The Bechdel Cast - Little Women with Debra DiGiovanni

Episode Date: December 26, 2019

Little Caitlin and Little Jamie and special guest Little Debra DiGiovanni get together to discuss Little Women (1994). (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @DebraDiGiovanni on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Hey, fam, I'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robay. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side, the'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robay. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side,

the podcast from Hello Sunshine that's guaranteed to light up your day. Check out our recent episode with Grammy Award-winning rapper Eve on motherhood and the music industry. No, it's a great, amazing, beautiful thing. There's moms in all industries, very high stress industries

that have kids all across this world. Why can't it be music as well? Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, Amy Robach here along with TJ Holmes, and we have a very exciting announcement to make to all of you.

We are now going to be coming to you Monday through Friday for a new part of our Amy and TJ franchise, if you will, The Morning Run. We're going to help listeners navigate the busy news cycle and the historic political season that the country is facing, and we're going to do this now each and every day. Listen to Morning Run on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts jamie yes kaylen we've got an episode coming up for everyone about little women 1994 very excited but first we wanted to tell you about a tour we're taking in january 2020 i can't believe it. We're doing three cities to start. January 22nd, we'll be in San Francisco for SF Sketch Fest at the Gateway Theater.

And we're going to be covering the social network because we're covering kind of moody, broody, dark movies on this tour. And wow, how appropriate that we're doing the social network in San Francisco, the tech capital of the United States of America. You're acting like we didn't do it on purpose. Ooh.

Wow. Wait, how smart of us. Then on January 24th, we will be in New York City, never heard of it, for the Brooklyn Podcast Festival. Yes. At the Bell House. We're returning to the Bell House, and we'll be covering Black Swan. Wait, Caitlin, that movie takes place in new york

oh the amount of foresight we've given this it's like two to three percent and then on january 26th we'll be in philadelphia at good good comedy theater returning one of our favorite places and we'll be covering the sixth sense hold on where does that movie take... It's incredible. You can get more details and ticket links on our website at Bechdelcast.com and click on the live tab. And I will also be doing a small tour of those same cities solo in February.

So go to those shows too. Oh my gosh, where do people go to find information about that? They'll also be listed on Bechdelcast.com or you could go to Jamie Loftus' Innocent.com Incredible you could go to jamie loftus's innocent.com incredible yeah well yeah see you there everybody oh and uh one last thing i have a side pod ever heard of it coming out on january 1st uh it's called my year in mensa so it's based on i mean caitlin you were present for all all of the trauma, but it's about the 18 months that I spent in Mensa, where I started by

taking the test as a joke, and then ended up basically getting attempted red pills by a sort of sinister dark Mensa Facebook group, and ended up going to Phoenix and getting yelled at for three consecutive days. But it's about my experience, and it's also about the history of IQ organizations and kind of that sinister backstory. So if that's something that you've seen me tweeting incessantly about for the last year and a half and you're interested, it's called My Ear in Menta. You can find it on all of your podcasting platforms.

And I hope you'll listen. It was a nightmare. And if you listen, it wouldn't have been a waste of time. All right. That's all I had to say. Great. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. I'm Jamie Loftus. Whoa. Whoa. Sorry. Are you okay? I don't know. Something's going on with me.

It's all right. My body's been really reacting in crazy ways to almost everything this past week. I'm so sorry. No, it's exciting. It's exciting. I'm on the edge of my seat. Who knows what will happen next? And that conversation passed the Bechdel test?

Yeah, the fickleness of the human body. It's a genderless discussion. Yeah, true. Because what we do here on this podcast is talk about the representation. Oh my God, now I'm sick. about the representation. Oh, my God. Now I'm sick. It's contagious. Also, I'm so sorry.

It's contagious. You'll lose your ability to speak within three minutes. The representation of women in film. Not just women. Also women that are maybe not so big. Like little women? Women that are maybe not as big as you would expect. They'll be big someday.

Sure. Except for the one that dies, of course. Oh, no. Spoiler alert. One never gets big. One stays little in our memories forever. Uh-huh. True.

Anyway. So these women, and sometimes they're little, are what we talk about on the podcast, using the Bechdel test or sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. And that, of course, requires that two little women who have names. Who have little names. Little names. Most of them are nicknames. True. They mostly go by nicknames.

Uh-huh. And they must speak to each other about something other than a man named laurie i know and it is hard not to i understand why it's difficult to not talk about laurie sometimes yeah i understand laurie is my mom's name i know i was thinking that i was like there's what's your mom's take on laurie how is how does she feel he is a reflection on the Lori community? You know, I'd have to ask her. I don't know.

I should have done my research. I need Lori's take. I'll text her right now. Yes, I would love to hear. So yes, we are talking about Little Women. We had to. We must. The new one's about to drop.

So we're talking about the one from 94 directed by jillian armstrong that's the you know the famous winona rider christian bale susan sarandon ever heard of her yes claire dane yes eric stoltz is in the movie kirsten dunst is in the movie another woman is in the movie and we don't know who she is but we like her work oh in this movie meg meg yeah i never saw her again i do but she is alive trini alvarado yes she was she was so talented everyone in this movie so talented everyone in the new movie so talented except for maybe emma watson who is uh who's american accent did you hear her American accent? It's not great. And there's no excuse because Saoirse Ronan's doing just fine.

Yeah. And Florence Pugh's doing just fine. And then Emma Watson's turn to speak. And you're like, well, maybe let's scale back the part. But she's nice. These are my little takes. Anyways. Little takes corner.

We've got a guest. She's the best. The best guest the the best she's a three-time returning guest elite yes top tier top tier absolutely with uh naomi and caitlyn gill oh my gosh so you're in good company and you're always're always one of our holiday movie season guests. It is true, isn't it? Because it's been Love Actually and Die Hard. Oh my gosh, yeah. And now... And Little Women does, I mean, obviously has a very Christmas vibe.

There's a couple Christmases. Yeah, there is. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. And it's our dear friend, comedian Debra DiGiovanni. Hello. Debra.

Hiya. Welcome back. Good to see you. Hiya. Welcome back. Good to see you. Thank you for being here. I'm not supposed to say guys anymore, am I? Oh, I know. I'm trying to train myself out of that. That one's going to be very difficult for me.

There's been a couple words in 2019 where it's just like, oh, we're slowly working. It's interesting watching a word slowly just work its way out of vernacular. And I'm with it. Yeah. I totally accept that. But that one's in there. It's a tricky one. You gotta catch yourself a couple times. Exactly, every once in a while. I've been saying

y'all more than I thought I ever would. I've been saying humans. Hello, humans. That's a nice, round way of covering everybody, hopefully. I like gang. Gang's good. Team also very

hello team for a good coach energy to the stage well in a fight or whatever it's just an ever mannered uh energy to the stage yes oh in uh western pennsylvania where i'm from you say You say yunz. Yunz? Yunz. Yunz. How do you spell that? Y-apostrophe-U-N? Y-O-U-N-Z. But then there's another version of it, yunz, which is Y-I-N-Z. But what's that for? Like U-1s. I like it. Oh.

Yunz. I like that. Yunz. I'm trying to think of a Canadian one. It reminds me of how I try to say Ewan McGregor's name oh my gosh Ewan McGregor Ewan McGregor

we are I think Canadian we're very big on dude okay dude is a very and that is a genderless

yeah dude is a I think people think of it as a masculine term but in Canada it's super not and it's not D-U-D-E

in Canada it's D-O-O-D that's how dude like we really hold the o dude yeah i call you i say dude a lot i like it i'm not proud of myself but anyway it's good to be here yes we thank you for being a genderless dude yeah little dudes little dudes little dudes little kids gerwig where were you on that one

so we had thoughts you had thoughts about this before we even started. Yes. I don't agree with any of you. Oh, no. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so what is your history with Little Women? Little Women, I definitely read it. I remember reading it.

And you know, it's so funny. You know when there's just a little snippet in time that just sticks with you? Mine is Friends, the show Friends. Sure. That's, you know, it was the 90s. That was, I was a young woman. That was, it just really stuck with me. And the entire time I kept thinking of the episode

where Joey and Rachel. Rachel are reading. Yes. I remember this very distinctly. Does Beth really die? I mean, that's all I kept thinking the whole time I was watching it I remember Joey

being confused too about Joe and Laurie exactly thinking Joe is a man and Laurie is a woman yeah but that's what I kept thinking I will say

I mean I do I loved the book I did I mean I haven't read it in a long time I was a young girl when I read it I loved it

I was a little woman when I read it but I didn't love this version of the movie and here's why. Oh, Winona Ryder. And I have always loved Winona Ryder in everything. This, I couldn't take.

It was too precocious. It was too like, she ran everywhere, and we get it. Jo was a natural girl, and blah, blah. I couldn't take it. I had to watch it in like three parts because I couldn't sit. I was like, must. And Kristen Dent's too as well, as a child.

Petulance. But the movie itself is lovely. I didn't love this version. I do love Susan Sarandon. But I didn't love this version. But the new one, I am jazzed for the new one. Oh, yes. Jazzed for the new one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, of course, how many versions of this movie have they done? Several. A lot. There was, oh, I have a list. Oh, wow. I'm interested.

There was, the first one I believe was in 1933 or 4. Stop. Of course, of course. Why would I think anything other than that? Okay, so 1933, that one is Katharine Hepburn playing Jo. There's one in 1949, that was a big one. June Allison, Margaret O'Brien, Elizabeth Taylor,abeth taylor janet lee oh my isn't it i should watch one of the old ones maybe seriously that sounds fun i've seen i think i've seen the 1949 with elizabeth but uh and then the 94 one then there

was a mini series that came out last year on b BBC, right? Oh, yes, yes. Was not received maybe very well. It was a modern take. Oh, okay, yeah. What about Kate? Wasn't Kate Winslet in something? No. Am I making that up? Has she been in every other period piece but this?

Probably. Well, she's been, it's been a, so that's just the times it's been movies. It's been a TV series in 1958, 1970, 1978. Wow. And 2017. Wow. And an anime in, and 2017. Wow. And an anime in 1981 and 1987. So there's

infinity adaptations of this book. That is a lot for one story. It is a lot. It's an American classic. It's an American tale. Which is an American classic. Yes, I mean, there's no denying.

For sure. Makes me cry every time. No, I'm very excited for the new one. I enjoyed this one. I read Little Women as a little woman as well. Wow. They had like a promotion. Our local newspaper was like selling copies for like $2.

And there were these beautiful like hardcover copies of all these classic books. So I got Little Women. I remember liking it but not liking the second half, which I still feel basically the same way about. I was like just going back through like the adaptation changes. They trimmed a lot of the fat for this movie. Oh, yes. Because there's a lot of the way that Joe's character lands in the book. I remember just being like, really? And they avoid a lot of the fat for this movie because there's a lot of the way that joe's character lands in the book i remember just being like really and they avoid a lot of stuff in this movie that i

appreciated i don't think i i'd seen this adaptation with winona rider i think once and i thought it was boring and long and this time i thought it was just a little boring and long but i liked it and i cried yeah yeah yeah i just i just i just remember just a little boring and long, but I liked it and I cried. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember as a little girl reading it and being so mad that Joe and Laurie didn't end up together. I was so angry. I have a lot of theories and then also some context about all this. The Louisa May Alcott, I'm so excited for Context Corner today because it is fascinating. Louisa May Alcott really couldn't give a shit about her fans, which is kind of funny.

My history is that I had only seen this movie for the first time like two years ago. Another one that I was like, oh, we'll cover it eventually. So I'll just like watch it and like have it in my brain space. And I remember thinking like, wow, this is like far more of a feminist text than I was expecting for something that was adapted from something that was written in the 19th century. Yeah. So that was I was like, I wonder like how much of that of the feminism we see in this adaptation is actually in the book. So I started reading the book about two weeks ago. Oh, wow. I got three quarters of the feminism we see in this adaptation is actually in the book. So I started reading the book about two weeks ago. Oh, wow.

I got three quarters of the way through. So sorry, fans, I haven't finished it. I don't know what happens in the end. But I did read a large chunk of it. And there's like kind of feminist speeches that will happen or like monologues in the movie that are not in the book but uh i would argue that there's a version of feminism in in the book for its time there definitely is there i mean yeah i guess i'll just save it for louise's context corner because she's she's so interesting but there's a whole chapter in that book on like sleep training a baby did

you get to that chapter oh no i remember that very clearly and i'm going to my mom and being like what is this and then she was just like maybe skip it i don't i think it's like meg is like sleep training her babies and there's so much attention to detail oh i got how she did it i got to the chapter where she was like, I can't wait to be a really, really good housewife. And then like she has difficulty executing that. And like she has a hard time being a housewife. Also her husband's a piece of garbage. He sucks.

He's awful. It made him much nicer in this film. Yeah. Much nicer. I mean, I haven't read the book. I would say almost 40 years I haven't. No, probably like 35 years I haven't read it. So I can't. Beth still book. I would say almost 40 years I haven't. No, probably like 35 years I haven't read it. So I can't.

Beth still dies. I've just died. Beth for sure kicks it every time. Yeah, every time. Can't change that. Nobody writes on that one. What if this time Beth lives? No, it is.

But I really, I like this movie a lot. Yeah, I don't know. I really like it. Christian Bale is fabulous in this movie. He is. He's quite good. I'm excited to see Timothee Chalamet play the same part that Christian Bale once did. I could already see him doing it.

Even just from seeing previews, already facial expressions. I was like, oh yeah, this is... That scene in the trailer, I can't wait to see Joe dump him. He's not going to take it well. He never takes it well in classic horror. I love when he doesn't take it well well do you know what i mean yeah he does that really good yes and this one i think broken heart works for him picks up a backpack really like oh and he's like i'm going to europe you're like good for you

yeah rich asshole okay so should i dive into the recap yeah yeah all right so it is civil war era new england i think they're in concord massachusetts baby uh we meet walden pond we meet the march family they've fallen on hard times but they also live in a very large house and have a servant so sure that's hard times i guess yeah um joe march is winona rider's character she's our narrator she is a writer she has an older sister meg a younger sister beth that's claire danes and then little amy is kirsten dunst and their mother marmee marmee susan so that's the name for mom is that what it is yeah they call her marmee okay sick but her actual name is abigail in the in this movie not in the book they don't

give her a name in the book right i think yeah um one of the one of the cool i really like the writer of this movie who's also producing the new movie yes which is and she's zoe kazan's mom oh really isn't that wild wow she also wrote practical magic yes and she wrote uh matilda oh okay so that's the march family it's christmas morning uh their neighbors the hummel family are poor german immigrants and they don't have really anything to eat so the girls or the little women bring their christmas feast to the hummels and their other neighbors an older gentleman named mr lawrence and his grandson christian bale notice this hot uh they notice this generous deed that the March family does. Yes.

And let's see, Joe and Meg. I mean, there's kind of like, there's not a streamlined plot. It's just a bunch of like little vignettes. We see them. They're all, they've like contribute to this little newspaper that they make. They dress up as men and like give themselves fake names then joe and meg get invited to a ball or something a debutante party i don't even know yeah there's the scene where joe accidentally burns meg's hair off uh and then at the ball joe runs into christian bale

who goes by laurie even though his name is Theodore Lawrence. But also sometimes she calls him Teddy. She calls him Teddy, I know, yeah. Yeah. But they become friends. And soon he's friends with the whole March family. And we also meet Lori's tutor, John Brooke, who will later marry Meg. A loser alert.

He's played by Eric Stoltz. And then we meet Aunt March. She is their rich great aunt who Joe works for and reads to. There's a Lyme incident with Amy at school. Lori's hanging out with all of them. And then Meg

and Joe go to the theater with him and John Brooke. And that upsets Amy because she wants to go to the theater too. So out of spite, she burns Joe's manuscript. I mean, that's, wow. Like that doesn't equal at all. Like that's not even remotely equal on a level. But Amy is a child.

She's a little, a little, little woman. She's the littlest woman of all. And she does apologize right away. But, oh boy, you woman. She's the littlest woman of all. Yes. And she does apologize. But, oh, boy, you're like. Can you imagine? I felt that. Oh, God. I think we all did.

I think all writers were just like. Yes. Oh, my God. And, like, that kind of sibling rage, there's no rage. Oh, yes. Sibling rage. Oh, my God. So Joe's like, I'm never talking to you again.

But then Amy falls through some thin ice. And Joe's like, well, I talking to you again. But then Amy falls through some thin ice. And Joe's like, well, I guess I can't hate my sister who almost died. So they make up. Right. And then the family gets word that their father, who is away fighting in the Civil War, has been wounded and is in a hospital in Washington, D.C. So John Brooke, who is in love with Meg, offers to escort Marmee there. And Joe chops off her hair and sells it to help Marmee pay her way to Washington. Iconic. Making her the baldest woman in charge. Exactly.

And then she also sells one of her stories not long after that. So now she's a real author. And the little women, while Marmee is away, the little women are trying to get by. And then Beth goes to help the Hummel family. But their baby is sick with scarlet fever and gets Beth sick as well. And it seems like she might die. But then she pulls through. Just in time for Christmas.

Just in time for Christmas, which is when their father returns home in this big Christmas miracle surprise. Everyone's happy. Then we cut to four years later. Which is at this point in the book where the original book stops and the sequel to the book starts. Yes. So the second half of Little Women is actually called Good Wives. And that's why the second half of the movie is maybe not so good and if i'm not mistaken is there another sequel called like joe's boys that also is tacked on

that can't i don't know if i don't think that's included in the little women okay i'm pretty sure it's little women which is like all the fun parts that people remember good wives which is all the sucky parts and beth dies which is a sucky part but a memorable sucky part right and louisa man alcott like completely denounced the second like good wives she was like it wasn't good right i needed yes i read money okay i love that honesty we also hated it i concur yeah so speaking of the good wives the good wives the good wives Meg marries

John Brooke Lori proposes to Joe and she's like no way Jose we would be terrible spouses for each other

and he's all butt hurt and he runs off takes his backpack yeah his Jansport backpack and he's like I'm out of here

and he's like I'm gonna be a musician. You're like, no, you're not. Right. And then he isn't. And then Jo decides to go to New York to pursue her writing more seriously. And there she meets Friedrich Baer,

played by Gabriel Byrne. Yeah. Yeah, he's very handsome. So hot. But also like 40 years older than her yeah a lot older than her and the king of negging he's just yeah he's like your writing stinks so and then he's like i'm so sorry and then four days later he's like but seriously your writing's bad and then i was like ah could you not yeah i i but i was getting some strong Alfred Molina vibes.

So was I. Could have easily been. Easily been Alfred. They're definitely in the same little pack, right? He had to have. Like they might be friends in real life. Right. He had to have been on the list. Gabriel's from Ireland, I believe.

And so neighbors. Yeah. Yeah. They're neighbors. That's like being like, you know, Arizona. Neighbors. Neighbors to California. Yeah, sure. Ish. of neighbors yeah they're neighbors that's like being like you know arizona neighbors to california yeah sure ish uh so joe's been struggling to get anything published but he's like he encourages her

to write from the heart because she's writing stories about like vampires and gore and stuff and he's like but none of you is in these stories so then then she's like, OK, fine. I'll write from what I know. But before that, they kiss a little bit. And then also in Europe, Laurie is drunk now. Yeah. And he is trying to get with Amy, who is a little bit older of a little woman. She's yeah, she's 17 in the back half. Yeah.

Which is what in the Civil War era? That's basically 35. True true you don't live as long and then beth's health takes a turn for the worse so joe goes back but she's been quite she's been frail the whole time um claire danes i think speaks maybe 14 words the entire doesn't get a lot she really doesn't historic beth never gets yeah much in the book either i think she's like intentionally underwritten to be more of a god-like ascension because you just you don't learn about anything about her she likes but yes you're devastated when she when she passes she even in the her death scene with joe kind of also cops to being a poorly written character

where she's like you all had goals and I just sort of never did. It's true. It's a very sad speech, not in like emotional, like just like, oh. I never even sort of grew up or tried, and you're like,

oh, okay, great. It was like, thanks. I was bawling. It's so sad. It's like, I don't really care about this character, and yet here I am, ugly crying by myself in my room

so sad so she dies okay r.i.p beth and uh joe asks laurie who is still in europe uh to return home to be with the march family during this difficult time so laurie shows up and he's like hey joe let me introduce you to my his wife your sister amy and she's like oh hey, Joe, let me introduce you to my, his wife, your sister, Amy. And she's like, oh, cool. Joe handles this gracefully. Really, really. She, I, I would be secretly like, seriously. I mean, seriously.

I rescued you from, from the ice. I'm going to let you freeze. And then you married my best friend. I mean, seriously. And not just like, I mean, the love of her life like really here's my theory i think and i i'm not the first one to say this but i'm pretty sure joe is a lesbian yes fair yeah yeah so like her getting with uh friedrich which does happen at the end yeah and even more so in the book like the movie cuts off where it's just like she's like come be a teacher at my school and then they kiss but at the end of the book off where it's just like she's like, come be a teacher at my school. And then they kiss.

But at the end of the book or maybe it's in the second sequel, they like have children together. They have children. And in the book, she starts a school for boys only. You're like, what? That doesn't even make sense with the character. Yeah. It's just like for anyone who wants to learn. Yeah. If you're a boy.

If you're a white boy. But yeah, no, Joe's kind of a queer icon. Yeah. In many ways. Yes. But I think Friedrich in this movie is her beard, maybe. Not sure. Anyway, they get together.

And this is also when Joe has she's written about her life and her sisters and submitted it. And Friedrich's like, he helps her get it published. And then he like drops off a galley of the book or something. I don't know. And she's like, oh, hey, let's be together. And he's like, didn't you marry someone though? And she's like, no, I'm not married. He's like, okay, let's kiss.

And then that is the end of the movie. He's like walking away with kiss and then that is the end of the movie he's like walking away with a little bindle at the end like this is rather dramatic i have nothing literally like that's all he has my hands are empty except for my little satchel over my shoulder but a wee bindle and and love in my heart caitlin yes i mean weddings aren't for Joe, but guess who they are for? Meg. Meg. And eventually Amy as well. Uh-huh.

Which brings me to what I wanted to bring up naturally, which is talking about Zola. Meg and Amy wish they could use this. Zola makes wedding planning easier and less stressful with wedding websites, registry invites, and a guest list manager all in one place they could have invited all of concord that's true and they couldn't because they didn't have access to zola it has free wedding website designs hundreds of gorgeous designs for every style you can create your site in minutes with a custom URL and password protection, Meg. You can also get an online RSVP page or guests can shop your registry right on your site.

And speaking of that registry, you know, the little women, again, there's so much talk about how they've fallen on hard times and they wish they could have art supplies and yarn. A cure for whatever Beth is dying of. Put that in her registry. The little women wanted a bunch of stuff. And if they had just had Zola, they could have added it to their registry. And Lori's uncle could have just hooked it up. Or grandfather.

His grandfather could have just, you know, been like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. He gives them a piano. I'm for crying out loud. But anyway, Zola has the highest rated registry of all time. Oh my stars and stripes. No, you can register for gifts, experiences and honeymoon funds. Oh, that's great. That's what I would want. You can add gifts from other stores. You can sync with existing registries. I was on zola.com checking out what's available

and i was just shopping away because you know women be shopping women be shopping women be getting married i was truly like wow i wish i was getting married right now so i could like set up a registry and get all the awesome stuff i would put a piano and a cure for my sister's illness on my registry that's wonderful plus with, you get beautiful, affordable invites and paper. You can shop the whole paper suite at Zola, from save the dates to invites and thank yous, all designed to match your wedding site. You can customize it with your own photos,

which did exist during the Civil War, so they could have used that. They could have used it. Wording and more. They'll help you collect addresses and track online RSVPs with their free guest list manager and they'll address your envelopes for free.

That's amazing. Zola has helped, Caitlin, one million couples get married and they'll help you too. That felt weirdly directed to you. But they will help the grand you as well. Beautiful. So sign up at zola.com slash tbc today

to get your free personalized paper sample then use code save 50 and get 50 off your save the dates that's zola.com slash tbc and use promo code save 50 all. All right. Let's get back to the little women, shall we? I just had to get that out of my system. So did I. It was weighing on my chest. And now we can talk about Joe. Okay, let's do it. Okay.

So what a treat. Where to start? Where to start indeed? Should we start with a little context on this story? I think that's a good idea. And Caitlin, I know you have some context as well. So I didn't know a lot about the history of the writing of this book

or about Louisa May Alcott as a person, but it's all very interesting. There's a lot going on. So this is auto fiction, basically. Like Louisa May Alcott grew up in Concord with three sisters. I mean, the father stuff is kind of written out of Little Women. The father stuff in Louise May Alcott's life is bananas.

It's a lot. But she has three sisters. One of them died at 22. Not from what? Scarlet fever? No. From what is speculated now is that she had severe anxiety and starved herself to death oh there was like it was very dark and very sad uh which has stuff to do with the father so unfortunate okay so the the father

who louisa may alcott stands for her her entire life she never really denounces him she admires him a lot they were very close and louisa may Alcott died two days after her dad passed. And they had like the same birthday. It was a whole lot of stuff. But her dad was a transcendentalist. Yes. Which was a movement around this time, hyper religious. And it was like a lot of very, very famous writers were associated with it.

Henry David Thoreau was involved. Who was the other? Ralph Waldo Emerson is involved. It's like all these famous New England writers of the time were her mentors as she was growing up. But it was her dad was a zealot for sure. He did some good things. He like invented new teaching techniques, but he also forced veganism on his family, which is, you know, in theory, great. Civil War times, really not good. Your family's malnourished. They were like starving.

Your daughter starves to death. So he, you know, was on the right track, but maybe went a little too hard and killed a member of his family. He also didn't like, and this is kind of alluded to in a scene that's not in the book, he wouldn't allow them to wear wool or silk. Basically any basic fabric. Anything linen i think yeah so which is also hard because they didn't have a lot of money and so they were only allowed to wear one fabric so they also didn't

really have anything to wear in addition to really having nothing to eat so he was um he was an intense guy he would leave for years at a time and leave her mother to raise the four little women on her own, which I think is what is supposed to be maybe happening in Little Women. But it's like the dad would just bail for long amounts of time to try to start up a religious camp and would blow all the family's money, putting it into these religious sites. And then he wouldn't have any money to feed or clothe his family. And even if he didn't, he wouldn't. So it was just, it was not a good situation. They were also abolitionists. They were abolitionists.

That's right. They were abolitionists, which is great. Great. They were abolitionists. And their house was a stop on the Underground Railroad. Yes. So they like harbored fleeing slaves to try to get them to safety. They were wokeists. And their house was a stop on the Underground Railroad. Yes. So they like harbored fleeing slaves to try to get them to safety. They were woke as fuck.

I mean, they were vegan in the 1860s. Right. To the detriment of their family. But still. It killed them. They were so woke, it nearly killed them. It was so, yeah, no, they weren't fucking around. They were, and like her, I mean't fucking around. They were. And and like her.

I mean, her father was always very supportive of her writing career. Her mother was one of the first paid social workers in the state of Massachusetts ever. So a good but bizarre family dynamic. dynamic so basically louisa may alcott is joe um in the books which tracks on everything down to um well i mean it's you know queer theory is in its infancy it might it might still not it might even be born not even be born um at the time of this but louisa may alcott unlike joe who she's sort of due to i think publishing notes was told like you gotta get joe married you gotta do it also the fans like wrote in after the first book that she had to marry laurie they were like make joe get married and louise and louise may alcott was like

well i like i guess that she had to for whatever reason she had to get joe married but she like refused to give people the satisfaction of making it laurie which like rules yeah yeah exactly but but she never got married there's some good quotes from her she she identified as a lifelong spinster um and she said uh this was in an interview with louise chandler moulton who we all know and love yes famous she said quote i am more than half persuaded that i am a man's soul put by some freak of nature into a woman's body because i have fallen in love with so many pretty girls and never once the least bit with any man so it's it's mired in you know the vernacular of the time. But she was fairly open about it.

She had an affair with a young Polish man who I guess she based Laurie on at one point. But there's not a ton known about her personal life, except that she never got married, never had a desire to. And she really did not like writing little women. It was the thing she was uh the least proud of sort of like joe which i thought was interesting where joe was writing all these kind of like wacky fantasy stories yeah which louise and may alcott also did under fake names and joe is you know enough men are like just write down your like just write down what happened to your sister died right right about that yeah yeah and i think a similar suggestion was made to louise and man alcott and then it ended up being

this gigantic thing um but but she was never really passionate about writing about herself she just wanted to write about the stuff that joe wanted to write about yeah i think that that's the primer yeah on that about covers what I had too. All right. Yeah, she's a very interesting person. I wish that we knew more about her personal life. She was a little bit cranky. She didn't care for her fans, which is a mood.

You know, that's definitely a decision. But, you know, very talented, ardent feminist, abolitionist, on the right side of history with pretty much every social issue you could be on the right side of at that time. So we love her. Go Louisa May. We love her. God bless her. Oh, wait. Oh, wait.

The last thing I wanted to say was for some reason they did document her last words. And they're very funny. She died of some complications due to meningitis. And her last words were, is it not meningitis? And those are the last. And then she just plopped over dead? She died mid-diagnosis or something. I don't know. I just thought that that was very funny. I was like, wow, move over, Steve Jobs. Is it not meningitis has logged in incredible very cool so because Joe is so closely modeled after the author uh let's maybe start with Joe talking about Joe

yeah I love Joe I love Joe too but um one of the things that i noticed on my first watch of this movie and then obviously again watching it through the lens for the podcast is i was like oh there are all these feminist monologues that again don't really take place in the book but there's like the foundations of them are there and then the the screenwriter robin swikard uh just kind of modernized what louisa may alcott was doing yeah so we get different bits of dialogue or monologues where i think the first one is um marmee is talking about corsets and just sort of like the energy levels of young women and she says uh it is my opinion that young girls are no different than boys in their need for exertion feminine weakness and fainting spells

are the direct result of our confining young girls to the house bent over their needlework in restrictive corsets and then meg noted killjoy is like mom was that necessary like shut up and then and then john uh brooke is right there and he's talking about laurie and he's like one hopes that your girls would be a gentling influence but instead they're like getting him all riled up oh goodness right and then and she's like okay john like basically i was like shut up you dumb idiot john sucks man john like i i couldn't I think Laurie sucks too I don't think Laurie is great I think Laurie at least has redeeming qualities some I want name one thing that's good about John literally nothing and he's way worse than the books too yeah in the books he like yells at Meg

right after she has twins because he's like you're not paying attention to me and then Meg apologizes for two whole chapters oh my god so you know the men don't fare well in this though like there's no we don't have any great examples of men in this in the movie for sure no at least I mean maybe the closest thing is their father, who barely gets any screen time. Who says seven words and is very old to be a soldier. Am I wrong? Is that? By our standards, yes.

But I think in like Civil War era, they would just take anybody. And he could have only been 30. We have no idea. Like literally. Like that's just a very grizzled 30. Yeah. And it sounds like he's like modeled after Louisa May Alcott's father, minus all the cult stuff. But truly, though, none of the guys are great.

No. Laurie's not great. No. Their stolt isn't great. And even Friedrich is not great. They're not great. Right. Yeah.

OK. So let me talk about Laurie for a moment. Because the fans are always like, oh, Joe. I just think Christian Bale is so cute. That's what I can't. This is the only thing keeping him afloat in my mind yeah yeah yeah right yeah but he is a character here's a few examples of why he pretty much sucks um he shows up at that debutante party that meg is at and she's like kind of surprised to see him she's been like dolled up by her rich friends

and she like covers her chest a little bit and then he says like oh no don't cover up there might be one or two gentlemen here who haven't seen your charms yes like excuse me and then he she was like having it's the only time we ever see meg have modest yeah like meg never has fun i'm like this is the first time she's ever had fun and you're right and she expresses like she's like i like the way i look like i like what's happening and then he like makes fun of her dress like whore like yeah yeah he's like a yeah he's an asshole and then what about are we and about telling a child he's going to kiss her i mean not okay i promise i'll kiss you not now i mean it was there was and she was a child she was like seven or something it's that reminded me of i wrote wrote down Taylor Lautner.

Oh, in Twilight? In Twilight, when he's like, I'm going to make out with this baby one day. You're like, ugh. Oh, dear God. Why are we bringing this to the screen? Don't put this into our brain. Yeah. No, thank you.

Why write that down? But that was, that's, I mean, that's, I know it's supposed to be romantic, but ugh. He imprinted on her. Oh, God. Speaking of not good kissing situations in the movie, he loves, yes, yes, yes, he loves to surprise kiss.

Because he first does it, he only, he does it with Joe when he proposes to her after she's been like, I'm not really into this. And he's like, he kisses her. doesn't she she pulls away and then later he tries to kiss amy he like pulls the little veil off of her face he's like i'm reminded of a promise i made to kiss you when you were a child and then taylor she like backs away and starts she like changes the subject so he doesn't get to kiss her but he

like very hard tries to surprise kiss her and then then right after that, he insults her painting. He's like, your paintings are mediocre copies of another man's genius. And then she's like, what are you in a band? And he's like, not really. And then he turns himself around and he's like, all right, fine. I'll go to London and make myself worthy of you. And then next thing we know, they're married and it's just like, I hate how that plays out.

I guess it's expanded on more in the book, but it's also just equally. But I don't remember it. That's the problem. I didn't get to that part. I didn't get there. It's not even worth rehashing. I mean, it was a choice to have him marry Amy.

I'm like, couldn't he just remain friends with the family? Also, Louisa May Alcott's youngest sister was a painter, and she was like a sort of famous painter of her time. She was like a sort of famous female painter. Good for her. Yeah. At a time where, you know, women weren't really artists or authors. Women didn't be painted very much.

Right. So, you know, the fact that you get these characters who have like these creative interests in our and pursue them and that comes with some level of privilege of being able to pursue these interests but even so like it was like okay like writing and art was kind of reserved for men at the time and in joe's case i mean joe doesn't really get help from anybody and like starting her writer writing career. I think Amy gets like the Parisian bump or wherever the fuck she went to study painting. But like Joe does it all by herself. Like she doesn't get help from

anybody. Well, until Frederick comes along and he's like, meet with my editor friend. Right. And he's like, you have to change everything you write about right um but i don't count the second half of the book is canon okay so she hasn't got any help right so up until that point yes she's she's doing it on her own i don't count uh frederick is not a part of my head canon let's see well i am going to talk about him a little bit i'm so sorry well we should talk about we should we should talk about him yeah complicated uh the main thing for me is that like she has not expressed really any romantic interest in any man up to this point and you know or anyone anyone yeah and then suddenly this guy who's like 20 or 30 years older than her comes along. I think the actor is at least 20 years older than Winona Ryder.

It's a little alarming to look at. But not to shame anyone who, you know, and this was standard of the time. Much older men were marrying much younger women. Who wasn't he in Prince John? But I was just like, okay, she's like, this whole time has been like, no, I'm not going to go and be someone's wife and like no i'm i care about my writing that's the only pursuit i care about and then friedrich comes along and because he likes books she's like well i guess we can kiss yeah yeah right and i mean it was like the cultural the cultural influence of the time in terms of like Louisa May Alcott had no choice.

That's the thing. Her hand was forced in terms of like they all had to get married at the end because that wasn't even reflective of her life. Right. When everything else is pretty much beat for beat the same. But it's like she had to like marry off her own avatar to some rando, which doesn't seem very fair. And she very vocally did not want to marry Joe, have Joe be married, but the fans and the publishers alike were like, no, she's got to be married.

Big moment for marriage. The only, I mean, it's kind of like a, I don't know. I've read a lot of criticism in either direction on Joe's, I mean, there's a ton written about joe yeah and people are like oh i wonder if like greta gerwig's gonna change that or leave that out or like something will end differently but i it's hard because it's like if you it's like what you said kaylin i was like you're never really led to believe that this is something that joe wants out of life so it rings a little hollow when all of a sudden she does want it but then

also it's like she's 19 and i think that it is nice to have like what i like about her story arc with frederick included is that she you know gets something that not a lot of women of this time got which is like a relationship that is on her own terms and like not having and then from a class perspective her turning down laurie was a huge deal because that would have had her and her entire family set for life so it was like not a small choice for her to be like i am going to marry for love so there is from like from a having it all perspective of like she waited. I mean, it's her life. She's also not real. But like she waited until she had at least a footing in her career and she was like pursuing what she wanted to pursue and took the chances that she was wanting to take before choosing someone to be in a relationship with, which I thought is nice in its way.

Where it's like pie in the sky. Sure, she becomes the most famous writer ever and is traveling the world. But in terms of like this time, it is kind of cool to be like, oh, like, and she found someone that she really loves who negs her. But aside from that, I mean, he supports her career

and they're, you know, it's like, I don't know. It's a complicated one. She just definitely did not marry for money. No. Which is, it's like, I don't know. It's a complicated one. She just definitely did not marry for money. No. Which is, which is, He has a bindle.

Exactly. He has nothing. So that's, you know, that's, of that time, that's, you know,

that's, that would be a crazy thing, right? Yeah. I mean, right away. To turn down Laurie, yeah.

And the fact that no one gives her shit for it, too, in her family, because it's like, But it does, I mean,

in the movie, it does, there is that moment where it's kind of like, you she's like tying up loose ends like she like you know it was okay you're all married you got kids she's dead okay i'm gonna and then she basically is like okay i gotta do something and then she just chases them down i feel like it was a little like well i gotta do something kind of thing yes i'm an author but all right i'm still nothing if i'm not married is what the world tells her so she's like all right let's yeah i was surprised based on the more feminist choices that are made in the adaptation that they also wouldn't have chose to leave joe like single

and pursuing her writing rather than ended the movie a little earlier yeah it was like the movie even ends on the shot of her getting like saying she'll get married and you're like that wasn't the point of all this that's what you want to leave us on right we don't even care about this bindle guy honestly do you know to be honest like i had forgotten that aspect of the whole story i forgot that i forgot that like i really did and then when it was i was like oh yes she does end up she does end up marrying you know which is very un very un-Bectle, isn't it? Like, I mean, it's the farthest away. I mean, well, I have, I continue to have complicated feelings about this, where it's like a romantic relationship with a man doesn't make you not feminist.

Of course not. If you're like a straight lady. Yes, Jamie, that is for you. But like, to me, it's more about everything that had been previously established about the Joe character gets sold out, I feel, when she ends up with. Yes, it is. It is a sellout. And it's worse in the book, too, where we're told in the book that it's Frederick's dream to run a school for boys.

And then Joe then uses her inheritance to manifest her husband's dream and then does all the work for it. I think I'm more upset just by hearing you talk about the actual true story of the book, like about she must marry. That makes me the saddest. Not even the movie or any adaptation. So that's what it was. Especially because Louisa May Alcott

doesn't get, like, never married. And never wanted to. And then it's like, fine, I'll marry her. And that sucks. Yeah, it's a bummer. It sucks. And then it's like, fine, I'll marry her. And that sucks. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bummer. It sucks. And Louisa May Alcott, all these things at the end that we're having issues with, she also.

She also had issues. Yeah. And it seemed like her hand was very much forced. So another thing that carried from the book that I'm kind of glad didn't make it to the movie, I think that as far as adapting this book, the screenwriter does a really good job because she like like you were saying she articulates feminist thoughts that were kind of like you know more embryos in the louise may alcott book and just like states them in a way that doesn't feel jarring or like out of time or anything but in the in the book um i think that the reason we're meant to believe that Jo gives up her dreams and decides,

I'm going to get married all very quickly is because of Beth's death. And there's this little passage that I found that I found very depressing. It goes like this. Quote, Jo laid her wearied head down on Bethh's little brown hood which no one had thought of moving from the table where she left it it must have possessed some magic for the submissive spirit of its gentle owner seemed to enter into joe so uh beth's ghost made joe want to get married and give up oh wow yeah okay which is like what, hello? Jamie, that happens to me all the time. Do you ever just take in someone's submissive spirit? Submissive spirit really didn't sit well with me.

Also, that's kind of mean to Beth, too. You're like, can we just say this? And this is just out of nowhere, but it irked me the entire time about how just everyone kept calling Jo ugly. Like, I couldn't. Like I was Jo. And it's your only beauty. Oh. When she cuts off her hair and it just drove me crazy.

She calls herself ugly. And I know it's a movie and blah blah but we can all admit Winona Ryder is anything but ugly. Gorgeous. She is a beautiful little feminine. I mean I can't. Every actor that's ever played Joe is

traditionally beautiful. Which is kind of frustrating because I think that's like a Hollywood thing. So do I. It would be neat if it was like you know less than typically beautiful woman playing it. At the very least. And Louisa

May Alcott was not a conventionally beautiful woman and she's writing this part about herself and it's just like, well, then, cast that. But people are cowards.

Anyway, but that just, it just, I just find it very jarring to hear it, ever. And it's just like, ugh. Because they really made that,

they really made that a part of, or they tried to make that a part of her character. You know what I mean? It's like, that's what she had to overcome. Physical unattractiveness and that part of, or they tried to make that a part of her character. You know what I mean? It's like that's what she had to overcome, physical unattractiveness. And that sort of bothers me. We've got to take another quick break, but we'll come right back.

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How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? The Boone County rebels will stay the Boone County rebels with the image of the biscuits. It's right here in black and white in the prints. A lion. An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me

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or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And there's still so much to talk about. Well, continuing on some of the the feminist sentiments in the movie yes i have a few more amy gets in trouble at school with the whole lime debacle and she's not the scooter the fruit not she doesn't have 24 lime scooters in her desk i mean maybe that's what happened in the 2018 oh. Oh, sure. It was Lime Scooters. The modernized. Yeah, yeah. So Amy's teacher strikes Amy on the hands to punish her for having all these limes. Everyone's in an uproar. And then Amy says, Mr. Davis said it's as useful to educate a woman as it is to educate a female cat.

And Joe is like, I'm going to fucking strangle that dude. She's great and then marmee writes a letter to the teacher withdrawing amy from the school so it's it's like my daughters will educate themselves or be homeschooled rather than be taught by this like misogynist creep is the implication here my daughter uh right yeah that was not that was a welt that was oof yes on tiny kirsten dunst how dare you then there's a conversation kind of just about like the double standards for men and women and their sort of like perceptions by society where this is after meg has gone to that coming out party of her friend i think think Sally Moffat is the name. And Joe is like, I don't like people speculating about Lori and Meg as if they are characters in some play.

And Marmee is like, when nothing provokes speculation more than the sight of a woman enjoying herself. And there's like a really nice conversation that follows that. Yeah. And then Meg is like like why is it that lori may do as he likes and flirt and tipple champagne and marmie's like and no one thinks the less of him well i suppose for one practical reason lori is a man and as such he may vote and hold property and pursue any profession he pleases and so he is not so easily demeaned and then they start talking about like well you know who cares what people think? And Meg is like, well, I kind of do.

And then Marmee says, I only care what you think of yourself. If you feel your value lies in being merely decorative, I fear that someday you might find yourself believing that's all you really are. Time erodes all such beauty, but what it cannot diminish is the wonderful workings of your mind. So she's like saying like, don't just value yourself for how you look like it's your, it's your brain and your mind and your thoughts and feelings that are important. I really, and I liked that, that conversation that Meg was given that line of dialogue being like, well, but wait, and that like, I don't know, I, I, I like how distinct they are from each other and that like no one's perspective is treated as lesser than or and no one's really punished by the narrative for their perspective, except, of course, Beth, who is an angel who has killed. Right.

And then her spirit goes into a hat that Joe puts on and then she torpedoes her narrative. But I thought that that scene was really cool. And then there's one other major scene like this that I took note of, which is like the should women vote scene. It comes up a couple of times. Joe is in New York. There's like all these guys at this like a boarding house that she's living in and they're talking about should women be able to vote? And some guys like stinky, right? Literally this pile of stinky dudes being like, should we let women vote?

What do you think? And you're like, oh, God, they probably have some like influence. Yeah. And so the conversation goes like this. Some guy is like a constitution that denies the basic rights of citizenship to women and black people. And another guy responds, well, they just passed the 15th Amendment. They can vote. The other guy responds, black men can vote. Someone else says like a lady has no need of suffrage if she has a husband and then a guy's like oh well if women are a moral force shouldn't they be able to like govern preach and testify in court and then meanwhile joe is like trying to speak up but all these like men are talking loudly and not giving her any space even though she's like the only woman in the room who could actually like offer which is an experience we've all had. All the time, still, every day. And then Friedrich is like, hey, Jo, what do you have to say? And she says, I find it poor logic to say that because women are good, women should vote.

Men do not vote because they are good. They vote because they are male. And women should vote not because they are angels and men are animals, but because we are human beings and citizens of this country. So those were just a few examples of like the feminist sentiments that I was surprised were in this movie. Again, based on what it's supposed to be set at the time that it's supposed to be set. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty impressive. But we, I read that it's because Robin Swickard, the screenwriter who adapted this, this is from an Atlantic article entitled The Lie of Little Women from 2018. Sophie Gilbert writes, quote, Robin Swickard, who wrote the screenplay, created virtually every line of dialogue from scratch, saying that she had imagined what Alcott might have written had she been, quote, freed of the cultural restraints of her time. The result swerves from the usual homey scene to offer a politically engaged drama in which Marmee and Joe advocate for women's suffrage.

And none of the marches wear silk because it's produced using slavery and child labor. Males are relegated to the margins. The March household is a matriarchy presided over by a fierce feminist and reformist crusader who emphasizes the importance of education and moral character rather than interior decoration. And then Swigert even names Marmee Abigail, which is Alcott's mother's name, end quote. Yes. Yeah. And she does, I think i think like yeah robin swiker does a really really really good job and gillian armstrong as well who i didn't know a ton about this is i think her most famous movie that she made her most mainstream movie so she's a famous australian director she also does a ton of um documentaries um and a lot of her recent work as documentaries

her other most famous movie was also adapted from an old ass book uh called my brilliant career so that was in 1979 it was the first australian feature-length film to be directed by a woman for 46 years so she's like a pioneer in in uh film as well so i think between like robin swickard and uh jillian armstrong they've they've got it on lock nice yeah and it's like really cool that all that stuff you know made it in and didn't get like noted out yeah of the movie like it got noted out of the book right right exactly and then i mean another thing i just i really like both about the book and the movie is that like and this kind of manifests in in a weird way that you were talking about earlier deborah but like joe is described as like being boyish and not conventionally

attractive but she's often saying things like oh like i wish i wish I were a boy and like and that can be you know read a couple of different ways where it's like okay like is this is this part of maybe her possible queer identity or is she saying something to the effect of like if I were a boy I would have like the freedoms that men have at this time but you know I like that, like, you see them dressing up as men several times. You know, she's she's often just described as a tomboy. And I thought that was cool, especially for a story that takes place in a time when gender rules were so rigid. Yeah.

Even more than they are now. So I kind of like. Yeah, I like that the movie doesn't you know like hamper itself down by getting more specific with any of it either just like opens it up to more interpretations and like readings and makes it more accessible to more people so it's good I am trying to oh and that scene I mean it's just worth shouting out. The scene where Joe turns down Laurie is so good. It's so good. I love to watch it.

I went back and I just Googled that scene and other adaptations of it because it's just great to watch. And for reasons we've already talked about, but that scene just fucks me up. It's so exciting. Because that really happens in any rom-com, any sort of romantic movie. But to have it just, I mean, again, I know it's so exciting to know that really happens in any rom-com any sort of romantic movie but to have it just i mean again i know it's 1994 but just or this adaptation obviously but just having the woman say no to the man without make yes and without changing her mind at the end and

showing up in the rain you know i'm being like it was always you like that never it's just it's pretty impressive it's really cool she's like i think of you, it was always you. Like, that never, it's just, it's pretty impressive. It's really cool. She's like, I think of you as a brother. Don't kiss me. Like, and then, and truly means it. And you're just like, fuck, that's so, no meant no. Right, because normally in stories like this, you would see, like, the Laurie character, like,

wearing her down until she finally submits. Instead, he does that to Amy. But at least with Joe, she's like. So then she probably really wasn't mad about the Amy marriage. I don't think she actually was. I don't think she actually was. I would be. Well, I think.

Well, I mean, I guess it's not, you know, in the days of texting, but like it would be weird to find out. And this, I married your sister. Oh, I mean, I mean, obviously the pigeon never made it or whatever it was. That'd be like the equivalent of finding out on like instagram it would be that really would like seriously tell me are you kidding i wasn't even invited literally my best friend that would be crazy that would be a little crazy yeah and i guess it would be strange although do you know anybody in your life that is married their best friend's sister i do know someone i mean there's definitely i feel

like that's just a little weird because i don't know Like, I think we're possessive over our friends. Aren't we a little? I think a little bit. Yeah. I'm just. Don't marry my best friend. Get out of here. You're my best friend.

I get. Yeah. I'm like, if my, like, cousin married, like, someone I dated in high school, I'd be like. You'd still be. Was that necessary? Really. I'm not mad, but was it necessary? All those years later, there's still be that.

There's a slight ick factor. It's just like, wait a minute. Anyway. For me, it's more about, like, wait a minute. Anyway. For me, it's more about like, what do they have in common? Yeah. Why are they,

why is he suddenly in love with Amy? Because that is, we could say that that's Laurie's sort of redeeming characteristic that he did like Joe so much because,

you know, she was a not, yes, exactly for the right reasons that they just really, truly got each other and had fun and challenged each other. Yeah. There's a great joke she liked it for the right reasons yes exactly for the right reasons that they just really truly got each other and had fun and challenged each other and yeah there's a great joke during that scene when he's proposing she's like no we have such horrible tempers he's like no i can keep

mine under control unless provoked oh i laughed out loud hilarious but then you know then he marries the pretty little girl like he's supposed to and amy and amy also it's like i think she's sort of given some like first of all she's kind of dunked on i think unfairly by him several times you've brought up a couple of them but there's also amy is about to marry someone else and it does seem to be largely for financial reasons yeah but like which he mentioned several times which he really like 40 000 or whatever dude it's like 18 like 70 and like this but he also used that as one of his laurie did like i could give you everything you wanted so like exactly i'm like let's not pretend you wouldn't do the same thing and i just i don't know just like shaming her so that she into dating him right was like

well this is like this criticism is not coming from a place of caring. It's coming from a place of horniness. And Amy, I feel like she's sort of allowed to stand up for herself, but then she ends up marrying him anyways, where he's like, oh, well, your family's so chill. And she's like, well, I don't want you

to marry you because you think my family's chill. And he's like, no, no, no, I like you. I like you. I want to be a March, but I family's chill and then he's like no no no i like you yeah i like you i want to be a march but i'll take it anyway i can i'll get it anyway i can get in there i'll marry death death dead body death march she's too warm or no okay um can we talk about beth yeah briefly beth i mean there's unfortunately we don't know that much about Beth. She likes to play piano. Yes. Yes, she's very, I think Beth is interesting.

I mean, there's been a lot of different reads on Beth as well, which are like, I think some of them have some strength to them, but for the most part, it seems like Beth and Louisa May Alcott's sister who passed away at 22 was literally named Elizabeth. And so she just called her Beth instead of Lizzie in the book. So it's like pretty one-to-one with how that character was adapted.

But the way that she's adapted in the movies, I think, is kind of worth discussing. Because she is such a delicate, feminine... I think all the traditional feminine values of this time are all represented in that yes seen not heard very wavy and just that sort of like yeah kind of forgotten almost if you will right which is like kind of i mean she's surrounded by all these very strong personalities and she's like more reticent she's shy she doesn't like the spotlight and all this stuff and she's i think kind of presented as like this feminine ideal in a way but then she dies but it's like but it it was interesting of

i was reading some like takes on the character of like that's a statement from louise may alcott from the writers saying that like this type of femininity can't uphold for much longer or it's growing less relevant. And these characters that are very strong-willed and challenging status quos constantly, like Jo and Marmee, are the ones that endure and then the sort of shrinking violet personalities. Yeah, the ones that get some exercise.

You know, the ones that get to run around a bit. Right, right. Which Marmee says herself let the girls outside how old is beth when she dies like what are we thinking 17 18 she's 15 when the movie starts and then four years later okay so yeah 19 or 20 or 20 i think yeah yeah she's very young and i mean and but but then it's like you have to take it with a grain of salt because louise amel cut's sister died very tragically at a similar age. And it truly might just be a one-to-one.

But it is interesting, I think, that she is the least developed character of the little women. And, I mean, I think probably that and maybe the scene with Laurie and Joe are like the two most remembered things about this movie. Of course. Joe turns down the proposal and Beth dies the hair and they're cutting her hair off too which has nothing to do with anything but like we remember it

but yeah I don't know I mean there's not really that much to say about Beth unfortunately but it is interesting the way that she's pretty consistently represented I don't think that she's pretty consistently represented. I don't think that there's really any many different takes on Beth. Yeah, fair enough. Claire Dane isn't given much to do except to, I mean, it must have been a chill shoot

for her. She's mostly laying down and just having Susan Sarandon hold her hand. You're like, yeah, where's the check? That's great. Yeah. I wonder if this new adaptation, the Greta Gerwig one, will maybe give Beth... Who's playing her? Good question.

Eliza Scanlon, who I am not familiar with. Me neither. But she plays Beth. Emma Watson's Meg. Saoirse Ronan is Jo. And Florence Pugh is Amy. So that's Beth. We talked a little bit about Amy.

Meg is interesting. Jill Loill loftus my mother famously played meg in the brockton high school adaptation of little women no kidding 1976 my mom laurie my mom laurie played laurie i'm no that's not true i like meg and i like what her character kind of represents in the story. Because it's so rare, especially in Louisa May Alcott's time, for women to be the protagonist of the story at all. Much less a lot of different types of women who are constantly disagreeing because they're siblings. But they also have like a very strong bond they love each other and meg i think is like a the representation in this very headstrong family of someone who craves something a little more traditional and i thought it was cool to see

even though like when i was little i was like meg go somewhere do it but but it's like she she is clear about what she wants she wants a married life she wants a family and no one gives her a shit for it yeah they're just like marmee's very supportive she's just like well if that's what you want you know do whatever you want and then when she's like i want to marry this loser marmee's like i guess yeah whatever your your choice like a loser who says um hate him over the mysteries of female life there is drawn a veil best left undisturbed basically meaning i don't know what the fuck women do and i don't i don't want to find out i'm not gonna look it up so i mean there there's a lot of talk in this movie

especially the first half before any of the women, the little women are married, about getting married. Yes. There's all this talk about who they might marry. Should you marry a rich man or is it okay to marry a poor man? Will anyone ever want to marry any of them? Will there be suitors for them? Yeah. At one point, Aunt March, big fan of Aunt March, love her.

Wow. She's basically. The Aunt March hive big fan of Aunt March. Love her. Wow, the Aunt March hive. I love that scene when Laurie's like, I think they're in France later on, and he's like, oh, Aunt March, you're looking well. And she's like, I wish I could say the same. You look like

shit, Laurie. I cannot say the same for you. He does. He has like a shitty little beard. And he's got the undone sort of tuxedo, which is a classic drunk. Yeah, he moved and joined a band. And you're like, oh, Aunt March is not having it. He was a roadie at best.

But Aunt March is saying pretty early on in the movie to Marmee, the one hope this family has is for Meg to marry well. And then Joe comes in and Aunt March is like, and this one's entirely ruined her disposition with books uh so you know maybe not the feminist icon we were all hoping for but later marmie and meg are talking about meg marrying john brooke and she's and you know marmie's saying like oh you know i would rather meg that you marry for love and be a poor man's wife than marry for riches and lose your self-respect.

Which I like. Yeah. I like the message of it. I just wish that the poor man she chose wasn't a fucking asshole. And then Joe chimes in and says, well, why must we marry at all? And it's like, cool that you have that perspective from a female character in this, like, 19th century story. But then she fucking goes and marries frederick for no reason it's yeah frustrating the size have it uh but i mean i'm happy for meg but

there the the i mean there's i just i have a small i hate john's character so much and he's so much worse in the book i have uh just a quick pull quote. Oh, please. So this happens right after Meg gives birth, right? She just put her underwear back on after giving birth to twins. In that day. I mean, my God. Yeah. And then do you remember that scene where Meg was like, Marmee, I don't know how you did it four times.

And then John's like, well, she didn't do it twice at once. I'm like, shut up, John up you're so annoying but okay so meg is very recently given birth and john is mad because he is not getting as much attention as literal babies so john yells quote where's the beef and vegetables i sent home and the pudding you promised alcott wrote that john was a mild man but he was human explaining that a man can't be expected to conduct himself properly when he's hungry let's see there here's here's another passage quote the poor man was very uncomfortable for the children had bereft him of his wife home was merely a nursery and the perpetual hushing made

him feel like a brutal intruder whenever he entered the secret precincts of babydum um so and i guess like alcott ends up being very sympathetic to john of like well of course he's yelling at her she's breastfeeding two children all the time you're like that's that's a great reason to not yell at her yeah she should be yelling she's literally so busy yeah um but i don't i don't know i get yeah the men the male characters in this movie are either not good role models or just basically absent from yeah the story which is kind of great i mean i didn't need more men around in this movie sure and like Friedrich I wish had if he had kind of taken it upon himself to be maybe like a mentor yeah to Joe and been like let me help lift you up as a like woman being a writer but the fact that he's like I don't like these stories you should write different stories

and right I I felt I because I totally forgot everything that happened with friedrich yeah and so the first time when he criticizes her and she's like very taken aback and it's like but this is my life's work and he like immediately apologizes and it's like i'm sorry that was out of line i shouldn't have said that i'm like okay i guess let's see where this goes and then she sort of becomes receptive to dating him after he apologizes to her but then he does it again and and it's like that's kind of so an adaptation change that the screenwriter makes in this movie is that she has joe leave new york shortly after she like cuts him off after he criticizes her the second time and doubles down in the book joe takes it very personally and stops writing.

You know, she like stops writing for a long time and then only starts writing again when she's writing her memoirs, when she starts writing Little Women, basically. So the movie, I mean, tries to do some of have the perspective of the movie to agree with Friedrich in the sense that we see Jo not necessarily really wanting to write these stories, but doing it because that's what the newspapers want. That's what's expected. I think she does say that, too. That's what they're sort of demanding of her. Suggesting that she wishes she could write something else, but like no one wants to hear girl stories or whatever. But like, I don't know. Like I've had male people, men, that's what they're called.

Oh no. Tell me, like when I was in grad school, like I had male professors be like, because I was writing like action comedies and they're like, but Caitlin, like, are you sure you want to write these? Like, why don't you write something more personal? And I was like, I don't want to. Like, I'm writing the things that I want to write.

And it's to me like it felt to me like that's what Jo was doing. Like she was writing the things that she wanted to write. And then at the persuasion of this like male mentor of hers, she's like, OK, fine. I'll write about my life. Which really bugged me. But that's another thing directly pulled from Alcott's life. Right. And she continued to write her fantasy stories, not many of which I think are still in existence.

But the stuff she was actually passionate about and I think she's kind of used Little Women to like bankroll her being able to do stuff she actually wanted to do but she still had to write it under an assumed name which Jo also does. She writes under a male name. Yes. Louisa did as well. It's just like God. Yeah. What a mess.

Oh yeah. What a mess. Does anyone have any other final thoughts? I think that an adaptation of Little Women for a story that takes place literally during the Civil War should not have

1000% white people in it. Seems like a very specific and bizarre omission that any more modern adaptation should have included i mean maybe kind of let's see what this the next one is i mean seriously i know i was like grita gerwig doesn't have a great track record with non-white people but let's let's let's see let's see that reminds me of when we covered the beguiled yes that story that completely omits a black character who is in the novel.

And then in the first movie. And in the first movie. And then Sofia Coppola chooses to, because she is not black and doesn't understand how to write black characters, decides to completely omit that character. Yes, I felt that too. Especially because Alcott, her parents were abolitionists. There were slaves fleeing to freedom passing through their house right in fact i read a story that uh she found one such person like hiding in an unused oven in her house when she was like seven years old

oh my gosh um so she would have had interactions with black people and the fact that they're omitted from the book and then also not included in any adaptations. I very much understand why that would be omitted from the book. I think that that would be very, very hard to get published in the time that she wrote it. I don't understand why it hasn't been included in future adaptations because it's basically a biopic with different names so it's like if these things were happening and we're a big part and she's from an abolitionist family like include that in a meaningful way like it is not disloyal to the source material right because it's literally right there um so that's yeah it's always weird to see a movie about the civil war that only has white people in it.

Yeah. And I think that was my last thing. Yes. My last thing is that the March family has many cats. Little ones. So many. My cat started meowing at the computer. Yeah, there's little kittens.

There's a few adult cats. There's just, and just a reminder to everyone out there that cats do have eight nipples and that's cat facts with Caitlin. And this household has dozens of cat nipples. Yeah, so many. Living under one roof, one enormous roof because again, they live in a huge house. Yes, but they're struggling.

I love that narrative. You're just like, we're so, I mean, and it's like, but if they include the actual Louisa May Alcott stuff, they're like, well, our dad's making us be vegan, but we only have meat. So we're starving. The last thing I wanted to say was about adaptation stuff where I think that like, this is like the best adaptation of this that I've seen, but there is also a list in The New Republic in 2017 of just other ways that the source material has been interpreted

in very specific times. And my favorite stupid one is in the 1949 one. I don't remember this, but this was like post-war big capitalism boom consume consume consume and so they add in a little women shopping spree scene oh god where the march sisters get a little bit of coin and they go to town because women be a shopping honey they get aunt march just like writes them a check and they're like, let's go shopping. Like, and then just, which is a very stupid. I just, I want to see that scene.

Yes. It's so out of place. I want to see it too. It's so extremely out of place. Yeah. I think that's all I had. Yeah. Anyone else?

I don't think that was it. No, that's good. That's good. You guys, I mean, seriously. That'll do it. Nail this. Well, does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Yeah.

Duh. Yeah. They do talk about men a lot. They do talk about men a lot. Yes. A lot of daddy talk, a lot of Laurie talk. Yeah. Heavily male dominated in conversation.

No one says, is it not meningitis? That should be Beth's last word. Yeah, meningitis. More like little women-gitis. Technically, it does pass the test. Little women-gitis. Right, right. Think about it.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. But yeah, there are many scenes where, you know, they're talking about hair. Yes, yeah. And dresses and, you know, pretty traditionally feminine things. But the baldest woman is in charge true rule works

but then she grows it back out again yes well she I also like that they can't keep that upkeep I mean she wasn't going for a trim

every eight weeks she had to grow it back out like let's be honest I also like that she got sad for a minute and then she was that was like really funny because they were like

are you because that was like when Beth goes up to her, it's like, are you sad because daddy got injured in the war? She's like, no, it's my hair. And then the next day she's like, actually, it looks nice. I have cried after so many haircuts. Me too.

Relatable. Relatable. I also like that Beth starts laughing. I was like, yeah, we don't care that dad got injured in the war. Oh, gosh. So let's rate it on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation of women i think i'd give this like a three and a half or four maybe even because i don't even know how much we actually talked about this during the discussion but it is a movie where almost all the main characters are women.

Very female driven story. Women are the focus. Women's stories and characters and their growths and arcs. Like that is the core of the film. The fact that you get these feminist sentiments sprinkled throughout that. I mean, definitely progressive for her story set in Civil War era. And then even progressive for something from 94. Like, yeah, it's expecting that really.

And while I feel things kind of fall apart by the end where the focus does become more on the relationship that these little women have with men and especially the the joe character i feel being sold out because she had previously been established as someone who's like no i'm not really interested in being a wife i'm not really interested in being married i just want to pursue my writing and then friedrich comes along and she's like well even though you made me change everything I write about we should maybe end up together didn't like that no but overall I really like this movie and I like what it's trying to do and I think it is generally executed pretty well just save for a few little beats that I wasn't too crazy about. But yeah, overall, I'll give it a 3.75.

Oh, that's nice. I will give one nipple to Aunt March. I will give one to Marmee, one to Joe, and I'll give my three quarters of a nipple to the cute little orange kitty cat. I'm going to go, I think, three and a half. Yeah, I like this movie. I feel like this is the best adaptation so far.

I hope that Greta Gerwig kind of keeps pushing it. I mean, based on the trailer alone, I feel like we're going to see quite a bit of it. Although Debra's Joe runs a lot criticism, I think, is alive and well. We see it it Saoirse puts in 10,000 steps easily

she women be running to indicate that their spirit is free it's a thing it's a thing but no I mean I think that this is like it does look promising though the new one it does yeah and I like that a lot of there's um two women

from the production team of this movie that are um coming back to work on the greta gerwig movie denise denovi who is a producer on the main producer in this movie is also producing the new one cool and then robin uh swikert is back so it seems like they have people who have a history yeah yeah that's great the you know i hope this is the next mcu oh sure the lwu the uh the you know and then we meet more little women there's so many there's some of them are looking for a special rock and then they fight each other i uh the the that was like i think i just pitched a terrible funny or die sketch um but I'd watch it yeah no I think it's really good and yeah I mean I there's definitely things about it that are of its time but a lot is also course corrected um I want to give the production team the benefit of the doubt and say that ending the scene on Joe deciding to get married was a studio note and not something that anyone

actually wanted to do because it just doesn't it seems like tonally dissonant I think yeah I would say so that is them going let's tie this up nicely and everyone was kicking each other under the table but they had to do it because that's where the money was coming from right it seems like a male

executive note at the end but for the most part yeah i mean like giving marmee a name giving marmee a feminist identity and and just i mean to like shout out the original book too like louise may alka was really cool seems pretty dope she seemed like she would be really mean to me um i got a big step on my neck energy from louisa malcott because she was just like you like my work i don't like she just was like she seemed like a really fun meet she said she wrote the second half of the story good wives quote in a very stupid style she's just there's also i read a quote that uh this other sequel joe's boys she said she was so just like pissed off about having to write the whole thing that by the end she wished she could

have had the school for boys that they open up uh just get swallowed up by an earthquake i'm paraphrasing but yeah but still but it's something like that I do like when people start to resent their cash cow it's a fun vibe it's humanizing isn't it? It's like oh yeah we get it sometimes you do it for the paycheck

you know? Oh god Debra what about you? I would say you know I think we all agree it's around a 3.5 I just they lose a point they lose a nipple or two for all agree it's around a 3.5. Yeah. It is. I just, they lose a point. They lose a nipple or two for me because it's just the word insipid comes up for me. And I know that's of the time, but it just, it did, it irked me a little bit. It just really did. And I know I'm being too picky.

No. But generally speaking, right, it was, you know, it was, they didn't do Little Women and replace it like we see in comedy so much. It'll be like it's a women's festival, but there's four male headliners. Like they didn't do that. Do you know what I mean? They didn't go Little Women, but there's a brother in this one. Like there was none of that. And God bless them because they could and I'm sure they got notes for it.

So you have to still really give them, you three and a half nipples 3.75 nipples for that so thank you very much on that work you know what i mean like come on we've all been there it's just a woman's show but there's three guys okay we got it oh cool thanks yeah cool the twist is they haven't assaulted a woman you're like oh okay well they've earned their place here cool tj miller's back in movies you see that oh it's yeah that uh underwater i know kill me now baby which I would see but with T.J. Miller normally that's my kind of

I love that sort of genre I know I do but I know when you saw the preview like I think I shrieked out oh look who's met like that kind of

I was like oh no but he was cancelled yeah not anymore anyway anyway to conclude Little Women pretty good pretty good pretty good yeah more anyway anyway to conclude little women

pretty good pretty good pretty good yeah uh deborah thank you so much for joining us always a pleasure third time guys girls ladies humans little women little grown woman

dudes exactly always a pleasure truly where can people follow your stuff um instagram i'm deborah dg and on twitter i'm deborah dg ovani i know it's my whole name how awful but uh yeah d-e-b-r-a-d-g is where you can usually find me excellent you can follow us us little women us grown-ass women uh on social media at bechtel cast uh rate and review us if you would for this holiday season. Give us a nice

five stars on Apple podcasts and whatnot. You can subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matreon by going to patreon.com slash Bechtelcast and it's only $5 a month. You get access to the entire back catalog and it's a real treat. Matreon is good. I like is good thank you so much the gift of the matron it keeps on giving instead of the fuck the gift of the magi it's the gift of the

matron yeah yeah also you can grab some of our merch uh at tpublic.com slash the bechdel cast we've got all of our designs there and um i think that about does it yeah see you later bye-bye bye-bye Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman wikileaks she exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Hey fam, I'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robay. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side, the podcast from Hello Sunshine that's guaranteed to light up your day. Check out our recent episode with Grammy Award-winning rapper Eve on motherhood and the music industry. No, it's a great, amazing, beautiful thing.

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