The Bechdel Cast - Overboard (1987) with Mo Fry Pasic

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

This week, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Mo Fry Pasic fall overboard, bonk their heads, and discuss Overboard (1987)! Check out Mo's podcast Worse Than You and follow it on Instagram at @worsethanyoushowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Becdo cast. Oh, no, I fell off a boat, and I can't remember who I am. Oh, no. Well, I have an issue with that story, and the issue is that the wrong gender fell off the boat. Let's make it again 30 years later for some reason and fix none of the problems. I watched that remake last night, and I have some things to say about it. Oh, I...

We'll get there. I simply was like, not even Anna Ferris could get me to watch the reboot. although I mean look look two powerful blondes have played this rancid plot and also two guys and two men okay okay welcome to the Bechtalcast this is like this is the day this is the day in which we see if we've we've been preparing for nine years for this episode truly this is the overboard episode which we will examine through an intersectional feminist lens which is what we do on this podcast using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. But what's that? Well, okay, it is pertinent today. And does it pass? Yes, but in a really hostile way.

Maybe one of my favorite hostile passes. The Bechtel test is a media matcher created by Friend of the pod, Alison Bechtel. It was originally created in the 80s as a part of her incredible comic collection, Dykes to watch out for as a one-off bit that was specifically referencing the fact that there are never queer women talking to each other. There's, uh, in cinema. It has since been sort of adapted to a more mainstream way. There's a lot of versions of the test. Our version requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue that are plot important. I actually feel like it is very relevant to today's episode. Sometimes we cover movies where the test is not quite as

applicable or relevant. Today, I feel like this is an old school Bechtelcast episode. Like, I had like stretched before. I stretched and I also ate chips before. This feels like something we should have covered within the first year of the show. You know what I mean? Well, this is one of the movies though. Correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like this is a movie we have almost covered like six times. It's been on matrion polls at different times. We've had other guests shortlisted and then we're like, we almost covered it when the reboot came out, but then no one saw the reboot. So we were like, never mind. This is a movie that we've come so close to covering many times, but I'm very glad that we wait it because I feel like we are ready. We're ready to kill this movie

once and for all. We have an incredible guest here. So let's get them in the mix. They are the host of the podcast, worse than you. It's Mo Frye Passick. Hello. Hello. Welcome. I was just doing push-ups over here. I'm ready to go.

This is what the feminist podcast was made for. I'm so excited. So, Mo, let us know what your history with this film is. I'm very curious. I'm so excited. So my history is like, this is the reason I suggest. it is because like formative. Okay.

I would describe this as one of my stuck in the players, which is my term for when you're a kid and you either go to like a cabin or it's your, you know, babysitter's basement and there's always a shitty TV and there's one VCR stuck in the player and it's just always on. And it's like what they turn on and you play. And so this was a very stuck in the player movie in my family. The VHS that you can't get out of the machine. The VCR. Exactly.

And so I've watched. it so it was so funny because in the true like audio HD Queen O way I was like I'm rewatching it I'm rewatching it and then I was like I'll rewatch it Monday night and then I realized truly knowing the Pong was Monday morning didn't rewatch it and then I was reviewing it I go oh I have it memorized I'm pretty sure I have this movie memorized it because it was like on from ages I want to say five to 11 yeah and Goldie Hawn the fashion it was one of the most fantastic things The fashion is unbelievable. The boat fashion alone is just like, I'm like, bring it back.

Maybe don't bring it, but like bring it back for me. I want it. I want it. And I'm curious, this kicks it off because I grew up in a very feminist household, you know, and we were very conscious of those things. But I didn't clock it necessarily as a kid because I was a kid who didn't think, right, you could make out with the person or get a date because, you know, you just didn't think that was for you if you're like a nerd or whatever it is and so then all movies and romantic movies were

orchestration based and so it's like it was this huge orchestration where don't worry like they'll end up together and so it was so orchestrated and ridiculous I thought of it from that perspective not from an absolutely um Stockholm syndrome kidnapping there I so I well I guess speaking to I I had not seen this movie before. I don't know why because I, I mean, it might have just been, I don't know. I feel like I've seen the vast majority of, like, I would also say I was raised in a feminist household for the time, you know, like 90s girl power. We were for it in the home. It was not, I think it was like progressive for the time, right?

But we were, but like I was absolutely still watching every problematic rom-com under the sun. this was just not one of them oh so it didn't hit you so it didn't hit me I definitely see and we'll talk about it I definitely see the things this movie is doing

to try to get around the concept like the fact that Goldie Hawn I mean first of all Goldie Hawn like this movie in my I have no nostalgia for this movie I think it just like straight up

fucking sucks but I think Goldie Hawn turns in a great performance in a terrible movie I think she genuinely does an awesome job in this movie. She's super funny. She somehow, I think, manages to pull off this, like, absurd arc for this character. Like, when she returns, I literally just got chills.

When she has to go back to the boat, the nuance in her acting. It is wild how, like, close she gets to selling you on the premise. Like, I think Goldie Hawn S-tier, I feel like she is like the reason that the movie is loved. or that's my that's my biased opinion because I love Goldie Hawn but but yeah I don't know this this movie has a dark aura for me I I haven't seen the reboot I feel bad because I'm like mo you like it I don't really have a lot of nice things to say about it but we'll talk about it don't feel bad it's very funny I think that of all of the takeaways from this movie the thing that I left being most like ah about is i found the score to this movie so grating i found it the banjo so like

and it was informed by nothing other than the scene ending like it just happened at the end of every scene where it was like rain it was like but it was like 80s banjo so it was electric it was electric banjo i hated it the score was written by alan sylvestery who for my money is most famous for the back to the score. I see. Okay. And I think also like who framed Roger Rabbit and a lot of those like more actiony. But cartoonish too. Right. Yeah, exactly. So I think he does pretty well at those those genres, but it doesn't really make sense for a rom-com. So. But is that evidence that was intentionally supposed to be camp? Maybe. It could it could be. If so, I was like every like by the end. And also this movie is so long for what it is. Okay, I feel bad. So I had never seen it before and I watched it and I was

like, wow, this is, this is the movie we've been preparing to cover because it has a lot of, it's really kind of playing the hits on tropes we've discussed over the years. So I'm excited to talk about it. Love Kurt Russell and Goldie Hahn. I believe in their love. I also think their relationship probably sold this movie at the time because everyone's like, well, that didn't actually, we know that they're happy and they're together and like their son took his first steps on the set of this movie and like they're a Hollywood couple it's charming and they're still like it's great but I don't know why as a married couple you'd be like or whatever a couple that you'd be like you know what would be a fun plot to play out together it almost feels like a sex thing that they're doing you're like oh my gosh this is their king I feel like I shouldn't be watching this they forced us to watch their kink that's incredible it is kind of a porn setup it's a porny setup hugely um um I I'm sorry. He's like non-shirt in the cedar closet. Yeah, that's porny as hell. Enemy's to lovers, a classic. He's showing his nipples, et cetera. So I think my, yeah, I think the movie's terrible, but it's definitely fun to talk about. I'm excited.

Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I didn't grow up with it either. I didn't see it until we had already started the podcast. there have been a few movies that we've gotten so many requests for that I wasn't familiar with that I was like, oh, I should probably just kind of preemptively prepare myself for this when we inevitably cover this movie someday. And this was one of those. So I probably watched it for the first time, I don't know, maybe five to seven years ago. So I don't have any nostalgia for it. However, I don't think it absolutely, well, okay, let me, I don't think it sucks. I, well, okay, I think it's, I'm the bitch of the episode. I'm no, I'm obsessed with people hitting it.

You're right to, I think. I think it, to be clear, I think it sucks from a Bechtelcast perspective, it will fare terribly. From a high concept rom-com from the 80s. No, Caitlin. Like, I think the script is not horrible. Like, again, like, it's bad from our perspective. but I don't know like I didn't I don't hate it I don't love it it's a movie that feels like a movie right I mean again the high conceptness of the premise but but but there's but there's

you're like the high concept you're referring to includes forced motherhood uh and and in boom and enslaving a woman like yeah no it's again it's a concept it's gonna get like zero nipples from me but but it got two from kurt it's true again he's too he's showing his two nipples he's two nips out whole movie and like kurt russell is awesome and hot and charming and again like these two actors are so like and obviously they have ridiculous chemistry because they have a child together i also love that the grandpa from gilmore girls is oh he's there is the villain and his lines just took me out without fail like i thought he was like he's whatever we'll talk about him because i feel like he fulfills like talk about a queer performance as

well yes a very queer-coded performance yes he's like i'm shooting skeet like he's all of his lines or like i'm rich like he's always just saying what he's doing which i think is a hilarious thing for a character to do where he's like i'm dancing and i'm rich and you're like but he sells it because it's edward herman like this movie i like i guess speaking to what you're saying kately It's like super campy and there were moments that I laughed. It's fun. I just, I just hate what's happening to the main character the whole time. And I hated Kurt Russell's character.

They're like, here's a bunch of, here's a bunch of stereotypes around poor people. In this world, they're all true. You're like, why? Why? Here's stereotypes around single fathers. In this world, they're all true. You're like this. I like the pee wee kid.

I like the pee wee kid. Well, I was going to say that kid is very Jamie. coded that was yeah it was like i felt seen in the peeway kid character i also liked that weirdly i don't know if this is like a directorial choice but the kids were acting like kids in this movie i adore that part like it was like endearing they wanted to be feral but they were actually just being kids in a house it seemed like they were big like they were like almost improvising or something which felt which feels weird in a scripted movie but it was kind of refreshing to see kids that were like just did yeah kind of seemed loose doing what they want

Yeah, yeah, true. But either way, this movie gives us so very much to talk about. I know. I have so many thoughts. I have so many theories, too. A rich text. Yes. High concept, rich text overboard. Yeah, exactly. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But a while It wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster,

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And we're back. Okay. We're back. What happens in this movie? It's actually so much. It's a lot. And you're right, Jamie. It's almost two hours long.

I firmly believe that no rom-com should be longer than like 95 minutes. I'm like, if we've got to. of gaslight this woman to death. We could take out a few rounds. We could take out a few rounds at gaslighting. There were so many rounds. It was like shockingly thorough to the point where it felt diabolical. And the only redeeming part of him is that he was owed money. What? For six hundred dollars he did this. Baby you're going to jail. Like what do you mean? He human trafficked a person. He human trafficked. And that's like kind of the tip of the iceberg somehow. Anyways, I love movie premises where you're like so there's this really like wealthy socialite and no one cares where she is

well that's even less believable in the remake really because it came out in 2018 oh yeah when there's phones and it takes place in 2018 when there was so much more technology to be able to like track a person slash like notice that you're looking at a famous person whatever i mean it's like it's fine like i'm not going to cinema since this but it is funny that she that no one is looking for her except her mother who for most of the movie only appears that you could tell they shot all of her scenes in basically a day and she just kept changing dresses yeah she's just like sitting in her fancy bed with her fancy dogs being like where's my daughter oh those dogs though that was like informative to like my whole aesthetic though that was

hugely inspiring i i like that this movie i mean it's like not really plot relevant but they just elect to go for like a very 80s like opulent aesthetic true beverly hills yeah yeah where it's it's oh i love i wish i'd watch true beverly hills instead um but but yeah like where it's like i mean and this is reference where they're like calling her tacky and you're like no she's she's beautiful she's perfect well doesn't you even call her nails tacky too and like even the language of that too was so like double entendre maybe yeah a little bit yeah i do i do like that this is one of the i mean and this is like when i read uh interviews with the writer it was like she it made sense we're like oh yeah this is clearly intentional but this movie weirdly does feel like it takes place in like

1935 because it's like that's such a good point writing a screwball comedy like it's a it's it feels like almost like a katherine hepburn kind of premise totally and now that you're thinking about like the way at the fancy events like his top like even their successitos are like a little 1930s gilded like or whatever it is and certainly the gender roles put put upon not that these gender roles didn't exist to the 80s but it just it just feels like a a script that was written in 1935 that was for some reason made in 1987 anyways in any case the plot of the movie is this we meet dean prophet played by Kurt Russell. He's a carpenter who is hired by a wealthy woman named Joanna, played by Goldie Hawn, to remodel the walk-in closet on her and her husband's yacht. And he,

of course, is played by Edward Herman, aka the grandpa from Gilmore Girls. So basically kind of the same character as he plays in Gilmore Girls. Just like a rich man. Maybe this booked him the job. It kind of, I do believe that this would be, wait, Mo did you watch Gilmore Girls? Were you Gilmore Girls. It's one of my favorites. It's the most millennial basic thing about me, and I celebrate it. I love that. But yeah, I would buy that this is the like grandpa from Gilmore Girls. The character is like Coke years. Like he was weird in the 80s. He was like skinny and running around on a boat. Who knows? We were all doing it. Right. I love that. So, So Joanna is very entitled and elitist and she's grossed out by working class people like Dean.

And she has him build shelves and shoe racks. I mean, he does a great job. He's like, he's basically a mechanical engineer. No, because she doesn't want moths. Well, he used the wrong materials. He used oak and she wanted cedar. But she did not say that she wanted cedar. So they argue.

He calls her out for being awful and entitled. She fires him and refuses to pay him the $600 for materials and labor. And she pushes Dean and all of his tools overboard. That's the name of the movie. And this is where you have to ask yourself, I would be so upset if that happened to me. Would I be upset enough to kidnap and traffic the person who had done it to me? I don't know.

I might have brought her to small claims court maybe. but that's not that's not what movies are about there is a part in that like sequence where like again Goldie Hawn is fabulous this entire sequence she looks incredible she's so funny and then there's like that weird exchange she has with her butler where she's like talking about she's talking about caviar in this really horny way for some reason I hear like I don't know why that happened but I loved that it happened where she's like needs to be round and hard and burst in and you're like yeah sure it was so like it's also like her performance of like I know how to be rich and it was like yeah like I feel like it cannot be stated it feels like plot important that her

voice is tonsi is um the husband and then the voice changed because it's very like it has to this isn't sida it's like may west it is a big choice yeah it feels like yeah she's like pulling from old hollywood yeah and it's like working even though she looks so 80 and she's acting so through, I don't know. Goldie Hawn can do anything. Goldie Hawn undefeated. My note about this scene, I kept trying to draw all of the parallels

between this movie and Titanic because, I mean, hello, movie about a rich woman and a poor man who meet on a boat and fall in love. And then at the end of the movie, they're both submerged in water, fully clothed. It's true. That's the plot of Titanic.

That's true. But there's the part at the dinner scene in Titanic where one of the boat staff says, how do you take your caviar? And then I was like, oh, what if it was that question? But then Goldie Hawn's response of caviar should be round and hard and of adequate size that should burst in your mouth at precisely the right moment. I mean.

So that was my fun little bit I was doing with myself. I really wish Billy Zane was in this movie. He would be great in this movie. He would be a good, how old was he then? He's still pretty young. I mean, he was in, he was an adult. He was in, because he was in Back to the Future. I mean, it was 10 years before Titanic.

Yeah, a young Zane. I would love a young Zane in this. I don't know what he would do, but I'd just like to have him around. Yeah, he plays the Pee-Wee-Herman kid. Anyway, so they're arguing on the boat, Joanna and Dean are. She pushes him off overboard with all of his tools. And so Dean heads home where he's a single father to four young and unruly children because his wife died three years prior. So he's got a lot on his plate right now.

I have such thoughts about the choice to kill off the wife instead of have her like abandon them bail on the family, which I feel like works way better with the story. But I think sometimes movies just like they're like, oh no, we just. got a killer like it's just Disney princess mode because I just feel like it's there's whatever it's a silly movie but I am going to that we come here to pick it to death we have to the children are clearly like first of all Kurt Russell top five most evil characters in film for doing also doing this to his children they they clearly lost their mother when they were very young And as written, they are constantly thinking about this. He, for some reason, isn't.

He is, like, not really thinking about the dead wife very much. He's mostly thinking about the $600. I think a genius psychological thriller would be this entire movie from the middle kid's perspective where it's just fuzzy enough to be like, my mom died, but that's my mom's back. Right. I'm like, say something, did they look similar? like there's no trace of this woman in their home either right like there she died i just feel like

her picture would be around i don't know i don't know everyone grieves it a different way and um yeah kurt russell is dealing with his grief by kidnapping a different woman kidnapping a woman to force her to be the mother of his children so that he can just resume his life of like going bowling and drinking beers with his friends which also yeah I mean, just speaking to, I just, I, again, like, Kurt Russell is so charming and I hate this character because it is like, I don't think, I mean, let me know if you disagree. Like, I couldn't really parse. It seems like he was doing this anyways.

Like, he was just a straight up negligent parent because the house is a pit. The kids are alone, which their principal points out, but the movie is like, and she's a bitch to do that. But what confuses me is the performance of being a slob. Like, when he comes back in, he pours alcohol. on himself to smell like he's fucked up. Right. And I'm like, aren't you fucked up, though?

That's what I mean. And so, like, does he want to be a slob? Because to like, like, what was that? You know what I mean? Like, what was that performance from him? It's one of the many confusing, like, I feel like trying to say something about class that doesn't really happen. At least I thought in this movie where like the principal comes over.

And the principal is also a very confusing character because, like, she does have. some good points, but then she's also has some terrible. And like, you just don't know what to do with her. But Kurt Russell's kind of like, I thought they were setting him up to be like, I'm doing my best, but like I'm a single parent and I'm like a working class guy and I have to work a lot to support my four kids without any help from anyone else. And so he's like, you know, she's judging him and he's upset about that. But then you see his parenting and it is pretty negligent. So negligent. And so you're just like so she was right like what is this safe i think that's their attempt though i do think their attempt like him performing like is also like telling the audience like don't worry he's safe

he's not going to rape her tonight because it's like you know what i mean that which is also like we'll get there too because we'll get there that whole thing where they're like i was like that's why i'm rooting for him because he didn't assault her but i think they really think that that is like checking the box of like see he's a good guy he's a good guy. I agree, which is where that's, we can get into it later, but that's why I think they make the Edward Herman character so evil

so that Kurt Russell seems viable by comparison. Yes. Yes. Anyways, sorry. We're still at the boat. We're so much, I know. We're still on the boat. Well, okay, so we see

Dean back at home and we see that he has a lot on his plate of being a single father and also trying to find steady work he has this friend billy who they have a dream of building a mini golf course together so we'll put a pin in that billy is so randy quaid coded also it's true and there i i did take note of like the fact that i didn't know they were going to that they were actually going to build a very expensive golf course but because this was a comedy that came out in the 80s i'm like for sure we're

going to see a very expensive golf course set piece for no reason late in the movie And sure enough, we do. There's also, we haven't, I don't think, said yet, directed by Gary Marshall, friend of the pod, a man who we love and who sometimes plagues us. I mean, because like Princess Diary is one of my favorite movies ever. He directed it, which is you can tell because Hector Elizondo is in this movie for two seconds and he's in every Gary Marshall movie.

Oh, wow. I love that. I didn't even notice him. He plays the guy on the news who starts singing, like the fisherman. No. Oh my gosh. That's young Hector Elizondo. That is him. Yeah. And I love that like one of my favorite little Hollywood anecdotes is just, I think they like randomly met and then Gary Marshall's like, I'm going to put you in all my movies. And then he did. That's like his Hitchcock signature. You don't know what you know how Hitchcock did something. Because he's like obviously Hector

Elizondo and Princess Diaries, incredible. But like he, I think like many directors, Gary Marshall made a lot of great movies and then there was a clear point of falloff in the way that there's a clear Tim Burton falloff in the way that there was a clear Robert Zemeckis has been on what do you mean welcome to Marwin is the best movie ever yeah that bomber jacket nobody can be bad like I don't know directors get old and then their movies start to suck but like but this is still kind of Gary Marshall's thriving era like the princess diaries is 15 years away and then he gets into New Year's Eve Valentine's Day kind of the way ones that we covered because I would argue about him specifically though that he didn't fall off

society fell off because he knows trope better than anybody princess diaries the beautiful the glasses off here the the circumstance orchestration love like he's hitting it that sort of seventh grade seven minutes in heaven forced together he like nails it that is very true that's what I'm talking about the high concept promise yeah the times the times did not go in in our Gary's favor. Oh, right, because he also did runaway bride, God, pretty woman. Orchestration.

Yes. Relific. Prolific. So, yeah, this is actually made before a lot of his best movies. I don't know. Puzzling. Puzzling. Anyways, just wanted to shout out Hector Elizondo before I forgot.

That's a really good job. Of course. Okay, so we get a better sense of Dean's home life. Meanwhile, on Joanna's yacht that night, she accidentally and kind of randomly falls overboard. I assumed, because I already knew the premise of this movie going in before the first time I watched it. And I was like, oh, there's going to be some big thing that gets her to fall overboard. And it's just like quite random.

So I was like, oh, okay. Anyway, she falls off the boat and washes up on shore with amnesia. She does not remember who she is. A classic trope. I mean, women be bonking their head. and forgetting everything. I mean, now that's what I call a trope. Seen most recently in Falling for Christmas,

starring Lizzie Lohan. She gets amnesia in that? Oh, my God. She gets bombed. She gets bombed. I forget. It's on a ski slope because it's a Christmas movie. If somebody in my world had amnesia,

the neuroses that would come out of it. I'm so sorry, you're never going to think. And everyone is usually just like, hey, okay. You'll remember soon. The sequence when she first gets amnesia, I think, is very funny. and it's a high for the character because she is like they're like

canonically she cannot not be a pain in the ass. It is just like her core quality. She can forget everything about herself including her government name but first and foremost she is a bitch. That is the best read. It is so right. It's so funny.

Her core. She has no memory of who she is or anything about her past. Her husband Grant sees a news report about this woman in the hospital with amnesia and he's like whoa that's my wife so he goes to pick her up but she's still as we were just saying very cruel and entitled so he sees this as his chance to escape her and so he's like just kidding I don't know her and he leaves she's also looking like

fragil rock in this I love I'm obsessed with it she is not she is not looking awesome I mean She's had a rough couple days. And this is, I think, okay, I'm like, probably not intended commentary, but, well, I guess kind of. Like, the two people she's surrounded by throughout this, including after Kurt Russell gets his little idea, is she's surrounded by a doctor and a cop, both of who do not believe her and gaslight her, like, join in on the gaslighting. And I was like, you know, but I felt like that was like a good little bit of writing. You're like, oh, yeah, truth and comedy, there it is. I don't know if they meant it, but I'm choosing to read into it. I was like, that's true.

Doctors and cops famously don't believe women about anything. And it did set up because he was so misogynistic. It did set him up to release her to a rando. It's true. It's true. Yep. So Dean also shows up at the hospital because he sees this same news story and realizes that he can get Joanna to pay off the debt she owes him

if he pretends that she is his wife and makes her take care of his house and his kids. So he goes to the hospital to be like, I'm your husband. She, of course, doesn't recognize him and refuses to believe this. Which, again, I think a lesser movie pulling a trope that we don't see in this movie necessarily, born sexy yesterday, which I feel like is a common bonk on the head trope. or like a lady gets bonked on the head or hatches out of an egg and like falls in love with the first person she needs, which does technically happen here, but she is resistant to it, which I think makes the character more credible, but also makes the premise more icky, because she is resisting it every step of the way. A lot of nose. Oh, yes. Yeah, a lot of nose.

She is not like, okay, let's try it. She sort of never does that. So true. and he tries a few little he has a few little tricks up his sleeve to try to get this to work such as he surprised kisses her he makes up a backstory about her

he's named her also he gives her a new name Annie oh when she keeps the old name at the end I was like this movie is evil evil or queer and why not both yeah why not both I like that That's important inequality.

So he's trying these things and then he's like, well, if I wasn't her husband, then how would I know about the birthmark on her ass? Because he saw a birthmark earlier when she was wearing a thong bathing suit. Which I read is like pivoted to be a different racist joke in the 2018 one, that he has like a Speedy Gonzalez tattoo or something. This is true. What? Okay. I read the premise to the reboot. And I would just, that was, because I was like, oh, let's see how much they changed it.

Maybe I'll watch it. But also, like, I need everyone to know that he's like a strawberry-shaped birthmark. And then this woman in a hospital gown, in a public waiting room, and has to go behind a TV and pull up her own gown. The doctor's like, well, legally, if you have it, you got to go. The grounds by which they are like, yep, that's proof enough for us. Let's send you off with this random man. I'm choosing to see that as incisive commentary. Yes, yes, yes, let's go with that.

But yeah, the doctor and the cop release Joanna to Dean, although her new name is Annie now. The doctor and the cop. I like, come on. And yeah, she's on TV. I like that, again, because this is like such a, I watch the women over the weekend. So I'm like in screwball comedy mode. But like they go out of the way. to show you why no one is looking for her kind of like everyone like just happens to miss

the newscast and she canonically has no friends because she's an asshole question mark so long story short no one's looking for her this is I mean the the news loves to bend over backwards for a missing white woman but not in this world well also doesn't it like come on when Howard the husband is like making out with some bimbo in the thing and he like turns off the thing it's like actively shown like we're not taking her back and even if it plays i'm going to turn it off right they're like there's three people in the world who know who this lady is and they all hate her you're like okay got it yes so dean takes joanna aka annie home to his very messy house and very rambunctious children Travis is the eldest there are twins gray and Charlie, and then the youngest is Joe, who is Mr. Pee Wee Herman. I love him. And the kids are all in on the ruse, and they are totally fine to pretend that Annie is and

always has been their mother. This is so, he is so evil for this. I'm like, that is so horrible. I hate him. I hate him. He's nasty. There's a little kid's book that I had that I don't find. this data anywhere else but it's like a legitimate book i have it on like artists and they would like make

cartoons of artists to learn about their lives and i do think it's true one of the cartoons was about salvador dolly and like maybe why he's so messed up in that his parents had a son named salvador who lived till he was nine and he passed away and then they had salvador dolly the artists we know but they treated him as if he was that son and so salvador would be like i don't want my beans i'm like you love beans you've always loved being salvador and like that's the comic they did four children um but they were like they forced him to be and it feels exactly like what it would create just absolute splitting in the brain and like psychopathy to be like that's my mom i'm we're doing a bit as kids right i'm like you're fucking your kids have forever forever yeah i kept

waiting for one of the kids to like threaten to tell but they really are i mean they're they're on board and then and then they're overboard and they're overboard it's so true Because once Goldie Hawn is gaslit enough to become mommy, and she's like hose spraying mommy, they're like, oh, like, her Russell, most evil character ever. Because he just like everyone he loves. Also, when you enter that home, do you guys watch this talk about stuck in the player? We had, I got it for free taped to a pizza box in a sleeve, but a DVD of Mr. Mom. Oh, we've covered Mr. Mom. I make a Mr. Mom reference in my recap because of the montage.

where she starts doing all of the domestic chores and she's horrible at them. Literally, yes, exactly. She is the same montage. And it's such an 80, yes, I love that you do that because it's an 80s mess house. It's the exact same kind. Ooh, yes. Yeah, like they were just like, okay, every production designer works from the same pile of garbage. And there's always like an iron and ironing board on top of something it shouldn't be.

Oh no, it's burning. Yeah. I did laugh because it reminded of me trying to cook. when she just shoves that she keeps trying to shove the chicken and like a whole carrot. I loved her for that. Oh, I just, I was like, wow, okay. The M&M is on the white bread with the peanut like a heaven. I want that right now.

Like, Golihan is so funny. It's not fair. But, okay, something that I think subverts a trope is that a woman's holding a chainsaw. Oh. And we don't know why. We don't know what her chore is that she needs to be wielding a chainsaw, but she's really bad at it. and she cuts the head off of a scarecrow, and that's feminism.

Wait, you're so right, because it was, she was doing, like, the feminine chores. And, like, what one was that? Like, yeah, she's, like, also chopping wood. I guess it's because, like, they live in the woods that I'm like, maybe this is a feminine chore in. Well, Caitlin, you're from. I'm from the woods. I was like, because does that sound fucked up to say?

You're from the woods. What do your people do? Yeah. No, that's true. What happens in the woods? Well, as a matter of fact, in addition to. my you know feminized household chores that I would have to do inside my dad would make me go out into the woods with him he would find trees that had fallen over he would bring his chains out he would cut them

up and then I had to help load the logs onto his little okay tractor wagon thing that's beautiful yeah wow so I'm kind of a lumber jack you are the woods I am woods I am Groot anyway so to get to this moment in this story she's trying to get acclimated to living in this house dean puts her in ill-fitting clothes we'll talk about all of the fat phobia surrounding that he makes her cook dinner and his plan is to have her do housework for a month to pay off her debt to him while he goes out and neglects his children and his household and drinks with his buddy billy which it seems like he planned to kind of do anyways right what's his exit strategy though if it's a month what's your exit strategy what how do you dismiss he has not thought that far ahead no and then it's it's hard for him it is so wild

what this movie asks you to empathize with just on kurt russell's charisma alone you're like even that cannot sell you on it where there he the scene where he's like i have to tell you the truth oh No, but I can't because I love you. I'm like, yeah, that's why you're keeping her prisoner because you... Yikes, yeah. Whatever. And then that night, this is the scene where he comes home. He pretends to be drunker than he is and tries to manipulate her into having sex with him.

She is like hard past. Which he says boom, boom. And she always gives it to him or she wants to die. Nasty, nasty. Yeah. And he also is like bragging to his... He and his gross friend, like, they're like, so, are you going to, are you going to rape the woman you kidnapped? And then he's like, ha, ha, maybe I will. And then he gets home and then

she rejects him and then, and then we're supposed to think, oh, he's not that bad a guy. He's made, he's not, instead of assaulting the woman he kidnapped, he's making her sleep on the couch. And making her believe that it's her fault because she has a bad back. Right. Lots of gaslighting. She has to sleep on the couch under a leak in the roof. roof and then the dogs are mauling her the whole night like i do every new year's though every single new year's i play the fantasy when it's dripping the leaking and then it turns into um the new year's song oh my god every i play that every new year's because it's like oh yeah because they're singing old langsine yes 100 and then like the the confetti comes like and she wakes up and it's

like you know i think toilet paper one of the kids and she's back there and i oh i say i love that Good grief. It's a good sequence. Anyway, so the next day, this is the montage where Dean gives her a list of daily chores. So we see her cleaning up the house, fixing meals, washing clothes, doing yard work, using the chainsaw for some reason. And she's batted everything. And this is the like Mr. Mom parallel montage. And Annie hates this life. And she's still very skeptical that this is her home and her family. I was impressed. how many attempts that she makes to get the truth where she's like, well, where are pictures? And then he has to have his friend do like proto Photoshop where it's like just

her, not her mugshot but her like just, like they're just manipulating the same picture. It's so ridiculous. But I did appreciate that like she was at least asking questions which I feel like, I don't know. The bar is like absolutely on the floor

but I feel like a lot of movies like this you don't see the character who's bonked in the head really ask questions in a meaningful way. Well, it's also so interesting because we immediately buy into the fact that she wouldn't be mourning the fact she doesn't remember anything. Or like accepting amnesia being in a hospital,

which we all would. She literally is like, no, I know who I am. This ain't it. This ain't it. Right. She's like, the vibes are, this is not. I like, wait, what was the lane that she said that I was like, I want to start saying that when I wake up every day.

you're living a nightmare that begins at the crack of dawn. You're like, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, so she's looking for memorabilia, you know, photographs. She can't find anything. Then she has a flash of memory of Dean when he was working on her closet on the yacht, but she doesn't know exactly what it means. And he, of course, gaslights this memory out of her brain. And then this is also when he has his friend Photoshop the photos to quote, quote, prove that they have a life together. And because of this, Annie seems to accept that this must be her life. Either that or she's dissociating.

But she tries to make the best of it, doing the chores and being more playful with the kids. There's a water hose scene that I don't really understand what that was supposed to be. Hi, jinks. Now she's a mama. No, she's fun. Yeah, but it was in the kitchen. It was like, this isn't like, she plays back. I get, right.

I don't even, yeah, confusing. The kids are absolutely feral. They're eating with their hands. You're like, Kurt Russell, all-time worst father. But how many, it felt like a thousand days in one day because then we have the the poison ivy situation, but it's like the way they were trying to show us the development of a relationship, but time is also not really working there. Yes, it is pretty unclear how long she's there for, I guess.

Totally. But some amount of time passes. She goes to the school and defends her quote-unquote family when the school principal says that the children are a nuisance and that there isn't adequate parental guidance at home. Unfortunately, she is correct. But like, her argument is so roundabout that she still ends up kind of being a villain because she's like upset about it because she wants the children to perform better on standardized tests. And then Goldie Hawn is like, standardized tests are bullshit. I'm like, okay, she's right. Yeah. But like, everyone's right and everyone's wrong. This is really bizarre.

Because you're like, at the end of the day, one of the kids can't read. So, like, the principle is right. The principal is right. That, like, there's not... There's not adequate parental guidance at home, which Annie realizes is true. So she goes to Dean and she's like, you're not a good father and you need to be more active

in your son's lives. And he dismisses her at first, as he's obsessed with doing. But later, he apologizes. And they have a tender moment and he even lets her sleep in the bed and this time he takes the couch. So they're starting to vibe a question mark. He is a hero. The things presented as like, wow, he's really becoming a better man in both things like letting woman he's kidnapped sleep in a bed for the first time. Can I say like from my child

perspective it didn't feel like he's coming a good man. It feels like it felt like it felt like she's finally being normal and not ridiculous like right i mean that's probably probably what we're supposed to think right yeah yeah yeah totally it was like she's finally not being a difficult bitch she's finally accepting his love i mean exactly yeah i was trying to think of other um stockholm syndrome because it's like i feel like beauty and the beast is the one that like people attributed stockholm syndrome to but like that discourse came all the way of around because that's not really quite Stockholm syndrome. This feels kind of more cut and dry, Stockholm syndrome.

Because it's like she has like no tools really with which to fight this situation. Because it's like it is a war of like mental attrition and actual imprisonment. She has amnesia. And on top of that he's gas fighting her. And on top of that he has imprisoned her. So it's so many layers. Yeah. It's bleak.

One of the Reddit reviews I was reading this morning was like, no, it was really funny. It's good comedy. However, you know, you couldn't really make it today about a guy taking a disabled woman home was it. But I was like, oh my God. You're like, yeah, you really couldn't. I mean, but actually they kind of did. They were like, no, now a woman can do it to a man. That's such like an exact thing of being like, well, we want Anna to have, you know, Goldie's career.

So let's pick one. And it's like, oh, don't pick that one. I'm sure that this was the cheapest one to remake. But that was for a reason. Yeah. There's, I, well, I'm kind of excited to hear what you thought and like what that was like, Caitlin, because I, like, I mean, this podcast existed through the gender swapped era and like, we, we only barely made it. We only barely survived this era that just completely missed the point. It's so true. Yeah, I'll, I'll share my, my thoughts on the remake in a bit. But yeah, in the meantime, it seems as though. Dean and Annie might be developing some feelings for each other. And then the next day, Dean and his friend, Billy, are, like, working on their mini-golf course idea.

Annie is like, oh, build the Eiffel Tower. And then she speaks French. And she's like, wait, why do I know French? That's suspicious. And then she goes on to completely make his business for him. She's like an architect. More thankless labor. He does credit her at the very least.

Yeah. After he's decided, you know what, I am going to keep her prisoner forever. That's the only time he credits her is he's like, I'm going to tell her the truth. And then it doesn't work. And he's like, all right, well, I got to toss her a bone somehow. I guess I'll admit that she did all the work on this. God. I think we're past the point in the plot, though.

But the calamine lotion, when she's covering all the kids from poison, was so. intensive for it because it was like what is that they all look so sickly yeah and it was like so she's medically caring for these children but somehow was her fault for them playing and running outside like hit after it we don't need to repeat it hit hit hit it it keeps going yes and then when he almost tells her but then instead he lies to her about her own birthday oh my god like and then they do sleep together which you're like that's evil that was the one that was the one thing he wasn't doing and then he starts doing it I just talk about just a lot why are there like yeah like your segment why are there so many beats of like

ugh it's just it's it's it's freaky so she has this moment of suspicion about her french speaking and then she's suspicious for a different reason a little later when dean goes out one night and he seems to be lying about where he is but she discovers that he's moonlighting at a second job, and this is meant to, I think, imply that he is being a more responsible adult than he was before. And then they get financing to build the mini golf course, and she's helping, and it really is starting to feel like Annie is part of the family. And Dean feels bad about lying to her, and it seems like he's about to tell her the truth about how he abducted her and forced her into a life of domestic labor, but then he bails and brushes it off as, oh, I forgot your birthday. And so this is the

scene where they have sex because, you know, he takes her out for her quote unquote birthday and they have fun and they're vibing and they kiss and they have sex. And then he buys her a washing machine, what every kidnapped woman wants. Which is like as if that was her biggest issue because it hopped at her and it was messing up before and it was like, hey, I noticed something and I thought about it on my own and I got it for you. This makes it easier for you to do the labor that I'm imposing you to do. I'm a good guy.

You're welcome, babe. And at this point, she's all in. She's like, yes. Thank you. Let's have six again. This is very propaganda based then too because she was like rich, childless, having the time of her life and then it's like, no, she's really happy when she has a family and purpose in that way.

Right. Well, that's part of that. And it gets so muddled because like there is some funny class stuff going on there but it does imply that like the life of a childless woman is buying its nature hollow yeah right and you're like oh god i mean i'm glad that these these poor these kids are to be so fucked up it's because they're truly cooked oh yeah i mean peeway kid is clearly neurodivergent he needs a lot of support he's not going to get he's not going to be he's not going to get help i Like, it's lucky that they can all read by the end of the movie, thanks to the woman their father kidnapped instead of helping his kids with their homework. Meanwhile.

And we're not even off the boat yet. We're at minute seven. Okay, so Annie's, aka Joanna's mother, has been calling Joanna's real husband Grant to speak to her. her, but he keeps making excuses week after week. Husbands name Grant are like this. Oh, well, you would know, Jamie. I would know. I kept calling Grant over to be like, this is what you're like.

And people are noticing. You can, I bet you could screenshot a bunch of things where like, Grant, blah, blah, blah. And then send it to her. Grant, Grant. Yeah, meanwhile, I'm falling off a boat. I'm like, this is what it feels like. But anyway, Joanna's mother is like, let me talk to my daughter or else. I'm going to chop your dick off.

And so he turns his yacht around and heads back to where Joanna slash Annie is in Oregon. Meanwhile, Annie finds a pair of sexy underwear in Dean's truck that belonged to her from before she lost her memory because they have her real initials J.S. on them. But she doesn't know who that is. So she confronts Dean thinking they belong to another woman. And he finally takes this opportunity. to say those underwear are yours because your name is Joanna we were never married those kids are not yours and I've been tricking you this whole time and white is her

underwear in his car because the hospital had it oh those were like her personal effects dais x underwear yes checkoffs underwear yeah checkoffs panties checkoffs satin panties but okay so he lays out the truth but for some reason she does not believe him and then his friend billy covers for him to be like oh yeah those underwear belong to some other lady that i'm stooping and joanna is like sounds right to me let's carry on as we have been which is so disappointing because like this one of the things i liked about joanna's character in this like terrifying scenario is that she always asks questions and then at this point maybe it's like she's just so thoroughly gaslight that she passively accepts what she's like the most

comfortable thing that she's told which it's like if that is what's happening that's really scary that like it's just like okay so we have effectively killed this woman's spirit we have but also like imagine right like it's so funny because we're like believe it you trust it but it's like even if she was like that's not true that's not true in what world would she fathom that that is what happened right so if he said that I'd be like oh he's ill that's not good we're both sick now like it's so ridiculous they did too good a job of kidnapping her yeah you're right like that that that plan is so evil and unfathomable that who would believe that yes but yeah like to your point jamie one of the things we know about her is that she's very discerning and incredulous and where

did those qualities go but true like when you're worn down by emotional abuse and manipulation and gaslighting you might lose a sense of yourself so my god as metaphor and warning for dv this is incredible movie it's true it's true if you just forget how it ends that's what i mean it's like a dark if you look at it as a horror like and then it's go to go back like it is it is a horror movie like there i again it's like someday we'll think of something better than the buchemite But like this whole movie, if you Bouchemite has this entire movie, like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. It just doesn't, especially at the end where you're like, oh, her captor is coming back for her. And she wants to be with him.

And she's excited. And he's also brought his children. You're like, honest, he, this character should be in jail. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so the lie keeps going. and Dean professes his love for Annie,

and it seems like she loves him too. But then Annie slash Joanna's real husband shows up and seeing him jogs Joanna's memory. She remembers Grant. She remembers her old life and her riches, and she's like, wait a minute, Dean, why did you kidnap me and turn me into your wife and mother of your children?

And she's upset about this, but I would say she is not nearly, upset enough. Yeah, but this is a bunch of clunky writing that Goldie Hawn is like trying to deliver convincingly, but it's so abrupt where she's like, oh, this is so, thank you so much for letting me be a mother. Wait, why did you do that? Wait. I'm upset. I'm like, we need to be asking more questions. We need to like call a third party. It feels like they, it's what's interesting, it feels like they ran out of time, but not in an edit way. It's like, it's like during the filming, it's like with the script like shoot um can you just say it all right now like we don't have any more days to shoot

like there was no work as far as what they'd done before for set up it was just like she's struggling with that now say it like right yeah they're like oh god we're already an hour and 40 minutes into the movie we got to wrap this up but anyway so she gets in grant's limo and leaves and returns to her life of luxury with grant and her mother but now she feels out of place she wants beer instead of champagne. She's serving herself and others rather than letting the servants serve her. Skath and class commentary. Rich

woman drinking beer? But she also looks iconic in that look. She like easily gracefully goes back to her beat it in ensembles. Yeah. I think that is the one thing it seems like she missed the most was the fits. And who can blame her? Yes. And so she's she's also

hanging out with the working class crew on the yacht rather than being around the wealthy people. And she realizes that she enjoyed her life with Dean and the kids. And she decides she wants to go back. And so she has the captain turn the yacht around. But Grant is like, not on my watch. So he takes control of the boat.

Meanwhile, Dean and his kids are on their way to get Joanna slash Annie back via a coast guard boat that's trying to catch up to the yacht and dean and annie both jump overboard that's again the name of the movie and they swim to each other and they kiss kiss kiss and she's like by the way all of that money it's mine so don't worry we're still rich now get me pregnant with a little girl you virile man bro and that's the end of the movie that's the end of the well we also they also identify themselves as a great love epic because in their like connective he had told her the story of the sailor lost at sea with arturo and catarina and sometimes the sailors can hear them the lovers calling each other's names oh yeah and so then they're screaming to each other from their boats arturo

catarina and you're like come on i like we don't it's introduced way too late in the movie for this to it way too late and also he tells her about it at the birthday he made up for her oh yeah So let's take another quick break, and we will come back to discuss. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer,

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okay we're back we're back on board okay we're ready mo is there a place you would like to start where where do we begin where do we begin here i love i love the way we've been dancing throughout and in my thing is i would love from your perspective because objectively i think it's important to acknowledge that in any argument or convincing or theme or theory it is a horrible horrible horrible premise. It is objectively, even for screwball, just a actual man taking a woman and like assaulting. I think that's such an important start point where you go like, because I can absolutely get this to a place where it is an important feminist text that is teaching us and helping us in many ways. But I would say, okay, I would like to start in a space where I think of this a lot as I think

of, you know, we separate art from artists. If you watch this. creeps thing can you do this and i think certain actors in the reverse make it okay so like i think of james marsters as spike in buffy spike is pretty vile character in many ways including like assaulting buffy but because james marsters brings himself to it he's charming is so forgivable you so want him to win i think goldie hann and kurt russell their relationship is maybe the only reason we're talking about it still. Yeah. Which is kind of the premise of the Bushemi test or whatever other

name we'll decide to have for it, where if it's not an incredibly charming person or people in the cast. Or just like a when it's like the failure of calling it the Bushemi test is Steve Bouchemi is hot and we love him.

But a Steve Bouchemmy type character is doing everything Kurt Russell is doing, the movie doesn't work and it's a horror movie. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree with what you're both saying, where it's just like this movie, in spite of itself, like there were parts that I enjoyed, but it was strictly because the cast is so charming and really not anything else. There was some, and then there was like some funny screwball style one-off lines. I was shocked to learn that a woman had written this movie. This movie was written by Leslie Dixon, who I, like, I really love a lot of her work. She wrote Lindsay Lohan Freaky Friday.

She wrote Mrs. Doubtfire. I'm sorry. The whole disembodiment and identity tropes in her shit is crazy then. Her catalog is totally full of like, I'm like, what? She and her therapist must have a wild time because I noticed that too. She also wrote Hairspray 2007. Yeah. I saw that.

That was one of the only things I saw in theaters multiple times. Oh, wow. I'm not a musical theater kid. I just fucking loved it. It was really good. I really love that movie. Um, yeah, I mean, like she, she does, like, this is a premise she excels in, but this was one of her first credits. And I just, I mean, she has talked about it since. And I think that there's a lot of people who were fans of this movie when it came out that sort of defend it now. And Leslie Dixon, understandably is one of those people. But she sort of says the same thing that everyone says, where like Reese Witherspoon loved this movie as a kid. And like, Kate Hudson loves this.

this movie. I wonder why. I love my mom's movie. Like, I love my mommy. You're like, that cannot be the argument for this movie is I love my mommy. Like, I do too. And if she was an overboard, I guess I would like it. Yeah, I love my mommy test. Well, can I criticize this movie if their daughter loves their mommy?

I don't know. But, but Leslie Dixon kind of says something similar where she, she's like, oh, well, you know, like when she was interviewed during the second. second wave of this movie when the reboot came out, which she also co-wrote, that she was just like, well, you know, Kurt Russell and Goldie Holland are the most charming people in the entire world. She said, quote, this is in 2017. She said, quote, I was daunted from the get-go by the idea that the amnesia was a central plot device. I thought that was hokey, but I was in no position to complain. Someone was paying me to write a screenplay. So this also was something she was being paid to write. It was more of a contract writer thing. That's real. Which I think does sort of put it in. to context a little more, but I'm also like, no offense to Leslie Dixon, but surely we could have come up with a less scary version of this premise. Like, I've seen less scary versions of this premise. Or we could have justified it so many different ways or like not had them have sex. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I guess should we just sort of like run down the scary

thing? Because it's like we've been, whatever, we've been working around it. But like, yeah, all of the ways that Kurt Russell's character is villainous, you know, he is like, he's kidnapped this woman. He, um, you know, is functionally like making her his like domestic servant. It's fucked up. And to the point where it's referenced in dialogue as a joke in one of the most diabolical jokes I think in the, in the script where he's singing zippity doodah, zippity a. Oh, yeah. My oh my, I got a wonderful slave, which just. is first of all, what? And also just the context of how Americans use the term slave and slavery using zippity-dudah,

which is canonically by a character who is enslaved. Like, as he's also going to pretend to work, he's like singing to himself getting into his truck to then go not work. And you're like, this is the guy that we have to root for by the end. Like, why is he's so overtly villainous? in a way that I don't understand, like, he's just not sympathetic at all to the point where, I don't know. And I guess, like, at the time, that wasn't as true. But, like, watching it with today goggles.

It's just, like, yeah, he's a piece of shit, which also seems to be, like, reinforcing a lot of the tropes that were presented with him. But then there's a lot of, like, like, Gary Marshall is master of tropes. But, like, it's like he's using his powers for evil in this one a little bit. because we are presented with these familiar stock characters. I think we get like kind of a stock working class character with Kurt Russell. We also get a stock. But in this movie, all of the stereotypes based around working class people are just true of like he drinks too much. I mean, at some points, Kurt Russell is stating these himself to manipulate Goldie Hahn,

where he's saying like he's lying about her parents. He's like, oh, your mother died of alcoholism and your father's in prison. Two, like, broad stereotypes about poor people. But in the meantime, he is committing a crime the whole movie, and he's out drinking all the time. So it's not even like they're like, the movie isn't pushing back on these tropes at all. They're like, yeah, these, and in this world, these tropes are true. He's doing them. Also, just the tropes of, like, poor people are slobbish and dirty, and their house is unkempt,

and they're grifters. They're going to trick people any opportunity they get that they can't take care of their children, that they're not very smart. Like, all of these tropes are present. But then the movie also doesn't like rich people. Right. It shows the rich characters for being elitist, entitled, cruel assholes. So the movie is all over the place with class.

It just kind of hates everybody. Right. But, like, I think the movie. the best I can figure as far as I think we're meant to understand that what he is doing to Joanna slash Annie is wrong but I think the movie wants us to be like well it's okay because she's getting her comeuppance for being so horrible and entitled and rich and classist to him so she's kind of getting what she deserves. Which, as we've pointed out, like, yeah, it's one thing to, like, want to collect the money that's owed to you for the labor you did for someone.

It's another thing to abduct someone and force them into a life of domestic labor and mistreat them the whole time and have sex with them when the consent is very, very, very, very murky. I think she cannot give, she can't give consent. Like, it's great. But I also think they have such a disdain. So I think you're right in the attempt to make equal evils, this sort of double negative. But I think also at the time, if we think about the tropes of rich people in media, the 80s, like they were just inherently evil. So I do think that added more value to the scales of bad, of being equally bad. But it completely missed the fact that on an individual basis this man is evil.

and it almost didn't like it is at the threshold of camp it is so close if they had amped everything up we would have been in a magical world where it is farce and ridiculous but we didn't get there it just kept trying to ground itself so you can't necessarily authentically justify some of the caricatures because it didn't stay that way it wasn't consistent yeah i feel like edward herman is in that world but he's kind of alone there like he's playing like camp rich guy He nailed. Yeah. Oh, he killed it.

But, like, Kurt Russell is, like, giving just a grounded enough performance that, like, not everyone is doing that, like, you're saying. And, like, the kids are acting, like, more normal than I've seen kids act in a movie in a while. Like, they're just acting, like, kids. But then, like, Galdi Han, I think, starts as a camp performance. Like, when she's doing rich, she's doing camp. But, like, when she becomes Annie or she's forced to become Annie, it feels like things change I yeah well also the again the way this movie handles class is all over the place but it seems to want to it seems to have the agenda of trying to make some kind of class commentary as far as

because we see Joanna realize how classist and abusive she has been to the people who work for her once she apologizes she does I would say she does not adequately apologize but she tries. But now that she has lived life on the other side of the class divide, she has a better understanding now of labor and what it is to live in poverty. And I think the movie is trying to be like, well, this rich woman who we hated at the beginning and who got what she deserved by being human trafficked, she learned her lesson. But ultimately, what lesson will she actually end up learning because she reveals at the end of the movie

that her wealth is hers, not her husband's, so she will still live a fabulously wealthy life with Dean and these children that I guess she's going to adopt. Well, I think that like kind of neither of these people, well, I do think that she grows. She grows. I think she does grow. But like, I agree that like the fantasy ending

kind of undercuts like her newfound appreciation for labor and what poor people experience but it's also like this movie's version of poor people that also like it's like her this way it's just also muddled where it's like part of her learning about the value of labor is her accepting the misogyny she receives at home and you're like well that doesn't feel good exactly right where it's not like she's like and now like there's never and it would be a totally different thing less campy but like a totally different thing if like Kurt Russell's character, whatever. I mean, regardless, he would have kidnapped her.

But if he had been like, oh, like, you have to contribute to the house. Like, there's a division of labor. But he's not doing that. So she is appreciating that most people have to clean up their own house and cook their own food and do all this basic stuff. But he's not contributing to that. So there's also this underlying misogyny to the quote unquote lesson she learns. Well, also, I genuinely feel like this thing keeps showing its cards in its attempt to congratulate itself. Because ending with her being rich and being able to support is an attempt at a feminist switched.

Instead of going back to this podunk kids like where mom, she still gets to be glamorous and gorgeous and is empowered because it's her money. It's a girl boss. And so to me, that is an attempt, but recognizing that they're like, hey, you thought we were gross. Don't worry, we're not. and they were right you're like it doesn't quite yeah I think with that of mind like it does get there I was surprised just because the 80s were so full of like this movie does feel extra creepy even given the time which which to be fair I was looking at original reviews of the movie a lot of people felt at the time they're like this is a really creepy setup for a movie I think it probably contributed to its lack of you know financial success in spite of starring a very famous couple at the time at the time time it was not reviewed particularly well except by roger ebert who i could never pin down to save my life um that guy so weird but just truly you cannot predict what he's going to say um but you know when it came out it was like reviewed very mixed where they were like not only is this a clunky attempt to

revive the screwball comedy it's also creepier than most screwball comedies made 50 years ago which i would agree with. Yeah, I mean, but it just, it feels weirdly conservative even for the time, because when I think of like 80s movies with white girl protagonists, I'm thinking of movies like working girl. I'm thinking about movies where women having jobs are central to the plot, even if women having jobs is supposed to be this regressive, like, oh, she's too ambitious. But like you think about the shoulder pads. You're thinking about like a lot of tropes around 80s women, I feel like was especially like 80s white women was built into the idea that now women are working outside of the home and either you have like a scary version of that like fatal attraction

and like women are waiting later to have children or or a normal version like indecent proposal exactly but it's like this movie is like just going this very conservative route by like suggesting that it's okay to be like I don't know yeah the ending is so messy because you're like, okay, she's, she has her girl boss riches, but, like, she's still not going to work. Like, she doesn't have an ambition. It's heavily implied by the movie that her life is inherently empty because she doesn't have a child. Like, there's just all of these very conservative implications that feel even conservative for the 80s. For sure. And then the boggling question of, why does she want to go back to a man who, she, she,

She knows that for weeks manipulated her, lied to her, treated her badly, forced her to do all this labor. Like, what compels her to return to him? It's not justified. And then she's like, I like the name, Annie, actually. Let's keep it. You're like, no. I don't know. I don't know.

I'm realizing as we're talking, I feel like this a little bit suffers from what I call the House of Gucci effect, where every character was in a different movie. So, like, Jared Lito was. like Mario, let's go. And then, you know, you had Adam Driver doing like a for the Grande's Italian thing and Lady Gaga in a totally different film. And so it feels like some of them were like, I get it. It's totally camp. Let's go crazy. Some of them were like, this is my Oscar. Some of them were like, all right. And it's just nobody was on the same page. Yeah, it is very all over the place. Like even down to like a certain. And I'm a Gary Marshall fan that like I don't really think he killed it on this one. Because it's like even the

directorial choices feel a little bit uncertain where it's like the music even though i was just like roasting it for just being annoying but it also like you're like what version of this it's dissonant it's very dissonant with like what the movie is where you're like why are we getting this like silly this silly soundtrack when a woman has been kidnapped um yeah because it's kind of funny it's kind of funny it's so it's it's really confusing i don't even Yeah, I guess it's like, ultimately, I don't really know what the movie is trying to tell us. Not that it's like the job of a movie to teach us something, but this movie wants us to be taking something away. I just am not sure what it is.

Something about class, but it doesn't stick the landing. Yeah. To touch on the reductive way that bodies and fatness is discussed in this movie, the thing here is that Dean has his children. some dresses for Annie, but they buy ones that are too big because they're children and they don't know how adult clothing sizes work. And this becomes a hilarious bit that won't stop coming up. Which is that Dean makes up a story about how Annie used to be fat. And that's why these dresses of hers are too big for her. And Annie seems disgusted at the thought that she used

to be fat. There are jokes made about it by multiple characters. Also, this seems to happen a lot in Goldie Han movies because I'm thinking of death becomes her where her weight fluctuates and a lot of reductive jokes are made about, like, her losing and gaining weight. I also think it's just like, this is very of the times. I mean, like, not to, not to dismiss it because it is egregious. But like, I almost put the fat shaming. elements of this movie in the same category as the like, how old am I? You're 29. Like these sort of like lazy Susan of heavily recycled jokes about things that you're being told by the movie. If you are a woman, you need to feel insecure about this. It like ties into

Oprah culture. Like you're like you should feel insecure and constantly on surveillance and possibly disgusted by your own size and age. But there's also always this threat, like a woman isn't able to change for good or change or let a perversion die because you can't change your or you can't get old. But also it was that trope of like the looming, well, you might get fat again. So you can't trust that the people like you for being hot, blah, blah, blah, because you might get fat. It was like that always might come back. So then women were disgusted by having been a different weight.

And like it was just constantly a trap of your identity has to maintain this way or no one will love you. It's still something that, like, very much happens in movies now. I just feel like the tropes have, like, mutated, not really improved over the years, where now it's, like, a romantic hero will say, I don't care. Like, I don't care what you look like while clearly pointing out a woman's size, as opposed to what this movie is doing, which is just straight up, like, again, just one of Kurt Russell's very villainous qualities where he was like, oh, yeah, you used to be disgusting to me because you were fat.

And then you go through, you go back through like the layers of the, like, that this is all just a part of him gaslighting her. So she remains under his control. It's just. But wasn't the Photoshop photo too? Like she was a pregnant. She was fat in it. Like, no, so it's, so I was trying to make sense to this. Here's what I've concluded.

I thought she was supposed to be pregnant in those photos. Yes. So it's not, it's clearly a photo of his first wife who is the actual mother. to his children. You're like, did he hate this lady? Seems like it. It really did. But it's it's a photo of him and her, but instead of his, you know, now deceased wife's head, his friend Billy photoshopped Goldie Hans head onto it. And it's like, yeah, this is a photo from back when you were fat. But it's that she's pregnant. It's still a thin person when that person was pregnant. And she's just like, yep, looks. Yeah, that tracks for me. That makes sense.

And that's supposed to be a joke, but obviously it's horrible. It does not work. It's just like it's it doesn't work on so many levels that it's like where do you even begin? Because it is like this fatphobic runner that takes place throughout the movie. And also just the implications around again, I'm just like, why didn't they make the writing choice to have her be someone who ran out on them? someone who Kurt Russell being hostile towards would make sense. Yeah. Because his hostility, his ostensible hostility towards his deceased wife only goes to make his character even more despicable.

Like, it's awful. It's awful how he acts. I always like that's like such a, because it's not a storyline, it's such a forgotten part of it that I'm like, oh yeah, completely erased. She's simply gone. No one seems affected by. the absence of this this woman like RIP to this woman who

ostensibly died in her 30s like yeah that's dark no one cares no one in this movie cares except her children who don't necessarily who they kind of I think they do in their like kid wise where they're like sometimes moms leave

and I was like do they not know she died or is this like I don't know it's just all very it's all it just made me really sad for everyone and and hate Kurt Russell's character because it seems like he's recycling yeah recycling photos of her

recycling anecdotes from her life but in a way that just like never comes full circle so it just ends up coming off as like pretty mean totally there's a version of this movie where I feel like the script tries to convince you he's doing all of this because he hasn't processed

his wife's death which would be like stupid but at least would be an attempt at... It's all fanfic. Anything we do here is fanfic. Well, speaking of other versions of this movie... Yeah. Well, quick note, this movie has been remade in various other countries. I have not seen any of those remakes, but there's one from South Korea. There's one from India. There, I think, is a Russian TV series with this premise. So this...

It makes sense. It's a very, like... It's high concept. It's high concept, so it works in any culture, really. Exactly. Yeah, universal. Yeah. But I'm talking, of course, about the gender swapped remake from 2018, which I did watch last night.

And I will say... I'm sorry about that. Brave of you. Here's the thing. I liked it better than the original. That might be controversial to say. I think it addresses a lot of the issues that we're having. Not perfectly.

it doesn't necessarily correct them, but it handles them a little better. Okay. Say more. Same more. Well, especially the class issue, I would say. It's not quite so all over the place regarding class, and it doesn't lean into as many tropes about poor people. So the premise of this one, it's basically the same, except it's a working class woman, tricks a rich man with amnesia into thinking that he is her husband and father to her three children.

It stars Anaferris and Eugenio Derbes who play characters named Kate and Leonardo. Oh, do you mean Kate Winslet and Leonardo DiCaprio? That feels like also like such an AI bot of a time when it was like girls and minorities, but then it's at the same time you're like making a minority of like a victim of this white woman. It's like, it like right. Right. The optics are trash. That's why none of these gender-swapped reboots work, where you're just like, okay, so you're, like, the problem was the premise. The premise was the issue. It's not that, like, we needed a more inclusive version of this horrible premise.

No, we do need the gender-swapped, all-black cast of what women want. Yeah. That's my favorite conceit, as if we don't know what men think. Right, right. anyway they're so inscrutable to us and so mysterious but the remake follows a lot of the same beats but the the class thing is handled I think better where the Leonardo character he is not only made to do like domestic labor but also starts working as a you know working class blue collar construction worker doing the type of labor that he used to exploit as a rich person and and doing labor for a rich man who doesn't treat him or his co-workers well. So he gets an even clearer and better understanding of labor exploitation and like sees things from the other side in a way that I think the original movie attempts to do, but again, doesn't really work out.

The ending of this one's also like, and he is rich also the whole time because he inherits his yacht and it's worth $60 million. Whatever, blah, blah, blah. Was that the only way they meant? mentioned in the overboard part? Like, how do they keep the yacht? No, the yacht is still, so Anaferris, they meet because she goes onto his yacht to clean the carpets. Because she's a carpet cleaner as well as a pizza delivery person. But they still meet on a yacht. There's still a lot of people falling overboard, jumping overboard, you know. I mean, that's what gets people in the

seat is we want to see famous people off the boat. Leapin, maybe. So the movies are basically the same aside from the gender swappedness of it all. I do think I like the remake better, but not because it's good. Do you like it in contrast? Yeah, okay, do you like it in contrast to the first or is its own thing? I would say probably in contrast to the first, but I've already kind of memory hold both films, so I don't really know. But that's kind of all I had to say about these movies? Does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about?

No, I think the last thing that I this sort of dovetails into the Bechtel test of the really only two women that speak are Joanna as Annie talking to Adel Burbridge, who we get a full name for

the principal of the school of another fun performance and another character that is just all over the place where like she's ultimately wrong she has good but but you know the only communication that we really get between women in this story that is very dominated by men and white men at that and like I know we're in Oregon but this is ridiculous um but is like it is a contentious it's an argument they're like the only two women who speak in this movie are uh in an argument she also talks to her mom on the phone she does

that's true about but it i think it's mostly about her husband and her husband wanting to Gregnate her. Yeah. No, their conversation, unfortunately, does not pass the Bectal test. I mean, there might be like a one-off between them that does when she is drinking beer in front of her mom. But, like, the main conversations are, yeah, between her and her mom about her husband or the one that passes the Bectal Test is about how standardized testing is fucking children up. Which is true. And then it goes back to the kids.

Does it pass, though? because she's talking about the kids that she has been Stockholm to care for as a mother for a man. I see your point. I usually give kids a pass. Yeah. But also they are aggressively sons.

But no, but I mean like not I mean like it truly like transited probably not about the children like she's talking about the children that this man has forced her to it is like the trauma still connected to the husband like do you know what I mean? Yeah. And she does say like you and your husband are

not good at rearing children and right because she'd never be having this conversation if this man had not put her in a situation to take care of his fit kids i'm fine with saying this movie does at least spiritually it definitely does not pass it's not a feminist movie yeah so let's get to this this feels like an i don't know if you guys have this this feels like an orio pass you know how like orios are vegan oh yeah i love that i love that take that because it feels like an orio pat where technically i think it might but it doesn't but like no it doesn't yeah I love that. That's hilarious.

Yeah, let's go with that. The one true metric is the Bechtel cast nipple scale, of course, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm going to go ahead and give this zero nipples, as I foreshadowed earlier, based on everything we talked about, just the evil aura of this film. I appreciate that it's trying to talk about class, but again, doesn't really. do it well. Zero nipples, so I have no nipples to award or give out. Yeah, I'm meeting you there. Zero nipples really cannot do more. I think the Goldie Hawn performance is really fun. I love Goldie Hawn, but there's so many other Goldie Hawn movies to watch in the world. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah, zero nipples for all the reasons we discussed and probably some we forgot

about so many yeah mo what do you think i and i know i think this might subvert the metric but i think one nipple only because what it has been used for its collective reception and the sort of affirming in society that that is bad so it does feel like as a feminist sort of exercise outside of itself i'll give it one because of um its relationship to the world Fair. Hell yeah. Nice. Thank you so much for joining us for this discussion. When I say I'm so upset that I have to sked-dattle because I feel like I genuinely think we could dive in and we could teach a course. There's so much in this one movie. I know. Well, come back for the remake. Oh my God. Another time. Or another movie or another movie. You don't have to cover the re-mank.

I'll let you just know if I watch it and I might be stressed. I'm grateful you did. Well, tell us where people can follow your work, follow you online, et cetera. Yes, I would love for people to listen to my podcast, and I would love for both of you to be on called Worse Than You with Mo Fry Passick, where I talk about people's creative process and how they make things, but in a way that is not like, I get up, I write, I this. It's the more abstract efforts that holistically create us and what makes us proud as artists and our themes, et cetera.

And I think I would love, if you guys come and we'd love to talk about the themes of Leslie because this woman's themes we could go down psychologically crazy yeah yeah specifically body swap and like dissociative all disembodiment it's incredible it's incredible and don't forget she wrote limitless so shut up that wait what's limit oh it's oh do you not know about the limitless pill movie with bradley cooper and he takes cocaine or something and it makes him every ADHD year's dream this movie yeah incredible It's not a very good movie, but it has a high concept premise. It does.

It's like Lucy, where it's like, I've unlocked the extra 100% of my brain. And now I see the world. Yeah. Yeah. God. Okay. Well, I look forward to more of Las Leadsburg. I mean, genuinely consider myself a fan.

Just this one did not hit. This one did not hit. But yeah, listen to my pop books. I listen, watch, watch overboard. But I'm so happy to have been on this. thank you guys this is so fun no thank you come back anytime and you can follow us on instagram as well as our patreon aka matrion where we release two bonus episodes every single month always on an incredible genius amazing theme as well as access to the back catalog of well over 100

bonus episodes all for five dollars a month at patreon.com slash bectalcast. Absolutely. And until then, let's jump overboard. But not to Kurt Russell. To swim the other way. We're swimming the other way. Goodbye.

Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I-Heart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante, ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her?

Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic. And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did

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And like most guys, I haven't been to the doctor in way too long. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't. Every week, we're breaking down the world of men's health from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility. We'll talk science without the jargon and get your real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about. So check out the Mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your favorite shows.

On an all-new episode of IHeartRadios Las Culturistas, Emmy, Golden Globe and Tony award winner Sarah Paulson spills on red carpet hacks. We saw these pictures and you're like, what is the story with this? She gets real about the inspiration behind her roles. Oh, no, there is no end to how people will behave. And she puts host Matt Rogers and Bowen-Yag on notice. I don't think so, honey. I feel very, very triggered by this.

Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Las Culturist. and listen to the full podcast now. On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. I'm Dr. Priyankawali, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane Dibolu,

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