The Bechdel Cast - May December with Kiran Deol

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

On this episode, we chat with special guest Kiran Deol about May December. Follow Kiran on Instagram and Twitter at @shitfromkiran  We're doing live shows in early February in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego! Grab tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcast!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality,

cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast or wherever you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hello, Bechtelcast listeners. Wee-woo, wee-woo. This is future Jamie and Caitlin recording this a week after we recorded this original episode with two quick notes at the top. The first thing we want to do is plug the tour that we've got coming up. You've probably already heard about it, but in case you haven't, we are doing several live shows in early February. We

will be in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego in that order. The dates range from February 1st to February 10th. You can get more information, all the details, all the dates, as well as tickets if you go to linktree.com. And we hope to see you there. We have such fun shows. And we're doing barbie it's the barbie tour we've been inundating you but yeah we're already sold out in dallas and sacramento but stay tuned there may be more shows announced and get your tickets to the other shows yeah the other thing we wanted to touch on really quick this is a movie that is both about highly sensitive themes and it just came out so since we recorded this last week there has been

a fair amount of reaction and the reaction to the reaction and we've had a week to sit with the movie and we have a few more things we just wanted to talk about so if you want to get to future Jamie and future Caitlin's thoughts on that and I guess I don't know why I'm like hiding it that uh Vili Fulao has now seen and reacted to May December if you're not aware who that is this movie I think is pretty clearly based on the Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fulao abuse saga of the 90s yes and you know he has since reacted to the movie there's been reaction to the reaction we're going to talk about it and I also feel like I'm losing listeners at the very beginning because the filmmakers. There's been reaction to the reaction. We're going to talk about it. And I also feel like

I'm losing listeners at the very beginning because the filmmakers insist it's not based on that. Just go to the end of the episode. We also talk about it

in the content of the episode. It's a monster. This was a really challenging episode that we had a great time recording. It's just because this movie for everything we liked

and disliked about it is really challenging. So buckle in we hope you enjoy the discussion and we'll see you in the future at the end of the episode yep enjoy on the bechdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast i don't think we have enough hot dogs and that's when i knew i was going to enjoy whatever happens in the movie may december which i did not know

what it was about or any of the themes. Wow. I know. But the hot dog representation is very prominent, especially in those first five to 10 minutes. Yeah. And they're making more hot dogs than there are people. We're talking about three to a head by my math. Yeah.

Unless there were some kids I wasn't seeing. Whatever. Welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. And on this podcast, we always have enough hot dogs. Over the years, some have said we have too many. It comes up too much. An abundance. A surplus, if you will. A murder of hot dogs.

And I'm Caitlin Durante. And this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. And boy, do we have a conversation to have today. Do we really do? Yes. The Bechdel test is a mediometric originally created by Alison Bechdel, along with her friend Liz Wallace. That's why it's often called the Bechdel-Wallace test.

Originally appeared in Alison Bechdel's comic Dykes to Watch Out For. And the original intention behind it was just like an examination of do women speak to each other in media, in movies, and how fucked up can it get? This movie seeks to answer that question. It really, truly does. I feel like that's sort of a concerted interest of Todd Haynes' work overall. He wants to see how many fucked up ways he could pass the Bechdel test. And I think that that's a really noble pursuit. It is.

It is. We're proud of him for it. In any case, there are many different versions of the Bechdel test. The one that we use is as follows. Do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? Is the conversation about something other than a man? And a little caveat that we add is, is the conversation narratively impactful or is it just kind of like throwaway dialogue that could easily be cut? Not an example of this is we don't have enough hot dogs which i think passes the

bechdel test because just because we don't hear it doesn't mean the hot dogs didn't answer they said there is enough hot dogs look at us there's 60 did you see how many damn hot dogs charles melton was grilling there was enough yes anyway we're talking about may december i feel like it's been a while since we've talked about a movie like right as it was coming out yeah but this movie went directly to streaming so so it's allowed we can do it it always stresses me out to do a movie that recently has just come out because i'm like i need more time to mull it over so i kind of feel that way about this movie i mean there's a ton to go through and i think like yeah this is the kind of feel that way about this movie. I mean, there's a ton to go through. And I think like, yeah, this is the kind of movie that like the conversation will evolve

with age too. But there's been, I think, a really interesting wide variety of discussion, including the classic like Golden Globes, like, why is this being called a comedy? Right. I just am so exhausted with that conversation in general. I don't want to hear it. We have an amazing guest joining us today who bravely requested to cover this movie.

Yes, indeed. She is a comedian. She'll be releasing an hour special later this year. So be on the lookout for that. She's also in the Shudder movie, Destroy All Neighbors, which I think at the time of this episode's release will be available on Shudder.

Incredible title. It's Kieran Deal. Welcome. Hello, you guys's Kierne Deal. Welcome. Hello, you guys. This is so exciting. The excitement is all ours. I love the way you're like, she bravely suggested this movie,

aka she doesn't watch films anymore and happened to catch this on Netflix because she was like, oh, I know Natalie Portman. Let's see what this thing is about. And then I thought it was the director of Tar, which I believe I told Caitlin. I thought it was two Tods.

We were talking about, yeah, the various interests of the Todd O'Toole community in the last two years or in the last 10 years. Men named Todd seem to be obsessed with making movies where the thesis seems to be, you know, women can be sex criminals too. Which is true. Which is true.

And the Todds feel that they are the one to say it. I also think that these Todds also have a vested interest in casting Cate Blanchett as a complicated lesbian. Because we have that in Carol and we have that in carol and we have that in tar different kinds of kate blanchett's on display but todd's nonetheless anyway what's your history with this movie caitlin i had just seen it for the first time four or so days ago i considered not watching it a second time because it is a decidedly uncomfortable movie, but I was like, I gotta do my job. I need to absorb it more fully. So, yeah, I've just seen it twice now in the past few days, and I'm excited to talk about it, or I guess, like, I know we kept

being like, is excited the right word here but I found it intriguing certainly and do I ever want to watch it again after this I would say not no but I think it will elicit an interesting discussion Jamie what about you this is going to sound excessive it is completely by coincidence that I have I have not seen so many award season movies this year, but I've seen May, December three times now. I watched it the weekend that it came out because once I did find out what it was about, this is weirdly, it sounds weird to say that this is in my wheelhouse, but because I did the Lolita podcast a couple of years ago, I've seen and analyzed quite a few movies that have

predatory and abusive dynamics we've talked about it i think briefly on the show i can't for the life of me remember in what episode this would have come up but how infrequently up until quite recently like representing an abusive dynamic and child sex abuse that takes place between an adult woman and a young man is like almost never shown or discussed up until pretty recently so once i found out what this movie was about and also the tabloid case that it was loosely based on which i was brag too young to remember so i had to kind of go back and do some research on how heavily based it was. But so I was really interested to see this movie.

I feel like it does, like, with a movie where this is the subject matter, which is, I mean, like, we'll place a trigger warning in this entire episode for child sex abuse, for emotional abuse, for kind of every sort of toxic relationship dynamic that you could imagine. And also women being assholes, which is my favorite one. But yeah, so I was really interested

to see it. I think it's really like well written and well done and well acted. I have some thoughts on it. I'm really excited to talk about it with y'all. And then I also saw before I prepared for this episode, I went to a SAG screening where Julianne Moore and Charles Melton and Todd Haynes spoke after the movie. And I thought that the way that they discussed what to me felt like a very clear theme in the movie to be very interesting. So I'm excited to talk about that as well. Yeah. But in general, I think it's at least for how generally poorly this subject matter is handled in media that this feels like a stronger attempt and also is about other things too. And I think it's cool how the Natalie Portman character is just sort of this embodiment of how cynically media tends to treat abused people.

True. Kieran, how about you? What's your relationship with this movie? So I watched the film and I remember thinking, huh, okay. So I didn't really know what it was about. And I was curious. And I watched the whole movie. And then I was like, huh,

interesting, interesting. Then I went into a, a kind of wormhole of looking up the source material about the movie. And like an interview that is by aussie press on the film that's about 20 minutes long and it was one of those movies for me which i think is interesting i was like huh interesting okay cool and then it was like as the evening went on or as i went out and then like i was like why don't i feel good? Why is,

why is there like a niggling feeling that like I was weirdly cheated or something like what's bothering me is what I was. The question I particularly felt what's bothering me. And it took me a while to unravel that right around that time is when I got Jamie's email saying, what movie would you like to choose? And that's my history with this film. Well, I'm excited to talk about that feeling that you were feeling in a bit. I mean, I am old enough to remember the Mary Kay Letourneau case.

Oh, yeah. Let's just say what the case is yeah yeah yeah so the movie is loosely based on mary k letourneau who was arrested in the late 90s on two counts of child rape because she sexually abused a 12 year old boy named and i might get this pronunciation wrong vili fulao and yeah i remember when this was in the tabloids and just like the regular news like this story was covered very heavily in 97 when it happened what was your memory of like how it was covered? I was 11 at the time, so I don't think I had quite, like, a nuanced enough interpretation. I mean, maybe this is just, like, me retroactively having, like, my adult brain and being like, yeah, I remember it being super sensationalized, but I don't know if that's actually true. I think so. Yeah, I just remember it was covered

very heavily, and I do remember a lot of people's responses to it, just like people my own age. There were boys that I went to school with who would have been around the same age as the survivor of this abuse, who were like, oh, I wish, you know, XYZ teacher would do this to me. And like, just that was a lot of the response that I was hearing from like my peers. It was a bizarre time. Can I say one thing I do find really fascinating is how when you are a kid, especially when you're kind of like going into those teenage years, how much of a grown up you feel like, and how certain that adulthood can feel to you. Even to the point where like, I've had like a nephew, like, and I remember like taking my

nephew around and I was like, we're going to stay up until 10. And he's like, no, I'm putting my foot down. And I have to like, kind of stop and be like, no, wait, I'm the grownup. I'm the grownup. No, no, no. I pick when we go to sleep. You know what I mean? Like you're still a kid. Yeah. And I think about that with something like the movie kids, you know, like, watching it when I was in college or something, and seeing it and kind of being like, yeah, this is how kids are versus then seeing it as a grown up and then being like, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. How terrible. Oh, no. That's the differential I hear when you're

talking about those boys, which is just a really interesting developmental difference, you know? For sure. One of the things I appreciate about this movie is it attempts to comment on how media portrayed cases like this through the Natalie Portman character which we'll like get into but when she's like being tasked with helping to cast like an underage actor and she's giving notes that they're like quote-unquote not sexy enough and then when you see the product at the end of the movie the character has clearly been aged up which almost always happens in movies of this nature which in

some ways it's i think a positive thing certainly for the actor like you don't want that to be happening to a 12 year old actor again interesting that natalie portman is in this because she's in leon the professional which is very much that kind of role and yeah there's like so many weird layers to this movie but then it also as a viewer conditions you to think that a 13 year old isn't a 13 year old a 13 year old is a 16 year old and a 16 year old is a 22 year old and it's like the way that it's also weird that we have charles melton because that's what riverdale is you know he's like 30 years old playing a 17 year old sure i don't know like yeah this movie touched i guess i have thoughts on it but this movie did end up touching on way more than i thought it was going to on like the way that stories about child sex abuse are covered and then subsequently like portrayed because natalie

portman's character really thinks she's doing something when in fact she is part of the problem the most evil person alive i can't i the one thing i like about her character is that she openly hates her fiance because it seems like he sucks yeah and so that's the one that's the one place where i'll be like all right i see it well let's get into it with the recap but before that let's get into it with the recap. But before that, let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance.

It's tradition. It's more than just entertainment. Lucha Libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. It's tradition. It's culture. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Santos! Santos!

Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown.

I was crying, and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in.

Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Here we are. Okay, so here is the recap. And we'll place another content warning here for child sex abuse, emotional abuse, grooming, things of that nature. I just do want to apologize for uh for covering this film uh one more time thanks a lot kieran so sorry so sorry i mean these things

must be discussed so no it's true and it's not the first unfortunately it's not the first time it might be the first time we're talking about well it doesn't matter it's we've talked about it on the show before unfortunately unfortunately. Many times, yeah. Also, Kieran, feel free to jump in. It's a very open summary discussion. Okay, so we are in Savannah, Georgia, and we meet Gracie, played by Julianne Moore. She's prepping for a barbecue with her husband, Joe, played by Charles Melton, who is noticeably much younger than gracie there's talk of a movie star named elizabeth berry who is going to be there doing research for a role and she'll be shadowing gracie because elizabeth is playing gracie in an upcoming movie

she keeps calling it art house it is revealed at the end that it appears to be Lifetime. Right? She's like, it's an Art House movie. I was like, oh, I don't know. Seems like you're in Burbank. Got their ass. Wow, a lot of Burbank shade. Wasn't expecting Burbank shade.

I mean, dunking on the valley. Wow. Just throw a grenade to start the discussion. Sure. Burbank hasn't had enough difficulties hasn't burbank been through enough yeah exactly wow wasn't expecting that from this i'm so sorry i didn't sleep last night all due respect to burbank i love burbank i mean they have three amcs all within a like 500 foot radius of each other yes some of your best friends live in burbank y'all we've

heard it all before jamie yeah i'll never live it down okay anyway so elizabeth berry we meet her on screen she's played by natalie portman she shows up to gracie's house and gets acquainted with everyone including gracie and joe's teenage kids, twins named Charlie and Mary. Gracie seems apprehensive about this situation where this movie is being made about her. There's mention of, you know, like, getting the story right and making sure Gracie is seen and understood. There's a friend of Gracie's who tells Elizabeth, like, be kind in your portrayal of Gracie. Also, we see that someone has sent Gracie a box of, like, literal shit in the mail. So, something's going on. We don't quite know what exactly yet.

And it already, like, we covered Sunset Boulevard yesterday and it's just like already just a real week of characters that are women in their 50s who have an entire scary bubble to protect them from reality surrounding them from moment one. Yes, indeed. So, then Elizabeth starts studying Gracie and going through tabloids from the early 90s. And we get a glimpse of who Gracie is and what her story is. She had spent time in prison. She gave birth while she was in prison. And there are pictures of her with a very young Joe. We're talking like middle school age. So, things are starting to come into focus. Elizabeth spends more time with Gracie, asks her and Joe a bunch of questions. We learn that Gracie's eldest son from a previous marriage, his name's Georgie, is the same age as Joe. We also learn that Gracie and Joe met when he came into a pet store where she worked. He was

looking for a job. So, we're getting more details. And then Elizabeth meets with Gracie's ex-husband, Tom, and he confirms the full story, which is that Gracie, in the early 90s, when she was 36 years old, started an affair, aka committed child sexual abuse with Joe when he was 13 years old. Then Elizabeth continues her research, interviewing people around town, such as the owner of the pet store where Gracie was caught sexually abusing Joe. She talks to Gracie's defense attorney, as well as Gracie's older son, Georgie, who tells Elizabeth that this ordeal ruined his life. There's also ongoing tension between Gracie and Elizabeth because Gracie still just seems uncomfortable about the idea that this movie is being made. She thinks that, like, Elizabeth is

just kind of, like, meddling and always around too much. Which is true. Which is true. She is. Yes. And then there's a different kind of tension between Elizabeth and Joe. She points out that they're the same age, more or less. And it also feels like Elizabeth is trying to flirt with Joe when she goes to visit him at work.

Joe tells Elizabeth, people act like I'm some kind of victim, but Gracie and I have been together for 24 years. Why would I stay if I wasn't happy? And it's not clear at this point how Elizabeth feels about this whole situation. Then things start to really fall apart. We see Gracie having a meltdown, although the thing that she's crying about is cake because she's like all of norma desmond's fan mail is written by her butler all of gracie's cakes are purchased by her neighbors just to like quote unquote keep her busy right which yes very bleak why did they live in such a nice house i don't know i asked that so many times and my boyfriend kept making excuses he's like maybe she sold her life right that maybe that's why i was like maybe but that's the only thing because it doesn't it doesn't make it sound like either of them wrote a book he works as an

x-ray tech which is a good job but not like mansion good job like i don't i don't understand it's a weird thing where it's like a lot of the issues i have with this like i love that it's two women two strong female leads whatever but like a lot of my issues with this movie are actually around class and the treatment of the Charles Melton character, the lack of development of that little boy. For sure. The fact that he is a prop in this movie, the fact that none of the relationship is explored, the fact that, you know, you're saying it's an interesting commentary, Jamie, on like the press and the predatory nature of the media, but Julianne Moore is letting these people into her home is the other piece of

it so there's there's definitely like a duality to that also i just think back to film school or any time that like not that i went to film school but what i've heard the people who went to film school have said is like isn't there always like something about being first person and verite which is kind of like you know understanding the psychology the depth of the psychology of like verite in terms of having putting somebody in the firestorm of the most interesting action and the immense privilege that comes with like having this very slow burn like you took the least interesting approach on this insane topic like you did it through the point of view of a lifetime movie actress walking into the home of like the 24 year relationship

between a teacher and a child. And we follow Natalie fucking Portman. What are we doing? We're talking about hot dogs and cake. I'm so sorry. No, I'm excited to discuss this further when we like get into the full discussion. I'm so sorry. And i'm excited to discuss this further when we like get into the full discussion sorry and i interrupted your very thorough breakdown i mean you don't even have

to watch this film i love it but like these are the things that you do want to talk about so we'll get to it but anyway gracie's having a breakdown because someone stopped ordering her cakes and i'm like sure okay anyway then there's a scene where joe also breaks down and cries because he's high on drugs and we sense that he's like starting to maybe kind of interrogate things from his past and caitlin he's never done drugs before and right he does drugs on his roof with his teenage son and his teenage son gives him the drugs. And he's never done them before, indicating some level of like, you know. Arrested development, perhaps.

Yeah. I mean, I completely agree with you, Karen, that Joe is an underdeveloped character who has been sidelined in these narratives his whole life and is still being sidelined 24 years later. Like it's still very clear that Gracie feels like she is the romantic protagonist of this story and it's like he's sidelined in every single way including in this movie so I feel like I had to like cling to little details like and he never got to smoke weed

because of the way his life has gone and also just like how tremendously controlling she is like one of the first details that i picked up on is like when he enters the scene for the first time she's like that's two beers today and it's like oh my god let the man live away from you you yeah let him go anyways yes then we get a scene with a graduation dinner because their twin kids are about to graduate from high school and afterwards elizabeth talks to georgie gracie's adult son who tells elizabeth that gracie's older brothers sexually abused her starting when she was 12 years old but that gracie refuses to talk about it. And she still has a close relationship with these brothers, it seems. Then Joe gives Elizabeth a ride home and they kiss and they have sex.

And she keeps telling him that he's young and he could leave Gracie and start over. And he's like, no, I would destroy her. And this is my life we're talking about. And he gets upset and storms out. And then he goes home and has a conversation with Gracie, where he's like, hey, like, what if I was too young when we got together? And she shuts it down. The emotional abuse and manipulation really amps up here where she's like you're the one who seduced me and he's like um i was 13 and she refuses to listen to him or allow him to express his feelings and she storms off and that whole scene is i forget if we've talked about this already but like that whole scene is pretty directly pulled from an actual interview that Mary Kay Letourneau did on television like it's horrific hearing it in a

private setting but then when you go and watch the clip you're like it's just like so horrible and uncomfortable to watch it's the who's the boss line like like she repeats this so many times in that yeah who's in charge or who was the boss who's the boss i thought that was the most interesting scene in the film to me that felt like the starting point of a film you know that felt like like from there from that jumping off point now let's explore joe yeah let's figure out who joe is and let's figure out what this is and the fact that that was the culmination of this movie, it took a while to settle in. Cause I do think the directing is good.

I think all of, I think especially Natalie and Julian are both like incredible actors. Like, so kudos to like the makeup scene, which I know you didn't mention Caitlin, where the two of them are putting on the makeup is like, I thought that was very compelling. Like when Natalie does the monologue,

it's very compelling. Like just the performances are really marvelous. So I could understand why they were attracted to the performances. But from a storytelling point of view, I was just like, bruh, like way to focus on the least compelling and least important. I would say part of this narrative.

Bah, rah, rah was my answer. Okay. So Gracie kind of is manipulating him and she shuts this conversation down then we cut to elizabeth rehearsing a monologue where she's impersonating gracie you know she's like preparing for this performance she's going to give in the movie the words that she's rehearsing are presumably coming from a letter that Gracie had given to Joe at the start of their relationship. Joe gave this letter to Elizabeth and now she's like performing this as a monologue.

And in the letter, Gracie acknowledges that she crossed a line, that what she's doing is illegal and unethical. So she knew at the time what she was doing she lies about the whole movie that she like and that was like an element of the marikaela turdo story too she was like i was not aware that sexually abusing a child was illegal i was like yeah fuck you like you're like girl you're a teacher you're a teacher yeah you're a 36 year old teacher you fucking freak anyways yes okay so then it's the day of the twins graduation and gracie approaches elizabeth afterward and she's like you know that thing that my son georgie told you about my brothers that was a lie georgie is really insecure but not me i'm a very secure person parentheses putarentheses, put that in the movie.

Bone chilling. And we're like, ah. And then we cut to the set of the movie, the biopic that Elizabeth is shooting about this ordeal. And it's fucking creepy and gross. The end. Yeah. And Caitlin, can I just add that in that last scene where it was like Julianne Moore approaches

Natalie Portman, which she's like, my son told you that that and none of that was true. Natalie was like, oh, wait, what? You know, wait, he told you that. And then she goes, of course, I speak to him every day. And there's kind of like this in the same way that like what's her relationship with it like if you're looking for the breadcrumbs of it it's like what is that relationship with that son then no idea like that scene is consistently baffling to me where i'm like there's no reason to believe gracie she's completely delusional but also

because of what she put her family through her son is not a reliable narrator either that like horrible cringy scene where he's like i will give you information for your yeah if you let me be the music supervisor yeah right he's like i know good songs and you're like oh my god i hate this. It's just a catastrophe. And then the other one was when Julianne Moore like leaves the bathroom because the scene where it's the graduation dinner kind of goes terribly wrong. And the children who have left the house are kind of like out of her grasp or spell and maybe seem to realize that their lives have been particularly messed up. And so there's a level of rebellion. She gave them a scale for their graduation gifts or whatever. And she wanted a beautiful time. that their lives have been particularly messed up and so there's a level of rebellion she gave them a scale for their graduation gifts or whatever and she wanted a beautiful time and then natalie

happens to be in the bathroom at the same time and one line i do remember thinking was like quite interesting was like the i guess i've always been naive you know and that's helped me or something like julianne moore says something to that like i've always been naive yeah you know this character's obsession with control including controlling how well wait should we take a break yeah let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and really dive into this discussion so we'll be right back Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now.

The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think of Mexican culture,

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to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know, that's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea.

So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like, how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?

There absolutely is, and we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So, yes, we've already kind of started this discussion and let's keep going yeah karen i want to go back to what you were saying about how i mean i think joe is the character to really start with here because like i completely agree that we we're kept at arm's length from him the entire story and you start to see towards the end there are a few really beautifully done scenes by Charles Melton in the scene where he's finally confronting his abuser and stating what's happened I think the scene with his son is really good too and like there's a few

really good scenes with him late in the movie but for the most part we're kind of like kept at arm's length from him and i wasn't able to like i don't know i don't hate the framing device for this movie but i also think that there were ways that were like obvious to more meaningfully include joe even within that framing device but then i wonder i'm like is it possible when it's like to me this movie should be more about joe but then it seems to want to be about a like struggle for narrative control between gracie who's pretty obsessive about getting people to think a very certain thing about her that isn't true and she knows that like she's not a naive person at all she's a control freak that wants people to think she's naive but that comes at the expense of focusing on who's been abused and like I feel

like that is like consistently an issue no matter how well other portions of it are done that seems to be like a consistent issue in movies about abuse and also just dealing with abuse on a longer timeline because that's so like you never see that someone coming to terms with abuse you know over 20 years later which is like a common experience. And I feel like, yeah, we were kind of cheated by not getting to go with Joe on that journey more. Did you see that other movie by that filmmaker that was on HBO? I think it was nominated for an Emmy and it was about her abuse experience

and kind of realizing that this relationship that she had when she was like 13 years old was actually an abusive one. Did this come out a couple years ago? Yes. Okay. I did. I can't remember what it was called.

Oh, God. I hate these search terms. But yes, sorry, continue. Can't remember the name of that film, but I remember thinking the psychology of that film was so illuminating. And even the way we are discussing this film now feels like it has more

depth and substance than what was put on the page in the movie I watched. And it's like the audacity to take this topic if you don't have the kind of grit to examine the psychology of like who these people are, why they are the way they are, when the culminating scene is the last scene in an actual interview, like when that should have been kind of a jumping off point. The whole thing felt for me, the kind of, you know, the third person, like really abstract eye of the framing device on top of it to remove you even further from that narrative just felt like, like, again, I watched this movie and i was like oh that's well directed that's like these actors are great and then there was a niggling feeling and i was like why don't i what is it that's bothering

me i always felt like something was going to happen and like nothing happened and it's like all in hot dogs and cakes and like the entire movie is existing in these like these scraps that you're kind of clawing for. And it never felt like it ever came to a head or illuminated anything or came together. And so in that way, it becomes the exact voyeuristic exercise that it's trying to comment on, you know, because it's offered nothing of actual value into the human psychology. This is the last thing I'm going to say. And this is a thing that has bothered me a lot. And I don't think a lot of people talk about it in entertainment. It's like when you watch the real interview of the guy, he's like a dark skinned kid, you know, and the actor that they cast is a biracial actor. You know, he's a pretty like white passing face you know it's like why is that okay so much of the time like why are we willing to do that with these actors who should be like that's a real person i remember seeing that in the facebook movie and social network like there's

an indian guy named divya real indian guy anthony mhella ends up playing him again a very like light-skinned person a very light who's not Indian he's not he's not Indian he's like I mean and this is like a brown dark brown skin this is a real person you know and we're we're so specific when it comes to like oh well who's a real cab driver or who's a real like do you know what I mean like all then it's all about authenticity, but what are your emergency rooms look like? You know, like what are your doctors look like? And then what are your doctors on television look like?

And a lot of that to me, I can feel myself getting angry and I don't want to be that person. I'm reading Thich Nhat Hanh right now to try to deal with the seeds of my own anger. But quite frankly, I do still blame the world. That's the truth. It is infuriating though. Like you have every right to be angry about this.

But then it's really like, what is the eye of the person or the institution or the system that is making the film and what they deem as like, I'll pass. That's fine. That doesn't matter. And what is seen as important. And I say that specifically because this is a real person. This is a real person. And you see the casting controversies over the Little Mermaid being black and fictional characters. It's just wild to me that in these cases where you have a real human being there was no maybe there was an effort made i don't know and then the irony is that the screenwriter is a casting director you know so right girl like girl i found it well it's kind of like a two-pronged thing first of

all this movie is completely disinterested in talking about any race or class dynamics in a way that is very frustrating because they're right there and it's like I still I do think that this movie is unique and that there are elements of it that definitely like I haven't seen before that I thought were positive but it is like there's so much that's kind of left on the table and leaves you feeling frustrated for days afterwards where it's the only clue you sort of get within this relationship that Gracie is very disinterested and dismissive of Joe's race is that she gets it wrong the one time that it comes up she says oh you were the only Korean family in the neighborhood he's like well half Korean and she's like yeah yeah yeah and family in the neighborhood he's like well half korean and she's like yeah yeah yeah and then keeps going so it's like this is allegedly someone that she

loves and can't even you know isn't even interested enough to get that correct but outside of that it goes essentially completely undiscussed and unexplored and i feel like on the writer's part i feel bad like she's a first time screenwriter she came out of casting like great flowers to it all happening and like it's absolutely an impossible business and we are happy for you and the fact that like you know women don't get to write movies enough obviously you could tell a woman wrote this movie all that said i i think that there's like just it rubs me in such a weird way that this is so obviously the mary kay letourneau story but in every single interview i've seen that is like either like walked back by every single person who's asked anything about it

and i feel like kieran like speaking to your point one of the things that you can get away with by taking a step away from the story, it's obviously based on to the point where there is an entire scene that is ripped from an interview related to this case, is that you could quote unquote, get away with changing the race of a character and casting a lighter skinned actor. Because you're like, well, it's not that story it's a different story when that's absolutely not true and then also watching that interview you can see that Billy Fulao is sitting next to Mary K. Letourneau incredulous that whole time where with Joe it's more like in the context of the scene of where we're at in the movie it makes sense but it's just like joe isn't allowed that like sense of incredulousness that is reflected in the real story because when we do see that in joe's character arc it's not until the last 20 or

25 minutes of the movie and then we cut away from that and then the rest of the story focuses back to gracie and elizabeth and then the movie of the story focuses back to Gracie and Elizabeth. And then the movie is over. So like, like you said, Kieran, like right when, because sure, like the agenda of this movie is to examine, you know, like how difficult it is, especially for people who abuse and specifically child sex abuse for whom it has been normalized those people having a difficult time kind of interrogating that because it has been normalized but then you know when they start to examine it and think about it and acknowledge what happened and reflect then they start to be like wait a minute this was messed up like this is a very traumatic thing that happened to me and like the movie seeks to explore that process but it focuses way too much

on Gracie not nearly enough on Joe and I would also also say not nearly enough on their kids especially like the twins it just is like well but what about that to me that scene where Gracie's putting the makeup on Elizabeth I was like what is this why is this here cut it I don't care about this like I just found it unnecessary to the more core story here which is like what does it look like when someone for whom sex abuse child sex abuse has been so normalized what does it look like when they do start to interrogate that and feel their feelings and try to confront their abuser and like that why isn't that the core of the story and what is the conversation around sex with your children? What is it when your child brings home a partner? Like, what is like, it seems like nothing. Like, and and then the other thing is, if you're taking from that interview, if you're literally ripping from that interview, the thing about Billy is, he actually seems pretty smart. In the real case came from like a broken family and says very specifically in that interview, he says, I wanted my children

to live in a two parent home so that they had that growing up. Like there's a point of view there that's clear and it's quiet and it's strong. But like there's absolutely a point of view if you're paying attention when you watch that interview. And I think to me, this film is a really interesting lesson in who gets attention, who gets to be paid attention to even in a story like this one, because the most interesting thing about this story for me was the story, not the storytelling. movie hoping to get a what we never get in stories about specifically child sex abuse and people recovering from child sex abuse which is a focus on that you're gonna leave disappointed i feel like the way in which i was able to engage with this movie is because these movies almost universally in a way that this movie is not different centers the abuser i think that the one strength of this movie is that i don't think it like leaves you wondering like is she a good person which a stunning number of these movies do

of like not only is the story of Lolita centered on Humbert Humbert, there is ways that a lot of people leave the movie adaptations of that being like, this was a tragedy, ultimately. This was a romantic tragedy. So not only do we have no interest and active demonization done of the victim,

but you have this sort of bizarre underhanded redemption arc for the abuser i think that this movie lays out pretty clear especially like on repeat viewings that like she is delusional she is unapologetically a monster she will never face herself which seems to be the experience of Mary Kay Letourneau who died in 2020 and so in that way I think it is interesting the Natalie Portman character honestly I like the idea of it and I like I feel like there were a few moments where it felt valuable where you see Natalie Portman so actively taking part in the continued exploitation of this story. The continued like her whole job there is to focus on the abuser, which is why I feel like it takes her a while to get even develop an interest in Joe. And when she does develop an interest in joe it's gross she goes to the pet

store and tries to fantasize what it was like for gracie to sexually abuse him in a pet store and it's like framed as like this is such a goofy thing that i'm doing i don't think the movie thinks she's right for doing that and i think it's like really gross to have to watch someone so invested in exploiting this and then at the end exploiting it badly on top of it yeah but it still makes like all the same not even like i mean it just like completely turns its head towards who was abused and then who gets abused by extension where you get moments with georgie but then you sort of get it suggested like well but Georgie was kind of evil and you're like well I I don't know and I agree with the kids where it's like everything you know about the kids is for the most part in relation to her and not him

you know that like he seems to be invested in being a really good father i do feel like going back to your point kieran like if we're comparing joe and the real life analog villi who is of samoan descent that he's actively kind of dumbed down a little bit it seems like he's made to seem more bumbling less smart more easily dismissed by the narrative and she's just like a bulldozer it was and he was wooden he struck me as quite wooden like not anyway whatever it's it's fine yeah the performances are good whatever here in state is like well it's fine it's fine it's whatever we have to move on. But that's literally what this podcast is about.

We don't have to move on. I mean, we can talk about it till the cows come home. I mean, the movie's other agenda is to examine how often something like child sex abuse gets sensationalized and mishandled in media, especially, you know, tabloids and Hollywood movies, which is why that final scene plays out the way it does and why you see Natalie Portman's character's arc pan out the way it does. Because at first she seems, you know, objective about this as far as like, I'm conducting this research, i'm talking to these people i'm trying to understand how they feel why this happened all of that stuff but then you see her start to engage in really gross behavior she manipulates joe into a sexual relationship with her much like his abuser did when he was a child like it's just i think that that's something this movie handles well is like that examination right of the mishandling of other hollywood movies

but as far as the way this movie is structured i feel like natalie portman's character coming in should just sort of be a catalyst that gets joe and their teen kids to be thinking about this and interrogating it and processing something that they've clearly never had a chance to process right it's not even like you need to get rid of the natalie portman character because i mean it's devastating to see seeing Joe once again put through the cycle of abuse and Natalie Portman is sort of like peacocking around like she's a fucking journalist she's not uh and I think people are trusting her as if she is which is a huge miss and I think that that's the mistake that Joe makes is he entrusts her as if she is not just a journalist but an ethical journalist and she's neither she's on a

show called Nora's Arc like she which I do think is really funny every time I hear it but I think all three of us sort of agree that the movie's mission versus what we would have wanted focused on is different but even going with what the screenwriter chose to go and why can't we see people talking behind Nataliealie portman's back she is not god she's not even good at her job i would have loved like especially with the kids and her daughter mary like that maybe it is just like the dressing room scene that is like so devastating and like mary i wanted to see more with all three of them but with her specifically because it seems that of the three she is going through like coming to terms with who her mother is versus who she's

been conditioned to believe her mother is still loving her mother and working through that and going through like the fact that Gracie's character is at different points controlling and critical of all three of her children's bodies it's like drink milk you're not strong enough your arms look fat in that dress and I gave you a scale for graduation like she's I think in a way that is very typical of like white boomer women obsessive about like monitoring their children's weight but mary in particular it seems like she's going through so so much when she's about to leave this house they're clearly worried about what's going to happen to their dad once he's gone why can't we see the kids talk to each other like those are

really really interesting conversations and it makes sense that like the scene with charlie and joe and the roof is really good and it's also clear and just like remembering being a teenager with like a parent who is going through shit or is like emotionally fragile like those conversations with them are totally different than the ones you have with your sibling where you're like, what the fuck is going on? Like they know what's going on. Why don't we get any insight? It feels like this movie will only be as interested as Natalie Portman's character is in anything that's happening. And that seems like a huge missed opportunity.

And if you had her be the lead, it's kind of like the inconsistency. Okay, great. This is the framing device of the movie. We're deciding that this is what we're going with great is she a b-movie actor that's like in a bad thing that isn't good or is she like incredible at delivering this monologue in an oscar-winning performance is she you know genuinely interested like there's like a little bit of tonal like because natalie is a pretty invested actor and that's a phenomenal monologue. She crushes the game on that shit.

So it's like, but then it's bad. Ten minutes later. Yeah. But then it's like, let her be amazing at her job so that she can ask better questions and we can learn more as an audience. Do you know what I mean? Like as opposed to being so surface, I don't know what the solutions are because it's like in order for you to have the conversations with just the siblings or whatever then she's not around do you know what

i mean like there aren't a lot of like third person omniscient it's weird like sometimes it'll show you just the relationship between julianne and charles melton but like but then it weirdly shifts into like third person omniscient like sometimes but it's mostly natalie portman looking at everything through every scene so i don't think it quite decided if that makes sense so that's the only reason I'm saying like okay but from the lensing device like make it omniscient third and she's one of an ensemble of characters and then we can actually see a little bit more like portraiture and it's like you don't even need to lose the focus that like it seems like another big mission of this movie is to like i don't like

in a way that uh the more i'm so glad we're talking about like the more that we talk about it the more it's like it is frustrating that like gracie is really obviously needing to control the narrative around her life and she's like i don't know about this movie, but clearly if she can get Natalie Portman on her side, that is a huge win for her in controlling this narrative. And she wants to be like, we are a normal family. We are happy. Why would you portray us otherwise? But there's a way to even still center how she is being controlling without giving the lens to natalie portman then like even if you give it to julianne moore you still get a lot more insight into what this family is like i mean you do get yeah like karen you're right you do get those moments where you're back

in the house and it does shift to joe in moments but it's like only to an extent and only really to the extent that it serves Gracie or Elizabeth's story not outside of that except I think the only real exception to that is the scene with his son and the scene with his father those are the only two like moments we get to see Joe and then when he's texting his secret girlfriend and I'm like go to her go to her whatever go to your butterfly girlfriend get out of there yeah but we also don't have any sense of how Joe's father or Joe's son feels about this situation except like a tiny little glimpse where Charlie when they're on the roof and he says just something like I can't wait to leave home. Implying this situation's fucked up. And I had thought it was normal because that's all I knew.

But when I sat down and thought about it off screen, maybe it's not great and I want to leave. But we can only sort of speculate at what he's feeling. I also want to know like why if we have the older sister, Honor, who is out and I I think she's more empowered to be like, this fucking sucks now that she's out. She has incredible freshman year in college energy. I really love her, where she's just like, you guys fucking suck.

And she's right, or her mom fucking sucks, and she treats her as such. But it's like, does Honor talk to her half-siblings? Is that something that is? It doesn't seem like that, but we don't know for sure. It seems like in my mind, why wouldn't, once you're out of that house, why wouldn't you want to go talk to your half siblings and sort of have some validation of how fucked it is to have to be in Gracie's life at all, much less be her child. Like there, I don't know, there's a million relationships that you can explore, but it does more focus on like the bubble that is carefully built around Gracie to protect her. And that mission is made clear super early because it's like, Caitlin, what you were saying with the neighbor being like,

be nice to her. We know that the lawyer's wife buys a million pineapple upside down cakes from her to make her feel like she is liked no one is worrying about joe joe is a critical component to preserving gracie's reality and that's i mean i think that that like does reflect real life dynamics that happen but like get more into it it's also like you can show how controlling somebody is by all the people around them who talk about them behind their back it's all those conversations around somebody that you can be like oh this is the way that they're manipulative because then you can watch their behavior but then see how that plays in contrast even down to like that dinner table conversation when the

teenager like stomps upstairs and he doesn't have the milk something it's like if julianne moore was just like teenagers you know teenagers you can't control them do you know what i mean and it's like but really though because you fucked one you know so it's like the the kind of like if you could even just twist the knife a little bit deeper into like having the character have to confront some of what she did because of the presence of Natalie Portman and the questioning that would come up as a result of this person. Because even that Aussie interviewer in that interview does more of it than this film does, in my opinion. You know, he was like, mary you were wrong mary come on you were wrong mary mary come on come on mary right and mary he was a child mary you know what i mean like right and then villi is also sitting right next to her being like i was a child like

it's if you're listening to this episode you haven't seen that interview it's brutal but it is important to and i haven't seen like i find it really frustrating so when i went to the sag screening i was really confused and bothered especially having seen so many movies like this how everyone but also julianne more specifically and i love julianne more but she will not call this character a child sex abuser or an abuser at all. Like, it was really, and at first I was like, maybe this was a weird interview. Like, I don't know. It felt off to me because first of all, the name Mary Kay Letourneau or Vili Folau did not come up in this 45 minute discussion they had, which is already like, I was like, is there like a life rights evasiveness

but then i was like no she's dead like why can we not acknowledge the very very clear source material here that which has been consistent in their press tour but then julian more specifically like this is pulling from a todd fields right todd haynes is the director of May December. Not Todd Tar. Todd Haynes. Autor Todd's. Autor Todd's. Hard to keep him straight. I like his work, but I can't remember.

Sorry. Sorry to Todd Haynes. Okay, this is an interview he did with Sight & Sound where he's describing what my recollection of that Q&A was. So he says, quote, I already mentioned how I was not ready to think about certain aspects of the Mary Kay Letourneau story. But Julianne had a very strong idea that this woman wasn't a pedophile, that she had a princess syndrome, an intense need to be rescued by a young, virile man. It's like the myth of the young knight who with his sheer virility and stunning youth will save you, the damsel in distress. This enabled both parties to deny the age difference because the power could shift back into his sure hands or whatever and i did want those lines in the final bedroom scene who's the boss and who is in charge who is in charge to suggest the myths that they live under this movie was just so full of extremes and exceptions and tabloid excess it's also about people who refuse to look at themselves and the choices they make which we all do and i knew i also was doing unquote so i like wait so todd haynes is saying that julian

moore refused to acknowledge that mary kay letourneau was a sex criminal and a rapist is that what i'm gathering i'm not totally clear i don't and i don't want like that's a huge thing to level against someone yeah it sounds like at least in her process to prepare for this character she was like well gracie doesn't think that she's a pedophile so i as an actor cannot oh like a going method kind of like i have to get into this character's psyche and it sounds like that but it's also like, I have to get into this character's psyche. It sounds like that, but it's also like, I mean, I don't know. And then at this point, I'm reviewing some interviews I watched.

But still, it's just like, it is weird to me that she's not playing the part anymore. Why can't you comment on this part? Like, if you have to put yourself in a fucked up head's place to play a character, to some extent, that's the job job that's how a lot of people do it but you filmed this a year ago why can't you not like acknowledge who you were clearly basing your performance on because there was a lot of talk about the creative choice of the list but that also comes from mary kay letourneau so like acknowledge what like i mean whatever i i just think it's a very confusing choice to not acknowledge, to continue in the press tour, be like, well, I have to honor this character.

You're like, no, you don't. Your character is a sex abuser. They went to jail for it. Especially because that's in direct conflict and contrast to what this movie is trying to say, which is look how hollywood mishandles and how it sensationalizes child sex abuse in movies about that like it was really the only the only person i mean i'm glad so like the screenwriter sammy birch is like yeah i remembered like as i think sammy birch is like in her late 30s and like remembered basically being the age of villi fulao when the story happened like i've talked about that at length but every other major creative player

like will not go there and i just think it's weird i don't get it uh because yeah like you're saying that feels like it plays into the tropes around these movies. Because I feel like with these movies, the content of them, and the way that they're discussed in public is like almost equally important. And I know that Todd Haynes can't control the way his movie is discussed or received, but it's just as significant. That's also kind of what the movie is about. So I just think it is, I just think it's been on my mind for weeks. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk at Why Won't Julianne Morgan be a character.

Your Todd talk? My Todd talk. Todd TED Talk. Why won't Todd make her talk about this? Why won't Todd tell her to talk about it? Do you remember, Jamie, were you able to find the name of that other movie on HBO that some other very good actor played?

Unfortunately, there are so many movies about child sex abuse on HBO. I can't find the one that I'm because I know it came out in 2020 or 2021. I wish I could tell you I might be able to find it for you later. But it's it was really good. I just remember watching that. I love the feeling when I watch something a feeling illuminated. I just love the feeling when I watch something, a feeling illuminated. I just love the feeling of feeling like I understood someone else's experience that's so different than mine. And you take me into the lens of like their experience, even if it's not my experience, like that's kind of, to me,

the magic of the storytelling and the filmmaking. And I just remember that that film that I cannot remember the name of, clearly I'm terrible with names. I don't even remember this coming out. It nominated for an emmy was it okay i don't think i knew a lot of people that watched i mean but it's a really hard movie to watch yeah it was a hard movie to watch for sure the tale the tale the tale yes i totally agree with you karen like it really puts in perspective over the course of a couple of hours just like what a difficult experience

that is to like untangle in your head even well into your adulthood which is what joe is going through and the movie only shows you the very very beginning of him and like leaves him in this interesting place too where he doesn't want to sit next to the family at graduation but he's still so proud of his kids. And you're just like, please just get in the car and never go back. Please. And take your kids with you.

Like get them out of there. Well, they're out. That's the thing. Well, yeah. I'm just reading. This is Wikipedia. The Tale is a 2018 American drama film written and directed by Jennifer Fox,

starring Laura Dern. It tells the story about Fox's own childhood sexual abuse and her coming to terms with it later in life. So I think it was probably because it was her personal story that it was like, oh, wow, that was a film where I kind of watched something and I was like, damn, like I watched someone go on a journey and learn how they saw something and then how they learned what something else was in a way that, I don't know, was just like wildly elegant. It was a hard movie to watch and not a lot of people watched it, you know, and maybe that's part of it. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe it's all of this is also

like a game of marketing and distribution and like who gets eyeballs for whatever reason, etc. You know, but that I do think in contrast to May, December is like an interesting counterpoint, just I think specifically because it centers the victim. It's like, and we both liked it and didn't remember the name because no one talks about it anymore. It's so terrible. The book that I wanted to recommend that sort of deals with the same perspective is called My Dark Vanessa. It came out in 2019, 2020 by Kate Elizabeth Russell, based on experiences from her childhood. But it's basically about, it's told in flashbacks and in the present, where it's about an adult woman coming to terms with the fact that

she was groomed and sexually abused by her teacher, and did not believe that to be true until she's I think the characters in her mid 30s when she starts to deal with it and it's I mean it's it's brutal but it feels like both of those projects are doing what you would want and what I think should be more common and this isn't a problem specific to May december but it does feel like in a movie that is trying to comment on how these stories are told it's gross to say but i do think it is more marketable to center the abuser and the stories that are not centered on the abuser do not tend to get the same promotional push because it it reminded me okay this is like

me being a broken record but it reminded me of doubt go with me here which is a movie that is also about child sex abuse yeah but that there is this mystery about the way that that movie is made of like did he do it that feels completely beside the point of like yes he, he obviously did it. Why can't we center the family more? Why is Viola Davis only in one scene? Why do we barely see the child? All that stuff. And it feels like because of the way that this movie is framed, the movie ends on this weird cliffhanger, like where Julia Moore is just saying shit at this point. And then you're like, oh, what is her deal? And you're like, Oh, what is her deal? And you're like,

I don't think that should be the central question of this movie. Like, I, I don't know. So here's a controversial point. It's like in an industry with notoriously so many high powered groomers and sex abusers. Like,

I mean, cause the thing that's interesting to me about the tale that we both don't remember is it's also centered on an adult. Like it is it's actually I can understand why it would be difficult to watch a child. But it's interesting that it's another like very prominent, like Oscar nominated, brilliant kind of, I think, caliber of like Julianne Moore, Natalie Portman, like kind of actor. It's a great cast. It's beautifully done. Why didn't it get the same push?

Why didn't that get the theatrical? We don't know. We don't know what the story is there. But there's something and again, this is not the conspiracy theorist in me, but it's like, is it a cultural thing where it's like the audience isn't down? Or is it like a gatekeeper thing as to what stories we think are like what somebody in a top position decides to put their push behind good question whether that's conscious or subconscious not even that it's like some conspiracy theory insidious thing but i do think it's hilarious that we live in a a post harvey weinstein world a post les moonves world running cbs for years and then getting out on million dollar deals.

And it's just like people failing upwards after their like grooming and sexual abuse habits, like even in this business to this day, it's like, and then we're surprised that like the stories that get centered in this business are the ones that like center the abuser and the mystery around them. Like, is it that it that surprising right it's the same way that our culture is obsessed with like true crime from a oh the serial killer standpoint like oh the perpetrators of these crimes let's learn all about them and how did they get to where they are blah blah whereas we rarely remember who the victims were and we don't talk about them and we don't remember their names. I don't know. There's just something about our current cultural climate that we are, for some reason, able to more easily stomach learning about and hearing stories about criminals and perpetuators of these horrible

things then i don't even think that is our current cultural climate i just feel like it's just like a stagnant thing yeah it's gone on forever i don't know i mean like what seems abundantly clear is that the stories that are told it's very in line with the stories we see pop off and get really pushed in media the only reason this movie exists is because the mary kay letourneau story was treated in the way that it was to the extent that a writer felt 30 years later the need to comment on it because the coverage affected her so strongly but the coverage did not take an interest in villi and mischaracterized it as an affair which is like what this movie is attempting

to grapple with but it's like you're just like caught in this fucking feedback loop of commenting on how poorly it's talked about and i i hope that like this movie being well regarded i don't feel optimistic about it honestly but that this movie being generally well-reviewed and well thought of will at least indicate that there is an interest in confronting these kinds of stories, hopefully centering the right people, the people who are being victimized and who are surviving on long periods of time having experienced this abuse. I also think that like this, this i mean who knows how you characterize this movie it like it is objectively weird to be like this is a comedy it's not but there are moments of weirdness and moments of levity in it that i thought like again if if there is a movie about a survivor of child sex abuse it doesn't need to be tragedy porn even if

they are going through something really difficult like you can have moments of levity you can have moments of like being a person and experiencing day-to-day shit and weird stuff in your life while grappling with this if the concern is like it's going to be too depressing yeah it's going to be really difficult to talk about but it's like i mean think how many stand-up specials are about a comic's trauma in some way yeah like it's possible to have levity to these stories and center survivors as opposed to the perpetrators of it but i don't know and also the two stories we're talking about the tale and my dark vanessa while like closer to what we're wanting to see in storytelling are centered around young white women and like you don't see stories like the

fictional character of joe or the real life person Vili Fulao, dealt with in anything that gets produced. So the fact that the tale comes out and not many people get to see it is like, it's just, I don't know, it's really discouraging. Yeah. I will say that when you brought up, Caitlin, the like, why is our culture fascinated with the murderers? It's like, because I've never really been that interested in that but when i hear other people talk about it the thing that i've heard them say which i thought was interesting is like it's so far from my life do you know what i mean or like my life is calm i want my life to be calm so there's like a voyeuristic element of like an escapist voyeuristic element of like let me see how like dark and weird other people's like fucked up lives

are because then I go back to my life and it's like my kids and my family and I like feel good or it's like I've heard the same reason that people like reality television I just love the drama because I don't like it in my life so this is like an outlet kind of like the way that sports is an outlet for war you know what I mean like it's like a way to be competitive in like a war sense I mean that's not the way I see it personally, but I think that there's an interesting take of like, the other question is, what do you want from your media?

You know, and how much space do we have in a marketplace? And in this attention economy, like who gets the attention? To that end, I hope you have millions of listeners because otherwise I'm going to be devastated. We have billions wow okay great zuckerberg numbers i love that yeah our patreon is 11 billion people and we don't there aren't even that many people on the planet yeah but we have alien listeners from other solar systems oh

that's so chic yeah pretty cool it's a new pilot program that patreon's doing we've had a lot of luck with it just yeah i mean reaching out to new markets is really the move yeah our reach is far and wide astronomical it's terrifying what i do think is very funny about the movie though is like i can't think of that many movies that have like oh like i kind of watched it was like okay and then as time went on i was like why is this bothering me i think that's the reason i picked it as the one to talk about was i was like it took me a while to figure it out because there's enough skill in the way that it's done yeah because it does have something to say that is valuable yeah it's like i don't think it's a bad movie. It's just like not as subversive as it's presenting itself,

I think. Right. And in a weird way, it's like the insidious nature of the way that like the things that were wrong with it crept up on me. It's like weirdly reflective

of like the insidious nature of the entire story. Do you know what I mean? Like about abuse and all of the other, like that's why i thought maybe it would be like a kind of a rich discussion because everyone has a very specific take and i guess you could argue that that's also good storytelling i mean it also makes you

ponder this movie not being that subversive because of who it centers which is privileged white women like consider if the mary k letourneau or like you know a woman who abused a young boy was a woman of color that story probably would have not gotten nearly the same media coverage that the mary k letourneau case got or it would have been treated tremendously differently. Yeah, because of the way that like white women doing bad things get so sensationalized in media. And then this movie is just kind of like perpetuating that same thing of like, well, yeah, we're focusing on the two white women of this story versus the survivor of the abuse who is a person of color and we're barely going to focus on him so yeah and that's all a function of the fact that this movie was on the blacklist

and natalie portman took an interest in it probably because she played that role in leon the professional right you know back in the day. Which I would love to hear more about. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so she took an interest in it and she's famous enough to take it to her friend, Todd Haynes. And then he's famous enough to know Julianne Moore. And those people are able to get this story made because those people have like, from a financier's perspective, it's enough like clout

that it makes the financial investment of the film worth it. So there's like also these weird mechanisms where it's almost built in. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like if it wasn't a prominent, like how many prominent black actors are there who could do that? How many prominent POC actors are there that have that level of clout?

Institutional support. Yeah. The institutional support yeah the institutional support where the name and the attachment is like okay we're going to take this first time screenwriters movie and get it made kind of thing right you know what i mean like that's i think there's also like a bias or a skew just in terms of that's a vestige of like you said culture begets culture to an extent right yeah right and then like going off that and again i i'm presenting it as a hypothetical because i don't know because the way that this movie has been discussed has

been so bizarre to me like because of the sort of sequence of this script getting handed from person to person to person in the way you're describing was it ever handed to anyone who would have had the foresight to be like, hey, where's Joe for this section? Or just like asking the questions, because Charles Melton is the least famous lead actor, how empowered do you really feel? How included in the conversation do you feel? I don't know. But it doesn't seem like at least, because I know that Todd Haynes worked with Sammy Birch to revise this script before he directed it. But it's like there was clearly no one in the room. If these conversations did happen, I'd be curious what took place because it's like,

I feel like you should be tracking Joe in scene to scene and like finding points in the movie where you're like, okay, if we're not going there with him, why? Like, what is the narrative function of excluding him at this point in the narrative? What is the narrative function of not sharing this? Like, is this, I don't know. And again, it's just like, I think the core frustration is they wanted to tell a story that we don't think is as relevant or interesting. Which is arts like you know it's like i've always heard when you give notes on a movie give notes on the movie you watch

not the movie you would have made right so we have not done that in this uh podcast todd haynes didn't ask us for notes so we get to talk our shit yeah yeah we can talk our shit all we want but that's the kind of, it's like you said, it's not the story they wanted to tell. And I think maybe this is too cynical to say, but also maybe they just didn't care. You know, I think the one thing we don't talk about enough is like a lot of times the people in the room

just don't care. I think they don't care. Yeah. I just don't think they care. It's not that you don't know. It's not that you haven't read the articles. It's that the person in the room has to give a fuck. Oh, shit.

Yeah. And it's a much easier position to pretend you give a fuck or to say that you, it's exactly the duality you're describing with Mary, you know? It's like, it's much easier to pretend to be a person who can who gives a fuck than to truly face yourself and see the hypocrisy of actually no I he just wasn't that important to me and anything that was confronting and pointed out that it was important to me was something I didn't want to listen to and that wasn't given space in that room period like not in a mean way but just in a like you know and in like the cynical Hollywood way it's clear that this movie, once it was cast,

they're like, well, regardless of whether these are the most interesting characters, this is what we're going to give everything to because we got Natalie Portman and Julianne Moore and no one in this movie, even though I think that there are performances. I don't love this Natalie Portman performance, to be honest.

Like there are performances that I think exceed and characters that are more relevant to the story, but they're like, well, we got to keep the famous person on because otherwise Netflix executives, people turn it off if Natalie Portman's not on, who gives a shit if this character is, you know, the story or not. Who knows? I know that those processes are so, but it's like, I cynically, I do believe that that is sort of why characters get focused on that are not as important. And like, Oh, I don't know.

I think the thing about it that like, I think for the longest time I thought, Oh, people just don't know. And then the longer I've spent, I was like, Oh no, they don't care. They don't, they don't want and then the longer I've spent I was like oh no they don't care they don't they don't want to be bothered oh they don't care and to understand that you're like oh okay then this is a whole different thing and maybe that's yeah it's hard it's hard to confront any of our own whatever it is do you know what I mean like I try to remind myself that I'm like you know those iPhones are made with like chips that are kind of like ruining countries.

And I still have an iPhone. I try to remember my own hypocrisy, even if I'm not faced with that hypocrisy and how easy it is to kind of turn away and say, I don't want to deal with this because like I need my iPhone because of X, Y, or Z, even though I know that where that chip is coming from is actively making the world and other people's lives worse. You know what I mean? Like it's like hard to confront all of your own versions of hypocrisy. So like I try to remember that as a human being and like have empathy for that position too, you know? But I haven't been able to like kind of reconcile the understanding of like preaching one thing

public facing and then the like apathy yeah yeah but the action i'm just like just i wish people would just say yeah we didn't care because it's like let me know where you stand it's kind of like the thing where it's like i'd rather just hear yeah i'm racist than have somebody pretend that they care and then like actually there's all this like insidious shit going on behind the scenes. I'm like, at least I can respect your position. You're aware. I respect your take. Like, hey, it sucks.

And I don't agree with you. But like, at least you have this self-awareness to be like, this is who I am, bitch. You know what I mean? Like, and you stand by and with that. But we don't live in that world and i think that's why i've never really been a fan of earth and that's why we have so many intergalactic listeners that patreon like it's so frustrating and like goes back to what your point is is like i feel like there are elements of this movie that are

trying to make that point while doing the same thing where it's like gracie is a character who is aware of what the truth of the situation is but would never admit it and she is made out to be kind of the villain of the story when it's like this movie wouldn't have been produced and that character wouldn't exist if these same systems weren't already in you know we certainly do live in this society don't we does anyone else have any thoughts on this movie they'd like to share i was just gonna say that's why we do comedy because it feels like the only thing left to do is laugh a lot of the times you know i feel like the only thing left to do is laugh and listen the other thing that's great is that you guys do this podcast and you have this space to speak about it like i wouldn't have said it

half the fucking shit i said on this podcast in most places and honestly when we get off this call i'll probably ask you to delete most of it no what you've contributed here today is very valuable and please don't put these opinions out there uh sorry this was all between us uh yeah it's just like a private private conversation we just were curious cool cool cool cool but no i mean it's like this conversation was tremendously helpful for me to yeah just to like tease out like what is working about this what is it and why is that i feel like i hadn't gotten deep enough into the and why is that and for a movie that just came out that's a super valuable discussion for us to have and it's also interesting to see how much movies are like

the one cool thing about a movie that's coming out right now is movies are to an extent a reflection of the moment we're in the cultural moment we're in and so it's like sometimes if you can ask why is that you also start to understand the society around you a little bit better you know the society you live in and why you know the way that maybe some of the choices in that movie were reflective of some of the systems in place you know that would make that be the movie that was told which has its own value and merit and like you know it's also like we all understand that this is a bunch of like well-meaning artists i'm sure for the most part who are like trying to make something good and that's always hard and and you get the money where you can and you fucking run with it

i'm sure all of those people have like 10 things they're trying to get made that can't get made you know when you listen to like martin scorsese's whatever his like stories about like spending 30 years trying to make i don't know that movie with those old people in it you know yeah i mean this You know? Yeah. I mean, this feels like a stepping stone movie where it's like heading in a more right direction, but still missing the mark in some regards. But it'll open the doors to other movies and other stories down the road that do more meaningfully explore the things that are lacking in this movie. So we'll see. I hope that we live in a world where

a big director not just has the interest but also the like institutional support to tell the story of a joe as opposed to intentionally or not this movie like accomplishes further turning Mary Kay Letourneau into this American character that is still with us. And it's like, come on, you guys can't. Yeah. We need a new Todd to make a different movie.

If I don't encourage those. Yeah. We need more Todd's. That's what we need. All right. More Todd's is definitely the conclusion of this podcast and i think we've all decided more tods okay so this is uh future caitlin and jamie popping back in as promised yes we're recording this pickup on wednesday january 10th if there are more updates

unfortunately this is why we don't usually cover movies that just came out. However, we did want to just sort of touch on a few things. First, I guess, having had a week to sit with the discussion we did this episode, I feel like it was a lot of talk about what we would have liked versus what we got. And I've been struggling with it. I've been sitting with this conversation, which I'm so glad we had because it was so challenging. It's so like, I don't know. I guess I just like wanted to add that as much as I think it is like clear that it's not necessarily for the good of all for there to be this bevy of movies that ask you to try to understand the abuser.

I feel like I might have oversimplified how I approach that. I don't think that that is a useless thing to attempt within a film. I don't think it's necessarily the most important thing, but I was thinking about it just from the perspective of how I've heard a lot of survivors of abuse talk about not this movie specifically but movies that tackle these themes where as a culture how do we prevent abuse if we don't understand it

and so I just like wanted to add that as an addition to what we spoke about. I don't think it resolves a lot of the issues that we had with this movie, but I don't think that that is like a completely cynical and terrible thing to attempt. No, and I don't think we explicitly said that. It's more just like, why does the focus always tend to be on the perpetrator and very rarely on anyone else involved so the other thing that we need to talk about is the fact that we obviously discussed the many parallels that the story of may december shares with mary-kate letourneau and billy fallow since we recorded that the golden globes have happened natalie Portman, Charles Melton and Julianne Moore were nominated. So there's a lot of interviews that took place in the week leading up to it. Vili Fulao actually did watch and release a statement about this. So I just

wanted to share what that was quickly. I think it's very pointed. And then also Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman have since reacted to that. So this was originally in an interview done with The Hollywood Reporter. Long story short, no surprise here, he does not like the movie and offers clear reasoning why. He says, quote, I'm still alive and well. If they had reached out to me, we could have worked together on a masterpiece. Instead, they chose to do a ripoff of my original story. I'm offended by the entire project and the lack of respect given to me who lived through a real story and is still living it, unquote. And so I think, I mean, that unfortunately connects to the discussion we were having

about the fact that the more time that passes, I find it incredibly evasive and dishonest that the filmmakers are not acknowledging the parts of this movie i understand that it is not 100 biographical it couldn't be because they didn't reach out to him right but i just think that it's like for a movie that seems to want to make a point about the exploitation of survivors and of the media cycle this press press tour for May, December does not feel challenging of that at all. It's extremely evasive. Every single response that you see is that,

well, it's not based on that. But meanwhile, the climax of the movie features direct polls from Mary Kay Letourneau. Julia and Moore discussed watching documentaries about this case. I find it really frustrating. His quote continues, quote, I love movies, good movies, and I admire ones that capture the essence and complications of real life events. You know, movies that allow you to see or realize something new every time you watch them.

Those kinds of writers and directors, someone who can do that would be perfect to work with because my story is not nearly as simple as this movie portrays, unquote. So here, like, again, I feel like I understand just whatever, having seen biopics, the limitations of writing a biopic, how you're beholden to a lot of things that often produce a frustrating movie. If that is the case, this movie, I don't think like has a case for being transformatively different enough from like change more details is what I'm saying. If you don't want to feel beholden to this real life survivor of abuse who a lot of his biography was completely glazed over, like you can't just change his race and make him less smart and be

like transformative and i was seeing a lot of like back and forth on twitter that generally fell on the side of the movie i just found it frustrating what i found really frustrating was the actor's responses to this i know that i referenced the sag screening that i'd been to yeah brag okay where it was my first sort of encounter with like this press tour feels weird to me that continued so to be fair these actors are being confronted on a red carpet so it's not like they've had time to put their thoughts together about the reaction it appears that both actors did not this is we're talking about julianne moore and natalie portman was not able to find a charles melton reaction which is

what i'm most interested in but whatever right um in any case i do think charles melton was robbed for the golden globe but in any case yeah so it seems like julianne moore and natalie portman are learning this for the first time on the in any case, yeah, so it seems like Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman are learning this for the first time on the red carpet. So take that into consideration with these quotes. Sure. But Julianne Moore says, Oh, I'm very sorry that he feels that way. I mean, Todd was always very clear when we were working on this movie that this was an original story. This was a story about these characters. So that's how we looked at it too. This was our document. We created these characters from the page and together.

Unquote. I just think this is not true. This is demonstrably untrue. I just like, why am I mad at Julianne Moore? That's not something I want for myself, but that's like not accurate. It's just false because there are several interviews that happened much earlier that

I'm pretty sure Julianne was present for. And even if she wasn't, she, I feel like would have been privy to this information where screenwriter Sammy Birch specifically referenced the Mary Kay Letourneau case as being an inspiration. And then like, you know, Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman have both admitted this story was an inspiration, but not meant to be a depiction of these real life people. It's just an inspiration. But it just ends up feeling like in this situation, I'm most inclined to empathize with Sammy Birch, who has been the most forthcoming. It's her first screenplay. But I just find this to be incredibly dishonest because she mentioned having watched a lot of Mary-Kate.

And I do believe that she, did she look at other cultural figures? Sure. I guess it is like, it presents the question of like, I don't think we've ever talked about it in this context, but like what determines commentary that is transformative

yeah for me this doesn't clear the bar it feels like and again we talked about it this movie i liked a lot of what it had to say what it was trying to like the messages it was trying to explore and we've talked about that for two hours at this point right right but like it it doesn't clear okay julianne moore continues to say it was a very challenging part she's somebody who has transgressed in a major way again evasive language and i think in order to justify what she's done she sort of tells a story about her life there's a lot of i don't know it's interesting you know natalie's character comes in and these two women are in a struggle for narrative dominance. Who gets to tell this story? Who's right? Who's wrong? Unquote. Okay, fair point. But I feel like the reaction to Vili Fulao's, it's just doing the thing again. I find it so frustrating. Natalie Portman reacted like this, quote, I'm so sorry to hear that.

It's not based on them. It's,'s you know obviously their story influenced the culture that we all grew up in and influenced the idea but it's fictional characters that are really brought to life by julianne moore and charles melton so beautifully and yeah it's its own story it's not meant to be a biopic unquote i find i don't know the more i sit with this i know that everyone i mean i can see because there's like critics and friends that I respect and take their opinion in stride. But I just like, it feels like this press tour is getting away with something that I, it just really doesn't sit well with me. And getting away with something that the movie seems to be critical of, which is how the media handles these types of cases. Yeah, I think both of these sort of stories, the Vili Fulao reaction and then the subsequent reaction, I haven't seen a lot of coverage about it.

I've seen repeated and justified praises of Charles Melton's performance. I've seen a lot like there are a few May, December press narratives that have really endured, you know, in the months since it's come out, it feels yucky to me. And that's future Jamie and Caitlin. Yes. And now we dismount and return to the past.

All right. dismount and return to the past all right this movie does pass the backfill test it does it simply does yeah and that's not necessarily super relevant to the conversation that we've had but true we always say at the end of the episode whether it does and it does and i think that's all i really have to say about it i agree let's move on though to our nipple scale yes our scale of zero to five nipples where we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional feminist lens and i do appreciate the things that this movie is attempting to say about the topic of child sex abuse and how it's difficult for people to interrogate, especially if it has been very normalized for you, which for a lot of people it has because of this rape culture we live in and because of the unchallenged sexualization of underage people that exist to this day and has existed for all of time. It has been normalized, unfortunately.

And the movie's commenting on that. It is commenting on, as a byproduct of that, how media and Hollywood sensationalize stories where child sex abuse has happened. And yet it doesn't, you know, hit the mark all the way because it's still, I think, you know, we all agree here that it focuses on the wrong people. We would have liked to see more about Joe's point of view, the kids' point of view, how they are processing this, how they're dealing with this, all of that stuff. So because of that, I think I'm only going to give it, I'll give it three nipples for what it's trying to do, but also what it's failing to do. And I will give them two. I'll give one to Charles Melton. I will give one to real life person,

Vili Vulao. And I will give my third nipple to all the tods of the world. All our alien listeners. I'll give it to all the hot dogs at the beginning by Raw Dog by Jamie Loftus. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I'm going to go right down the middle here. I'm going to go two and a half nipples i think unfortunately it is still

a big deal in any major release movie to acknowledge that an adult woman can sexually abuse a boy i hate that that is the case but that you know up until very recently was not like the way that you describe kids at your school talking about it is clear evidence of that, like that that is a fairly recent cultural shift that I think that it is like net positive to have a successful movie that unequivocally acknowledges this was abuse. Yeah, having seen a lot of movies about this subject, I think this movie is definitely like better than most, but still commits a lot of the same exact problems that we see in movies that really mishandle the subject of child sex abuse. As with a lot of movies, like right when

we talk about them after they come out, I feel like we did a good job this time. But sometimes it's just like when a movie just came out and you don't hate it i feel like you generally give it credit for being more progressive or subversive than it actually ends up being when you reflect on it down the line we have done this in the past it's true the things we said about captain marvel i swear to god and Wonder Woman like oh we were we were so young the point is never again no I think that like I am not unhappy that this movie exists I find it really frustrating it's doing certain things well and then it's ignoring a lot of subjects that you would think if it really were like a subversive work, it would have more interest in. And also no one movie can, you know, tackle an issue as complicated as child sex abuse. And I feel like sometimes it's easy to be like, well,

why didn't it do everything? It's one movie. Hopefully, like you're saying, Caitlin, this is a step towards being able to tell a story that it seems like all three of us were more interested in and you know i just think like in all movies right now i'm like i just am like not really particularly interested right now in like narrative movies of like understanding a very evil person and there's so many like that right now and i think that sometimes they're like but it's a girl boss so you're like i don't it's still not working for me but anyways i like todd haynes i love carol and i'm giving this two and a half and i'm giving it all to the hot dogs nice yeah karen how about you i'd like to actually rate this on a scale of hot dogs as opposed to nipples if that's cool fine yeah as is you're right yeah and i'd like to give it i mean i see this movie as beginning and ending for me when i looked at that grill and i saw those hot dogs on the grill

and i think that jamie really said this best there's not enough people to eat all these hot dogs it makes you think were they going to sell them eat all these hot dogs it makes you think were they going to sell them to costco afterwards yeah it makes you think and i think the enigma of that moment you know is a metaphor for the enigma of everything we've spoken about today so you may not give this movie a lot of nipples but i will give this movie 40 hot dogs amazing out of how many is the max number i'm not sure okay okay that's fair i'm just happy to be with you on this journey you're like what is the maximum number of hot dogs it's difficult to say yeah that's so true that's so true i wow i feel like we'd have to go back and re-watch the movie and i don't think

that's something any of us are gonna do not not i yeah well it's been a delight to have you thank you so much for coming on for this truly like challenging episode i mean like it feels weird to be like i had a great time but i thought this was a great discussion thank you for uh we just covered shrek 4 so we're pretty burnt you know like the discourse has just been all over the place this month on the pod yeah the donkey man love him exactly exactly where can people check out your stuff follow you online etc i'm on the internet at shitfromkiren, shit like the poop that comes out of your butthole or gets delivered to you in the mail

if you are a character in May, December. Just shitfromkiren on all the platforms on the internet, forgive me internet and dear listeners and intergalactic listeners, I did come up with that a long time ago and it was foolish of me and it's too late to change it yeah sorry about that yeah it was it's i did it to myself i was like no this is flippant but that was dumb that was dumb and i have regrets and here we are and be sure everyone to watch destroy all

neighbors starring kieran no it's not starring me it's starring jonah jonah ray you're old you're and alex winter from oh bill and ted right yeah yeah very nice gentleman and it's a little horror comedy and it'll come out on january 12th and you guys will have to review that movie not with me and see if that passes the bechdel test we will it's on the top of our list i won't be listening to that episode uh just so you know and i don't want to know how many nipples or hot dogs it gets because of my deep sensitive no whatever it's a fun horror comedy hell yeah nice well thanks again for coming on the show you can check us out at bechtel cast on instagram and twitter slash x blah as well as our patreon at patreon.com

slash bechtel cast become a matron yes and you'll get access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog. Also check out our link tree for tickets to our upcoming tour in early February. We're going to cities in California and Texas. Why? Cause we felt like it. That's just sort of how it ended up.

Yeah. And then you can also get our merch at tpublic.com slash vbechtel cast and with that let's have a hot dog is that the song i kind of forget i bye bye bye bye the bechtelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky.

Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption. They were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself?

There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso

as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.