The Bechdel Cast - Lion King (1994) with Naomi Ekperigin

Episode Date: July 18, 2019

Oh we just can't wait to be (tal)king about The Lion King (1994) with special guest Naomi Ekperigin!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @blacktress on Twitter.  While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Thursday. Hi, everyone. It's me, Katie Couric. You know, lately, I've been overwhelmed by the whole wellness industry. So much information out there about flaxseed, pelvic floor, serums, and anti-aging. So I launched a newsletter. It's called Body and Soul

to share expert-approved advice for your physical and mental health. And guess what? It's free. Just sign up at katiecouric.com slash bodyandsoul. That's K-A-T-I-E-C-O-U-R-I-C dot com slash bodyandsoul. I promise it will make you happier and healthier. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus. And here we are, talking about women in film once again. Wow. Brave of us, honestly. So brave. Incredible.

Just had lunch. We should get awards. Oh, we got one once. Oh, yeah. The Who Ha Ha Female Comedy Award for best- 2018. Not 2019. Yeah, so it's about damn time we have another one.

Hear that word? Yeah, I demand it. Anyway, so we talk about the representation of women in movies using the Bechdel test as a way to initiate a larger conversation. Jamie, what's the Bechdel test? Oh, I'll tell you. I'm sorry. I was just burping off mic.

I'll tell you. The Bechdel test is a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires of a piece of media that there be two female identifying characters who talk to each other about something other than a man. They also need to have names. It is also sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test because it was a collaborative effort. How did I do? That was incredible. I honestly was just holding in a second burp that whole time. And if you could just take it away, I'm going to take care of that. Sure. So today.

I'm back. In anticipation. Thank you. Thanks for coming back. In anticipation of the upcoming live action remake of Disney's The Lion King. We are talking about. The Lion King. The Lion King.

They're. Oh, God. I mean talking about The Lion King. They're, oh god, I mean Disney is evil enough, but the fact that they're making us cover every single one of their fucking movies as a part of their sinister world takeover scheme, I resent it. It's tiring. I am excited to see this movie.

I will be seeing it. I haven't seen any of the live action remakes in theaters but this is the one I'm a loser they're nice because you have amc stubs yes they're but this this i think is the one that's gonna break me because i i love the lion king shit so let's talk about the one from 94 and here to join us in that conversation we've got comedian actor co-host Therapy Podcast. And you know her from our When Harry Met Sally episode and our Black Panther episode. Three-time guest.

It's Naomi Ickparigan. Welcome. So you are making history right now on the Bechdel cast as our first ever three-time guest. However, this is the first time that it's just the three of us all at once talking together because the first time if you recall for when harry met sally i wasn't there jenny was on presence it was just you and i and and the mike's hard lemonade you drank in her honor that was course i feel like that was a presence i felt like i was there you were embodied in that mike's hard lemonade yes yes And then the second time, Jamie and I were both present, but so was Ify Wadiwe talking about Black Panther with all of us.

So this really is history making in many ways. So welcome back. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. For Disney's first black film, in a way. In a way. Well, tell us about your history and relationship

with The Lion King. Well, I do recall seeing The Lion King in the movie theaters. What was that, 94? 94. That would have been 10. That would have been 10.

Prime Disney time. I saw it and I saw it with my cousin and I think probably our aunt took us and was like, did it come out

over the summer? I think it came out in April. Okay, so we saw it together and I remember my cousin who was, she was always like a cool it come out over the summer? I think it came out in April. Okay, so we saw it together and I remember my cousin who was, she was always like a cool, tough girl, you know? Yeah. And I remember her, she cried during The Lion King.

And I was like, she was like, she was somebody who was like, nay nay, I'm about to cry. And I was like, damn, this movie got us all. Oh, it says June 24th, 1994. Oh, sorry, I was looking at the soundtrack never mind that came out in advance so we could all get

crunked it was like full of bops rewatching it I was like every single song and it's like all most of the songs are in the first half of the movie and then there's not many songs in the second half this movie rewatching it back you're like there's some weird tone shit going on but i'm here for it there's like in the final battle

scene it's like timon and drag cut to murder scene cut to rafiki is a ninja cut to murder scene like it's so wild totally inconsistent yes but i love Paced a little funky as well. A bit. Paced a little funky as well. I felt like in rewatching, again, obviously at age 10, I wasn't sitting here being like, wow, these tonal shifts. But it did feel like, you know, watching it grown, I was like, really? You've got 30

minutes before it really pops off and then everything kind of happens real fast. And they basically use two musical numbers to cover the space of like 10 years for one of them, right? And then they use the other one to cover like romance. Right. Like in the space of one song.

You're like, oh, okay, I guess. I guess they're in love now? They're in love now? Okay. I don't know. They definitely have sex. There's a graphic line fuck scene in the line. I like, I remember that shot of Nala being like, fuck me. the lion king. I remember that shot

of Nala being like, fuck me. She's like in the grass and she's like fuck me. I was like, how did they make this lion look like a coquette? You know what I mean? You can tell this is a male dominated production for many reasons, but the lion fuck

me eyes is like, shit. It's insane. that is that is i i mean i'm literally my blown away like i was like how did they and i was like we got to get an animator on the horn we gotta figure out what that brainstorm for this responsible what's the brainstorming conversation it's like how do i convey horniness in this lion's eyes? And then what is the art technique that creates that sensuality? And I was like watching the, they released it on DVD at some point with a ton of like extra features. And some of them are on YouTube and like the animators really,

really studied animals to be able to like animate them. So I'm like, did they get a lion horny? Like, is that based on, did they watch lions have sex? And they're like, this is actually not gross. This is actually really helpful for my job. Well, you know they did legit go to Africa. They went to Kenya and was like, okay, what's going on here?

Let's get boots on the ground. And I believe part of that was watching animals fuck. And being like, this is productive, guys. This is actually for art. This is for art. Adjust the camera. They tell HR they're taking the day off, but they're actually going to watch Animals Have Sex.

What a mess. Hey. So, saw it in theaters. Saw it in theaters. Yes, at the time. Did you watch it much after that, or was that kind of like the only time? I feel like I must have seen it a couple times after that,

but that might have been my peak of Disney. You know what I mean? Sure. Like 10, 11 years old, that's when I'm watching all that stuff. Yeah. And I like them all. And then I kind of age out. Then you start to age out.

Yeah. For sure. So definitely Lion King for me was probably like the peak Disney. Yep. When that drawing was amazing. Yeah. So good. Jamie, what about you?

What's your relationship? Oh, man. I love this movie very much. I might have seen it. I think I was too young to see it in the theaters. I was just one when it came out. You were so young. What?

Wait, when were you born? I was born in August 92. Okay, I have to go. I did not sign up to talk to someone who didn't see Clueless in the theaters originally. That's my rule for all human interaction. If you did not see Clueless in the theaters originally that's my rule for all human interaction if you did not see clueless in the theaters i can't with you i might maybe my mom went and left me on the floor she did do that she did that a few times when i was a kid there was like a rated

like pg-13 or r movie and she'd bring me and then she'd just be like here you go and i would just like sit on the floor and listen she definitely I think it was the wedding planner that I remember sitting on the floor and hearing, but not being able to watch. But I mean, I've seen this movie easily a hundred times. Like we, my mom ran a daycare out of our house. And so there was a VHS in at all times. And like, this is a crowd pleaser. You can shut up a house full of kids by turning on The Lion King. Yeah, I loved it.

I remember between me and all of my cousins, there were McDonald's toys and little finger puppets. And everyone was allowed to go to McDonald's once a week. And we were trying to crowdsource the full set. And I don't know. I just love it so much. Sing-along tapes. We we had like those anyone have those Disney sing-along oh yeah yeah I had all those Disney joints loved them with that little cricket yeah oh god and he's like let's sing Lion King again and my mom's like cool I'm going to bed like um yeah I love this movie and and watching it back what is interesting to me now is like the

production history of this movie because it's like i don't know it is genuinely hard for me to get excited about these live action remakes just seeing them but the production aspects and like the stuff that they're updating and the stuff they're not and like that is interesting to me so like finding out about the history of this a little bit was cool. But man, Lion King 94, it means the world to me. I love it so much. Same, same. I was eight when it came out.

I think I probably saw it in the theater. Promptly got it on VHS. Saw it probably 80 times throughout my childhood. Yeah, love it a whole lot. But this is one of the ones that i haven't seen that recently it's probably been a good 10 or more years since i watched it i was reminded when re-watching it the stampede sequence is so visually just cinematically incredible like the music and the visuals and the animation and just the emotion and oh my it's i'm gonna cry

but it's yeah it was so good i mean well also just like the opening in re-watching right totally forgot i was like oh my god nobody speaks for about four and a half to five and a half minutes yeah in that first three minutes like just literally set in a scene like disney was like we in africa bitch you know what I mean honestly how much did Black Panther take from Lion King we'll talk about that later but it was like they just really take it like

here are all the animals here are them coming across the plane to this big moment you know what I mean it just felt like they took their time with setting the scene in a way that maybe now because we're so used to animated shit and everything is animated all the time now that, like, you don't need to do that. But it just had the very, like, there's a majestic quality. Oh, sure. A grandeur to it that I felt they really leaned into.

It's beautiful. And it feels like one of those, like a movie that takes a very young audience seriously. And they're like, oh, kids will be able to handle this. Because I feel like they're like, it's animals. Kids like animals. But it is. It's like this beautiful, grand setup. And the animation in this movie, for all of the criticisms I'm sure we all have, is so beautiful. And I cry at the beginning.

I was crying the whole way through when I watched it by myself. I was. It really, I could, it really, I mean, it's a lot. And like, and the fact that this is like the,

the movie that basically a whole generation of kids learned about the concept of death from, or like learned how to rationalize it if they had already experienced it is like, whew, it's, oh, I can't, I can't think about Mufasa without crying I was like Disney y'all fucked up

they're always like killing a parent you know what I mean it's like always usually the mom is already dead either the background is a dead mom or the inciting incident is a dead parent but something about Mufasa I was like how dare you this one I can't allow.

This one I can't take. The Shakespearean gravitas. I mean, you know. It's a lot. A true, don't you love that they did too? They're like, yeah, why don't we just do like an African animal version of Hamlet? Like, was that the initial pitch? You know what I mean?

There is, oh, I can't wait to talk about the development of this movie because Disney is evil always. And so they're just, they love to steal and not give proper credit. But, I mean, like the elements of Hamlet that this movie uses, you're just like, why? Like, why would you do that? But it's so good. But then we get Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, a.k.a. Timon and Pumbaa. The movie gets so silly in the middle for like 20 minutes and you're just like, oh this is

great. We're like, we're all of a sudden we're in the rainforest. We're in a totally different climate. It's unclear how close the rainforest is to Pride Rock. We were joking it might be like a mile away. Right, because I think he's dead. Right, they think he's dead, right?

But then at the same time, Nala got to him. So she was doing her regular hunting. Right. And came upon them. So it must have been, could have been that far. Yeah, most what, five miles? Yeah. I don't know.

Well. I don't know. You know. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. That's what we're doing here today. We're figuring it out. Okay, so I'll do the recap of the film.

Don't cry. We're all going to cry. Don't cry. Okay. So we are somewhere in Africa. Where exactly? Unclear. Unspecified.

The African part. Mm-hmm. There. We learn about the circle of life through a song and all the visuals that Naomi was describing. We also learn about, what do they call it when there's a king and a queen? A monarchy? We also learn about monarchy. Yes.

We see a baby lion cub that has just been born, and that's Simba. Rafiki, who everyone thinks, including the movie, is a baboon, but is actually a mandrill, holds him up to the sky, this baby Simba cub. And the light shines on. Chosen one imagery is strong. And his parents, Mufasa and Sarabi, are so proud. Then we flash forward to sometime later when Simba is a little bit older. He's a kid now. He's Jonathan Taylor Thomas.

He's JTT. 1990s darling. Yes, of course. The darling of the 90s. His uncle Scar, voiced by Jeremy Irons. Giving you high camp. Oh my God. Serving you campy realness.

At the Met Gala. Jeremy Irons. We were talking about this where Caitlin and I watched it last night. I wish that every animated project had Bob's Burgers rules where everyone has to be in the room recording together at the same time. Because I just want a video of James Earl Jones and Jeremy Irons yelling at each other. I don't want them in different rooms. I want them pawing at each other. So Uncle Scar is mean.

He's jealous of Mufasa because Mufasa is king and Scar isn't. And yeah, Scar is like, he's slinkier he's he's also darker he's darker what are we saying what are we doing right one of the many there's a lot of coding happening with disney villains including scar yes we'll talk about that big queer coding combo to be had oh for sure so mufasa tells his son simba that he's going to be king someday and he tells simba about their kingdom and he will rule everything but this shadowy area off in the distance and then simba finds out from scar that that place is an elephant graveyard where the hyenas where the hyenas live and then Scar kind of subtly coaxes

Simba to go there. So Simba sings a song about how he just can't wait to be king. Such a bop. Yes. And that's not Jonathan Taylor Thomas singing. It's the older brother from Smart Guy. It's a black person. Don't get me started on what they do in this movie

with these voices. And then Simba and his best friend Nala go to the elephant graveyard, but they are chased by three hyenas who we learn that Scar had sent to kill Simba. Mufasa shows up and saves them. And Mufasa's like, Simba, you freaking idiot. You put yourself in danger. You put Nala in danger. Can you do it in a James Earl Jones voice?

Starting with you freaking idiot. You freaking idiot. You freaking idiot. I can't do it. None of us know. None of us have it. That's why he's the only original cast member back, baby. When you got it, you got it.

Jeremy Irons is twirling his mustache in fury somewhere. So Simba's all sad because he messed up so bad. And now Scar has to figure out a new plan to get rid of Simba and he sings what I think is the best song of the movie about being prepared to introduce a third Reich into his, into the community. Big Lenny Riefenstahl vibes during this scene.

Also, wait, I'm sorry, way too long of a song. Maybe because I don't like Scar. I was like, I think you can pull it back, sweetie. I think it should go on longer. Oh my my god i love it should last the length of titanic three hours and 14 minutes green fog i love it so he decides to have the hyenas cause a wildebeest stampede, which Simba gets trapped in the middle of, and then Mufasa has to go and save him,

which he does, but then as Mufasa's trying to get back to safety, Scar sort of launches Mufasa back into the stampede and kills him. And then we... The worst. It's the moment when all children learn that life is not fair.

Yeah. The most sobering moment of your childhood is when Scar sinks his fucking claws into Mufasa. And he goes, Long live the king. And you're like,

Jerry Arns, no! He throws him off. It's horrible. And then the stampede moves on and Simba's looking all around and we know what's happening. But Simba finds Mufasa and then he crawls under his big paw. Oh, and we are crying.

I'm crying. It's really sad. And then Scar comes up and he's like, Simba, if it weren't for you, your father would still be alive. We learn about death and gaslighting back to back. Yeah, truly. It's a lot. And he's like he makes Simba think that Mufasa's death

was Simba's fault and he's like your mom is gonna hate you. Everyone hates you now so you just should run away and never return. What do you think? Simba's like eight.

Yeah. At this point he's like eight and then he kind of becomes like an 18 year old. Right? I feel like he comes back with big college freshman energy. He's like, I'm back.

He's coming back for Thanksgiving. He's like, I'm a vegan now. I've studied abroad. I took a sociology class, and I feel ready to teach people. Because it's really illuminating. I was raised by my two gay uncles and now i'm very cultured literally came back after a semester at oberlin like he's back so so simba does run away and he is found by timon and pumbaa a meerkat and a warthog oh

now it gets fun it's fun it's really silly for a while re-watching it is kind of fun because it is i didn't realize what a major relief it is when timon and pumbaa show up but you're just like an emotional wreck and then you're like oh it's nathan lane we're safe also nathan lane and matthew broderick performing alongside each other in this and then later in the producers i will say i will say i have my thoughts about matthew broderick in this role. Oh, yeah. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm excited. Yeah.

I'm not married to Matthew Broderick in this role at all. No. Yeah. I think it should have been Alfred Molina. They're brave. Thank you so much. There's a few vocal performances that I'm very attached to in this movie. I mean, standout. Some standout vocal work.

I mean, really. Yeah. Like James Earl Jones and Nathan Lane. Jeremy Ir, standout. Some standout vocal work. I mean, really, yeah. Like, James Earl Jones and Nathan Lane. I mean, Jeremy Irons. And Timon and Pumbaa. Jeremy Irons. Black Nala serving this.

Yes, yes. Black Nala. Ugh, the attitude, the spunk. Give her more dialogue, for crying out loud. Like, was that when I got into JTD? When I saw him love a black woman? Look at him.

Looking back. I mean, I did love him, and now I'm looking back. He was fucking rough and tumble with his sister girl. And I am a little attached to Mr. Bean as Zazu. But I think that John Oliver is a good stand in for Mr. Bean. He's basically our generation's Mr. Bean. Maybe.

We'll see what John Oliver does. John Oliver is goofy to me. But it still feels like a restrained goofiness. It is an erudite goof. Like, do you see the goof I'm doing? Whereas I think we all know Mr. Bean. I mean, caution to the wind. Mr. Bean has no self-respect. He's chaos. He's chaos on leave. And it comes out in Zazu. See, I think Zazu is his most restrained role that he's ever done

so I don't know that is really funny okay if you had to choose Disney birds are we going with Yago or are we going with Zazu oh Zazu I don't really I'm Yago Gilbert Godfrey's voice is far too grating and I'm the first one to say that

you're welcome, everybody. Caitlin coming through with hot takes on Gilbert Godfrey's voice. I'm Team Iago. And now I'm wondering, I'm like, is that a Shakespearean reference, too? Like, the, I don't know. Disney and Shakespeare are a lot of overlaps. Yeah, it's true. It's because they're, yeah, they're like, we're actually a little better than your average cartoon.

And I'm like, no, you're usually stealing from somebody. Well, I was going to say, it's stuff you can steal, but it's in the public domain. Do you know what I mean? It's stuff you can steal from 1500. And anything that they would have to pay for, they're like, coincidence. Sorry.

No, I'm like, okay, tell us all the time. Okay, this is just a classic family drama. Right. This is not from you. Yeah. Okay, so Timon and Pumbaa tell Simba, hey, don't worry about your past. Hakuna Matata means no worries.

There's that song. Greatest song slash montage. Walk across a damn log at the age of 10 years. I mean, brilliant. That makes me tear up, too. It's the economy of filmmaking. That always makes me tear up a little bit, too. I don't know.

I think it's because my mom's crazy. She'd be like, that's how I feel about you wait how did she feel about you she's like you're growing up so fast so it's like the log and I'm like okay oh my god my mom felt strongly about the log

my mom was really into like putting framed Disney prints on credit cards which would later prevent us from going to college. But she was really into purchasing framed Disney prints for a while, and we had a picture of the log in our house. Wow. A lot. Beautiful.

Well, it's on that log that he turns into the carefree adult that is not concerned with his past anymore, or at least not on a conscious level. He's compartmentalized. Oh, yeah. He needs some serious therapy, that Simba. But he's an adult now. Then Nala shows up.

And she's like, oh, my God, Simba, you're alive? Holy shit. You need to come back to Pride Rock because Scar and the hyenas have taken over and they've ruined everything. She's like, you've been gone 10 years. It's Nazi Germany now. We thought you were dead. There is no water. You're out of your own buds.

The EPA has been dismantled, and the environment has been ruined. Pride Rock is flit. And we need you back. We need you back, Simba. Not to keep poking the plot holes in there, but it's like, Pride Rock doesn't have water. We're to believe it's sort of kind of nearby and simba's over here with a lake and it's so much grub so much food yeah yeah yeah

a lot of greenery maybe that's a weird scar rule of don't go to the very nearby lake probably and then simba's like i can't go back my feelings hurt too much but i don't know how to talk about them i don't deserve to go back i My feelings hurt too much, but I don't know how to talk about this. I don't deserve to go back. I don't deserve to go back. He's doing a lot of that. I just think Broderick was too old for this. Sorry.

I really haven't even gotten. No, no, no. I'm still literally breaking it down. I still am like, Broderick. You know, we want to think he's so boyish. You know, he has that boyish. I think he rode that boyish wave well into his 50s. Like in Lion King, he's probably like 30 something. Yeah, he has that boyish, I think he rode that boyish wave well into his 50s. Like in Lion King, he's probably like 30 something.

Yeah, he is. But it's like a little too, I don't know. He is stiff white, you know? Yeah. When it comes to vocal, again, you got to be coming through with irons, camp, drama, theater. And it felt like Matthew Broderick was like a little too uptight so you know it's a bit stiff yeah yeah so so was white nala yeah for sure i was like okay both of y'all

y'all giving me some like weird like young and the restless multi-k a moment and what i need is i mean just the vocal fun of like nathan lane and um god why am i blinking on his name isabella thank you or isabella and obviously different characters like different types of characters and Lane and I'm blinking on Pumbaa's name. Ernie Sabella. Thank you, Ernie Sabella. And obviously different characters, different types of characters. Obviously the Warthog has got to come through with raspy jovialness. But a little something. You're only 17,

18. And especially Nala in general, the voice changes is infuriating. And then also she has so few lines at all that it's like, you know, you gotta hire a vocal performer who can make a lot. Deliver the seven lines you give her in the second half of the movie.

Like a damn meal of it. Crying out loud. So Nala's trying to convince him to return. He's like, no. But then Rafiki shows back up and imparts some wisdom about how Simba needs to face his past and how Mufasa is alive inside of him. And then ghost Mufasa shows up in the sky. Okay, Black Panther. And he's like, right?

Yeah. And Kimba the White Lion. Oh, gosh. So Simba's like, oh, shit. I should go back home. I'm on spring break, so I'll go back. And then he returns to Pride Rock, and Nala, Timon, and Pumbaa also follow him. And Scar is like, oh, Simba, you're alive.

That's weird. And then Sarabi's like, oh, my god, you're alive, Simba. And everyone has varying reactions to him being there and then simba challenges scar in a i wrote down game of thrones ever heard of it scar is like oh by the way i'm the one who killed mufasa and simba's like no and then they fight and he throws scar over a cliff and then the hyena's eat him but no but remember though it's like literally first simba comes back sensitive and scar was like you killed your father tell everybody and they're like yeah you did simba and then two seconds later

scar's like i killed your father and then simba pushes him back and is like tell him what you told me just now in my ear and he's like i, I killed him. And they're like, scar. It's like literally how fast it unravels. It is so fast. It's insane. And then in the middle of that, Timon and Pumbaa show up and they're goofing off. And you're just like, this is a mess. It's like a very messy high school fight of like, tell them what you just said.

And then he's like, I didn't say anything. And then you're like, oh, and then the two clowns are over here. I love when Timon's like, what, do you want me to get in drag and do the hula cut to him in drag doing the hula? And then back to the brutal Game of Thrones that's also going on. He's like, are you aching for some bacon? And then smash cut to Simba punching Scar in the face. You could be a big pig too. Okay.

So then Scar has been defeated. And then we flash forward to Pride Rock is nice again. The EPA has been reinstated. They finally cleaned the water. Yes. They remembered about the lake. Simba's like, it's literally right over there. Nala knows where it is.

I don't know why she didn't tell you guys. And Nala had gotten pregnant with a little baby lion cub who Rafiki lifts into the sky just like Simba had been in the beginning because it's the circle of life. And then we learn in the the beginning because it's the circle of life

and then we learn in the second one that it's his daughter, Kiara I never watched the second one I've seen the second one that one's basically Romeo and Juliet but yeah, Simba's daughter Kiara

we've got to go to a quick break but then we will come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh, my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at

karaoke. And on camera, yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Ludie. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.

It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100 percent of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career. Without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I mean, where to begin? Where to begin? What have we already started talking about that we can just pick up on? We could talk about the caucasity. Sure. Yes. Presence. Yes. Let's do it. Where to begin? What have we already started talking about that we can just pick up on? We could talk about the caucasity. Sure. Yes. Prev presence. Yes.

Let's do it. Because it is funny, like, watching it, like, as a kid, like, to me, it was black. I was like, oh, we did get our first princess. And I was like, oh, I know why I don't remember her. Because they made her Moira Kelly later on. Yeah. But I just, because it was like the voice of James Earl Jones. And just, like, it's just interesting, you know, because like this whole idea of like talking white or talking black or sounding whatever, you know.

There's by no means a hard and fast rule. You know, I definitely grew up being told I talked white for forever. And now most of my stand up is just fucking toggling back and forth between voices for the fun of it. And like code switching whenever I need to. But it is just interesting how this was a movie to me where it was like code switching whenever i need to but it is just interesting how this was a this was a movie to me where it was like oh that's a black person that's a white person and like knowing that in my ear even as a little kid you know what i mean i'm just very interested in the whole like why would they not cast a black actress to be nala

because i will say sarabi is coming through with this regal realness in her Coco vocals. Give me another black woman! Madge Sinclair is the voice actor that voices Sarabi. Unfortunately also has seven lines total. But makes a meal of it. She's giving you something. You know what I mean? A little something.

And I just thought that was very interesting, some of those choices. You know what I mean? You need, I mean, Jeremy Irons' perfection. Jonathan Taylor Thomas, one other star of that time would do it. But it was just so funny how I was like, yeah, that's Jonathan Taylor Thomas. And when he sings, it's Michael Jackson. You know what I mean? Not literally Michael, but how it would just be that sound.

And you're just like, I think we know what had happened here. It was just so interesting. Yeah, the voice of young Simba, Jason Weaver, who I remembered as the older brother on Smart Guy. Oh, the singing voice, right? The singing voice, yeah. And then, so, yeah, white actor for the speaking voice, black actor for the singing voice.

Shouldn't they have just cast black voice actors for every role in this movie well i know right that's kind of i know but then at the same time right they're animals and so who are we to ascribe race to animals but when you start with james earl jones everybody else got a rancid dedication that's the tricky like that's a tricky thing you know i mean like he's like the patriarch right and he's giving you that gravitas right because it's kind of split down the middle in terms of casting uh where you've got voice actors who are people of color we've got mufasa sarabi young nala rafiki shenzi and bonsai so you've got like james jones magic sinclair what was his name? Robert Guillaume. Yeah.

You know Whoopi Goldberg and Cheech Marin as two of the hyenas and then Nikita Kalama Harris is young Nala and then the white voice actors Young Simba, JTT we've got Adult Simba, Matthew Broderick, we've got Adult Nala what's her name? Moira Kelly

Scars, Jeremy Irons as we've discussed, Zazu what's her name moira moira kelly kelly scars jeremy irons as we've discussed zazu is rowan atkinson timon and pumbaa are nathan lane and the names that i also forget yeah and then uh jim jim cummings is ed the the other the the laughingest hyena let's yes the laughingest hyena uh part of the issue with this movie and with most disney movies that are trying to portray another culture even if it even if the intentions are earnest is everyone in a major production role in this movie is a white person and so it's like it doesn't seem like anyone was considering it yeah because to me also me, also, look, it is animation. You know what I mean?

And one of the things I love and keep trying to break my ass into voiceover is because I don't have to deal with the same assumptions of what I am allowed to play because of my face. So I'm not necessarily, for me, it's like, no, you can give me some cross-cultural moments. I just took issue with the switching of vocals on people. Yeah, sure. In both, like, and there's a difference, too, between, like, obviously Matthew Broderick isn't singing his part. I just took issue with the switching of vocals on people. There's a difference, too, between obviously Matthew Broderick isn't singing his parts. That's apparently the lead singer of Toto, I think, who sings Matthew Broderick. It's also John Williams' son.

Oh, wait. Oh, wow. Wouldn't it be funny, though, if it was, and that's what inspired him to sing Africa? No, it is. Yeah, Joseph Stanley Williams fronted for the lead of the rock band Toto. Son of John Williams? Yeah, son of John Williams. Who knew?

Wild connection. So I get, you know, the actor can't sing necessarily. Sure. But it's just like so jarring to go from like, squeaky Jonathan Taylor Thomas to like Motown moments. It's just, it's just such a shift. And the thing I've never

really understood, now maybe more than ever, it's about famous people and certainly if you're doing this live action thing, but to me the whole point of voiceover is like, let the voice actors get a job.

I don't need, it's like when I hear Fred Savage talk about Nissan and shit. It's like, ain't you got some money? What you taking all this stuff for? We don't, it's like it's like right here fred savage talking about nissan and shit it's like ain't you got some money what you taking all this stuff for we don't like the fact you need that star power for like even a cartoon right i say you get like a couple recognizable names maybe for like the poster or whatever yeah but it's like and maybe the girl who was young nala was too young to age up but then you just find like an older like an adult right there were plenty

to choose from right and you could just tell like you just knew I don't know I just hear that little black girl having fun

like you know that voice and then you and then you like I was like right what are you doing it just seems like no thought was given to it

and it's it's frustrating luckily the live action remake seems to have course corrected arected a lot of this. Yes, but if you look at the production team, it is still majority white production team, white director. That's the thing that frustrates me about a lot of...

It is progress, but behind-the-camera representation is still so low, and you don't see it, and so no one really checks it. Of course course and then also every if you notice too the black people in the movie are the super blacks not an actual phrase of course but this idea usually that like because you notice a lot like people will allow a black musician who has reached a certain level of fame to cross over into acting because like okay i already know that black person so you can put them over here yeah but it's harder for anybody to just kind of crop up out of nowhere do you know what i mean like it's beyonce right come to fuck on you know what i mean it's like you picked the best yeah

black woman around right now you know what i mean like just donald glover also like a multi-hyphenate like if they were gonna put black people in it had to be the like big splashy names and not obviously like they'll be good I'm not saying any of these people lack the ability to do this work but it is still that feeling that like you're not giving like a newer performer a chance or just like you're nothing

else out of the box you're like it was just kind of like who's the biggest black person we can get for this thing yeah okay can we get her can we get her okay Can we get her? Okay, good. Okay, now we're done. Okay, now we're done. Okay, now Beyonce, just Beyonce into the microphone. Right.

Just Beyonce into the microphone. We'll hit record. And then it's like you can have Jon Favreau direct it and people aren't going to raise an ad. It really does bother me when there's a lot of effort put into representation in one area specifically and then the rest is sort of like well we can keep status quo over here yeah and that's true and I mean that's true in a lot of animation yeah like it's and which is white boys having fun oh it's horrible white boys stealing ideas oh yeah do you want to talk about that yes okay. I vaguely knew about this, but then I did a deep dive on it. There's a YouTube channel I watch called Yesterworld.

It is very long video essays about Disney themed topics, and I am ashamed. But he does great work. Anyways, they're basically like short docs. But The Lion King, part of its claim to fame is being Disney's first quote unquote original story that isn't a direct adaptation of something else. So there's elements of Moses and Joseph. There's elements of Hamlet. But it's an original story. It's our first like the first Disney Renaissance movie that isn't a direct like old European story being adapted.

Right. And that doesn't seem necessarily true. It bears a lot of resemblance to an anime series that started as a comic book series called Kimbo the White Lion in Japan by a very famous Japanese animator

named Osamu Tezuka. It's the most frustrating story in the world to unpack because it's just like peak Disney where it's like if you can admit that you were taking elements from this story and pay the people who created it, no harm, no foul, all good.

Because Tezuka's whole, he's a super famous Japanese animator. He invented Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion, like two huge- Kimba. Kimba. White Lion, like two huge... Kimba. Kimba. Like Simba. You know, exactly like Simba.

Oh, Lord. And Tezuka idolized Disney, was constantly citing Bambi as the reason that he wanted to become an animator, like got to meet Disney once, and was, it just was like very effusive about how much... Disney was like, I hate brown people. Yes. But I mean, I don't know what their relationship was, but Disney's not a good person. But Tezuka makes Kimba the White Lion.

It is a big deal in Japan. His name is Leo the Lion in Japan, but it's not in America because the MGM lion's name is Leo. So they changed it to Kimba. So he's known as Kimba the White Lion in America. It's not a super popular thing in America, but it is popular enough that people know. Good question.

It was the 60s? The 60s is when the character was invented. Or the 50s was comic books, and then there were movies in the 60s. Yeah, he was like a well-established okay so yeah it right and so there uh is a lot of speculation that is well-founded that the lion king rips off a lot of elements of kimba the white lion most of them are visual but basically the the issue with it is that here's this uh famous japanese animator who absolutely loved Disney.

His company was willing to play ball and like lend the rights because they're like, oh, you know, and he passed away by the time this movie came out. But he's like, oh, Tezuka would have loved that Disney wanted to use his characters. But Disney firmly denied that what they had done had anything to do with Kimba the lion. Their lion Simba had anything to do with kimba the lion their lion simba had nothing to do with kimba there's a number of like things you can watch online of side-by-side shots oh god the fight between scar and simba is identical the the dead dad in the sky scene is identical the stampede with the bird hovering above saying don't worry help is coming is identical like visually in addition to story beats the dead father beat is there

the stories aren't exactly one for one the same there's literally a farting warthog in kimba the way no it's ridiculous that is so fucked up it is and disney already has such a horrible history of stealing from other cultures and never crediting and being like our idea we did it and this is like a particularly egregious because when the movie came out tezuka's company was like hey this bears a lot of resemblance to our ip we weren't paid for it but tezuka would have liked it like they were still really nice about it and disney responded by issuing a cease and desist to the company and saying like keep our name out of your fucking mouth oh my god has nothing to do with what you did and fuck off so it's just me the are we surprised they're now like trying to start a fucking empire yeah right now where no one will

be allowed to watch anything that does not have their logo on it. They're evil. And a lot of animators anonymously came forward because the wrath of Disney, you can't. But a lot of animators anonymously came forward and were like, no, we definitely knew about Kimba, the white lion. It was talked about in meetings all the time. The Lion King started as a Kimba project, but then Tezuka passed away

and we had already started concept art, so we sort of just kept a lot of it and like it's well documented matthew broderick has said in interviews that he was telling everyone he was going to be the voice of kimba because he was familiar with kimba and he was told he was going to be the voice of kimba and they're like actually it's simba never mentioned tezuka again and and disney still to this day has not copped to it. But they basically stole a lot of visual inspiration and story beats. In addition to the Hamlet stuff that they will admit to, they stole a lot from this very famous Japanese animator. Disney is Scar. Basically.

Disney is a gaslighting liar, but also not even good at their treachery. Do you know what I mean? Like, they have power, but like, they don't, they're not, like, you couldn't even make that shit not look alike. You just listed six direct scenes. You changed one letter. You changed one letter to their name. Because that was the thing with Scar, too.

It was like, okay, bitch, you gaslit a child. Yeah. You ain't that clever. And then you got in charge and then nobody had water you ain't even good at being in charge why did you want to be in charge so bad you just sit in your cave with a bird in a rib cage why did you want to be in charge so bad you're not good at any of the things he couldn't even keep the secret of i killed your father right it's like for two seconds it's like wait till he's dead. And he was like, gotta whisper in his ear.

It's like Disney's not even good at faking shit. Stealing shit. There's also hyenas and a Rafiki character in Kimba. Oh my god. Okay, the one thing that, this just makes me laugh. The one thing that was included in Kimba the White Lion that is actually very good that Disney did not steal because it's scary. Is Kimba the White Lion's dad also dies in the movie. But instead of really devastating under the paw scene,

what Kimba the White Lion does is keeps his dad's hide and uses it as a disguise at multiple points in the movie. Oh my God. And does not let other people know that the king is dead. He just sneaks under his dad's corpse and is like, hello, everybody. He buffalo bills his father. He weekends at Bernie's.

He weekends at Bernie's. Buffalo bills him. So those are fun scenes to watch on YouTube, too, because you're like, yikes. This is very dark. Okay, so that's my tirade. Thank you for sharing all that we've got to take another quick break but then we'll come right back for more discussion Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017

was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.

And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Catherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh, my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know.

I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love

a ballad. I felt Bjork's music and I just was like, who is this person? I gotta

hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow

Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente.

And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job?

Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote.

What is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so we've covered the, you know, intellectual property theft from Disney. We've covered the upsetting casting choices. Let's talk about the female characters. Oh, yeah. But it's like they haven't come up yet with good reason.

With good reason because they are nearly inconsequential to the story. Did you by any chance count how many lines they have? Because I literally feel like it has to be between them. Does Whoopi have a gender as a hyena? Because I didn't think so. I don't know if we ever hear pronouns. Right. So I'm not counting Whoopi.

So I'm literally just counting Nala and Sarabi. Right. Okay. I swear to you they must say less than 20 lines between the two of them the whole movie. Oh, I think that that is generous. Especially because most of Nala's interaction is in a music montage where she fucks. And she doesn't speak. Right.

She doesn't say anything. Right? So it's just them frolicking around. We're just hearing her internal monologue. Right. And so you're just like, okay, why can't he be the king I want him to be? And then she's like, I'm ready. And it was just like, what?

Because initially I was like, oh, I forgot. We're just like, you're going to be married. And she's like, ew, gross. And I was like, okay, I'm into this. Totally changed. So their romance subplot is Zazu being like, yeah, you guys are betrothed. And they're like, what, I'm into this. Yeah, okay. Totally changed. So their romance subplot is Zazu being like, yeah, you guys are betrothed. And they're like, what the fuck does that mean?

And he's like, you're going to be married. And they're like, gross, we're friends. And then Simba disappears from her life for a decade. She thought he was dead. Yeah. She thought he was dead. But I do think it is important that her life is more defined by him than his life is defined by her because seeing him, again, means the world to her because he equals no more Nazis in addition to fucking.

Right. The hope for her future hinges on this boy. Yeah. Sadly. Whereas he's just like, oh, sup? He's like, oh my God, so good to see you. What have you been up to? She's like, I god so good to see you what have you been up to i thought you were dead

it's like if i ran into my neighbor brendan o'connell who i used to have a crush on and like oh my god brendan this horrible guy named trump is in office and you like have to get him out and he's like what's up i'm like oh hey i'm really busy right now i don't know insects for the past 10 years i know how did he get so jacked eating grubs? I bet they're high in protein. He's got a full body. Dined on meat. He's thick. He's swole.

I'm interested in teen Simba. We only see him on the log for a moment. But he has a mohawk of lion fur. I'm like, that is styled. Who was doing was doing his rebellious phase yeah that was it but then here's a question too did you do you feel like timon and pumbaa were his parents i feel like at best they were like big brothers like i don't think anyone was like

raising him or teaching him how to behave i felt uncle vibes from them i always felt like a an uncle vibe of like yeah you're taken care of of. They're technically like your caretakers, but they're not like making sure you're learning things. They're not teaching you much. Like literally their whole life philosophy is don't care. Yeah.

So what really can they be teaching him? Right. And yet in the montage of Hakuna Matata, he learns everything he needs to know about life and is ready to go back to resume the throne. Right. It is. And then we learn in that, and this never really registered for me, but in that scene where they're all looking at the stars, Timon, Pumbaa, and Simba,

you learn that Simba has never told them anything about his background. So they know very little about him. They've just kind of been feeding him bugs. I'm like, I want to know what they're, well, you have to see Lion King a half which is a classic one and a half lion king one and a half is is i think of the two direct-to-video lion kings the superior it's just literally what timon and pumbaa were doing during all the parts of the lion king that they're not in no it's really funny it's like oh my god and it's nathan lane and ernie Sabelle. Matthew Broderick, the whole cast came back for this 2004 direct-to-video.

It's really good. I haven't seen that one either. It's classic. That's amazing. And I like that they called it Half. Yeah. Interesting. I thought it was going to be like a 20-minute clip by Half.

For some reason they made it a feature. I kind of miss direct-to-video shit. I guess there are some Netflix projects that are comparable to direct-to-video shit, too, where you're just like, who is this for? Yeah. It's so much work for who?

But I love that stuff. So anyway, we've got Simba, who is emotionally repressed. We've got Nala coming back. Here's what really drives me nuts about this storyline is that Nala comes back and she's like, Simba, you've been gone all this time. Our homeland has been deteriorating.

We're living under this Nazi regime. Please come back and help us. You're our only hope. And he's just like, no thanks. And then a male character shows up Rafiki. And he's like, Hey Simba, you should really like look inside yourself and then consider going back.

And he's like, you're right. A man told me I should do that. So I'm going to. But I thought it was because the man showed him his daddy in the sky. The magic man. He was a magic man. Yeah.

I feel like Rafiki, and he does know Rafiki. Rafiki did the whole hold him on the rock when he was a baby. He doesn't remember that. I don't think he knows Rafiki, actually, when he shows back up. Right, because he's like, I knew your father. Oh, okay. Right, because he's like, who are you? And he's like, my father's dead.

Sorry to break it to you, dude. So he doesn't recognize him at all. I know what you mean, though. Right, because he's like, who are you? And he's like, my father's dead. Sorry to break it to you, dude. So he doesn't recognize him at all. I know what you mean, though. Yeah. But I think it's also like, I could have used a scene of all the lady lions, like, trying to overthrow Scar in some capacity and failing. Do you know what I mean? Like, just a pop of what was going on back home.

Right. Yeah. How they tried to fight back and couldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? I think that would, like, help just logistically help offset some of the tone stuff too because you don't know what's going on until you're seeing dystopia right before simba gets back right and it would be and it's like you get that one shot of sarabi like holding her head high as she is like walking through this like hyena hell den and you can sort like you get an idea

of like she's been through a lot she's like retaining her dignity through this but this isn't but it's like yeah you could use especially because we see nala's mom for one line uh right as she's cleaning her child exactly she's licking her child's ass and that's literally always the effort yeah that would that would have been good for everyone, too. Because you are sort of like, how did Scar pull this off? He's so outnumbered. Right. That brings me to some science facts that I have.

Oh, science facts. Yes. We talked to Katie Golden. She is the host of Creature Feature Podcast right here on the network. And she knows a lot about animals. And she told us a thing or two about how lion behavior actually works in nature versus how it's depicted in The Lion King. Bring it. So she says female lions make up the core of a pride, which we see in the movie. Males come and go. Prides are often thought to only contain one male and like a harem of females, but that's not always totally accurate. Only Savo lion prides contain a single male adult most other subspecies of lions have prides in

which there are up to four males typically brothers and typically one dominant male is allowed to mate with several females and then they all produce cubs so in the lion king nala and simba would be related because mufasa would be both of their dads. Yikes. Because we see only one, we see Mufasa and then we see Scar who we assume isn't, he's an incel, he is not getting fucked. I was, yes, major incel. Like, he lives

in a basement. Right. Literally. Yeah. And then, but then all the other adult lions are females. So Mufasa's fucking everyone? So Mufasa's fucking, so there's that's fucking okay well uh now that sexy time in the fucking jungle is really creeping me out yep um fuck me brother in in real life in nature this kind of inbreeding is usually avoided by dispersal so the male lions will move away from the pride that they were born in and seek a new pride or a new territory so simba returning to pride rock wouldn't have happened in nature the dominant alpha male

in a pride will eventually be ousted by a younger fitter male or several males a swoller male lion who will take a tenure at the pride. So the son of the alpha male lion would not be the one to take over. He would instead go off and find his own Pride. So that's big thing number one. I couldn't even go to someone's table at lunch. Right. Just literally be like,

can I be part of your Pride? The confidence. Confidence. The confidence it takes to just be like, hey, can I join your pride also? I'm in charge. Yes. So I'm the leader.

Big all about Eve energy to that move. So in terms of female and male lions, it's hard to say kind of who's in charge as both females and males have specific roles in their community because females rear the cubs they do the majority of hunting and they help enforce the social structure while males defend their territory from other males they assist in hunting a little bit and they are usually either ousted or they disperse to other prides. But typically, prides are thought of as a matriarchal society because the permanent social structure is maintained by the females, whereas the presence of any one individual male is generally temporary. This is what we were just talking about in the narrative. Females in nature, in real life, will gang up on an intruder male who attempts to take

control of a pride so if scar tried to take control of the mating or in this movie he tries to become king what he would do try to kill all the existing cubs so the females would try to prevent this by fighting him off and because scar is super scrawny uh they probably would have won and killed him yeah because like what does scar have he just has some hyenas and is it just i can't remember like he has obviously the three main ones in there they're more than that but i was like there's a whole army yeah there's a whole army of hyenas but in actual nature the lions wouldn't be afraid of a hyena no so that's what i was like well i guess maybe just the number.

Oh, there's more. I have some more facts. Katie, coming through. Yes. Everyone listen to Creature Feature. Hyenas would never work with lions, she says. Oh, her whistleblower. Lions eat hyena cubs and steal their kills.

While sometimes hyenas will steal a lion kill, but hyenas are also matriarchal and they're actually more nepotistic than lions so in the lion king if mufasa simba and scar were female hyenas this would all actually become more accurate uh narratively i sort of don't understand what I just read but maybe that makes sense I trust Katie so mistakes were made to avoid scenes with too many women in them right

that would be such a better scene and just to get to know a female character well enough but again it's just like if you look at the lineup of people who made this movie it totally tracks that they would have no concern about like why isn't nala doing more does nala do anything that has consequence besides get pregnant the surrounding right because she has the agency and she's active enough to go looking for help and in so doing she finds simba

yes but her attempt to convince him to return doesn't work. Exactly. And it's not until Rafiki's like, hey, you better go back, that Simba's like, okay, so she could have never showed up, and it really wouldn't have made a difference. Well, and if you even go back, when they were kids, Nala is following Simba to go to the elephant graveyard. It's not her idea.

She doesn't have a lot of agency there. And then she just sort of is like hanging out while Simba's being a fucking brat and is like I'm gonna own everything. He's so entitled as a kid. God, fucking like rich kids and their entitlement. I can't.

But she is able to, every time they kind of like play fight, she always pins him. So I guess she's that stronger. She's going to pin him. Because she's a good hunter. But then she does it later and it's horny. Yeah. And that's how he knows that, oh, you're Nala, the girl who always used to pin me.

But also like right before, she like licks his face a little. Yeah. And you're like, Nala making a first move. That's true. She does initiate. Does she surprise kiss him though? I don't know. A surprise though? I don't know. A surprise lick?

I don't know. How do lions consent? We don't know. I mean, considering he had like never interacted with a female lion

in like a decade. You know what I mean? He was like very stunned. No, but it would have been a great to see like a scene

with like Nala and Sarabi like teaming up to try to be like let's overthrow scar like let's do something or even a conversation about again like the death of her husband and son so robbie went through a lot right and we did not gloss over that yeah and and even when Simba comes, again, it only lasts two seconds, but when she thinks, when Scar is like, he's the reason why Mufasa's dead. What she says, she goes, Simba? Or like, is that true? She has that, but I'm like, we should have had Sarabi faint at some point. Fall out and get it back together. She should have been the one to find him in the damn jungle.

She was like, I've left. I have nothing to live for. And have been the one to find him in the damn jungle where she was like i've left i have nothing to live for and have been on a walkabout or it's like we see the scene where like scar comes back after just having gas lit simba and been like hey sarabi mufasa's dead simba's dead sorry and then and then we can see the aftermath of Sarabi and then Nala finding out that her best friend is presumably dead. And then them trying to cope with that grief. Yeah, exactly. Because you said you see Pride Rock is black and cracked. It's already a desert, so you're like, well.

But then you see it looking worse. But to see a moment like, well well what does life look like for the rest of the pride but what is actually going on down below are they doing like a pussy march like a pussy hat march like a women's march yeah like what are they doing and especially like i don't that's like a question i'm just kind of like wait what what's going on with them and we can see that there's a lot of like lioness like when you see that shot of scar being in charge i'm like there there's there are enough women to stage an uprising yeah literally rip him to shreds oh gosh but enough women to stage an uprising especially because the in real life female lions are the more proficient hunters which at least you see with nala at one point. But you would think they would have been able to take out Scar and probably most of the hyenas.

They would have been able to rip them to shreds. What's the point of going to Kenya to get the answers if you're not going to use them? Right. Disney. Disney producers and writers. Failure of vision. Failure of vision. This is like literally if we were like waiting

around to be rescued by an 18 year old boy like it just doesn't make any logical sense right we could just take someone down ourselves yeah i did it's just busy laughing at farts there but yeah i mean like the really the only two female characters we get here they exist in relation to the men around them pretty explicitly. And the fact that Simba and Nala start out as friends, it would have been nice to see them just stay as friends. The fact that they wedge a romantic storyline in there

doesn't need to happen. Yeah, I feel like she could have been used as the moment of the friend that finally gets him to admit him thinking he killed his dad and then Nala could have been the one to be like scar was lying to you right that don't even make no sense simba yeah look back yeah look back that don't make no sense again if that had been a black woman as grown as knowledge you'd have been like simba get it together right yeah but yeah nothing Right, yeah. But yeah, nothing really adds up.

It simply does not. And so I'm curious if any of this will sort of be kind of course corrected in this remake because Disney seems to be attempting to do this with these live action remakes. For example, not to brag, but I did see Aladdin 2019 in the theater. Okay, I hope you can get that as a text right off. Oh, yes. I'll be writing that off. I used my A-list stubs and it was actually free.

I'm stubs, but not A-list. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, sometimes you just got to upgrade. Anyway. Are you telling me to upgrade you like the Beyonce song? Oh. Who plays Nala?

Go ahead, Aladdin. You're trying to tell me something so in this live action Aladdin there seems to be an attempt to make Jasmine a more meaningful and fleshed out character she's given like political aspirations that she does not have in the animated film from 92 she's also given a couple extra songs so we learn a little bit more about her character and her perspective. So there's an attempt to flesh out female characters more, it seems. There's still lions in this. So what are they going to do? You know what I mean?

You can use that as a cover. Right. But they're anthropomorphized as people, basically. So I don't think that's any excuse. I think they can still, like, give female characters agency. We can learn more about their personalities, their backstories, like, all that stuff. I mean, that's, like, the test of, like, that's the only thing that most of the only value I see in these cash grab movies is, like, can you improve upon the material by adapting it well? And like,

can you, you know, like make the like diverse choices you should have in the first movie? Can you like fix shady character shit or like confusing? Like, why is this person motivated? Why don't we see this female character for an hour? Like stuff like that. Like you could have that scene with Sarabi and Nala's mom and all the lionesses like why is this person motivated why don't we see this female character for an hour like stuff

like that like you could have that scene with sarabi and nala's mom and all the lionesses in the new one and that would be like a cool adaptation change sure i don't know yeah what's seth rogan playing he's he's i object and billy eichner's tomorrow. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we've got some updates, including Amy Sedaris plays a character whose name is Elephant Shrew. We seem to have added a few, what I'm guessing are male characters, who's like Eric Andre plays a character named Azizi,

who I don't think is in there. What I think is they changed the names of the hyenas. That was what I thought. Oh, maybe. Because Shenzi is Whoopi Goldberg's character in the 94 animated one. And that remains. But I don't see, I think his name was like Banzai in the animated one. So maybe that's Azizi now.

Oh, yeah. Who does he play? Oh, no. He plays Kamari. Who's that? Who's Kamari? I don't know. Okay. It's a ZZ now. Oh, yeah. Who does Key play? Oh, no. He plays Kamari. Who's that? Who's Kamari? I don't know. Okay.

It's a whole new world. Okay. We can't even compare. Another out of presentation change that it is rumored the movie is making that I think transitions well into another thing we need to talk about is the song Be Prepared is allegedly not going to be in the new movie. Oh. It is like the one major song from the original that as far as I can find has been cut. That's the best song.

Caitlin, that's the one you want to last three hours and 14 minutes. We'll be zero minutes. I'm so sorry. And I think that that is a very interesting of this moment kind of choice to make. There's a Slate article written by Aisha Harris about this creative decision. It was written last year, so it's possible that maybe they just didn't announce it, but they released the track list really early, and Be Prepared is not on there. And it is interesting because that scene, there's a bunch of whatever you can go into the clickbait universe

and find the side-by-side comparisons of like lenny riefenstahl uh movies of nazi soldiers and a lot of the shots are very deliberately identical and the hyenas marching and you know the whole bit like it is pulled directly from this like very famous german World War II propaganda movie, which in 1994, I guess, was a creative decision that wasn't very controversial. But now that... And Aisha Harris argues in this article that she thinks it's a bad choice to cut this number and kind of Disney hedging their bets.

Now, I mean, Nazis are out. Exactly. We might as well give them a number. But she kind of makes the argument, and I agree with what she's saying, is that Disney is so wanting to please everyone that in 94 saying Nazis are bad was not as hot a take as it is in fucking 2019.

And so that is most likely the reason why the song was cut. The reason that they gave was the, I don't know the name of the actor who's playing Scar now. Nazis ain't gonna come to see some black people read lines in Africa anyway. I don't know. You might as well.

I think I'll mispronounce it, but Chiwetel? So the argument used was that he's not a singer by trade and Jeremy Irons was a singer so they can't have it.

But clearly, Disney pulls this shit all the time. Exactly. Like if the actor can't sing, you hire another actor. You hire a black boy. But they cut this, they cut the song.

And yeah, I think that that's kind of a, first of all, one of my favorite songs in the movie. But also, it's just like, if a Disney movie can give some anti-Nazi messaging, now would be a great time for it. Now is the time. Very appropriate. But yeah. Speaking of Scar, should we talk about the queer coding of this and all Disney villains? I was going to say, do you know that James Adomian bit? James Adomian, a very funny comedian who talks.

He has a very wonderful bit a few years back, but I think it might still be in rotation. Yeah, pretty much what you're going to say how like all disney villains are gay yes it's oh yeah every we'll link that in the description because it's like one of my favorite jupiter dummy bits ever uh yes i mean scar is one of the more notorious uh queer coded villains where of course you know coding it's never explicitly stated but through the way the character speaks moves etc other coded queer disney villains include ursula uh jafar jafar include where else who else do we got radigan rod again from uh the villain from great mouse detective the the uh governor radcliffe from Pocahontas. I mean, most Disney Renaissance movies follow this exact formula and have a queer coded villain, which, you know, it's like it conflates queerness with evil. There's a lot of reclaiming that the queer community has done of the Disney villains. And if you go to like, they have Disney villain nights at Disneyland.

And I had a friend in Boston who would travel in a pack of 10 gay men, would fly to Florida to go to Disney. Like there's a lot of reclaiming that's taking place. But it is, I mean, it's, you know, a mostly straight group of writers, creators, animators demonizing queer people. And since these movies are intended for children, children get the wrong messages about queer

people, even if they don't realize what's happening. Their brains are interpreting it. We talked about this a lot on the Aladdin episode, so I recommend revisiting that if you want more. And then another thing that this and other Disneyney movies do is that they the way they're designed is that they tend to be darker where all the lions except for scar are like beige yellowy tan honey color right and then scar has much darker fur, a much darker mane. This also happens again with Radigan, which I think honestly, Great Mouse Detective might be my favorite Disney movie.

It also happens with Ursula. It was Ursula. She's purple and everyone else is white. And canonically, like they don't do they don't fuck with this in the in the Disney movie. But canonically, she's supposed to be King Triton's sister. Right. Oh, is she? Yeah. Maybe's sister. Right. Oh, is she? Yeah. Maybe half sister? Yeah.

Who knows? Either way, like that is fully at play in that movie as well. Yeah. And also it's all black. She's rotund, which is supposed to be bad. You know what I mean?

Like everything. Right. With Ursula. Right. The heroes in Disney movies are animated and designed to be traditionally attractive by Western beauty standards. They're thin, they're white or light skinned or furred. They are young and pretty and all this stuff and straight while the villains, especially from this kind of specific era, and then even before that, were made to look darker. They were queer coded. They had different body shapes and sizes and just, yeah, all. Just demonizing anything that isn't.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And again, this is like because there has been a process of reclaiming these characters over time. It is like a complicated issue. There is another piece that I read in Into that argues because it does seem like an adaptation choice is that they're doing away with the queer coding for Scar. And this author argues that that is sort of erasure of the only visibly queer character in the movie. And they're making him a straight villain,

which means that there's no queer characters. And it's, I mean, it makes Simba gay. But Scar doesn't have sexuality. No. But to have him not play those stereotypes in a nefarious way. Right. Like, that's good erasure to me do you know what i mean

right i think there should be representation of queer characters certainly in disney and all movies every movie should be more queer but again so i'm saying like an adaptation you can find another character to have some visibility to it doesn't even have to be scar but like it's almost like whenever disney tries to do it it's so corny and disingenuous like with fucking lefou in beauty and the beast where he's seen like dancing with another man and they're like we did it we did it visibility win and it's just like make yeah make like timon have a meerkat husband, right? And then like them be like really happy together. Or just let Timon and Puma be married.

Some interspecies love. That would be so funny. I mean, they are like literally life partners. Put them in Boca together. They're in Boca. They've got a condo. They're common law. Yeah, that's their life.

Obviously. A meerkat and a warthog aren't just like, they didn't just fall together. They're common law. Yeah, that's their life. Obviously. They're not, a meerkat and a warthog aren't just like, they didn't just fall together. No. They found each other. Yeah, I think that, I think it's explained

in Lion King 1 and a Half. How they first met and fell in love. Okay. But yeah, I mean, the queer coding debate is a complicated one

and I mean, I don't envy the writer who's in the position of deciding what stays and what goes. But there it is. Scar is a heavily queer coded villain. For sure. Is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?

I think that the last thing I had was the Elton John of it all. I was going to ask you that when we're talking about this kind of queerness and characters. And you know, of course, to me, I can't even think about Lion King now without thinking about the Broadway show. Right, you know, and that being so linked. So please, Jamie, what I'm saying is I'm ready. Oh, I guess I will. I just wanted to, I guess, get everyone's opinions, because I don't even know how I mean, I know how I feel generally.

But this so the Elton John, being the the composer and then Tim Rice does the lyrics. Elton John is a queer artist, but they're both white guys who do and credits and getting the Oscars and getting the majority for paying tribute to a lot of the musical tradition but it's still ultimately two white guys who are getting the credit for it. I don't know. Is there a Paul Simon's Graceland? Yes.

You know what I mean? We could have just put Graceland under Lion King and it would have totally worked. Yeah. Well, white people like working with other white people. Do you know what I mean? Like, if Disney's going to pick, they're like, who's someone we know? Okay, I don't want to feel uncomfortable today.

I don't want to have to worry about saying the wrong word. Just give me a white person. Call Elton John. Someone where I just don't want to be scared. You know what I mean? Or, like, I don't want to have to engage in whatever it could possibly be. You know what I mean? Like, whatever it could possibly be.

Which is. Who knows? But, I mean, he's a fucking brilliant musician, though he's great i mean i saw rocket man oh okay another write-off another write-off i loved rocket did you i didn't see it but i don't like biopics really i'm a taryn edgerton stan though i like him i think he's like a cutie patootie only for i did see all the both kingsmen if if for Teheran Edgerton's thighs, you gotta see Rocketman. Really? Are they on display?

The whole time. He's wearing shorts for a lot of the movie and you're just like I just want to be closer to them than I am right now. Can You Feel the Love Tonight. Great song. Very sexy. Timon and Pumbaa's parts of that song are basically about how a man entering into a relationship with a woman will ruin your life.

Yeah. Because women are the old ball and chain. They're just like, your carefree bachelor life is going to be fucked up if you go off with Nala. The lyrics, the song closes with in short i'm not gonna say it is doomed and then they burst into tears so the thought of like their single male wine friend like getting a girlfriend ruins them i love it but also you have to realize it has been a decade of a codependent dynamic.

It's literally been just the three of them hunting up grubs. And you're like, yeah, I get why this is hard for you both. They haven't made a friend. Simba. I almost view them as empty nesters in that song. It's like if your parents are

still somehow together when you leave the nest, right? And they're like, oh, now we have to just talk to each other again. That was so telling, Jamie. If your parents are still somehow together when you leave the nest. I was like, personal backstory.

Which I share. Let's unpack that. Let's unpack it. But yeah, they're going gonna just hang out together again they're so quick to go back to put themselves in harm's way when they're like no the third friend

well of course they want to go to Pride Rock because of their queer pride it's all symbolism symbolism symbolism I'm leaving I'm leaving. Episode title.

I'm leaving. I'm honestly excited to see the new movie. I am so whatever on reboot culture, but I am excited to see it. I don't really need to see Lions. If they remade it with people, I'd be interested. But for some reason, i'm not here for like like i saw the animatronic lion and it was like like movies where it's like cool technology yeah i don't feel like that's like that for me does not draw me into a movie usually well what originally made me when it looked like it may be a shot for shot remake i was

fully out but it like at least they're making some changes because I'm more attached to Lion King than any of the re-releases that have come out so far but Miles was showing me upstairs some of the early like Beyonce as adult Nala and it looks like a YouTube dub of like CGI lions

with a celebrity like it doesn't look real yeah that's what I mean and then like again the things we can do, like what I love about old Disney is that like people drew that shit. Yeah. Now it's like you got 10 computer programs. You know, obviously I know

there's some computer involved, especially in the stampede scene and some of the bigger scenes. You guys do not come for me. I'm saying it was all fucking hand drawn. But what I am saying is you see the artist's hand at work and you can like see like it's just even like in just there's no uncanny valley and like the expressions that the animals

have where i i'm worried that it'll be uncanny valley city with this new lion king totally i i mean i don't know i i want it to be good. I don't like Uncanny Valley. The only person I feel should be able to direct motion capture movies is Andy Serkis. And I am a big Andy Serkis stan. If you haven't seen his Jungle Book movie that's on Netflix because it got pushed to Netflix because Disney pushed up the release of their shittier Lion King directed by Jon Favreau. Johnny Favreau. So, you know, Andy Serkis, he's Gollum. He understands mocap and he can make it look amazing. He is the entire planet of the apes.

It's just like, let him handle this and let's just, let's move on. And also this Lion King remake is a half hour longer than the original. So everyone, I feel like the more money they spend on. Also, this Lion King remake is a half hour longer than the original. Yes. So everyone, I feel like the more money they spend on the movie, the longer they think it needs to be. Right.

If that makes any sense. You know what I mean? Don't make a kid's movie two hours long. Yeah. I was watching it. I was like, oh, it's like an hour, 29 minutes or something. The original. And I was like, there it is.

There it is. And even then I felt the first 30 minutes was too long i was like get to it i will last thing i'll say is that pumbaa when they're all talking about what they think stars are pumbaa says that he thinks they are giant balls of gas burning billions of miles away pumbaa is a warthog in STEM. He knows. He knows. Pumbaa knows. Okay. Does this

movie pass the Bechdel test? No. Nope. Nope. There is a very quick exchange in the very beginning where there is nala's mom so simba's like credited with the name she's credited with the name but we don't know it but simba's like

hey nala let's go to the watering hole and then nala's mom's like all right i'll let you go what do you think sarabi and then sarabi says something like yeah i guess it's okay but yeah we never learn nala's mom's name and also the context of the conversation is can nala go with a boy to the watering hole and they lied and they're going to the elephant graveyard yeah so i think super doesn't pass the vital test yeah there so should have been a scene between like either young nala and sarabi like after they learn about mufasa and simba's death and or nala as an adult with sarabi talking about like hey let's kill scar we can do this or like i'm gonna go try to find help here's my plan for us yeah if you don't hear from me in two sundowns i'm dead right so yeah that's

a no on the bechdel test yeah let's rate the movie zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women yikes it's not too good sorry to say the women are strong yes though they don't do much with that strength they don't yeah they don't get to really do anything. Half a nip? Yeah, I think it's somewhere around there. I'm feeling half a nip. Which is too bad, because the potential for better use of the female characters, they're there.

They're physically there. What about the sequel where it's a daughter? The daughter, I don't remember it enough in detail. I know a lot of the story revolves around a forbidden romance with the Romeo lion. Of course. Because if there's a girl character, there's got to be a boy character who she wants to kiss. I mean, and Kiara, I don't know. She may have many wonderful qualities that escape me.

I don't remember. Katie Golden has something to say about Lion King 2. Also, she says says i have more beef with lion king 2 in this movie kovu scar's son oh so scar did when does scar get a son i don't know okay well or he was like part of scar's 10 he had 10 years to fuck he lost his virginity kovu teaches kiara which is simba, to hunt, which is ridiculous because females are the more proficient and more frequent hunters, although males do hunt some. So, yeah, that's what Katie had to say. So thank you very much once again.

Thanks, Katie. For all of that. And listen to Creature Feature for more animal. And also Couples Therapy. Yes. If we're plugging podcasts, I am going to pipe the fuck up. Oh, of course. So yeah, I think like, yeah, half a nip for me.

Half a nip. Kick it back to Young Nala. Same. Yeah, plug your stuff. Naomi, thanks for being here. Oh, thanks, friends. You know, Couples Therapy is a podcast on the same network as bechtel cast you

should be able to find it drop every tuesday we have comics doing sets together about their relationship kaylin jamie we're on a recent episode oh yeah reading their friend fan fiction so you can start there if you need something familiar and then work your way out yes uh you can follow us at bechtelcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. We've got our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon, which is $5 a month and gets you two bonus episodes every single month. This month in July, we've got America July, which includes American Pie and American Psycho. So tune in for all that piping hot content. Oh, yes.

Cool. Yeah, and then you can check out our Tee Public store for all of our merch and so forth. And we are going to be in London on September 1st doing two shows Brave and The Favourite and I will... Oh, I thought you were saying we were brave for doing two shows. We're going to London? Brave.

So close to Brexit? Very brave. And so yeah, if you live in the UK, come to that show. Yes, yes please. More details for that are on our website, Bechdelcast.com. And that's where you can find other information about other upcoming live shows, including individual ones that both I and Jamie are doing. Come to Edinburgh Fringe. Yes.

And other than that, I think we just should all remember about the circle of life, how it moves us all. I love how the opening sequence of this movie is like, Memento mori, kids. You will one day die. You're like, A lot of hard truths in Lion King. A lot of hard truths. Love it.

Well, you're all going to die someday. We all are. Thanks for blowing one of your last hours on the Bechtelcast. Okay. Good night. Bye. Good night. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm

I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help

you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore.

The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current.