The Bechdel Cast - Love, Simon with Matt Rogers

Episode Date: June 27, 2019

Love, Jamie and Love, Caitlin sit down with special guest Love, Matt Rogers to discuss Love, Simon. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @MattRogersTho on Twitter.  While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What happens when a professional football player's career ends and the applause fades and the screaming fans move on? I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. For some former NFL players, a new faith provides answers. You mix homesteading with guns and church.

Voila! You got straight away. He tried to save everybody. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, Jake Storielli here from John Boy Media. I want to tell you about my podcast, Waking Jake. I've been a sports nut my whole life, and there's nothing I love more than talking about it. If you're a sports fan, Waking Jake is the place for you. Covering all the hot topics from the sports world, a lot of baseball, a lot of postseason coverage,

mock drafts, awards, guest interviews, all of it. New episodes every Monday and Wednesday. Come watch along on the Wake and Jake YouTube channel or listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Jamie Loftus. And my name is Caitlin Durante. We've got a few messages at the top of the show today. We have some upcoming show dates, a live bestel cast in los

angeles we'll be covering anastasia 1998 ever heard of it with guest anna sarah gina at the ruby theater and that's july 13th and that is the episode we are doing for your birthday so and it's our last show in la for a couple of months so be sure to come out celebrate with us bring me a bunch of presents while you're at it you know i will be cosplaying as for sure i will be dressed as rasputin um and i would say it would be the last time to incentivize people to go but i know it won't be uh and the reason we won't be here for the summer is because we will both be doing shows in europe that's right that's why we'll be gone from la for a little bit now you understand you get it because jamie what are you doing i'm bringing my solo show boss whom is girl to edinburgh fringe

festival and london if you are not familiar is my one woman show about an evil corporate feminist who uses feminism for bad unlike us who use it for good. It's it's a lot of Elizabeth Holmes. So much fun. I've seen it many times. Caitlin's a stan of the show. I don't pressure her to go. But I'm really excited about it. I've never done fringe before. So if you're a UK Bechtel head, I'd love to see you there. I'll be in London doing it on July 27th and 8th at the Bill Murray. Okay, sure. Only five pounds to go. And those will be the only two shows I'll be doing there for Boss Who Missed Girl. And then I'll be at Edinburgh Fringe every damn night from July 31st through August 26th at Pleasant's Baby Grand.

Please come to those. I don't know anyone there. And it would be so great to see a friendly face. Yes. Caitlin, you're doing shows in Europe too. Why, thank you for bringing it up. Because I'm doing probably mostly stand-up shows. Some in London, some in Edinburgh, some some maybe i'm gonna be in dublin too

i don't have any shows booked there yet but until maybe you hear this sick message until you're like hey caitlin uh do this show in dublin and i'm also gonna be some other places in europe too any athens greece listeners because i'll be there i don't know what the comedy scene is like there we're traveling women now yes you gotta deal with it we're going around the world so stay tuned we may be announcing additional dates mystery question mark who knows uh so keep checking bethelcast.com on our live appearances tab that's where you can find the links to all of their shows and more so thank you for listening and enjoy the episode that you're about to hear on the Bechdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just

boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name's Jamie Loftus. And we talk about the portrayal and representation of women in movies. Yes, in the podcast that you've put on. Don't know why I said that so. Where?

I liked it. Thank you. I liked it. I like you made a choice and I was, it's like when you're watching a movie and you're like, that was a choice and I respect that. Come into it. Yeah. I can't stop.

If she backs down, I'll respect her less. It's not my favorite choice, but I really like that that's the one you made. It was a mistake and I am stopping. I love, my favorite thing to do on stage is make a choice, feel a little bit of hesitation, immediately back up on it and lose the entire audience. I that when they're like oh she's really going for it oh she realizes it's not working oh she's receding into herself and we have to spend 45 more minutes with her that can you tell that happened to me last week oh you know wonderful what a what a gift anyway so we talk about uh we use the bechdel test as a jumping off point to initiate this larger conversation.

And the Bechdel test, of course, is a media test created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. And it requires that a movie or anything with a narrative has two female identifying characters with names. They have to talk to each other and they cannot talk about men unbelievable i wonder if the lorena bobbitt documentary i'm just gonna keep talking about it i wonder if it passes it doesn't pass the bechdel test if lorena bobbitt uh chops her husband's dick off and throws it into the woods even if she's not talking to anyone that does automatically pass the bechdel test. Yes. Okay. Cool.

Well, shall we begin? Let's do it. Our guest today, we have a great one. I'm so excited. He hosts the Las Culturistas podcast with Bo and Yang. And they've been on tour with the, I don't think so, Honey Live tour. It's Matt Rogers. Hey. Hi. Hi. don't think so honey live tour it's matt rogers hey hi hi i honestly what i i loved that you said before my favorite thing to do is make a choice and that could have been the end of the end of the sentence and then you're like to make a choice and then back away and i was like perfect and then

you were like and then they're stuck with me for 45 minutes so it was a very specific scenario and i loved every sentence it could have been compounded to and the sentence that ultimately it was. Plymouth, Massachusetts. A whole hour of it. Incredible. Oh, wonderful, wonderful. Oh, we forgot to mention. Okay, so full disclosure, Matt.

We have an embargo on male guests that we sometimes lift when the time is right. And the time is right for you. Yeah, we only do it for the best of the best. Okay, so who have you had on? What's the company? Alfred Molina. Oh, yeah, we had to lift him. There was no choice.

I mean, I forgot that he identified as any gender. I was like, he's more of an idea than a gender. Unbelievable. And I heard one Pat Regan just in the room just now. Yes. So we've been very choosy. So, you know, it's really some top tier shit.

Honestly, I'm really grateful that you guys have chosen me. And I do think that the movie I chose for you guys, like it's good that I'm here to talk about it. Yeah, I agree. Because only white gays

should talk about white gay bullshit. Okay? I am so excited. No one else's take counts. This is a white gay bullshit. Okay? I am so excited. No one else's take counts. This is a white gay Fantasia, and I'm here to expound on it. So today's movie, of course, is Love, Simon. Love, Simon. Yes, honey.

What is your history with, have you read the book? What's your relationship with this? I have not read the book. I did see the film in theaters. I was a good supporter of this lgbt cinema um well when it came out i was kind of like oh boy like what's what's this going to be and then i i kind of was like you know what let's give it a shot and i did end up crying by the end of the film i actually cried a couple times i saw with my best friend sudi green

and we we went and we were emotionally affected by it and then I had that moment of everyone that had criticism of it that was like justifiably good criticism I was kind of like defensive about it because I was like but just let us have this but also it's like not a perfect film and also it's

super like for the privileged but I did like enjoy the film you know what I mean as a movie I was like I'd rather see this movie than like fucking Paper Heart or whatever that shit was with Cara Delevingne you know what I mean I just was like at least it's different

than that I don't have patience for a John Green joint I just don't I don't care like I really don't care about like this like sort of I don't even know if I'd call it twee, but, like, this kind of, like, mystical teen girl bullshit. I don't care. Where she always has to die for, like, the boy to learn a lesson. Right.

And that's the movie. Right. And also the boy in those movies are so fucking boring. And also if there's, like, a sort of interesting male character, you know, there has to be a boring character. It's like in those films, like like one of them has to be boring. And I'm not saying- Right, I'm not saying that Simon isn't boring. Because Simon is pretty boring.

Simon has an Elliot Smith poster and Radiohead April 2nd written on his chalkboard walls. You're just like, man. Dude. He's like, you know, I don't know. He's not like the other gays. Right. Yeah, he's not like the other gays. He's straight. Yeah, he's like, may know, I don't know. He's not like the other gays. Right. Yeah, he's not like the other gays.

He's straight. Yeah, he's like, may as well be straight. And also, like, when he does come out to his one friend and he's like, did you expect anything? Did you suspect anything? And she's like, I mean, no, like, because you're too fucking boring to have any personality to draw anything on, dude. Right. The most exciting thing about you was a poster on your wall i know there's a lot of i mean and i guess teenagers like i definitely did this to some

extent but a lot of like this is the character and you can tell because this is their bedroom like borat kid yeah like borat kid you're like oh i know the vibe of this kid it's borat kid yeah 100 i actually i was like justifying to my friends why he was so boring i'm like the thing is like when you're gay in high school you don't have a personality because you're not allowed to have one like he's saying he likes radiohead because he can't really say he likes christina aguilera you know what i mean like all these things true and i was like you know what yes that could be true or maybe the filmmakers are just like he's a kid that likes radiohead which i think both are equally possible. Sure. I don't know.

I want to assume it's smarter than it is, but it could just be like a fine B-plus movie, which I love. I love that for it. I really like this movie, and I'm coming at it with some blind spots. But I saw it twice in theaters, and I had lots of good laughs, some good cries. My instinct is to say thank thank you thank you for that I I was very emotionally invested in this story and that of course you know it's it's not without its issues but we'll talk about those but I generally really like this movie I saw it this morning I laughed I cried yeah I liked it and then when I was like who wrote this movie and it's the

this is us writers which makes so much sense because they're pulling yeah they're pulling at I laughed I cried yeah I liked it and then when I was like who wrote this movie and it's the This Is Us writers which makes so much sense no they're good at that because they're pulling yeah they're pulling at the exact like there is an element to this movie

at times where it's like you feel like your heartstrings are being pulled very scientifically and methodically they're like first I'm gonna do this

and then I'm gonna throw in a dad scene and then like then Jennifer Garner's the mom which is like at this point yeah that's what she does she does that this scene. And then Jennifer Garner's the mom, which is like, at this point, that's what she does. She does that.

This is my second favorite Jennifer Garner mom role. What's the first favorite? Juno. Oh, okay. I love her in Juno. Yeah. I think I might like this movie more than Juno. I definitely do.

That's fair. Or maybe it's been a long time since I've seen Juno. You know, just to like flat out say this just up top, because I already feel myself being like needlessly cynical about it. It was very kind of cool to see a depiction of two gay kids kissing at the end and then everyone

cheering. You know what I mean? Because that would never have happened when I was in high school. And I think that like you know, the criticism of this movie like it is what it is. But also it's like come on. It's a nice movie where good things happen to someone who struggles. And, you know, I can relate to the struggle. Sure.

We as a society are still progressing and in some cases regressing. But, like, you know, we're always hoping for more intersectionality in movies and in media but it you know it has to start somewhere and i feel like this is a good place in the right direction and the fact that this movie had like a gigantic release it was very successful and like well regarded that yeah that says a lot yeah i actually made my parents go see it i was like you should go see this movie because well my dad liked it and my dad said it hurt his feelings. I was like,

why did it hurt your feelings? He was like, well, the scene with the dad, because to be honest with you, the scene with the dad, and I think Josh Duhamel's best performance.

Let's just say that. I don't know if I've ever seen him be, like, I've never been impressed with him before this movie. He was good. He was really good. And also I think like,

it's that kind of thing where it's like, you know, you're given that scene as an actor and like it's probably pretty hard to mess that up like it's pretty emotional situation but um he was great and i remember i said to my dad i was like you should go see this movie and he's like the scene with the dad about him missing it that was like very similar when i was watching that scene i actually like was very emotionally affected by it because it mirrored their own scene in my own life very I mean even the vest he was wearing I remember he's wearing that puffy dad vest yeah over a flannel with a hat on that was my dad's like that that he was doing like Rich Rogers drag in that scene and I was like oh boy and so the way he was being emotional about it

they were standing very far away from each other. It was kind of just like it's that kind of masculinity that there's like that thing that needs to get broken down extra. It did a really good job in that scene of depicting that. And so between that and also the scene with the mom and there was lots of stuff that was going to get me. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I cried a lot during that like

sequence of him coming out to different people where you're just and then one of the scenes would end you'd be like and then another one would start you'd be like ah the sister too was tough for me when the sister comes to his room and is like simon are you okay is it true and he was like get out of here and yelled at the sister. That was hard. I wish they had had more of a reconciling somewhere in the end. They don't really get that. I guess he gives her a Cuisinart, and that was their... I think that was, for me, the most privileged moment of the movie.

I'm like, Simon, where did you get this money for a Cuisinart? You don't have a job. Everyone in this movie seems very wealthy. Yeah. That is one of, I mean, like, it did make me laugh a lot,

like, where it starts, where it's like, I'm just like you. I just got a car from my parents. My house has 500 rooms. Like,

my mom's incredibly liberal. Yeah. Like, as if she were in her early 20s in New York City. She's doing, like, smash the patriarchy and their fucking gigantic house i am assuming was bought with an oil fortune like we don't know

what the parents do it's crazy his mom is a therapist oh yes they do say that right i don't know yeah we don't know what his dad does though i don't think i don't know i don't think they say you know that was actually something about it where i was like maybe something they were going for which didn't really land just felt was like, maybe something they were going for, which didn't really land and just felt like privilege. But maybe what they were going for was like a kid like this that it seems like has everything can be hurting very much. And I think that that is like something I sort of related to. My family was in upper middle class. We were middle class comfortable.

My mom was a hairdresser. My dad was a phys ed teacher. Like we we had a nice house but i was still in pain every single day like an immense amount of emotional pain and i didn't think i was lucky you know what i mean and so i think something that the film could have done was maybe just give it more of an acknowledgement of that sort of like yeah privilege sure he's he comes from a place of economic privilege, of white privilege.

And we can talk more about that. But first, how about we do the freaking recap? Let's do the freaking recap. Here I am talking about the specifics. Oh my God. So we meet Simon. We do. He is hot.

He describes himself as a... He's really hot and white. It's like he's like brochure, like, oh my God. You're like, is he 22? The first thing I did was Google his age to see if I should feel like a pervert. But it's fine. He's 23 years old. Now you could fully bang him.

Yeah. I was just like, oh, this is fine. And I'm actually going to see, like, where is he at? What's he doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. And he would describe himself as a normal teenager. know he's a senior in high school he's got some great friends their names are Leah Nick and Abby he's got a diverse friend group yes another

brochure friend group like college brochure yeah he's got a great family and things are going pretty well for him except that he's got this one big secret it's that he's gay and no one knows he's still completely in the closet so at school there's like this blog that's popular among the students it's leah's only character trait is that she loves i relate so closely with leah of being this like calling a friend frantically being like refresh your Internet. Yeah. Like just God and being in love with gay men forever. Right. Yeah.

She I felt very close. And she says, hey, did you see the latest post? It's from a guy who posted anonymously as code name blue and he is saying that he is gay and simon's like oh my god there's someone else like me so he writes him an email he writes blue an email i love that we jock jock i love that they took the time to show us that he made a shell gmail account i'm like that is appropriately thorough. Yeah. So he writes Blue this email saying like, hey, I've also got a big secret, but he also signs it anonymously as, again, code name Jacques. So they still don't know each other's identities.

And then he's like waiting for him to write back. And then Blue finally writes back. Tony Hale is screwball comedy. He's like Buster Blue thing all over the place. and then Blue finally writes back. Tony Hale is screwball comedy-ing. He's like Buster Blue thing all over the place. Tony Hale's character was a little touchy for my... He was a very touchy vice-principal. He was completely inappropriate in a way

that's like, maybe we could have seen a movie about this like 15 years ago and we would have said nothing but now it's like, stop being this way with these kids. It felt a little out of place with like the movie felt very modern but then it was like oh the like it's i know this movie is like clearly pulling from a lot of john hughes kind of stuff but that was the one place i'm like that's like just straight up textbook john he's perverted like he was teacher. He was dangerous. Yeah. I was like, he should be fired.

He's like, I've got a Tinder date tonight, and I'm trying to fuck. And he tells that to his students. And then he, like, claws the student and is like, we can talk about this here. I was like, you're fired. It's wild. So then, anyways, but he seems to be having a good time.

Oh, in the role? He's having a great time in the role. Yes, really. I bet he's tossing in some improv lines, seeing what sticks. I wonder if it was ever even discussed on set. Like, hey, this principal's a little edgy, huh? Yeah. Or they were just like, no, he's fun.

And then his last beat is a bizarro no homo joke. Yeah. Where he's like, you're just like, Tony. Get out of here. Come on. You're Emmy nominated. You don Tony. Get out of here. Come on. You're Emmy nominated. You don't need this. Another great teacher in the film,

Natasha Rothwell. Miss Albright. Miss Albright. I fucking love that character. She was amazing and she had all the fun. She had a lot of the LOL one liners. Definitely.

She is the theater teacher and Simon is doing theater. He's doing a production of Cabaret with Abby, his other friend. Yes. Which to me was like, hmm, I don't know if this guy is being closeted, would even be in the play. That took me back to my high school days where I didn't do anything.

Really? No, did no plays, did no nothing. Because that would have been a huge tell. You think it would be like a dead giveaway kind of situation? Yeah, and I mean, I didn't even have to deal with it being cabaret. Like, he's playing like the MC in cabaret? Or who is he playing? I'm not at all familiar with cabaret.

He was like an extra or something. Okay, so he was in the cabaret, but either way. In cabaret, if you're in cabaret, you're doing some sexy hip movement. I've got to see cabaret again. I haven't seen cabaret in so long. It's good on stage. It's really good anyway

I did Hello Dolly my senior year and were you Dolly? changed no I was a dancer I was never in any of the musicals

because I have the worst singing voice in the world no it's true so go yeah

yeah the Lady Gaga run in shallow that's stars born truly thank you so much i'm gonna be discovered on this podcast okay so blue finally writes back and he and simon get to talking over email about their experience with being gay and their like sexual awakenings and that's great all this stuff they're both very articulate yeah they're great writers they're like screenwriters they're it's almost like they've sexual awakenings and all this stuff. They're both very articulate. Yeah, they're great writers. They're like screenwriters. It's almost like they've written many episodes of This Is Us. It's crazy.

It's kooky. It's wild. They also capitalize and use punctuation. I'm like, this is a teenager, but like, sure. Who are the guys they say gave them their sexual awakenings again? Daniel Radcliffe and Jon Snow. Yes. Those are good ones.

Those tracked for me. They show two very different young gays. You know what I mean? Well, actually, no. They're both into young, kind of twinkie British guys. So never mind. From very nerdy properties. Yeah, exactly. Okay, wow. These boys are bound to fuck each other.

You're right. I liked when they cut from the Jon Snow to every teenager wearing a Jon Snow t-shirt in the high school. You're like, that was very stressful for me. Because it's kind of like shamey for how people look. It's like, oh, here's a guy who's kind of chubby. And here's a guy who's brown.

And it's like, oh, I wouldn't want to date any of them. They do do a little bit of that. Yeah. With no awareness. Right. Yeah. So that was a little troubling. That's another thing.

It's weird. I was thinking the whole time. I was like, what if Blue is not Hollywood hot at the end? I thought about that, too. Right. Because, spoiler alert, he is absolutely Hollywood hot at the end. He is completely Hollywood hot. Wait, is absolutely hollywood hot he is completely is he over 18 is he 22 he is he is thank god you can jack off to him too guilt-free everyone at

home but he's like i mean it was so like i don't know he's like hollywood hotter than simon i would say you're just i was like it would have been an interesting choice for it to be like someone who was not the hottest person ever. But like, whatever. It was a good kiss. Yeah. I cried during it. Anyway. Okay.

So Simon starts to speculate about who Blue might be. And then at first he thinks it's this guy named Bram who plays soccer with his friend Nick. And they're emailing back and forth still. And then at one point Simon leaves this email logged in on a computer at the school library. Enter Borat kid. Enter Martin, who sucks so bad. He's the worst.

That actor does a great job of making that character so unlikable. And we all know that kid. Yeah, that is such a well-written character. That kid that you were just like, why am I involved with this person? Like, he really was well drawn out. He, to me, felt like the logical conclusion of Chicken Nuggets Kid from eighth grade. Really?

That makes me so sad. You don't think that Chicken Nuggets Kid from eighth grade, like, figured himself out? Maybe I'm selling him short. You became Martin? Maybe I'm selling him short. Oh, my God. I had so much hope for Chicken Nuggets Kid. I thought Chicken Nuggets Kid

was the best. He was great. I thought right there in eighth grade, Elsie Fisher had literally found her husband. I'm like, girl, it worked out for you

in the end. You fucking nailed it. This kid likes Chicken Nuggets and interesting TV. And he fans up Rick and Morty. And he's already, he has romantic instincts

at eighth grade. Come on, bitch. I take it all back. I take it all back. I get way worse than him. He's probably also going to be fucking dynamite in bed later on

because he has to try. Oh yeah, he's going to work for it. You know what I mean? The worst people in bed are the hottest. He's going to make you cum. Yes, he'll make you cum. Because no one's ever going to tell,

like, well, hot people, they're just never going to be told that they're not doing something right. Exactly. Ever. And it's like, I'm not going to be the one to tell them. I'm just happy to be here.

Or that they have to do something. Right. For example, Simon and Blue, who we find out who Blue is later, and he is Hollywood hot. When they finally do have sex, it's going to be like, well, who tries? You know what I mean? They're going to have to take turns making an effort. They're just kind of rubbing against each other in a very unsexy way. Because Blue is like, I'm 10 out of 10 hot.

And Simon is like, well, I'm 8 out of 10 hot and white. So he thinks he doesn't have to do anything. Anyway. Anyway. We have to take a quick break. But we'll come right back. Oh. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jay Shetty and welcome to On Purpose. I started this podcast to have real conversations that help you live with more meaning, whether it's navigating relationships, working on your mental health, or figuring out what you're truly here to do. This week, I welcomed back Dr. Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University, known for his insightful work on brain development, neuroplasticity, and the intricate connection between the brain and body. Letting go and not trying to control everything, but also pushing oneself to be more resilient and

tenacious and things of that sort. I feel like all of life is like that. All of life is about, yes, you need to take care of your physiology. You need to get your sleep at night, but it's also okay to get a bad night's sleep every once in a while. It's okay to not do every protocol. In fact, it's encouraged to not do every protocol. The expectation on us is not perfection, right? It's being able to toggle between these different states. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't the Twats. Yep. You heard that

right. We're the hosts of Two Teas in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week, we break down every episode and give you our opinions. We cover it all. OC, Jersey, Beverly Hills, New York City, Dubai. As we always say, you're only as good as last week's episode. Plus, we're talking to all your favorite Bravo celebrities and not just housewives. We're putting your favorite people in the twat seat and getting the juicy stories everybody wants to know. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble. Okay, maybe a lot of trouble. It's not really trouble when it's truthful. Let's just say we can be a little twatty.

Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Martin logs in onto the computer that Simon was using. Yes. And he sees the emails. So then he approaches Simon and basically blackmails him and says, hey, I really like your friend Abby. Everyone likes his friend Abby. Yes. And I need your help getting with her.

And if you don't help me, I will expose your emails and out you to the school. But there is something about this girl where you kind of believe that she's the one. That she's the one that everyone wants to be with. It makes sense. And she's a good character, and she's a good friend and all that, too. So they don't fall into the pitfall of the bitchy hot girl vibe. And they made it that she was new to the school, too. They made it that she had only been there for a year.

So you buy it even more because there's like that new girl who there's like an air of mystery about you know what i mean that was a smart decision and she was the only one who seemed to be of like a lower socioeconomic class because she lives in an apartment building versus a huge mcmansion like everyone else lives in so there's that um but okay so anyway so simon agrees to help martin so that he's not being outed so simon invites martin to the halloween party that bram is throwing that weekend they all go to the party and like nick and abby are vibing martin tries to butt in but it's not working so. And then Nick wants to ask Abby out.

I'm having deja vu as you're saying Nick and Abby are vibing, because I'm sure I've heard this in regards to some pair of people. Yeah, Nick and Abby have been vibing. For sure, they've been vibing for millennia. For sure vibe. But because Simon is beholden to this awful blackmail situation of Martin's, he has to be like, no, Nick, don't ask Abby out. She's dating this college dude.

He makes up some imaginary person. Yeah, he becomes a prolific liar in this. A web of lies. A web of lies. Meanwhile. Love a teen lie. So many teen movies are based on bets, tricks, or lies. So meanwhile, Simon is working up a nerve to tell Bram that he's Jacques at this party.

But then he walks in on Bram kissing a girl. So he's like, welp, Blue is not Bram. Never mind. Right. So now Simon thinks that Blue might be this guy who's a server at the Waffle House, Lyle. Also cutie. Again, is he

a teenager or is he early 20s? I think he was in his mid-40s. He looked really old. We have to be very careful about who we say is hot and not. I'm pretty sure that no one in this movie is a legitimate teenager except maybe the little sister. Sure. Everyone else is in their 20s.

Based on my cursory look at everyone's Wikipedia page. Watch when you go on like the little sister's IMDB and she's got like a fucking glamour shot and it's like age 36. Like she just did like fucking Lady Macbeth. I hope so. Okay so then

Simon comes out to Abby. Who is so that girl that you come out to? I loved that scene too. That was great. Yeah she was like, yeah, sure. I'm like, oh, cool. You're still too hot for this. You're still too hot for this situation. She's like, I'm not surprised.

I wasn't expecting anything, but I'm not surprised. The crazy thing about me is I'm also incredibly smart and perceptive and nice and also hot. And very chill as well. There's nothing wrong with me, actually. And then something that happens in movies a lot where it's like she's the only like you point out she's the only character who's like a little bit poorer than everyone else and that is always like weirdly exoticized in like teen movies i'm like oh she's kind of from the other side of the track she's got a little bit of otherworldly wisdom for what with being poor and so like it's just like she's been hungry once

right they're like so like she's actually got a lot to teach us it was like right and it would like definitely set off some red flags if she was like the only person of color in the movie who also happened to be the only person who was of a lower class but you see like nick and bram also with huge houses. So it's like, okay, well, at least they're not doing that. What kind of house is it? We don't see Ethan's house. Wait, which one's Ethan? Ethan is the only out kid in school.

Oh, no, we do not see his home. Correct. We should say there is another out kid at school named Ethan, and because of the way Ethan gets treated, Simon stays in the closet even more. Yeah, he's reluctant yeah yeah yeah he wants like Blue and Jacques to reveal their real identities to each other but Blue isn't ready so we still don't know who Blue is meanwhile like Abby is warming up to Martin

and Nick is like fuck it I'm just gonna tell Abby that I like her but like Simon has to keep up this charade. And he's like, what if you consider Leah instead of Abby? Because Simon thinks that Leah is in love with Nick. What a not. Idiot. She's in love with him. Yeah.

It's so obvious. I feel like that was one thing I thought was a little not right with the movie is it's like in that scene where Leah, who like fully sleeps over Simon's house in his room, somehow that's allowed. She's like, I just want to love one person, looking him dead in the eyes. She's like, I like you, basically. And he's just like, yeah, anyway, good night. And he really doesn't know. I knew every time one of my friends was interested in me. It set me off into an interior panic,

which I think was something they could have explored. Sure. Yeah, definitely. It's like a part of it. It's a big part of being closeted in high school is navigating the fact being that you are expected to have a heterosexual experience. Yeah.

And you can't. Maybe he's just not very perceptive. I rarely know. I don't know. He's so boring that it's hard to know. He's so boring, but just not very perceptive. Like I'm rarely know. I don't know if he's so boring that it's hard to know. He's so boring but a great, perceptive, beautiful writer in emails but can't take any signals. From someone he's known for his entire life.

Exactly. That was a little bit off. Yeah. And it's also, I don't know. Yeah, I felt really bad for Leah's character almost the entire movie because she doesn't really get a win no she doesn't at all

down to the very end where Simon's like get in the back seat my sexy boyfriend's taking your spot yeah and she's like okay so Leah has to sit

in the back where her two friends are Frenching and then like the only boy she's ever been in love with is with his sexy boyfriend in the front seat

and then it's like oh god you sucked on that iced coffee like you've earned it but she is going to leah is literally the type of girl who fucking blossoms in college she is going to be crushing dick in college yeah like guys are going to be lining up because she's super smart she's like television star beautiful in fact she is the star of 13 reasons why on netflix oh is that that her? That's Katherine Langford.

Oh, okay. See, I have only watched the first episode of 13 Reasons Why, but it freaked me out. Yeah, because it's a bad, dangerous show. Yeah, it's like suicide is actually sick. You're like, oh, cool. Yikes. Okay, so then they're all at the homecoming football game,

and Lyle, the Waffle House guy, is there, and he's like, Hey, what's Abby's deal? She's extremely hot. So he's not gay after all. So he's not blue. And then Martin thinks that he needs to make this big grand gesture with

Abby, which Simon. And I was so mad when he did this. That was Simon's idea. Simon gave him that idea to do a grand gesture. I would argue he just says go big or, well, he says go big or go home. He throws it away. Yeah, to me, he's just trying to get Martin off his back.

He's like, go big or go home. He just says a cliche just to get rid of him. I guess. I don't know. Maybe I'm being too mean to Simon. But even in that W house scene where oh this was like one of the most unrealistic parts of the movie to me in the waffle house scene where martin does that thing of standing on the table and being like my name's abby and i'm beautiful and i deserve

the world and then eventually he convinces her to stand and she becomes okay with it i'm like like that just reminds me of so many tense drama club parties that I did not want to scream at, and yet. And she also, like, it gives the weird vibe that she's, like, now going to have a crush on him. Right. I was like, no, I think this is, like, fully humiliating and, like, not in line with her character. Yeah. I don't know. I felt bad for her in that scene, and I was like, Simon, can you help out with this?

But, you know know he's being blackmailed right right right so at the big game martin steals the microphone from the student who is singing the national anthem for the refugees very publicly professes his love for abby and then she's like oh i don't like you like that. And so to draw attention away from his humiliation, Martin leaks Simon's emails and outs him on that big blog. The little sister comes running in. She's concerned. He's like, get the fuck out of here.

A little bit before this, Simon thinks that Blue might now be this guy Cal who is in cabaret with him. Oh, right, right, right. So there's like a little speculation about that. So now that Simon has been outed, he's freaking out. He goes up to Cal and is like, are you Blue? And Cal says, I'm not. And then he ends up coming out to his family. Simon does.

It doesn't go very well. His dad like makes a joke about it dad is like the king of microaggressions yes like every time he's on screen he means well but he's not nailing it yeah so it had been like christmas break and now everyone's back at school and his friends confront him and they're like abby's like you pimped me out and that's very fucked up uh nick is like you tried to set me up with leah that was fucked up and then leah's like you're the one i was in love with and then you tried to set me up with nick that was very fucked up i hated this scene this scene sucked to me because it's like this kid just went through one of the worst things

in his life maybe he might ever go through and all of you can't fucking deal with the fact that like you went through a week-long period of like minor inconvenience socially because he was fucking getting blackmailed and drowning right i hated this and for them to leave him like that like that could have went really badly kids like that like that are closeted that are in that sort of state that have been publicly humiliated like that for you to bail on him i was like this is so fucked i understand why it happens in the movie version of this story because he has to go through like the low point where everyone has basically turned their back on him but in the context it just felt so like too much yeah and in a generally like the kids in this movie are generally pretty like i don't know it just like seemed out of character for all like it's one thing if they're like hey we're pissed

off that you did this but like bailing on him just seemed like he right yeah i know it's a movie i do sad i was worried that abby was just gonna let him off the hook for pimping her out. So her anger, I think, was the most justified. I didn't hate that she confronted him about it, but it was weird that they were all like, and you've been outed, and fuck you, see ya, maybe never again. I don't hate that any of them confronted him, I just don't, I don't know,

the fact that they completely abandoned him in a time where you know your friend is very vulnerable seems. They didn't even ask how he was doing. They didn't even check in with him. Like, hi, we can talk about what you've done to us, but first let's confront you on the street in this pack. And we're not even going to ask one question

about the fallout with your family or how you are, where your head's at. It might have worked a little better for me if like one friend couldn't let it go and it seemed more like a personal character but it was all of them

and so we're just like oh so they're right like it's just it was yeah I don't know totally so then there's a few scenes

where like Simon confronts Martin tells him to fuck off he has a scene with his mom where she's like, you're still you and I love you. She's garnering out and she's doing great. And then the scene with the dad that we already talked about a little. Emosh.

Yeah. That was a great scene. There's a great scene with Natasha Rothwell when these two bullies confront Simon for being gay and also Ethan, the kid that's already been out and Natasha Rothwell comes up and she's like basically tells them that they're pieces of shit forever and they will never not be

pieces of shit I want to make that my ringtone it was really good and then they all go to the principal's office and I love that even the gay kids have to get sent to the principal's office to hear their apology it's like we're totally putting the burden on them despite them being totally not yeah they're they're it's like i mean i love that scene between ethan and simon like was one of my favorite parts but i was

like man tony hale you really like don't know what you're doing he's at least it was clear that he was like that was the wrong thing to do because for sure he seemed so incompetent in that scene but i was happy that they did put ethan and simon together for at least one point because simon it gives the movie an opportunity which i think it could have taken more but the movie gets a chance to at least be like yeah i'm like gay black and also like not necessarily conforming to gender in the way that we all dress and everything like that so it's crazy hard for me and my family will not accept me unlike yours so it's like yeah i thought it definitely like started to shed some light on another perspective and i thought maybe we could have gone a little bit further with that um for

sure yeah but it was nice to at least hear from this kid, and it didn't just feel like the movie was using the kid as a prop. There was a bunch of the man who played Ethan, who, of course, is 27 years old, did a bunch of really good... Clark Jones. Clark Moore. Clark Moore.

Sorry. He did a bunch of really like, really good interviews around, I think, like, really took full advantage of being a part of this movie to, like, speak more to that. And said kind of what you said earlier, Matt, of, like, I hope what people take away from the movie is that even if you're in a very privileged position, it's still an impossible place to be in for a lot of people.

But he also, he spoke a little bit. I just want to share a quote. May I? Sure. Yeah, please. May I? He did an interview with Teen Vogue, incredible, and said, quote, we're used to seeing strong black characters, especially if they're effeminate. Ethan has some depth added to his character where he's not just the punchline.

He has vulnerabilities just as much as anybody else. Even though he's comedic relief he's also a source of inspiration for young people nervous about being accepted by others so i wish i mean this is like i wish he was a more meaningful part of the plot even though i mean they do he is seen a bunch of different times um but mostly in most of the scenes he's in he's being bullied by those two homophobe kids. It's true. Yeah.

I mean, I guess the best I could say for that is he is always above it and like always has a funnier, better response to it. I don't know. I don't know. What did you make of that character? I thought that it was interesting to watch it because i didn't know any out gay kids when i was in high school so i don't really know i didn't have a barometer for how they get treated it obviously was like painful to see the kid even though he always had a smart funny response to it and i like that they empowered the kid in that way and gave him his intelligence and his humor

so many kids don't have that and you know i wondered if like um that was a representation of the average kid like i think it was a good i think it was it's nice to see for gay kids that might be closeted to watch this movie and see themselves on screen this way and them to be given this this superpower which is his intelligence but to me it was like the reality is like this kid might be really depressed sure yeah and it seems like um it almost seemed like when simon turns to ethan and is like my life is over it couldn't be worse etc he almost really believes that his life is worse than this other kid right and i i don't know You can't expect too much of this movie because it is a movie for teens

and it is like a big studio film and it's supposed to be mainstream. But the reality of being POC and gay is like really so much different than it is to be someone like Simon. Right. And then also at the end of the movie, well, I guess you'll say who Blue is,

but Blue is black in the movie. And also just the reality of like, there's just so many more things that are going to be realities that they deal with. And I wondered if the movie wasn't, the movie was so blissfully diverse. Right. But with that kind of diversity comes a whole other

series of things to deal with definitely and i wonder if the movie was using diversity in a way that was like look we're a diverse film and then kind of ignoring a lot of the realities you know a kid a kid that's a kid that's like simon a white gay kid who's 16, 17 years old, they might not be at the point where the person reveals themselves and they're a black kid. He might be in the place where he's like, what is my parents going to think about this? So it kind of just felt like this whole,

it almost felt dumbed down in a way so that it can be woke. So it felt like it was raising its IQ. It feels like it's ignoring or not using opportunities to make statements that would have been helpful to make. It glazes stuff over. Yeah, for sure. And that was the one thought I had about the Ethan character. And I don't know how spot on this is,

but just the fact that he only becomes meaningfully involved in the plot to sort of explain something to Simon but we don't really get to see him be involved in the plot in a meaningful way where he's just like is rightfully so saying like this is my experience and like you are not the worst off of of everyone and kind of like chill out and take stock of of what you do have going for you because you know even though it's a difficult experience you're very lucky which is a great scene and I'm so glad it's there but it's it almost feels like that character is put there and then can't participate in any way other than to be that example yes and so he's there as an

example and then isn't really allowed to participate in the movie which kind of sucks because he's a good character and and there's a lot there that you think you know there's so many characters in this movie that there could have been like real estate freed up for him because like what if simon was friends with the only out kid at school like what would that be i don't know you know they it's almost like i almost feel like saying i'd also want to see like love ethan you know what i mean or another movie with him but it's like where's the franchise right you wonder if you wonder if a major studio would do that right and the answer is not i probably would not at least not today maybe in five years i mean you're talking about a movie that literally like has simon have like a quote-unquote gay daydream and it's him walking jauntily to like i will always no not i was

i want to dance with somebody while everyone wears like a bright colored t-shirt and i'm like seen in 500 days of summer yeah yeah i thought about that and he's like um horrible scene in 500 Days of Summer that I hate. Yeah, I thought about that too. He's like, well, maybe not this gay. I'm like, dude, this is not gay. This is colorful. This is not gay. Gay is everyone in this scene eating each other's ass. This is not gay. And so I'm kind of thinking, wow, this movie, it's about homosexuality.

No, you know what? It's about being gay. It it's about homosexuality no you know what it's about being gay it's not about homosexuality it's not about like actually reckoning with your sexuality it's about being different socially and it's about having secrets that's what it's about and so like it doesn't make any effort to pretend like it's more than that. Sure. You know what I mean? Because it's like PG-13. Right. And like I said, you can't expect too much of it. Movies about heterosexual teen romance are not about sex.

Well, largely. Right. But it can't succeed on every level that I think we'd like it to. Right. I mean, yeah, it's a teen movie that adheres to almost every like trope of the kind of like teenager with a secret movie. Yeah. Which is also why I feel like people should go easier on it. You know what I mean?

It's like, so I'm of two minds of it. It's like, I can see everything that you're saying is right. Also, the movie is this. Like it's not, it's just not gonna gonna maybe it's not gonna make a social comment maybe it is just for more people to see themselves on screen and if you are not in that more people that sucks like i'm sorry i hope that for everyone to be represented i personally hope for everyone to be represented it's like hollywood's issue right and it's not surprising that for the baseline of the first wide-release movie of this kind, for Hollywood to play it safe and be like, well, if we're going to do this and take this quote-unquote risk, then he'd better be white-hot for money. And that does make sense in terms of being the baseline of where Hollywood feels comfortable gambling.

That's not right right and that's shitty and bad and i you know everyone wants it i love ethan and like but it it does make sense to me that this is the first like quote-unquote gamble that they would take it makes sense to me on paper yeah you know what i mean i wish that hollywood would realize that actually when people most see themselves is when the stories are the most specific. Yeah. Like, for example, something that's a phenomenon. I don't know if it was a box office phenomenon, but it's a movie that everyone knows is precious.

Yeah. You don't get more specific than that. Like, it's a very specific story of trauma and struggle. Yes. But it really connected with a ton of people on many levels because it was bold enough to be that specific. Yeah.

So by kind of washing this story out and not allowing the intelligent conversations that would happen in real life to happen, I wonder if it actually could have made more money. If maybe people would have been a little bit more passionate about it.

Maybe. Because right now the conversation we're largely having about the movie is it's like, it was good. It could have been better if it had felt more real. You know what I mean? Which is like, you wonder how necessary that is. Sure. We need to take another quick break, but we will be right back.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app

apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey it's Jay Shetty and welcome to On Purpose I started this podcast to have real conversations that help you live with more meaning, whether it's navigating relationships, working on your mental health, or figuring out what you're truly here to do. This week, I welcomed back Dr. Andrew Huberman, a neuroscientist and professor at Stanford University, known for his insightful work on brain development, neuroplasticity, and the intricate connection between the brain and body. Letting go and not trying to control everything, but also pushing oneself to be more resilient and tenacious and things of that sort. I feel like all of life is like that.

All of life is about, yes, you need to take care of your physiology. You need to get your sleep at night. But it's also okay to get a bad night's sleep every once in a while. It's okay to not do every protocol. In fact, it's encouraged to not do every protocol. The expectation on us is not perfection, right? It's being able to toggle between these different states. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty

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Okay, maybe a lot of trouble. It's not really trouble when it's truthful. Let's just say we can be a little twatty. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'll just finish up the recap.

This is, I like, I'm enjoying this break in format. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, you know, it's discussion integrated within the recap. But the story is almost done. They're like, wait, but how does it end? Who is brown? Or who is blue? Oh, we've said it.

Fuck. We've said it. We've said it like 500 times now. How does it end? Okay, so Simon posts on the blog. After some of the, you know, intensity at the school has died down a bit. He posts on Creek's Secrets. And he says, I love Blue, whoever you are.

I want to meet you. Here's where I'm going to be after Cabaret. Hope to see you there because I deserve a love story and you deserve a love story and we all deserve love. He makes up with his friends. They all go to the school carnival together. He rides the Ferris wheel waiting for Blue to show up. For a while, it seems like he's not going to. And even Martin gets involved.

Even Martin. Oh, my God. Fucking me. Martin offers his guilt $4. He says, I love you. It's me. And then we're all in the audience like, if it's him, I'm going's fucking mean. Martin offers his guilt $4. He says, I love you, it's me. And then we're all in the audience like, if it's him, I'm going to fucking flip. And then it's not him. Thank God it's not Borat.

And he gives the Ferris wheel guy, imagine if it was the Ferris wheel guy. He's like, I'm blue. Mind if I say it to the people? He gives him like a couple dollars to keep it going for one last time. And then who shows up? And then who shows up? But, do-do-do-do. Bram!

I enjoyed that twist. Same. I enjoyed that twist. I was really happy it was him. Yeah. I liked it. He was my favorite candidate for Blue. Same.

Yeah. And the kiss. He says, are you disappointed it's me and i was like oh that's such a thing too is like you probably the kid was probably nervous because what if you get there he's like oh god never mind yeah it's a real martin abbey situation right right there it's worth it for me because you get that big moment of everyone cheering um while there is a queer kiss happening on screen, which never happens.

But just logistically, I'm like, oh, it's such a big ask to be like, hey, do you want to come out to the entire student body who are all going to be gathered? That is so much pressure. And Simon has just gone through this whole thing where he was put under too much pressure to come out publicly.

And I was like, I feel like you kind of i don't know i loved it yeah i loved it because it was like i think that it was obviously a message it's like i'm willing to be this brave right so i think like his bravery made made him want to be brave you know what i mean well yeah they talk about that so they you know what i mean like i kind of loved it and i kind of got it i could see that really happening in real life. If I thought of this happening, I was like, that I can see being a reality. I was wondering, if I'm in high school and if I was doing this and somebody was like, I'm actually going to do this, be here, maybe I would.

Maybe I would. I would love for that. I felt concerned for Blue. I was like, i hope blue is cool with this but they did talk about making each other brave yeah they inspired each other so that does make sense i just got nervous for him when that was a big ask it's a big ask but also he also kept expressing major love hesitancy of of wanting the world to know his identity and everything question do you think that they continued on into college

or is this a beautiful flash in the pan from senior year? I think that they had a really nice rest of the senior year, tried to be long distance for a short time, maybe even went too long, like six to eight months. And then it got just too hard at college where there's just so many other gay beautiful dudes and they just hold each other in high regard they'll always tell each other in high regard and guess what who knows maybe they'll even maybe it's not over maybe down the road but they've got more growing to do

i don't think it's one and done for these boys because simon says he's going to college in los angeles ever heard of it i know i was like where are you going i bet and you know because like he's going to a nice college he's probably going to usc and he does not have student loan debt that simon i'll tell you one thing about it he doesn't no he's able to go to west hollywood guilt-free and spend money honey he's going to hamburger mary's he's going to the abbey he's at chapel He is He is fucking You know He's going to Ackbar He actually works at Pump No way

Yeah he works at Pump He's a waiter at Pump Prestigious Yes of course Very prestigious Anyway So that's the story of the movie And

Yeah we covered so much We've covered a lot In story Already It's a great soundtrack, too. We didn't say that. Oh, Jack Antonoff. The music is really good.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A lot of bleachers. There's a lot I like about this movie. Yeah. And I would like to hear your opinions, our listeners' opinions on this. And we talked a little bit about how the movie handles race and kind of glosses over things that like a young queer person of color would have to deal with. It introduces all of different races and ethnic backgrounds

without needing to draw a lot of attention to the fact that they were attracted except for that one weird moment where simon is like fumbling with his words that was the one moment where there is any attention drawn to it which part is this they're at at the Halloween party, and he is still trying to pass it straight, and he's talking to his friend Nick, and Nick's like, oh, Abby's so hot. And Simon's like, yeah, she's hot, but she's not really my type. Not because she's black. I love black women, but I don't have a thing for black women. I just love all women.

So he's like – It's like a bad joke for 15 years ago it seems like yeah a bad attempt at humor like oh i'm not fetishizing her right but also i'm not not because it's needless yeah needless i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it kind of worked for me because he's in a stressful situation where he's like trying to pass so i kind of got that he was like stumbling over his there's so many ways to do that sure it was at her expense though yeah yeah and a lot is at abby's expense and it's it's tricky because it's like you know that ultimately this is martin's fault for being the worst most borat kid of all time like he's just like a borat poster come to

life but but it's like you know simon does sell abby up the river for almost i mean for what we have to think is the majority of their friendship because they haven't even known each other this long like it's just i mean i'm glad that she stands up to him. She, of all people, should have. But I don't know. Yeah. She was the only one who I felt like, you got a real bone to pick with him here. Yeah. You know?

Nick, that was just like a light cock block at best. Nick was not greatly inconvenient. There was no reason for Nick to turn his back on his lifelong best friend out of nowhere. Nor was there for Leah, really. I mean, although it's like, okay, she's disappointed. But again, it's like she was at best inconvenience for, I think you said like the space of a week. Yeah. It must be hard to hear that the kid that you're in love with not only doesn't like you, but like is, you know, different than you've ever thought. And then there's got to be a lot of emotions that go through your mind there, but not to the point of abandon thought. And then there's got to be a lot of emotions that go through your mind there, but not to the point of abandonment.

This is a critical time. Especially with what he's going through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That could be. And they do. I like that she is the first to forgive him, at least. And it makes sense to me that she would be the first person to be like, no, I love you.

I accept you and all that. Because he's chasing her when she's walking her dog or something, which is cute. I don't know. I like that scene, the reconciliation. To me, at least compared to the teen high school movies that were a thing when I was coming of age, of all those late 90s, like She's All That, 10 Things I Hate About You, those were like the things i was watching and none of those felt like real high school experiences or like anything

that anyone was dealing with or going through because they were all based on these like crazy bets that get way out of hand and it i never saw anything like that in my high school experience. This movie felt way more real of a depiction of the high school experience than those, at least. I bought it as a high school movie, even though the kids were looking what they looked like. I bought it for sure. It's like where everyone's going to be 25, which is almost always going to be true. It felt pretty... I mean, I also... It's like none of us have been in high school for a while.

So I'm like, I don't know if this is what a 2018 high school looks like. Like they had phones, seems realistic to me. Like that was my bar for like, does this make sense? I'm like, yeah, everyone's got phones. So clearly it's a 2018 high school. Another moment I liked, and I think this is part of why I think this movie feels a lot more realistic than a lot of its teen predecessors is that the big romantic gesture that Martin tries to do is very similar to the thing that we see in 10 Things I Hate About You.

Heath Ledger dancing across the bleachers. Shouldn't have worked. In that movie, though, Does work to win that character back over. So I like that we see it not working in Love, Simon. I'm imposing a moratorium on big gestures. They're not done forever but I just need

I just need a break. Sure. They're very aggressive. They're big. Yeah. They're big. They're huge. What I hate about them is they're too big. Yeah. And I crumble under pressure daily. It's putting a lot of pressure on the subject. So much. It's crazy.

Because then it's like you could do the most while you're performing this big thing in the football game. And then literally all people will remember is what the other person did to respond to it. That's what it's all leading up to. So it's really like you're defining their legacy in this moment. And I thought it was great that Abby was honest with him without being like, ew, which would have been a worse choice for that. That whole thing made me think, and I'm like, this is probably about gender in some way,

where I've had multiple conversations with my friends from high school or my friends from when I was younger, that if something like that ever happened or if someone ever asked you to marry them at a sports game, that we would say yes so as not to humiliate them and then later tell them, actually, I can't do that. That's what I was thinking I would do. Yeah, I mean, that was like,

I don't know why I've had this. Probably every time I see a gesture like this or you're at a sports game and it happens, you're like, even if I knew the answer was no, I would say yes to protect his feelings and then later be like, don't do big gestures. Well, literally, what would actually happen

if this were to happen in a high school is everyone in the crowd would be losing their shit laughing and then the girl would probably be like oh my god stop and she probably would like run it like at least this is the way it would happen in my high school so like so you would like run away my my like assessment of this moment is kids are not this mature like she's not just gonna measurably sit there and be like i'm so sorry but i just don't think of you like this but I would like

to be friends like no no one's doing that and that's the moment everyone's like she's 27 oh my god like

why is she here I don't know I feel like teens this day might have done that I don't know I don't know it read as okay for me I thought it was a good

aspirational scene of like okay best case scenario for everyone involved that is a cool way to handle it but they sort of lightly touch on how martin becomes the target of bullying after that and there's just like a bunch of shitty memes about like shut down yeah or like whatever but i think i think realistically abby would also be the target of some harassment based on that of like, you fucking humiliated him. Which is, I think, where that whole mentality of like, I would say, yes, even if that's not how I felt comes from.

Of like, you shouldn't humiliate someone in public, even if they're putting you on the spot in a way that isn't fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's a few other scenes that i really liked the hetero coming out montage where simon's talking about like why is the onus on queer people to have to come out like why can't straight people like you know this unfair societal expectation that's set up some great parent acting in that in that little bit and then we already touched on this a little bit but the scene where miss albright is like yelling at the homophobic bully kids oh that just energized me for yeah that was that was necessary we loved that character already and then she went all the way and uh yeah spit into

infamy and then i also really liked the scene where Simon yells at Martin for outing him because he's saying stuff like, you took everything away from me in terms of like, I get to... It was his moment. Yeah, it's like, I get to... This should have been on my terms. Yeah. How I do it, when I do it, to whom I do it, etc. And you took that away from me.

And Martin... I mean, that character is really well-written, I think. We all hate him, rightfully so. Irredeemable. Irredeemable. But it's just like, oh, my God, he's going to log into the incel board, and then we're fucking screwed. Martin is the type.

Incels have bore-out posters. It's just proof positive. I have 100 100 of them i also like a large part of the movie is seeing a lot of like male vulnerability okay so here's the thing there's not that much to talk about in terms of the representation of women in this movie which makes sense because it's a movie about a gay it's It's not called Love Alexis or Love Rebecca. It's called Love Simon. Simon is a boy.

So there's not a whole lot for us to talk about in those terms. But the things that I think are worth talking about are the idea of masculinity and sexuality. It does not pass the Bechdel test right I am not sure yeah I it's so weird because I'm so taken in by this movie that I wasn't paying as close attention as I should have it did call attention to the fact I'm like why aren't Leah and Abby remotely friends for people who seem to be together 100% of the time. They don't speak. We don't know. That was like one thing that bothered me about Abby's character and the way it was written

was that as much as we know she's like well-rounded, she's a great person and also hot. I feel like they do sort of like guys gal her a little bit because she has no female friends that we see even though she's around. She and Leah are around each other all the time hardly see them interact yes yeah which i know is like i mean that's not going to happen in this movie it's not their movie but i was like i moved it i mean it was just weird i did wish we saw a little bit more of them interacting you know not the worst thing to ever happen but real quick about like male vulnerability that we see, which we often don't see in most movies. Well, first of all, like Simon, the whole story revolves around him not being secure enough in his sexual identity to come out.

We see like Nick being insecure about his like sexual inexperience. He's like, you know, I've only had sex with one time, right? Things were slippery and I didn't put my dick in the right place and I'm insecure about it. Which was cute. Yeah, I really liked that. And then here's something that rubbed me in the wrong way a little bit where Martin, as he's seeking help from Simon, says something like, I don't want your help changing me. I want your help getting Abby to like me for me, which I think is an important thing to happen.

But I hate that it comes from this character who we're meant to hate and who is wrong every other time. In the movie, I wish we had seen. It's almost like the movie didn't decide who that kid really was. Was he just annoying and he's a good person at heart, but he's annoying? Or is he chaotic evil? He's like a vicious blackmailer who is blackmailing. But you're supposed to feel bad for him at certain points. It does feel a little...

I don't know. This whole movie, it is what it is, kind of kind of like we were saying but there are elements of it i'm like this is very focus grouped to the point where i'm like i'm not sure exactly who you're supposed to be that's what it is it just feels like it was trying to be too many things for two different people and it's like i don't know maybe the villain could have just been a villain right like that's fine he's irredeemable great but like don't make him this sympathetic like oh he didn't mean to out you and fuck your life up it's like no the whole four dollars thing at the end i'm like right that's not a redemption he doesn't have something horrible like if you

want to make arrangements for butt sex you know email sign like yeah oh god um does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie i would say that this i'm gonna shout out the soundtrack again the soundtrack gave me everything i loved it's like late 80s early 90s throwback sound i love that song wild heart i love that song strawberries and cigarettes that troy savant does on the soundtrack it's really good it's very evocative um it seems like they're almost like referencing john hughes they are yeah but yeah by doing that yep a brave observation by me jamie that i'm sure i thought that it was one of those movies where it was like maybe made uh maybe twice as good of a movie as it actually is with the music oh yeah i thought it actually like really served like an

atmospheric purpose sure which is what it should do. Wow. I think Alfred Molina could have played Simon. Sure, obviously. I think they could really stretch and make a 16-year-old man play a queer teenager. Now that is progress. It's so funny to even think about Simon as being queer because he's just so straight the whole time. Well, okay.

Stylized completely straight. That is one thing I wanted to touch on because we talked a little bit about this. That's some of the criticism around this, right? Well, he's just like, you know, he's the definition of walking the world with complete privilege. I mean, he doesn't even need to code switch. That just is who he is like to play devil's advocate and again i'm coming from a place of not being a gay man uh yeah thank you for saying that it needed to be said caitlin i know the people have been wondering i've been literally sitting here like when is she gonna

am i blue was i blue i don't know maybe. Anyway, so we talked a little bit about this on the recent Debs episode. But in that episode, I appreciated that because anytime like a lesbian is portrayed in a mainstream movie, usually, it is someone who presents as very butch, you know, they're made to adhere to these like rigid stereotypes. And similarly, when gay men are portrayed in mainstream movies, they're usually presented in such a way that they're very flamboyant. Because I think Hollywood's like, well, how will anyone know they're gay unless we make them so flamboyant? Here's what I would say about it. It's like, you're damned if you do. And you're damned if if you don't because if you depict the kid as being more gay acting quote unquote right then you get

a bunch of people that are like well there we are again depicted as being this way and then if you depict the kid as being very straight acting especially when he's played by a straight actor in real life right you get this thing of like that feels like erasure but there are tons of gay men that act like simon lots of gay men act more masculine it's hard to find a balance and i think it it speaks to it speaks less to what these individual films are doing and more to the fact that there just isn't and hasn't ever been enough representation period totally because every single time one character comes out, we put all the weight in the world on it. Like, for example, when I was growing up

and there was Will and Grace, it was like, are you a Will or a Jack? Right. And we didn't know what it was like to be anything else. So it was either you are really straight acting to where you would never know, and even the people that you date are really even more straight acting to where you would never know and you even, even the people that you date are like really even more straight acting

like cops. I don't know if you remember Will's boyfriend played by Bobby Cannavale who was like this like super butch cop or your Jack who essentially is a, like a joke.

You know what I mean? Sure. Like he was a broad stereotypes. Sweeping stereotype. stereotype yeah so i think as a result of that it's hard to gauge like whether or not this movie made a mistake or not right because like there just isn't enough representation and you can't say that people aren't out there and are gay and they act like that sure because they do there's a whole spectrum as it turns out yeah i don't know i think like this is weird to say they do. There's a whole spectrum as it turns out. Yeah. I don't know.

I think like, this is weird to say, but like as someone who sort of identifies as being somewhere in the middle, when I want to turn it on, I can be very flamboyant. And then the way I'm speaking to you guys right now, you know, I don't know if someone would quote unquote know. It's just hard because like we can't see ourselves.

All we see are like each other and then depictions of ourselves in media. And we're just not up there that much. So I think I don't necessarily have too much of a problem with this particular movie in that regard. Maybe, maybe, maybe there's something to the fact that they have a straight actor playing him. Yes. Which is like a case by case. It always feels tough. Yeah, I was going to ask how you felt about that I'll say this like

for example for the auditions that I go on it's hard because a lot of the characters are just like stereotypes you can feel them trying on the page to not make it like that like in the breakdown it won't be like gay and he knows it you know he wears a fucking crazy scarf he loves

to wave his finger it's like not like that but it's like whenever anyone writes girl comma in any line it's like okay you tried too hard yeah you know what i mean but it's at least interesting and least good to see them trying but i don't think we're ever going to get to the point where we're where we're not precious about each and every character depiction up there until we see more. And unfortunately, like, I'm not being offered to play a lot of straight parts. And I don't know a lot of gay actors that are out there openly gay who are just routinely booking straight roles. So when it feels like the vice versa is true often it's frustrating sure because there's tons of gay actors out there that are just as talented as these straight guys

and yet heath ledger and jake gyllenhaal allegedly straight actors um performing in brokeback mountain like the seminal gay romance of our time right and then to see that continue to 2018 and like love simon is like the gay mainstream movie and nick robinson is playing it and he's straight i'm not saying they all didn't do a great job it's just about representation that's all yeah and and the fact that i mean this i believe that this was adapted by and originally written by like it was written by top to bottom straight people yeah the director greg berlanti is gay so there's that that's good but like you said with the focus group comment you know this was filtered through a straight line this is essentially the abbey of like of like you know it's like a gay thing for straight people right um so it just feels like that i was surprised she's even named abby

i was surprised to learn that the novel that this movie is based on was written by a woman i thought for sure it would be a gay man but no it's written by a straight lady which is like yeah i mean with with stories like it's so hard to find a story and i think it does speak to like the amount of pressure that is put on queer stories because there's just not enough of them. But it's like, I feel like you can always trace it back to a pretty heteronormative source, unfortunately. When you actually lived that experience. Okay, so I really very closely almost went through this exact experience like i wasn't outed in high school but like the way that he goes about his life the interest he like

claims to have like i didn't not see myself in it and so that's why i was a little bit sensitive to the criticism but yet now having like time with the movie i can see the criticism you wish because it really got it really was there, you wish it had really gotten it. You know what I mean? And I do think with maybe three or four more gay creatives in high positions there, or maybe even a gay actor,

just a suggestion could have been made of like, I feel like he's too upset here, or he's not upset enough here. You know what I mean? There was specific emotional moments where I was like watching him act the situation. And I was like, it's so specifically something else. You know what I mean? Just as an actor watching it, I was like, this is all on the page, but you're not getting it right now.

Or like you're getting it right now, but the script isn't allowing you to say what it really is. Like there was a couple of times where it all came together. Like him saying like, this was my thing to do. And you took that from me. That's really good. You know what I mean? That was like right there.

But then there was like moments like with the dad and the mom where I just felt like more emotional response was needed or just like little tiny things like where it just didn't feel measured in the right way where I was like chemically I think that this actor

just maybe is just not capable of acting this scenario but I found him very appealing overall sure so focus group wise for everyone

the movie works for me who went through the specific experience and it is a specific experience and should be treated as such, I could just see the little things that weren't right. So it's like, yes, am I happy the movie exists? 100%.

Is it like a fucking grand slam home run to me? No, because it wasn't as specific as it should have been, which is the point I made before about like, that's when you really get at the heart of these things and move people is when you actually get specific yeah because i was more moved by precious than i was by love simon and i didn't i i'm not i didn't go through that right you know what i mean but i can appreciate the specificity and the attention to detail that goes into something like that whereas this was like okay you made you made a movie that tried to make a lot of money and make straight people happy

and make them feel good for seeing it. Which I am guilty of. No, but you should feel like that. It should make people feel good. Yeah, I mean, there's so many double, I don't know, with this.

It's a tough one and it all comes down to, like I said before, there just not being enough. So this is the first one and I'm happy it was the first one. Because you know what? You get into a lot of the nitty gritty about what actually goes down in Ethan's life and then it is a sad movie. You know what I mean?

But I do think this movie opens the door up to this conversation and therefore because this conversation exists that movie is more likely to be seen and i do think our eyes should be open to the reality of what it's like to be a queer person of color i don't think it is like and so you know it's even been eye-opening for me in the last few years like in my late 20s i'm much much closer with my close friends that are gay and also people of color and it's just like know, the sexual realities of that, the romantic realities of that, the social realities of that, the realities of that in terms of online dating,

in terms of usage of the apps. It's like very dark and we haven't even touched on it. My best friend is a gay man. I brag. Humble brag. Humble brag. Humble brag. Humble brag. Humble brag. Is he single?

I'm just kidding. No, he just bought a house. He purchased a condo. Oh, so he's fucking the house. Okay, great. He's taking over this fucking condo. But when he was single and on Grindr, he would show me all these profiles

of white guys being like, no blacks. No fats, no femmes, no Asians is the popular one. Mask only, like all that kind of stuff. And I was like, wow, there's still a lot of discrimination within a community that is marginalized and being repressed. That's the disease amongst especially white gays is, you know, they have this narrative in their heads. We have this narrative in our heads of we've been oppressed. We think it might be as painful or equal to anyone else who's been oppressed. overcome that quote unquote oppression, which most of us do in our teens or early 20s, we then feel entitled to saying, well, I've been through enough. Now I'm allowed to have my quote unquote

preferences. And so a lot of people aren't ready to reckon with the fact that like, they have racism in them, just because you've been oppressed in terms of a society like that, that you are a sexual minority or your, your sexual preferences are keep you in the minority. Like they think that they're like better than racism. They think that they're immune to it. And then it just as well. Yeah.

It festers. And of course, I mean, we like with white feminism, you know what I mean? Like it just doesn't include everyone. Sure. And so then you're on these apps and you think to yourself, I mean, with white feminism, you know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't include everyone. And so then you're on these apps and you think to yourself, like, we should be the last people where this is, like, thriving. You would think.

But, like, you can walk in the streets and not hear something racist. If you go on these apps, you will see something racist. Oh, sure. You will. I mean, and then there's all the like transphobia within the queer community yeah you know there's all kinds of like you know discrimination within these communities and it feels like we're making strides it feels like things are getting a little better yeah but and i think that the movie existing is a good thing

because i think ultimately the like and i know that's movie existing is a good thing because I think ultimately and I know that's not even what we're debating but it has been a debate amongst gay friends of mine who really don't like the movie because I think there's a mentality that this movie purports

to represent more people than it does and I don't think that's true I think that this movie is telling a story about a kid coming to terms with his sexuality. But like I said, because it's the only one, we put all this weight on it. And I think that because this movie exists, we're able to have these conversations

about what it gets right, about what it doesn't. And that's film criticism. Which is, for many people, what advances the cinematic form anyway. You're pushing the conversation forward. I mean, truly, especially in this room. Yes, we're such heroes.

Very brave. But it's been very interesting to see the conversation about this movie. I talked with someone one time. I really didn't like this criticism of it, but he said that he felt that the Natasha Rothwell character was a magical negro and I was like that's a really interesting weird

thing to say and he was like the movie uses her to like save the day and it's not fair and I was like yeah but what are you saying like if that part was played by Chelsea Handler would it make it like you could not change the script and would it make, like you could not change the script and would it make the movie stronger?

And so now, and that's when I think there was a real fever pitch around this movie where in the gay community, conversations like this were happening that were truly picking it apart bit by bit. And I think that is not helpful. You know what I mean?

Because I think Natasha Rothwell is amazing in the movie and I'm sure she feels fine being in it i'm sure she doesn't feel utilized in that way like we just want her to get paid as much as humanly possible right i was just like i was just like it's odd to me to like use that criticism against this movie but that's what was happening and that's what happens i think when there's just not enough representation because that's all there is to talk about if that's all there is to talk about, then we'll fucking talk about it. I mean,

the thesis of, of this discussion and our whole podcast is we need more and better representation. Okay. Okay. Back to test. I think there are a few scenes that come close i tried to document all of them but i think i might have missed some but like there's a scene where the mom is like let's watch the affair and

then simon says we can't watch the affair as a family and the mom says why not and then the sister chimes in nora we know her name she says because it's all about sex and then mom says god forbid we see people make love so it's like a conversation where men are present and then also contributing to the conversation. But there's like a two-line exchange where just the women are talking. Don't they need to be alone? Not in our version of it. Yeah, there's all these different caveats. I feel like this doesn't count.

Yeah, I feel I'm not so quick to say this one counts. Because they're talking about what the family should do. Yeah, it's also based on our response Simon has to it. And they're talking about heterosex. Yeah. Right. So probably not. There is a scene where Abby says, I just found a press on nail in my salad.

And then Abby and Leah at the same time say debbie they're accusing debbie of her nails falling off i'm so sick of these almost passes i know i think i don't know how to just be like who is that fucking judge who is like i can't define porn but i know it when i see it that's how i feel about the Bechdel test at this point. I'm like, no more of these bullshit passes. Yeah. And then there is a scene where Leah says, thanks for letting me stay over. Simon's mom says, you've been staying over for 10 years.

You don't have to thank us. And then Leah says, oh, yeah. That's about as close as it comes. Insightful. I know, I know, I know. I'm surprised women don't interact more in this. I don't know if i'm surprised i guess based on how many female characters there are we would have a few more interactions between women yeah but we only have like these and then a couple that don't pass the test and i guess that's not the objective of the movie but there are always like opportunities

to make those and i feel like leah and ab objective of the movie, but there are always opportunities to make those. And I feel like Leah and Abby are the biggest missed opportunity there. Yeah, absolutely. Because they're around each other the whole time. Yeah. And friends. Allegedly. And also I'm realizing right now that the mom and Leah discussing her staying over,

that can't pass the Bechdel test because they're talking about the house, and that house identifies as a male, I think. It's very big. It's making itself known. It's as a male, I think. It's very big. It's making itself known. It's taking up a lot of space. It's taking up a lot of space. And also the subtext is like, thanks for letting me stay over with Simon.

Yeah, exactly. Which also, why was that allowed? I'm like, I wish my mom when I was 17 just being like sleeping. That song though, playing while they were in that room. Is there a bone in my body that's not weak for you? I was like, this is fucking good. Take a hint, Simon.

What if you find one? Let me know. I was like, this is like a sexy adult romantic song. It was horny. It was very horny. The whole film was horny, and I liked that about it. Oh, yes. I'm fully.

I think it would have made me more uncomfortable if the actors were underage. But they were so clearly 40 years old. I'm like, no, this is great. They're 20. They're 40. Or 21. No, the younger sister was older than Natasha Rothbard. I love that.

They actually were in drama school together. Yeah, she's in the affair. That was an inside joke. She would say that. Oh, gosh. Okay, so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale, zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Oh, that's tricky. This is tricky.

That's almost not fair for this movie. Right, because the focus- I would give it a five, though. Would you? Yeah, because I think that the female characters it presents are all three-dimensional. I would agree with that. I think we do. You know what I mean? They they're not the focus they are not driving the story or at least if they are

it's passively because it's martin like blackmailing simon because he wants to fuck abby yeah right so they're not necessarily very active characters but the way they're written the way they're presented i do feel like they're dynamic yeah interesting, multidimensional characters. Yeah, in terms of just being in a script and being supporting characters, they're written well and they help the story. And they're not functional in a way that it feels like we're losing their integrity as characters. You know what I mean? The mom is like progressive and lovely and a good mom. Yeah. You know, but she's also interested in other things besides being a mom, which is something we don't see in a lot of these movies.

And it's so rare that we know what the mom's job is and we don't know what the dad's job is. That never happens. And it seems like, I mean, based on that, unless it was like a cut scene, it seems like she's the breadwinner of the family, which is cool. And also, you know, the character of Abby, like like she does she stays true to herself the whole time like she doesn't just allow herself to be talked about or like dealt with by the men she is truthful to herself you know leah the character she says what she feels and it's well performed and you get the sense that she'll go on to be a dynamic person yeah there there was i i the way i think about i mean it's like and it's kind of rare that you know

simon's two female friends better than you know nick i know almost nothing about nick he plays soccer he had sex once so like that's all we know about him really um where you do have like full scenes where i appreciated the extra work going into abby's character of like okay she's new she's from a lower class background we know she has like her dad is an alcoholic these are all things i think 15 years ago we would never find out about those characters yeah and the same with leah of you know i mean i can strongly identify with her being the long-suffering being in love with her gay best friend and just being like, no. But like it's played responsibly.

I'm glad that I mean, the only thing that made me feel weird is Leah turning her back on Simon in his moment of utmost need. That was very put off by. But I'm glad that Abby, I mean, Abby, I think, is like the best female character in the story because she she is always like almost to a point where it's unrealistic for a teenager to be so like mature and always knows the right thing to do. But it's I mean, it's like if we're making a movie to set an example for teenagers, which in theory this movie would be, then she's great. And I think it works well. And good for the little girl. She got a Cuisinart. Yeah.

Incredible. I hope she gets better at cooking. Because women be cooking. Women. But to me, though. But there's enough of like. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm going to give it.

I'm not prepared to give it a five. I think I'm going to give it maybe a three and a half because. How could it have been a five for you? Well, we. We should ask that question more. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because we in our ratings, we also take into account like the representation of people of color, of queer people, of other marginalized groups of which we almost never see on screen.

But because, as we've talked about, there's an introduction of at least two queer people who are also people of color, and the movie glossing over their experience, their specific experience, I feel like that could have been... I mean, the movie probably should have been like, love Bram or love Ethan.

Like, I mean, I think maybe we'll get there someday. We will. Because they said we would never get there. You know what I mean? Like 20 years ago, this was not a thing. True. So it will get there. We're slowly progressing as a people and a culture

and a film industry. But, and then, I don't know, this is tricky just because like women aren't the focus. It's a tricky movie to write. But if you're going to have a movie where women aren't the focus, great that it's a queer male love story. Like that's what that best I could hope for, I think.

I'm going to go four on it. I mean, the only, it's weird though, because it's like my only criticism of the female characters is I feel the same way about the male characters, is that they just feel a little bit uncanny valley, overly workshopped in certain places. But, I mean, again, it's a movie for young people. And so I think it can be almost dangerous to show a young female character being completely off the rails if there's not the real estate in that movie to address it. So I don't know. I thought that the women we see are great.

Yeah. Well, Matt, thank you. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you guys for having me. You know, we lifted the ban for good reason. But it's back on now. But it's back on. Yeah, no, don't have any more of us on here.

Aristotle's still allowed to die. Shout out to Aristotle. Shout out. What would you like to plug? Where can people find you online? You guys can follow me at Matt Rogers, though. It's Matt Rogers, T-H-O. Or you can listen or and

in addition to that you can listen to my podcast Last Culture with Bowen Yang where we discuss pop culture and wow I've heard of it talk about it it's one of my favorite shows

you can follow us at bechtel cast on the platforms all the platforms you can join our patreon five bucks a month two extra episodes a month kind of incredible you're gonna want to be a matron of our matron you're gonna want to join the matriarchy uh and then uh yeah our merch is on teePublic and you know have the best day ever rate and review us on the the Toons oh yeah

I love our Toons reviews are very unhinged and they're just like I'm like I get it I'm stupid they always make me feel so bad

oh I it's like cutting reading them I just on the way here I read a bunch I was a guest on another podcast

and I read the reviews and it was like oh my god people hate me so much. Caitlin has great self-control with that kind of stuff. I have no self-control. I read everything and I feel I'm addicted to feeling horrible. We should all be more like Caitlin.

We should. She's setting a great example. Look, I teach classes on how to be me. Yeah. Thank you again so much for being here, Matt. Yes, thank you so much. Thanks for listening and we'll be here next week. See you later.

Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning

her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What happens when a professional football player's career ends and the applause fades and the screaming fans move on? I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. For some former NFL players, a new faith provides answers. You mix homesteading with guns and church. Voila! You got straight away.

He tried to save everybody. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Jake Storielli here from John Boy Media. I want to tell you about my podcast, Wake and Jake. I've been a sports nut my whole life, and there's nothing I love more than talking about it.

If you're a sports fan, Wake and Jake is the place for you. Covering all the hot topics from the sports world. A lot of baseball, a lot of postseason coverage, mock drafts, awards, guest interviews, all of it. New episodes every Monday and Wednesday. Come watch along on the Wake and Jake YouTube channel or listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.