The Bechdel Cast - Mystic Pizza with Hallie Bateman

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Hallie Bateman make a pizza with their special recipe while chatting about Mystic Pizza.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @hallithbates on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELPHere's an interview from The Script Lab with screenwriter Amy Holden Jones - https://thescriptlab.com/features/screenwriting-101/3347-sitting-down-with-mystic-pizza-screenwriter-amy-jones/ Here's a video "Revisiting Mystic Pizza's Portuguese Culture w/ Annabeth Gish" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlfcbR7oWGY Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, They're just dreams. swaps of different meds, but by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast.

Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Jamie. Yeah. I have a secret recipe for my pizza, but I can't tell you yet. Why? I don't know. I'm not retired.

Are the reasons unclear? It's just a secret, okay? It's just a secret. Oh, you know what? I've heard. And I think what the actual reason would be, it's that a woman's heart is an ocean full of secrets. Including, is that what Rose DeWitt Picator was talking about at the end of Titanic?

Yes. Is the pizza sauce from Mystic Pizza? Exactly what she's talking about. I bet she's a big fan of that movie, honestly. Oh, she could have seen it. Wow. That's so interesting to think about. Rose DeWitt Picator, canonically, could have seen Mystic Pizza. She seems like she would go to think about. Rose DeWitt Picator canonically could have seen Mystic Pizza.

She seems like she would go to the movies. She's a regular lady. I bet her and her granddaughter went. Wow. Yeah, I mean, her granddaughter seems like she would have been the target demo, especially in 1988. I mean, she certainly loved to tease her hair, much like Julia Roberts. Wow. Okay, well, you Roberts. They're, wow. Okay, well, you know what?

Here's something. Here's something that's going to pass the Bechdel test. Oh, God. I don't give a shit what's in your face and sauce, Caitlin. I don't care. I'm not interested. That is my feminism. I understand. That's perfectly okay.

Wow. Pass the test. Welcome to the Bechdel cast, which is the name of the podcast, which is about the Bechdel test. Sort of. I mean, barely. Well, yes and no. It's mostly about pizza sauce and what's in it and women's hearts being deep oceans of secrets i feel like the secret ingredient to everything is like thousand island dressing but that that couldn't be the case in this case or i hope not unless unless unless it's thousand island dressing i'll never tell this is our this is our podcast uh where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens yes and we do use the bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to inspire a larger conversation and the bechdel test is of course a media metric created by queer cartoonist allison bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test, in which our variation

on the test is two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man. Slash, again, another little twist we have on it is, does fit those criteria and also is it a meaningful conversation to the narrative or is it a quick exchange that could easily be removed from the story and nothing would be changed yeah fortunately not too much to worry about today although right you know we'll talk about it uh And we have an incredible guest, per usual, to talk about this genuinely lovely movie. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk about it. And our guest is a writer and illustrator.

Her work has been featured in The New Yorker, The New York Times. She has a new book out right now called Directions. It's available wherever books are sold. It's Hallie Bateman. Welcome. Hi. Welcome. Thanks for being here. I'm so happy to be here. We're really happy to have you and you brought us mystic pizza. You brought us actual mystic pizza. Yummy, yummy. Thank you so much. It's scrumptious. I came with pizza. I don't like to come empty handed, you know. We appreciate it. We thought it was really, really kind of you to do. God, I feel like, yeah, we're just like LARPing being able to see people. Wow, thank you so much for bringing the

pizza. Oh my goodness. Tell us about your relationship, your history with the movie Mystic Pizza. Yeah. So my story with Mystic Pizza is just that it was like love at first viewing. I just loved this movie from the first time I saw it. I think that was, I don't remember exactly how old I was. I think it was like late high school, early college, like came across it somehow. And it wasn't like I saw it and I was immediately like, oh, this is my favorite movie. It was just the kind of thing that, like, every time I, like, rewatched it or, like, revisited it, I was like, oh, this is, like, my favorite movie. Like, this movie just is good and surprising. And, like, I have a huge affinity for like Gilmore girls. Like I'm a real Gilmore girls obsessive. So the sort of like East coast, like environment, like I grew up like on the

mountain and the boonies in the West coast. So there was something very like appealing and like different about like lobsters and like the Atlantic Ocean that was just like so exotic to me and so and I love like cable knit sweaters and like fall leaves so it's just got the whole package plus like Julia Roberts I mean it's just it's a sexual awakening in a movie her hair is so big I love it there's an entire like hole in the ozone layer dedicated to her her hair her hair has like a metamorphosis throughout the movie like it's yeah it's incredible yeah i kind of hope that look comes back i i was as i was watching it i'm like teased hair it's time it's time i'm ready jamie i think you could really get this trend started again i

have really messy hair. It would be a trend that would work in my favor. Right. I do think she pulls it off like better than anyone else has. I mean, true. It's a hard look to land. Yeah, she nailed it, though. She does. Jamie, what's your relationship with this movie? I had never seen this movie before which is i kind of i guess i'm kind of surprised i i've seen a lot of rom-coms and this movie i grew up in new england and so i don't know why i wasn't like held down and made to watch this movie as a kid but i wasn't but i really really enjoyed it there were like i don't i don, like, because the movie came out in 88. I was just like, well, you know, we'll see how this holds up. And I definitely have some, you know, like, thoughts on it. But in general, I thought

it was a really well written and thoughtful movie that reminded me, I guess I'm a little biased, because it's like three poor, like friends who are all like sort of related, but sort of not reminds me a lot of my childhood. And, and mystic reminds me a lot of where my mom lives, which is like a fishing town in Massachusetts with a huge wealth gap. Cause my mom famously loves to date lobster fishermen. And so a lot of this was ringing some bells. I was like,

Oh yeah. Like just like bougie people walking among the regular people and being like, wow, this is so cute is like something that is very recognizable to me. I don't know. So I liked I felt like this movie captured that in a really cool way. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I also had never seen this movie. I will say it's the type of movie that I'm not generally drawn toward. Like, I like a good character driven movie here and there. But I also tend to prefer, you know, adventures and romps and such, such of course so I wasn't sure if I would like this or not but then I was very much taken by surprise in that I did like it a lot and I

yeah I think it holds up pretty well for a movie from the 80s I love Jojo I did take a not a BuzzFeed quiz but like a similar quiz it was like zoo.com I was like where did you find this website I just googled like BuzzFeed mystic pizza question mark and this quiz came up I did get Jojo as which mystic pizza character are you so I was very pleased with the results I got cat wow so that makes me Julia I feel like and I'm there by by default I guess I'm fine with that or this recording really isn't gonna work it's like when you're doing a sex in the city like joke with your friends and you're naming who each one is and then whoever's left over just has to be the fourth character. Right. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised with this movie. I have been to Mystic Seaport before, so I've been to this town. I went with my family sometime in elementary school, and I do have a memory of this place.

Did you go to the pizzeria no we did not I'm so sorry that's okay go back though I wonder yeah I wonder how I mean Hallie and I apparently both today were on the official mystic pizza location website to try to get t-shirts that are like the ones in the movie and uh it seems like yeah it's become a real like the movie made the pizza place like more famous and they just leaned into it they're like yeah whatever the movie said that's what it's like but the the movie would not exist without the pizzeria exactly which is like a wild confluence of events right it's like a chicken and egg but like wow which came first it was the pizzeria uh should i do the recap and we'll go from there yeah let's do it so we are in mystic connecticut

which is a small fishing community with a significant population of Portuguese American families. The movie focuses on three best friends, two who are sisters, Daisy and Kat Arrujo, who are played by Julia Roberts and Annabeth Gish, respectively. They are good friends with Jojo Barboza, who is played by Lily Taylor. We open on Jojo's wedding to Bill, and that is Vincent D'Onofrio. Young Vincent D'Onofrio. I wasn't prepared. Same.

Yeah. He's so huge. He's such a huge man. I was trying to rack my brain and I'm like, have I seen him in anything else besides the like alien villain in men in black oh i'd seen him in law and order criminal intent with my mom okay that's where i'd seen him great but i'm looking where where is he at he was in full metal jacket haven't seen it he was in a show called the series in don't know in men in black is he the guy who says sugar water correct okay yeah that's an iconic performance that my brothers and i were absolutely obsessed with replicating so that's very dear to my heart

i think that's him right now i'm gonna be embarrassed if it's not i'm pretty sure wait now i have to not meet googling vincent d'onofrio sugar water it's also like his face like stretched over an alien at that point yes it is he is the sugar water guy okay that's what i thought oh cool there's a whole vulture article about it vincent d'onofrio's men in black a sugar water oral history wow okay so obviously it's like a cultural touchstone that a lot of people are into sugar water's impact was felt more than i could have imagined and then also i wasn't ready for baby matt damon in this i know his first film appearance i believe yeah so such a baby a little little yuppie but also like could be the same character from Good Will Hunting based on geography like he was you know he was on the east coast like it could be like young Will you know

he could be like what is that other movie he could be fantastic Mr. Ripley-ing and like has a fake identity a talented Mr. Ripley yeah talented Mr. I was thinking of fantastic mr foggs you know what let's just recap the movie okay so um we open on jojo's wedding to bill she faints because women be fainting women be fainting but she faints for a funny reason she faints at the thought of a long-term commitment and the wedding gets called off that priest in that scene was cracking me up like that that guy gave a performance of like well i didn't write down any of the quotes but it's like you will be together until your last breath so good and then like jojo's face is so good she just looks not like she's like absolutely like paralyzed with fear.

And I love that it's like the music and like the camera being like first person just makes it like a full horror movie, like her wedding day. Yes. Also, was there only one style of Bridesmaids dress for the entire decade of the 80s i feel like we have seen that exact dress in so and including like my parents wedding too wow it just seems like it's not just in movies like that i you know no disrespect to people who would wear that dress but that hideous dress has been worn by so many people it's just like flammable fabric. Whatever it is, it just looks like it would catch on fire really easily. It's shocking to me.

Like if it's a rich person's wedding, they have that dress. If it's a poor person's wedding, they have that dress. Like it just everyone wore that ugly ass dress. Mystery. The 80s. I know. Truly. So then we cut to Daisy,isy cat and jojo at work they all work at this place

called mystic pizza which is owned by liana played by conchata pharrell r.i.p r.i.p daisy's whole thing is that she's kind of crass she swe swears. She's a big flirt. Her sister, Kat, by comparison, is far more modest and reserved. She's like the good girl of the family. And then like Jojo, how to describe her? She's wacky. She has a bit of a frantic energy bill is humiliated about the wedding and how it went wrong but he still wants to get married and jojo's like uh you know i do love you bill but i don't know about this whole marriage thing meanwhile cat gets a second job working for this guy tim travers babysitting for his young daughter phoebe tim is also just like another person who like only could have existed in the 80s. Just like looks wise.

You're like, where did all those people go that look exactly that way? I hate Tim. Fuck Tim. Yes. Tim is absolutely trash. Okay. So she gets a job babysitting while Tim's wife, his wife, is working overseas. Because she's trying to save up money because she got into Yale to study astronomy.

And she and her friends are all working class. So, you know, affording Yale will not be the easiest thing for Kat. You know who's not working class is this guy guy Charlie Windsor Jr. or whatever the shit. He's got like 500 names. I can't stand him. Yeah, he's this rich yuppie kid who one night comes into a bar where Daisy, Kat, and Jojo are hanging out and Daisy thinks he's. And he takes a liking to Daisy and asks her to play pool with him, which she's really good at.

That scene is so fun. Yeah. And then Charlie's like, boing, boing, boing. But then his rich yuppie friends are like, let's get out of here. So then he leaves. Lorna. Do you guys remember Lorna?

Lorna. One of the women that he's with. She was just like why why can't we play pool at my house it's like she has a pool table it's like shut up lorna i thought it was so like there it was really funny that it was like they came in and they ordered wine at a bar and then the three girls the like uh daisy gets so upset she's like what the fuck how dare they like it is it's as as uh someone who's frequented townie bars i'm like that tracks that tracks that's not the place to order white wine right then we get a scene where daisy cat and joe were just hanging out they're talking about their futures daisy feels kind of aimless and then a few days later daisy comes home and there's charlie talking to her mom and shimmy tests that one i don't think it does very well love when someone just shows up yeah he had to have stalked her or correct detectived her i don't

know right like even like for sure he just had to stalk it but it's like in a way that would be i mean it's hard it's thankfully hard to find out what someone's address is now but you have to imagine it would have been even harder in 1988 like well how did he i don't know maybe it's a rich person thing and he's just like you're a hard woman to track down or something but then it's funny that she's almost like not surprised she's just like yeah men men track me down all the time you're like this is scary this is scary and also her mom i would be very protective of my daughter if some random guy just showed up and was like i'm just here for your daughter right who i've like barely actually ever spoken to and then he like insults her mom and he's like your mom needs a drink i'm like you

did look at what you're doing um that was like one of the more 80s moments of this i'm like oh we're just gonna let this fly right by okay got it yeah and then he takes daisy out on a date in his red porsche they get to know each other turns out that he's an ivy league school dropout meanwhile cat has been chatting with tim travers the guy that she babysits for and it seems like maybe something's developing there then back at mystic pizza they watch this restaurant critic on TV who tends to give, you know, scathing reviews. And they think that they should invite him to Mystic Pizza to try their signature pizza. Also, Leona has a secret recipe for the pizza. But Leona's like, this guy's a pretentious moron. We're not going to

have him here. Yeah. So then Daisy and Charlie get closer. Kat and Tim are clearly developing feelings toward each other. Jojo and Bill are trying to reconnect. She is very horny for him. He doesn't get why she won't marry him she's horny for his wrists yes well i do really appreciate how they just like blatantly objectify bill in the scene where like jojo is just like oh my god in his body like it's just like it's it's right because later he's like you only like me for my dick and she's like well i can't argue with that yeah that whole yeah that whole storyline was like i was like surprised by it because it's like so often the opposite where it's like she's a prude and he all he wants to do is get her a bet but he's like no the lord doesn't want us to fuck and she's like but i'm horny and you're like god this is such a new england

issue he's just like waiting around for her to propose yeah yeah yeah his whole thing is like he loves her he wants them to be married and he wants this firm commitment instead of them kind of like sneaking around but then they have a fight because he makes a joke and calls her a nympho, which he like plasters on his boat. Yeah, that was some projecting on his part. Yeah. And then she retaliates by taking his truck and driving it to the country club

where Daisy sees Charlie with another woman. So she dumps two like 50 gallon barrels of fish from Bill's truck into Charlie's Porsche convertible. But it turns out the woman, this other woman is Charlie's sister. So Daisy is like, oops. And Charlie's like, you know what? No no big deal I've got so many Porsches like he's like kind of like oh that's funny and you're like well it's he's not wrong but it's basically a flirt of that he's just like oh she flirted with me she dumped fish in my Porsche I guess she really likes me really want to dump fish in someone's car now it was that was a very cathartic thing to watch right so then Bill breaks up with Jojo you know she's not sure what she wants exactly Daisy and Kat get in a fight because

Kat has been spending all this time with Tim andisy is kind of sick of everyone acting like cat is this perfect little angel but she's also looking out for her sister and then cat and tim kiss and it's implied that they have sex right i yeah it cuts away but i think they 100% bone yeah yeah yeah like in a haunted mansion you know right I was like where is this there I hate him so much he's the worst yeah he's the worst really is the worst kind of person and my only if I if there's I mean there's one thing I would change about this movie is she should have you know I know it was a pride thing but she should have taken that man's money i swear to god yeah fuck that guy so kat and tim have sex and then later that night they discover that tim's wife has come home from england and kat is heartbroken she feels really foolish daisy comforts her and then that pretentious

food critic comes into mystic pizza and they're all worried about what he's going to think because it maybe seems like he didn't like it. He looks like such a cartoon character. He's wearing like a bucket hat. It's sort of not like visually, but just the whole vibe of it. I'm like, oh, it's like Ratatouille. Yes. Except he looks like Sherlocklock holmes for some reason you reminded me of this i wonder if this was a reference or if this existed back then but there used to be this like public access show

in new england called phantom gourmet and it was like a big deal if phantom gourmet came to your like local restaurant and they would like broadcast it on the pbs affiliate and like if you had the phantom gourmet sticker it was like big deal this sounds like it's so similar yeah right and like i wonder if they were if if they were hip to phantom gourmet because i don't know i don't know if it was like one person though mystery i find it interesting that he is like a tv food critic because usually food critics like they like don't want their faces to be known. So the restaurants like don't know when they go in. Right. But he's like just on TV.

Yeah. The Phantom Gourmet wasn't a purse. So that was the whole point is you didn't know who it was. Like it says the Phantom pays his own way and dines under a disguise. Like it's like banksy he's the banksy of new england food critics yes yes yes yes amazing okay so then daisy has dinner with charlie's rich family who you know they're they're snooty and young matt dam Damon is there. And they say some disparaging things about people from a lower class, about Portuguese people. Charlie yells at them. But Daisy's like, oh, you're clearly just dating me,

you know, a poor townie to get back at your family. And she storms off. And so everything's a mess. But then the restaurant critic, who I forget what name he goes by in the movie. As soon as you said Phantom Gourmet, I'm like, it wasn't that. But it was basically the same thing. But he gives his review on television, his face exposed to the whole world. And he's like, this pizza from Mystic Pizza, it's the best pizza I've ever had. So everyone's all excited. The business is gonna do great. Jojo finally marries Bill. We see the wedding reception. Charlie comes to apologize to Daisy. They make up. And then the movie ends with the three women being like, hmm, I wonder what Liana puts in her pizza. And that's the end.

And then they look up at the stars. At the stars. And then a corny song plays. And you're like, yay, friendship, sisterhood. This movie has so much saxophone in it. It really does. It's a very saxophone-heavy film. I don't know what that song is at the end, but it was making me laugh.

It was like, friends are always going to be friends. And you're like, sure, sure. And then in the credits, you see, like, sponsored by big saxophone. Just like. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia.

I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. These are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S.

president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life.

It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120.

She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything?

You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back.

So the first thing I wanted to talk about was the fact that, I mean i i tried to do some research to find out if there were any actors of portuguese descent in this movie at all it was a challenge i i couldn't i couldn't find out everyone definitely not julia roberts or annabeth gish that i could tell i don't did anyone have any luck there because for a movie movie that, you know, is talking about, you know, people of Portuguese descent quite a bit, it seems like there was like really no representation whatsoever in an actual way. Yeah, I'd imagine that maybe some of the like very tertiary characters who you like see speaking or singing in portuguese but i feel like as as far as the main cast yeah it didn't seem to be the case right yeah which i mean obviously it sucks and also the the there is like a large portuguese american community in connecticut and in areas of new

england mostly rhode island but like there there is a huge Portuguese American culture in New England and so I thought it was cool that it was spotlighted but then it's like but it's like you know an empty gesture to to an extent when there's no actual representation of it yeah and also like spotlighted with inaccuracies I like saw Annabeth Gish was like, did a video where she was like setting the record straight with a Portuguese guy. And he was just like, oh, wow. Yeah. He was like, here's a few things that he was from Portugal. And he was like, these things from the movie are not accurate.

Like Portugal is not into pizza at all. Like that's just not a thing. And like their last name their last name they pronounce it like arugio and they make like a big deal out of that in the movie like the pronunciation of their name but it's actually like not he's like that's just not a name in portuguese and he's like it's arugio is a name but that's like a different word but so i don't know it just seems like there could have been a little more like r&d the the background stuff any research especially because it was like filmed in an area where there was a portuguese american like it could it couldn't have been

an easier task right so that was that was frustrating i i thank you for we'll find that video and link it in the description because i'm like wow they really they they made annabeth gish face the music it literally seems like annabeth gish was on a movie set with a portuguese guy and she talked to him enough to learn some stuff from him and she was like let's make this quick video and it's like two minute video of him just like listing these things and she's like okay cool nice wild yeah wow okay that's that's good to know yeah i if we have any uh portuguese american listeners or just portuguese listeners um let us know your thoughts on my one of my best friends is half portuguese and i actually like have been to portugal with her oh cool but i mean i think she loves this movie so it seems like i because i was

looking for there there wasn't much written about it even though it was i don't know i i was looking to see if anyone had ever um you know like written about how portuguese culture is is represented here but everyone's just like i love the movie yeah yeah my friend nikki both of her parents are portuguese american who live in new england and I asked Nikki about how her family feels about this movie and she was like my mom loves mystic pizza everyone loves it I don't know I mean in general I just was like this is a very 1980s movie thing to do yes absolutely yeah to like make a huge I mean a huge deal of like, look at these Portuguese-American characters, but then not cast anyone of Portuguese descent and get apparently every fact wrong.

Yes, yeah. about this movie was its like willingness to explore class issues in a really like direct way because we talked about this with like rom-com or even just like coming of age movies in general all the time where it's like so often it's just like rich people like yeah it's just like there's gonna be a mansion party no one's ever worrying about like we talked about in the to all the boys i love before episode of how like there's a whole movie in that series about getting ready for college and no one is worried about how they're gonna pay for it and right i really appreciated and was like pleasantly surprised by like how willing to engage with class issues this movie was yeah it comes up in a couple different kind of scenarios to one where, you know, Kat is saving

up money, she's working what appears to be three or four different jobs to save up to go to Yale, and she has like a half scholarship, and she, you know, still needs to earn all of this money to be able to pay for tuition. Yeah. And, you know, how that's kind of like a constant struggle for her. And then with Daisy dating Charlie, this, you know, rich yuppie kid who has just so many different cars at his disposal. All of them, you know, like luxury vehicles. He lives in this mansion, all this stuff, and how it like, you know, creates this rift in their relationship, especially when she realizes that, you know, he's kind of dating her

as an act of rebellion against his family. And yeah, so I thought that was all pretty interesting i really liked it yeah i mean especially i i really really really love cat so i just like i don't know i love her so much like i had a very similar situation to her when i was her age and i was like you you can do it you're gonna be an astronomer and do all this stuff but um with the with the charlie daisy relationship i'd never seen something like that but that is like a thing that happens in cities or communities with like large wealth gaps of like you know if there are uh young couples that it's like you have to go to their house and be like i'm gonna act like i'm not poor and see if that works. And like another just like, oh, like, this is amazing for 1988, where it is like pretty clear that Charlie, to an extent, is like bringing her over to like get a rise out of his dad.

And she calls him out on it right away. And she's just like, no, you humiliated me to like, because of your because of your daddy issues. Like, leave me out on it right away and she's just like no you humiliated me to like I don't because of your because of your daddy issues like right leave me out of it like I just yeah I thought that that was like incredibly cool and I'd never seen a situation like that actually like play out on screen and have like the person from the lower class like get the final word in in a way that was like really satisfying and cool and yeah I just loved it I love that she says when they're like fighting in the driveway and I love that she's just like you're not even good enough for me like because it was kind of it was kind of like inherently like

oh he's the rich one he has the car like whatever and then she like gets a ride home with her friend who's the maid at their house and she's just just like, give me a ride. Like, I love I love how she actually all these women like, I guess, Kat, maybe less in a less like dramatic way, but like have really powerful moments where they're like screaming at men. And like, it's very satisfying. Yeah. Like, I love like when Bill puts a nympho on his boat and he's kind of like embarrassing her in front of the entire town like I love that Jojo just straight up like screams at

him and she's just like you can't force me to do anything I'm not ready to do and like this is so not okay and like she says like everything that I would imagine you would be afraid to or like you would think of later you'd be like oh I should have said that right like she says all of it and it's so awesome and like her friends are right there with her and like yeah oh my god yeah she's like I don't have to marry an asshole it's the 80s oh my god like it that whole like performance was so good and like to and i love that she gets like a standing ovation from the tourists right so bizarre but it i really liked it also just feels like such a new england thing for all these like all these people to be like projecting at each other at like the speed of light where like Daisy projects

on the cat cat projects onto Daisy like the mom projects onto everybody like just everyone is like very loudly not dealing with their problems which I was like wow totally that's wow that's so real I love that Jojo one of her main traits is that she just fully carries on conversations fully by herself and everyone else around her just like silently like she'll just be like thank you guys so much for everything you've said but she's like the only one talking in the conversation and just like goes on a full tangent those scenes are so funny yeah yeah the one especially where she's uh she has just been broken up with by bill but she comes in acting like she was the one who broke up with him and then she just goes on this long soliloquy and the whole time she's just like wow i'm so glad

my friends are here supporting me and agreeing with me and validating me and meanwhile they've said not a word she also like loki like is like and leona you're gonna give me the business one day right and leona's like um sure they're all like being held hostage by her feelings uh i love that like that happens at like it's the funniest and like i think like the best when it happens with jojo but i i like that that happens at like multiple different points in this movie where everyone's got like their own shit going on but then when someone else's like problem comes into the like they they put their own shit aside and they show up for each other like every single time like i i liked that moment where kat is like devastated she feels so like used by tim and she's like fucking up at work and leaving

like raw pizzas on tables and stuff but then when she realizes like the phantom gourmet is there she like snaps into it she's like okay i'll deal with my shit later like right now this is leona's moment and like just those quick i don't know you're just like oh these women like know each other so well and they care about each other so much that they can just like be so like raw nerves with each other but then also always know like when they need to show up for each other. I love it. Yeah. And Daisy does that too with Kat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When she's like, you know, Kat comes home,

she's been wearing Daisy's boots and Daisy's like, quit wearing my nice boots and quit using my comb. Your scuzzy hair is in it. And then Daisy realizes that Kat is devastated and then shuts off any like anger and resentment that she was feeling toward Kat. And it's just like, I'm here for you.

Like cry on my shoulder, whatever you need to do. Yeah, it was it was a really nice moment. I love like for me, the thing about this movie is it's a story about like female friendship. But also, you know, each of these three women has a major storyline that revolves around a man, which just feels very typical and expected of this type of movie. I wish it maybe had been more about the friendship or that we had seen more scenes of the three women together. I wish there were just more movies that were actually about female friendship and don't get bogged down in these like subplots about men. We had that same issue with was it Fried Green Tomatoes? There was like another there was another movie from this like era where it like markets itself as being all about female friendship. But then it actually is about relationships.

Yeah. A big one for me was Waiting to Exhale. Oh, yes, yes yes yes yeah where it's like oh wow all these amazing women are going to be talking to each other the whole movie and then you're like oh wait actually there's like three scenes of that yeah it's about husbands right and most of the scenes are them helping each other deal with like men's bullshit right right which is pretty true of this movie as well that was like i don't know like i didn't hate that they had love interest like okay that's the convention of the genre but it did like at some points especially because i absolutely hated charlie so much and i know that like his storyline was like helped you explore these class issues but i just

couldn't fucking stand him there's too much of him he's such a little wiener he really is i wish there were just more movie yeah bottom line i wish there were more movies that not only appear to be about female friendship but are kind of more exclusively about that right that being said though i'd still i think it would have been a much easier and more kind of predictable choice for you to get three very kind of basic like standard rom-commy type storylines that don't explore anything meaningful but with at least with the three romantic subplots we get you know like we said one of them deals pretty heavily with class. One of them deals with a woman debating about whether or not commitment and like marriage is

something she wants, which like that was, I think I love Jojo so much because I related so hard to her being like I'm afraid of commitment I think I can do it in the future but I don't want it right now and you are rushing me and it feels like you're Bill you're forcing me into something I'm not ready for and I like through his character too that like you get a totally like just an unusual depiction of like male sexuality too yeah right and i also really liked that after she passes out and like ditches their wedding like i mean not to like give him too much credit but just the fact that like his character's like okay and i i know that they still fight and stuff but just the fact that like they can even reconcile as like more impressive communication than most characters in TV or film ever are able to accomplish.

Like if that was on friends, it would just be like, and then I never saw her again. He would disappear from the wedding. Yeah. Like I, I like that he still shows up and he deals with being humiliated in the town and like,

yeah. And you know, he has perhaps some toxic habits where he was like about to punch a guy who was like mocking him. And for instance, putting nympho on the side of his boat maybe wasn't ideal. No. Yeah. But at the same time, yeah, I think there was like a display of masculinity with his character that I think we don't often see, especially for so many movies are guilty of this thing I hate where they depict like working class people, specifically working class, where we know that, you know, people of any, men of any class can be steeped in toxic masculinity. But I feel like it's rare to see a working class man be a little gentler or be someone who like is a little bit more in touch with his feelings and who like really strongly cares about commitment and things like that yeah i mean i feel like it inverts the

like church girl trope that we see used pretty frequently in like but it's not i i don't know like it it is even that is like reductive in the way it's usually presented but with him it's like oh no he like takes his religion very seriously and you can feel however you want to feel about that but it's like it's important to him and i i don't know like watching them navigate that relationship was interesting like it was i wasn't like i don't know i was i wasn't it's rare to find a relationship in the 80s that i'm not actively rooting against like i still feel like you know he should have let her wait a little longer you know like i would because in that amazing like monologue that she gives she's just like

saying i don't know like it's such a complex thing that is also very normal of like, I do want to get married and I do care about this person, but I have other things I wanted to do first. And like, I don't know if we're going to that way as just like a fact of life that could be really like frustrating and like torturous for you personally because it's not like he's an evil bad guy like he's kind of an asshole but he lives in Connecticut so that's kind of right wow shots fired Massachusetts head well it's also interesting that they all kind of have different trajectories like with Kat it's like a foregone conclusion that she is leaving Mystic and that she is bound for like it's really presented as like she's bound for better things like her mom is just like everyone my daughter's going to yale like she's she's leaving and like and they talk about that they talk about mystic like this like you know bumfuck town that like everyone just needs to

like get out of but like you do get the sense that like she's might not be okay with it but jojo is like kind of gonna stay there because she's like she's really young and she's like met her you know person and doesn't know how to feel about that and like maybe doesn't have the way out that like Kat has right yeah I don't know I I definitely coming from like a really small town I mean I could see how scary it would be to like look down the barrel of that life and just be like wow um how am i supposed to be excited about this sure i i do wonder i mean of of all the characters i want to know where jojo would be 10 years later i wonder like i wonder if that's the sort of like maybe they move maybe she does end up

inheriting the pizza place who knows what happens yeah yeah she's she's like such a it would have been so easy to fuck up that character um but she does kind of have this rich interior life i just wish we knew a little more i wish i do wish we knew a little more about her outside of like she is a friend and she is gonna be a wife question mark but what you do get there is pretty complex yeah for me i found myself a little disappointed at the end when it's revealed that she and bill do get married so soon after she had been like yeah i want to wait a while you know and the same way and it's like the movie clearly wants you to not feel that way right you're supposed to be like oh because at the very least i like this little you know speech that she gives when she's like in the

cab of the truck with bill and she's like okay okay, I got to maintain my identity. I understand about commitment and I love you, but you have to know where I stand about this. You know, I want to be my own person. Absolutely nothing has changed even though we've gotten married, dot, dot, dot, except my name. So I'm glad that she, you know, is making her needs known about wanting to maintain her identity and you know not getting lost in being a his wife kind of thing but it just was very soon after it was so soon yeah right and and i just i wish that it i don't know if it was just because like well a movie starring women has to end in a wedding duh i don't think hollywood can resist ever like it just it's it's just like too good they just can't say no i was mostly like i have to i do appreciate that they

reused the dresses i'm like okay that is a working class wedding thank you because if they had had all new dresses i'm like they dropped the ball but i i hated to see those dresses again uh actually one of the things i love about this movie, just speaking of the dresses, is just like, I love that this movie is so not like Disney-fied at all. It's just like everyone looks kind of like not too much makeup. And like, like, obviously, Julia's hair looks amazing. And I'm sure that's where like 90% of the hair budget went. But I just I love that this movie is not like super glossy I just I really appreciate that it looks kind of like a little raggedy like

the real it looks kind of real and I I love that about it right it would feel really inauthentic if it hadn't been that way you know because if it's you know it's this story about these working class women yeah but if they're like all dolled up in expensive designer clothes and their hair and makeup looks like it was done by a personal stylist like that's usually not how that works right but they still look good and like trendy too because i also like don't like when it goes too far the other way and the implication is like working class people look like shit and you're like no like that's not the case either but i i yeah like though the details that they added in with the wardrobe like were like julia roberts i mean first of all like people wear the same outfit

more than once in this movie which is like makes sense that's how clothes work uh but you never see that in movies and and the like little detail that she like got this expensive dress but she's like but i'm not taking the tags off and i'm gonna return it you're like yeah that like that's another really good detail and oh yeah this is a really well-written movie i one thing i wanted to i i was hoping that there would be like an oral history piece about this movie. I couldn't find one. But I did think it was interesting. I couldn't find the reason why. But this movie, the story is by Amy Holden Jones, who has done a bunch of work.

She's also done the Beethoven movie with the dog. That's the most. Okay. most okay she also did should cover it excellent film she also this in back to back she did beethoven and indecent proposals so she's got range yeah she's killing it but um she you know came up with the story after um going to mystic connecticut and just i don't know i think she was just like cruising through and was like hey what if i wrote a movie which probably explains how um it wasn't totally uh researched very well but she was she was supposed to be uh the director of the movie but then at the last second she was not the director of the movie which is frustrating

because she had I mean she had had three directing credits prior to this three feature credits and then instead it was given to a director named Donald Petrie and it was his debut so it was like this movie was almost directed by an experienced director and then was instead given to a guy who had never directed a movie before which is just like hmm okay so jamie did you say you didn't find the reason why because i did find the reason why oh i didn't no no what's the reason okay because i i was scandalized okay so amy jones yeah seems amazing um she wrote the script shopped it it around Hollywood, and no one wanted it. And then eventually it was optioned by Samuel Goldwyn. And so he optioned it with her attached to direct it,

but then because women were really not allowed to direct at that time or it was very uncommon, he was just like, I'm not comfortable working with a woman director and she was like I mean I might be getting details wrong but the gist of it is like she was like okay well I I want the rights back she loved that movie and still calls it like her favorite thing she's done not Beethoven and so and so she wanted him back and he and this fucker was like, I actually have the rights until for the rest of your life. Like I own the rights like until you die. And so it went into court. And there was like a legal battle because he was saying that he had life rights and that she had said something verbally or something that had like given him the impression that he just had the rights to Mystic Pizza for the rest of her life. And then he wanted to like or like, oh, no, this was when they were shopping around Hollywood.

People were like, we'll make it if you change them all to men. Like if you make all these characters men, we'll make it. Yeah. Wow. And okay. And so then, so she was, I saw some quote where she was like, well, I learned like never to get in a legal battle with a multimillionaire because you'll just lose no matter, even if you win, you lose because they drain you, drain your finances. So I think she won so that it was decided that like, okay, your like license to make

this movie expires at this time or whatever. And so as the time was approaching, she said like Samuel Goldwyn was like freaking out and he's like, she said he hired like every writer in the world to try to like fix this movie. Fix it. Wow. Okay. Because yeah, there are four credited writers on this movie. Yeah. So I think he had a lot of people working on it. And then Okay. Because yeah, there are four credited writers on this movie. Yeah. So I think he had a lot of people working on it. And then he finally hired these two writers who had worked with Amy Jones. And when they got on the script, how they revised it was getting rid of everything that had been changed and brought it back to Amy Jones's original script. So what we ended up with

in Mystic Pizza is actually Amyy jones's like original script which i think is why it's good and i i'm sorry daniel pietri or whatever your name is like i don't think that it's you that made this movie great i think it's amy jones and like she said that it was a well-known story in hollywood and that she got many many writing jobs from mystic pizza and that like everyone knew kind of like what happened and like that it was really her film. Wow. Holy, thank you so much for, I did not find that even remotely. And it's like, that sounds like absolute torture and is also like not surprising at all.

I feel like we have at this point, I mean, we've covered so many stories where that's the case. That was like, that was like the story of the production of brave that was the story what else was it it's just like where a woman was kicked off and yeah and then it was given to a man in the 11th hour and there was a legal battle and just all this garbage that and and then bringing back most of the original plot points that had originally been there like yeah oh god, shout out to Amy Jones. Seriously. Holy shit.

I'm glad that we know. Come on the show, Amy Jones. I just followed her on Twitter. She's out there. Nice. Yeah. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia

was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the

hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson.

I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out?

I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Let's talk about Kat a little bit. We haven't talked about her too much. I love her so much. So her story, her like romantic storyline is the worst one. Yes. And yet very relatable. Yes. I was like, but i feel like at least it's aware of that where i i know that there are so many like predatory storylines that are like that end up

being like and it was love the whole time and i guess things just didn't work out for them but this unfortunately these types of abuses of power do happen. Like Kat is like she's a kid. She's very I don't know how if she's a legal adult or not, which is unclear. I wish we had known that because, you know, she's about to go to college, which would imply that she recently graduated from high school. So she's like 18. But also we see her at a bar. So is she 21? Like, did she wait a few years before

applying might just be a townie bar thing yeah so i don't we don't know how old she is i i mean it's regard i mean it's an abusive power no matter for sure if it's yeah she's a teenager and it's her boss who's preying on her i just i oh it so, it makes me so mad because like that shit does happen. And I at least thought it was like well written that like Kat, I don't know. Like I was in situations like that as a teenager where she's like inexperienced. She's shy. She's a people pleaser. And she doesn't, you know know necessarily know how to really assert herself

in those situations and she is you know attracted to him but it doesn't make it less of an abusive power for him to take advantage of that and like totally that all felt pretty well i was i kept like gritting my teeth to be like please don't end up telling me this is okay to happen and yeah but i i thought it was like a pretty well written storyline all the way down to his being a fucking coward and trying to pay her off like it just all felt like very like unfortunately realistic the other thing i thought was effective is that and this is something we talk about quite a bit where there tends to be villains or like predator characters in movies that are so cartoonishly evil that no one could see themselves reflected back in that person but because he's like on the surface

seems like a nice guy he He's a good father. You know, you kind of get lured into this idea that, oh, he's going to be, he's nice. He's fine. And then when he abuses his power and hurts her and doesn't hold himself accountable for anything he's done, and we realize just what a dog shit person he is i thought that was well handled in terms of like under other circumstances he probably seems like a nice guy but in such a way that like people could actually look at him and be like oh no i've done that before uh like that's this person is familiar to me kind of thing right so yeah I found Kat like even though you know I love

I think Jojo is my favorite character because I'm just like charmed by her but Kat is the character that I definitely definitely relate to the most and I think for me watching it when I was her age it was just like very relatable and like kind of cathartic to like see someone who was like wore like thick sweaters like and had no sense of her I mean I think she's she's obviously like growing up in the course of the movie but she her sister Daisy is like this like incredibly like vivacious like sexual being and Kat is I just remember being that age and it just felt like very very difficult calculus for me to even imagine like kissing someone or something so I feel like her her being drawn to this older guy who's like showing her attention like I just feel like I could totally imagine how that

would to someone who was like so inexperienced and like looking to kind of prove yourself or like you know everyone in the movie is always saying like oh Kat has no time for boys like she's going off to Yale and like it's kind of like when everyone points one thing out about you you want them to see the other side too like Kat doesn't need to be told that she's smart everyone tells her that she needs to be told she's beautiful or like she's sexy or whatever so this guy comes along and he like you know looks at her with his like Yale red hair like he's like weirdly buff architect man like I just think that she's he's he's getting her exactly where she's vulnerable and right and he's so he's so there's no excuse for his behavior in this movie like I was imagining like Jamie you kind of

pointed out earlier like the weird cuts where we don't see like we don't see that they sleep together it's just kind of assumed and we don't see them setting up their date when they do sleep together it just they just show up there and I was imagining when I was watching it like imagining so at one point like Kat and this like 30 year old guy like plan their date and like arrange for Kat's friend to babysit his daughter. And that's just so explicit. So it's not like it came over him in the moment. It's explicit. And he like,

it's like calculated. Yeah. Premeditated this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I,

I hate it so much, but I also, I totally agree with what you're saying, Hallie, about how he, he does like target her vulnerability and that I don't know like it kind of expands into how Kat and Daisy relate to each other where it seems like they you know it one one storyline I wish was explored more in this movie was their relationship with their mom because

it's so like yeah in like flashes I'm like can we like cut out some of the like love interest stuff and like focus on this mom relationship a little more because she really only has like one scene with each daughter and i would have liked to see all three of them together but totally it does seem like you know it's it's like cat feels this pressure to succeed or she'll disappoint her mother or she'll never move out of mystic which she clearly wants to do and like you know what her dream is I like that you see her at all these different jobs and it's not just like a joke that she's like oh she works a lot it's like you see it and you see her like struggle with it and and of course like it's it's you know it's like when that is your life you know it's like and and all you're valued for is your mind it's like you want i don't

know like a more whole experience in in in many cases right and i get like i get why cat bugs daisy for being so prized for her mind which which she doesn't even totally want. It's just how people view her. And I get how Kat is, I don't know, it just reminded me so much of like my older cousin and where I was just like, she's so cool. And like everyone loves her. And I can't talk to people. Like it's so frustrating and you like hold it against someone you love in this way that is like kind of like kind of immature and also just like I'm repressing my feelings and I'm just like frustrated that I can't present that way to the world because it looks so appealing and it's like it just feels so sisterly yeah Yeah. It's just good. Yeah. And I love also how Jojo is friends.

Because I have brothers that are really close in age, so we share friends. But these two really share friends. Jojo is equally friends with Daisy and Kat and will stand by them even when they're fighting. And I liked when when that happened and like yeah it showed that they're like this kind of functional trifecta yeah yeah and then like we were saying how they do show up for each other they provide support to each other when needed like to go back to this predatory relationship that Kat has with Tim like there was a little bit that again felt realistic although I think it would have been like Daisy probably

would have handled this differently were this to be happening in like 2021 but she sure it's clear that she's like looking out for her sister but it's also kind of happening under this guise of, like, judging her almost. Like, oh, you know, how typical that the babysitter is, like, having sex with the dad kind of thing. And, like, almost passing, like, judgment and shame upon her. But when it, like, comes down to it, Daisy is like whatever you need i'm here for you similarly jojo in like the car right she's just like yeah my guys my bill sucks but nothing compared to this piece of shit we just saw fuck tim like that scene that scene in the car is so good it's great yeah i i sort of i mean I guess I sort of like they do say very cruel

things to each other um and you know I guess in a perfect world like having them be like I am sorry that I said that cruel thing to you it just felt so sister to me that I'm like I don't you know or just like sibling relationships in general where you just say something like the meanest thing you can think of in the moment and then then like 20 minutes later, you're like, I'm crying. I need you to hug me. Like, it's just so chaotic, especially because they're so young. And yeah, the sibling relationship that I found completely unrelatable was Charlie Windsor and his sister who Daisy mistakes for his girlfriend. Wraps his arm. You're like laughing and they're like linked arms and she's very demure. And like, I'm just like, what?

You guys would claw each other's eyes out. Like I have two brothers. Like it's not like that. I know. I was like, is that a rich person thing? Like what the fuck? I was also, I was like, was that like just like plot writing or is that how rich siblings interact?

Don't really know. They might like not know each other because their rooms are so far apart in their like 20 room mansion. They just met. They're like, oh, we've met a few times in the halls, but he seems nice. Speaking to those, the, the, that family, I mean, going back to that family really quick, there was just one other thing I wanted to hit on with that scene. Like that is like, you know, where Daisy goes over to the house and the rich people are really rich peopling out. Another thing that happens in that scene that I thought was just like really, I don't know, like the attention to detail.

It's a little melodramatic. It's a little over the top, but like so is the whole movie. So whatever. it's a little melodramatic it's a little over the top but like so is the whole movie so whatever uh but when when they realize that daisy's a waitress and it's like that very bizarre like rich person calculus happens where they're like oh that's not gross at all we don't think that's gross in fact that's noble and we don't think you're disgusting at all that's really cool and you're like oh no that that just like i don't know that felt very real and then also the rich people just slipping and saying something completely like classist and like just like they say something just outright

cruel about portuguese people oh yeah and you like, that's a classic rich people moment. Totally. That just felt like it's a little over the top, but like not that over the top of like, I don't know. Rich people at dinner. Terrifying to me. And then like, it's like, I guess even though he does it for probably his own reasons, like Charlie's telling them off is like nice kind of until he like pulls the

tablecloth and like ruins their entire dinner flips Matt Damon's lobster yeah he kind of like I feel like he could have like calmly walked away after like giving them a piece of his mind and it could have been like wow he's really given us something to think about but then he like throws like a tantrum and it's very immature yeah i can't i hate charlie i can't stand him yeah he's such a yeah like i do i don't know i i i feel like no matter what he and daisy are not long for this world in terms of like is this relationship gonna go to the distance yeah definitely not I mean it honestly reminded me of Megan and Harry like it's like oh you're super racist like rich family that like you know I don't know if you guys watch like the Oprah interview but like yeah Harry like being like oh yeah I like learned I've learned a lot from her and I and I can totally see that this is like you kind of like get that like okay this guy is like choosing her over his like idiot family and taking the righteous path or whatever

and like I just don't yeah it it I think him speaking out I was like oh that's a little bit of like Harry like he's not gonna stand for this but then I don't think he's uh he's the guy for for Daisy I think Daisy deserves a lot better. No, because she's right. He is making it too much about him. Yeah. And I don't feel like he really rectified that. Like, I'm glad she, like, ripped him a new one and was like, no, fuck you.

But then he just kind of shows up. He's like, I'm sorry. And it's like, but did you mean? No, you know what? Yeah. He doesn't even say sorry. He says, so he says, I owe you an apology. And then she's quiet.

I didn't even register that. And he never gives one. And he doesn't actually say, I'm sorry. Here's what I did. And I'm sorry for it. Yeah. Oh, no. I didn't even realize.

Yeah. He just says. It's one of the worst apologies. I mean, it's not an apology. No. He just says, I owe you one. And then she, it's sad because she doesn't require him to give it like she's yeah i wish she had put her foot down and been like okay i'm waiting for

your apology that you have not yet delivered to me which would be so daisy too to be like okay make it good go like i do think that we should keep in mind that like the thing that these women all have in common is like how horny they are. And like they're just like varying degrees of like absolutely horny. And I think that like that's at least to be factored into the ways that they settle, you know? Yeah. They're just like, I just have to get that dick and like I'll marry him. I just have to have it.

Gosh. Yeah, I know. It made me so, I don't know. I kind of, I wish I had asked my mom. Because I feel like she probably has seen this movie. But like, yeah, I don't know. It's so bizarre to think of now. Like the 80s in that regard, like truly was a different time.

Where it was like, I mean, not to say that people are not settling now. It still happens to this day. But settling culture was like way different in the late 80s it was it was more I feel I feel like it was more often than not yeah oh one factoid that I just wanted to bring up while we're on the topic of settling um Jojo the actor that played Jojo I guess it was originally written that her character was pregnant. And the actor insisted that they remove that plot point. And I thought that was so cool that she stood up for that. Because it would be a really different movie.

And her character, I just think is like... I love that she doesn't want to get married because she just doesn't want to like lose the freedom of her life. And I think that I just I like that she Yeah, she enables the character to have that. Yeah, I adore Jojo. Jamie, I think you mentioned this, but I would have liked to see more interaction between Daisy and Kat's mom mom and them and then also we get next to nothing with jojo and her family particularly her mother i think there's like not even anything but her dad's just like get out of here my daughter yeah classic my daughter and cut to the next scene but we do meet da Daisy and Kat's mother,

but we only get very small snippets of her. Although there was one scene that I did find interesting where Daisy and her mom are arguing. And it's clear that Daisy knows that her mother is disappointed in her and she resents that, but she's like not gonna stop living her life the way she wants to and but also like wants her mother to like accept that instead of like

breaking off their relationship and yeah and she says something to the effect of like yeah you're disappointed in me i swear i am stupid i'm a slut and then her mom's just like no i just want you to make something of yourself and she's like well i'm not gonna go to yale and slut. And then her mom's just like, no, I just want you to make something of yourself. And she's like, well, I'm not going to go to Yale. And she's like, and her mom's like, I'm not expecting that. Like, just, you know, do something. And I just I wish there had been, I guess, just like more scenes like that or more context behind their entire relationship. Because or even like another scene with the mom after that because that's the last thing she says she's just like i'm concerned about you and then you're like yeah and then what you know like nothing that felt like i mean not to bring up screenwriting something that um i do have a master's degree in which i of course would hate to bring up but that's the type of thing where

you need like a one two three story beat to show that arc almost where something in the beginning where we see the nature of their relationship more clearly than something in the middle where you know the conflict is kind of like at its highest point and then a third beat toward the end where we get some kind of like resolution or like understanding between them or something like that but instead we just kind of get that one in the middle and there's not enough context before or after i kind of wonder if that is a sort of thing because now especially with the context you gave us hallie that this movie was so thoroughly rewritten if that was something that was originally more present in the movie that

went away um because it does like it is it is really, like, intentionally set up. And then it just kind of goes away, then comes back, you know, like, just before the end. And then, yeah, like, the mom's journey is never made totally clear. And then it's also never resolved. You get the sense that the mom has a lot of, how I kind of saw it, is like she has a lot of pain and sees herself in Daisy and is like, that's what scares her. She's like, oh, I like how do you think I wound up like a single mom here? The options available to Daisy and Jojo seem to hover over them, just becoming their parents.

Jojo, I don't know if you guys caught this, right at the end, I had to rewind to watch it twice. They don't show you, as you mentioned, Caitlin, they don't actually introduce you to Jojo's mom or anything. But earlier in the movie, she like says like honestly like a fat phobic comment about she's just like, I don't want to like grow up and just like have a bunch of kids and get fat and drink a bunch of beer and like and just like, you know, like that's like her nightmare, you know.

And then later, like right before the final scene where they're all on the balcony, you just see there's no dialogue in it. A really quick scene of Jojo sitting down between like all these like Portuguese women who are like eating huge slices of cake and like guzzling beer. And they're like having a great time. And Jojo like sits down with them and like joins them. And like she doesn't look sad or anything. She just looks like, OK, like this she doesn't look sad or anything she just looks like okay like this is this is where I am it's like kind of sweet actually I didn't pick up on that that's really nice and I thought that was interesting I mean who doesn't want a slice

of cake and beer that truly sounds great and I would do that right now yeah yeah i i the mom stuff is it and i also think it's like very like kind of like huh like how is there not a scene with the three of them how is there not a dinner scene at their house like yeah it just seems like something that i'm like in my head i'm like that had to have existed in some version of this movie because otherwise that is like so i don't know and and I and I agree with what you're both saying too that it's like it ends up kind of coming off half baked because the the mom is in this so little but that you know cycle of poverty dynamic of like you have to make something of yourself and like you have to get out of here and like or you're gonna like

you're saying how like you're gonna end up in the same cycle that i'm in and i want my children to have better than what i had and yeah like that is all like a very normal dynamic but it just feels like it's kind of half-baked in a way that the mom ends up coming off pretty like mean uh which is which you know could also be true it seems like it is true to an extent but yeah it just felt like not the setup was there but then it just like wasn't fully explored and also it's like yeah you want that moment where like the mom is like i'm sorry and like i accept you however you want to be and also i mean i guess it's the 80s. I don't know what people are thinking back then. But I'm like, Daisy's like, 20. Like, can we not like tell her to

like, get your shit together? I'm like, she's 20. No one's gonna have their shit together at that time. I do think that the scene, the scene you just described where like, the mom, you tie that story, the mom storyline up, like like that should have been where the wedding is like instead of the wedding we should have had that conversation and like i don't know they could go on a road trip or something right because it's like that affects that affects cat as well where like cat clearly has this like i mean she does have a dream to like be a woman in stem she wants to do all this stuff but also it's a clear that she's under a lot of you know she she's a people pleaser she wants to make her mom happy she wants to like she wants to succeed for herself but she also wants to succeed to prove something and like

please her mom and her family and like that is also like whether the mom intends to be putting too much pressure on her kid or not like that is what happens in those situations i just i don't know which is why i like that we at least and i was you know again i wish we got a little more with her but i do like that um leona is present as kind of this surrogate mother who Daisy and Kat can actually talk to and actually feel like they can communicate there like that that felt like a cool touch and that beat at the end where Leona's like you're my daughters and gives her money to for Yale you're just like that's so yeah nice I really I wish we got more with Leona but I like her character it's really cool like you know she's like she is like this matriarch figure she's very like firm on what

how she wants her business to run she has like this arc of like I don't care what people say about my restaurant but then she's like but actually obviously I do because that's how restaurants work and that's her arc I love that her husband is i don't know if he has a name and he's just washing dishes the entire movie yeah she just is in charge of him yeah to the point where i'm like is that her husband we know so little about this man that i'm like that could just be an employee of hers i i didn't figure it out until the very end when he when she started saying like we and like you are like a daughter to us i'm like well i guess she is married to that guy yeah yeah i think

that leona's perspective on the town is kind of where maybe jojo ends up where like because daisy is like disparaging mystic she's like oh i just got to get out of this like stupid town and like I don't have to work here anymore and whatever and Leona's just like well we make the best pizza and like I just love that she's like not really like offended by that she's just like no it's great like I'm I make the best pizza and like I don't know like a lot of the adults like even if they are poor like seem to actually with the exception of tim who's like one of the rich characters but um seem to be enjoying their lives and like have good community like a nice community and like they're pretty happy for sure i like it yeah because it's like i don't know like yeah that that like tendency of anytime the working class is portrayed it's sort of like a

you know there a lot of people opt for the tragedy porn and really harping on the negative aspects of poverty of which there are so so many and not to like underplay that but it doesn't mean that you can't live a life with like joy and dignity and you know an inner life and yeah like everyone in this movie has that and also is like fuck being poor like i like that moment from daisy too where she's like yeah being poor fucking sucks i could admit that but that doesn't mean that you can treat me this way and like yeah that's so great i love it that reminds me of um my favorite line from the movie is when daisy is looking in her fridge at her mom's house and it's just packed full of lobster. And she's just like, fucking lot of lobster here.

And then you cut straight to like the fancy dinner where they're all eating the exact same lobster. And it's like they're wealthy in lobster, the Arujo family. Yes. Oh, goodness. One additional fuck charlie moment so this is after daisy has just fucking smoked everyone at pool and everyone's like oh my god a woman can do a pool um which i did i mean i was just like watching julie roberts that happened to julia roberts a lot in movies because the same thing happens with her that time she can fix a car and everyone's like so after charlie's all

impressed and he then proceeds to stalk her and find out where she lives and shows up at her house daisy's mom is like i guess like who the fuck are you? But whatever. And then Daisy comes home. And her mom's like, you could have told me that you were going out for dinner or whatever. And Daisy's like, I didn't know I was. So basically, Charlie just like, again, having stalked her showed up. He's just like, yeah, I'm here to take out your daughter for dinner. Like not even giving her the choice, not giving Daisy the chance to say no. Like he's just like,

we are doing this. Get in my Porsche. Ew, he's so entitled. Yeah. I hate this man so much. Yeah. He and Tim are both kind of predatory. And I feel like driving,

I don't know, just like driving the Porsche and parking it in front of her house. Like I feel like there is something really gross about him driving i don't know just like driving the porsche and parking it in front of her house like i feel like there is something really gross about him just being like i'm gonna take you out and just like flaunting his wealth and like using his the influence of that yeah yeah i wish that he it didn't it doesn't even seem inconceivable in the world of this movie that this could end by Julia Roberts being like actually fuck you like right yeah okay perfect perfect world she would have said actually fuck

you because he's just he just sucks the whole time he did he's not fun at one moment except mate unless he's good at sex which I guess it seems like she enjoys having sex with him but outside of that I'm like what is your point we have to talk about their sex scene in that wait in another haunted mansion like both sisters yes you know all the power is off both sisters fuck predatory men in haunted mansions at different points actually I feel like at around the similar point in the movie but oh my god I forgot about this yeah like the scene where daisy like daisy is taken by charlie to his family's like off-season yeah like summer home or whatever this where like it's dark the electricity is shut off so they like start a fire and like there's like white sheets over

all the furniture so it really does seem like a haunted mansion and then daisy does such a wild move which is that like he like he like looks away for a second and then he turns back and she's gone and her like stiletto heel is like balanced on the edge of a table or something and then she's like charlie follow the breadcrumbs and then like he like somehow in the course of moments Julia Roberts takes off all her clothes navigates a darkened home that she's never been in before and finds her way to like an upstairs bedroom and then puts on Charlie's dad's shirt which is like yes all of that is like a so like how did she do that she must have been running she's got that skills I wish I had thought that through because I was like that is supernatural that she could do that

yeah my husband pointed that out when we watched it last night because I mean that didn't I don't think that had occurred to me either and I've seen it so many times it's just like wait a second first of all that's like a really really bold move but like just how did she do it with like the physics of it like right the logistics don't quite add up and then he's like i'm gonna fuck you in my dad's shirt in my dad's bed yeah she really is like enacting power move after power move yeah it's like yeah i wish i get I just wish I think for each of these three women, I would have liked to see a different resolution. My pitch for Daisy would be that she does not take Charlie back. He might come to apologize.

Maybe he even does apologize. But I think that she should be like, nope, what's done is done. I don't know even why I dated you in the first place. Goodbye. My pitch for Jojo is that if she wants to stay with Bill, fine, but I wish she hadn't agreed to marry him so soon, especially after the entire movie is her being like, I'm not ready yet and I won't be for a while. So for her to like marry him after all so soon I just was like well that's inconsistent with everything we learned about Jojo and then I would have liked for for Kat maybe we like see her go off to college or like we see like one kind of final beat where

she's I don't know just some something else because she just gets such a- I want her to tape Tim's check back together and go to the bank. That's where I want it to end. She's like, I've had a change of heart. I don't care. Yes. I want her to dump a barrel of fish in Tim's car. Into his car.

Yeah. Yeah. I think interesting things were explored with each of those romantic relationships, but I wish they had resolved differently yeah in general i'm on board with that yeah definitely um does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie that was it for me yeah it does pass the bechdel test because women are talking about pizza they're talking about lobsters they're talking about trucks talking about the

stars astronomy how they view each other their their futures their hopes their dreams they do talk about men a lot because again there is a lot of real estate in the story dedicated to their romantic subplots with men so you know lots of hetero people lots of white people and it's white people it's white people city which you know might be representative of what mystic is actually like i don't remember from when i went there in third grade or whatever but yeah you know it's it's pretty standard romantic dramedy type fair yeah Yeah, of this era for sure. Of this era especially. So I guess as far as our nipple scale,

zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism as it applies to the movie, I think I would give this maybe a three or maybe just shy of a three, maybe like a 2.75 kind of thing. Or maybe even that's too generous. I panic every time I have to rate a movie. I'm going to do a three. Okay.

I'm going to go down just a bit to a 2.75. Wow. Okay. Jamie. Bitchy. Well, I'm keeping my secret pizza recipe from you and i'm going lower in the rating than you um because while i like the relationships between the women i wish they had just been given a little bit more focus especially like even we don't even get that much between in fact it was like maybe

halfway through me watching the movie the first time that much between in fact it was like maybe halfway through me watching the movie the first time that i really fully understand i was like are they all sisters are none of them sisters who is a sister to the other person like i had a hard time like figuring out the dynamics of them exactly because i feel like just not quite enough is established about their characters i love when you're like, they're all acting like sisters. Who's actually sisters? But I think it speaks to maybe we don't spend enough time with them or like focused on their relationships with each other.

Because again, so much real estate is spent on different men who all suck so like i just want better for these these women and yeah as far as like the resolutions for them it just feels like well the movie has to end in a wedding because it's a movie with romance in it so we gotta do that gotta check that box and it's like you don't though you don't have to do that yeah yeah so uh different different things like that um you want to give it a 2.75 i'll give one to jojo because i love her i'll give one to leona and i'll give my 0.75 to like a hundred gallons of dead fish getting dumped into a Porsche because I wish that would happen every day perfect uh I'm gonna do a hard throbbing three I yeah I really enjoyed this movie it certainly has its issues I wish that all the romantic plots ended differently and I

wish that there was more of a fuller picture with the mom I wish you knew I just wish you knew a little more about the inner life of each main character outside of their relationships with men and even even though I guess with with Kat and um Daisy you do have a pretty rich relationship that they have with each other as well so I don't want to like negate that yeah I'm I don't know I'm very inclined to be very nice to this movie because I like felt like bizarrely seen in it in a like a very specific way of just like really intense poor people New England friendships I was like oh yeah like that I I know those and like I really like how class is presented pretty frankly in this movie I like that the the rich people are villains I don't know they're they're just especially Daisy does all these things that

I wish I could have done when I was younger and I just like couldn't do um in terms of just like advocating for herself and speaking up and like knowing when she's being used and seeing so and then in cat I feel like I saw how a little more of how I actually was of like being very naive and not knowing how to advocate for yourself and wanting to you know impress people it's just like I wish you knew more about our main characters because they are so distinct and they have all these like really relatable recognizable traits and even though they're so different they have such a like undying loyalty to each other even when they're like saying the most horrific shit in the world to each other you know that there's

like you never have a doubt that there is like baggage but there's also so much love and i just yeah i i really was touched by it i can't wait to watch it again and i want the shirt so i'm gonna do three nipples uh there and then you know the whatever we we've we've talked through its issues and also there really should be a Portuguese actor in this anyways I'm gonna just give one nipple to each of the three main characters amazing Hallie it was really interesting to watch this movie very thoughtfully for the first time because I I think when I first watched it when I was like in my late teens early 20s the reason it took me took so long for the movie to grow on me was that I think I was just like oh haha this is like a chick flick that I'm gonna watch while I'm

like painting my nails on the weekend and like just I don't know like pass an afternoon or something and then I think I can be like I don't know kind of like pretentious with my film taste and I think that I it took several viewings to like realize how much I loved this movie and like how how special I think it is and I'm like biased in the way that it feels very like nostalgic to me and I I had never really watched it with like a feminist lens before honestly um I had watched it just like for a good time um so it was really really cool and I really appreciate like the opportunity to to like have this whole conversation about a movie that's been kind of just like in the background of my life for a long time yeah and I think I think I

would agree with giving it three nipples I think that it's definitely problematic in in so many ways and like these women deserve better I wish that we could see Amy Jones version I wish that there was like an alternate universe where she directed it and we could you know I mean not that maybe it wouldn't be this movie like I that I love so much um but yeah I think that like it's sad that that didn't get to exist um and that she was like put through a ringer in such a way so I'm gonna give my extra nipples all of them to Amy Jones because I think she really fought so hard for it seems like she's fought so hard for everything that she's made and like ended up like having an incredible career despite it but yeah like she she totally deserved to direct this movie and it seems like it was really important to

her and she fought really hard to like have that chance and she still didn't get it. But I'm grateful that we got to watch. It seems like we got to watch the movie that was at least like loyal to her original script. But yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Amy Jones. Come on the show any time. Seriously.

She's our biggest fan, obviously. So she will hear this. Come talk about beethoven oh my gosh we should cover beethoven i'm not even joking on the matriarch yeah i would love to know like the gender politics of beethoven so would i there's always like it's always those movies that you never expect that you're just like wow there's so much to talk about see the flubber episode totally um i do want to say like thinking about this movie through this like feminist lens is like for being from 1988 it could be unwatchable it could be like absolutely unwatchable and new movies like fall

prey to the exact same shit like ending with a wedding or like the characters who shouldn't stay together do like I mean spoiler alert to all the boys I've loved before but like I remember watching like the third one and the whole movie I was like she's gonna break it off with him and like go off to college and have her like amazing life of being young and single in New York. And she just like stays with him long distance. And I was so disappointed and it felt similar, but like, it's, it's like hard to blame mystic pizza for,

for ending the way it does when movies now still can't resist ending in the wedding and ending in the, like they're together forever. Like it's, I mean, it's obnoxious i hope we can get over it when are we gonna subvert that one really great movie just has to do it and then everyone will do it right there's like it's so trendy right now fine i'll write it

do it yeah please write it caitlin um well thank you so much for being here it was a treat to chat with you about mystic pizza absolute dream I'm also very hungry for pizza now. So where can people check out your work? Tell us about your book, follow you on social media, all that stuff. Yeah. So my new book is called Directions, and it is a book of advice and epiphanies and aha moments. It's kind of my like the product of my constant need to like record everything and try to save anything that's like helpful or like potentially like life-changing and I hope that's an adequate

description but this book is really special to me and I'm really proud of it. And it's the kind of thing that you can like pick up at any time and like maybe find something that will help and just help you like deal with the abject terror of existing at all and having like no idea how to do it. So that's my book. It's so beautiful. I love it so much. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And you can follow me online. My handle is Halith Bates, which is just a made up name that 2007 me thought of and now I have it forever. H-A-L-L-I-t-h Bates b-a-t-e-s so yeah follow me and uh go watch Mystic Pizza if you haven't it's a great film yes and you can follow us on social media at Bechtelcast we've got our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon, which gets you two bonus episodes every month. Maybe

Beethoven Fembers on the horizon. You never know. We don't know. Anything could happen on the Matreon. And it's $5 a month. You get access to all the back catalog. Over 80 episodes extra.

It's a real treat. And that's at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. And you can also grab our merch at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast if that's something you choose to do.

I'm not going to get our merch this week. I'm going to probably end up waiting three days then folding and buying a Mystic Pizza t-shirt that's my normal system of online shopping amazing i'm going to go order a pizza love it that's what i'm gonna do for myself um although i have this secret recipe i don't even why i should just make my own. Nothing's going to compare to that. Caitlin, when you die, will you give us the recipe? You're going to give it to us, right? I'll think about it. Wow. Leona was so much more open with her recipe. All right. Bye-bye.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. repeating itself. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles,

two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, current here episodes of rip current early and completely ad free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to i heart true crime plus only on apple podcasts