The Bechdel Cast - Ocean's Eleven with Edgar Momplaisir

Episode Date: June 7, 2018

Inspired by this week's movie, Ocean's Eleven, Jamie and Caitlin and guest Edgar Momplaisir plan an elaborate heist to steal and destroy the patriarchy! (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @edgarmomplaisir on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast hi and welcome to the bechdel cast my name is caitlin durante my name is jamie loftus and we talk about the portrayal of women in movies on our podcast that you're listening to that's right oh my gosh oh that

was a little chip and a little chip that was that was um that reminded me of your slurp noise my kissing sound um all right so anyway we talk about women in movies we determine if movies pass the bechdel test which we do more than that we do so much more than that yeah but for those who aren't in the know the bechdel test is a test that requires that a movie has two female characters in it who have names. They talk to each other and they cannot be talking about men whatsoever. Let's beta test. Okay. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. Do you like apple juice? I can take it or leave it. And that passes the Bechdel test. Wow. And what an exciting premise for a movie we'll make one day. Yeah.

I see like a six or seven sequel, a franchise, really. Fully bankrolled by Mott's. We're sellouts. Mm-hmm. That's right. Mott's, you listening? All right. So we are here with a guest, as we always are.

I usually say friend of the show, but this is kind of an enemy of the show. My personal enemy. None of the show. Of me. kind of an enemy of the show. My personal enemy. None of the show. Of me. Okay, so enemy of Jamie. Friend of me. He is a writer, a comedian, and co-host of the Culture Kings podcast that's on the HowStuffWorks network. Edgar Monplaisir.

Oingo boingo. Whoa. Coming in hot. Listen. He's coming in hot. Caitlin, thank you so much for having me, Caitlin. You're an old friend of mine. It's been so good.

You're so welcome. Jamie, I was talking to Caitlin at the time. It's fine. Thank you for just saying. Jamie and I have a long running beef because she has outdone me as a guest on the How Stuff Works podcast, the Daily Sidecast. You don't have to talk shit, Jamie. You don't have to talk shit. Wow. You don't have to talk shit.

Wow. Should I be like the referee of this? That means a new outfit. That sounds fun. Well, anyway, Edgar, we're so happy to have you here. And we are talking about Ocean's Eleven, the 2001 version directed by Steven Soderbergh. Yeah. Edgar, when did you first see this movie?

Probably when I was a kid. My dad and my uncles are big fans of the Channel Network's USA and TNT. Sure. So I would watch this movie and many other movies like it on those channels. This is a popular TNT rotation movie. Yes, yes it is.

Yes it is. So I'd watch this movie as a kid all the time. I do have a problem with this movie in that I don't know the difference between the three very well. Okay. So when watching it, I kept waiting for that Elvis scene, and it never happened because that's not in this one. And I was like, oh, this Elvis scene is going to happen at some point. Wait, which one is that in? I think it's in 12, if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, really? Because I just also rewatchwatched that and i don't remember an elvis scene it might be 13 i don't know there's a scene where there's a bunch of elvises and then they all die and then that's when bernie mack dies am i crazy yeah no that does happen i think maybe it is 13 yeah i don't think it's 12 definitely not 11 all right well the only reason why i remember that scene specifically is because there was one time this is a terrible story but I'll tell this part of the story anyways I was having sex with a person the day of my best friend's funeral we were in a hotel and that movie was playing on the tv and I think as a way to cope with the death of my best friend I became immediately more focused on

the movie and I was trying to see whether it was 11, 12, or 13, based on various clues. Interesting. I believe it was 13. I'm still not sure to this day. But probably the worst sexual experience I've ever had in my life. Yeah, you can never enjoy it. Like, you trauma bonded.

Speak for yourself, Jamie. That's true. I didn't enjoy it at all. Something very upset. Yeah, I had a really bad breakup. My boyfriend came over to be like, hey, I've been cheating on you. In the middle of a JonBenet documentary I was really excited to watch. And I was so sad.

Was she Katy Perry? Well, I'll never know how it ends. Was she Katy Perry? Wait. No, it was the really bad one that came out where they smashed a pig's head with a hammer. And they're like, this is what it would have been like. That's a very popular internet conspiracy, is that JonBenet Ramsey grew up to be Katy Perry.

What? I have never heard that before. That's a good one. You should look it up. The other good one is Avril Lavigne, that she was dead and replaced with a body double. Yeah. Oh, I have heard that one.

That's a good one. Interesting. All right, well. Anyways. Speaking of long cons. Wow. That's a good one. Interesting. All right. Well, speaking of long cons. Wow. That's a solid transition. One of your best.

So much. Jamie, what's your history with Ocean's Eleven? I know that I thought it was the big chill. It's not the big chill. It's actually a different movie. But I have seen it before. My mom made me watch it, and she was horny for various cast members and so I think we probably watched that at TNT or something I think I saw it like in middle school

or something sure I understand no particular attachment to it Don Cheadle's like Cockney accent really really inspired a sexual awakening for me really not like a good Cockney accent though right like it just sounds really fake. He's very hot in this movie. Don Cheadle hot in this movie. Don Cheadle hot all the time. Always. But his accent, I was like, is that right? I don't know. I was struggling with it.

I bought it. I have a clarification to make. Okay. It's not Ocean's Eleven. It's a different 2001 Las Vegas heist movie called 3,000 Miles to Graceland. Oh. Oh, well, that explains the Elvis's. Yeah.

Why have I seen that scene? I mean, maybe you've seen that movie. Maybe I have seen that. And it's not Bernie Mac who dies. It's Bokeem Woodbine. Oh, sure. So I would like to apologize to any Bokeem Woodbine fans who are just like, how dare he disrespect him?

I mean, and they're listening. They they're listening i get a lot of a lot of tweets well thanks for your clarification the bokeem community is gonna go fucking wild uh i saw this movie in the theater huge brag in 2001 at the time i really liked it i didn't know what this movie was about or hadn't heard of the original 1960 version. So I like had no context for it. And I just went in kind of blind. And I was like, oh, my God, this is the best movie ever. It's so cool. I wrote like a paper about it in college.

I really for the longest time really, really loved this movie. You wrote papers about so many. It's because you went to college so much. It's because I went to so many colleges, including Boston University for a master's degree in screenwriting. I hate to bring it up.

You're extremely humble about that. But yeah, I really enjoy this movie, but I haven't rewatched it in quite a few years. So I am excited to talk about it.

It's interesting. And we have, for some reason, covered a lot of movies that came out in the year 2001 on this podcast. Because every time you talk about something that happens in 2001, you have to figure out what part of 2001 it came out in. And if it was pre or post Shrek. Exactly. That is, of course, the major event of 2001.

Shrek was the last Nell of Innocence. Mm-hmm. Because that was like July, and then this came out in December, which I, you know, it's just worth saying because when you say 2001, you want a Nell.

And also it, you know, 9-11 unfortunately informed all media consumption habits forever after that. That's so interesting that it came out post-9-11 because it's a movie chock full of

explosives. Yeah, yeah. And then I was wondering that I had to stop it in the middle to be like, but it did so well. It was super successful. It was like the highest grossing film in 2001, right? Right, yeah. I wonder why this movie did so well.

I mean, it's an all-star cast. It was like tons of A-listers in this movie. One of the reasons we're doing this movie is because Ocean's 8 is coming out. And of course, you can only have eight because there's only eight actresses total. Total. In the world. So unfortunately, there aren't 11 actresses, so they can only have eight. Well, my guess is that they're planning this as a trilogy.

So they're going this as a trilogy. So they're going to do Oceans 8, 9, and 10. And then there's already 11, 12, and 13. And then they're going to bring it back around with a co-ed cast, is my guess, for 14, 15, and 16. Oh. But they're going to have to cut out so many people. I mean, I guess some of them are dead,

so they don't have to worry about that. Or they just totally recast it all together or they can just stop i'm so sick of franchises i'm tired i'm tired what they're the extended oceans 11 universe and then and then it's gonna be where do we leave off is 14 15 6 then it's going to be 17 18 and 19 comprised entirely of non-binary gender fluid gender queer people can they just make a movie like why does it have to be in it has to be ocean oh okay so we're well let's let's get into the movie but i i just have to say that everyone hates geely right but danny ocean is a worse name for a protagonist than Larry Gigli. And I will die on that hill. I couldn't, I was like, when he was like, my name's Daniel Ocean.

I was like, this is a fucking dumb name. Bad name. I disagree. I think that Larry. Do you like this movie, Caitlin, in honest? I really do. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm sorry.

I'm surprised by this. Because it's not good and you thought I had better taste? I really do. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm surprised by this. Because it's not good, and you thought I had better taste? No, no. I came in here being like, man, they're going to really dislike this movie, but then I'm surprised to see that I'm more like with Jamie being like, yo, this movie's kind of wild in some ways, and you're defending this movie. Well, here's the thing. I love a good heist movie, and this is a fun romp. This is a romp thing. I love a good heist movie. I love a good heist movie as well.

This is a fun romp. This is a romp and I love a good romp. Hey, all Caitlin's Tinder matches, take note. This woman loves a romp. She's addicted to a romp. Put it on her gravestone.

Daniel Ocean, worse name than Larry G. Lee. Sound off. Okay. Fill my mentions look Larry Geely is a fun name

it's a terrible name it's so bad in that movie it's a very bad name Larry Geely rhymes with really terrible line

okay I'll do the recap yeah let's do it so Danny Ocean best name in Hollywood best name of a character ever

Larry Geely right I'm just gonna keep mixing him up with Geely. Played by George Clooney. He's released from prison. He was there because he's a con man. He's a thief. Yeah.

He was bad, but he was handsome. He was handsome. So they're like, here, you can be in prison for four years and we'll just let you go. He's handsome. And white privilege. So he's like, I have an idea. And he gets a gang together to rob three casinos in Las Vegas. Ever heard of it? And they're all owned by

Terry Benedict. That is a great name. Hate Danny Ocean. Love Terry Benedict. I don't know. I had an issue with his name being Terry Benedict. Really? Yeah, I was just like, how'd he get that name? He sounds like a breakfast.

I love him. Give me the Terry Benedict. I wish that, okay, my two favorite character names for men. Dan Manchin, I think is a better name than Danny Ocean. Dan Manchin. And then Mike Randma. What's that from? Say it. Say it then Mike Randma. What's that from? Say it.

Say it. Mike Randma? Mike Randma. Yeah, it sounds like. My grandma. Just a fun bit. What an innocent joke, Jamie. Truly an innocent joke.

I'm going to edit that out. Okay. Wow, okay. So Danny's getting his gang together. They form a plan. They're like, we got to get past all this security. We got to get inside the vault. Then we have to get back outside the vault with all this money.

They have to hack into the mainframe. And everyone has this like certain specialty. There's 11 of them total. Get it? That's the name of the movie. Everyone's playing a few different roles in this whole heist thing. Some people have frosty tips. Others don't.

Such as Rusty Ryan, played by Brad Pitt. He and Danny are bros. They are BFFs. But he figures out that the reason that Danny Ocean is going after these three casinos and Terry Benedict is because Terry Benedict is dating Danny Ocean's ex-wife, Tess. She's fully lost in the benedict sauce she loves it she orders him for breakfast every day i'm on terry's team no i'm kidding he's he's bad he's real bad okay so then rusty's like danny what are you doing bros before hoes and danny's

like no this isn't gonna affect the plan and then they so they do the heist there's like some twists and turns mostly everything goes according to plan and they get the money and then at the end tess basically learns that terry benedict is a capitalist who loves capitalism owner and bad capitalist come on he loves his money more than he loves women so tess leaves him to go back to danny and then they all live happily ever after it's complicated because i love money more than men so in that way i can connect with terry benedict's point of view yeah Yeah, you're, yeah. I'm a Benedict apologist. So not surprisingly, there is only one female character in this movie. The entire movie.

I made a list of all the women with speaking roles, and I think it's only four of them that we see on screen, and then a couple disembodied female voices at the very beginning and a lot of disembodied female body parts yes that are not given voices and i would with some exceptions probably extend this criticism to like most movies that take place in las vegas of like using women as set dressing in a major way like There's literally the first big card game in this movie. You can just see legs in a window, but just legs. One woman is allowed to be playing cards, but she can't say much. She doesn't get any clicks.

I don't know if we ever learn her name. I think her name is Holly. The woman playing cards? Yeah. Oh, no, no, no. She's a celebrity. Well, I don't mean to explain. How dare you? Oh no, no, no, she's a celebrity. Well, I don't mean to explain, but she's like a,

she's a celebrity and I think she's the lead from Charmed and the idea is that Brad Pitt's character now is teaching famous people how to play cards, so she's one of the famous people playing cards, but again, I'd put an asterisk on that famous because not a single one of the people playing cards at that table are relevant anymore. Anymore.

No. Well, the ones that I recognize. I guess Topher Grace was like the closest one. Yeah. I love how they kept calling Topher, Topher. And Josh.

Josh. Joshua Jackson. I was like, holy shit. Shane West. And then I didn't recognize any of the other people. So I didn't. She's the lead from Charmed.

Okay. Wait, is it like, uh, not Shannon Daugherty Holly Marie Combs let's see Holly Marie Combs

of one of my favorite shows Pretty Little Liars oh I think that I guess that could have but then she just yeah she like she wasn't allowed

to talk very much yeah she basically just says call over and over again because she's playing poker so yeah yeah it was her

okay it is her okay yeah she is one of the four women who we see on screen with a speaking role okay yeah she is one of the four women uh who we see on screen with a speaking role but yeah she's only in the movie for a couple scenes and then we never see her again uh another one is the is a blackjack dealer in the very beginning that danny ocean talks to for maybe 30 seconds that's frustrating too because the first like couple minutes of the

movie you see there's like like, a few female characters. One of the people interviewing Danny when he is, like, getting out of jail. His parole hearing, yeah. Yeah, like, you can tell, like, it's a female voice, but you're just looking at George Clooney the whole time. Yeah. And then the blackjack scene, you hear the voice. I think you see her once in, like, one shot, and then you just look at George Clooney the whole time. And then once Bernie Mac's on screen,

then you cut back and forth. But for the first couple women who could appear on screen, they just elect to be like, or we could just look at George Clooney. They're like, we don't need to see women. Well, the fans paid to see George Clooney, and damn it, they spent their- They didn't pay to see this blackjack dealer.

Everyone saved up their hard-earned Cloone bucks. Clooney cash. When I was hitting it hard at that gas station in 2001, I wasn't saving my money to see some blackjack dealer. I was saving my Cloone bucks for some Clooney. My Cloone bucks. Do you guys accept Cloone cards here? fresh off of that batman and robin fame oh sure yeah so that's half of the characters already women who we immediately cut away from and then don't see again another one is named charmaine uh she's a stripper who plays a very very small role in helping them get an access card that they

need to like hack into the mainframe and she's also very important because she is to my knowledge the first mother and daughter stripper pair i've ever heard of um met me and my mom go to the foxy lady in massachusetts yeah when i heard that joke i was like this is such a weird joke to be making was like say hi to my. Well, I want to talk about that conversation a little bit later. So the main female character is Tess, played by Julia Roberts. We do not see her on screen until 44 minutes into the movie. And when she does come on screen, Matt Damon's all like, this is the best part of my day.

And then we cut to Julia Roberts wearing a foxy red outfit. There's sexy music playing and she's walking down the stairs in slow motion. There's a slow fade. It's so dumb. It's very male gaze. Like, ooh, look at this foxy lady.

And then we learn that basically the plot of the movie is that danny ocean is targeting these three casinos because terry benedict stole his woman and he wants to win her back because he sees this woman as something he can steal just like any other like con that he wants to pull. Classic. I see romance in this. I don't know. I don't know.

I truly do see romance in this. This is like, it is an interesting inversion of the plot of so many movies, which is like, I'm going to trick her into loving me again. Right. Like the little, you know,

George Clooney's rubbing his little paws together. He's got a big eye. Like a raccoon. A little. A raccoon-y? A little. Oh, boy. He's like, he's gonna, like a raccoon, but.

Yes, no, I understood the plot. Sorry, let me keep explaining. He's gonna out-Benedict Terry at his own game. Right. And they're, I forgot that that was the setup of the movie. I just remembered that they were stealing stuff. I forgot that it was like, and then she'll have to marry me. Like, no she won't.

Right, right. What are you talking about? But okay, that's a big romantic, I mean. Gesture. Like, it's a big romantic gesture. It's a wide swing. It's a wide swing. You a wide swing you could look at it that way you could also look at it in that he basically views her as property because well

i mean we don't know how necessarily danny ocean feels about the situation but i think it's pretty clear that the movie is coming from a standpoint where she's essentially a plot device because it doesn't really make any sense that she is with terry benedict but it's convenient for the story because then that motivates danny ocean to pull this heist yes because we as we see in so many movies we don't necessarily understand why tess and terry benedict are together because they don't seem that compatible because Tess is not actually a fully realized, developed character. She's with him because it serves the story and it's convenient for the plot. And Tess is a really poor, like, underwritten character where a lot of, like, the tropes

they lean into. And every character in this movie is underwritten, maybe with the exception of Danny. He's the only character that you were like, okay, I think I fully get where this guy's coming from, even though I don't agree with it, but whatever. But there's just too many people in this movie in general where nine out of the 11 men blend together for me. I'm like, why would you put Matt Damon and Brad Pitt? They have the same face. It's confusing. But like Tess Ocean, classic.

We gotta give this woman a job. She's an art curator. That's so many movies. They're like, she runs, you know, because I wonder why that's like a classic, like more of like a rom-com trope of like, oh, she does business, but like girl business, you know?

Yeah. Like it's not too threatening if she runs a gallery. Yeah, I don't know if you know this, but women can only be museum curators or they work at a magazine in New York City or they own a bakery or they're a wedding planner. I love when they're journalists, but then they get a little too into the story. And then the lines blur, and there's a kiss. Those are all good jobs, guys. Those are all, listen, high-paying jobs, okay? They're good.

You're making five figures a year. It's true. They have gorgeous apartments all the time. Yeah, listen, okay? I mean, she was dating a casino mogul, you know? I mean, that's a good place to be. The Terry Benedict. They say that he's worth nearly a billion dollars.

Is that in USDs or Benedict books? That's in Clooney cash. I did want to say that I found it a little bit interesting that a trope that I hate in movies is that the person that she's seeing is a bad person. I've always hated that in movies because it's just like they broke up with you originally because you were a douche. I don't like the idea of you can steal someone away from their partner. It may be based on my own insecurities of that happening to me one day. But I was kind of rooting for it to happen because I was like, yo, this Terry Benedict dude's

kind of a douchebag. Oh, sure. I mean, we don't like him as the audience, of course. Yeah. Right. But the Terry Benedict character being so flat out cartoon villain-y, mustache twist-y evil, I feel like the reason that's done

is because Danny is not a good guy. And so- You need someone worse. Exactly. You have to make someone worse. the reason that's done is because Danny is not a good guy. And so, you know. You need someone worse. Exactly. Like you have to make someone worse. And the rules of this cinematic universe is girl has to be with someone. So hopefully the one that is more handsome and less bad.

And that's just sort of what the rules of engagement are. There's never a moment in the movie where it's like, oh, she's going gonna strike out you know yeah and open up her own museum but no yeah exactly so we find out at the end that danny has set it up so that she will have a choice but the choice is to pick between two men so it's either do you want this ex-con criminal who steals and lies about it? Or do you want this capitalist who treats you poorly and doesn't want to kiss you in public? Which, like, what was that all about? I don't. I mean, also, it's like maybe Terry Benedict is, like, shy. Maybe he's not a PDA guy.

Maybe he doesn't like PDA. In defense of Terry Benedict. Not all people like PDA make some people uncomfortable. Who knows? Basically, he is a bad guy, and it doesn't make any sense that she would be with him. But yeah, so the movie sets it up so that she is given a choice, but her only two options are to be with one guy or a different guy. And that's the thing with so many movies. They're like, oh, do you want to be with the vampire or the werewolf?

Do you want to be with the boy who bakes cakes or the boy who calls you catnip i just see good choices here i'm so stuck guys i'm truly you know i truly said edgar come on this podcast with an open mind and i did and all i'm hearing are good choices you know like i think about juno in the very very good movie juno uh where she had to pick between a high school senior or a married Jason Bateman. And that's a good place for a pregnant underage girl. Good choice, good choice.

Yeah, feminist icon Jason Bateman. Really ally to all. The bottom line is that this movie, like so many movies, if they have a female character, it's usually just one of them and the movie treats them like they're a prize to be won to borrow a phrase from aladdin where jasmine says i am not a prize to be won but she sort of is but she's sort of is like so many movies but um no time is spent developing her character if If she is on screen, she's usually like seems mean and yelly and like naggy. I wonder how much like, OK, if we did screen time, how much Julia Roberts is on screen versus how much time of this movie is used with long shots of a large pack of men walking down a hall ominously.

Like it has to be three times longer. Men walking down halls. This movie cut out all the men walking down all the halls 20 minutes long. A short film. A short film at best. But there's just, we see this pack and I was like, ooh, this is scary.

There might be more security camera footage than Julia Roberts screen time. Honestly, yeah. Absolutely. Casey Affleck, problematic Casey Affleck probably has more screen time. Right, right, right. I just, yeah.

This movie didn't, and I still love a heist movie, and I hope that, like, I hope Ocean's 8, like, knocks it out of the park and it's a fun heist movie that you don't have to feel shitty watching. Because heist movies can be so fun. But, I mean, obviously with Ocean's 11, they're adapting it from an even more problematic version that's like a rat-type movie. Has anyone seen that one from 1960? I have not. I've seen it once a long time ago. I haven't seen it, so yeah.

So basically, yeah, we've got the all female reboot coming out. Yeah. Ocean's Eleven from 2001 is already a reboot. And it's like 40 years later. But Mr. Hollywood was like, let's make an Ocean's Eleven reboot, but we're still going to keep it all men. So it took another almost 20 years later for them to be like actually what if women this time yeah frank sinatra plays danny ocean uh otherwise known as larry gilly in the original version and i don't remember how much has changed from that version to this i'm

assuming that some changes are made and hopefully this movie There's two black guys. Right. Yeah, and the first time it's just Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah. It's just so dumb because all 11 dudes, like nine of them are so criminally underwritten that literally any of them

could be women because they're not even written as like toxic male characters. They're just written as like toxic male character they're just written as like nothing right there it would be so easy to have and i'm kind of surprised that by 2001 they weren't doing like a wink wink even this is like setting the bar so low but like you can't even tokenize the woman right in this part of like there were so many opportunities where it was like oh this would be if there were one woman on the team where she would prove her competence and all the guys would be like, whoa! Love that scene when that happens.

Well, that sort of happens in Ocean's 12. I haven't, I didn't watch Ocean's 13, so I can't totally remember who the extra person is in that. Because Julia Roberts becomes 12. And yeah, so Tessa's character is introduced as one of the 12 in the sequel that movie is i would say even worse than this one because even though there are a few come out i think that was 2004 see and that to me i i would like to applaud steven soderbergh because he said you know what just wait three years and i get you guys's frustration and you guys's anger of your lack of representation but but progress does take time.

To get Julia Roberts in there three years later, I mean... That's pretty impressive. Pretty stunning turnaround for the Soderbergh. Well, there's even a couple more female characters in that one because Catherine Zeta-Jones is introduced. We meet someone's mom eventually.

Tess becomes one of the 12, one of the people pulling off the heist. But her skill, the thing that she contributes to the heist, like the only thing that she has to offer is her physical resemblance to another woman. Oh no. So it's not as though she has like this great skill,

like, you know, cause everyone like Don Cheadle's good at like explosives. There's a surveillance guy. There's a yen who does like all the like fitting into tight spaces. Which isn't that glamorous of a job. Let's a surveillance guy. There's Yen who does like all the, like fitting into tight spaces. Which isn't that glamorous of a job. Let's be honest.

It seems very claustrophobic. But they all have like a distinct specialty. Whereas, yeah, Tess is just like, oh, you look like another woman. So you're going to help us out. And also we're going to make you seem pregnant.

They make her seem, well, I haven't seen this movie in a long time yeah and then the plot of that movie is basically just one big dick measuring contest at least oceans 11 has the decency to not even really mention women one time there's it was interesting watching um and i don't even know what this indicates about the movie or this point in time at all. But, you know, you keep seeing obviously these scenes with like 11 guys talking to each other.

And I was like, oh, they're going to say something fucked up. It's going to be gross. It's going to be whatever. But they really just talk about the heist. That's all they talk about. Women don't come up in this movie really ever, which is weird because it's the thrust and the reason they're doing it is because George Clooney want him wife back. But the dialogue of the movie largely,

like you would never know women existed. Oh, that's because we don't, and I don't know if you guys have ever hung out with 10 or 11 men, but it's something I do every other day. We don't talk about women in those times. We usually are talking about heist and different casinos that we want to hit. Any group of 10 plus men.

If you see 10 or 11 men together, they're probably planning a heist or hoping that a woman who looks like another woman comes by. Right, just to help out the team. Julia Robert, real guy gal in uh oceans 12 well in oceans 11 whenever they are talking about a woman it's usually brad pitt confronting george clooney basically being like you're not doing this for tess are you or you're just doing this because you're also a capitalist and you want a bunch of money right basically like brad pitt sees her as a complication like she's poised as this thing that's potentially gonna fuck up their plan and i do agree that one should not steal from casinos for the purpose of tricking julia roberts wow hot hits point there Yeah. But I think it's like an interesting, like that's made another way that the test character is like used by the movie and then never developed.

Because it's fine for characters to have specific reasons to be in the movie. Sure. You also have to write it. And they forgot. They slipped. But the fact that like George Clo she only has two options to pick one man or a different man and not oh maybe i should leave these men all together and move to somewhere else and pursue maybe i'll go and date someone who doesn't have a silly last name or maybe i'm gonna go back to school and study art history and open up my own museum.

Anyway, basically. I don't know. Someone should tell her what's going to happen to the economy in seven years. She's basically made to look stupid at the end, where whenever she is like, oh, my God, I didn't know what you were doing, Danny. And he was like, well, I did. So it's fine. So the whole movie. I am a genius.

I am a genius. I am smart. You are my wife again. When she's on screen, she's like yelling and seems really mean. And then she makes her choice to go back with Danny. And then she's like, oh, wow, what a stupid mistake I made dating Terry Benedict. I should have been with you all along, Danny. And it's just very frustrating the way her character is i want to talk about their first their first conversation together

danny and tess because he is looking for her she does not want to see him and expresses that several times in the conversation uh this is like another it's weird there's like a bunch of rom-com tropes inside of this heist movie where the guy shows up. He is not welcome. That is stated. She says, don't sit down. Go away. Like there's a bunch of different indicators that she doesn't. Because Terry fucking Benedict is on the way.

A god among men is blazing down the hall. But she doesn't want him to be there. And him staying there is like, oh, what a, you little devil, you. It's not made to seem inappropriate. It's just like George Clooney clooning the fuck out. And it's like, no, but she actually wants him to stay, which is like implying that subtext in an underwritten female character happens all the time. And it's like super damaging and bad, for sure.

Get out of there, Clune. Get out. I just wish that Clune was 2001. Match.com was around. He's George Clooney. You can't. But listen, okay? You can't gather up your boys for just some Match.com person.

You know what I'm saying? it's true it's got to be somebody special i'm just saying he should steal absolutely steal from terry benedict wild out but like but also have an interior life and have your match.com profile and that's a separate thing don't involve your don't don't mix work and and and pledge. Have you ever had unrequited love before? No, I've only been loved by who I want all the time my whole life. I've only had unrequited love in my life. Okay. And I can tell you that there are so many things I've done that have never resulted in the woman.

And to see this work out was, you know, very, very comforting. And he sort of just continued in, like, not good behavior. No, I didn't say that. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I wanted to be very clear that I'm not telling young men out there to do anything. Actually, I'm telling most young men out there, don't do anything, please. Stay very still.

Never leave your home. Bad things happen when you do things. But I want to be like, it feels good to see a man win for once. You know what I mean? Win for once? And even better, see 11 men win. Well, Jesus. I mean, I had to contain myself while watching this movie.

It was so satisfying. Yeah. I was edging personally. I mean, there's a reason. Watching 11 men win at Yeah. I was edging personally I mean, there's a reason watching Eleven Men and Men at once. I know. What groundbreaking cinema to watch a group of men win.

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason I like this movie. I still like this movie. Are you sure? I think so. Yeah. I mean, I was entertained

while I was re-watching it. Yeah. I don't know. It's just the fact that he does this whole thing to basically prove his masculinity over another man he's like i have to like make sure that my ex-wife who doesn't love me anymore because she filed for divorce i have to prove to her that i'm more of a man than this

new man that she has chosen for whatever reason and i I'm better than him. So, I mean, it's just... And also so much of his behavior is like not, like when someone slips her a phone, terrifying behavior, and then calls and then the fact that it's one of his big romantic gesture moments is like, I've been secretly taping your new boyfriend, Terry Benedict. Like if you apply this to real life you're like holy shit this is if your ex comes out of the woodwork to be like actually your new boyfriend's not a good guy i know because i've been secretly surveilling him for weeks and then i would ask you jamie

and caitlin what would you propose us to do what would you propose what would you say that he danny ocean should approach tess and say hey look i've done really bad things in the past i've been a jerk i manipulated you i lied to you and i'm sorry i'm not expecting anything in return for this apology i'm just saying that is that what you're proposing he should do right that sounds silly it sounds dumb because i mean that sounds like a lot of work and if she says if she is open to the idea of maybe rekindling a thing like a romance, there probably doesn't need to be a huge, grand gesture. Maybe he just needs to pay attention to her and cater to her emotional needs. Well, I'd counter that, Caitlin, by saying every piece of media I've seen since I was born tells me otherwise.

Then you're right. You should do what media tells you to do because it's always right. I don't... I mean, and then part of the reason she didn't want to be with him is because he went to jail for stealing. Stealing and then lied about it. He lied to her. Right.

And then he wins her back by, once again, stealing and lying to her. And then it's like, but this time, nothing's exactly the only difference is he does not get fully caught like it he pulls it off that's the only difference we all know that you things are only bad when you get caught when you get well that is true there but the the the lesson there of like no women want you to keep doing exactly what you were doing, but just be the best at doing it. And it's like the terrible behavior that caused her to, you know, he went to jail and then I don't know if they broke up before he went to jail or if they broke up because he went to jail.

I don't know if that's explicitly stated. He says that he received the divorce papers the last day he was inside. Oh, OK. So they were technically married for a while for the most of the time he was in jail, which I think we're led to believe is a few years. Right. And it sounds like she wasn't like visiting him. Right. But like just setting that precedent of like do the exact same thing. But as long as you get away with it, she'll love you.

Like it. Yeah. It's a dangerous message to send. It rules. Yes. I'm in love with it. She'll love you. Like it's. Yeah. It's a dangerous message to send. It rules. Yes. I'm in love with criminals. Does anyone have any other final thoughts about the movie? It's weird.

There's really just tests to talk about. This movie largely ignores women in a way that's so blatant. I find it almost adorable where it's like we've got 11 men in every scene and women don't exist like it's just very very heisty hive mind I think this movie could have done with more hacking sequences I would have loved to see more hallway walks oh yeah I would have loved to see more emotional repression and i think alfred molina would have been a great terry benedict oh sure see i think there should have been more uh danny ocean standing in front of trump plaza i thought they also should have cast you know

between like casey affleck and then like matt damon saying tone deaf stuff all the time i think they really could have gotten more problematic men in there and the fact that we get shout out to Trump very pro casino pro gambling movie I loved that we were seeing women's legs but never their faces

or hear their voices and not know if it was attached to a body at all just the mystique the feminine mystique surrounding this movie really I think it's attached to a body at all. Just the mystique, the feminine mystique surrounding this movie. Really, I think it's fair to assume, and I'll say it, Ocean's Eleven, a feminist text. Definitely, 100%. One other thing I wanted to say, just in regards to Steven Soderbergh,

I do think it's interesting that he goes on to direct movies that are far more progressive and far more sex positive. He directed Magic Mike. Oh, yeah. The girlfriend experience. Yeah. direct this competent but ignoring basically everything kind of movie can go on to make better more conscious and just like generally those two i like those two movies way better in general um so uh so that's good is steven soderbergh a sex criminal or not that i have

heard but it's also hard to keep track of them all because there are so many uh one last thing that i wanted to say this is very important is that inside of the briefcase that ends up in the vault in the movie oceans 11 inside is basically four green heart of the oceans from titanic they're like little green jewels and also danny's last name is Ocean so his heart could technically be called Heart of the Ocean. I don't know how you guys don't walk away from this movie just completely swooned. It's so confusing to me.

Does it pass the Bechdel test? Not even close! I wanted to call back to that conversation that Brad Pitt is having with that character Charmaine, because the closest thing this movie has to women interacting with each other is Rusty saying to Charmaine, say hi to your mom for me. So he's encouraging her to talk to another woman.

But she responds and says, tell her yourself she'll be on stage in five minutes. So she's like like i don't want to talk to another woman that can't happen in this movie you talk to her that said i want to see that movie like that's the movie that is more interesting than the one i'm watching uh all right let's rate the movie based on our nipple scale based on its portrayal of women, zero to five nipples. I mean, gosh, it's zero nipples. Like the one woman who has any significant screen time, which is still hardly any, and who has any sort of bearing on the story

is basically just a plot device, a prize to be won. She's given no character development yeah she's really just there to serve as motivation for one of the male characters and to make him seem more complex and more sympathetic so yeah I have to give it a zero nip rating even though I do enjoy this movie I almost want to say like not applicable because women are just not in this movie or mentioned in this movie which I don't think we've ever

had a movie quite like this where usually if we give something zero nipples it's like it treats women terribly. This movie doesn't treat women like anything. They don't exist in this world. Except for Julia Roberts who is you know a prop

I would give this movie five nipples because I think that a woman could watch this movie and if there's a woman out there who's just like you know I'm in this relationship with this person that I'm not sure I like or I have this career that I'm stuck in that they can know there's a man out there who's been purposefully

keeping her in the dark and you know know, manipulating her and stuff like that. But with good intention and that it's all going to work out in the end. We're all looking for our Terry Benedict. I mean, I'm looking for my Terry Benedict and I hope that he's listening right now. Well, I'll do you one better and hope that you get a Danny Ocean. I don't want a Danny Ocean. Give me Terry. I don't know if you've been listening,

but it's not about what you want. I'm an art gallery. I'm an art curator. I'm an art. I'm an art. Please marry me. That's all. Well, Edgar, thank you so much for being here.

It was my pleasure. Where can we find you on the web? You can find me on Instagram at AwfulGram, on Twitter at Edgar Mopazier, on the Culture Kings podcast on How Stuff Works, and I got this project coming out soon called Sad Boy Edgar. Make sure to check that out. Oh, fun.

Cool. And you can follow us on social media at Bechtelcast. You can rate and review us on iTunes. You can go to our website where you can follow us on social media at Bechtelcast you can rate and review us on iTunes you can go to our website where you can buy our merch and also sign up for our Patreon and check out Oceans 8 if you want we didn't really talk about

if you want more well speaking of our Patreon if you want more of a take on female reboots and whether or not they are useful at all check out our ghostbusters episode the 2016 all-female reboot episode of that only on our matron for more discussion on the all-female reboot concept we get into it and otherwise jamie i just want you to know that I would never steal $160 million from you. Thank you so much. I aspire to be your Terry Bennett.

I will betray you. All right. Thanks for listening. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti. or wherever you get your podcasts. work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang.

We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Catherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Las Culturistas.

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