The Bechdel Cast - Jesus Christ Superstar (1973)

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

It's Jamie's birthday episode and we're covering Jesus Christ Superstar (1973)! Support families in Gaza - linktr.ee/caitlindurante | Donate to PCRF - www.pcrf.net | Support the BDS Movement - https://bdsmovement.netSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The patriarchy's effing vast, start changing it with the Becdellcast. Jamie and Caitlin here, we're going on tour. And we're not going on tour just anywhere. We're going on tour in the Midwest and soon covering the Star Wars prequels. We're going to just cover all three at once. You know, it's going to be fine. There's been so much talk about the prequels over the years. Often on podcasts we really like, often by writers we really like, but never from an intersectional feminist perspective.

And so we're going on this tour to quickly realize why that is. So you can see us discuss all three prequels in one show. In fabulous outfits. In wonderful cosplay, you don't want to miss this. We will be in Indianapolis for Let's Fest on Saturday, August 30th for a matinee show. And then Jamie, you have a solo show that evening that can't be missed. Called Jamie Loftus and her pet rock solve the world's problems, in which that will be happen. I can't wait. Then the very next day, we are going to Chicago. You asked, we listened. We will be at

the Den Theater on August 31st. That show is going to start around 7-715 p.m. It's an evening show, a sexy little evening show. We're so excited to go to Chicago, and the Den Theater is so beautiful, so Chicagoans do not miss it. And then... Then we will be in Madison, Wisconsin, on Thursday, September 4th. I believe that's a 7.30 show and we're so excited to be in Madison. And then finally we will be ending the tour in Minneapolis, Minnesota at the Dudley Riggs Theater on Sunday, September 7th. That is another evening show. It starts at 7 o'clock. So if you have been one of the many people asking us to come to your town for the last 10 years, we're doing it. We would love to see you. The shows are super fun. As we've said, if you're a matron,

Specifically, if you're a member of our Patreon, aka Matrion, you get a free little gift at the merch table when you come to say hi after the show. It's a blast. It's going to be a super good time. We love seeing you. You can get all tickets at Linktree slash Bechdelcast. Exquise me. We'll see you there. Enjoy the episode. Happy birthday, Jamie. Thank you. Wow. I'm feeling so Christ-like today.

I'm feeling like I'm going to, like, do unto others. That's kind of the vibe for today. I know that that's... He didn't say that, right? I don't know. That's just the golden rule, which... I feel like, you know, I'm sure he'd agree. Yeah.

I'm sure he wouldn't be, like, nor. Nor do not do unto others. Okay, welcome to my birthday. Welcome to my birthday. Happy to be here. I'm happy to be here too. I think maybe I will actually succeed in going to Natsbury Farm on my birthday this year. We'll see. I failed last year, but maybe this is the year. Can I invite myself? Yeah, because you're a season pass holder, right? Yeah. Yeah. If we are successful and going, yeah, we should go with a damn group. Because I haven't been in three years, I think. It's my new favorite theme park. It's so fun. It's so. fun because the theming is just like sure yeah why not I walk around and you're like hmm old-timey ghost why not of course I love it I love it welcome okay so this is my main feed birthday episode so if this is your first episode wild point of entry but for what it's worth welcome to the Bechtelcast my name's Jamie it's my birthday my name is Caitlin it's not my birthday brutal and that must be hard for you today

Yeah, what if I judas you because I'm resentful that it's not my birthday? Well, then you would be low-key, the coolest character in the movie, Jesus Christ, Superstar, it's really... I will say, Jesus Christ Superstar, a very flawed movie will be talking about it a lot today. But I feel like the movie's basically like, say what you will about Judas, but he kind of is like the best. I feel like this movie is like pro-judice. I mean, this might be blaspheming. Judas had a point. I was rooting for Judas much more than I was rooting for Jesus in the context of this movie.

Yes. Yes. No, like literally, okay, there's so much. Okay. Jesus Christ Superstar. Oh, okay. This is the Bechal cast. This is our intersectional feminist movie podcast, which there actually is a lot to talk about

because we're sort of talking about Christianity and Judaism writ large. There's so much to talk about today. So if you don't know what the Bechal test, is look it up you know what i'm not your i'm not your fucking mom it's my birthday yeah okay um does the bible pass the vexels test i would wager not but let's google it oh wow let's google it oh that's actually a really good annoying question i bet it kind of does but it's a long book hopefully i would say the bible is not a feminist text certainly not certainly not okay i'm not the first oh okay the Bible barely passes the Bechdel test.

So it gets a barely pass. To be fair, this is Google AI that you can't turn off. So it could be wildly incorrect and just melted. An Ice Cube, while the book of Ruth is often cited as a clear example, other books like Exodus, Mark, and Luke are also mentioned as containing conversations between women about something other than a man. However, many argue that these instances are sparse

and often involve women talking to men. or the topic of conversation indirectly relates to men. So I would say maybe it doesn't pass. We've had this, how many times have we had this conversation where it's like, well, they don't name a man, but a man is implied. But we're talking about the ramifications of a man's actions. So, yeah, right at the top, does the Bible pass the Baxel test?

Maybe technically, but spiritually no. Spiritually no, I would say. Spiritually no. And if that's a hot take to you, I don't know. Turn the show off. Turn the show off. I don't know what to tell you. Okay, let's just get into it because this is a text.

This is a text. There is so much going on with Jesus Christ Superstar that I almost regret choosing it. But I do think this is like my last, I think, because I was going through the list of all of our episodes from the last decade. And I think that this is the last movie that like really heavily imprinted on me as a kid that we haven't covered. So it's necessary. But I'm curious, Caitlin, what is your history with Jesus Christ Superstar? well I saw this movie like many during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005 and that's interesting that it made the cut honestly I feel like this movie doesn't have a huge footprint outside of like Sunday school I know but somehow it made the list I think it was just referenced enough that I was like I guess I should see it I mean and Norman Jewison's a big director I get it yeah so I took it upon myself to watch watch it. And Jamie, I know it's your birthday, so I want to be kind and gentle. But I would say this

movie appeals to absolutely zero of my sensibilities. And I don't like it at all. It's definitely not your kind of movie. It unfortunately is my exact kind of movie. There's just extraneous dance numbers. It doesn't really make sense. It's loud. It's hard to follow. The songs are not catchy they're just very repetitive I don't like Jesus's voice I just yeah I that I that I thoroughly agree with that Ted Neely I just like I don't know I mean I know

that that's me 5D chessing being like they made Jesus unlikable so that you would root for Judas but I do think it's a skill issue unfortunately and it's too bad because it seems like Ted Neely is like from what I could learn about him he seems like a lovely person whatever whatever which you can't say for everyone involved because let's not forget this was baby andrew lloyd weber's little like money project and he did in fact just steal the batman

theme this movie is so fun okay can i can i get into my history of me yes please this movie is i'm not going to say it's good although i don't think it's bad i think it is deeply deeply deeply flawed. I think, and I can be talked out of this. I do think that this movie and this musical in general has its heart in the right place. I think that it was, there are many elements of it that are subversive in a good way and many elements of it that are subversive in a counterproductive and sometimes just straight up confusing way. But I saw this movie for the first time when I was, I think in fifth grade, because I feel like we've talked about our respective histories. with religion but like my family was all over the place like I was baptized Catholic but then we

were kind of like no it's too dark in those churches and so we stopped and I went to for a good chunk of my youth except for when we were briefly into wickedism we went to like a I think technically Protestant but a congregational church which is basically the shorthand of saying it was the only church in my city that was friendly to queer people. And so it was, I mean, I'll say like, I feel lucky that I don't have a ton of like religious trauma or baggage in my life because my church was like relatively loosey-goosey and friendly, which you can tell because they showed this to me and instead of like walking us through the crucifixion story, they literally turned this movie on. And they're like, so, um, that is

basically what happened. And we're all like, oh, oh. So this. This musical is very important to me. It also was a big musical for my mom. It was her, like, vacuuming music for all of my childhood. So we, like, we were in Andrew Lloyd-Weber household. We listened to a lot of Phantom, a lot of JC superstar. We skipped over cats. For some reason, that was where the line was drawn.

Okay. But, yeah, I deeply loved this movie. And Carl Anderson as Judas was one of the biggest, most formative crushes of my life. Okay. I was obsessed with him, and I was really sad. He died in 2002, which was shortly after I learned he existed. It really, so whatever great I was in, in 2001, I was like, wow, he's my crush. We're going to make it work, even though he's 70 or whatever, even though he could be my pepaw.

We're going to make it work. And then he died. But I still think it's like one of my, like, Carly Anderson is. Judas and there's a lot of stuff going on here but like it's still one of my favorite performances to watch I think ever which is very nostalgia fueled but it's also like he's so good I just think he's so amazing a lot of this is Carl Anderson fueled and then you go back to the original Broadway cast and Judas I mean it was also Ted Neely in the original Broadway cast which again mistake but you had Benvereen as the original Judas so like no matter who like Judas

is the best character and I feel like the musical knows that because he's Jesus has exactly one good song and that's a problem in Jesus Christ Superstar he has one good song what do you classify as his one good song so I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's it's a skip for me but fans of Jesus Christ Superstar do like oh I'm gonna say this so wrong because because also I would say that Jesus Christ Superstar is probably like I did research for this to see what the interpretation is. But for a long time, I was just like, this is a documentary. And everything I know about the last days of Jesus' life, like it's in this documentary that I watched, Gassimini,

the song where he's like, what should I die? That song. Oh, that's the name of the garden, I think, where they have the last supper. yeah so that song i get why people like it i still am like it's i just ted neely's voice i find so grating unfortunately but like carl anderson's got heaven he's got the opener and the closer of the movie so you know i don't know if there's anyone who has ever argued that this movie is overtly anti-judice but i'm like judas has the first and the last song and they're both doing laps around any of jesus songs mary magdalen both of her songs are better than jesus any of jesus

his songs. The villains have better, I mean, the villains usually have better songs, but like, you're going to tell me Jesus has a better song than King Herod, and where do we even start with that? Okay. King Herod's song is my favorite. It is so, like, you're like, is it homophobic? Probably. But is it iconic? Definitely. Like, I don't understand, like, I don't know what they were doing there. And the best part is Joshua Mistel, who is Zero Mistel's son, so Broadway Nepal baby. I don't know who those people are. go on okay let me take well it is actually important because joshua mustel is the child of zero mistel who both originated tevia in fiddler on the roof on broadway and also originated um max bialestock or no he played

max bialestock in the original melbrooks producers so he is both an iconic jewish actor and he was like blacklisted in the 50s like he's an interesting guy and josh mistell is his son And whatever, he's the Nepo baby. That's who plays Herod? King Herod, yeah. And Joshua Mistal is straight. But, but, I don't know. It was so weird.

I was like watching, because he's still alive and has given interviews about it. And many times he's been asked like, what was that all about? And he, to his credit, is like, I'm not really sure. I don't know. I don't know. And I cannot speak on behalf of the queer community, but I like it I don't know I don't know I like it

it's so good and like would I remove that number I can't say that I would I look forward to it every time but like why is it why I mean why is anything like anything in this movie that's an excellent question why are the like high priests

dressed the way they are with a big hats so that okay we're just getting right into it that is I was aware of this but I was looking into like because I assumed that this movie was considered like blasphemous by just about everybody when it came out because I was like Jesus isn't supposed to be groovy or whatever and it wasn't as controversial as I thought it would be it was a little more well like openly embraced but there were elements of it and this gets into the fact that

we'll talk about this that this movie was shot mostly in Palestine and majority in the West Bank. But the Israeli government has its fingerprints all over it in terms of the permits required to shoot the movie. They also, I believe, provided some of the funding for the production. It seems that way, yes. Offered a rebate. And then the director was like, wow, thank you so much Israel for doing that for us. And hey, other Hollywood directors, you should go shoot your film in Israel and like just like this glowing endorsement of this illegal settler colonial ethno state which is particularly ridiculous when you consider the majority of the movie was filmed in the fucking West Bank like it's yeah that's I mean we'll talk about

the production of this movie because it's deeply fucked and in in some coverage of this movie to this day the word Palestine will not show up in like where was this movie shot because there's a lot of, and this is, you know, out of the control of the production at this point, because it was 50 years ago, but there are still Zionist publications or Zionist sympathizing publications that will say this movie was shot in Israel with, you know, completely no, just nothing, no, no acknowledgement of where this movie actually was shot and what the history is, which, of course, considering what this movie is ostensibly about is pretty fucking ridiculous, where occupation is referenced, constant. Yes. So we'll get into that. But, oh, I forgot where I was going with that originally. But, but, but yeah, I mean, this, this musical is, I mean, deeply, deeply, deeply a product of its time. And I, yeah, there was, I'm sorry, it was a very difficult one to prep for. You know, obviously, I mean, hopefully if you're a listener of this show, you're well aware of this already. But, you know, any, of this movie or production's ties with Israel or any pro-Israel rhetoric surrounding this movie is obviously horseshit. I, yeah, before prepping for this, I feel like it's a two-prong thing, or it was in my prep where it was like trying to get to the bottom of how is this movie produced

and how is it produced like you're saying, Caitlin, like in cooperation and actually directly endorsed with Israel. Oh, that was what I was going to say earlier is that later on, Israel kind of disavowed this movie, which, who fucking cares? But I will say the thing that, and again, like listeners, let me know if I'm off base here, but one of the things in this movie that does genuinely seem to be anti-Semitic is that costume choice you were talking about with the high priests. Right.

Because those are Jewish high priests that, and again, I am not an expert on literally any element of this, because I watched it as a documentary as a kid, but that there are a lot of Jewish communities that were sort of turned, like, what's the word I'm looking for? Monocultured. Characterized, maybe. Exactly. Like, the characters of Caiaphas and Anas have been criticized as being overtly. anti-Semitic and from what I can tell that that does appear to definitely be true where they were just like oh every Jewish community is the same and we're going to you know just sort of create these

vague villains who are based on historical people but for the for the movie is just like it really leans into I think a pretty anti-Semitic place so it's there's just there's a lot it's a lot it's a lot yeah so will you tell me the story of Jesus, gave them. I sure will. I know so much about it. Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back for the recap. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change.

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and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So here's the recap. sounds like I'm talking about the events of this famous Jesus story as if I don't really know what I'm talking about or who any of these people are or if it sounds like I've never read the Bible or been to a Christian church. People are going to be so shocked that we've never

read the Bible. How have we not read the Bible? I tried to do a little bit of background in like how Lucy Goosey is this adaptation. I'll do my best. But yeah, ultimately, now I, of us are religious so this is going to be a challenge yes and also again the movie's kind of hard to follow especially in the sense that characters will just suddenly show up on screen and they're not really introduced and you don't know who they are in the context of the rest of the narrative and you're just like I think who is that I think that this movie that's I think that that's like a part of this movie's agenda is that it is assumed that everyone knows who everyone in this is and like if you are not familiar with the Bible, this movie is going to be hard to feel.

Right. It just genuinely is. I never watched it before with anything other than just like a glaze over my eyes. And we'll talk about it. But I was kind of struck with like how overtly political, like a good chunk of the lyrics in this musical are. Yes. And that's the other thing. There is no spoken dialogue.

Every word is sung. And that's just for some reason hard for my brain. to pay attention to? Well, it's like it's operatic. And I think that if I'm if I'm not mistaken, I think that JC Superstar started as like a concept album. Yes. So yeah, so it's basically written as an opera.

Yeah, I kind of like that. But I also feel like it's easier for, and maybe this is like our generation problem. But it's like, I feel like when everything is sung, there are so many like large chunks of this movie that I was like, oh, I guess I never really listened to what they were saying because you're just like do do do do do do do do do like you're like whatever but then you listen to it you're like oh oh oh okay i've been watching this my whole life and i was

like i just didn't really listen to what simon was saying i don't even know who simon is i got you i got you okay all right here's the story we are in a desert in palestine it's sort of two thousand years ago but it's also sort of contemporary it's the 70s it's like it's it's I think that the it's supposed to be a bunch of hippies staging a play right because a bus shows up yeah and people jump off the bus and get into like costume slash character for the movie that we're about to watch among them is Jesus Christ ever heard of him yeah played by Ted Neely and uh a white Jesus which well it's that's like one of the i think most obviously wrong things with this like two oh well i should have said in our um prep that in two days from now my mom and i are going

to see cynthia erivo as jesus at the hollywood bowl whoa yeah i was really excited because she's gonna it's gonna be the first time that i'll be like consider jesus and jesus christ superstar but Cynthia Areva is playing Jesus and Adam Lambert is playing Judas but for the two most I think influential productions of this there is a white Jesus and a black Judas so in the original productions Ted Neely and Benverine and this production it's Ted Neely and Carl Anderson this has been I think like corrected over time I think the last production of this that made a cultural wave was when John Legend played Jesus, like six or seven years ago. So this is like a habit that has been corrected over time, but why Jesus? White Jesus. Yes, yes, indeed. Also, I read that Ted Neely was like the Jesus understudy in the stage musical, but he did,

like he had other parts within the stage production and then was cast as Jesus in the film. But either way, still involved in both. Bless his heart. Wish he wasn't. Wish he wasn't. He's so irritating. Okay. So we meet the cast as actors, I guess.

Yeah. They're like community theater. I don't know. I don't know. And then we meet Judas, played by Carl Anderson, who sings a song about Jesus. Ah! Okay.

The outfit is great. I used to really want the orange tie-dye Judas fit. Okay. Yeah. Because it's both stylish and comfortable. He sings heaven on their minds, which is, I think, for my money, the best song in the musical. To me, it's the best song in the musical.

But again, a very political song. Right. That I think, like, pretty quickly gets us into Judas's head in an interesting way, where he's just like, Jesus. you're doing too much Jesus that's his whole thing he's like I feel like maybe you've lost sight of the cause

and the message that you've been preaching Jesus and I think maybe you're a false Messiah and J.C. Superstar the Jesus of this production is so bitchy Jesus is a huge bitch in this one and I think it's funny

my favorite scene when I was well one of my favorite scenes that I would like to laugh out with my cousins is when Jesus, I mean, I know that this is like also in the Bible, but that when he goes to the temple and he's like, ah, he hates it. Trashing the place. He's acting like he like, it's like a Wendy's franchise and he's like, this sucks. I hate it. Ah, get it.

Stop. Everyone's having fun. Stop. I know that that's not the point of the scene. But I feel like that's how he plays it where he's like, ah, he's just like freaking out at the mall. Yes. Yes.

It's funny. Okay, anyways, Judas is like Jesus is doing too much. Meanwhile, there are Roman soldiers trooping around because... In crop tops, mind you, in little tank tops. Tank tops. Because, of course, the Roman Empire has occupied this land. Which, ironically, this movie does not shy away from talking about while actively making deals with Israel to make the movie happen. well yeah yeah right exactly so then we cut to jesus and his disciples singing what's the buzz

tell me what's happening oh my god so funny all the cuts in this movie are hard cuts because you just never know what you're going to cut to and i think the apostles really come off as real doofuses in this movie they seem like goofy little guys that are their fan boys which i guess is kind of like no offense is kind of what the apostles were where like simon is kind of the street team uh you know there you could you could but what's the buzz is again one of the many songs in this musical that i i both have a lot of affection for and is like straight up annoying it's an annoying a lot of those songs in jesus christ superstar are straight up annoying i'm glad you said that and i celebrate that i all of like most of the things that are like

can't be about this movie even when they're bad I love and what's the buzz is an annoying song that will get stuck in your head for the rest of your life unfortunately yes yeah anyway so we're we're seeing that and then we also meet mary magdalen played by yvonne eleman oh right because she was the one person who was actually the main role on broadway i think yes yes and then ted neely was the understudy you're totally right yeah so mary is there tending to jesus as she does throughout the entire movie, patting his forehead with a damp cloth, et cetera. She's a bit of a foot freak in this interpretation. And then Judas shows up to be like, Jesus, why are you hanging out with Mary?

She's a sex worker and she doesn't really fit in with your vibe and your crowd. And Jesus is like, bitch, who are you to judge anyone? Exactly. And he was right to say it. And he was right to say it. Judas, you know, Judas is a problematic fave for a character. He's a swerf, maybe. He is, Judith, I'm so glad you said that Judas is a swerf because it's true.

It's true. It's true. And he needs to get over himself. He had, like, I just, and then with Jesus and Judas, I do think that you're supposed to want to be like, at certain points, like, kiss. Like, there are, especially with the betrayal, I mean, I guess they do kiss. They do kiss. They kind of famously kiss.

And that happened in the Bible. I had to look it up. but that you know oh no yeah that there's been wars over that kid it's like it's a very famous it's like titanic followed by this yeah by judas kissing jesus before yeah yeah followed closely by the end of shrek one where shrek and fionicis i know and some people disagree so people think shrek just beats out jesus and judas by just a little bit but you know interpret as you will exactly so judas is carrying on and then jesus is like like, I'm sorry, but he's whining

constantly. He's a bitch. He's bitchy. He's like, you will not find me arguing this. He's like, no one even cares if I come or go. He's so like, he's like, he's pouting. He's frowny. He's like, no one listens to be later when he's crowded by people who are poor. I mean, I do think there's a larger interpretation that I is, it's so weird because I feel like there is like some nuance in the way that it's written that Ted Neely just does not telegraph at all because when he's like give me my space like he has so many like annoying little he's just leave me alone

leave me alone i have a lot to say about that scene we'll get there but we'll get there yes anyway he's like he's whining and his disciples are like how can you even say that jesus we love you then we cut to caiaphas a jewish high priest the one with the wild hat And then he has a, he has a little buddy. What's his name, Annis? Yes. Okay. And their whole appeal, like, you know, musically is high voice, low voice.

And as a kid for me, I was like, this is cartoon. This is giving cartoon. Yeah. Their songs in particular, I for sure never listened to the lyrics because I was just like, ha ha, big and small. I had to pay such hard attention. And here's what I have deduced that they're singing about. Yeah.

And this, this first, their first song was added for, the movie. Oh, okay. I did read that one of their songs was an addition. Believe it's this one, yeah. Okay. So basically what they're singing about is they don't like that Jesus is going around and calling himself a king and something has to be done about him. Yeah. Then we cut back to Jesus and Mary. Now Mary is putting some ointment and myr on him. and maybe frankincense is involved, I don't know, but she's singing, everything's all right, everything's fine. I forget the melody of that.

Everything's all right, yes. Yeah, unfortunately. This is more of a classic Bactal cast discussion, but like it is unfortunate that like such a historically compelling character as Mary Magdalene is reduced to a handful of like, Jesus is so awesome kind of songs. I love him. But I think the Avon-Eleman performance,

is like really good. Her second song in particular, I don't know how to love him. I was obsessed with that song. I have like a very strong memory of walking around my neighborhood, thinking of like a kid in my neighborhood I had a crush on, like singing that song to me. I don't know how to love Corey.

Corey was my Jesus at the time. Brave. And I didn't know how to love Corey. He certainly didn't know how to love me. He didn't know I existed. okay um anyway so judas is there also and he's like what the hell jesus why did you spend money on that expensive murr when we could have used it to feed the poor and jesus is basically like relax guy there's not much we can do for poor people we should just appreciate the nice things we have and i'm like wait a minute

Which is like a very broad, yeah, I'm curious for Bible heads out there, how oversimplified is this? Because it's like, I feel like what I kept losing in the plot, or like what was not clearly communicated. For those of us that aren't Bible heads, I know that Jesus knew he was going to die soon, like this whole time he knows he's about to die. But I feel like that is not very clearly telegraphed. In ways that, like, I think in this scene, he is being callous. But also, he seems needlessly callous. And, like, sometimes he's being like, I don't have time. I don't have enough time in my life to fix this gigantic systemic problem.

But that was never clearly communicated because I think it's assumed that we know that already. But he just comes off looking like, ugh, I don't know. I don't know. You're like, Jesus. It just seems like he doesn't care about poor people. Which is like, canonically not true about him. I'm pretty sure. Exactly.

So it's weird. Yeah. It's bizarre. Then the next day, Caiaphas and a council of priests gather to discuss Jesus how he's dangerous, because they think the Romans will kill all of the Jews because of Jesus's antics. So he has to die for the sake of everyone else. And I think it's like a play by, I mean, based on that first song between, because I, I, I, I, I, really had to like listen to the lyrics of the caiaphas songs because it's so cartoony

and distracting but i'm pretty sure that and again historically i've seen this has been disputed i don't i don't really know and i know that caiaphas and anna's are the characters that are most commonly accused of being more overtly anti-semitic as well as the way that the crowds are depicted towards the end of the movie which we'll get to because i think the way that Pontchus Pilate is characterized in this movie is like extremely generous, which we'll get to. And that is another common criticism of this movie. But I'm pretty sure in their first song, Caiaphas is both saying what he says to the council or whatever you call a group of priests. I don't know where he's like, Jesus is dangerous and we have to kill him.

But I think he's also doing that with the knowledge that like if he's the one that makes that call, it will be good for him politically. sure yeah in any case jesus meanwhile and his followers are traveling through the desert and they're singing oh samah hey sanar zanah i don't know what they're saying they love his ass they love his they're like yes jesus say more and then in a different musical number his disciples are singing christ you know i love you oh my god oh my god that's saw that dance number is unhinged okay so that's simon that's so i had to check this because again like all of this movie is just like a blur in my brain where i know all the words but what do any of them mean so simon is one of the apostles which i guess i never really connected before

he's from what i can gather kind of the street team of the apostles where he's leading the flash mobs etc he's doing the flashmob he's like the social media director of you know christian sort of I guess but so I think that the implication is that like Simon has been away spreading the word of Jesus and is bringing all of these people back

as followers of Jesus and and again I'm like I know that there's a listener being like wrong Jamie but I really really try I just need you to know that I tried I tried I think my understanding of and I think this is like a criticism that I have of the movie where Simon is

coming back and says in that song, like he is implying that Jesus's presence could be a huge difference in liberating the Jews from the Romans. And Jesus is sort of like, no, I'm going to die in three days. But Simon says, yeah, Christ, what word do you need to convince you that you've made it and you're easily as strong as the filth from Rome who rape our country and who have terrorized our people for so long, keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of hate at Rome, you will rise to a greater power, we will win ourselves a home. So a lot of loaded language there, but I think like the core of what he's saying is that Jesus's presence could be a liberatory force against an oppressive regime. And Jesus, like, with regularity is just sort of like,

no. Shrug. Yeah, you're like, well, what's the point of you then? Jesus, but I feel like that's not, the musical seems to feel like Simon is wrong and the musical seems to feel like any, like, and that, I mean, Judas famously is wrong about certain things, but that like Judas's perspective of like, I don't know, like I just feel like any like larger liberation that is proposed in this movie is dismissed as being naive. again I'm like I guess that that's I don't know if that's more of a criticism of this musical's interpretation or the Bible itself I don't know but I know that it I it bothers me and it sucks to see any character that proposes leveraging someone's celebrity and influence to liberate people as being like well no we're not going to do that as ridiculous you know yeah yeah i was barely following any of that well it's also because yeah they're doing like jazz hands throughout this like pretty serious political lyrics um so i had to it sucks because like when you're reading about this musical you also have to like vet the source considerably because you're like this could be any number of like overtly religious interpretations of it and i was like is there and i was able to find a few

places that I felt like were credible that were able to help me through this because because also I mean I know that this comes up in the conversation around this movie all the time like early to mid-70s was I weirdly I still can't figure out why but like God and Jesus musicals people were like let's do it more because this came out the same year as God's bell yeah there were a bunch of movies with like strong religious overtones and like specifically Christian overtones in this era also like Monty Python's

life of Brian came out sometime around here and if anyone can help me understand why because I that is not something I've seen it obviously presented as like wow this was happening a lot I'm like surely if it was happening that many times and like massively successful but like what was going I don't know I also think that this movie

is like there's a few moments where it's trying to make comment on the Vietnam War in different places, it's like, it's trying to do it. I just don't understand why this, like, 1973 was like Jesus musical year, but it was, I don't know. And I'm not, I don't, honestly, Godspell is not of my business. I don't know. I've never seen it. Don't know it.

Yeah, neither. I know that Victor Garber plays Jesus, so that's fun. Victor of Titanic fame. Anyway. But it's somehow a musical that I find even more annoying than this one. Okay. So. All right. So then we meet Roman official Pontius Pilot. Oh, brother. And he has heard about this Jesus fellow. And I think at this point, he doesn't really know what to make of him. I think, again, the songs are hard to pay attention to. Ponce's pilot is straight up like emo boy. Like, it's so bizarre to me. And I was, this was something I attempted to look into. It's like, is this at all, is this a normal way to portray Pontius Pilot?

as sort of this, because I feel like throughout the movie, Pontius Pilate, who is like a Roman leader, I think that you could say like at the time, he would have been the most powerful person in the movie in an immediate sense. But they make it out to be, and I guess that this is not super unusual, and there's a lot of Western interpretations of Pontch's Pilate that sort of fall along these lines as like that he was, and again, I don't agree with this, but I also don't know the Bible, that he was portrayed as capitulating to whatever would make him most popular versus actually feeling strongly that Jesus needed to be killed. But again, the way that it's like telegraphed in this adaptation to

me makes him seem tortured and sympathetic in a way that I find really, really off-putting. This is like, and I didn't know this still today, but like that that's another common criticism of the movie is that like Pontch's pilot I feel like is the kind of like just such an obvious villain that I don't really I don't have a particular interest as a viewer and like well did he feel conflicted about murdering people like who gives a fuck but I feel like this movie kind of gives a fuck right because he's an agent of the occupation the Roman occupation he is the occupation right so like that's the thing is like he is the occupation and so if I'm understanding the hierarchy here, Pontius Pilate is like a Roman leader. He is the occupation. He has these various

minions. He sends Jesus off to King Herod because King Herod, and again, please correct me if I wrong, but like King Herod, I think politically was considered King of the Jews at that time, which is why his whole song is making fun of Jesus for saying he's King of the Jews because he's like, I'm King of the Jews when I think historically he may not have even been Jewish but he was like an enforcer of the occupation and then you have Caiaphas and Annas who are Jewish

priests who are trying to appease the Roman Empire but like yeah Pontius Pilate is the most powerful person in the movie so I don't understand why I mean I understand why because that happens in populist movie making all the time it's why you have fucking

like Darth Vader narratives and like people love to be like well this like oppressive fascist like what's going on in his head how did he get there but i don't know because this musical is such a mess i just the performance is fine you know my my hat off to barry denin but it's just like he literally looks like the leader of like he looks like gerard way i'm like what are you doing he looks like he's like my chemical romancing his way through this pontius pilot performance where he's like oh it's so hard to have so much power and be like, I have to kill people.

Like, I don't know. That interpretation, yeah, just I don't like it. I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah, that becomes abundantly clear in a scene toward the end of the movie. Right, where he like leans down to Jesus. He's like, I really don't want to do this. But the people are asking, so.

Whatever. He was in Titanic. Did you know that? Did you know that? Barry Dennan was in Titanic? No. Who did he play? Praying man. Okay.

Wait, let me actually. I didn't look up a picture because I bet we will recognize him as praying man. Yeah, please send it to me. Oh my God. What? Oh my God. Wait, he's kind of iconic. Remember him?

Oh yeah. And they're like, can you move a little faster through that valley there? Because he's like saying something, something through the shadow of the valley of death and blah blah blah whoa i was excited to give that fact to you and then i forgot to look up what they meant by that he's literally wow he's praying man he's praying man unlike pontius pilot yeah he was not moving through that valley because he killed jesus anyways what range so true so true okay so then we're at a marketplace in jerusalem merchants are selling stuff

and Jesus at the mall Jesus at the mall He's pissed on He throws a fit at the mall Because the idea is that This is like a group of heathens Who are shaking their asses And doing drugs and selling weapons

And stuff like that Which feels, I mean And this is just me My interpretation of the vibes of this scene It feels a little bit tongue and cheek Because it's so like overtly sexy And it's like a story within a story

where you're like, it's so wild that these community theater actors are shaking their asses right now. But yeah, no, Jesus pitches a fit at the mall. And you're like, okay, he's being, Jesus is being a swarf now. But he's also kind of being anti-capitalist. Which is Jesus's whole thing. So I was like, why weren't you like that before when you were talking to Judas? Who knows? But he trashes the market.

He pitches a fit at the mall. He really does. And then Jesus goes to what I believe. leave is a leper colony. Yes. This community of people who are disabled and dealing with disease and they're hoping that Jesus

can heal them and he tries to help but the sheer number of people is overwhelming and he's like, there are too many of you, leave me alone. And again, it's like, I think that I'm, I'm whatever, there's a lot of things that are wrong

here where it's just like, again this, the way that this narrative is just overall, from Jesus' perspective, dismissive of poverty and dismissive of the underclass in general, like anyone vulnerable who's like, that's Jesus' whole thing, but he seems to not be interested in this movie, which is why I do think it's like it's a, it's partially just not a good performance. Sorry, Ted Neely. I feel like the most generous interpretation I could get to, but it's like he's not a good enough actor. or really singer to pull it off is like the concept of like he is one person and like cannot

possibly fix something this massive in the amount of time like it's like I do think that there is like this element that you can feel in certain numbers I feel like it comes across in that song Githemone where it's like his what he wants to accomplish is too massive for one person which but the ways that that's demonstrated makes them look like a real asshole like yeah yeah it's it's bizarre but then we cut to that night while jesus is sleeping mary magdalen sings about how she loves jesus but she doesn't know how best to love him and i like i do the part of the song that made me laugh this time around was that she was like and if he asked me to be his girlfriend i'd be like no I'd like slay I'd panic I'd say no yeah and good for her yeah um same I would

it's too much pressure I don't want to be Jesus's girlfriend a lot of pressure yeah oh my god tabloids yes okay so then the Batman theme starts playing do no no no no no Judas who can say why And there was a whole lawsuit around this. There was, of course, a lawsuit because there had to be. Because also this concept album came out in the early 70s, which was so close to the Batman show being on TV that it would have been like I was writing a musical about Jesus. And then this theme from SpongeBob just started playing. Like, it was so, oh, Andrew Lloyd Webber. What a fucking loser.

Very bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. So then Judas goes to Caiaphas and his minions to be like, we got to stop Jesus. Da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. And Caiapis is like, okay, we'll pay you to tell us where we can find Jesus. So Judas accepts pieces of silver and says that they can find him on Thursday night in a garden that I don't know how to say what it's called. I think it's Gisemite? Yep.

Okay. Then we cut to the last supper. Jesus and his 12 apostles break bread and drink wine. And then Jesus sings about a suspicion that one of the apostles will betray him. And he knows that it's Judas. Real housewives of the Garden of Gassimini. He starts, he once again, can't help himself. he has to pitch a fit.

I mean, to be fair, it's his last night on Earth, let him cook. But like, also none of his friends stay up with him on the last night of his life, which is rude. Which is rude. Yeah. They should have had a slumber party where they stay up all night. They should have watched a movie. Mm-hmm.

Oh, well. Anyway, so Jesus knows that Judas is betraying him. So he casts Judas away. And I love the part where he runs away in the middle of a bunch of like sheep who were flocking away. you think it's us it's uh it's uh and it makes you think maybe he's one of the sheep whoa yeah yeah i remember my sunday school teacher pointing that out and but like mm-hmm good we're we're this is a good use of our time yeah exactly okay so then jesus sings to god asking why god wants jesus to die i think this song is interesting i don't i don't again i'm not familiar with

the biblical parallel. I don't like the song, but I like what the song is doing. I feel like this movie does to varying degrees of, I think this is one of the movies more successful moments at attempting to humanize Jesus and be like, well, if you had to die for nebulous reasons tomorrow, you would also be having a bad night. I'm like, that's so true. That's so true. Yeah. I like the way this song builds. Yeah. I'm excited to see Cynthia Arriva sing that song. Because Ted Neil is so annoying. I'm like, I just can't root for him. But, but yes, I like, I like the premise of that song. Yeah. And then he's like, fine, I'll die. Fine, I'll do it. God, you bitch. He's like, dad, what? Stop. Stop. Stop killing me. And I guess God off screen is like,

sorry sorry sorry son you'll thank me someday and well just like every other movie this is a story about fathers and sons i mean the bible really is the ultimate fathers and sons right like enough enough already okay so the next morning judas is back and he gives jesus a little kiss and jesus is like stop ah stop even that jesus oh he's so he's so he's so he's so He's so annoying. He's so messy where he's like, you have to go do this because God said you have like, because I think that that's a part of it that also isn't telegraphed well in the movie,

is that like this is all like something that Jesus knows is going to happen because he was told it's going to happen. And it's almost like Judas is doomed to do this in some way. But then whenever he's doing it, Jesus is like, you suck. It's just weird. Right. And so also because I didn't know this,

I've never read the Bible. I don't know the details of this story, aside from the very basics of, like, Judas betrays Jesus and then he's crucified. Yeah. I didn't know why this kiss happened. Oh, yeah. And the movie does not make it clear. So, no, I kind of like that the movie is just like, what do you think? Yeah, they just kissed.

Do you like it? So. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I like it, whatever. Also, when you do, like, a search online for, like, Judas. betraying Jesus because I was like trying to find this story yeah as like told by the Bible to see like how it compares to the movie adaptation when you look at the like images from this search most of the images of this are of Judas kissing Jesus and it's like yeah you know arguably homoerotic and I'm I don't know why people don't talk about that more I think that I do think people do talk about it I

I'm just not paying attention. No, I just, I definitely, I don't know, I was aware of the kid. But I also feel like the kiss is like, I'm trying to think of another like piece of media where it's reproduced. But the like, well, it's actually, it's actually reproduced in succession at some point. Whoa. Yeah, Kendall kisses his father on the cheek before selling him out. So if you ever see two aggressively straight men doing a kiss on the cheek, something is about to go down. but in this movie i would say that this is not at all an aggressively straight movie it's uh no it's

it's i mean there's a lot of problems with it but i wouldn't say that it's rigid heterosexuality is is one of them but yeah they kiss they kiss because judas had told caiaphas that the person thereafter is the one who judas will kiss he's like the way that you'll know who you need to arrest is the person I'm going to kiss like that was his little signal okay judas and so that's why he kisses Jesus it's so weird because he could have been like the person whose hand I shake he could have done the person I'm going to yeah or I'm going to give an apple to something but it's also like it's like I I like it okay let me in defense of the Bible go on because I do believe this story is mostly made up right I feel like the kiss is

good symbol because and I think that this is well telegraphed in Carl Anderson's good performance is that like he loves Jesus and that like he's also like knows that he's doing this horrible thing and saying goodbye at the same time so I feel like yeah a kiss makes sense because it's like if it was a if it was something less intimate or personal I feel like it would almost be like oh did he and Jesus would say this Did you ever even care about me? Did you, because that's like half of his songs. I'm like, does anyone even like me?

I can't believe it. And meanwhile, everyone's obsessed with him. He's just like a cheerleader. But I liked, and I also just like Carl Anderson kissing someone because then I can be like, what if I, what if it was me? Mm-hmm. So, pro kiss. I think they should have kissed on the lips, but.

I think they should have gone to second base. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so then the Romans capture Jesus and his apostles and bring them to Caiaphas, who's like, how dare you say you're the son of God? Then they take Jesus to Pontius Pilate, who's very condescending? And he's like, who even are you? Jesus Christ, I've never heard of you. You don't seem like a king at all. And Jesus regularly, and I'm sure there's a biblical significance, but I just, I just.

like it's funny where they're like so do you think you're a king do you think you're king of the Jews and he's like I don't know you're the one who said that you you not me I know you are but what am I like you're like okay okay that was a silly one I'm sure that happens in the Bible but I was like whatever whatever yeah these queens okay so then Pontius Pilate kind of passes Jesus off to King Herod who says well well well well if it isn't Jesus Christ, son of God, prove it, walk on water, and turn water into wine. But Jesus refuses, so he's taken away and imprisoned in a cave. And we will, and we reference this already, but that number is just like, needs to be seen to be believed.

And the costumes and the makeup in that scene, really quite something. really just yeah who who I was just like whose idea and why and I I haven't been able to find someone who can give a satisfactory answer but it happens and that's really kind of the I mean you cut you you're you cut to Herod once or twice at other points in the movie including at the crucifixion yeah but that's really his only part yeah I don't think we've seen him in character at least up until this point no yeah you see him in a t-shirt when he, you see him come out of the bus. Yeah, right.

And he's like floofing his hair a bit. Yeah. Anyway, so then we cut to Judas and he suddenly feels very guilty about this whole thing. So consumed with remorse, Judas hangs himself. Then it's Jesus's trial. Spoiler alert, it does not go well. It does not go well. No.

Caiaphas and the other people who are against Jesus sing about how he needs to be crucified. and Pontius Pilate is like well I don't think we need to kill him but if it makes you feel better I'll flog him I'm like a and I'm just side eyeing this whole narrative thirdly of like this again

the most powerful colonizer in the movie is like I don't want to you made me you made me do it which I do think is another and again listeners correct me if I'm wrong but another fairly anti-Semitic narrative that surrounds this story that is not challenging

in this work at all, which is, like, quote, unquote, the Jews killed Jesus. Right. And that is basically what, how Pontius Pilate is written and how the crowd responds, like, is very not pushing against that interpretation at all. I've never seen Passion of the Christ, but I remember that being a lot of the discourse around that movie when it came out. Well, consider the author. Exactly.

Yeah, one of the most anti-Semitic celebrities of all time. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen it either. I, oh wait, are you talking about the Scorsese one or the Mel Moore one? Yeah, the Scorsese one, not the Mel Gibson one. Okay. The Scorsese one is the last temptation of Christ. And that's Willem DeFoe Jesus. Yes. Right. I have seen that one. Any good? I don't remember. I really, yeah. Once I saw Jesus Christ Superstar, I was like, I get it. I don't, you know, I don't think that there's going to be a more fun way to tell this story. So I don't think I'm going to try to watch the others. But yeah, anyways, I, I, And honestly, I hadn't thought about that in a long time and have seen this so many times that I didn't even think about it. But when I was going back through it, I was like, oh, yeah, that is like pretty straightforwardly adapted without question. Yes. So Jesus is publicly flogged.

Mary Magdalene watches on in horror. But the angry mob still wants to crucify Jesus. Then we get a big musical number. Jesus Christ Superstar. oh my god and i don't really know what's happening here is it the i love it i don't know okay here's my interpretation i don't know if i'm way off because this is being intercut with jesus like dragging the cross through the desert and then him being crucified which i think is way better than harping on the intense violence of the crucifixion which i think is like what every other adaptation really and and so much

Christian imagery. Like, I'm God, the crucifax in my grandma's house, you're like, enough. What the fuck? I don't know why there's so much, like, reveling in the violence of that. But, yeah, the movie, at least, this movie does not do that. They're like, what if we did the literal opposite of that? And intercut a sexy disco number. So questions things.

I have thoughts about this. I'm excited to hear your thoughts. My interpretation is that, like, this is sort of a flash forward after he has, like, like ascended to heaven because Judas is also there. Everyone is in like white clothes. It sort of implies that Judas went to heaven and you're like, okay, great. I didn't even think about that. Yeah.

But with a bunch of sexy angels. So that was my interpretation. I don't really know. I agree with you. I think that like it's, I don't know, to me I just sort of, it feels like both a way to circumvent the harping on the extreme violence that is. is like the most common way to depict the crucifixion and it's like just sort of stating the thesis of the movie where in a way that I think is very like sympathetic to Judas again where hold on

let me just pull up the the lyrics where it's like Judas's character and I think it is like supposed to be him you know saying the same thing he did at the beginning but with the knowledge of what happens in the story where he's like saying why why why why was it like that um let me find I don't know. It just feels very like silly in 70s in some ways where he's like, why didn't you come to Earth in the 70s?

That's basically the thesis of the song. It's like, why did you why did you go? Why did you choose this time and this place where, which in a way feels very overly optimistic because I don't know, in the way that I think that a lot of the way

that this production in terms of its like casting and its politics are saying, like, assume that we now live in a less prejudiced and hateful world, which, of course, we do not. But I think that the production takes a more optimistic bent and just gets silly where, did you mean to die like that? Was that a mistake? Or did you know your messy death would be a record breaker?

That lyric is nuts. like you can't say that you can't say that so yeah I think it's like the movie's attempt to honestly like I before preparing for this I knew the words but I never thought about them because once again you're just thinking about Judas's

outfit because you're like whoa he's wearing a full white suit with like fringe everywhere he's surrounded by sexy angels and he's just like Jesus that was so weird why did you do that that was wild and then it's over and then they get well they get back in the bus they get back on the bus right so after this but you don't see jesus get back on the bus and what the hell's that about well because he is in heaven he died did they really kill ted neely that would be wild if in the world of the play they're like oops we killed ted neely sad um yeah i guess it's like symbolic yeah i'm sure it is jesus isn't there um but yeah they get on the bus and they drive off the end bye bye

So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back to discuss. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a box. clog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

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And we're back. Where to start? I know we've covered a lot of the smaller stuff throughout the recap. But, yeah, is there anything that is standing out to you? I mean, I think that, you know, we've talked a little bit about how this movie was shot in Palestine and was shot in cooperation. And like you said, and like you said, was partially funded by the Israeli government in a way that it's like extremely pernicious and horrible. Yeah. And in a way that I think is, I guess I am surprised has not been brought up more.

in the way for a musical that is still very much around that the narratives that exist around its most popular adaptation are never discussed like this is all stuff that I've learned in the last year or so and I mean I have a whole spiel let's let's get into it just about I mean so the movie again like doesn't shy away from acknowledging that the Romans were occupying Palestine yeah at the time these events were taking place. But what it does shy away from is Palestine. Yeah. And that Jesus

was Palestinian. And like Jesus was a brown Palestinian Arab, which again this movie and most media, like mainstream media still. It depicts Jesus very much subscribes to this idea that

Jesus was a white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. And this movie is now exception there is more diversity in the cast than I would have expected right but it's pointed like I think what's interesting is there is diversity in this movie and I and I like that in the framing device it's like this is a group of actors in the 70s question mark just making a deal with the Israeli government to put on a play and you're like well that's fucking horrible um especially if you consider what the plight of the Palestinian people was in the 1970s, where, you know, there is an ongoing

occupation. And I think that a lot of, I mean, Norman Jewison also, his other most famous movie is Fiddler on the Roof, which the specifically the theatrical adaptation, but I've never seen it. But my understanding is the theatrical adaptation of it takes a far more Zionist bent than the stage musical did. And so Norman Jewison, while he was a Christian, director, which I think a lot of people get confused about. Because of his last name. Where it's like, yeah, I guess if my name was Jamie Mormon, people would make assumptions. But he was a Christian director.

But in his two most famous movies, either took a Zionist bent or in the case of Jesus Christ Superstar literally was in cooperation and being funded by Zionists. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's. So much of what we still see spoken about now, and this feels particularly horrific when Gaza is being literally starved before our eyes as we record this to see even a movie that has a small part in uplifting this false narrative, while also, like you're saying, Caitlin, saying the right things and being anti-occupation. but it's like it's only anti-occupation to a point because it's like it's anti-occupation but unwilling to acknowledge Palestinians in any way shape or form right like you have judas singing lyrics something to the effect of listen jesus do you care for your race we are occupied have you forgotten how put down we are but also this is coming from the person

that we are meant to think is the villain or that like you know in this narrative, Judas is maybe not this movie. Judas is definitely the, yeah, that's the thing. I think that like that, again, I don't know how Judas is portrayed in the Bible because I just am not going to read it. But that like Judas is, it's so frustrating

because it's like Judas's perspective, I think is like made out by the movie to seem valid at different points. But then isn't at other points. And I think Simon is very similar where like Simon is I think effectively making the argument of like leverage your power and your influence and all of these followers we have won you to help dismantle this oppressive force. And Jesus is sort of like, that's not possible.

I can't do that. And I don't know. Like it's just, it's so muddy. But I do think it's interesting that the message is overtly stated repeatedly. But like you're saying, by characters who are ultimately either villainous or misguided, even if they love Jesus, where it seems like ultimately the Jesus shrug is like the takeaway, which is really, really frustrating. Yeah, you would think this movie would be way more anti-occupation or that Jesus would be

way more outspoken about the occupation, but it kind of doesn't really happen. And again, in the source text, I don't know, you know, exactly what, is said or isn't. But it's like Jesus, even in the most like popular, like straight up white Christian nationalist interpretation is a champion of the underclass. Yeah. People living in poverty, people who are dealing with illness people who are sick or poor, who are, who are sex workers. Like everyone knows this about Jesus. The politically disenfranchised. Exactly. And that is not the vibes this Jesus is giving off. Not at all. That's those traits are more ascribed. minus the like pro sex work ideology those traits are ascribed to judas yeah way more so yeah i mean

i feel like what comes across clearly to me about like what he does at the end when he uh famously tells everyone where jesus is that was bad that was bad he should not have done that i wish he had that was and and he was bad for that but at the beginning i i feel like judas is real flaw and i again it's like a smarter musical maybe could have like expressed these ideas better is that like so much of where Judas is coming from is he wants his people to be liberated but he's afraid and he's afraid of like what the occupying force is going to do if they are too loud like that's the whole point of the first song of like he wants to be liberated but he's afraid that they're being they're being so loud that it's counterproductive which is like a flawed mindset right like

that's not a revolutionary mindset at all but then it's like it's not like jesus seems to have that agenda at all right where i think like of the perspectives presented in the movie i'm like kind of most with simon because simon like i feel like simon is the only person who seems to have a plan and uh jesus says no to the plan but there was a plan yeah i I don't know it's I don't know what to make of

so much of this it's a mess and it's also like you know written by with all due respect I mean I Andrew Lloyd Weber

you know he's he was politically a nightmare right like Andrew Lloyd Weber is a political fucking

trash fire and like is deeply hated by most of his fans yeah I mean truly like I think Andrew Louis Weber is a great example

of like Like someone whose work is like storied and lauded and all of his fans are like, well, don't listen to what he says. Like because he is like a right wing freak who like grew up rich and is just like he's horrible. So is he the person who I trust, and he wrote this when he was 22. And so you're like, do I trust a wealthy white 22 year old who grew up in a conservative household to give me anything here? no fair i mean i don't know how musicals work really he wrote the music right but like not the book and lyrics because that was tim rice right that's tim rice yeah and then the screenplay for this movie was co-written by director norman jewison and melvin bragg yeah so it's a lot of white men

making this yeah i the thing i want to say about judas even though and jamie you and i agree that he's the best character and he's the most fun to watch and the hands of his actor and we keep going with nice compliments towards carl anderson and we're kind of rooting for him most of the time um culturally judas is not thought of favorably by no most christians and so i think yeah sorry you heard it here first well um so i think casting a black actor in that role. Absolutely. It's racist.

Yes. Particularly, I think, like, and this is done on stage, it's done in the movie, the image of the hanging I think is very upsetting because that is a casting choice that is made throughout

at least the early history. And again, that's like, that has nothing to do with the quality of Benverine or Carl Anderson's performances. As we said, they're doing laps around Jesus every time but it's yeah the optics of it are very very ugly yes especially because

he is the most prominent black actor in the movie so there is no like well there are other black characters that have a lot of other different perspectives like that's not true there are other black actors but most of them appear in the background or in dance sequences or i mean there are black and brown actors like you're saying it is not a completely whitewashed movie but the parts of it that are whitewashed are in i mean are jesus like the most famously poorly incorrectly whitewashed person ever this movie does nothing to which and again like knowing the composer's politics i'm not shocked to hear and it's just like he's he's lucky that the likes of ben verena and carl andersen would would touch it but i agree i mean it's like there's not that i'm not saying i want this but when you were

saying that where you're like, well, clearly he's wrong. I was like, what if Judas got like the wickedification of Judas Ascariate? You know, like, I'd watch him. Judas wicked? Because there's like Judas wicked moments. Mm-hmm. Because I, yeah, like we're saying, like this movie is not unsympathetic to Judas's plight.

Mm-hmm. But ultimately they're like at the end of the day, you know, the, okay, someone, which is weird because Stephen Schwartz, who wrote Wicked. also wrote Godspell. Oh. That was his first musical. So Stephen Schwartz, well, actually not you. Someone, can someone give me the wickedification of Judas?

I'd watch it. Yes, I'd watch it. But yeah, ultimately, it's the casting, like casting a black actor repeatedly, particularly opposite a white Jesus is like, be fucking serious. Be serious. Yeah. Director Norman Jewison was asked by the. Vatican Press why he cast a black actor for Judas and he said that Carl Anderson quote

tested along with many others in London and as always happens the film really told us what to do the test was so successful that there really wasn't any doubt in my mind at all that he was the most talented actor to play the role unquote and I believe that he's way better than most of the actress in the movie he's very talented but you do have to consider and like and there should be far more casting choices and hiring practices and everything based on merit however when there is a harmful trope that already exists of casting black and brown actors to play villains you got to be really careful with your casting choices so that's i i agree and like i think that like and again it's like we're two white people

having this discussion. I feel like it's like if Carl Anderson uncontested, I mean you can't see the Benverine performance. You can only hear it. It's also great. But like Carl Anderson I feel like is the definitive Judas in this musical and it's like then cast

other black actors in other roles. Because like speaking to this like long criticism of this movie, if that is the only black actor you're giving a prominent role to in the movie you know norman jewison's sort of explanation is like well that's on you that's your fault um i mean we're saying that the actor who plays simon larry marshall is a black actor

but i but i would also qualify that with not to the degree that judas is wrong he is similarly dismissed as being naive i think it's like interesting that you know both judas and simon are the two apostles who are saying the most overtly political things they're played by black actors and they are both either villainized or dismissed right and that said the larry marshal performance oh boy fun he's he's dancing his little heart out he was in the full monte on broadway wow that's awesome yeah um he's also only prominently featured in one scene to the point where to be fair that's most characters in this movie that's true but to the point where at the beginning of this episode where I was like who's simon again like I kind of don't know

that character I think theoretically you're supposed to know who it is because it's but that's a part of the problem of like it's assumed that ever that I mean it further shows that this movie is made specifically for a western audience or for a like overtly Christian or Jewish audience because if you are not familiar with the story, it does not do anything to clue you in on what's going on. But I do, yeah, so it's, while Simon is played by a black actor, I would say like, yeah, like Simon is not a prominent character, even if he's a memorable, you know, it's a memorable number.

Yeah. It's the best dance number in the movie. It's the most intense dance number in the movie. I will say King Harrod's song is a really fun dance number. Now that you bring him up. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. I mean, we'll get to Mary Magdalene.

But because we're kind of on this topic, I would say the queer coding of Pontius Pilate and King Herod. Pontius Pilate, I feel like for me, Pontius Pilot is open to interpretation. I definitely think more, I guess I didn't really think of it as queer coding as much as I thought of it. It was just like, I don't know. I thought that Pontius Pilot for me was more complicated, like politically, where it's like he's made to be way more sympathetic than makes sense i guess but i mean king herod what the hell what the hell i i don't know i i would be curious what uh what our listeners think because i do think that there is a read of this that is like this is a beloved dance number this is like uh i think been very embraced for the

can't be number that it seems to want to be. But the fact that there is heavy queer coding for seemingly no reason at all is, you know, unquestionable. I mean, I think the reason is that King Herod is a villain to Jesus. So they're just going to do the thing that a lot of media does. Mary Magdalene. I love Yvonne Elliman. She's so talented. She's so wonderful. She also had like a number of hits in, I think, like, the 70s and 80s. She was like Mrs. Adult Contemporary Radio. I guess it's like, unfortunately, there's not a ton to say about Mary Magdalene as it pertains to this. I genuinely don't know how much more we get of Mary Magdalene's story, although we could talk about the Da Vinci Code, which is a documentary about Mary Magdalene.

Yes, feminist text, the Da Vinci Code. But, yeah, I mean, she's, here, it's, I will say, like, this is a character. who is canonically a sex worker who is presented as a human right like is presented as a human who is loved and can be loved and unfortunately that is not something that you frequently see particularly the further back in history you go so that's good the yeah unfortunately she is really only left to be like i love jesus that's like it most of the scenes she's in, she's tending to Jesus, and her whole character is just sort of like there to take care. My boyfriend's going to be killed. No. And I'm sure that's a source material

problem. I don't think that they were, they, uh, I don't, I don't think that they were, they, uh, that Mary Nactylum was a feminist hero who was reduced. But again, it's like, clearly the agenda of this musical is to be subversive and to, add things and I think like in the case of people like Judas that is done where we do get a clearer look into his inner life and specifically his politics with Mary Magdalene again I think it's just like kind of a classic sexist thing that is done where it's like she her existence is political and Jesus's love and acceptance for her is political but how does she feel about anything Exactly, exactly. And they don't have an interest in it, which is like, well, if you look at the number of men that wrote and composed and directed and adapted, like there's just not any, it doesn't seem like there's anyone with any meaningful interest in how she would feel, which is a bummer because it's like a bummer.

But like, because there's space for that here. And it like very cleanly fits into what it seems like the agenda of. of this is, but they just are unable to consider her. Like, she's treated like almost a person, but then- So close. So close. And yet they cannot conceive of her having any feeling about something that is not her boyfriend's. Yeah.

And washing her boyfriend's feet. Come on, gross. Rubbing myr all over him. I think she did canonically do that, but also yucky. No, there's a scene where she's doing. that they're saying no i mean like in the bible i think she's i think she's a she's a she's a she's a foot freak in the bible as well oh i see come on i mean whatever i'm not kink shaming but like tell me something else about her that's the thing people with a foot kink they contain multitudes

although she's evan element is a very fun uh fun gal i really i think she's uh she's got a fun story of like how she got involved and then became a popular disco artist after this came out so at least we got yvonne elem in disco i don't know all of this this movie is also just like so terminally 70s in every single way that it's like incomprehensible you're like sometimes you're just like what the why would you do that everyone's wearing bell bottoms everyone's wearing bell bottoms like it's just like I mean yeah I've this is I'm not the first or last to say this but an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical but it's just like this musical doesn't have two brain cells to rub together it's it's like it's ridiculous which is why I fell in love with it I guess

but yeah there sometimes you're like there there are some actually like oh this is a huge problem with this musical and like let's trace it to why that might be and then there's some things about this musical that you're like, I don't fucking know. I don't think he knows. This guy wrote cats. Like, who fucking knows? Wow. I mean, also worth mentioning that if you're, if you're considering like the main three players of this movie being Jesus, Mary, and Judas, two of those characters are played by actors of color. Yvonne Elliman is mixed. She's Japanese, Chinese, and Irish. But when you consider, again, a black actor playing the villain of the story and a woman

of color being given basically no characterization. No story. It's the illusion of diversity, but it's not meaningful. Right. Which is especially frustrating given like the caliber of, yeah, and I'm just going to keep dragging Ted Neely. But like given the caliber of performance from Carl Anderson and Yvonne element compared to Ted Neely. You're like, it's just ridiculous. Yeah. I think that like there's there's so much

about this movie that just like it is such again that the product of its time that's like a huge product of its time issue I think that I don't know. I'm curious how this like new stage adaptation is going to work subvert or not subvert. I really really really really hope that they that this production acknowledges this story. roots in Palestine specifically. I don't feel hopeful because of how negligent most institutions are in doing so. But also in like the optics that you're talking about. I don't know. I don't know. There's a part of me that's like this musical is best left in the past. But that's the problem with musicals is that like if there is a single bop in it, it will never go away.

ever and there are unfortunately bops at this and so these this is uh this is subjective okay listen sorry to be a bitch on your birthday but i okay yeah you're being a bitch on my birthday i yeah so no there's some there's some catchy tunes i suppose yeah but yeah i mean another thing that is not handled well is the representation of disability in the movie the scene where Jesus goes to the leper colony, the people want him to heal them. The characters there, they are, of course, sick and disabled. They are shown as being in pain and in desperate need of health care, which should be just a basic human right.

Of course, in an occupation like this, it wouldn't be. And also, I mean, to be fair, 2,000 years in medicine about it. Yeah, of course. It's not like that we can take them to the hospital. Exactly. But they're isolated and they're cast out of society. So this is all very understandable. However, I would argue that there is another layer that the movie adds to this

as far as like portraying these people as being creepy and grotesque. I agree. In the way a lot of media portrays disabled people. Yes, I agree. And I think it's like yet another example of like the moments, the things that. and the there is like a limit to what this production is willing to subvert exactly and it's like very telling what it's willing to suffer yeah and and and that feel that's from what I understand is a just straight ahead the way that that group is always portrayed in and and this movie does

nothing to and also to add the shitty Ted Neely performance him being like ew go away get away from me i blame him for that but it's still fucking awful yeah the other kind of similar thing is there's a very very small part like blink and you'd miss it kind of thing but there's this part of the movie where it's during the song where jesus is asking god about why he wants jesus to die and the part where the one where he goes what should i die there's a part I wouldn't say that before I die. Yeah, please do. There's a part where we see a few, like, flashes of still images.

They're, like, illustrations and paintings that are kind of flashing on screen as he's singing. And most of these illustrations are of Jesus being crucified, but there are a few quick images, and I'm curious if you spotted this, Jamie, there are a few quick images of, like, onlookers witnessing the crucifixion. that resemble the very anti-Semitic way that Jewish people would be depicted in like Nazi and other anti-Jewish propaganda. I did not catch that. But I do feel like that ties into what we were talking about earlier,

about how little this movie pushes back on villainizing Jewish people in general and blaming them for Jesus' death while. like what this musical is also doing and like the limits to its empathy is that it was like everyday Jewish people that forced the occupying force to do this which is like if you you know think about it for a microsecond it's fucking ridiculous but I didn't notice that they also put a visual to it that's horrific it's literally three quick images maybe two two or three they flash on screen for less than a second each so it's again like if you're not looking at the screen at that exact moment you won't catch it but because yeah I know the sequence you're talking about but

yeah it's like and again it's like these are images that exist but why are you choosing to show them like you can there there's a way to show again it's like what I I blinked and I missed I confess because otherwise it's like it seems like it's trying to say like this you know all of the emphasis on the violence that you see in popular art which that fucking sucks because I thought that that idea was kind of effective where like that's a familiar image but like choosing to cut to those anti-Semitic depictions of this like centuries long anti-Semitic propagation is like what you know again what are we doing what is the agenda of this movie and no one can answer this no one can answer this question and so maybe we

should put it in the trash but I and yet I'm seeing it in two nights What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Cynthia Arrivo, can you fix this? And the answer is, I don't think so. I don't think it's fixable. Yeah. But. Okay, everybody, quick update from the future.

Ooh. I saw Jesus Christ Superstar with my mommy at the Hollywood Bowl last week. And ooh, I have thoughts. It was amazing, but also I have thoughts. As you've been hearing throughout this entire episode, the first thing I wanted to mention that we talk about throughout the course of the episode, but I just wanted to address with a little bit more specificity is talking to the specific moment that this movie was produced in mostly the West Bank, but with the cooperation and

approval of the Israeli government. Obviously, we talk about that throughout the episode, but specifically I wanted to make note of the fact that particularly in Gaza, that occupation was not just ongoing, going back to the Nakhba in 1948. but also as of 1967, there was an escalation of violence that led to Gaza being more aggressively occupied than ever before by Israel in ways that are directly traced to right now. So I just want to take every opportunity to not talk about Palestine as if this started two years ago and that it is a particularly ugly time for this production to have taken place. place in conjunction with the Israeli government because Israel was actively and loudly

escalating the occupation. And so any act of cooperation with that is horrific. As far as the Cynthia Christ Superstar production goes. Yes. Tell me about it. So it will surprise no one to hear that Cynthia Arrivo superstar is incredible. Like Ted Neely found dead in a ditch. like she she's I mean she's like one of the greatest performers living I'm pretty sure she's so

amazing her her rendition of Gassimony was like I'd never heard the song before like not to be over dramatic but like it's whatever the bull fits 17,000 people everyone was crying there was a like standing ovation it was like low key religious experience like it was really really she she's incredible. Weirdly, and I wasn't expecting this because I know next to nothing about this man. Adam Lambert is Judas really good. He totally made the part his own. I just like I was really taken aback at how awesome he was. I really, really liked him. Roel Esparsa, who is a iconic Broadway actor played pilot. And here's where I'm going to be. controversial and say, I did not like his pilot really very much. There were clearly

Raoul Asparza Heads in the house. Caitlin, I think I think the thing he's best known for is that song, Being a Love. You know that one? Nope. Okay. Well, then I sang for no reason. That is what he's best known for in the mainstream. Like, he's an incredible singer, incredible performer, but I just did not like his approach to pilot. I'll be perfectly honest with you. And it actually, even though we talk about throughout the episode how, and this is obviously still true that Pilot is like overly empathized with in this rendition, it did make me appreciate Barry Denon's performance as Pilot much more because like if that's going to be

the approach of the production, you've got to sell it. And Barry Denon does sell it. And I don't think Rollis Spars it did. Moving on to Mary Magdalene, played by. Philippa Sue, who most famously played Eliza in Hamilton. That I think is her biggest credit. She's great. Like we talk about throughout the episode, she's great as Mary, and Mary has basically

nothing to do, so there is an upper limit to what she is able to do. But it was great, and it was also really cool seeing they were not leaning away from the lesbian undertones of Cynthia Arrivo and Philippa Su as Jesus and Mary. It was great. Um nice background on the production I guess is in the expected obnoxious racist misogynous ways there was a wave of fox news backlash to Cynthia Arevo's casting as Jesus because yada yada a black woman as Jesus never mind what we've talked about what you know Jesus was not white um and Cynthia areivo is fucking Cynthia areiva you should be thanking her for being willing to do it. I think she's next playing Dracula on the West End, which is like, she's just, she's just doing whatever. I love that. I know. I kind of what my mom, because my mom would die for her. And my mom was like, do you think we could go? I was like, oh my God. Okay. Too much.

Too much. We can't go international for Cynthia Arribo. It's too much. But so that was a background to the production. It was very, very well reviewed. It was really good. But I do feel like, and maybe I talked about this earlier in the episode, there are very glaring missed opportunities, particularly doing Jesus Christ Superstar right now. Not acknowledging the genocide is, I think, pretty inexcusable. And it's not just something that I, that didn't happen, which unfortunately I wasn't surprised, but wasn't something I saw in the press surrounding it at all, which I think kind of, it speaks to the media, but it also speaks to how Americanized and

divorced from its context that this musical has become over time. When, if you're paying attention to what the musical is, it's about resistance in the face of an oppressive force, which, if that's not Palestine, what is? And taking

place in the exact same location, it's inexcusable to put a massive production of this together and not call attention to that, if not actively do something. But that is not what this production did and in fact they cast a pretty prominent

Zionist leaning celebrity to play King Herod that being Josh Gadd. Yeah, that was not something I was I mean I guess I just didn't know Josh Gad's politics because I famously hate Josh Gad anyways and it turns out I hate him even more now.

We bullied him on the podcast before yeah and yeah so whoever emailed me saying that I that I was wrong to bully Josh Gad fuck you but but yeah I mean not only to completely not acknowledge the genocide that is happening

from the side of the Israeli government in this musical that takes place in the same exact location they cast a prominent Zionist to be a prominent role in it so I won't even speak to his performance because who fucking cares that said

Cynthia Arrivo and Adam Lambert they should take that show in the road and they should take it on the road with a production that is not afraid to discuss the context that it's happening in because it felt very very glaring and like basically centrist stuff is just like well can't we just have fun you guys and you're like not when you're showing the story of Jesus's crucifixion you fucking dumbass um yeah that said I laughed or cried and that's my update thank you I'm glad it was an enjoyable time it was and now we will travel back to the past before I had to see Josh Gadden person bless her heart

so so so so back to the originally recorded episode do you have anything else you want to talk about? I don't think so. No, I, yeah, this is definitely, like, it's a movie that is deeply problematic that had a very strong effect on me as a kid. I do, like, I think that there are elements to this movie that I still really appreciate that are mostly connected to Carl Anderson, honestly. And I think just like further, I don't know, it is, like, when you think of a dated project this is just this is like the most 1973 they oh yeah the last thing i was going to say is again it's like there is a vague moment of being anti-vietnam war um yeah and i like that i like that again it's it's unclear i mean i'm sure in 1973 it was very clear where there

was a moment where uh judas is pursued by tanks uh which would have been Israeli tanks which would have been is again so it's like the it means nothing but that was the intention of it and it's like sure yeah I mean and and that's again where it's like the project just fails for that reason where it's like if you're using occupying tanks to make an anti-war statement you're not doing anything right you're doing worse than nothing so as far as the movie goes it's like impossible to get past as far as the musical I mean the musical as far as I know you know it was just in the west end and then on Broadway and it was specifically the Norman Jewess in production that was making all these calls.

But either way, it ages not great. I guess my final thought is I love Carl Anderson. He does a great job. RIP. The last thing I want to do is just a call to action. Something I've done recently is compile a list of links on my link tree from families in Gaza who have reached out to me on Instagram. asking for help and so I've basically just started compiling all of those and donating

and we'll link that below as well and we will make contributions from our Patreon to that as well I hope that most of our listeners are already you know understand what is going on and are following reliable sources about that that would be another I think call to action is to divest from news sources that are not covering that are either not covering or or downplaying or both-sidesing what is objectively and has been for so long an active genocide of the Palestinian people. So not only giving directly to families who need direct aid, but actively pushing back on these false, half-ass narratives that we see pushed at the highest level. Also follow the BDS movement, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions. It's a Palestinian-led movement that has a list of companies to boycott, because that is something that does enact change.

Yeah, and it's something direct you can do right now. We will link all of those below. And, yeah, I think as far as ending this episode, I will be making a 500. dollar donation to PCRF for my birthday. If anyone would like to join me in doing that, please do. They are and have been doing really, I mean, as we've talked about many times in the show, they're doing really important work. Yeah. This movie does not pass the Bechal Test.

Sure, doesn't even come close. And I don't even really, I kind of want to skip the nipples. I don't think we deserve, we don't need to give nipples to movies that were made with Israel. Exactly. But it doesn't pass the Bexel test. and it's and that's my birthday and that's your birthday happy birthday jamie thank you thank you for listening listeners don't forget about our upcoming tour in the Midwest absolutely we will be there in just a couple weeks we will be in Indianapolis Chicago Madison and Minneapolis we hope to see

you there talking about the Star Wars prequels sorry sorry and you're welcome yeah And we'll see you there. Bye! Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichten, edited by Mo LaBorde.

Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast Hey guys, it's AZ Fudd You may know me as a gold medalist

You may know me as an NCAA national champion You may even know me as a people's princess Every week on my new podcast Fud Around and Find Out I'll be talking to some special guests about pop culture, basketball and what it's like to be a professional athlete on and off the court

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