The Bechdel Cast - My Big Fat Greek Wedding with George Civeris

Episode Date: January 24, 2019

Caitlin and Jamie invite special guest George Civeris to officiate their (My Big Fat Greek) Wedding (episode).(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @georgeciveris Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name's Jamie. And my name's Caitlin. And this- Durante, sorry, I just threw in my last name. Oh. Should we start over? I don't appreciate a power move at the tippity top.

You know, I've had a long day. I know. I realized today that I cucked myself real bad today. I fully admit I look like shit. I've been sitting in a room that, listen, I know. I was sitting in a room full of old men. It smelled like Panera Bread all day. And I realized I was wearing my own merch out in the world again

which is truly sinful and tacky and gross and i don't i don't care who says it's not it is well i think you're brave for doing it what i meant to say was loftus is my last name this is our podcast this is our podcast uh we use the bechdel test which is a test that was created by cartoonist allison bechdel in the comic dykes to watch out for and it's uh we're getting into the history i know i just had to really like really give a history lesson um it's a media test it's media test that requires that a movie usually is what it's applied to has two female identifying characters with names who speak to each other about something other than a man and our version our bar is only that it is at least

a two-line exchange yes did you see the m? This is not an example of something that would pass the Bechdel test, but I just had a quick question. Oh, please. Did you see the MRA who was tweeting at us today? But he was like, it was, I thought he was actually kind of funny because it was incoherent. Did you see he was like, I couldn't understand a word that happened in this audio file more male voices are needed and then he sent us a link to like women of america demand larger mirrors like i don't know what that link he sent was don't know he also made fun of us for saying like too much yeah which is a fun criticism that uh i i adore right i love it it's just, I don't know. What the fuck do you want from me?

I don't. I almost. I want a larger mirror. That's what all women want. You know that movie, What Women Want? It's just about larger mirrors. I'll give them a second series of large mirrors. Oh, God.

All right. So we talk about the portrayal and representation of women in cinema. Yes. Yeah, we use the Bechdel test to initiate a larger conversation about that. Too true. Today, we have, this is a special time in Bechdel cast history, because if you perhaps were aware or may have noticed, we have an embargo on male guests. Until. Until.

Until we lifted it just for this very special. or may have noticed, we have an embargo on mail guests. Until. Until we lifted it just for this very special. After much consideration. There were meetings. There were phone calls. There was outrage. It was. I was going to say, this is our Brexit. I don't know why.

It's not a good. But anyways. But rest assured. We've lifted it. We've lifted it today've lifted it today back down put it back down but we are very excited for today's guest and for today's movie yes so help us in welcoming um he's straightened up he's straightened up uh he's a comedian he's been featured in the just for last festival he's visiting from New York City. Ever heard of it? It's George Savaris.

Hi. Hi. Did I say that right? Is it Savaris? Savaris. Savaris. Yeah. The only good man.

Welcome. Your words. I mean. After you repeated them. Well, I repeat what men say to me, and that's how I learn. How else would I know anything? Welcome. Yeah, as we learn from the movie,

there was one line where he's like, this is why women shouldn't learn. It was literally, this is why women shouldn't get an education. After 30 years, he let her take one computer class, which I, whatever, we can get into it. Yeah, we'll get into it. It's like, what did she learn at that computer class?

Do you mean the computers and tourism seminar? Yes. Does that mean that she's a hacker? If she knows computers. I'm pretty sure she was just calling American Airlines. It's actually a prequel to Hackers starring Angelina Jolie. Oh. They recast the main role.

A favorite. Oh, God. Let's check out our bonus Matreon episode on Hackers. This movie, while it does have Joey Fatone, which I forgot and I squealed. So did I. I was watching it at work. Yeah. So we're talking about My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

So, George, tell us your history, your relationship with this movie. Okay. Well, just like very quick background on my ethnic identity. Sure. Well, just like very quick background on my ethnic identity. My parents are fully Greek and they grew up in Greece and then they moved here for grad school. Then I was born specifically to get American citizenship and then I was like shipped back to Greece. And then throughout my life, I moved back and forth between Greece and America.

So I was in Greece in my early childhood. Then I lived in New Jersey from like second grade to eighth grade. And then I moved back to Greece for high school. So and this movie came out when I was living in New Jersey. So it was like at the point where I was very much like a Greek American and like had not gotten like back in touch with my Greek heritage after moving back for high school. So it was very like relatable to me. So I guess it came out when I was in i was like 12 yeah 2002 and then i watched it enough times where i'm not exaggerating i could recite the movie every single word of it

from beginning to end hell yeah with my best friend at the time in middle school who then turned out what happened then turned out to also be gay. No, no, we're still friends. Oh, you're like at the time. The two things we really liked were my Big Fat Greek Wedding and making the band, too. And then the other thing was that at the time, a lot of our family friends were Indian, and that was the year that Bend It Like Beckham came out. So I remember distinctly, like, having a double feature that was, like, Big Fat Greek Wedding and Bend It Like Beckham.

And then our parents just being like, you know, at the end of the day, the immigrant experience is, like, so universal. And everyone was like, we agree. That's beautiful. It was very beautiful, yeah. I was thinking about Bend It Like Beckham at a few different points. I mean, just because of, just because it revolves around a wedding. It's a good double feature.

Yeah. Solid double feature. Indeed. Jamie, what's your history with My Big Fat Greek Wedding? Love it. Love it. First grown-up movie I was allowed to see in theaters. I don't remember what my mom said that we were going to see,

but I was like, oh, whatever. I'm nine. I'm grown up, and this is stupid. And then we got to the movie theater. She was like, twist. We're seeing a kissing movie. And she brought me to see My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and I loved it so much. And I used to be able to recite it where it was like I hadn't seen this movie in at least five years but there were still like scenes that like triggered my brain of like oh I know

exactly what's happening word by word even though I still know it as a nine or ten year old would yeah I loved it I used to my favorite use of this movie like when I was like young and then like going into early teenager was whenever I watched a scary movie, because I was really not good with them when I was young, I'd be like, well, I'll watch a scary movie, but we have to watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding afterwards because I could never be afraid after watching that movie. You've got to cleanse the palate.

It makes me feel very safe. That's a beautiful story. A lot of beautiful stories around this. And then comes mine. Oh, no. No, it's not. But a sure way to get me to have no interest in a movie is to put either wedding or bride or princess or something along those lines in the title. I did see this movie.

I don't think I saw it in the theater, but I saw it within, I think, a year of it coming out. But it was only that one time, and I didn't rewatch it again until, like, yesterday. The one thing I remembered from it was the Windex. Yes. Because my mom had the same thing. She didn't, like, spray your injuries with Windex, but the only cleaning product that she would use on anything ever all the time, whether it was, like, a glass surface, which is what it's supposed to be for if it was wood if it was tile if it was carpet any like brick works for most things she would use windex so that was my main connection to the movie but yeah i remember thinking oh this is cool and i remember at the time there was all this kind of publicity news around it about it being this indie film that made so much money at the box

office budget five million box office 368 million i think it's the highest grossing romantic comedy of all time or at least it was it had been yeah i don't know if i was trying to read up about it i i'm still not clear if anything has beat it since then. But yeah, it was a huge box office hit. And everyone's like, hey, you can make an indie movie and it'll be a great hit. And I was like, I can't wait to apply this to my film career in a few years. Anyway, so I didn't have any sort of attachment to it growing up. So there's my history. I forgot.

I also saw this movie the year before I made my first friend who had Greek parents. And she was like, she loved this movie. And she was just thrilled to have like a benchmark of like, you know, like my big fat Greek wedding. I was like, oh, because otherwise I wouldn't have. I just knew about Irish people screaming at each other. Yeah, it was. There were so many things that like then, then I would get asked, like, the spitting, for example. Like, do people really spit on each other? Or, like.

Do they, though? It's, like, it's, the answer is that it's, like, a symbolic, no one is actually spitting saliva. It's just, like, you make the sound of, like, tuh-tuh-tuh. Like, and then it's, like, a symbolic thing. Got it. Wait, I want to say one more thing, which is that the first time I saw this movie was when we were visiting my family in Greece for the summer and I saw it in an outdoor movie theater in Greece, like during the summer.

Whoa. So it was like, but what was funny about it was that because like the audience was, I mean, it's kind of like how crazy rich Asians bombed in China. Like Greek people don't relate to like the Greek American story. Like it's not. So people were like very lukewarm about it around me when I saw it in the movie theater. And then people were also kind of like, this is offensive. I was like, okay.

Okay. It is my favorite movie. Did you have like relatives or people you knew that that found it offensive towards Greek people? I mean, the thing is like, OK, even like my family is not really like the family that's portrayed in the movie. And it's mostly because like we had this weird childhood where we kind of moved back and forth and actually like maintained a lot of contact with Greece, the country. And we like spoke Greek at home and I think that also made us less prone to like kind of bring Greece with us to America because we were like we we have a connection to it like we go there like twice a year so we were we never had like you know Greek statues like in our home

or like we we didn't like your garage door wasn't the Greek right exactly or like or like for instance they go to Greek school in the movie, but like we spoke Greek at home. And so that was never like the thing that we did. But at the same time, I was in spaces like when we would go to church and stuff where I would absolutely recognize like the types of people that were portrayed in the movie. So I would say I related to it on a more superficial level than maybe someone else who was like a second generation Greek American that was like, you know, born and raised in Chicago or New York or something um but I still very much recognize all the characters and I I think what Greek people maybe responded poorly to was just that like it was kind of exaggerating all the most funny parts of Greek culture and I do think that like if Greek people faced more discrimination then yes I could be convinced that it's like problematic.

But I feel like ultimately they don't. So like it's okay for me to laugh at these things because it's not like they're perpetuating some like extremely harmful stereotype that's like affecting Greek people in like the world. That's what's tricky with this was like I just truly I wasn't familiar with any Greek stereotypes. And this was my first encounter with anything Greek. And then after this movie came out, we went to the Greek festival in Brockton, Massachusetts every single year because we were like, I loved that movie.

Let's go. Let's get great. I don't know. We would just do it afterwards. But it was like, unlike a lot of movies that turn up stereotypes I wasn't even familiar with the stereotypes it was like tricky even watching this I was like I don't I don't know I'm assuming it's probably a little offensive and over the top but like I don't know I feel like what is kind of stereotypically known about Jewish families and Italian families also sort of applies to Greek

families and that there's a lot of focus on food and like family gatherings and stuff like that that's yeah I think about this a lot because so many people obviously that's like such a common comparison of like Jewish families Italian families Greek families but then there's also like more broadly speaking like immigrant families, like sometimes, you know, whatever. And then there's like, you know, I mean, I was mentioning before like Indian families, there's, you can make comparisons there. And I feel like ultimately what the separation actually is, is between literally WASPs and everyone else.

Like I actually think that there's more of a difference between WASPs and non-WASPs than there is between like, and I'm not saying this in terms of like systemic discrimination. I'm saying this in terms of just like family culture. I genuinely think there's like more of a difference there than between like a Greek family and an Italian family and a Jewish family and so on and so on. Right. That tracks for me. Yeah. And I mean, wasps in this movie do not come off too well.

Oh, they're Ian's parents? Nor should they. But it was like, there was that scene where Ian's mom is like screaming in someone's face, like, it's a bunt cake. I was like, what is wrong with you? That whole scene, to me, was very weird, because it's like, you have that overreaction,

and then you cut to the aunt, and she's like, I consumed my twin in the womb. You're like, why is this coming up? That used to be my favorite part, but I was like, this is fucking tonally very strange. Yeah. Oh, love this movie. Well, shall I do the recap?

Yeah, let's do it. So we meet Tula. My dad used to be in love with a woman named Tula. My mom's name is not Tula. Wild. So Tulaula played by Nia, is it Vardalos? Yeah. Who also wrote the movie. We get to know her a little bit as a young child growing up as like a second generation Greek woman in a suburb of Chicago, has a huge Greek family. And they put a lot of pressure on her to get married to specifically

a greek man as soon as possible she works in the family restaurant and um you know she's not really happy with her life she feels kind of stuck she's and it's like the whole thing is like she's 30 yeah she's well she's on her deathbed like she's way past her expiration date. She's wearing a big sweater. It's just like, oh, no. Yeah, she's wearing glasses, which is code for you just cannot fuck. I forgot how over the top Tula 1.0 was. Oh, absolutely. I was like, oh, my God.

She is just head to toe. All neutrals. Wild. So she works at the family restaurant and one day a guy comes in. Oh, also Joey Fatone's her relative. Joey Fatone is her cousin. We meet her mom and her dad, her sister brother,

a couple of her cousins, a couple of her aunts and uncles. Really quick, is Joey Fatone Greek? He's Italian. Because he's doing an Italian accent. I mean, a lot of her cousins, a couple of her aunts and uncles. Really quick, is Joey Fatone Greek? He's Italian. Because he's doing an Italian accent. I mean, a lot of people in the cast are Italian. I was just like, hold on, Joey Fatone. As thrilled as I am to see him anywhere,

he's doing a pasta meatball accent. What is he doing? Anyways. Yeah, so we meet different members of her family. You know, she's just like, ugh, everyone wants me to get married. And then this guy comes into the restaurant one day. Is he hot? He is handsome.

He's not for me. Ish. I don't know. I mean, I'm not. Whatever. I mean, he's Aiden. Exactly. Oh, is that a Sex and the City thing?

I was never an Aiden gal. I just, I don't know. Couldn't do it. Anyway, so he's Aiden. Exactly. I was never an Aiden gal. I don't know. Couldn't do it. Anyway, so he's fine. But his hair is too long in this movie. That's my problem. That's the exact issue. Well, the important thing is she finds him attractive.

Correct. She does. Tula does. Now she has glasses. What's she going to do? And she sees him and she's just like smitten. She's hiding behind stuff. She loves glasses. What's she going to do? And she sees him and she's just like smitten. She's hiding behind stuff. She hides behind a little classic Tula.

Whether she's hot or not, she's hiding behind large objects. So then she starts to get her life together. And she enrolls in computer classes at a local college because she wants to help the restaurant run more efficiently. She gives herself a little makeover. And then she starts working at her aunt's travel agency. Yes. After that scene where she advocates for herself, says, hi, I can turn on the computer.

I would like to work here. And her aunt says okay and then the aunt the mom and tula have to all convince the dad it was his idea they have to incept him yes yes which is was fun to watch and that's how christopher nolan got the idea for inception he wants that scene yes um so then a short time later she crosses paths with this guy again who she thought was so handsome. And his name is Ian. And he asks her out on a date. He also gets punched by an old lady.

He gets the shit beat out of him. Funny. Because he was goofing around. I see that scene. I'm laughing. Sorry. And then Tula and Ian start dating. And for the first time in a long time she's happy

but her family doesn't know about this relationship and he's not great because he's not greek and uh when her mom and dad find out that she has been dating this non-greek man they throw a fit and they want her to stop seeing him but they're all like no we're in love we're not gonna stop seeing each other and then and then you see him at the school and then i was like okay he is handsome for some reason once i saw him teaching well he was wearing glasses was that maybe that's what it was even though we've already been told that glasses equals not fuckable. But that rule doesn't apply to men. Right.

Forgot. Meanwhile, her family is trying to set her up with a Greek man. And all of those candidates are not appealing to Tula. Then she meets Ian's parents. And they are very bland and very waspy and pretty racist. And then Ian asks her to marry him. And she's like, yes, please sign me up. And Tula's dad is distraught by this because he's like, I thought she would get married in a Greek Orthodox church.

And she can't do that if she marries a non-Greek. So then he converts, basically, like gets baptized. They get him to the Greek. How long were you waiting to make that joke? I thought of that joke at 10 a.m. It's like when his family

is in the church and like, it's all Greek to me. And then the mom's like, oh my God, stop it, Rodney. Rodney. You're crazy.

You're wild for this one, Rodney. So he's getting his head dunked in an inflatable kiddie pool. And very fun. Seeing him laughing. And then the family starts to accept Ian for who he is. They like his hair. They like his hair. They celebrate Easter with him.

They play some language barrier goofs on him. And they start planning the wedding. There's some scenes with some invitations and some bridesmaids gowns. The brother also starts going to night school. Because he wants to be an artist. We love that. Yeah. And Tula inspired him.

Then they invite Ian's parents over so the families can meet each other. And that's the whole like Bundt cake scene. Eventually it's the day of the wedding. And it's wild. I mean, the wedding kind of just happens. Yeah. The wedding happens. Not much goes wrong at the wedding.

No. Kind of just get to watch a nice wedding at the end. Yeah. And then they're at the reception. And there's dancing. And everyone's having a good time and then we flash forward she gets pregnant right away right away well also her parents get her a gift oh right they buy her a house but the twist is it's right next door also dad accepts Ian. Uh-huh. Sure. Sure.

And it's one big happy family. And then she's like, hey, daughter, who's six years old, you can marry anyone you want. The end. As long as you get married. Yep. And she has to go to Greek school. So they are keeping the traditional life. Yes, indeed.

So that is the movie. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll come right back. Okay. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the

plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Santer. The only difference between the person who doesn't

get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, you get your podcasts. comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

And on camera, yeah karaoke What's your song? Oh I love a ballad I felt Bjork's music I just was like who is this person I gotta hawk this slalom I'm not hawk this slalom I absolutely love it

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it It was somehow gorgeous Yee you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my flock, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, what a time we've had. We were dunking each other. We were dunking each other. We were baptizing each other.

My big thing with this movie is that the movie feels like it's being set up where Tula seems like she's being somewhat critical of her culture where it's like oh all these expectations are being foisted upon me that are fairly archaic and sexist where it's like oh you as a woman there's three things that are expected of you marry a man have babies and then make food for all of those people and it feels like okay this is gonna be because I didn't really remember what the story was about, although wedding is in the title. So I did sort of remember that there was a wedding, but I like couldn't totally remember how much she like challenged the status quo kind of thing. And it sets it up in the beginning where it's, she seems like she's being critical of these standards and, you know, she doesn't feel that it's fair that all these family members are expecting her to get married and all this stuff but then she meets a guy and the whole

rest of the movie is focused on her relationship to this man and her ultimately fulfilling these expectations that were foisted upon her right so that i feel like so how do we feel i i don't there this movie okay i remembered lots of scenes by heart i didn't remember the exact arc of the movie like as it pertains to how we're watching it this time i don't know i mean there was a good five minutes in this movie where I'm like, this is good. This is, we're going in the right direction. Where there, I thought that there was,

sorry for making a horrible noise with my mouth just then. I thought that the makeover scene was gonna bug me more than it did. The reason it did not bother me that much, even though, you know, it is whatever we can dig into, like, oh, the more conventionally attractive you appear, the happier you must be. Sure.

But at least I didn't remember that the makeover was motivated by her and her wanting to do something for herself, which i appreciated and it was like a part of a package deal of stuff she did not to impress a guy even though we see that they met before but from what my understanding of it is she does it because she wants to and she's like i want to learn how to turn on a computer right Right. And her dad's like, this is, the women have gone too far. They're turning on computers now. Is drugs downtown?

Yeah. My favorite line. Is drugs downtown? And then she, I mean, she does take her glasses off. We have what I think is an egregiously long scene

trying to get a contact. She's like, literally, how do contacts work? I need to take a computers and contacts seminar. We see her at the seminar. And so at very least, it's not a Princess Diaries thing. It's not a she's all that thing.

It's, you know, she does, Tula does a glow up that spans across all areas of her life that's motivated for her to make her feel more comfortable at where she's at. So that I appreciate. I had the same read on it, although part of me was like, oh, this all happens after she sees this guy for the first time. So it made me wonder, like, was that the catalyst that gets her to be like, I've got to get my life together so that he might be interested in me if i ever see him again but the movie doesn't necessarily do anything specific to suggest that's what's happening maybe that's just that was the chronological order of the events of the story but i couldn't help but think okay it's not until she sees him that she starts to like whip her life into shape kind of thing. But I did agree that like the makeover, it seems to be more that she gives herself a makeover because she just wants to look different or, you know, to give her look a little boost to make herself more confident.

It's a self-esteem thing. Right. Because usually makeovers in movies like this, like the ones you you mentioned it's something that's thrust upon a woman by other people and it's usually so that she can be they're usually like you need to look better usually to be more attractive to men and it's also not so extreme of a makeover that you're like, whoa. Like, she definitely looks different, but it's not like Anne Hathaway whipping around and it looks like a different person. Right. And she doesn't act that differently after it happens. I don't know.

This was like one of the movies that we've talked about that there's a makeover sort of that didn't super bother me. Same. George, what's it? I feel like there's it's there's almost like a narrative of like a delayed or a prolonged adolescence kind of and like her makeover is is almost like just the experience that anyone would go through when they're like going to college kind of like it's like she's been stuck in this almost like prolonged i don't want to say prolonged

high school experience it's very condescending but but like she's been kind of like in the orbit of her family and no one else she still lives at home still lives at home you know she still works with her family whatever and you know she has kind of put off like trying anything outside of comfort zone so i think it i mean the physical makeover is just kind of like the easiest way to denote the fact that she is like taking risks and like putting herself out there. And I don't know. There's kind of like a really interesting tug of war in the movie where she's kind of figuring out how much of her past and her culture she wants to hang on to and how much of it she's like, OK, you know, straying from. Right. And I think it toes that line pretty well i mean there's like this scene for

example where she's like finally eating like a bland sandwich with the blonde girls yeah right but then it's so she's like trying that out but then it's like at the end she still decides she wants to be a part of the you know greek community so it's which i think is like there's no correct way to portray that journey right um and i think she does a very good job, in my opinion. And the fact that her little, like, makeover confidence boost that she's giving herself coincides with the fact that she's also furthering her education and, like, wanting to learn a new skill. And changing her job. Yeah. Yeah, she's, like, changing her life.

That's why it wasn't, like, take off the glasses, you're a new person. Yeah. This was, like, oh, she's, like wasn't like take off the glasses. You're a new person. Yeah. This was like, oh, she's like just doing some work on herself. I admire that. Also just in terms of like the representation of the women in the film, like that entire part of the movie where it's basically like the three women, like her, her mom and her aunt kind of like devising this plan I thought was like really well done I want to talk about that scene because we mentioned this in the recap but the whole thing is that Tula wants to work at her aunt's travel agency but she knows that her dad being like the patriarch and the head of the household won't go for it unless he thinks he's come up with the idea so the three of them get together

like okay we need to incept him first of all it's really funny the way that like the aunt especially is acting she's like so rehearsed and like a robot she like does not know how to improvise she needs to take a UCB class or something but uh so that that seems really funny and then we as the audience we're let in on the the secret where the dad kind of looks like an idiot because he's like yes that's my idea and you needed a man all along for me to figure out this really smart thing that i came up with and then we are like t he he's actually an idiot because they already came up with this idea um that i enjoyed that too and that came after i believe you see Tula's mom and dad, they have several scenes together. And in most of them, Tula's mom ends up taking the dad down to, I don't know, what phrase am I searching for?

Take some down a notch? Take some down a notch. I'm sorry. Hi, I'm a fucking idiot. Women shouldn't be educated. Right. But their first scene when Tula, a 30-year-old woman, wants to take a computer class and her dad's like, she'll die if she leaves the house. Yeah.

And, you know, makes the comment about this is why women should get an education. This is out of control. And the mom immediately snaps at him and says, what? You don't think that I'm as smart as you? I run the restaurant for you. I raised kids for you. I ran the house for you. And I teach Sunday school.

Right. I was like, oh, the mic drop on the Sunday school. Lucky I have you to tie my shoes. Yes. Oh, so good. And then later she and Tula have that scene where, what's the line the mom says? Where she's like, oh, well, sure, the man's the head of the house. But the woman is the neck. The woman is the neck.

And she can turn the head any way she wants. And we see her do that a bunch of times. Which I do enjoy. But then also part of me, especially with the scene where they're incepting the dad, I came away from that sort of frustrated in addition to, I don't know, I had conflicting feelings about it because I was like, well, he thinks he's smart, but actually, you know, they've tricked him. But I was frustrated because they're sort of like encouraging and still upholding this status quo of allowing him to think he has control over everything. And there's a part of me that like wants a scene like that to play out where Tula just marches up

to her dad and she's like yeah hey I'm gonna like work at this travel agency because that's what I want to do because I know computers I can do whatever the fuck I want right that's not the dynamic of their family but also I don't know like I feel like more could have been done by her to like challenge these norms but I don't I feel like they do a really good job of showing how kind of like regressive views can coexist with people being empowered within those structures kind of and I mean as much as it is very much kind of like a formulaic romantic comedy in its plot i think they avoid a lot of kind of like empowerment cliches while also like effectively telling an empowering narrative i mean to some extent we can discuss like what the details are but like i feel like she's like with every conflict

that happens she slowly becomes more empowered in her own in like advocating for herself yeah so that at the end it's like when he for instance asks her to marry him she doesn't hesitate she's like i will do this no matter if my family likes it or not yeah i don't know that scene did work for me and and obviously like i would have loved for tula to to go to her dad and say this is what i want to do but in terms of you of portraying how this specific family works, I found that scene helpful because we had already sort of gotten that indication about the comment about the head and the neck from the mom. And then we got to see it in action of like, oh, the women are in charge,

but because of how the men in this family were raised and how they behave, they need to feel like they're in charge. How can you get something done and thrive and exist within that structure? So it's not challenging the structure, but it was helpful for me to see how that worked. Also, the idea of someone like making that kind of speech to their dad and then like storming out is kind of like a very American idea. And it's a very like kind of Hollywood. And I think it's actually more tricky and more interesting to watch people like navigate those waters without, you know, like fully alienating their family.

Right. Because like the structure of the family in Greek culture is much stronger than like individual, you know, will or ambition often. Sure. And I mean, you know know we can debate the merits of that but but i but i think it like it shows the specificity of those family dynamics is there for a reason and i they i'm sure that like she thought of doing a scene like that but like didn't specifically to show like how the family is anyway right yeah i mean i'm frustrated like because i see a scene like that and i'm like just why can't you just say what you want and then like tell your family to fuck off but that's just because i come from a family where i'm like if i don't like you

fuck off and see you never again but i understand that that doesn't work for every person i will say i mean something that i found to be something that i had mixed feelings about was like the families and the father specifically views on education. Cause I actually think, you know, in my experience, Greek people do value education and it's a little difficult for me to imagine, you know, a father trying to prevent his daughter from going to college. I feel like that was maybe exaggerated a little bit to, to make the conflict more intense. Although, although I I can think of counter examples of people I know. But that was the only thing where I was like, of all the kind of like exaggerated stereotypes,

that was the one thing that like slightly bothered me because I was like, oh, I don't want people to think Greek people are like, like don't want women to be educated. Right. He's like, that's a bold statement. He's pretty overboard on his sexism where yeah he's like he's like it's a mistake to educate women and then in a separate scene he says oh she's smart enough she doesn't need to go to more school and it's like i do think it's played for humor in a way that works in the context of the movie and i also think that like as much as you know you want

to see like the person who's prejudiced be defeated, every family has people who you know are going to say things like that. And everyone kind of agrees that you're going to roll your eyes and, like, you know, ultimately they're harmless. Right. And, you know, yes, it's not a perfect world, but, like, that just is the case. And, like, when you're depicting a family, there are going to be people like that that was the the dad character threw me a few different times where it reminded me a little bit of uh royal tenenbaum ever heard of him well where it's get ready jamie's about to draw a little parallel uh but in in terms of a father figure character who says and does a lot of things that are, you know, shit, outwardly shitty to his family. But the way he's presented, it's like, oh, but this is just it's silly.

It's presented like this is funny. Right. And at times it's like presented to make him look dumb because his wife can manipulate him whenever she wants and she's smarter than him and we know that right but my thing was like how that arc ends for royal tenenbaum and for this character is like there's never really quite a moment of reckoning for him where he has to say like oh maybe the way i was viewing this was incorrect. Like, as far as he'll go is to accept a man into his family. There's no real, and then we're sort of led to believe, well, the conflict between him and his daughter is resolved now.

And it's like, well, he was calling her ugly and old, and that she would shouldn't, like, we don't really, I think it could have been useful and interesting to have a scene with, with them by the end. Yeah. Where he, even if it's like, you know, it doesn't need to be in an overwritten, like, you've learned, I, yes, queen. Like, it doesn't have to be that. You've taught me so much, daughter.

Yeah. But I mean, does even like some acknowledgement of, you know, however that would be written. I was like, oh, because most of the family, I feel like you do get that journey with the mom and the aunt and we get to know them and we see them kind of in action and they change. Right. But then, I don't know, I felt like the dad could have, that character could have been.

Especially because, like, I mean, the first line that's spoken in the movie is him saying you better get married soon you're starting to look old and then her voiceover comes in he says that several times and then her voiceover comes in and she says my dad has been saying that to me since I was 15 because nice greek girls are supposed to do three things in life marry greek boys make greek babies and feed everyone until the day we die so this is like where i you know i heard this i'm like oh this is going to be a movie where she's like challenging the status quo and then i like doesn't happen as much to my liking but this is also a movie from 2002 so you

know you can't have everything you want and then there's also there's other moments that i feel like could have been challenged more where like her brother nico is i think one year younger than tula and nico's all like oh dad i'm gonna marry someone soon and then the dad's like you got plenty of time and then meanwhile tula who's only a year older than her brother they're like you look old as hell and you're gonna die alone if you don't get married fucking yesterday and i mean well that's really intentional right that's like the joke right yeah i know no no sorry sorry jesus but like i just mean that like sounds like you need to take a seminar i just feel like that i think i just want to see things challenged more than is realistic for me to expect of movies but um you know maybe i'm just like being overly um i'm giving it a very generous reading i i do feel like

in every scene there is that tension like there are certain things that are under challenge but they are like explored in a way where like the audience can like come to those conclusions if that makes sense like without there being like confrontation after confrontation yeah but then again you know that's just like from me you know being a generous uh viewer of the of the movie but i don't know the nico character is actually interesting to me because i think you could read it as him being coded semi-queer because there's like him wanting to be an art like there are certain like trigger words where i was like obviously this is like me reading too much into but i was like this is like

an interesting mini arc to add to this movie from and i know that nieva rodolos is like like a huge kind of like being a queer ally is like a very big part of her like identity as a celebrity and like after she made this movie like when she finally got a chance to make a big budget movie she literally made a drag queen movie with tony collette which like ended up i still haven't seen it it's not i mean it ended up not doing great but but anyway there were and there were like i feel like there were many kind of things like that that were coded in a way that maybe i didn't understand at the time when i was watching the movie but now I'm like just like the way the female characters are written are very kind of like larger than life like almost like diva characters yeah um and even just like

the casting it's like they're like made to be kind of like worship I don't know Andrea Martin and Lainey Kazan are just so good in it um where was I going with this oh yeah Nico I I do feel like there are many ways to read his arc. Sure. And I mean, he didn't need that like tiny little subplot. Like that didn't need to be in the movie. But the fact that it was put there. I loved it.

Yeah, it was interesting. Just like going through the trouble to really flesh out this family that as much as it seems like it's, you know, like turned up to an 11, the existing stereotypes, it's like going back and having like, no, he's not just like a meathead. And we plant the seed of like, look, dad, I drew on the menu. He's like, I don't care. And he's like, get back to work, son.

And then later he's like, I'm going to art school. I was like, you know, I liked those mini journey. I feel like Andrearea martin's character had a bit of a journey herself where by the end she can accept vegetarians into her life maybe like there's everyone had a little i don't know i i'm i know i'm gonna give this movie a break in every possible turn well i'm here to be the one to be like, excuse me. But I do think that the central problem of this movie, I really love just the question of how can I live my life as I want to? How far can I push that and still be able to have my family in my life?

And my culture. It's like a cultural thing, too. Like, yeah. Like, can it be both ways? I think where the movie lands on that question is kind of ambiguous and maybe not enough of what Tula wants, but... Right. Well, that, like...

It's an ambiguous thing. Well, you were saying before, George, about there being a balance between like the movies presenting things and it's not like slapping us in the face with them. And it's kind of like letting the audience like make our own kind of judgment calls on these things. I feel like would have worked better if it had ended slightly differently because the end of the movie feels like the thesis statement about the whole thing, which is when she's talking to her six-year-old daughter and her daughter's like, Mom, do I have to go to Greek school? And she's like, yes, but I'll promise you this. You can marry anyone you want. Like that's the thesis statement of the movie. But I feel like because it's so much emphasis of what she's saying right then and throughout the whole movie being about her marrying this like non-greek guy i don't know i just i guess i just wanted to see more of like her burgeoning

career or her something else i i think that like the the what it came down to at the end i was like whoa how did that movie end that way so easily and i think what it is as we at the beginning besides like we don't really know outside of wanting a life of her own outside of her family. We don't really know what Tula wants out of her life. And that is never made super clear to us before she meets the guy. And so then I think from there, because we never found a, like, whatever ambiguous goal, we see her do things. It seems like she's taking steps towards something but we don't know what that is right and so once she meets the guy then it's like

oh well the relationship is the central thing now and we kind of lose seeing her at the job we sort of lose the like everything else sort of falls away and then the movie lands on like but she can do exactly what her parents wanted to, but with a wasp instead. She can marry a man and make half Greek babies and make food for those. Which is an act of rebellion on her part. Sure. But the fact that it still focuses on her relationship to a man so much is where I feel like the movie could have gone. And it's like if that had been one of her many journeys where she's,

if the movie's about her sort of kind of reinventing herself and figuring out who she wants to be as this person in this family, within this culture, but also in the U.S. and like, you know, in the modern times of 2002 like it could have been yeah i want to this is my lifelong dream because she even says in the movie yeah she goes to that seminar of tourism plus computers but she says before that where she's like i'm not going to pretend like i've always wanted to work in a travel agency but please hire me so like yeah we don't know what she wants to do in what if we don't we don't know? I don't know if she knows. Oh, does she say it?

Yeah, she says something. She's like, I'm not going to pretend like I've always wanted to work in tourism, but like. She's trying to get out of the restaurant. I don't know like the right way to say this, but I feel like I would push back a little bit on like kind of like desiring a traditional self-empowerment narrative. Just because I do feel like that's kind of a very American thing and the only thing I mean by that is that like essentially if you accept the fact that like when you are living within a family that's like very tight-knit and very kind of like its own world then in fact going from being a seating hostess at the restaurant to going

to being basically like the manager of the travel agency within the various like within this network of family businesses that actually that is that's a huge thing like i and i don't know if that's settling i think it's like finding your place in the family community right that and a place that works for you rather than a place that has been determined by your parents. And I totally get that. And that works for me. My point is more like from a narrative point of view where like her moving over, it's like going to classes and then moving to the job at the travel agency. That kind of tapers off story-wise after a while.

And then the focus of the story is all about the man. Right. Yeah, I feel the same way i don't know i it's tricky because it's like my favorite part of that character is watching her be like no fuck it i'm gonna you know i'm going to continue to be on good terms with my family i'll be mostly honest with them but i'm doing this this and this you know, this is what I'm doing. But kind of narratively, that serves to get her to the relationship. Right. And then it kind of goes away. Right.

Yeah. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss more stuff. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere,

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And we're back. Hi. Hi. How's everyone feeling? Oh, I feel so good. It's my big fat Greek. Oh, did everyone watch the TV show, My Big Fat Greek Life? No. Not good. I like tried to watch the first episode and I haven't watched like the sequel to the movie,

which came out a couple years ago. My mom and my sister watched it and did not enjoy it. It was not on my radar at all when it came out two years ago or something. I remember my mom made a big deal of my big fat Greek life coming out on TV, and then she was so upset. She was like, this isn't the movie. Yeah. And they also recast some of the main roles.

I can't remember who it was. They recast her husband. Yeah. It wasn't John Corbett. Yeah. There you go. So that was, I actually distinctly remember watching that and being supremely disappointed. Although I was telling Jamie that I recently watched Nia Vardalos's adaptation of Cheryl Strayed's Book of Dear

Sugar columns at the Public in New York which she like adapted and then she plays Dear Sugar in the play and it's basically like her in her living room wearing like pajamas and then like she'll get like an email ding and then someone will come in and like read a question and then she will basically like act out as though she's like thinking of the answer in real time. So she'll be like, dear, unlucky in love. Was it good? It was. No, no.

It was like a critics pick in the New York Times. It did well. Yeah, it's not. It's not like I feel like it could have been such a disaster based on my description of it. I do think that like of course it's going to fall into some cliches because it's literally like acting out an advice column. But she did a good job with it and I did cry. Oh. I'm glad Nia's thriving.

Yeah. It was like cool. I mean and it's like I feel like she had creative control over it. It was at the public which is really cool. Yeah. It was like a – I feel like it was like cool i mean and it's like i feel like she had creative control over it it was at the public which is really cool yeah it was like a i feel like it was a great thing for her go me is it still running is it over no no this was like uh maybe like a year ago oh no okay well maybe she'll tour with it um there's a scene i wanted to talk about it's right after tula's family has found out about her relationship with Ian and Ian is at her house and talking to her dad and saying like you want me to ask if I can

date your daughter she's 30 years old and then the dad's like yes I'm the head of this house and Ian's like okay can I date your daughter and the dad's like, no. And then Ian walks away, says to Tula, I'll see you tomorrow. And she's like, see you tomorrow. And it's just like that was like a nice act of defines on like both of their parts where they're like, yeah, I'm not going to listen to the dad. And yeah, we're going to keep talking. I like Ian's character whilst I would not personally fuck him I sort of

forgot I was like oh I don't you know because with rom-coms it's so dicey in terms of who you're getting and how they treat you but I thought that Ian character does pretty spectacularly well throughout the movie where you know it would have been so easy to make it be like

when he finds out that she was his waitress at the Greek restaurant for him to be like, ugh, or like, that was you? Like that would be so tropey and silly. But the way that plays out is she's embarrassed of her culture and her past at the beginning. And she calls herself like Frump Girl, which is like my heart. And he's like, I don't remember Frump Girl, but I remember you.

And you're like, oh. He does. He is kind of like just does the right thing at every turn. Yeah. He also like there isn't any scene where he's, he doesn't like in any way fetishize the wrong word but there's no scene where he's like,

your family is like spicy. Like there's nothing like that. Right, right. He's like, whatever. His family does that. Yeah, his parents are like, he, he. But his parents are interesting too

because again, obviously they're such exaggerated like, well, are they? I don't know. Bundt cake. We've all met people like that. But I do feel like at the end of the day they are written with compassion i mean well ian i mean compare him

to like benjamin bratt's character from miss congeniality who's just like negging sandra bullock the whole time and then like we've got this like he's an intellectual he's an educator you know he's like this just like sweet nice guy who is maybe a little like too perfect. But although I mean. But for the purposes of this movie and wish fulfillment, he's great. And it's so often that we see in movies that it's a woman having to change everything about herself to please a man and to be accepted by a man. But in this movie, it's him who's making like compromise after compromise to the point where he's like getting baptized and like all this stuff

and it's never tulip being like you have to do this he's like i'm willing to do this it's on his turn yeah yeah i think a line that he says is like i'll do whatever it takes to get your family to accept me and then his friend played by the bald one. Played by Nia's real life husband. Real life husband, Ian Gomez. Sorry, that was very rude. Who now, now they're divorced. Oh, the bald one.

Unbelievable. But his friend, Mike, is all like, her family has you by the short ones, which I guess means balls. Like she's got you by the balls. He sucks. And Ian's just like, shrug. ones, which I guess means balls. Like, she's got you by the balls. He sucks. And Ian's just like, shrug. Like, I'm fine with it.

So, yeah, I really liked that. He's a sweetie pie. I like it. He's so sweet. He's almost boring. But I think in the story, like, it works. He's nice. If he was an asshole on top of it, the story would have been way harder to accomplish it.

Because, you know both of them have to compromise so much and and i don't know and she makes him laugh i think like one of the reasons he likes her is that he like enjoys her sense of humor because in the beginning whenever she her like brain stops whenever she's like first like at their table yeah um she says something like oh look at me standing here like your own private Greek statue. And he's like, tee hee hee. He is loving it. Yeah, there's no, I feel like there was a way to write the script where like he actually ignores her when she's like frumpy

and then is into her and then realizes like, oh, she was beautiful all along. Right. But actually he was nice from the get-go. Yeah, he's like, you're a cut-up. This restaurant is well run. Also, isn't it funny? I was just thinking about this.

Okay, so this movie is written by a woman. Originally, they wanted to replace her. I read on Wikipedia that one of the actresses they were considering was Marissa Tomei,

who's like, let's say, whatever, more conventional Hollywood beauty or whatever. She ended up playing the role and then replacing her husband with someone hotter. whatever like more conventional Hollywood beauty or whatever um she ended up playing the role and then replacing her husband with someone hotter so she like like Nia replaced the male character with

someone hotter in the movie that she wrote which I feel like is so completely the polar opposite of what would normally happen in like any rom-com yeah absolutely totally I mean the fact that she got to star in her own script is like huge and And she was also I mean, this was like filmed when she was in her late 30s. And it came out when she was 40. And like, this was her big debut, which is also like very unusual. the movie is like its place in the culture like the fact that literally a movie written by an unknown woman in her late 30s who is like normal looking then literally became like the highest grossing like romantic comedy of all time and like to have your debut be like in your late 30s anyway it was just like i remember like the year after when she like SNL, and I was like, wow, this is the biggest success story of our time. It's almost as if sometimes movies about relatable people can relate to a large audience. Also, thank you, Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson, who made the movie.

I forgot that they made it happen but kind of on that point of you know her not being she's beautiful but like not your typical hollywood you know like super wayfish standard of beauty um we see a bunch of different body types represented in this movie where like if you look at the scene where all the bridesmaids are in their gowns. You see a pretty wide spectrum of women. A lot of the female characters are middle-aged. There's better representation of women's ages and body types. You see women eating in this movie, which you never get to see a woman eat a normal-sized meal that makes sense. And that happens a lot in this movie. I'm always looking for women eating food in movies. It gets me so excited.

I'm like, oh, look at them go. One last quick thing I wanted to say was that in this movie, a lot of the women you do see on screen, and this is commented on, but many of them are kind of portrayed as being nagging, which is a common trope-y thing that you see female characters do a lot. If they're not nagging someone, they die. which is a common tropey thing that you see female characters do a lot. If they're not nagging someone, they die. That is a line that is spoken aloud.

But then I got to thinking, well, are women ever actually nagging or are they just annoyed by all the emotional labor that they have to do to maintain a marriage and a household and run a business and all of that stuff? And I also feel like getting back to george to your point earlier it's made clear through the narrative that the guys who are saying that are in the wrong and they come off looking silly having said it yeah so yeah i i feel like the thing with like a story about like a Greek American immigrant family is that I really do think it would have been so much different if it was from a male perspective. And I don't think I personally like as a preteen would have responded as well.

I don't know. I mean, what if it was like John Stamos is the main character and then like he like meets Megan Fox and like that's the like that literally would have been the equivalent. I'm asleep. But I feel like it was it was a realistic portrayal of a Greek family while providing enough commentary at any given time to kind of like give you just enough context for you to like understand what's happening. Right. Yeah. Held up for me i'm like being so i'm like reacting so poorly to like any criticism oh my god no that's why we're doing this

yes i was personally really impressed and thrilled and happy that this movie i've seen 500 times but i was watching it for this reason for the first time I was pleasantly surprised and pleased that it holds up I feel like as well as it does I still don't love the ending I'm never gonna love the ending but having a rom-com for all the reasons we discussed that doesn't end I mean there's gonna be a wedding you show up there's to be a wedding. You show up, there's going to be a wedding. And the fact that she doesn't end up in a toxic relationship at the end of a rom-com is better than 90% of them do. And so, I don't know. It held up for me. I'm going to continue to watch it after horror movies.

I recommend that to anyone. Every Halloween. You will be unscared. You will be unscared. You'll be unscared if you watch this movie. Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Oh, there was one more scene with Mom and Tula. I just wanted to mention, they have, this movie passes the Bechdel test.

Yeah. Doy. But there's a few different scenes with Tula and Mom. And there's one where the scene starts with Tula saying mom and there's one where this scene the scene starts with Tula saying is my marriage killing dad and you're like I don't love where this is starting but then they have this great talk that I think again gives context for Greek culture that I didn't have and is great for their relationship where the mom is describing how she grew up and why she and Tula's dad immigrated to America.

And then comes out with the banger of a line, I gave you life so you could live it. I just got chills. I was crying. I was crying and I couldn't explain why. I was at work. And then, oh, feminist icon Yaya comes in. She's got a crown of flowers. How has she not come up?

I love her. I love her. I love her. I mean, that scene, yeah. And, of course, you could argue that, like, I mean, that character is, it's literally, like, old woman funny. Like, that is, like, character until that point. It's like she seems to have dementia. And, like, maybe you should look after her more, family. But she gets a moment.

She gets a moment. And, ultimately, every character is essentially like that. I mean, every character is a cartoon until they're not. Except for, you know, maybe the mom probably is honestly the most complex character in the whole movie. But every other character is like a cartoon until they have like a moment of being like humanized. And I also feel like I was kind of paying more attention to it for the first time on just like a structural level. And I feel like it is like all these issues aside just narratively it like hits the right notes and it's kind of like if you want to write

like a conventional rom-com i feel like it should be taught in like that class like it does that make sense yeah computers computers plus rom-coms yeah, I mean, this is like an example of a rom-com that doesn't, for the most part, reinforce harmful things and avoids a lot of the tropes of most rom-coms, but still is like, I don't know. Caitlin, it's going to be hard to talk me out of loving this movie and every I just it's I love it I think you're you're absolutely allowed because I don't have quite the same attachment as the two of you have I came at it with this more kind of critical like I mean look at the voiceover at the end where she says something like oh sometimes I'm afraid that it didn't happen it being her getting married and she's like I'm afraid that it didn't happen, it being her getting married. And she's like, I'm scared that I'll wake up and still be buttering garlic and waiting for my life to start.

But it did happen. And, you know, I figured some stuff out. So she's all like, oh, that thing that, you know, it didn't seem like she was that concerned about doing in the beginning. And it seemed like she was annoyed that her family was constantly pressuring her about it. That becomes the crux of what she apparently wanted all along well but on her own terms on her own terms sure which i appreciate of course but like again i just i was thinking it was going to go in a different direction based on the way it was set up where she's like oh my family won't stop pestering me about getting married and how dare they like inflict all these double standards on me that

they're not putting on my brother and like all this stuff but then she's like but i got married and now my life is awesome yeah i would say the voiceover bothered me more than like the actual ending that bothered you jamie like i feel like the voiceover was unnecessary but i also think that like it's almost like paying homage to like bad romantic comedy it's like and we're ending with a voiceover we're like well guys now we're here and here we are and i feel like i feel like there is an element of that i think in like nia verdalos as a writer i mean even the fact that she like wanted to adapt advice columns into a stage play like i think she has a little bit of that where she kind of, like, likes feel good.

She's a little basic. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah. Yeah. Oh, the last thing. So if, and I do think it's, like, interesting that this movie, for me as well, was paired with Bend It Like Beckham often. I think that Bend It Like Beckham, I mean, it's completely its own story. It's about soccer. But I understand why they're paired together, because there are some common themes

in them. I mean, I don't want to compare them because they're different. But, you know, Jess's story in Bend It Like Beckham does involve more direct defiance and a lot more direct conflict but that's not a rom-com right that's uh more of a teen movie because she's you know in high school and also the romance in that movie is very fucked up yeah she's there's a lot of things in that movie do you remember the line where he was like i understand what you're going through i'm irish yes oh yes yes we talked about that but then we got a bunch of people being like, well, at that time in history, like Irish people in the UK were heavily discriminated against and all this stuff.

And I was like, whoops, should have learned more about history. But in America, it sounded absurd. Right. Also, the tone of those two movies is so different. Like, Bennett Lake Beckham is whatever. The tone is different. Yeah, and the genre is different.

I understand why they get paired together, Yes. Bandit Like Beckham is whatever. The tone is different. Yeah, and the genre is different. I understand why they get paired together, because they're stories involving, you know, first-generation Americans trying to reckon with their culture versus what they want to do with their lives. Similar themes. Well, Bandit Like Beckham is... I'm sorry, you're so right. I'm sorry.

But you know what is first-generation Americans reckoning with their culture is The Big Sick, which has literally identical scenes with this movie. Yes, the dinner scene where they're trying to get set up. But in any case, it's a rom-com. Yes. So there's only so many places for it to land in 2002. Well, as we hinted at slash overtly said, the movie does pass the Bechdel test.

Tula talks to her mom, to her Aunt Vula, to her sister. A lot of the scenes where women are interacting are about either Tula's dad or about Ian. But there are a few like two line exchanges or more here and there that pass the Bechdel test. Shall we rate the movie on our nipple scale? Let's do it. I am going to go what's probably a little low on the spectrum of all of us. Tanks, tanks, tanks. And I know that this is a rom-com, and I know that then it's going to be about a romantic relationship and because

of hetero I'm getting there because of heteronormativity it's going to be about a relationship with a man and I understand all of that I understand that's how rom-coms work in mainstream American cinema but because I feel like there were opportunities to do a little bit more kind of challenging and commentary on what is, at least by today's standards, pretty sexist double standards and sexist takes on what a woman's role is in society and family and stuff like that. And the movie ends with her marrying a man and doing what her family wanted all along i'm gonna give it two nipples wow wow i know i know but you guys you guys can give it fives and you know and they just crashed their car but people listen to this in the car you know that being said i really really enjoyed tula's character. I liked that she was defiant in many ways.

I liked her as a lead in a romantic comedy movie. But the fact that the whole crux of the thing is like, yeah, my family wants me to get married, so I will. Okay. It just, I feel like there could have been a little bit more, like, more subplots revolving around other endeavors of her that she could have pursued. And a little bit more challenging of the status quo that was her pretty patriarchal family structure. So I'm going to give it two nipples. Are you giving the nipples to him? And I'm going to give one to Ian Miller.

Whoa. After all of that. Well, we do see both of his nipples. So many twists. We do. A few times. As he's being baptized. Which was when I was most attracted to him because I was not paying attention to his hair.

Right, right. And then I'm going to give my other nipple to her brother, Nico, whose nipples we also see because he walks in with his shirt off in at least one scene. So those bare nipples, that's who I give them to. George. Wait, how long have you been doing the nipples thing? Oh, forever. Do I just not listen to the end? Oh, my God.

You would not be alone there. You would not be alone. Wait, so what is the, how do you decide who you give the nipples to? It's up to you. Yeah, you can not be alone there you would not be alone wait so what is the how do you decide who you give the nipples sorry um it's up to you yeah you can give them to anyone you want it's just like arbitrary whoever and it's a based on a scale of zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women right right okay i would say because of the scenes with aunt vula and the mom and tula i can't i'm gonna give it five nipples because i can't not give it five nipples um and i'm gonna give two to the mom maria two to niever dollars and one to the avula i love it nice i'm uh gonna split the diff i'm gonna go three and a half um for many of the reasons stated i just

the the ending i feel like even in a rom-com there's a more interesting ending to this story and i wanted a little more of a resolution between nia or not nia between um also isn't in the series isn't her name nia? Don't they change her name? But you could, so the thing with the series is that I feel like you can so tell that it like she wrote something and then they gave her notes and the notes were all the wrong notes and then they just like did it. And it, I'm like regretting my five nipples cause I feel like I, it's like I fully understand the issues you guys are raising. We know.

No, it's fine. It's, it's your's your brain, your choice. So yeah, I'll go for three and a half. I think that it is great to see, even though, I mean, I don't know. I liked how we understood the way Nia Vardal has presented how women operate within this very specific setting, and also how they're able to, even if they're not toppling the patriarchy per se, how they're able to empower themselves and get what they need while navigating a very patriarchal system. Yeah, I just wish that I knew what Tula wanted to do with her life. It was never totally clear. So it very well could be what she ended up with, but we didn't know that.

And it was kind of like you were saying, Caitlin, of like, well, she ends up with a guy doing what her parents wanted. And maybe that is what she wanted just on her own terms, but we just never find that out. So that's the one place that this falls short for me. So I'm going to go three and a half, giving two to Tula. I'm going to give one to Maria. And then I'll give a halfie to Joey Fatone. That's perfect, actually. He really fell out of this conversation.

And it wasn't fair to him. Because he has like three lines in the entire movie. He's like, pasta. We were like, this is not the movie, Joey. Well, George, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This was lovely. Where can people find you online?

What would you like to plug? Follow me on Twitter, at George Zavaris. And then go on my website, and all my shows are there. If you're in the New York area, you gotta see him. You gotta. He's incredible. And now our embargo on men is back on baby

I actually can't speak anymore yeah he just actually faded away it was kind of beautiful so now Jamie you and I can just shoot the shit shoot the shit which includes plugging our stuff

follow us on social media at Bechtelcast. Go to our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon, at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. $5 a month gets you two extra episodes. TeePublic, go to our TeePublic store. I guess if you want merch, you can get it. It costs money, though. And otherwise, you know, have a great day.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do,

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