The Bechdel Cast - Jaws

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

We're gonna need a bigger... Bechdel Cast episode? And we got one with this episode on Jaws (1975)... check out linktr.ee/bechdelcast for our upcoming tour dates in the Midwest!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy's on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the You Versus You podcast, we welcome Polo Molina, music manager to the stars. From Will.i.am and the Black Eyed Peas,

Ty Dolla $y, YG and Fergie. Here's a sneak peek. Are you so hard on yourself? That's the way I was raised. And the people that were hard on me are not here no more. So I'm hard on myself. You know, make me cry. Listen to you versus you on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American history hotline, a different type of podcast. You the listener, ask the questions. Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair? And I find the answers. I'm so glad you asked me this question. This is such a ridiculous story.

You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us, on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the PectoCast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism The patriarchy's effin vast, start changing it with the Bechdel Cast Awuga! Alert! Alert! Bee-wee-wee-wee! We're going on tour! We're going on tour and I know what you're all thinking What are you going to the same four cities again? Normally the answer would be yes, but this time no.

We are for the first time touring in the Midwest. You heard we responded nine years later. We are touring the Midwest. We are very, very excited. And so we wanted to let you know as soon as possible so you can grab your tickets. It's our end of summer tour. Caitlin, where are we going? I will tell you, we're kicking off the tour in Indianapolis on August 30th.

That is a Saturday matinee show with Let's Fest. So check out our show for sure and check out other programming at the festival. I've got a solo show that night, you should come. You should definitely come to that too, come to both of them. So yeah, that's Indianapolis, August 30th. Then the following night on August 31st,

we will be in Chicago. So come on out to that show. We'll be at the Den Theater that night. It's a beautiful, beautiful theater. We're very, very excited. And tickets particularly will be going quick there. So if you're in Chicago, get your tickets now. Indeed.

A few days later, we'll be over in Wisconsin. That's right. We're coming to Madison on September 4th. We will be at the Burr Oak. And then finally, we will be in Minneapolis on September 7th. At Dudley Riggs Theater. So it will be a thrilling week in the Midwest. We are very excited to come and see you, come hang as always. We do like audience involvement stuff. We do meet and greets after. We sell exclusive merch.

It's a blast. So come be weird and parasocial with us. We will be announcing movie picks a little bit closer to the shows, but we can promise you're going to have an amazing time. Back to the Class shows are rowdy and weird and a lot of people have met their significant others there. So are we promising love? Yes. Significant others, friends, or just fuck buddies. Yeah, just go in and find someone to fuck if you want. If you're horny, well, no, actually, if you're horny, figure it out. But you can come to the

show. You're welcome. You can still people welcome. Don't be weird about it. Just don't be weird about it on our system. Yes, indeed. Yeah. And the tickets for all of these shows can be found on our link tree link tree slash Bechtel cast. So grab them while you still can. We're expecting these shows to sell out. So don't wait. As Mr. Andrews says to Rose after the Titanic hits, hit the iceberg, don't wait. Get your tickets now and we will see you there. Should I be invoking a national tragedy? I think that you crested the hundred year rule. It's fine.

Thank you so much. In any case, grab your tickets. We're so excited to come see you. See you there. And now, done, done. Fuck America. Bye. Bye.

The Bechdel cast. Jamie, we're gonna need a bigger podcast. I mean, look, we've been trying. Yeah, tell your friends. Not for lack of effort that we don't have a bigger podcast. Tell your friends, tell your friends. We didn't pivot the video, I guess.

I mean, yeah. Look, we've got a Quint Style podcast. So true. Shugging along full of trauma. Old fashioned, no video. Doomed, who could say? Let's hope not. Let's hope not.

What if at the end of this episode we get eaten? Honestly, it would be a blessing. It would be a blessing. Bring it on. Hi everyone, welcome to the Jaws episode of the Bechdel cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante.

This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Is Jaws a, what pronouns does Jaws use? Well, the characters refer to Jaws as he-him. Yeah, but like, I mean, I guess that they're shark experts, so I'm assuming they know that, but it just feels like it's a given.

Like- They don't question it at all? Like, before they could possibly know that you're using he-him, I just needed like- Definitely. Not to be like obsessed with the like gender of the shark It just felt like the hee-haw was a was a foregone conclusion versus like I mean, this is true I think they just see a foreboding Aggressive thing and they're like, well that must be a male shark

I mean animals don't have gendered gender is a very human construct So right, but it very well could have been a female shark. Well, because Spielberg later on, I mean, famously, the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, so you know, all female growth, growth, exactly over time. Anyway, so yes, we use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. That of course is a media metric created by our very best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel. First appearing in her comic,

Dykes to Watch Out For in 1985, often called the Bechdel Wallace test. There are many versions of it. The one that we use requires this. Do two characters of a marginalized gender have names and do they speak to each other about something other than a man? And also we like it when it's narratively impactful dialogue and not just throw away nonsense. We like it. We love it.

Yes. And today we are taking that intersectional feminist frame and applying it to one Jaws, 1975, directed by Steven Spielberg, which feels especially worthy of mention this year because it's celebrating its 50th anniversary. Yeah, I was really hoping to watch the new documentary about Jaws, but it unfortunately does not come out until after this episode airs tragically.

Rude. But there is plenty, plenty, plenty to be said about the movie Jaws. There's been a lot of ink spilled, and here is a little bit more MP3 about it. Indeed. Here's our contribution to that. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie

Jaws? I was a late bloomer to Jaws. I didn't grow up with Jaws, even though I grew up like, you know, I grew up in Massachusetts where Jaws famously takes place. My mom, not when I was growing up, but my mom when I was in high school and my parents got divorced, she moved to a community not unlike the community in Jaws. She lives in Marshfield, Massachusetts, which is a community that has a wide class gap. There's the rich folks in the hills and kind of the more working class, middle class gap. There's the rich folks in the hills and kind of the more working class, middle class folks

in the city below. It is a town that very much relies on and has a very complicated relationship with the tourist economy. And so while there's a lot of cartoonish elements of Jaws, I actually did feel somewhat at home when I finally saw it. I didn't see it until a couple of years ago.

It was re-released in IMAX, I wanna say three years ago, and that was my first time seeing it. And I have watched it every summer since. So I think this was my fourth viewing of Jaws. And I mean, it's classic for a reason, baby. Is it Coppaganda? Yes, but but it's Movie ever like

It is it's really nice seeing like a movie that like I wasn't avoiding it I just like never saw it and then when you finally see it, you're like, oh, it's it's as good as everybody says It's an incredible movie. It's so good It's so good and much of the lore behind it is really fascinating because it's got that like this movie shouldn't have worked and then it did which is always a fun thing. And it's yeah, Spielberg's like first theatrical release because he made that TV movie that was not unlike Jaws if Jaws was a truck. Yeah, duel. So that was his little warmup.

He's like, okay, well, what if Jaws was a fish? What if the truck was a shark? Yeah. What if the truck was a shark? And he slayed that and he was like 28, which is upsetting, but also incredible. And I, yeah, this movie look. Could we make a better movie than this?

Me? No. I like, no, we couldn't. And there's many movies we've covered on this show that we could make up. Definitely. But this is one of the greatest movies probably ever. One of like, what a, like invented the blockbuster essentially.

I didn't even ever think hard about the term blockbuster but then you're like, you think about it, people lined up around the block. Oh. And they busted. They busted. While they were waiting. And the movie is so good, everyone busted and it came.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why you wait around the block and then you bust when you get in. Yeah, it's like edging. You're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting. And you get so scared, you come. And yeah, this movie rocks. It fucking rocks rules and rules.

It still feels very timely no matter when you see it. I love this movie. I particularly love the Robert Shaw performance. I think it's my favorite. Had no idea he was British. Oh, oh, and also I didn't know that he was a Pulitzer Prize finalist author. Like he was a- Oh, can't wait.

Yeah, he was also a very successful writer and I think was, you know, many such cases. He was always a bit pissed that he was more famous as an actor than as a writer, but he was a very, I wouldn't say he was an underrated writer. He was always a bit pissed that he was more famous as an actor than as a writer, but he was a very, I wouldn't say he was an underrated writer, he was rated. He almost won a Pulitzer. Anyways, I think that his performance as Quint is like one of my favorite performances ever,

which is the coldest take humanly possible. And I don't like Richard Dreyfus. Famously I think he's annoying and it's really it's horrible when someone's a horrible person but it's interesting when someone's a horrible person and it just validates the fact that you never enjoyed watching them perform and that's how I feel about Richard Dreyfus. He sucks and I don't like watching him and it used to just be like am I being a bitch and then I found out he was a horrible person So now i'm like, well, I can freely air. I don't like richard draves. I think he's obnoxious

Yeah, he I didn't know until you sent me that link, but uh, he's a piece of shit It's jaws related to the reason that like I mean he's he's been he's been a piece of shit quietly for years But his most recent outing of being a piece of shit was he had like an outburst against essentially any diversity or DEI in film at a JAWS screening in Massachusetts several years ago. And because Massachusetts is the greatest, he was booed in the theater,

and it made the news rounds. But I mean, it's, you know, an old white man, old white manning, but it just was like, I would not recommend watching the clip. It's rather disgusting. And he's possibly a Republican. We just don't know.

But we know that he, it's one of the more comprehensive hateful speeches I've ever heard. Yeah, he was disparaging of women, of the Me Too movement, of LGBTQ rights. It was literally like if you are not a cis white man, I don't respect you. You make him vomit, as he says.

Yes, he says, yeah. So early in the show to get into that, but and I'm sure Robert Shaw was a woke king, who fucking knows? He did identify as a socialist, so maybe more so. I mean, but look, not necessarily, I mean, to hang out at a DSA meeting long enough. Anyways, this movie's amazing.

And I really, really like it. I think if I saw it when I was younger, it would be in like some of my all time movies, but I'm a pretty recent convert. What about yourself? Honestly, kind of the same. There's an alternate timeline version of me or like a multiverse. Caitlin out there somewhere in the world who has seen this movie a hundred times,

who can quote it, start to finish, who started watching it when I was like eight years old, but that just isn't the version of me who's speaking right now. That's okay. Thank you so much. I saw this only once in my like, it was either when I was a teenager,

like in high school or it was during the kind of great Caitlin movie binge of 2005, somewhere around then, but I watched it that one time, and I didn't see it again until last summer. I saw it at a screening at the Vista in LA, and I was like, holy shit, why was I sleeping on this movie this whole time? This is incredible. What am I doing?

And now I'm gonna work it into my regular rotation because it is so good. It's such a great movie. It's a movie. It's a movie that feels like a movie. We come to this place for magic and for Jaws. Literally that, I do feel this is so court But like it's a movie that feels like a movie if when people are talking about movies, they're basically talking about jaws pretty much

Yeah, it's got something for everyone. It really does whether you're a child or Traumatized from what you did in World War two This movie's got something for everybody Indeed Let's take a quick break and we will come back to do the recap. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car

into a pond. And left a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think in the New York Daily News, it's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't miss the You vs. You podcast. Join Lex Borrero every week as he sits down with some of the biggest names in entertainment

to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. They go deep, covering childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder, but sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated, our family migrated here. I'm like second generation.

Listen to You Versus You as part of My Kultura podcast network, available on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American history is full of wise people. Well women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory. Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions

about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said,

it would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep-diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years. And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Yeah. Okay. Here's what happens in Jaws. We open on... Dun dun. Just saying. Exactly. We open on some young people having a campfire on the beach. A man and a woman run off to go skinny dipping. The man is too drunk and he kind of like passes out

in the sand, but the woman, Chrissy, goes into the water. And we've got that creature from the Black Lagoon shot throughout. And something that's underwater grabs her and starts thrashing her around, and eventually she's pulled underwater, never to be seen alive again. The casting for this is so 70s sexism,

but it's interesting, this character's called Chrissy? Yes. So the casting call for this basically said, okay, are you hot, willing to get naked, and very physically strong, so that we can yank you underwater? And the actor who played her was all of those things. She had done some pinup modeling, I think,

and was a, I believe, a semi-professional flower. She had a lot of... And a stunt performer. A professional stunt worker. Some of our most underappreciated actors, but she, I believe I watched the Jaws documentary that was filmed for the 40th anniversary, so about 10 years old now.

I also watched that one, yes. Yeah, that's the one I sent to you. And she was basically waterboarded during the shot. But she was like, but we didn't call it that back then. You're like, okay. But just like, I don't know, very like casting-y. It sounded like Steven Spielberg was the only person that was like, is she appropriate for the role?

And all the other men in the room were like, Humana, Humana, Humana. So, you know, that's, and because it's like the 70s and everyone's our parents age or earlier, they're like, ha ha ha. And it was so funny. And we just have to be like well if you say so I don't have to agree it sounds like they water ported you

anyways yeah RIP Chrissy. Then we cut to Martin Brody played by Roy Scheider the chief of police of Amity Island very Martha's Vineyard vibes and that is famously also where they shot the movie. A cab does include Brody. Yes. But I do love him. He's a hard, hard.

He's a, he, I mean, but that's why cop again to exist because guys like Brody don't actually exist. I know. Anyways, we love him. So we meet Brody and his wife Ellen, played by Lorraine Gary. Love her too. What a fun. Steven Spielberg is so like, early Spielberg,

I feel like is full of mom characters like this, who just like, I mean, it's not similar to the mom in ET in that she is a much bigger character in that story. She's a single mother. But just that the women in his 70s and 80s movies in rather formulaic movies still have a personality at very least, which so few characters in genre movies do.

It's very like, I am your wife. Here is french fries I made, or however wives. characters in like genre movies do it's very like I am your wife here is french fries I made or like however wives or nagging right but she's humorless she's fun she is like we live on the beach she's like not a great parent she's anyone in the 70s were that's the way that parents just let their kids run around loose all Willy-nilly it definitely was like yeah, a part of the time but also it's just wild how Well aware she is that there's a shark nearby and she's like there are my kids Oh, you don't like that. They're in the water like a

Well, I'm gonna have a drink and you're like, all right, let's go. I Well, I'm gonna have a drink and you're like, all right, let's go. I love her. Yeah, she's fun. And so she and Brody have two sons together and are recent transplants from New York City. Then Brody gets a call about a missing girl, the one from the night before and he discovers her body on the beach or what's left of her because she's been badly mangled and it's presumed to be a shark attack. So he wants to close the beach until further notice but Mayor Vaughn, played by Murray Hamilton, and his minions go to Brody and say, oh, you can't close the beach.

This is a summer beach town and we need the money that tourism brings in. We don't have sharks. That woman died in a boating accident probably. I think there's, I've read about, I didn't know before prepping for this episode that Jaws was a book. I did not read it, but I did look up and watched a video

and read a few articles about what the changes that are made in the book. And one of the things that, I'm not upset at the way Spielberg did it, but I would be curious what it would be like. I guess the mayor is a piece of shit in both things, but everyone seems more like a piece of shit and more complicated in the world of the book.

There aren't really the Spielberg-y heroes that you get, but I guess that the book takes more care in a way that I was like, oh, because I recognize that dynamic from my mom's community. Like it takes way more pains to describe the consequences and the dependency that the community has and how severely many of the residents, like the full-time residents of their community would suffer if the summer economy were to disappear.

And so while it's still ultimately, I think, painted in the book as like the mayor is clearly making a decision against the wellness of his people. I feel like the Spielberg movie makes it as like he's more of like a Mr. Krabs, like he's like our money, money, money. I want money for myself and just me. Whereas I guess the mayor of the book is like, well, like, yo, there's a shark. Oh, it's killing everybody. But otherwise, like people won't be able to pay their rent.

Like it's presented as a more complicated thing where I feel like in the, like the people in Amity and this are more like, they're very sheeple vibes versus like we're not, I mean, and it's like, the movie can only do so much, but I feel like the people are like, the working class normal people are made out to be like, very not smart as opposed to like,

this is a very complex issue. But also they're about to get eaten by a fucking shark. It's not like, you know, it's not like Brody's wrong. Right, yeah, the movie seems to kind of oversimplify it, slash like lean into the villainization of the mayor character. But it's also like. Which I don't hate, but.

No, it works, it still works. I just thought I was like, oh, I would be interested in like alternate universe version of the movie where you had a character that's like, but I am like, I run a small business or like a small restaurant. And if summer people weren't here, I wouldn't be able to yada yada, you know?

Right. Whatever. Yeah, the movie definitely glosses over that. But in any case, Mayor Vaughn is like, pish posh, there's no shark. Then we cut to the beach. There's lots of people having a nice time. Brody is there keeping an eye on things

because he's very anxious that everyone's going to be eaten by a shark. There's a kid there who is singing, do you know the muffin man? And we're like, okay, Shrek vibes? Uh-huh, uh-huh. Just had to throw that out there. No, you're right.

And then there's another little boy, Alex Kittner, who goes in the water and soon after a shark attacks and kills him. This prompts a frenzy in town. Mrs. Kittner, Alex's mother, is offering a $3,000 reward to the person who kills the shark that killed her son. And this town hall meeting is called, and Brody says that he's going to close down the beaches,

which upsets quite a few of the townspeople because they have businesses that rely on tourism. So it isn't just the mayor. There are townspeople who are like, I need summer dollars to survive. It's just very, yes, I guess again, it's just like they're, to me, are presented as very like, you fucking fool,

you're gonna die, which is true. But it's also like, if we're thinking of Jaws being the, if Jaws is capitalism, you know, et cetera. Yeah, I controversially think that the shark did nothing wrong and that the real villain of the movie is capitalism. Well, it's also like, you know, the shark, I guess that that's, I don't know shit about sharks,

but I learned shit about sharks for the purposes of today and A shark probably wouldn't wouldn't have done any of that shit true And then there's like I know we'll talk about it But like the author of jaws went on to become a shark conservationist like yeah Because he felt guilty about the aftermath of jaws. Yeah,, he's like, oops, I was just kidding you guys. I didn't think anyone was gonna read all that. Kind of fun, Peter Benchley, yeah. He's like, oops, and now he's like a legend

in the shark community. Yeah, there's a shark named after him, I found out. Yeah, we'll talk more about that, but we're at this town meeting and then we hear fingernails on a chalkboard And they belong to Quint the Robert Shaw character He's an eccentric local fisherman who says that he'll catch and kill this shark, but it's not gonna be pretty I will do it for no less than ten thousand dollars Quint All right. I'm gonna say this because I don't think I think since my mom stopped commuting

I don't think she listens to the show anymore. So if you notice a change in numbers by one, that's probably her Which is why I feel comfortable saying Quint does not not remind me of some of my mom's ex-boyfriends Whoa, okay. Just the guys that have spent a little bit too much time in the sun maybe. I mean, he's kooky. He's just been in the sun a lot. He's been in the sun and he's been out on a boat

all by himself too much. He's had a couple of natty daddies, let's say that. What's that? Well, it's like a couple of Natty Daddies, let's say that. What's that? It's a fish, well, it's like a cheap beer, but it's like a cheap beer that's extra, it's like turbo beer. Whoa. That, I don't know, my mom dated a couple

lobstermen in her time, and Natty Daddy was sort of the lobstermen drink of choice, because it was beer, but it was stronger. Strong beer, wow. Natty Daddies, I can't fuck with it. They're was beer, but it was stronger. Strong beer, wow. Natty Daddies, I can't fuck with it. They're pretty nasty, but they're strong. There's like a buzz ball for beer drinkers. Oh, okay, got it.

We do see him drinking a Nera Gansett on the boat later on. Yes, and representation matters. It really brought me back to my days of living in Boston. Well, I love going home and having a little Gants at Shandy in the summertime. That's nice. But yeah, he's got, he's Kooky Fisherman vibes. And everyone's like, sure, Quint, yeah,

we'll think about it. Cause he like makes this proposition and no one takes him seriously. No one is asking the question I'm asking, which is what is this accent? Where are you from? What? Doesn't matter.

Not important. It's perfect. It's great. Every choice being made is the right choice. Agree. So after this, Brody starts researching sharks. He's astonished at how little is known about them, which I think at the time was like pretty true. There wasn't a lot of like scientific shark research.

You could just say anything about sharks, which is how, and then Robert Benchley regretted it. Exactly. Meanwhile, a couple like local guys set up a shark trap hoping to get that reward money and the shark takes the bait but the guys don't end up catching it and the one guy almost gets killed so just another reminder at what they're up against and then more people come into town hoping to catch this shark and get the reward money but most of them don't know what they're doing. They're being reckless. It's chaotic and then a guy named Hooper This is the Richard Dreyfus character arrives in town

He's a marine biologist from the oceanographic Institute There to lend his expertise there to lend his expertise, which in this case means, I agree, we have to kill this shark, not like, let's do something else, like I'm a scientist and shouldn't be doing like. Maybe we should like catch this shark. Yeah.

I think that's reasonable. But he's like, no, let's kill it. It's reasonable to catch the shark. Right. So Matt Hooper is there to say what he knows about sharks. And he examines the remains of the young woman, Chrissy, who was attacked in the first scene, and concludes that it is definitely a shark attack.

It was not a boating accident. And he's furious that the authorities in town have been extremely negligent about this. We then cut to a shark that has been captured and killed and everyone is rejoicing because they assume that it's the shark that has been attacking people. That's so funny. It's like that illustrates exactly how much in this world people don't know about sharks because they're like there's only one shark Ever we got it's ass ever a shark

Right, but Hooper is like well This is a tiger shark and its bite radius doesn't really match up with the wounds on Chrissy This shark seems too small. This shark is innocent. Yes. We killed an innocent shark. Oh, sad. And he's like, the only way to be sure, though, is to cut the animal open and see what's in its digestive tract. The mayor is not fond of this idea. And then Mrs. Kittner approaches Brody to slap him and be like, I just found out that you knew about a girl

getting killed here last week and you knew these waters were unsafe and you let people go swimming anyway and now my boy is dead. Great scene, great scene. And now Brody is feeling some feelings such as guilt and he goes home and he's like drinking a pint of wine and Hooper shows up oh I guess he starts drinking the pint of wine after Hooper shows up

because Hooper brings the bottle of wine anyway Hooper shows up to be like hey again I'm pretty sure that shark that got caught is not the shark. And so they go to the docks and they cut open this shark and confirm Hooper's suspicion that this was not the shark who killed the little boy, which means the killer shark is still on the loose. So then Hooper and Brody go out on a boat, which by the way, Brody is very scared of the water. So this is difficult for him.

Yeah, I think a fear of the ocean is the world's most reasonable fear. I personally am afraid of the ocean. It is too big. It is really big. And there's so many scary things inside. I know that you're supposed to be full of a sense of wonder, but that's just not my story.

And that's okay. I am afraid of any water that I cannot see the bottom of. So even like a shallow pond, if it's murky, and I don't know what the ground looks like, I'm scared. There's probably a murderer at the bottom. There is. There's a famous movie about the ocean and guess who wins? The ocean. The movie's called Titanic. Yeah. The ocean always wins. Wow. This movie sets a false expectation of challenging the ocean. You're oh you're so true. Yeah. Wow. Anyway

that's why I only go swimming in swimming pools. Thank you very much. Yeah. Okay. So then, so they're out on this boat, Brody and Hooper, and they're looking for the big bad boy shark using all of Hooper's fancy ocean sonar equipment that he bought himself because he comes from a wealthy family. And they come upon the like half sunken boat of a local fisherman. And Hooper insists on putting on scuba gear and going to check it out, which to me seems like a very bad idea. What with the ravenous shark on the loose and all. Yeah. But he goes in the water and he finds a huge hole

bitten out of the bottom of the boat. He finds a huge shark tooth. And he finds a very funny dummy. Yeah. I was like, it is actually, having seen, I've seen Jaws in theaters twice now and it is unbelievably effective in a crowd. I was so scared the first time I saw it in theaters. And then when you see it and you can pause, theaters twice now and it is unbelievably effective in a crowd.

I was so scared the first time I saw it in theaters and then when you see it and you can pause, you're like, oh. It's a little silly. That's silly. But it is a great jump scare. Everything is so, and also like so much of the like, oh, should I get in the water?

It's just, I do feel like this movie does a great job at having a like three-way dick measuring contest between these men, and they're all, they are coming from such a different place, but all of them are like, oh, you think that was hazardous to your safety? Well, check out, bleh! Like, it's just so, like, masculine,

and it also feels very aware of what it's doing, especially between Hooper and Quint. It's just awesome. There's that great moment, speaking of the Narragansett, there's that moment where Quint chugs his can of beer and then crushes it with his hand and then it cuts to Hooper, who then takes the final swig of his coffee

in a styrofoam cup and then crushes the cup. Which I guess was somewhat improvised on the day, which is because of this whole legendary feud between Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfuss, which we can talk about in a bit. It's not super relevant to our discussion, but it is interesting. Yeah. So anyway, they find this dead fisherman in the huge shark tooth and everything, and it's scary. And they come back to shore and tell the mayor to close the beach because a great white shark is in their midst.

That's what this like tooth confirms. But the mayor is like, it's the 4th of July weekend. I cannot and will not close the beach. Then tons of tourists arrive for the holiday weekend. People are on the beach and they're apprehensively going in the water. But then a shark fin is spotted

and everyone panics and rushes out. And it's like shark patrol are about to shoot what they think is a shark, but it turns out to be two boys playing a prank. Close call for them. Mm hmm. Meanwhile, in shallower water, the real shark is spotted and this is where Brody's son Michael is playing with his friends and the shark is coming for them a nearby man is attacked and killed though the kids are pulled to safety and Michael goes into shock and has to go to the hospital and stuff and then Brody

convinces the mayor to sign a voucher so that he can hire Quint to kill the shark once and for all. So Quint, Brody, and Hooper make preparations. Again, Quint, who is this like grizzled working class fisherman, is like, who the fuck is this Hooper guy with his soft hands and money in his pockets? So there's, you know, animosity between them. this Hooper guy with his soft hands and money in his pockets. So there's animosity between them. They pack up various weapons, equipment, a shark cage, et cetera. And then Captain Quint says,

"'Take her to sea, Mr. Murdock. "'Let's stretch her legs.'" Except this is not the largest ship to ever sail the Atlantic, not by a long shot. And in fact maybe they need a bigger ship, the boat. It's been said, it's been said. So they set off to the seas to try to find this great white shark. They're dropping bait, they're trying to lure it in with chum. There's this moment where Brody accidentally drops some tanks of compressed oxygen and Hooper is like, careful, those can explode.

And we're like, okay, check off air tanks. Then it seems like the shark has taken the bait and they're trying to reel it in on this like huge fish line but they lose it after a while until Brody gets a glimpse of it as he's throwing more chum in the water that famous scene where he like his head pops up into frame oh it's great so good and then right after this is when we get the famous line of you're to need a bigger boat. Because this shark is huge. It's like 25 feet long. It's almost like it's a malfunctioning animatronic.

Almost. Who can say? Yeah. The shark is now circling the boat. So they fire harpoons at it that are attached to these floating barrels so they can easily track the shark and try to prevent it from going under. But this shark is so strong and big that it pulls the barrel under so they lose it again. The hours wear on, night falls,

they start drinking and comparing injuries from the past, and they're sharing stories, including one that provides backstory for Quint, which is that he was a soldier in World War II on the real life naval ship called the USS Indianapolis, which sunk, 1200 people went into the water, and the survivors floated there for days while sharks started circling them and the survivors floated there for days while sharks started circling them

and picking men off one by one. So this is a very, we'll kind of circle back to this. This is such an effective moment in the movie, right? Where it's like taking this stock character and giving him unbelievable depth, the degree to which you're just like, oh my God. I didn't realize, I didn't realize. You know, I mean, there's a lot to be said.

I did a little bit of research into, this was added, this is not in the book. This was added for the movie. They hired, there was like, I forget, there was this movie, mainly was by Peter Benchley and one other writer Who worked frequently with Steve Martin? He also wrote the jerk question mark Oh Karl Gottlieb got Gottlieb, but this was a third writer a secret third writer who? Had the idea for this monologue wrote it out gave it to Robert Shaw Robert Shaw rewrote it for himself

He is also he's a writer and I guess the speech was like seven pages long. But this is all like, I thought it was it, because it's such a specific detail that I thought was like, this has to be from the book, but it's not. And it's so effective if overblown. And like what I didn't get from this, because it's, they're talking about like, they were transporting parts of a bomb

that would decimate areas of Japan, right? What I was looking up, I don't know if this is in the speech, not to, but like they didn't know they were doing that. They knew they were on a secret mission. They knew they were bringing parts of something, but they didn't even know what they were transporting. So they had just done something absolutely horrible,

unbeknownst to them, which is just like very darkly fascinating to me. But the point being, this is a true story, but like the shark involvement is way overblown. Most people died of hypothermia. There were sharks around, but when I was like reviewing this speech, I was like he's implying that like 600 people got eaten by sharks Yeah, that was not the case. It worked. It's better if that happened for the movie

but I just was really this was not something that I I don't know I mean like I've seen the movie several times and I Know that they cite something specific, but I just have never learned any more about it. And it is a very horrible story. I would drink too. Truly, yeah. And apparently there's a Nicolas Cage movie about the USS Indianapolis, like about this whole story. I think I'll skip it, but's yeah I won't be seeing it.

In the documentary I watched there was also people who were on the USS Indianapolis interviewed for the documentary. Yeah I watched the same interviews and it seemed like there were mixed reactions to the Robert Shaw speech in the movie where they were like appreciative that this character brings this story to life, because it was this secret mission that was not disclosed to anyone for a long time afterward. And a lot of the survivors just never either couldn't tell anyone or didn't tell anyone because, you know, this was especially an era where men didn't address their feelings or their trauma and they just buried it and tried to move on with their lives. So they were like, this is the first time I ever saw my story told on screen.

Which is important, but it's, I don't know. It's, it's very tricky too, because it's like, again, it's like, I'm aware that the soldiers aboard the USS Indianapolis did not know that they were delivering doing a war crime. Yeah. We're we're we're climbing, which makes it more tragic to me. And I don't know. It's complicated. I think it's, at the end of the day, I was like that was a very interesting and surprising choice in the world of the movie. Especially to refer to this real life event

because it could have easily just been like a made up mission, a made up ship in World War II. It really makes the movie feel more real. Yeah. In some ways where it's this, I think, you know, whatever. Part of the reason really makes the movie feel more real. Yeah. In some ways where it's, you know, whatever. Part of the reason I think the movie holds up is to some extent it feels like it takes place out of time. There are some dated aspects of it,

but for the most part, it's not like they're using, it's not like you're watching a movie that comes out in 2002 and someone takes out an ancient cell phone and you're kind of taken out of it for a second. But yeah, just having a real life, horrific story of veterans PTSD that there are people who, it just, I don't know, it really brings stuff home and it makes the character so much more memorable.

For sure. And Robert Shaw slays it. There's also a wild, there's so much more memorable. And Robert Shaw slays it. There's also like a wild, there's so much written about the production of this movie that he, cause he had like severe alcoholism. He struggled a lot with alcoholism. As did his father. But there's like two takes of the scene.

And the first one, Robert Shaw was like, I'm going to have a few drinks before. And then was like too drunk to complete the scene. And then, I don't know, I just, I feel, he's, it's like he's really struggling. He called Spielberg and was like, did I embarrass you, I'm sorry. And Spielberg was like, it's all good, King,

just, just don't do that tomorrow. And then he didn't do that tomorrow. He showed up and gave the speech that we saw, and it's great I think it's this is part of that documentary too though that he did two takes of it one Completely hammered and one completely sober and likes and a lot of people were like I couldn't tell the difference He's just such a good actor. They like he nailed it both times. I just really was so Endured to him. Yeah, I like him a lot. So anyway, we get this story from

Quint that informs why he is like fascinated but also has a vendetta against sharks. Very Captain Ahab vibes. Right, right, right, right. Then there's a series of like, the shark comes back, it rams their boat, it disappears again, then comes back again, and they shoot it with another like barrel harpoon thing and tie the ropes attached to the barrel to the back of the boat, the stern if you will, to try to pull the shark toward shallower waters to kill it there. But the shark is so strong that it's pulling the boat around and the boat starts taking on water. So they have to cut the shark loose. Now there are three barrels attached to it, which means theoretically the shark cannot go underwater, but this shark isn't like the other sharks, and it can do anything.

And then the shark starts chasing their boat. So again, they try to lead it toward shore, but Quint is acting a little cuckoo bananas and he's like pushing the engines too hard. But Quint is acting a little cuckoo bananas and he's like pushing the engines too hard. He's like overheating them. They're like catching fire. The boat is lightly sinking. Also he has smashed up the radio

so they can't call for help. He should not have done that. He should not have done that. That was a, I wish I could tell him. If I could reach into my TV, I'd be like, don't. Why'd you do that? Instead of going to therapy. What's that horrible, God, that like really tired meme

where it's like men will smash the only radio communications on the Jaws boat instead of going to therapy. That's kind of his whole vibe. That is his whole vibe. So now they have to switch to plan B, which is Hooper is going to go into the water inside the shark cage and lure the shark close enough so that he can like stab it in the eye or mouth

and inject it with a lethal poison. But the cage seems very flimsy compared to this Goliath of a shark. So it seems like a bad plan, but they don't really have any other options. So Hooper goes in the cage in the water. And of course the shark immediately breaks the cage apart. Hooper drops his giant syringe of poison and he's

about to be eaten and Brody and Quint pull the cage to the surface and it's empty. So it seems like Hooper is dead. The shark is now eating the very sinking boat. This is the part where Quint basically falls into the shark's mouth. It is brutal. It's brutal. It's all you're like, symbolism, maybe. Yeah, yes. Exactly.

Maybe either way, he's cooked. I also, I liked the behind the scenes detail that they like that in the book, Hooper also dies, but they brought him back to life so that they could use a very specific shot of a real life shark attacking an empty cage. Yes. Kind of fun. Because I also, because I appreciated context for that

because I was like, it's also just because I don't like Richard Dreyfus, but I was like, he could have died. He, yeah. I get that Brody's gotta live, but like, he could have died. I get that Brody's gotta live, but he could have died. Well, because there's all these weird class implications now when you kill off the poor, the working class character and you keep the more educated, wealthy guy alive.

But I appreciate that that was not the intention. Right. I do appreciate what it's like, there's a pretty simple explanation for what seems like a pointed choice, but they just wanted to use that scary shot of shark. And I was like, okay, well then I will give you a pass on that one.

So Quint is dead, we think that Hooper is dead, the shark comes back for Brody, and Brody throws one of the tanks of compressed oxygen into the shark's mouth and starts trying to shoot it. He keeps missing and missing until finally he shoots the tank and it and the shark explode into smithereens. And then guess who resurfaces?

It's Hooper who did not get eaten and he and Brody paddled back to shore on the barrels. The end. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown.

There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News. It's, Teddy escapes, blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you. The story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president? Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal. The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't miss the You vs. You podcast. Join Lex Borrero every week

as he sits down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. They go deep, covering childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete.

I'm trained to be like harder, but sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated, our family migrated here. I'm like second generation. Listen to You Versus You as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American history is full of wise people. Well, women said something like, you know, 99.99% of war is diarrhea and 1% is glory.

Those founding fathers were gossipy AF and they loved to cut each other down. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, the show where you send us your questions about American history and I find the answers, including the nuggets of wisdom our history has to offer. Hamilton pauses and then he says, the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. And Jefferson writes in his diary, this proves that Hamilton is for a dictator based on corruption. My favorite line was what Neil Armstrong said, it would have been harder to fake it than to do it. Listen to American history hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcasts from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the

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on the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts. ["Done and Done"] Done, done, and we're back. Okay, first thoughts on this movie. Obviously, we don't have women in it, really. So, note number one, there's really not many women in it. I would say there's three, and one is chunkified

by the shark in pretty short order. However, what I think this movie is great at is showing different shades of masculinity. I think that it is really, really good at that. So it's an interesting conversation to be had because there are two women in particular who are generally kept to the side. They're generally defined by their marriages and motherhood,

but the performances are really good and they're, I guess in movies of this nature, there is more than I expected, I guess. True, with the two women we have. So I guess let's start there and then we'll talk about masculinity. Sure, sure. Yeah, so I mean, like many movies, this is a story about an important and dangerous

task that needs to be carried out. And who's going to do it? Well, it's a bunch of men and women have to stay home and take care of the kids. Yeah. So as we already talked about, like Ellen, again, played by Lorraine Gary, she's a fun character. When she is on screen, she's dynamic, and she has a few fun lines here and there where she says, wanna get drunk and fool around to her husband. Kind of her most, like that's her most iconic,

negligent parent moment. I love it, I love it. And then I also enjoy the part where she, when Hooper comes over and she's like, oh, so my husband says that you're in sharks, as if like it's a division of sales that he's into. Pretty funny line. But other than that, yeah, I mean,

she's not given a whole lot. Apparently in the book, the Ellen character. Oh my God. Is given a much larger presence in the book. She's more complicated and flawed. She's fucking Hooper, right? She's having an affair with Hooper. I'm, yeah, that, I did not miss that.

Yeah. Glad the movie got rid of that. But it's also at the expense of we don't see her on screen, although the movie could have just written a different subplot for her or whatever. That's the thing, it was like, I don't like that, I don't like the way the book goes with her character. It feels like that is just something

to give the Brody character an excuse to be a misogynist. But I also think that there could have been more that she could have been involved in. I mean, I don't know, yeah. There's no reason, theoretically, to me that the Hooper character specifically could not be a woman. I think it would actually be far more interesting

if the Hooper character specifically were a woman. Definitely. A well-educated woman of the 70s, why not? I understand that Quint is kind of inextricably a man. Fine. Fine. Fine, because a woman could not have been on the USS Indianapolis.

But anyways, and it's not like I want girl cop. It's a complicated discussion. What I did think, I thought that the character of Ellen, she is present at moments that I didn't think she would be. This is peanuts, but like I did appreciate that there, Spielberg is really good at this, of adding these like quiet family moments inside of genre movies that I feel like really make his movies special. And there is one of them here that I thought was very memorable where it's like Brody is

sitting with his youngest son. He's like really upset, understandably, because the only other woman in the movie has just slapped him and said, my son's death was preventable, you bitch. And she's right. And he's like, and he knows it. And then his kid is sitting next to him, a clear reminder of like a kid around the age

of the kid who died. And there's just just this really sweet moment that Ellen sees and is clearly very affected by that I thought was just a moment you don't get in most genre movies. It's really good where his kid is kind of mirroring him like kids do and then is like, why are you upset? And he's like, I killed a kid.

But just, and that moment between like father and son of just like a moment of real affection and emotional honesty. It's just something you don't really see a lot. And it really endeared me to everyone in that scene. Totally. I made the same note. Because I mean, think of how many scenes where you see a man in emotional turmoil and he deals with it by trashing a room or lashing out in some violent way and to instead have this like very tender moment between father and son. I mean, the bar is low,

but it was like a very refreshing moment that I appreciated. Yeah, I agree. And I think that like, for its time, even though we're not lit, you know, it seems like, honestly, the way that they're doing their family is very similar is very common for middle class and specifically white middle class families of this time where the wife does not appear to work. She seems to be a stay at home mom. Oh, she seems to be a stay-at-home mom. Oh, she does work, but she's a stay-at-home mom.

And the father is the money breadwinner. But it seems like their relationship is pretty equitable, which I also appreciate. There's not a moment where Brody keeps things from her. There's not really a moment where, I feel like, again, just like what you come to expect in movies like this of this time where the husband would be like, you don't get it. You can't, I was this, again, it's a small thing, but the fact that she's in the room

with Hooper and Brody the whole time they're talking about the shark, again, I feel like a lesser movie, he'd be like, go tuck the kids in or whatever. Like she would be off doing woman stuff and then she'd come in and be like, what's going on? And I was like, she doesn't totally get what's going on, but neither does Brody. And it's not like he is presented as hyper competent in comparison to her. I think really the only edge Brody has over his wife

is that he is, I think, concerned the correct amount about sharks. And she's maybe not quite concerned the right amount about sharks, because she's listening to the mayor and the media, which I don't think makes her a dupe. I think that she's kind of the stand-in for like, well, what do you mean? They said it's fine.

They got a shark. I don't know. I just, I liked how her character should have had more to do, but whenever she was present, I felt like she was treated as an equal and had a personality that was her own, which is the bare minimum you can ask of a character.

But still, in a genre movie in 1975, I was pleasantly surprised by it. And that she's allowed to be horny. Want to get drunk and fool around? She didn't publicly say she was horny. She said she was horny. She didn't even know, there were people filming that. She said she was horny and she didn't die.

Again, in the 1970s, that didn't happen very much. I mean, well, let's look at what happens to the woman in the first scene, shall we? The first horny woman, yeah. Yeah. She is sacrificed to the shark god. So she again, played by stunt performer and actor named Susan Jane Beck-Lyne. She is naked and doesn't need to be, which is, you know, the common trope in horror movies that we've discussed a lot, where it's just like the sexualization of

a woman as she's being brutally killed. It's something we see all the time in horror movies. And this is not the worst offender of it, which is interesting because I feel like when I think about that original death, I remember it as more sexualized than it actually is. Same, and what is that? What are our brains doing to us? I think it's because there's just so many scenes that are inspired by it that are more sexual.

I don't necessarily think it's, it's not an us problem, I don't think I remember it as for sexualized, but I, and I don't know. It's like Spielberg is not particularly guilty of over sexualizing women characters. I don't think if anything, he's not, he's, he's very like sanitized vibes. There's plenty to be. I mean we've talked about Steven Speilberg many times and let's not forget the Zionism. Let's not. In terms of how women are generally cheated, I think in his body of work women don't tend to be hypersexualized to the point where this almost feels like an outlier moment. Right and maybe you can just chalk it up to this was his first big movie. And the

book. Right. Also. And so maybe he's like, I'm not a huge fan of that. I'm not gonna do that again. And like she is naked, but a lot of the naked, a lot of the nudity is implied, although. It's a very dark scene too. I think it's because like,

which I would imagine was related to just like production, but you really can't see very much because of how it's shot. I don't know if the brightness on my TV is turned up too high, but for the first time watching this movie, you can see her nakedness under the water, like in the underwater shot where it's like,

there's like kind of an upshot. It's still pretty obscured and faint and difficult to see, but like you can see enough that I was like, oh, she's got full bush and good for her. But 1975, bring it back, bring it back. Remember, right? So, but it's a quick shot and the rest of the time you don't see nudity really so.

And also I watched. Like you said, it's not the worst offender. But, but, but, and I don't know how involved Spielberg was in this, but that is an image that is harped on in marketing. I also think that that's another reason we remember it as more sexual than it actually is, is because it is used as a selling point to imply that you're going to see and be titillated more than perhaps you actually are. I'm also pretty sure I didn't watch any of the sequels. I thought about it, and then I thought I'm not gonna do that.

But I do think that that is something that subsequent movies are in the Jaws franchise are more guilty of. Jaws hive if you've watched Jaws, I've really seen Jaws 4, but it was on one of those, I was on a show in New York that was like, we're making fun of Jaws 4. So I don't really remember anything, but if the marketing is to be believed, it seems like this idea of sexy woman being torn to shreds by a shark is an image that they return to time and time again. But in the movie itself, I think it's telling in that, I mean, it is what it is.

The movie opens with a young woman who is expressed that she's horny being torn to shreds by an animal. That's not great. It made worse by the fact that she is one of three women in the entire movie. A batting average of one for three in terms of being torn to shreds is pretty bad. There are two men torn to shreds by the shark

and then one child. There are two men, but there's so many men that I think that the batting average is actually not as bad by a long shot. RIP to her. And the other thing that frustrated me was that when the second victim of the shark, Alex, the kid, yes, when he dies,

there are narrative consequences for that. People do not seem, there's no one from Chrissy's life that is like, she doesn't seem to be particularly grieved, which I also think like is unrealistic given how the media tends to narrativize white women's death. Like sensationalized.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, I was kind of adrift by that because obviously, and not that like, Jaws eating a child, that that's bad that's no good. Yes. But it was just weird that yeah there was this weird lack of reaction to a teenage girl getting eaten. Right. I my headcanon was like oh the mayor is like keeping it under wraps which he can't do because everyone saw this child get killed. That was a very, very public thing versus no one saw Chrissy get killed.

That makes total sense. But I don't, but that's not, that's again, just my headcanon. That's not explicitly in the movie. That mirror, that mirror. He's like, yeah, he's like, okay, if there's a shark attack and everyone sees a 10 year old torn to shreds, I guess I have to be like, oh no. I mean, that scene is interesting though. I mean, that's well, actually, sorry, let's talk about the third woman. Yes. There's but one woman to go. Another, I think terrific performance by an actor who is not given much to do, but really makes a meal of what she has.

I am talking about. Le Fiero playing Mrs. Kittner has two scenes. Plays both of them incredibly, I think. Like the scene where she, everyone's running out of the ocean and she's the last person there is heartbreaking. And then when she shows up in, I mean, with all due respect, very party city coated morning clothes.

It was the 70s, who knows? It's, no, I'm calling them out. It looked, her outfit looked like shit. But she pulls no punches with this piece of shit cop that let this happen. I love that scene. I wish that we had any more of her after that. I wish she didn't just disappear into the mist.

But I really, yeah, I thought that that was an incredibly played scene that, you know, I don't know, I just wish that there was a woman involved in the main action. It's not like the actions of women have no consequence in this world, but they don't get to, they're mostly in a reactionary position. They're not very active. Yeah, right. It's more like the emotional through line of the movie versus the more active event that take place. Right. Yeah, they're the victims or they're they're reacting to the decisions that men are making. Right. But a great performance. Indeed. And then there's the men, I guess, starting with Brody. Sure. As you said already,

this is Copaganda, this movie. The movie humanizes police. It perpetuates the idea that cops are here to keep our community safe. When of course. Well and it does challenge that. I just think because I mean that scene with Mrs. Kittner does challenge that. But not in a very. Right. It's not a comprehensive, like he's still the hero

at the end of the day. For sure. And like I like this character. So do I. And that's copaganda done well. I know it. Which is a scary thing. But's copaganda done well. I know it. Which is a scary thing. But yeah, Mrs. Kittner, like, I think it's so interesting

the way that the city and this cop are presented in opposition to each other in the space of this movie, in a way that feels very unrealistic, where as we know, so I mean, we live in Los Angeles, there's, I mean, it's all cops, but we live in a pretty egregious area for cops and the city being very much aligned, more often than not,

when it comes to terrorizing their own people, right? It is very much playing into this narrative of the heroic cop fighting against the evil mayor. And there's no shortage of evil mayors in the world, but it's very unrealistic and very movie coded to be like, the cop is trying to do their job, it's just the city's in the way. I think that that is just so observably

not how things are. I mean, and that's what I mean about the movie perpetuating the idea that cops are here to keep our communities safe, because the reality is that cops are there to protect the property of the ruling class and to incite violence at protests and to union bust and all of those things.

So this is why this is effective copaganda but yeah it's weird because the movie is critical of institutions such as capitalism or it's it's critical of the mayor wanting to keep the beaches open so that the town can profit from the tourism but it doesn't it doesn't apply that same criticism to police. To cops. Which is why I think it's so effective, honestly. Is because it is not completely uncritical of the society that it's released into.

It is critical of some stuff, but not all stuff. And it almost perpetuates the idea that the only thing preventing the cops from keeping you safe are your elected representatives Which can which is just well actually that that like, you know, there's no world Show me a police department where they're really trying to do the right thing It's just that yeah, yeah, like that is observably untrue but it's complicated because yeah, like the movie is criticizing the mayor, but it's like, I think that this is sort of a,

it works great in terms of like, it's a great movie beat, but like the mayor sort of is like capitalism, the guy, in a way that, you know, capitalism is presented in this movie, which is fascinating, doesn't happen in like blockbuster movies often. And it's something like Steven Spielberg is pretty willing to engage with, but it's just him. It's not presented as the very complex issue that it is

because this movie can't be too complicated and work, allegedly. Yeah, I don't know. There is that one moment that I think is interesting in the hospital after Brody's son Michael was almost shocked and was kind of in shock and he's in the hospital and Brody, again, it's like, well, it's all of a sudden a problem

now that it's on my doorstep, which is the story of time immemorial of like, well, it's all of a sudden a problem now that it's on my doorstep, which is the story of time immemorial. Of like, well, it's one thing if Alex Kittner dies, cause I don't know him, to the point where even after Alex Kittner dies, Brody continues to cooperate with the mayor. It's only when his kid almost dies that he's like, I refuse to cooperate any further.

And the only reason the mayor actually shuts the beach down is because his kids were there. Which I think is a very smart, it's weird because in the movie, it's presented as like, I don't see it as a particularly critical moment, but it does feel very real of like, that would be the only circumstances under which these characters would take the safety of everyone into account as if they're,

if they specifically happen to also be threatened by it, which is how I feel like most decisions that are made, that are generally good for everyone, tend to happen because it also threatens the ruling class and it benefits them to make that choice. Right, it feels cut from the same cloth as like whatever shitty men being like, happy International Women's Day to my wife and daughters

and that's it. Only. Only, yeah. Yeah, I agree. I also think the performance from Murray Hamilton, who's in fucking everything, babe, he gives a really good performance. I enjoyed it. He plays a villain very well. I also remember when he was in DeGraduate,

he's Mr. Robinson. Oh, that's right. He's Mr. very well. I also remember when he was in DeGraduate, he's Mr. Robinson. Oh, that's right. He's Mr. Cucked. He's cucked, he's cucked, and he's sort of cucked in this movie spiritually as well. Wow. When you think about it. I'm thinking about it.

Thank you. He's also in the Amityville Horror. Have you ever seen it? You know what? I've seen the Ryan Reynolds one. Oh, they're both bad. They're both bad. I guess that's all we are, they're both bad,

but in very different ways. But he was also in that. He's very, when I think of a movie that came out in the 70s, there he is. Sure. The last little piece, I think, of Copaganda here is the scene where Brody and Hooper are on the boat at night looking for the shark. And Brody is drunkenly, after his pint of wine, talking about being a cop.

And he's like, oh yeah, New York City, there's violence, there's muggings, but you know, in a town like this, one man can really make a difference, you know, in 25 years, there's never been a murder here. And he's chalking that up to police being effective at their job, ignoring that, you know, in a place where they are, which is basically like Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket or a similarly wealthy place or an island full of mostly upper middle class people, that there isn't

crimes of desperation and stuff like that. And he's like, no, it's because of cops being competent, of course, and we know that that's not true. Yeah, and the fact that that's what a drunk cop would say is I believe in the power of war. Like, right, right, sure. Yeah, Akeb includes Officer Brody, and again, not the worst example of it, but also a really good example of it in a way

because I still like him in spite of it all. Then we have our college boy, Richard Dreyfuss, Hooper, the Marine biologist. Another interesting little piece of gristle here because the movie does not, with him, shy away from class. It doesn't do much with it. Well, actually, maybe that's not true. I did appreciate that this movie both needs Hooper.

It's not disparaging of his higher education, but it also acknowledges why he has it, and I appreciated that. He basically admits, he's like like the rich boy allegations are true. I'm a rich boy. I guess in the book he is way more of an asshole about it. And he's hooking up with Ellen. So I think he's, again, the book honestly,

I considered reading it, but I'm like, it sounds like a bummer. I would much rather watch the movie Jaws, unfortunately. But in this world, he is highly educated, very necessary. I think that between Quint and Hooper, there's an interesting balance struck of they're from very different classes, they resent each other for it, which makes sense and is

like something that we've all seen in either direction, but that they are also both totally valid, but they're also both like very needed on this mission. And they're like, you could argue the person who is basically useless is Brody. Totally. He's like, I'm scared of the water, why am I even here? He's Mr. Chum, like, it is kind of like, why are you here, Mr. Chum? But like, that Robert Shaw is from, I mean, working class background,

we don't really know much about him other than he was in the service. But he's a veteran, it doesn't seem like he, given his reaction to Hooper, I don't think that he has a lot of higher education. But he knows how to fucking drive a boat. He knows like- He knows the ocean, he knows fish, he knows sharks.

He has the experience. Yeah. And he's like literally how he's introduced is as an authority, even though people are still like, ooh, he's weird. And like still like, ooh, he's weird. And like, to be honest, he is weird. So, it's not necessarily classist of people to say Quint is weird, because also like, he's weird.

And people of all classes can be weird. And there he is being weird. But anyways, but he is presented as an authority whose labor has extreme value. I mean, granted, he doesn't really get to use the money because he's eaten by a shark, but he gets his rate. And I hope to one day get my rate before being eaten, and sawed in half.

So, I don't know, I appreciated that with both of these characters, the movie realizes that they are both integral to this mission working. Like the mission does not go off the way it does without Hooper's expertise, and it certainly doesn't go off without Quint's expertise. Hooper's annoying, but I also do,

I don't like Richard Dreyfuss, but I do like the character. Like I do think outside of what you pointed out before where he's like suspiciously very uninterested in conservation, which feels just like a bad writing choice that feels unrealistic because it's also very incurious for someone that's like, I love sharks to be like, kill it and I'll dissect it.

Like wouldn't you want to observe it? Wouldn't that be useful? Right. And he's a scientist. Like he's not a hunter. He's not a fisherman. Like you would think he would be, he would understand. It makes sense that Quint wants to kill the shark because that's his job.

Right. But Hooper, he would know how important sharks are to the ecosystem of the ocean and that you shouldn't just kill them. It honestly would have been a more interesting narrative choice if Brody and Quint are like, no, this shark needs to die for public safety reasons.

And by contrast, Hooper was like, no, we can't just kill a shark like sure we can try to catch it and contain it and transport it elsewhere or something. And you can argue that like no this shark needs to live for public safety reasons like you know by observing like even if you're strictly thinking about sharks as they relate to people, it's like understanding the behavior of sharks would be far more valuable than just, yeah, that really feels like a writing error

more than anything else, because I think scientists were not, let's say consulted on the writing of the book specifically, and I agree, it is like a more interesting dynamic. And then it would be interesting to see what does Brody think about that. That just like adds a more complicated element to everything versus, okay, so we're all on the same page,

we've gotta kill this shark. It's just the how that we're struggling with. Like the whether to do it or not is very interesting, but it feels like maybe there's the script at the production, like they did not do research like that is what it sounds like. Could be, could also be that there, again, wasn't that much shark research available at the time,

but there were marine biologists, there were people who were experts in this area. Who's the French guy in the hat? Makes you wonder. Cousteau. Yeah. This is Cousteau era. Jacques Cousteau, remember him?

Kinda, yeah. He's the French guy in the hat. Wait, let me check. What if I was wrong? I know the name, but I just guess I don't know what he does. Cousteau. He's a famous French marine biologist. Like I think he had a...

Yes. Okay. Yes. Oh, he looks like Steve Zissou in all the photos. Oh, that's okay. That makes sense. And actually Steve Zissou did not make that up. It was Jacques Cousteau.

Yeah, I believe he is very popular, a popular cultural figure in the 70s and may in fact have something to do with why this movie was even made because it was like, and listeners correct me if I'm wrong, if you are a knower of ocean facts or a Cousteau head, my vague understanding is that Jacques Cousteau was a very popular figure in like the 60s, 70s and 80s, and was kind of one of the first, if not the first, mainstream oceanography expert to become very popular.

So I think you're right. There is an interest in the ocean at this time, but perhaps not a lot of commonly accepted. I mean, which is wild because you think about the impact of Jaws and like there's no world where there's, you know, remember the 10 consecutive years where Noel would shut the fuck up about Shark Week? Oh, yes. And it's just like, you've got to shut

the fuck up about Shark Week. I'm not, I'm not interested. But like, I don't know. That's one of the interesting things. I mean, even with Peter Benchley, like we were talking about, this movie, like I don't think anyone's arguing that this is a correct scientific representation of a shark. It's like projecting a bunch of symbolism

and Moby Dick kind of shit. I mean, I have a whole section on this. Oh, okay. If you'll indulge me. Let's do it, let's do it. I guess to start though with the, and this is like pretty well known knowledge, so I'll just make this really quick

and I rattle stuff off. I know very little about sharks. About the, sorry, well known knowledge about the like behind the scenes making of the movie. Oh sure. I'll start with that and then we'll go into sort of the like public reception of the movie. So for anyone who doesn't know this movie was a very difficult shoot. It went over budget and over schedule by like triple. The script kept being rewritten during the shoot. The ocean and the weather were very temperamental. The cast and the crew were largely miserable the whole time.

The studio kept almost pulling the plug on the production. And the mechanical shark famously rarely functioned, which ended up, again, famously working to the movie's benefit because they basically ended up having to imply the presence of the shark rather than show it on screen as much as they initially intended to. Which lended a sense of like the shark is looming around but we can't see it and that makes it scarier. That plus John Williams' core. Yeah. Great. Perfection. So difficult shoot, but against all odds,

the movie was finished and made into a really good movie and released and it became a smash hit. It was like you said, the first blockbuster. It is wild. It made half a billion dollars in 1975 money. That's approximately $3 trillion today. $9 million budget. And that was twice,

like I think it went over its budget twice. So it was technically a $4.5 million budget movie that went to $9 million and then made $1 trillion billion. Everyone saw this movie seven times. Yes. And it was also one of the first movies that got a very big release everywhere simultaneously because yes Prior to this it was like, you know

A movie would open in this city over here and then maybe a little bit later it open over here It's spread it if it did well in a certain like market Yeah, like if you lived in the if you lived in any far-flung area It would take a long time for a movie to get to you because it would be tested in a bajillion markets before it got to you. But everyone got Jaws. Also like a real big, especially because it's like, I had to keep reminding myself, Star Wars comes out after this.

And so this movie also sort of sets the precedent of like a huge marketing and merchandising push as well. Definitely, this is one of the first movies that sold a bunch of merch that people absolutely gobbled up. There's t-shirts and posters and toys and games, like all these tie-ins. Shark underwear, you're like, why not? Yeah, exactly, all this stuff.

And the movie's approach to marketing was fairly new for the time, where it ran a bunch of trailers as ads on TV, which was not very common at that time. That contributed to the amount of people that saw it. Yeah, it stayed in theaters for like a year in some places. Like this was the first blockbuster. was the first blockbuster. And not a whole lot of movies have rivaled its impact and popularity since. And obviously after this Spielberg was given a blank check

to do any movie he wanted for the rest of his career. And he did. And he did. He's obviously, I mean, another really ice cold take here. He's made some great movies. Many of them are my favorite movies of all time, which is difficult to reconcile right now knowing his relationship with Zionism, which we talked about to a pretty large extent on the ET episode we did last year.

Not too long ago. So as far as we know, I double checked going into this. As far as when we're recording this right now, which is June 25th, 2025, our conversation that we did in our ET episode is from what I can tell still up to date. Yeah. I mean, it's like inextricable from the conversation about him.

And also the fact that like it's, that he's one of the greatest directors of all time. And like, we have to hold these two things together. Also, I mean, I don't know. No, sorry, continue, continue. Yeah, I mean, the point here is that this movie was the biggest movie of all time up until that point, more or less.

And well, you'll never believe this, but it impacted the public perception of sharks. This movie famously made so many people afraid of sharks, afraid of going into the water at the beach, also afraid of going into lakes and swimming pools, places where sharks would never be, because of how the shark is represented in the movie, which is, you'll never believe this, not very accurate.

And I'm not saying that sharks have not attacked and bitten and killed people throughout history. That has happened. Obviously sharks can be dangerous. But again, the way the shark behaves in this movie is not accurate. As author Peter Benchley put it, because as we said, he and his partner Wendy would go on to become advocates for ocean conservation and for the protection of sharks later in their lives. Peter Benchley said in 2006, quote, sharks don't target human beings

and they certainly don't hold grudges. There's no such thing as a rogue man eater shark with a taste for human flesh. In fact, sharks rarely take more than one bite out of people because we're so lean and unappetizing to them, unquote. The Benchley stuff I think is very, very fascinating. And I appreciate like truly as someone who could not have anticipated his work

being as impactful that it was, like he was basically writing a pulp novel at the time. Yeah. That he did so much to course correct that, I think is very admirable. And it seems like the oceanography community agrees. And it's also one of those complicated relationships where I think it's referenced in the documentary

we both watched that, well, yes, there's a lot of, there's inaccuracies that you're taking us through about how sharks are represented. This movie also inspired a lot of future oceanographers. Like, it's very, very interesting. That's the benefit of the impact of this movie globally. The detriment of the global impact of this movie is that because the shark was presented in such a like bloodthirsty, vengeful way that, you know, great whites are just gonna go and kill a

whole town of people if they aren't exploded. This led to people like shark hunting for sport and trophy and stuff like that. So this is from the Smithsonian Magazine from 2022, a piece entitled entitled Steven Spielberg regrets how Jaws impacted real-world sharks it says quote Jaws spearheaded a collective testosterone rush in the East Coast of the United States leading thousands to hunt sharks for sport in the years following the film's release, the number of large sharks in the waters east of North America declined by about 50% unquote. And then a couple other stats. Here about 75% of oceanic shark species are faced

with the threat of extinction due to, I mean, to some degree, it's like fisheries over fishing. Some experts are like, well, you know, we can't give all the credit to the movie Jaws. Like, it's just that fishing practices are largely not- Are horrific. Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's overly simplistic to suggest it's all because of Jaws, but's not not like jaws is a contributing factor for sure So yeah, basically in the years that followed this movie coming out a lot of people just started shark hunting And it's because of the the representation of sharks in this movie. It's because not very much was known about them at the time. According to sharkstewards.org,

which is an organization that seeks to save endangered sharks from overfishing and the shark fin trade. According to them, over 500 species of sharks are not dangerous to humans, and only a few species have been involved in serious or fatal attacks on humans, but this went ignored and people were just murdering millions of sharks every year right and left. Which is horrifying.

Horrifying, yes. And ignoring the fact that, again, sharks play a crucial role in maintaining healthy ocean ecosystems. It's the same, I mean it's like not the same conversation, but it's like about bees and like an animal that is critical to our ecosystem that it is just very socially acceptable to kill because they're viewed as being overly aggressive or as pests. Right. Thank you for doing that research.

Oh, sure. Yeah, this movie's legacy in so many different areas is gigantic. I mean, even now, speaking to the marketing side of stuff, I was at the grocery store yesterday and there was Jaws 50th anniversary wine at the front of Vons. What? And there were people at the front store yesterday and there's like Jaws 50th anniversary wine at the front of Vaughn's. What? And there were people at the front being like, oh my god, Jaws wine. And I'm like, it's still working. It's so like, people will buy anything with this damn shark on it. Like,

so literally there were two women who didn't know each other at the front of Vaughan's being like I'm getting the Jaws Pinot Grigio. Like wow do you think that's what Brody pours into his pint glass when he drinks the pint of wine? I think ironically I think all I think would Quint fuck with Jaws Pinot Grigio? I think not. No way. I think not. Speaking of Quint. Oh yes. My good pal, Quint. So with Quint, I think it's interesting to refer to what you referenced earlier in that documentary, which if you're interested in the production of Jaws,

it's very marketing-y. It's not like revolutionary, but it is free on YouTube if you wanna watch it. There's also a new 50th anniversary documentary coming out July 10th, it's about two weeks from now, so I will be watching it. But are there stories left untold, or does everyone just look 10 years older?

We don't know, we'll find out. We'll find out. But in that documentary, I mean, I think it was interesting having the perspective of actual veterans whose experiences were referenced. If Robert Shaw's performance was not good, I think I would find this character somewhat offensive. But like, and I do think that, you know,

there are probably cases to be made, but I just think that like he plays Quint with such bravado for sure, but like with so much humanity, it is, for what it is, still a very thoughtful performance. And I think it's tragic how his story ends, but knowing that Hooper was originally supposed to die, I don't necessarily hate that he goes,

because that just feels like a pretty broad, like, Moby Dick style reference, right, of like, he will die pursuing this thing that he has projected the trauma of his entire life on to. Because it's not about the money for him. It's about, and again, it gets into this masculinity thing. It's about accomplishing this thing that you can't really get your hands, because for him it's not about the money, it's not really about protecting people. So what is it about? It's all inside of him what he's, it's about the sharks that allegedly ate 600 of his friends. That's what it's about. And it's a trauma shark for him. And he's consumed by the trauma shark.

I don't know, I just think story-wise, dramaturgically, it makes sense. And I think the performance is unbelievably great. Yeah, I did not realize that he was a Shakespearean actor from much of his career. Yeah, I mean, realize that he was like a Shakespearean actor from much of his career. Yeah, I mean, he was like a fancy guy. Yeah, he he was like Oscar and Golden Globe nominated and like, he played such a wide berth of characters. There is this I'll just glaze over it. I watched a like short doc about the the rivalry between Richard Dreyfuss and Robert Shaw because there

was a big onset beef between the two of them, which everyone involved in the movie has confirmed. I think it is kind of funny and sweet that Roy Scheider, they were like, oh, he was pretty chill and he mainly went swimming and sometimes he'd go to the gym. So Roy Scheider was minding his own business, but Richard Dreyfuss and Robert Shaw, I mean, kind of weirdly two sides of the same coin where Robert Shaw was a later stage actor. He wasn't that old, but he was very like,

generationally there was a big difference between the two of them where Robert Shaw was famously a very, very hard drinker. He eventually died in his early 50s due to complications from drinking. And Richard Dreyfuss was kind of like a coked out young star who had a big ego and Robert Shaw wasn't having a bar of it. He like, it seems like they, you know,

in a very like competitive, actory way had issues with how the other approached acting, how the others approached substance use. Robert Shaw would, you know, say pretty, it sounds like Robert Shaw was the antagonist. But again, in this whole thing where it's like a masculinity story inside of a masculinity story where, you know, Richard Dreyfuss seemed to dislike Robert Shaw so much that it made his performance better. Like that whole little thing where he does the little thing with his, he's like, meh,

like making faces behind Quince back. Those are mainly improvised because he didn't like Robert Shaw. And like when he's mumbling about, oh, if I had to do this anymore, I would be so pissed. That's because he didn't like Robert Shaw. So when he's being a little brat, it's because he's actually being a little brat

because daddy is not being nice to him. It's a masculinity soup. Like no one is right in this situation. But it does seem like, you know, for what it's worth, and then we don't need to talk about Richard Dreyfuss any further, but with regards to this, as time went on, like Richard Dreyfuss was like, I'm, you know, it ended with like mutual respect and he like reached out afterwards and was like, I think he was kind of like what happens in Vegas

stays in Vegas as a way of being like, I treat you like shit on Martha's Vineyard, but we're cool, right? And I think Richard Dreyfuss was like, yes. So all's well that ends well there. Unfortunately, Robert Shaw, he passed in 78. He died not too long after the making of this movie, but I just, getting back to Quint, I don't really know, I mean, there are so many factors that you're like, that I feel like would normally ping for me that just don't really know. I mean, there are so many factors that you're like,

that I feel like would normally ping for me that just don't. It was almost one of those instances where I forgot to do my job as one of the hosts of the Bechtel cast, because I was just like- It's that good. I was just so immersed in the story and the characters. So yeah, I don't even think I wrote anything down about Quint other than something I already mentioned,

which is the class war between Quint and Hooper. And again, Hooper surviving at the end was more of a logistical production choice that they made retroactively rather than something that was written in the script, because otherwise that would have pretty nasty implications of like, well yeah, the rich, educated scientist gets to survive and the working class fisherman has to die. But that isn't a narrative choice. It was just because everything kept going wrong with the production. Right. So it's fine. Yeah, I do think it would be more narratively satisfying if Hooper also

went down because then it's not like endorsing one philosophy over the other. But knowing that it wasn't intended that way is fine. And Quint also like makes his feelings about Hooper Very clear in a way that I think as the audience we don't disagree with even if we like Hooper Like there's that line where he's like you wealthy college boys can't admit when you're wrong He does I think you know in keeping with the generational stuff There's like one the scene where, where Brody said goodbye to Ellen, he's kind of just like shouting random massages of stuff in the background and you're like,

all right, whatever. Okay, he's kind of just like, or what? He's singing about Spanish ladies or something. Let's go swimming with bow-legged women. You're like, okay, here's this woman with bow-legged women. And for some reason, I am not mad at him about that. You get in the cage, you get in the water, sharks in the water.

He's just too, like, I would let him be a misogynist to me because I like him. And after nine years, should I be saying that on the show? Well, we contain multitudes, listeners. Yeah. And the fact that like he and again, I understand that it's very over the top, but that like, ultimately, he is his like, demise is very related to the fact that he has all of this unprocessed trauma. And right, that is, and I don't mean to say like, and that's the story of every veteran,

obviously, they're not a monolith. But that is a very common experience for veterans that have seen horrific things and are not given the tools to process them. And it's like, especially the further back you go in history, it's thought to be unmasculine and unacceptable to have those traumas manifest in your life. And so what we see with Quint, however cartoonish it can be, is he's not able to get past this, which totally makes sense,

but it's like not socially acceptable for him to, I mean, he has to be drunk and in the middle of the ocean to even talk about it. And that's really sad. Right, yeah. I honestly found it surprising that the Brody character was imbued with a fear of the water and a fear of drowning and all that stuff

because I think that was added for the movie, it was not in the book. I mean, it makes for good characterization in the sense that someone who has to go out onto the water to complete a task is afraid of the water. That's just like good storytelling. But for a man to have a phobia, that's not masculine. So for a movie from the 70s to imbue a character

who's a man with a fear that he has to face and granted this fear does not really manifest in any significant way because it sort of it goes away mostly and he's just like oh I'm on the boat now and I'm actually okay. So it doesn't have a huge impact on the story, but I found it kind of interesting, I guess, that a man was allowed to be afraid of something and then he communicated that to the people around him. Yeah, I agree. Again, low bar, but I thought that was interesting.

I don't think I have really much else to say. Oh, this movie was edited by a woman. Yes. Verna Fields, who. I believe a repeat Spielberg collaborator, am I wrong? I don't. Oh, she worked with Peter Bogdanovich a fair amount. Yeah, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg earlier.

So she did What's Up Doc, which is Bogdanovich, American Graffiti, Jaws, Paper Moon, handful of others. I mean, that's pretty great. Oh, and then I was like, why does, I was like, did they just drop her? No, she was hired by Universal as an executive consultant. So we love to see that. We love to see that she did great work and then got promoted. That never happens to women. In the 70s? Unheard of. Shout out to

Verna Fields. Which also, I mean, I don't know, I really appreciated. Again, in a movie that takes place quite a bit on the beach, I feel like I'm not really getting a lot of male gaze out of it. Outside of that opening sequence, which obviously it's the creature from the Black Lagoon shot, you can't get around it. But in the other beach sequences, I feel like in subsequent beach horror, there is almost always some male gazey shots of like, oh no, what if this hottie got eaten? But for the most part, it is just like people on the beach. And it presented very matter of factly in a way that just feels like unusual. I don't know.

That reminds me of a documentary I watched to prepare for this episode. It's a Shudder original documentary called Sharksploitation. I really enjoyed it. And it's basically about all the movies that fall under the sharksploitation subgenre. And if you're thinking, oh yeah, of course, like Jaws and Sharknado and the Meg and a handful of others,

there are hundreds and hundreds of mostly B movies, mostly horrible, bad movies, but basically Jaws started this subgenre. Not to say that Hollywood had not been making like horror creature feature movies about monsters lurking in the sea or lurking in lagoons before this because they had been making movies like this

for decades prior to Jaws. But again, none of them had the cultural impact that Jaws had. It's so wild, but none of them were good like this for decades prior to Jaws, but again, none of them had the cultural impact that Jaws had. It's so wild. But none of them were good like this? Like, yeah, none of them were good? For sure. And so, yeah, it just examines this subgenre and talks about the tropes that start to emerge in these shark movies, one of them being the exploitation of especially women's bodies. Some of these movies have rather gratuitous nudity, revel in violence against women, stuff like that. But overall, yeah, I thought it was a very interesting documentary that I would recommend. Yeah, that's pretty much all I had.

Yeah, the last thing I wanted to say, that's pretty much all I had. Yeah, the last thing I wanted to say, it's more of a fun fact, but I just thought it was interesting just in terms of how much this movie changed marketing and how marketing narratives work for art in general, which is like, Steven Spielberg's career alone is like a fascinating look at that. But this book, I don't know how this book came across Steven Spielberg's desk. I think it was mentioned at some point,

but I forget in one of the documentaries I watched. But that Jaws was like, oh, it's this bestselling book. Everyone loves it. Well, guess what? You know why it was a bestselling book? Because Steven Spielberg and Universal bought hundreds and hundreds of copies of it to send other places to people to be like,

hey, what do we think of this book? Because they just wanted to make a movie of it. I just, I mean, that I feel like it's a victimless crime. We love to see a book selling copies. Me personally, someone should do that to my book. Oh my God, I would be so scandalized if what Should people buy raw dog? Oh, they should buy hundreds of copies and just send and be like should we make a movie about this? I would be like that's so

Controversial you shouldn't do that. That's dishonest but that I just thought that was like funny that they You know part of the whole idea of like this best-selling book everyone's talking about it That may not necessarily have been true. It sold a lot of copies, but who was really talking about it? I just think that was funny. Does it pass the Bungle Test? No. That's a big hard no. But on our nipple scale, where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I mean, again, women largely are not included in the movie. It is a very white movie. It's a movie that asks us to root for a cop.

So, you know, I just don't know. But the movie does have some interesting things to say about masculinity, question mark? I'm gonna give it two nipples. Okay, that sounds great. Because for, well I agree with everything you're saying and therefore could not in good conscience rank it higher. And maybe I'm ranking it a little higher

than I normally would because it's just such a damn good movie. I know. I do think that we have two strong performances from women in this movie. They're fleeting. They're fleeting. But what you do see is good.

But their performances are great. I really like Ellen. I wish that we had more of her. But I like seeing a full, even though you don't get to spend much time with her, you feel like you know her, which I think is very rare in terms of like, quote unquote, mom or wife characters.

They're written in this very one dimensional way. And this character is kind of written in a one dimensional way, but I think like her ability as an actor, even though it was suggested that it was a Nepo pick because she was married to a producer, fuck you, Lorraine Gary is amazing in this movie. And so if it is nepo, I don't care. And then Leif Yaro's performance, another fleeting but really impactful performance.

She is a legendary stage actor and teacher who just passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 91. And also shout out to Chrissy who is definitely underappreciated by the film. But again, a great performance from a stunt actor. And stunt actors are so rarely treated with the respect that they deserve. We were just talking about that on the Blue Crush crush episode another movie that takes place at the beach. Yeah so I shout out to Susan Backline who also passed away somewhat recently. The women we do

meet I really appreciate their at least their performances if not the writing itself and I think mainly these two nipples are going towards this movie's ability to explore masculinity and dick measuring contest across the class spectrum. It is a very white movie. It is, I mean, as you said, but I do think it's interesting having these three very different class perspectives.

And again, the copaganda of it all, you can't excuse it, but ultimately you do have like someone from the lower class, middle class and upper class on this boat. And they're all working towards the same goal and they have to communicate with each other and it doesn't really work. And it's just, it feels like kind of a reality show nightmare experiment. Like these three men from different world. I think it's just, it feels like kind of a reality show nightmare experiment.

Like these three men from different world. I think it's fascinating. I think it's like all of the characters are treated with respect by the writing and the plot. And I like it to nipples and I'm gonna give them two. I guess I'm gonna give one to Lorraine Gary and I'm gonna give one to Lee Fierro because they made a meal of what they were given.

I agree. I think I'll go down to one and a half. If I'm rating it on a scale of, is this movie really good? It gets top marks. Rating it on a scale of is this movie really good it gets top marks Rating it on the nipple scale the copaganda thing is what's getting me because like the like gentle tender like loving father Character sure who were supposed to be rooting for horror the whole time is a cop and it is effective

copaganda and that's the sneakiest worst kind of propaganda. Yeah. So I resent that but as we keep saying I like the Brody character and that's why it's so effective. So I just feel tricked by the movie and yet it's a really good movie and I'm gonna watch it every summer. Yeah. So I just feel tricked by the movie and yet it's a really good movie and I'm gonna watch it every summer. So one and a half nipples and I'll give them to Bruce the shark, the mechanical shark. Also fun that they ended up naming the Finding Nemo shark after this shark. Cute, shark fans will know. Anyways, so that's our Jaws episode, folks. I really love watching this movie.

I'm a simple person. I see Jaws, I say, hey, I like that movie. I'm smiling. So here's to you, listener. We're pouring out a glass of Jaws Pinot Grigio to you. And with that, thank you for listening. This is pretty similar if you're not a member of our Patreon, aka Matreon. These are episodes that are mainly just Caitlin and myself having fun talking about a movie

that you very often will request. So if you enjoyed the vibe of this, a little bit looser, a little silly, join our matriarch, it's $5 a month and it gets you access to two new episodes every month on a theme that you will generally choose and sometimes we will impose our will and we will choose it and Casper is going wild right now. He's being so cute.

He's being a real cuddler. He's saying hi, mother, and I was saying hi, Casper. But yeah, and then access to almost 200 back episodes. It sounds like you're saying we're gonna need a bigger matri on subscription. We're gonna need a bigger matri on subscription. Just kidding, it'll always be $5, but we could just use more people having it.

Well, that's what I mean, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and also, we haven't officially announced at the time of this recording, but maybe if you checked our link tree. We're going on tour. We're going on tour, and we're going to the Midwest, and you'll see a few links already

to some shows that we're doing at the end of August slash early September. Be on the lookout for a more official announcement and more news about that tour. But just giving a little shark fin, if you will. A little dun dun. To tease dun dun us heading to Chicago. We love you so much.

Thank you for listening. And we will be back next week with another brand new episode. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan

with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.bechtelcast. So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969

when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond. And left a woman behind to drown. Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy's on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the You vs You podcast, we welcome Polo Molina, music manager to the stars. From Will.i.am and the Black Eyed Peas, Ty Dolla $y, YG and Fergie. Here's a sneak peek. Are you so hard on yourself? That's the way I was raised. And the people that were hard on me are not here no more. So I'm part of myself. You don't make me cry.

Listen to you versus you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bob Crawford, host of American History Hotline, a different type of podcast. You, the listener, ask the questions. Did George Washington really cut down a cherry tree? Were JFK and Marilyn Monroe having an affair? And I find the answers.

I'm so glad you asked me this question. This is such a ridiculous story. You can listen to American History Hotline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us, on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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