. There was a lot more rape jokes. Oh no. Of like, oh, did the aliens rape you, Russ? Boy, you sure did get raped by those aliens.

There was already so much of that. Yeah, there's already quite a bit. Yeah, there's these guys who are bullying him. And they're like laughing about it. Did they do sexual stuff to you? What an odd place to go. So Randy Quaid picks up Will Smith and the alien that he's dragging around and who he had punched in the face. He picks him up in the desert.

And then the president and his friends are taken to Area 51 because there's an alien research facility there. And that's also where Will Smith and Randy Quaid go. And then the scientists at Area 51 start to dissect Will Smith's alien. But it's still alive. An alien less vaginal than your average movie alien. Still pretty vaginal. Not un-vaginal. They slice it open and then it falls open

into these flaps. It gives a big flap. There's a scalpulin. I feel like it's somewhere in the middle of from not vaginal at all to, like, which one is, like, Stranger Things season one, like, erupting pussy monster. Sure. And then, which I'm going to confuse it, alien or aliens. One of them has, or maybe both have.

The pods? Like the facehuggers? Yeah. The facehuggers are pretty vaggie. Yeah. So, yeah. the pods like the facehuggers that flip up the facehuggers are pretty vaggie yeah so yeah so this semi-vagina

alien it's still alive we'll release our rankings at a later time yeah we should go to the Wikipedia page for like

vaginal inspired alien design there's a video oh that'll be my one for July yeah some of them get

really like goopy too and then you're like this has gone too far like you have not seen though i think it's the second pirates of the caribbean movie but the kraken shows up and that is like a vagina monster to end all vagina well it just makes me wonder about like alien metabolism that they are always covered in goo like even like the independence day aliens they are always kind of have that low-level sheen going on. And it's just like, maybe they're just sweating.

Maybe they're very sweaty. They are in the desert. They kind of look like Glossier models. They just look kind of wet. It's not quite scaly. It's moist. There's a moisture going on. Just need a towel off. Yeah, definitely.

So this alien uses its telepathic abilities to communicate through this guy, Dr. Oaken, which is Brent Spiner's character. And the president's like, hey, why don't we just try to coexist peacefully? And the alien's like, no. I want you to die!

That's my favorite scene where he's like, can we find a way to coexist? And then the alien just goes, no. No. And then they're kind of like, well, it was worth asking. He's like, hey, hey, I tried. And then he doesn't even go, why? Yeah.

He's just like, okay, he said no. Okay. Some real diplomacy 101. Yeah. President hottie. So yeah, then Jeff Goldblum is like, no, we can't use nuclear weapons against them. This is a horrible idea. And he's right. They try. It doesn't work because the shields are still up on the alien spaceship. So then Will Smith borrows a helicopter and somehow knows exactly where to go to find

well he went to el toro but why would he think because they agreed to meet there oh did they okay yeah because like whenever he leaves he's like come to me at the base after you go stripping right and she's like okay and so that's where she's trying to get the whole movie is trying to get to the base and then when she gets gets there, it's been destroyed by the alien pod fighters. Got it, got it, got it. The TIE fighters. So they meet up and they're like, oh my God. There's a great kiss.

There's a kiss. It's backlit. It's beautiful. The president is reunited with his wife, but she's bleeding eternally and then she dies. Oops. It is now July 4th, Act 3, baby. Everyone's at their lowest point it looks hopeless yes those alien shields are pretty they're gonna come down those are impenetrable you guys what are we gonna do we arbitrarily killed one of the women we're all in a low exactly the the music swelled it was

very emotional it was yeah and then jeffblum, he's thrown a fit. And his dad's like, hey, get off this freezing floor before you catch a cold. And Jeff Goldblum's like, that's it. We have to give the alien ship a computer virus. And then zeros and ones begin to rain into the screen like a screensaver. Well, I mean, my favorite part of this scene is he is drunk. Like he is lit when he comes up with the computer virus idea. And I like to like my headcanon of this scene because like the whole thing like happens

over the course of like four hours. So you don't sober up after four hours. Right. So like he comes up with this idea while he's wasted. He pitches it while he's still drunk he's still drunk when he gets in the craft with will smith and it's only that whenever he goes oh what was i thinking that he has sobered up sure my head cannon and he's like about to throw up and it's like sure he gets like air sickness but it's also because he's like he's

been drinking a lot the whole movie. So then they figure out that they're going to fly this small alien ship that they have into space to the mothership and infect it with the virus, which will cause all the shields to retract. And then Will Smith is like, I'll do it. They organize the attack. They gather up all the pilots they can, including Randy Quaid, by just asking like,

hey, does anyone here know how to fly? And he's like, I'm... And then he's like... Oh, but the best part of that scene is the contrivance for why they have enough planes but not enough pilots. Because there's like a newscast where they're like, yeah, a bunch of military people

are hiding in the mountains because they're scared. I missed that. Yeah, that bunch of military people are hiding in the mountains because they're scared. I missed that. Yeah, that's the explanation. It's like our brave troops are actually quite cowardly when push comes to shove. Anyways, we'll deal with them later. Honestly, most of the third act, the logic behind every decision was very cryptic to me well that's why i'm here yeah i'm here to explain because like it's one of those really pedantic movies where every time

you're like but why did thing it's like ah there was a throwaway line there was a throwaway line because i was like because as i was watching it and and you know i mean it's like you barely have to like i'm i'm glad that you're able to follow if you're really paying attention, but you barely have to be able to follow. You're just like, it's going to happen. So someone's going to fly into the spaceship and then someone's going to kiss and then it's over. Yeah. It's going to be great. The two things that need to happen in this movie.

Yeah. And alien corpse parts will fall from the sky and the music will swell. And Bill Pullman's on the ground, like, seemingly forgetting that his wife died less than 24 hours ago. He's feeling pretty good. He's got his cigar. So many people die, and then the people who should react to that do not react to that. Yeah, like, the next day, the first scene of Act 2, July 3rd, is, like, Will Smith and friends, like, getting cigars and, like, woo, ready to whoop E.T.'s ass. And it's like,

Jasmine is presumed dead. Yeah. As is pretty much the entire population of LA County. I assume you have family, sir. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

No one cares. And then when Randy Quaid dies, his, his son is just like, I'm so proud of him. Yeah. It's like, are you crying? Like,

why not? I mean, that was a complicated relationship between father and son. Yeah, because, like, most of the director's cut is, like, extension of the Randy Quaid plot. And it's, like, convoluted. Well, because, like, he, like, the son is actually his stepson because Randy Quaid married his mother. So the brother is actually a half-brother. But I think the oldest is just, like, the only stepson.

And the mother died at some point. I'm pretty sure she's Native American. And oldest is just, like, the only stepson. Okay. The mother died at some point. I'm pretty sure she's Native American. And so that's, like, a whole thing. What a strange amount of detail to apply to that character. And so they, and then, like, the middle child is, has, like, a medical condition, and they spend, like, a long time trying to find meds for this kid. Yeah. And it just is so agonizingly long.

A lot of that stays, I mean, like, Sick Kid is still there. He does puke. He does puke. He's definitely sick. I'm like, I don't, are we, who is he? Like, whenever those kids, I know that they're like Randy Quaid's, it's just weird how much this movie is just like, people love Randy Quaid and they're going to root for him no matter what.

The focus groups say more Quaid. And yet there's no time to develop any of the female characters wild you don't want to die a virgin right oh god i can't wait to talk about that so then bill pullman gives his famous speech will smith and jeff coblom fly off into space they go they upload the virus to the mothership also they're friends now. They're best friends. The pilots fire at will at the spacecrafts on Earth. Randy Quaid sacrifices himself to save everyone.

And then the boys come back from space and they get some kisses. The lady folks run into their arms and they are some kissing. Beautiful, beautiful salt flat. Yes. And then that is the movie.

We've got to take a quick break, but we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Hey everyone, this is Jimmy O'Brien from John Boy Media. I want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday, and for about 30 minutes, I dive into three topics in Major League Baseball that I am interested in. Breaking stories, trends, stats, weird stuff.

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Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three Things on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You could also find it on the Talkin' Baseball YouTube channel and new episodes drop every Tuesday. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman

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now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, man. Okay. Where to begin?

Well, so, Lindsay, you did a video essay on Independence Day versus War of the Worlds. And we're kind of just interested on your take on how this movie, Independence Day, can kind of only exist in the time frame that it came out in. And just give us a recap, so to speak, of your video, if you wouldn't mind. Well, it's interesting because to jump onto another 90s classic, The Matrix, I remember when that movie came out and part of the whole premise of The Matrix is that 1997 was the peak of human civilization before it started declining and I remember at the time thinking that's ridiculous and in hindsight I'm like oh I think there might have been something to that because the 90s was a weird kind of uniquely stable time in world history and I feel like when I put that out people are like oh but this thing

but this other thing is like well well, in the grand scheme. Right. You know, like it was between the Berlin Wall Goes Down and 9-11. And so a result is that the media is kind of bored and really drawn to disaster. And so Independence Day kind of fits in like sort of a Venn diagram of like fascination with aliens that was very or rather specifically like aliens and like American conspiracy theory. Like the three biggest examples of that being The X-Files, Independence Day and Men in Black. And it also kind of falls under disaster movies, which neither X-Files or Men in Black are. So it's like two of the biggest genres,

dated genres of the 90s. And both of those things died when 9-11 happened because suddenly conspiracy theories weren't so cute and fun anymore and also nobody wanted to watch disaster movies. It's kind of interesting now and how it's like swung way the other way. Like all the disasters you see on movies and I guess now on television, Game of Thrones, are like they love.

Boy, they love their 9-11-y imagery. So I think it just it takes an approach that audiences were, of course, totally down with at the time because it didn't really take this idea of international disaster seriously it's such a fun movie like you said everyone kind of reacts to this horrible disaster with like ready to kick the tires and light the fires big daddy harry connick jr drives me fucking crazy in this movie. Does he crazy with love? Crazy with desire? That was supposed to be Matthew Perry originally. Whoa. I didn't know that. He was cast and then, I don't know.

He's like, I gotta go be in Friends some more. I gotta go be worst character on Friend. Instead of the worst character in Independence. Matthew Perry is almost always the worst part. And I like him, but he's the worst part of 17 again. He's the worst part of a lot of stuff. Yeah. And that's why we love him.

He's the worst part of the movies that star him. Yeah. Like the whole nine yards. Woof. He was on that show that was called Go On, but it was stylized so it looked like the name of the show was Goon. And then it got canceled after three episodes. That's one of my favorite Matthew Perry failures.

Oh, sure. Sure, sure, sure. That's a whole other podcast. So I think, so there's a... Matthew Perry failures. It's a horror show about... Super producer Sophie is cracking up on this episode. She likes the Matthew Perry shade. Perry's pitfalls.

Anyway, Lindsay, go on. So when we do a sociological study of the... Yeah, so there's an interesting sort of trend going on right now that is kind of in its twilight. But this is true of like any 20-year cycle because, you know, it's like you'll have 20-year cycles that appeal to certain age groups and 30 year cycles that appeal to others so that's why there's like an interesting sort of like parallel right now with 90s nostalgia and remakes and 80s nostalgia and aesthetic like i think the two biggest for 80s nostalgia right now are it the the it franchise and stranger things um but with 90s nostalgia it'll be like remakes or reboots of 90s things. And boy, do the ones like Men in Black International is coming out or came out already. That was a movie that happened.

And we loved it. We sure did see it. And Independence Day Resurgent came out in 2016. And the X-Files reboot was also a thing that happened but i i wish we could talk about men in black international and how it did if we had the time oh shoot we just simply don't it's interesting that like you know independence day resurgence it was too different from the old one because it couldn't piggyback off of the you know conspiracy theory Americana that it was written around. And X-Files didn't know what to do with the way conspiracy theories are now part of the culture and how, you know, and both movies are extremely naive, I would honestly say,

borderline irresponsible, especially the X-Files. Because Roland Emmerich has this really interesting preoccupation with conspiracy theory. Because I genuinely think he doesn't believe it. But I don't think he understands that a lot of people do. So, yeah, it's interesting sort of like as a study, like an anthropological case study of a time in history that, you know, is just, we can't ever go back. Yeah. in history that uh you know is just we can't ever go back yeah i mean a lot of the movies we cover on the podcast we you know talk about how they are very much a product of the time that they come out in because you know they will be just ripe with homophobia sexism all all manner of

problematic things that you know we in 2019 are like oh my god how was that ever okay and not that it ever was but you know culturally we were in a different space 10 years ago 20 years ago of on and on yeah but yes this is this movie is kind of a a product of its time in a different way than we normally discuss but there are still some things as plenty to talk i mean it is like it's weird like it was like genuinely jarring as much as i enjoyed this movie but it's like a little bit jarring in some way to see a disaster movie with such like an optimistic tilt like you don't really ever like there are moments but you don't really ever see anyone on earth consider that they will lose well i mean that's such part of this American-ness

because it's an American story filtered through the lens of a German who was raised very wealthy. So he is the essence of privilege, which is interesting because Roland Emmerich was at the time pretty much the only out gay director like brian singer wasn't out yet and plus he wasn't really famous yet because uh you know his usual suspects had just come out uh double check that um but it's it's like going through that

filter is very interesting because i don't i don't i don't know if an american would be shameless enough to make a movie like this but But Americans really reacted to it positively. In a way that Roland was never able to recapture that level of success, even though he's basically been grandfathered into, you can make whatever movie you want until now. I think he's finally lost that. But it is the perfect moment of just like USA, USA. There's so many moments here that I feel like you could show that same clip and put it in a movie from 2019.

And it would be like a jokey thing or a sinister thing. Yeah. To see someone like a group of mostly white dudes going like USA, USA. That's scary to people now. Right. 1996. They're like, no, this is like the peak of the movie. Or it would be a very different, for a different crowd.

Like I could see a really conservative tilting movie do that. But I think like this movie, because like, you know, Roland is liberal, Hollywood liberal. But like, I think that this movie is made for Democrats. Let's put it that way. It's a movie for Democrats. Yeah, they got the Clintons in office, basically. They don't like him because he's too hot.

He's too cool. He plays his saxophone too much. He was on Arsenio Hall too many times. I mean, but this movie was $75 million budget, $817 million box office.

Ooh, baby. Because it's great. Yeah, it was very successful. It was the number, I think it was the number one movie of the year it came out. Of the year? It was one or two.

Doesn't surprise me. Also, just a stray observation about disaster movies. Before 9-11, they're orange. After 9-11, they're blue. Yeah, they're very gray. Yeah. Because again,

like with Game of Thrones as an example, where we got like 20 9-11, they're blue. Yeah, they're very gray. Yeah. Because again, like with Game of Thrones as an example, where we got like 20 9-11s, that color palette never let up until the threat was stabbed. It's exhausting, yeah. But yeah, it's just like, I think there is something

about just like this oppressive blue palette, like this sort of blue-gray that before 9-11 was mostly associated with like, you know, Holocaust movies. Oh, sure. And even after 9-11, like there was something just like this very like Russian work camp

prisoner of war. Like we saw that in the, like the pianist had a very blue color palette. Even the beginning of X-Men. The first X-Men movie. But it's just like, it's the blue plus the haze, you know. There's so many examples. Like Avengers 1, Man of Steel. A lot of Marvel movies. Game of Thrones.

Endgame kind of did it. Endgame was kind of purple. Yeah. I kind of liked that. It was like a purple haze. Thanos was there and he's very purple. He just reverberated. Okay, so let's talk about the women in the movie, shall we?

Yeah, so many His Wives. This is a huge His Wives movie. Speaking of product of its time, I think that's another thing that people just didn't really bat an eye at, which is there's no women in leadership positions. There's, like, none of them contribute anything valuable to the plot. None of them come up with any idea. I guess the closest is Vivica A. Fox taking the initiative to drive a truck and save the First Lady who dies anyway.

And, you know, that's just something that you would never see in like i think even in 2005 with war of the worlds it felt a little off that there that the girl child was just so helpless and never uh like grew or learned anything like even even then it felt a little like i was surprised there weren't even like any like mary sue moments in this movie i'm like oh someone's someone's going to be able to do... Because you are presented with two female characters that have the illusion of power. You've got the First Lady, who is this Hillary Clinton cipher. So it's like, okay, maybe she might be doing something.

No. Then we have... What's her name? The character's name is Connie. Connie, who's the press secretary the press secretary and it seems like oh she's in a position of power perhaps she will impact the plot at some point but then the twist is she's jeff goldblum's wife yes yes exactly because he wants to win her back yeah she wanted to be a career girl and he was like but i want love and then in the end she

realizes actually she think he wants love, too. She's like, I was lying. I definitely want to talk about that conversation they have. But yeah, so we meet three main female characters in this story. And they are all introduced in the context of them being the romantic partner of one of the important male characters. Right. We don't know that Connie is a romantic partner until about a half hour in.

Right. Because then we can all breathe a sigh of relief. Don't worry, boys. She's not a single woman over 30. Thank God we were so worried. Yes. So they all end up being just there to basically further characterize the male characters

who they are romantically linked to in some way yeah right because i was like oh connie okay well i didn't even first i didn't i don't think they name what her job is so they do pretty early do they okay yeah i mean it's another one of those like there is a lot of dialogue and a lot of quick quick exchanges yeah it's very blink and you'll miss it someone yeah someone does say like very expositionally, like you're the press secretary. This is your job. Okay, we know her job.

We see that she's a woman in politics. She seems important, right, like you said. She has the respect of hot president. They have that fun exchange about how he's hot. We can't say it enough. But then as soon as we find out that she is the ex-wife of Jeff Goldblum's character, she does nothing in the story except for hold his hand and look longingly at him sometimes. They realize the meaning of love.

They realize that the world is burning, and they should have valued each other. But now they have this second chance because they didn't explode in a ball of fire. I don't know if I'm more frustrated by Connie or by the First Lady because both of them are just like, you start out with like, you know, at least the feeling of like, oh, there's some potential here. They could do something. Right. And then it's just the male characters in their lives just slowly sap them of their agency until they either die or retire. Well, there's no government anymore. they don't need a press secretary that's true they blew up the white house where is there to do government at nowhere start a jewelry company she's gonna start her etsy store and

and she and jeff cold bloom will i don't know build a cable company together so then pretty early on will smith's character and his girlfriend jasmine are separated physically uh and we cut away to jasmine more than i thought we would i figured like we would just kind of forget about her she wouldn't be a character oh yeah yeah because it's like uh to give this movie some like small ribbons you know roland likes to i don't know if he's overstating it, but like he would talk about how he had to fight the studio to get Will Smith cast because, you know, Captain Hiller is probably, you know, the closest thing to a main character. Right. And like they really didn't like the idea of a black lead. I'm not surprised. Because it was unbankable. And especially combining that with the fact that, you know, Jasmine probably has more screen time than even Connie. So she probably has, like...

I think so. She's, like, the most fleshed out female character in the movie, pretty much. She probably has the most screen time of all the women. So, you know, and it's just like, well, for a woman of color to get a big-ish part in, like, you know, the biggest movie of the year, it's like, okay. You're a gold star. You're one. Yeah. Yay.

Good job. You're one. Hoo-hoo. And then one of the other main characters is identifiably Jewish, and that I feel like is a pretty rare thing. He's not stereotypical at all. I look like a schluehl. I mean, yeah, Judd Hirsch.

Judd Hirsch, good sport. I'm talking about Jeff Goldblum. But representation wins. Yes. Independence Day representation wins. I mean, again, there's sort of like the iffy optics of a German man writing this character. And it's like, sir, sir. Where do you stand?

Okay. Getting back to Jasmine, she is like is like i mean she's my favorite female character mostly because we knew more about her and we saw her more than any other female character we find out that uh she's a stripper so we find out what her job is uh again it's like kind of weird optics on that too where i feel like you know like we get these two rich white ladies in these fancy white lady jobs and then the only woman of color is a stripper so the optics there are and we contrived a way to get her in her like stripper outfit her like las vegas showgirl stripper outfit i was like what is this club i've never been to yeah it's like that's like a samba

outfit she even explains how like that is just sort of forced into the movie she was like, what is this club? I've never been to a club like this. Yeah, it's like, that's like a samba outfit. She even explains how, like, that is just sort of forced into the movie. She was like, I just showed up to work to get my paycheck, and they made me work. I just came to get my paycheck. And, like, it's just like, yeah. So it's like, oh, so we had to see this, like, gratuitous. Who is coming into the strip club on the day of the alien invasion? Right. Like, why is anyone at work?

And then whenever, like, Mario, who's the guy who owns the club mario's still yelling at her she also did bring her child and her dog to the strip club but she couldn't get a sitter yeah uh that said okay so even though the optics on that are like funky and questionable at least they do not you know like the they don't use it as an excuse to degrade her she like advocates for herself when Hillary Clinton's like oh I'm sorry you're a sex worker and she's like no I'm not sorry it's like I that's how I make money and like I do it for my son who is worth it like yeah there's no like well one day I won't have to do this you know it's just like you know I'm fine with it it's yeah it's cool they have

their sex positive conversation it ends with Hillary Clinton being like, maybe it is cool. Hadn't thought of it. Anyways, internally bleeding to death. Thanks for talking to me in my last moment. Kind of fun that that was her final lesson. She's like, man, in life, I should have respected sex workers more. Anyways, bye bye. I mean, at least, yeah, it's just like, well, if a woman had to get fridged, at least it's not the woman of color.

That's true. That is like another gold star representation win maybe but then we have harry connick jr telling steve hiller oh you're never gonna get to fly a spaceship if you marry a stripper because will smith is trying to be in nasa and harry connick jr is like don't marry a stripper. What an arbitrary. No, to me it makes perfect sense. It makes one million percent sense to me. Yeah, yeah. It's just like the optics of astronauts are,

I actually, I just met an astronaut over the weekend. The people they select to be astronauts have to be perfect on so many levels. Like not only are they like, you know, incredibly like extroverted and charismatic, they also like, all of them have, like, the perfect nuclear family. Oh, sure. So I think it is.

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, the, you know, because, like, right now they're prepping up for Crew Dragon at SpaceX. And, you know, whenever they talk to the people who work at SpaceX, they always, like, blip, blip, play up. They're like, well, I can't wait to come home to my children boy I sure do have children boy am I hetero and have children

please don't blow us up so yeah no I think I think I think it's just like as silly as that is I think it's like

yeah that would absolutely be a concern sure but also Harry Connick Jr.'s character sucks so fucking bad he's so obnoxious he's like imitating jesse jackson

at one point well it's interesting because he like has the role normally of the like goofy black friend who dies right so it's like it's an interesting thing that they and he's doing that voice yeah it's like so bizarre yeah it's interesting because it's almost like they wrote that for a black guy they wrote it for will smith and then they reversed the part they cast matthew perry before harry connick jr right so like it was always intended for an annoying white guy it's so weird i don't know yeah harry connick jr's performance is out of control we've got to take a break we must take a break from harry connick Jr. and then we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're kind of wrapping up the discussion on Jasmine, where it's like there's pros, there's cons. She kicks down a door. She kicks down a door because women when in action movie must kick something at some point she has a she's like you know Daenerys she's the unburnt yeah we're just gonna yeah she manages to

survive yeah that closet is it's heat resistant don't worry but there is there is like another kind of she is a caretaker and a motherly role for the majority of the movie we do get to know what her job is we do get to see her talk about herself and advocate for herself but she is protecting her child not to say that she shouldn't but she is kind of put into that maternal role and then also uh starts to rescue people and then also briefly kind of becomes Hillary Clinton's mommy nurse. So, I mean, there's nothing like inherently wrong. No.

I want to be clear. Yeah, with like a woman. There's nothing wrong with being a good parent. Right. Well, I think one thing, like, I think that's only kind of very recently started to change is like when you have action movies and disaster movies, men's narratives tend to be, we are here to solve the problem and fight the problem. Women's narratives tend to be survival narratives.

And I think hers is, you know, kind of like the Ur version of that, where it's like during the, you know, disaster, she is the face of humanity who had to endure it. And she then has to survive until she is rescued by Will Smith. So, yeah, you see that a lot. Like, you know, like Hunger Games is, you know, like at least the first one is a survival narrative. Another like weird thing about this movie that I don't know, I see a movie like this and I don't expect to see great fathering, but there's pretty much like everyone is a

good parent in the movie. Hot President is a good parent. Hillary Clinton's a good parent. Vivica A. Fox is a good parent. Hillary Clinton's a good parent. Vivica A. Fox is a good parent. Will Smith is a great stepdad. Even Randy Quaid, you know, he's doing his best. He's probably laying off the sauce. Sick Kid gets his medicine.

Judd Hirsch is like, get off that cold floor. Right, and he thinks of the idea for the computer virus. Inadvertently. I feel like the fathers and the mothers are parenting equally well, but the, you know, fathers get to go off and do cool shit and then the mothers don't.

Yeah, the mother, yeah. So that's the thing. I guess that's the thing. Oh, there's like my favorite shot of the movie, because I have all of them are my favorite shot of the movie,

is where after the aliens are beat and, you know, Robert Loggia goes, we got them beat, Tom. And then he goes how about our boys are they back yet and then in the background

you see Vivica, Fox and Connie like step into the frame and be like yeah are they I hope our boys are okay I hope our boys are back God

they're just yeah they're completely just sidelined for the I mean whatever for act three yeah for July 4th well they do say

you better come back right yeah because they both say it like in their own special way and Connie goes why does it have to be you why can't some other like human sacrifice go and then the boys come back and then the two women run toward them and then they kiss

Kayla when the boys are back in town we've talked to them great in her short shorts not like she's just been through the end of the world um another thing i want to say about her character is and i'm curious what everyone thinks about this but she is the only one who seems to voice any concern about the impending alien invasion she's like i don't feel good about this and then will smith is like what they didn't fly 90 billion light years just to like kill us all and it's like of course they did like i mean they might be asking for help maybe it could be like in might be an arrival or It could be like in... Might be an arrival or something. Or it could be like in Octavia Butler's Lilith's Brood trilogy, where it's just like, we need

some genetic diversity. Randy Quaid, you're looking pretty robust. There is a moment during the, and this is just like made me laugh, when Will Smith is like leaving and then there's something you know apocalyptic happening in the distance Vivic A Fox runs out to him she's like honey honey honey and like doesn't notice the apocalypse until Will Smith says look and then she goes it's like how is this like how could you not see it yeah I had someone on because I was like where is this because this is obviously a place and that exists in the real world and some

like you know it is because the magic of Twitter someone like within five minutes was like, where is this? Because this is obviously a place that exists in the real world. And so I'm like, you know, it is because the magic of Twitter, someone within five minutes was like, here's the address. It's in Glendale. Oh, wow. Nice. What a great gallery. The magic of Glendale. So the point is, so Will Smith drove from Glendale to Orange County, like kind of the south part of Orange County. I mean, it makes sense, because Jasmine has to go through downtown L.A.

to get to El Toro. So that's why, I mean, so it kind of makes sense that she had, she works in downtown L.A., she had to get her paycheck. Yeah. And then she got talked into working. So she was on her way.

But I think, like, and everybody's, like, getting out, and I feel like it must needs be remarked. President Hadi is not a good president. No. He is quite bad at the presidenting. His first, you know, let's not evacuate the cities. He's worried about re-election.

Yeah, he's too busy. What, is he afraid he's gonna offend the aliens i think he's secretly like okay let's alien nuke the states that don't vote for me yeah and you know just like i have some like and jeff goldblum come on even if they nuked every single alien shit that would not cause nuclear winter do you know how many nuclear tests there have been jeff goldblum it's been thousands um so anyway so Jasmine is like hey I think there might be something bad I have a bad feeling about these ominous alien ships that are hovering over every major city in the world right so I'm wondering is like does that is that kind of playing to the trope of like a woman's intuition kind of thing where like, I mean, I think she's the only person looking at the gigantic doom machine.

I mean, like, let's be real. Like black people do tend to have a better self preservation instinct. Sure. So I think it's like speaking to that truth of like all the white people are like, you know,

they're probably here to party. But then Will Smith says that too. And he's like, well, he's a dude. He's a guy, you know? know yeah I mean it's I'm glad that someone said it

because it is very weird to be like people seem remarkably unconcerned it was the 90s they're just like yay the aliens are here I love E.T. yeah so I guess it's good that like we see like the one person who like voices any sort of concern and ends up being right about it is

a woman. So, all right, that's good. That's true. On the other hand, there is Mary, his wife Whitmore, a.k.a. Hillary Clinton. And her, she's away. Do we know what she's doing? She's away on first lady business. Yeah.

She's like doing first lady stuff in L.A. Right. So she's she's away and she's, you know, talking to hottie president and he's like, hey, I think like, babe, I think the world might be like ending. So you should come home. And she's like, no, I am. I have to finish doing this, which is like dumb. But whatever. She said no to her husband fine but there is a gold star but then but then she is later punished for that decision because she dies yeah because she didn't leave when he told her to she does end up dying and in with her dying breath and this just like oh like all right with her dying breath she apologizes to her husband for not coming home when he said she should have and

that you know if only she had listened to her husband she'd be alive yeah she wouldn't have died yeah an amazing lesson and her fair her last word is liar yeah like they you know just like kind of one of those things where it's like it is it is difficult to write like in jokey banter between two characters because it's hard to translate, but their weird relationship in-joke is he'll say an obvious lie and she'll go liar. And the first time they do that is when he wakes up and she calls him

and he's got his daughter in bed with him. And he's like, I have a confession to make. I'm lying next to a beautiful brunette. And I'm like, weird. It's a weird joke to make. I'm lying next to a beautiful brunette, and I'm like, weird. Yeah. It's a weird joke to make, President. About your child. Yeah.

And she's, you know, and she's like, or what was the other one? Like, he'd say, like, an obvious lie, and she'd go liar. And, like, the last little in-jokey banter they do is him going, the doctors think you're going to be fine. Liar. What a horrible thing to say to your dying wife. And she, like, lovingly goes, liar. And then goes, I'm dead. gonna be fine what a horrible thing to say to your dying wife and then like blood burbles up out of her esophagus and also no one is like no one is worried enough about little may whitman like she gets a hug from her dad she handles it well i'm like does she i really understand what's going on because the next day she's sleeping yeah she's asleep and now it's the fourth of july and there's you know alien arms are on fire and

we're smiling like the two children vivica a fox's son and may whitman like when they're hiding in the bunker and like it's like i love 90 because, like, children do not act like children. Where they're just, like, quietly sitting while chaos is erupting around them. People are screaming. And the little boy says to her, are you scared? And she quietly nods and he goes, me too. Cut to carnage outside. Liar. And here she shakes her head and he goes liar like you kids are crazy can we talk about

the conversation between david levinson aka jeff goldblum and connie the press secretary where they talk about yes the first time they're on screen together they're talking about a fight that david and the president got into where where David punched him in the face because he thought his wife was having an affair with Whitmore. She wasn't, but she did later. Right. Or something. Now I'm doing it. Yeah, now I'm fucking him.

The president's in an open marriage. They're cool with it. Liar. So that's a fun thing that happens. And then they have this conversation about her career when they're at area 51 she's talking about working in the white house and how the president is a good man oh yeah he's he's getting drunker through the scene yeah she's like the president's a good man and he says he better be you left me for him or you know your career and she says you know it

wasn't just my career it was the biggest opportunity of my life. I wanted my life to make a difference. I wanted my life to mean something. And then he says, and I wasn't ambitious enough for you. And then they start talking about him and how smart he is, but how unambitious he is. He's like just every Redditor. Like, I'm a secret genius.

Or it's just like, you know what? I could be really, like, successful. I'm a secret genius. Or it's just like, you know what? I could be really successful. I'm a genius who's lazy. I'm just a lazy genius. I'm just too tired. Right. And it's like he refused. I'm an underachiever.

He apparently refused to correct that problem. And so she left him. Right. Yeah, well, he just would not move for her is what it seems like. He just was comfortable in his rut in New York being an engineer at Comcast or whatever. I love that male narrative of just like, well, I am smart and have to do something better, but I'm not going to. But you know I could. Yeah, I just haven't been presented with the correct opportunity.

Like an alien apocalyptic invasion. Yeah, now's my chance. Wait and see babe but like i feel like this could have been a much more interesting conversation about like how he resents her career ambitions because of his like fragile male ego which is something that happens in a lot of you know hetero couples and that she could like call him out for not respecting her and her agency and all that stuff uh Which is where it seems like the conversation is headed. But then they just end up talking about what a genius he is.

So disappointing. Yeah. And then it ends with her saying, I never stopped loving you. And then that's the beginning of their romance rekindling. It wasn't enough, was it? No, it reminds me of like the like Michael Bay does the mean version of this a lot. Like Transformers 1, which steals a lot from Independence Day. Also kind of steals that narrative of like a guy who's like a slacker and useless that, you know, given the opportunity can rise above and, you know, be the successful boy.

But I think the thing is, like with, you know, a character like Sam Witwicky, he is absolutely meant to be like the cipher. He is the self-insert character. And I think there's a reason why, you know, these movies are always written like this. Like it is basically, you know, meant to appease the way men see themselves. You know, that is reflexive media where media reinforces a societal norm, you know, people internalize that, and therefore media is created that, you know, is sympathetic to, like, this particular worldview, and back and forth, and then, like, just the cycle continues. So I think, you know, that conversation was never, ever going to challenge him, because it, you know, was meant to validate that self-image of,

I'm just a secret genius, I'm lazy you're the problem because you don't see my secret genius right and like you wanted too much for yourself and also just like equating like it couldn't just be that she wanted a career it had to have also been another man yeah he's like oh you work for the president so you must be fucking the president. Which, I mean, with Bill Clinton, fair. I mean, I think maybe Jeff Goldblum's just not a very good partner. Yeah. I know. He's jealous of her job and of her being in the same room with other men.

And she's in politics. Most of the people she's going to be in the same room with are going to be men. Right. Maybe, yeah. Maybe he just knew that about himself. He couldn't deal with it. And like the Jeff Goldblum character, just kind of speaking to what you're saying about like reinforcing how men see themselves. I feel like it even goes a step further because it's not just saying like, oh, like there's a large amount of men who, you know, feel that they are secretly

capable of more than the opportunities that they're given and they're angry about it. in Jeff Goldblum's case they make they also make that true and so everyone around him is like you are a genius like yeah because it's like you need to be uh you know presented with extraordinary circumstance in order to realize your potential and it's a very appealing narrative and I think it's like it tends to star men because they you know tend to need the most validation but also like I think I think they're uh you know male audiences are going to respond a lot more strongly to this idea of like I'm a secret genius than women are is why you never really see like women characters that are just like I'm just a schlub until like until because they like women have to they start hyper-competent

and good at something and then they get more hyper-competent and I was like Captain Marvel or Katniss or every female Marvel character

yes it's there's no fortunately all men are secret geniuses yes that's true you're all very smart you're all

brilliant the same thing kind of applies to the president where in the beginning it's set up that the public thinks that he's a wimp. He's not like the fierce leader that Americans thought they elected. And then he redeems himself by going into battle as like a fighter pilot, as a soldier to fight off the alien invaders.

So it's like the idea of like a man showing his worth by like being a warrior, a protector. Like that's how men that's how men show how fucking awesome they are and that they're not wimps. And I mean, it probably got him reelected in the upcoming election because he's like, I'm the guy. I don't think there's going to be elections anymore. I think it's like it immediately descends into fascism. It is. Yeah, because, you know, there's like alien survivors. There's alien Guantanamo Bay.

It's, you know, and it's very controversial cause it's just like, well, should we treat them the way they treated us? And then like, it's like in district, what was it?

District nine. Yeah. It's just, it's just, it's like that, but worse. Like there's torture. They try to hide it.

Is district nine just like July 5th in the world of independence day? I feel like if this movie extended like July 5th in the world of Independence Day? I feel like if this movie extended to July 5th, yeah, it would get very dark very quickly because then Mae Whitman needs to learn that her mother is dead, not sleeping. Everybody's punching aliens in the head. It's just going to be a disaster.

It's funny because Independence Day resurgence, I guess it took a very humanity after the Black Plague approach to rebuilding because everything's great. We've got all this technology. World peace achieved. You know, when like, you're just like, we rebuilt really well. Everything's great.

Hong Kong's looking pretty nice. I have a question for the table. Do you think, yes or no, that this movie was approved of and partially funded by the Pentagon? It absolutely was not. It was not. I would have guessed, though, yes. I guessed that it was. And then I did some research.

Because we've talked briefly in the Transformers episode and I think also in The Rock of just movies that were signed off on. I mean, the Transformers, the entire, I mean, you know better than anyone. They got so, I mean, like, here's the thing. All of them. Yeah, it's actually really hard to get numbers on this sort of thing because, like, for the Pentagon, it's classified. And for Hollywood, they don't have to open their books. So it's like from project to project, you don't know what the subsidy looked like.

But you can tell that it's probably a lot more sizable if there's actually a tie-in ad campaign like Man of Steel had that and Captain Marvel had that yeah Captain Marvel is like one of the more recent movies that it majorly promotes the Air Force right um like I mean it goes back to like after Top Gun came out like Enlistment went way the fuck up every Transformers movie a couple Marvel movies not all of them like Winter Soldier Iron Man 1 and, but not the Avengers because I guess the... No, they didn't actually... Avengers got shot down for a pretty similar reason that Independence Day got shot down, which was they didn't like the shadowy cabal of the powers that be in the Avengers that were like giving secret orders to S.H.I.E.L.D. That's what they didn't like.

Yeah. And Independence Day, they didn't like Area 51. Well, and then another thing that they didn't like about Independence Day that I found, because it's, I mean, again, it is like hard to find details, but it seems to kind of come down to this one guy, Phil Strub, until like less than a year ago. We could go on about Phil Strub. That's not even his job anymore. He was removed at the end of last year.

Oh, wow. And now it's another guy. Oh, he was there for there for like the entire Yeah he was there for like almost 35 years Yeah I went in a Phil Strub hole Yeah Phil Strub is interesting Because he's like this shadow man That like no one can get an interview with him He is like For our listeners he is like the connection

Between Hollywood and the Pentagon The military Any movie that receives their seal of approval have to go through him directly. And it was like that since possibly like it's like the 80s. It was the 80s, early 80s. Like Top Gun was definitely in there. All the way up until the end of 2018. And there was never a press release, but he's no longer in that position.

It's someone else. I had no idea. It's confusing. But he so one of the reasons given for independence day and it's like again he will never state this but i guess that uh will smith's navy pilot dating a stripper was a problem for the pentagon as well see yeah you were right yeah so uh yeah so this movie did not get the pentagon seal of approval and i guess as a result like had to develop effects even better because they didn't have any really assistance so there was some special effects all right so moral of the story a feminist icon the pentagon

and i mean this i feel like this movie does do a fair amount to, like, normalize sex work and stripping. Yeah. More than a lot of movies we have seen, which will just have a scene that, like, takes place in a strip club for no reason. And they're just, like, naked women there as scenery. So at least we don't, you know, at least it goes a few steps beyond that. And to Roland Emmerich's credit. You can kind of tell the movie wasn't directed by a straight guy. Right. You know, it's just like he clearly tell the movie wasn't directed by a straight guy. Right.

The camera clearly has no interest in Jasmine sexually. He thinks she's pretty but the camera never leers on her. Again, the obvious comparison being Michael Bay. There's never any leering shots that are objectifying

or fetishizing. She's always very human the first time you see her. She's fully clothed and plaid and has a ponytail. The one stripping scene is very, very short. Very showgirl-y. The way it's shot is just like, yeah, I like women. Yes, I like, yeah, looks good. It feels a little like, I respect women. A little Uncanny Valley.

A little like, I don't really know how to make a woman look sexy because I don't really want that. But like a lesser director probably would have been like, oh, we're not going to get Pentagon money if we leave a stripper narrative in. Because it could technically be removed from the story and not affect that much. Which, you know, does that speak to how much the women affect the plot yes but it's like i i thought it was like cool that he didn't cut it even though that was one of the reasons given yeah i mean but i guess she's six positive she's here to she's here to normalize sex work to hillary clinton she showed her a thing or two about a thing or two. You with your assumptions.

I make good money. I own a house in Glendale. Yeah, I'm not a ballerina. I'm like, I can't afford a house in Glendale. Who can? This is such an like an Americ-centric movie for being directed by a German guy. Well, his follow-up was The Patriot. Oh, what?

Yeah. What? Roland has an interesting... Double down, me. I think it was The Patriot, or it was either Godzilla or The Patriot. Actually, I think Godzilla was next, and The Patriot came after that. All right. But yeah, he has an interesting filmography.

But it's just like all the people in the movie who are like the most capable, the ones who are going to figure out how to crack this alien problem are all in america and everyone else in the rest of the world was just like sitting around twiddling their thumbs it's about bloody time best scene ever he's also the day after tomorrow right that's him too other best movie he loves a disaster he loves a disaster he loves a mess oh god because like that was when he was like trying because i think that's like or post 9-11 roland that's his blue movie yeah where he's like i'm gonna use my you know disaster movie powers to make money which again to roland's credit he's like one of the few or was one of the few people keeping non-franchise films alive because you know you think of like the biggest grossing movie in 1996 being independence day you know that would never happen now ever ever ever right but yeah because like you know

back when so like day after tomorrow him trying to like i'm gonna make a point i'm gonna make people take this seriously and i think it probably had the opposite effect what a goofy that's like a jill and hall emmy ross yeah and it kind of does the same thing with like President Dick Cheney at the end where it's just like he's trying to be sympathetic to the powers that be

and give them the benefit of the doubt I loved that movie where they have like all the Americans like breaking into Mexico right

switcheroo is Dennis Quaid is in that movie yes yeah the Quaid speaking of a Quaid Quaid the Grinder I have more

in with the Quaid boys I want to say just a little bit about Randy Quaid's kids have more to say. Quaid the Grinner, Roland's in with the Quaid boys. I want to say just a little bit about Randy Quaid's kids. Yes. Oh, yes. We learned in the backstory that there's no mom because I feel like all the moms are dead or die in this movie for the most part. It's basically a Disney movie.

Yeah, exactly. Because Jeff Goldblum's mom is dead and then the First Lady also dies. So Randy Quaid has two sons and a daughter the sons get to talk a lot when we see them you know they're in the scene they're in the foreground whereas like the daughter hardly says anything she's usually in the background the one scene where she is the focus she is with a boy who is trying to convince her to have sex with him to like lose her virginity with him. And then her brother comes in and he's like, come on, we gotta go.

And she's like, I'm not going anywhere. And then her brother yanks her away. That happens to her twice, too, because Randy Quaid does that to her one of the times where she keeps being like, I want to do this. And then someone around her is just like, no, slam. What's her name? At Area 51. Wow. Finally, something about Independence Day. I don't know. I do not know this character's name i was trying to i like rewound scenes i was looking

for it because i knew that older sister and mrs doubtfire son yes because miguel's alicia according to alicia yeah according to imdb it's her character's name is Alicia I mean nothing she never appears I don't think her name is ever mentioned at least in the theatrical cut I think it might be in the director's cut

because again like the director's cut is like so much meandering of like you know there's a lot more of like

Miguel being resentful of Randy Quaid and in fairness he has good reason to be resentful like the Q man he needs to lay off the sauce he's not being a very good father I just feel like sure Randy Quaid and in fairness he has good reason to be resentful like the Q man he needs to lay off the sauce he's not being a very good father I just feel like sure Randy Quaid does come in at the

very end and saves the day but I feel like his storyline should be cut entirely have someone else save the day have the fucking president save the day I don't care but just like there should be more real estate give Randy Quaid the president. Cut Bill Pullman. To me, anything is worth, hello, boys. I'm back. Yes. And then the crowd cheers. Yeah, actually, I guess in preparation for this, not really.

One of the, in the distant past, episodes of Game of Thrones that left a really bad taste in my mouth. I had some people over for a watch party. I was like, we're watching Independence Day. Because it's just, especially if you have a nice home system, the effects hold up really well. But it's just the joyous dumbass know, Randy Quaid's culminating moment. It always makes me happy. His suicide mission. Yeah, and then, like, the music swells and alien body parts are raining from the sky

and it's just so, like, you know, USA. It is so, it's so, and it's, like, I can't think of any other screen moment like that where, again, it was like, if there was a suicide moment played today, it would be extremely grim. We would, you know, but this is like a blaze of glory moment. Like, it's not meant to be sad at all. Like, when three children have just lost their father. Those three children are cool. They're like, I'm so proud of my dad.

I'm not going to shed a tear. We inherited the RV. It's fine. Right. Now there's just three kids in an RV, which is a series I would watch. I mean, I just think that we should have cut the Randy Quaid subplot and spent more time developing the female characters. I love Randy. That's all I have to say.

Randy's got to stay. But give Randy's daughter more to do. I'd say cut one of Randy's sons. Yeah, we don't need all three of them. We don't need both sons. Have her be the puker. We actually don't. We could get rid of both sons.

We could make her mad at Randy Quaid and sick. And then just cut the boys. Then we'd have a petulant daughter. Like, you're not my real father. Yeah. I don't know. I kind of like that it's a boy who's like, you're not my real dad. You're just the guy who married my mom. I think that's in the director's so moody he's got a

middle part you're like ah 96 yes um can we talk briefly about how this movie handles queerness which is that we see harvey firestein in the movie here's the gay of the early 90s played the same character in Mrs. Doubtfire. Yes. You know, it's a pretty stereotypical portrayal of a gay man. Then he dies almost immediately. And then there's another moment where Steve Hiller is at base with Harry Connick Jr. Harry picks up the ring that he's going to propose to Jasmine with. So it looks like Harry Connick Jr. is

on his knees proposing to Will Smith. That's what it looks like. And then this other guy walks in and then he sees them. I love that joke. And then he walks away. And then he's like, cool with it. He's like, you guys are having a moment? I'm going to leave you to it. I'm glad that you have that interpretation.

I interpret it more as like a I don't want any part of this. Let me slowly back away and then run. I guess I'm coming at it from the like knowing Roland Emmerich and his background. It was just like A, being a gay man, B, being incredibly naive. That does, that context does help. Yes. Because I think like he thinks, like obviously he thinks Harvey Fierstein is hilarious and I don't think he

sees it as self deprecating or like as playing into stereotypes. I think he sees it as isn't Harvey Fierstein hilarious. Isn't it funny when he

goes forget my lawyer. You know like and he's just cracking up behind the camera. Yeah like he's like oh I just like the fact that his death is oh crap. You know like again oh, it's just like the fact that his death is, oh, crap.

You know, like, again, something you would never, ever see in a post-9-11 world. It's like not even played for pathos. It's just like, oh, well, we lost another one. So strange. Because to me, Harvey Fierstein plays way less into queer tropes and more into Jewish tropes. That's true. He's like calling everybody and he's like, you gotta go stay with Anista. You know,

and then like, he's on the phone with his lawyer. He's on the phone with like, you know, every person he has even a remote business relationship. Yeah. He's like,

for $300 an hour, like you can put me through to his house in the Hamptons. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, that didn't, that didn't bother me too much

just knowing that it's a queer director. And it's like queer director and it's like you know he but also roland emmerich made you know he made stonewall and that no i think roland emmerich is very like he's got some weird i know i think he just like and this is not to excuse it but i really do think he comes from a place of incredible privilege because he was raised incredibly wealthy he was like you know lived in boarding schools his entire childhood and then he just immediately got a ton of money and started to go making movies so i think he was raised incredibly wealthy. He was like, you know, lived in boarding schools his entire childhood, and then he just immediately got a ton of money and started to go making movies.

So I think he was really insulated from, you know, the struggles, because, you know, he doesn't, he's not really a part of any community, except for the community of the incredibly wealthy. So I think he's incredibly detached from any kind of conversation. He's an interesting cultural, there was a, when I was doing more research on just him in general, one of the first things that pops up is an interview he did in 2015,

headline, Roland Emmerich, being gay in Hollywood has been easy. You're just like... Yeah, I think that is true because he's easy to work with by all accounts. He stays on budget. He doesn't rabble rouse. He doesn't agitate.

He doesn't advocate. And it's interesting because Stonewall was a passion project of his. Like that's basically why he made Independence Day resurgence was so he could get funding

for Stonewall. And you can also, and you can really tell just that he has no connection with any queer communities. He just, he sees it as like,

yes, these are my people, but he does not engage with them at all. Or someone sees it as like, yes, these are my people, but he does not engage with them at all. Or someone would have been like, buddy, this is a bad look. Did he ask another queer person about that? Literally any, like, no, I just think he just, he's very isolated. And the fact that he just kind of, you know, plays the game and it doesn't seem to ever occur to him that to ask for rights for anyone but himself okay he literally he really has not had a hard time especially because he had like two big hits right out of the gate and he could just write his ticket to make any movie he wanted because you know this is because like he's i mean he was out but he never did any advocacy

yeah i mean i think he considered making Stonewall advocacy. Yeah. All right. Love an eccentric rich person. Yeah. Any other final thoughts about the movie before we wrap up? It's just fun. Yeah.

It's fun. It's just fun. I love it so much. The shot with the dog. I liked that. When the dog, like shot with the dog. I liked that. When the dog, when the dog like, like jumping into the explosion. I was like, that's,

oh, this is a big budget movie because there is a dog doing something heroic. I just, I have, I have infinite love for like, again, it draws back to the question of can a stupid movie be good? Cause it's like,

cause I was thinking about like the months ago finale of Game of Thrones, which was kind of dumb. It's just like you have a show like Game of Thrones which can't be dumb because it was falling from such a place of internal consistency and sharp dialogue and character consistency. And then it just kind of got dumb in service of the plot. And for that reason, it was not good. But Independence Day is deeply dumb and very naive and just incredibly myopic and hyper-nationalist. I don't want to say I excuse all of it, but I think I can make a good case for it being a very tight, well-made movie

in a way that Roland Emmerich has never been able to replicate so I think that Independence Day gives hope for stupid stories everywhere I mean that was a speech as beautiful as Bill Pullman's you need to like hey editor

you need to put Bill Pullman's powerful music under my speech about how dumb movies can be good, actually. And the movie does pass the Bechdel test. Yeah. A couple times. Talking about sex positivity, even. That conversation, yeah.

That came as a surprise to me. Jasmine and her colleague, who gets named as Tiffany, talk about the welcome party for the aliens and how jasmine tells tiffany that she should not go even though tiffany goes and then dies uh and then jasmine yeah and the first lady talk about that conversation starts with her son and then about will smith but then for a few lines they they talk about their careers yeah yeah there's a few tiny exchanges between little may whitman and her mom too that are just like hi mommy oh yeah but i mean just like there's especially that scene with jasmine and the first lady you're like all right we've got some there's some moves to this yeah there's some substance here i actually think uh i mean we may need to go back on this like

review this but i actually think most of roland's movies passed the Bechdel test. I think Godzilla and The Patriot might be the two exceptions. Also, though, remember that probably 99% of the dialogue is not passing the Bechdel test. So... To the barest possible minimum.

Another tiny ribbon. A lot of tiny ribbons on this gigantic movie. I suppose. And then there's a lot of tiny ribbons on this gigantic movie. I suppose. And then there's like a lot of red pins. Yeah, a lot. Like some gold stars, a lot of red pins. That is why I love movies like this that are like super watchable but deeply flawed. Like that's another reason why I love Transformers 07.

That was the only one that was watchable of the group. But it was so like just so much to deconstruct like you know the military and the terrible characters and the way it's shot like oh I mean I could go on you're an incredible series I could make a series about that so good uh let's rate the movie on a nipple scale uh zero to five nipples based on its representation of women I'm gonna give it like a half nipple. Because even though there are some kind of like pleasant surprises in the movie, like it passing the Bechdel test, we know what the each of the women does for a living, stuff like that. But also,

they're all just like characterized by the relationships that they have to men, really no time is spent developing them as people who are important to the story in any way it's just uh the women are there because they want to kiss the boys so half nipple and i will give my half nipple to is the dog's name boomer boomer the dog i will give it one nipple also alfred melina could have been haughty president he could have been randy quaid he's so yeah he can do anything so he could really be almost anyone in this movie um but i'm gonna give it one because sex positive question mark i thought that was like a pleasant thing to see there be even though women have no effect on the plot in the movie whatsoever

uh if you removed all the women from the movie, it would just be 30 minutes shorter. And then they fridged a woman and that's just so lazy and boring. But I did like that they went out of their way to fully characterize a sex worker in a way that wasn't shamey or shitty. That's true. But then they fridged someone immediately after.

Lots to consider. Sure. I'm going to give it one nippy and I'm going to kick it back to Baby Mae Whitman. All right. Yeah. You know what? I'm super biased. I'm grading it on a curve because 90s.

Sure. I'm going to give it two just because I love Jasmine so much. I think it is super curvy because when I think of even a movie like Men in Black with its one woman, you know, and like everything else. Again, Jurassic Park with its one woman and the one child woman. And the one, yeah, the one child. Which there is a Jurassic Park reference whenever Jeff Goldblum at the end when they're trying to fly out of the mothership, he says, must go faster, must go faster, which is also what

Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park. Brave of him. I know. So, yeah. Cool. Well, Lindsay, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. We love having you every time.

What would you like to plug? Where can people follow you online, et cetera? You can find me on Twitter at TheLindsayEllis because I made that account 2008 back before I realized I had to live with it forever. And on YouTube, my YouTube channel is just my name and uh my debut novel which totally has a title uh it has such a title will be out saint martin's press in uh 2020 hopefully and it does it does does definitely have uh whispers of independence day aliens are involved love it good yes read her book when it comes out watch lindsey's it'll have such a title does definitely have Whispers of Independence Day, Aliens Are Involved. Love it. Good, yes.

Read her book when it comes out. Watch Lindsay's. It'll have such a title. It'll have so much of a title. Incredible. I can't even say it. It's just so good. It's just like, whew.

I don't want to give it that power. Yes. I don't want to be too successful. And then watch all of Lindsay's video essays. We have, and we love them so much yeah they've informed some of our takes yes indeed so thanks again you can follow us at ever heard of us at bechtel cast on the social media platforms that you tend to use twitter instagram sometimes facebook you can also subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matreon.

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That was way better than my plan was to start singing America the Beautiful. You kicked my ass. Today we celebrate our Independence Day. Oh, beautiful. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated.

Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare.

Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you feel about biscuits?

Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the Biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? It's right here in black and white in print. It's bigger than a flag or mascot.

Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.