The Bechdel Cast - Plan B (2021) with Danielle Bezalel

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

On today's episode, special guest Danielle Bezalel joins to help us celebrate Caitlin's hysterectomy/uterectomy and to discuss the Hulu original movie Plan B (2021)! Follow Danielle and her podcast, Sex Ed with DB, on Instagram at @sexedwithdbpodcast, on TikTok at @sexedwithdb, and at the website sexedwithdb.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Attention Bechtelcast listeners, a wuga! We are doing a live show in Los Angeles plus it's being live-streamed to everywhere in the world on March 2nd 730 p.m. for the in-person show in LA. It is at Dynasty Typewriter or on your internet and it's a Bechtel cast celebration. Yes. Uh, we are super, super excited. We've wanted to do this show for a long time. We will be having a few secret guests that will be announcing a little closer to the show, but some of your favorite guests from the show are going to be there.

This is also happening on Oscars night. Uh, so it'll be at seven 30 Pacific, which will be basically right after the Oscars ends. So if you're in the area or if you want to get a live stream ticket, it's a great chance to have your Oscars post-mortem. We will be there in our substance cosplay giving our hottest spiciest takes possible. So we hope to see you there. If you're there in person, there's also exclusive merch, especially if you are a member of our matriarch. Yeah. And all proceeds from the show are going to be to, uh, victims of the LA fires, specifically families in Alta Dena.

Indeed. So grab tickets either for the in-person LA show on March 2nd or the live stream show, which if you cannot see the live stream as it's happening, if you get a live stream ticket, you'll still have access for one week after and you'll be able to watch it at your leisure for that week. And tickets for both the in-person show and the live stream are on our Linktree, Linktree slash Bechdelcast. We will see you there! See you there! Enjoy the episode! On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them?

Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin vast, start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. Do you want to drive in my mom's minivan three and a half hours away so that I can get access to important reproductive health care? Sounds like a fun romp to me.

Let's go. Let's go. Wow. Perfect intro, No notes. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using

the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Today is a special episode for me, at least. Yes. So we're talking about the movie Plan B, the one from 2021. Because as I was searching Plan B, there are so many movies with that title. Yes. This is the 2021 Plan B, I think a Hulu original film. It is which is very funny because I bundle my Hulu with my Disney Plus. And so you can see a pierced dick on Disney Plus. Pretty cool.

Pretty awesome. I have a lot of thoughts about that scene, but we'll get there. I do too. So this is the movie about teens trying to get access to the morning after pill. Now, the reason we're doing this movie, and we'll get into it in a moment,

but I, if you're listening to this I guess just when it comes out or afterward. I have just gotten a hysterectomy So I'll provide some more information about that But I wanted to cover a movie about trying to get access to reproductive health care To line up with me getting a hysterectomy. So this is the Plan B episode. And here to talk with us about the movie is a sex educator, pleasure expert, and rom-com critic. She's also the host of the podcast Sex Ed with DB. Lauren Henry Actually the perfect guest for, I mean, hello.

This podcast has a series entitled Romcom Vom, where they go under the covers with a beloved romcom, strip away its hidden toxic messages, and then rewrite the script on love and sex. Our guest is Danielle Bezalel. Welcome. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

I am absolutely thrilled to be here to talk about my favorite things, which are sex education, emergency contraception, and feminism. Yay. Let's go. Let's go. What is your relationship with this movie? I really love this film.

I saw it for the first time last year. It had come up on my kind of home page on Hulu as the algorithm knows what we like a few times. And I was just very excited to get into it, to get cracking. And I think overall it's fantastic. I really enjoy many parts of it. I think the script is very funny. I really enjoy the realisticness of high schoolers trying to figure it all out and just trying to get access to their reproductive rights that they deserve.

And we also at Sex Side with DB had on the actress, Kuhu Verma, who plays Sunny on an episode to talk about sex scenes and the way in which that minorities interact with their parents and around sexual identity and culture and it's a very rich episode. So yeah, I really enjoy this film and can't wait to talk about it today. Awesome. That's so cool that you had her on your show.

Yeah. She's very funny, very talented, an incredible singer. I don't know if you remember there's like a brief scene where she's singing in the car and I'm like, okay, hold the phone. I need to get more information on that. And then learn that she is a trained singer and I've seen some of her clips

and she is incredibly talented. No big deal. Yeah. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie? I had not seen this movie before, but I am a longtime fan of the director of this movie, Natalie Morales, who started as an actor. I believe this is her first directorial project.

I could be wrong about that. But yeah, I think she's super talented. You know, I have my thoughts on the movie, which we will talk about. But yeah, I enjoyed the movie a lot. I know that we covered, gosh, a year or two ago, Unpregnant, which came out around the same time and has a similar theme. But I think this one took the cake for me. We'll talk about it. But in general, you know, and I know Danielle, like you are the expert on this. Like even though there are parts of it that were imperfect for me, I just am glad that this genre of movie exists

and that the creative control is being put into the hands of people with uteruses and creatives with uteruses who are just starting this conversation. So yeah, I laughed, I cried. I had like, there were some moments where I was like, the comedy is getting a little too broad for me. And I would just start to check out and then something really sweet and beautiful would happen. And then I would be like, locked back. What was your history with this? Caitlin? I had not seen it before. And in fact, I picked it before

I was like, this is the movie that I'm going to have like line up with my hysterectomy experience before even watching it. Because I knew that it was tonally light, which is something that I wanted. And that it was about people with uteruses, trying to exercise autonomy over their bodies and their reproductive health. And since that has been my journey with trying to get a hysterectomy, I was like, okay, thematically similar enough because the thing about movies about hysterectomies is that they don't exist except for, okay,

I was like Googling this. There are a couple, but they're either like TV movies that you've never heard of and can't access or I think there might be a documentary about it. Anyway, I did come across a 1996 TV movie entitled Maternal Instincts in which, and I quote, a pregnant doctor's life is made hell by the deranged patient to whom she gave a hysterectomy without the patient's consent. The hyster is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that description.

Yeah. Geez, Louise. So I was like, maybe not the vibe I'm going for. So yeah, I just decided to go with Plan B. It was a movie I wanted to watch anyway. We've gotten a number of requests for it. So that's why we're covering it. But yeah, I just wanted to talk a little bit more about this experience of me trying to get a hysterectomy. One, I want to normalize a discussion like this. And two, it's been a very frustrating several decades. Also, if you don't know what a hysterectomy is, because I've discovered recently after

telling a number of people, I'm getting a hysterectomy soon, people are like, what's that? I honestly, before you started talking about it with me, I misunderstood what the procedure actually was. Because it's not, I mean, so much sex ed is so prescriptive, aggressively so, but yeah, the idea of choice barely ever comes up. For sure. So what it is, is that I am having my uterus removed. A hysterectomy also might involve removal of the ovaries. I'm hoping that that doesn't happen because that will mean that I would go into

immediate menopause. It will mean a significant shift to like my hormones and stuff like that. So I'm hoping they're able to leave my ovaries. It'll depend on how riddled with endometriosis all of those organs are. So this is why I'm having the hysterectomy. I have dealt with horrible, horrible period pain ever since I started having periods when I was 12 years old. It is probably due to endometriosis, although I don't have an official diagnosis of that because-

Because those are so hard to get. Yeah, because medical science doesn't give a shit about people with uteruses. And to be clear, we're using that phrase of people with uteruses on this episode because people will commonly talk about things like access to birth control, access to abortion, access to a hysterectomy as something that women get, but not all women were born with uteruses, not all people who have a uterus and who might be trying to get birth control or a hysterectomy or access to abortion or whatever

are women. Obviously we're not trying to reduce anyone to their body parts, more that we just want to acknowledge the pretty cis normative way that people, including a lot of medical professionals, talk about who has a uterus, who needs access to reproductive health care, all of that.

But anyway, so I have wanted to get a hysterectomy basically ever since I started having periods and I've been asking doctors about it since probably my 20s. One, because I want to eliminate this pain and two, because I famously do not want to have children and therefore do not need a uterus for any reason. So I was asking doctors about this and being like, is this an option for me? I have this horrible pain and I got nothing but push back from every doctor I talked to. They said it wasn't medically necessary for me

to have a hysterectomy despite the excruciating pain that I would describe to them. It's like, what is medically necessary then if I'm telling you that this is an absolute trash experience for me? Makes me so mad. I'm so sorry that you went through that. And for so long too, or I mean,

and I know we've talked about this and you've talked about this on the show before, but how there is like, I think a false narrative about like we've come so far and it's like, well, no, you've been having this same conversation with doctors for literally decades. And again, it's just like, there's a lack of choice. Definitely.

So I would be like, well, I think I probably have endometriosis because my mom, both of her sisters, their mother all had to have hysterectomies because of endometriosis. So I'm like, it's probably the thing with me too. But I would talk to doctors about this and they'd be like, well, who knows if you have that because it's really hard to diagnose. And then they would just leave it at that and like not try to diagnose it or anything like that. So I would get pushback about that or they would say like, well, you'll change your mind

about not wanting to have children, you know, all that classic stuff. That is until I went to a doctor recently who said that a hysterectomy is on the table for me. Again, I still don't have an official diagnosis of endometriosis. They are just believing me about the pain I experience and they're believing me about not wanting to have kids. I think it helps that I have already gotten my tubes tied, which is a procedure I had done three years ago. I think that is sufficient proof for them that I don't want to have children. So they're like, yes, let's do the hysterectomy.

So at the time of this recording, it has not happened yet. By the time you're listening to this, it will have happened on February 12th. So that's why, again, I wanted to like pick a movie to line up with the just theme of a story about a person with a uterus who is trying to and is eventually able to exercise autonomy over their reproductive health. And again, I wanted it to be tonally light and fun because I wanted to kind of reflect

how I feel about having this surgery. I know that a lot of people who get a hysterectomy do not necessarily feel the joy and validation that I feel about it, and I fully recognize that. But for me, this is a very validating thing. This is exactly what I've always wanted. So I wanted to cover a movie that's like light and cathartic. I also sorry just want to say like go you for like saying this in the public

like this can be you know similar to periods. I feel like as a sex educator I'm constantly talking to people about how they feel so much shame around their periods and around anything having to do with their reproductive health and their sexual health and I just think good on you for like being open and honest and transparent about what you're going through because I just feel like people are going through similar things and it might be an isolating experience for people and so I feel like the way that we combat stigma

and shame is through education and information. So that's what you're doing. Yay. Caitlin, Caitlin, Caitlin. Well, I, Katelyn, Katelyn. Well, I'm a hero. I'm so brave. No, but I mean, even outside of reproductive rights, you've been talking about just difficulty accessing basic procedures you need going back to the sludge era. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So for any listeners who don't know about sludge.

If you're new here. If you're new here, sludge refers to, wow, this is like six years ago now because this happened in 2019 where I had a gallbladder attack and was discovered to have quote unquote sludge in my gallbladder. Medical sludge. yes. Actually, weirdly, a scientific medical term I would come to find out. Bone chilling. And I had to have my gallbladder removed. So this is now my third pretty major surgery between gallbladder removal, tube tying, and now hysterectomy.

So I'm a seasoned veteran. But the gallbladder thing was I had like very bad insurance at the time. I had to jump through so many hoops just to get access to a very simple procedure that's like quite common. It took months and months and months of appointments and referrals and dead ends and all kinds of nonsense where what should have happened is when I went to the ER with like, you know, excruciating gallbladder pain, you know, in a country with socialized medicine, they would have been like, Oh, yeah, this is what's wrong. Here's your surgery the next day.

It's also worth mentioning even places with socialized medicine, like access can still be an issue, even if financial isn't, you know, if the problem isn't finance, sometimes it's just doctors being gender prescriptive and making assumptions about your body too. It's just... Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been having difficulty accessing health care for years now, but now my my uterus sludge, aka presumed endometriosis. Unfortunately, I feel like so many Daniel, I'm curious what your experience has this like, I only learned what endometriosis was when I was having tremendous pain myself and was trying to figure out and think I mean, I didn't have endometriosis. I had a horrific

UTI, but the urgent care I went to was not listening to me. And so I was just in the internet trenches being like, what could this be? But I'd never heard endometriosis discussed in any spaces I'd been in, I think because of the shame stigma. And I got very poor sex ed. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me based on how terrible our sex ed is, how unlikely we are to listen to women and people with uteruses in particular

when they're talking about pain. The average time it takes, and this is a huge range, to receive an accurate diagnosis of endometriosis between four and 11 years. I've heard, you know, within that it's kind of like an eight year diagnosis journey. And yeah, that is a multi-layered issue as to why that's happening. I feel like you know it's just one of the many conditions, reproductive

health conditions, that aren't talked about enough. Doctors aren't trained on how to diagnose it and doctors are also less likely to listen and pay attention to women and people with uterous pain. And so like that, you know, then you're talking about like all the other kind of intersectional feminist lenses that we're going to go through, I'm sure in this episode of like, you know, BIPOC folks are less likely to get diagnoses of reproductive chronic conditions. And so yeah, I just think it's, it's a multi layered issue here. For any listeners who don't know what endometriosis is, and Danielle, feel free to fill in any

blanks or anything that I kind of have gotten wrong, but it's basically uterine tissue, like uterine lining that would normally grow inside the uterus and then be shed during your period. Endometriosis is when that grows outside of your uterus and like attaches itself to like the exterior of the uterus or your ovaries or other like the doctor who is going through all of the possible things that might happen during my surgery. She's like yeah we find endometriosis sometimes on your appendix, so we might give you an appendectomy. We find endometriosis sometimes on your lower intestines. It might be on your fallopian tubes. It can kind of grow anywhere in that general region, and it causes intense pain, or it can, especially during

menstruation. At least that's been the case for me. Yes, totally. And the exact cause of endometriosis, unknown, right? Not enough money is going into research and scientific studies for it. I hope that is beginning to change. But yeah, the symptoms for folks can range and can be incredibly painful and can even cause folks to not even be able to get up, they're in so much pain, or they'll have to miss school or work, or it's just a really tough condition to have.

Yeah, I would have to miss school sometimes, especially when I was a teen. So for many years, I was on some form of birth control that would curb the pain, but I was like, I don't want to do that forever. Hence hysterectomy. But yeah, when I was a teenager, I would miss school routinely. If I did go to school when I was on my period, I would often like throw up because I was so sick. Nicole Cotter I feel like and then I would have to be sent home. Like it was,

it's been a horrible, painful journey. What's really... We do have to talk about the movie at some point. This is so interesting though. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially with your procedure coming up, Kaitlin, of how much of this can be generationally passed on as deal with it. Because when I was having really painful periods that luckily for me is sort of ebbed as I got older, but I had really painful periods when I was young. And I remember being told by like relatives with uteruses and school nurses with uteruses, like that's just sort of what it is. And like, do your homework. And like, and then on the other

end, I think about young boys, which is the point about this movie I wanna talk about, and I mean boys as people with penises in this case, but how, if you don't have a uterus and you're listening to this episode, keep listening, because it's so important, because we're not educated on each other's bodies, I feel like it just engenders this real,

it makes it really easy to not empathize with people experiencing that pain because it's not treated as valid societally. And it means that often your sexual partners, I've had pain that I've described to sexual partners who I don't think were not empathetic people, but they just did not know what I was talking about. And it makes it really, I don't know,

it is difficult to have that conversation when you have to educate someone while in tremendous pain. Like that shouldn't be the two-hander. Well, shall we take a break and then we'll come back and talk about the movie? Let's do it. And we're back. Thank you for indulging me as I talked about my endometriosis and uterus and

periods and pain and all of that stuff. But again, we're trying to normalize it. Yes. Anytime, please. Dude, it's important. It's you gotta. What is this show for, if not this exact purpose? True. OK, so the recap for Plan B 2021. We meet two girls, Sunny, played by Cujo Verma,

and Lupe, played by Victoria Morales. They are best friends. Both live with rather overbearing parents. Sunny with her mom, who expects her to get perfect grades and to be very modest and well behaved. And Lupe with her pastor father who doesn't like her alt slash nose ring slash black lipstick aesthetic. I wrote down, this Christian hates hot topic. That's his whole vibe. That is his vibe. It's like if there's one store this man hates, It is hot topic. The girls head to school. Sunny tells Lupe that she feels very behind sexually. Other teens at school are having sex and she still hasn't had her first kiss. But she does have a crush on a boy named Hunter, played by Michael Provost. But oh no no a mean popular girl named Megan is flirting with Hunter so Sunny is like oh no how am I supposed to compete with that?

Meanwhile Lupe has a boyfriend or what we think is a boy friend not to spoil anything but there seems to be a guy that she's been texting with named Logan, although they haven't met yet IRL. We also meet another classmate of theirs named Kyle, played by Mason Cook, who he's presented as being like, dweeby, he's a magician, he's always talking about his church group. He's a Christian magician, yeah.

Yes, so true So Chris Magish. I feel like that would be that would be a cool alter ego. I wonder if Chris Angel ever called himself that Chris Magish. He is. Yeah. Kyle's Kyle's what we call a bit of a mind freak. Oh, wow. So true. So true. OK, so we see all the teens in sex ed class where their teacher, Rachel Dratch, shows them a video that-

Perfect casting also. Great casting, yes. The video is promoting abstinence until marriage and it's particularly slut-shamy toward women. And Sunny and Hunter start pointing out the sexist double standards of the video and they're kind of vibing and then after class Lupe wingwomans for Sunny and says hey Hunter Sunny is throwing a party tonight which she isn't except now she is especially since Sunny's mom is out of town this weekend so So we cut to the

party. Eventually Hunter shows up and he and Sunny are vibing some more. Then Sunny gives herself a makeover after hearing that mean girl Megan saying some very rude things about Sunny. I really enjoyed the soundtrack to this movie. I feel like when I was hearing, it was just very early 2010s coded to me where like when fuck the pain away is playing during a makeover sequence, you're just like, yeah, this whoever this director was, was really raging in like 2011. For sure. So she's feeling more confident now, although she

sees Hunter leave with Megan and she's like wah-wah. Then she starts talking to Kyle, the magician, the Chris-magish, if you will. They have a heart-to-heart and then they have sex. And we'll go back to this scene because there's some notes to discuss here around consent, I would say, but we'll return to that. They have sex.

Kyle, feeling guilty that he just had premarital sex, runs off and Sunny kind of reunites with Lupe. They pass out on the couch and we cut to the next day. Sunny tells Lupe that she had sex. Lupe assumes that it was with Hunter. And for whatever reason, Sunny doesn't correct her. Then she goes to pee and the condom she and Kyle used falls out of her vagina. And now she's worried she might be pregnant since it was like sitting there all night.

I had this thought where it's like she she does think she might be pregnant, but she also thinks she might be pregnant, which means that maybe the better name for this movie would have been planned G. So true. But that's, you know, mistakes are made in every production. And it's really weird that that kid's name is Kyle because his name should have been Greg. He's very Greg coded.

What? Am I missing something about this Greg. He's very Greg coded. What? Am I missing something about this Greg? What's going on? So there's just a, sometimes people think that pregnancy is called a pregnancy, but it's actually called a Greg-nancy. Actually, Danielle, I'm curious,

like this actually is relevant to your line of study. I'm following, I'm following. Have you seen that? I'm okay, I'm not joking now. Have you seen that viral video from, it got at least 10 years ago that is composed of like, Yahoo answers questions? I mean, I feel like we should just send you the video, but it's a list of questions about pregnancy from mostly cis men. And it is singing it,

right? I think I know what you're talking about. There is a version. So it's been remixed into a song. I understand. So the original is just a bunch of people misspelling the word pregnant and then one of them is pregnant. So that has just caught on. Understood. And also just speaks to, I think like genuinely does speak to the lack of sex education in the US because some of the questions are like when you have sex with pregnant, does penis touch the lack of sex education in the US because some of the questions are like when you have sex with Greg Nint, does penis touch the baby hit his head? Like that kind of stuff where you're just like, oh, open the schools. It's very open the schools energy. Yeah. Forced you to sit down and learn some facts. This is this is a big Yikes Aruni. No, I'm going to have to watch that. I have seen on the other hand the song video where he's like, am I pregnant or whatever it was? Yeah

Yeah, he's based on the same thing for sure for sure. Great. Okay, so she thinks she's pregnant but she also thinks she's pregnant as you pointed out Jamie and Lupe is like well, don't sweat it. We'll just go to a pharmacy and get you a Plan B pill. They go to the pharmacy, but the pharmacist played by J. Chandra Sekhar, AKA Mr. Super Troopers, refuses. Oh, okay. I was struggling. Okay, that, yep.

Yeah, he directed at least one, maybe multiple Super Trippers movies, and he also is one of the stars of those movies. Anyway, he's the pharmacist, and he refuses to sell them the Plan B pill because they are in South Dakota, and he invokes the conscience clause saying that selling a minor a Plan B pill goes against his moral beliefs. A policy that I was not aware of. Really? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't know how I had never heard, but like I fell down a rabbit hole after that

because I mean, not surprising, but absurd. Very absurd. And so because they're both, I think 17 or they're miners, so he has the quote unquote right to invoke this clause. Nicole So he can decide what happens to their bodies. Bekkah So that means, and get ready for this poetry from yours truly, it means that their plan A to get plan B at the pharmacy doesn't work out. So their plan B is to get plan B, plan P, aka Planned Parenthood. Mm-hmm. And somehow all of this ends up being plan G, which is plan no Greg.

No Greg. I'm like, I'm with you? It's very Greg-ish. Okay, so the point is, they're trying to get to a Planned Parenthood. The nearest one is like three hours away in Rapid City, South Dakota. So they take Sunny's mom's minivan and start driving to Rapid City. There is a mishap with

like road construction and GPS reception and they get lost for a little while. They stop at a gas station and get very silly directions from a woman named Doris. Edie Patterson, if you're a Righteous Gemstones fan, she's amazing. That's who she is. I did not love that character, but I love that actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then there are these like two creepy guys who harass Sunny and Lupe. Doris comes to their rescue.

They smoke weed with her. By this time, it's pretty late and Doris points out that Planned Parenthood is probably closed for the night, but Plan B is most effective when taken in the first 24 hours of the sexual encounter, then it drops down to I think 61% efficacy within 48 hours according to the movie. So Doris suggests that they pay a visit to her drug dealer nephew, Andy, at the local playground. They go and meet up with Andy. Aka Moses Storm.

Yeah. Played by a friend of mine. Moses Storm. What? Right. Did not know he was in this movie. And this scene is another one that we'll talk about. Andy doesn't seem to have Plan B, but he's about to sell them fake IDs so that they can acquire it at a pharmacy. But he's selling the fake IDs for $300, which they don't have. And he's like, well, you can perform oral sex on me in exchange for the fake ID.

And Sunny is like, okay, I guess. And then we see a full frontal penis nudity. On Disney Plus. On Disney Plus. On Disney Plus. On Mickey's network, for God sakes. We come to this place to watch Moana. And look at what I'm looking at. This scene bugged me. We'll come back to it. We'll come back to it.

This is where the comedy was getting so broad that I felt like the point of the movie was being a little bit lost. For sure. Yeah, I really struggled with this scene and we'll go into why. But the point is, she can't go through with this transaction so she like, you know, gets away, but in so doing she accidentally rips out the penis ring that's at the tip of his penis because it gets caught in her hair. So now they have to run off, it's all this hijinks, but not before Lupe steals the pill that may or may not be Plan B, but it also might be PCP. They get into the car with Lupe

driving and they take a detour to a show that her boyfriend, Logan, is playing in a nearby town at a bowling alley. So they get there and guess who else is at the bowling alley? It's Sonny's crush Hunter. Wow. The male feminist himself has entered the bowling alley. And he's like, no, no, no, I didn't hook up with Megan at your party. I just gave her a ride home because she was really drunk. And so Hunter and Sonny dance and have a nice time. Meanwhile, Lupe approaches Logan, who we think is like the lead singer dude, but just kidding, it's the drummer who's a girl. And they finally meet and they hang out and they're vibing.

And that's played by Mahala Herald I recognized from Bodies Bodies Bodies. I thought maybe she was also in an episode of Black Mirror that I had seen. I did not confirm that but... Oh I can confirm. Great. She's great. She's also in Industry, which I think is a pretty good show. I haven't seen that yet. I enjoy it. She's in that as well. Yeah, she's popping off right now. Nice. Yeah. Good for her.

This is like, what a lovely moment, the debut of Logan. Yes, I enjoyed it very much and I enjoy their connection. They hang out, Lupe and Logan do, but Lupe has not told Sunny that she's queer, nor has Lupe come out to her very religious father. And so part of what she and Logan talk about is coming out, whether or not they have been or will be rejected by their family, you know, finding found family, that kind of thing. I love that scene. I'm sure we'll come back to it, but I just really loved it. So sweet. Mm-hmm.

Meanwhile, Sunny and Hunter are having waffles, kind of like how Donkey wants waffles in Shrek. Or a done Shrek-coded scene. Yeah. Yeah. And she tells Hunter the whole story about how she had sex with someone and now she might be pregnant or pregnant and that she's trying to get the Plan B pill and she's being really hard on herself and he's being supportive and sweet. Which I really love. Like, I love how sweet and supportive he is. The cynical demon part of me did write down, was this young man raised by a stack of glorious Steinem books?

But I feel like that is a good use of maybe slightly unrealistic. It's a good model for young people to see that this is hot. This is the person to have a crush on. From a realism aspect, I was like, oh, the one cis boy who has internalized nothing. But I kind of he was raised by a stack of books and I celebrate that for him. I like that character. He's sweet. Yes. Nice. Part of me is just like, maybe teenagers are just like that nowadays. I don't know. I don't talk to them. Maybe I'll talk to teenagers.

Nowadays, I don't know. I don't talk to them. Maybe not talk to teenagers. I personally don't know one teenager, but I kind of love that this is a model because I think that's how we Learn and how young people learn like ideally a young person has seen this film and thought like oh, that's kind of cool like and I just think that like yeah, it perpetuates the cycle of we're just consistently like putting in kind of like sludge into our, you know, our male characters. So I like the sweetness even though, yeah, maybe a touch over the top. I mean, that's, yeah, that's not like an actual that was just me having watched thousands of movies and being like, you know, but I'm not the target audience for this movie. It's for teenagers. Yeah. But it is nice to see a very sweet and supportive teen boy character and then the kiss on the lips. Yeah. Okay. Then Lupe is about to introduce Sunny to Logan and effectively come out to Sonny but then it appears as though

Logan has stolen Sonny's mom's van with Lupe's phone in it so they're freaking out. Sonny takes the pill which might be Plan B or it might be PCP and she starts yelling at Lupe to get in a fight. They eventually find the van via the Find My Friend app on Sunny's phone. It's at a party, which Lupe and Sunny have to crash to confront Logan and get the keys back. Writing-wise, I love when modern technology is used well within a teen movie,

because I feel like some writers give up and they're just like, their phone drowned. But I love, I was like, of course that is exactly what a teenager would do is like, and that would just be an automatic reaction. I thought that was great. Or it's like, I don't know how to implement modern technology in my story. So it's set in 2001. Right, which is a lot of contemporary movies where they're just like, well, this could all be solved with Google Maps. So I need to turn back time.

It's like, no, you can still fuck yourself over in the present day. We do it all the time. Every day. Yeah. Okay, so they find Logan, she's like, sorry, it was my lead singer Xander who's on drugs, he took the van. Meanwhile, the pill that Sunny took was probably speed, so she's, you know, like at an 11. There's lots of hijinks, they eventually get the keys back. Lupe and Logan say goodbye, and then Sunny and Lupe head off. In the car, Sunny's like, why didn't you tell me you're queer? And Lupe is like, I was afraid it would, you know, change the dynamic in our relationship. And Sunny's like, no, I love you forever, no matter what. Then Kyle calls Sunny and Lupe picks up the

phone and Kyle starts talking about all the regret he's feeling and the sin he committed by having premarital sex. And Lupe hears all this and she's like, what the hell? I thought Hunter is the person you had sex with. Why did you lie about that? And so they just kind of like air all of their grievances and talk about their feelings and insecurities. And then Kyle's just like, what about my feelings?

And they're like, we don't care. Anyway, it's the next morning. They arrive at the planned parenthood in Rapid City, only to discover that this location has been permanently shut down. Nicole Corsette God, this is devastating. Lauren Henry Yeah, Sunny breaks down crying. This was like, you know, her last hope kind of thing. She really wants her mom. Lupe consoles her. They drive back home.

Lupe and her father reconcile. She doesn't explicitly come out to him, but it seems like he knows or he's like getting the hint and he seems fine with it. Meanwhile at Sonny's, at first her mom reprimands Sunny for taking the car and being reckless, but Sunny explains that she was trying to get access to the morning after pill. Cut to the pharmacy in their town, Sunny's mom gets plan B for her, so yay she finally got access to the healthcare she needed. I loved, I didn't see the ending coming and I really appreciated that her mom showed up

for her. That was like really, really cool. Yeah, it was great. And then the button at the end of the movie is that Sunny's mom finds the penis ring from the drug dealer's penis. The end. Woo! Gives a little scent. Gives a little smell. And they're like, no! Put that near your face! Okay, that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss.

And we're back. Okay. Danielle, where would you like to start? Oh my. Um, there's so much content. I mean, maybe at the sex scene. Does that feel appropriate? Yeah, let's start with what we didn't like and then get into the yeah. Yeah.

So I'll place a content warning here for what is arguably sexual assault because I think that the consent in this sex scene between Sonny and Kyle is very, very murky, way murkier than I would have liked or hoped. Which I found frustrating because at this point the movie is like kind of like puffing its feathers out as like having an understanding of consent in several jokes that come before this including like two minutes earlier where you know Sunny says as a joke like I'm not going to take no for an answer with consent of course and you know Lupe is like yes of course but then the movie doesn't really seem

to understand because it was frustrating. Yeah so basically what happens is that Sunny initiates sexual contact with Kyle without like checking in with him first. You can see the shock on his face as she does this. She proceeds onward. So like the idea that anything that is not an enthusiastic yes is a no. Using that as a metric or like that is the criteria, I'm like he is not giving an enthusiastic yes really at any point in this scene. Because she says like I'm touching your thing or whatever and he says yes you are. Which is not consent, it's just stating what's already happening to him. Right. And then eventually, things progress. And he does say, yes, I want this.

But we don't know if that's just because he's feeling pressured into this because Sonny is coming on very strong. We don't know anything because they have not openly talked about this in advance. So we're not sure how he's actually feeling. They have sex. Immediately afterwards, Kyle freaks out. He feels instant regret and guilt throughout the movie. He's calling her wanting to talk about this. She blows him off. And I'm not saying that women should be doing unnecessary

emotional labor for men, but like... But this is a different situation. Yeah, for sure. It really, I felt like that character, again, but like, but this is a different situation. Yeah, for sure. It really, I felt like that character again, just like there are moments where the movie chose comedy over what the movie is about. And it felt like Kyle's character was a part of that, where they're like, oh, he's a magician. He's a loser. He loves his youth group too much. So we don't need to care about whether he is given consent for things or, or, you know, as he's calling her later that I feel like the movie kind of treats it as absurd that a cis man would feel a type of way about anything.

And it's like, you know, religious trauma around sex affects people of all genders. And I feel like, again, it's for some reason, you know, the movie treats certain like it treats sunny and Lupe's trauma and concerns and shame as valid. But then there are exceptions to that. And I just it really bummed me out for Kyle because it just felt like and again, it's like you can you can show empathy for that character without the movie becoming about cis boys. I just thought it was weird that it seemed like the movie took almost any opportunity to blow off and make fun of this character who appeared to be,

first of all, like you're saying, Caitlin, the consent was very murky. And even if we're saying the consent was given was experiencing a lot of like religious shame and trauma after it. And that is like a valid thing. I don't know. I was just confused about that point. Yeah, yeah. I have I have a couple thoughts on this. So I think like, number one, Sunny appears to be drunk, right? So

theoretically, she can't consent and a sexual experience shouldn't have taken place. However, is this how like high schoolers engage in sexual acts? Like, yes, a lot of high schoolers are drinking and are engaging in sexual acts in this way. So in sex ed class, we like to kind of talk about harm reduction, right? Of being like, sure, maybe it's not like the best case scenario, but are we still going to participate in it? Yes. How can we do it a little bit safely? So I do think that like the harm reduction lens

as a sex educator feels kind of relevant here because like people do drink and people do have sex when they drink and it's similar to when we say abstinence only that doesn't work. So I think like that framework is important for me and also I do think that the consent piece could have been added here with just like two lines. Like if Sunny's character before she started touching him just said like, can I touch you? And if he just was like, uh, okay, yeah. Like it was just a small piece there. And then just like one more check in maybe like before, you know, she took out the or he took out the condom or before they use the condom. Like that could have changed the entire scene.

So I do think it's small little errors that were made. And I want to celebrate the parts about it as a sex educator that felt very unique and better than most other sex scenes that I have seen having this lens. One, there's the depiction of condoms, which is pretty rare. True. Two, there's the depiction of kind of like, oh, like there was kind of a mess up. Like she refers to it later as like,

he touched her taint with his penis. But like, you know, just this messiness of like first time sex. They don't even kiss, which is kind of this like showing of how awkward that these two people are in their bodies and uncomfortable. They show kind of her like showing of how awkward that these two people are in their bodies and uncomfortable. They show kind of her gasping out of like how potentially uncomfortable it is. And the session lasts no more than 10 seconds, right? Roughly about that amount of time.

So I just feel like there was a lot that this sex scene could have improved upon, also got right as someone who, like, very much is kind of laser-eyed at sex scenes. Totally fair, yeah. It just sucks that, like, all those positives or, like, authentic, realistic portrayals of it are overshadowed, for me at least, by this murky consent situation. Like you said, it would have worked so much better

if she asked, consent situation. Like he said, it would have worked so much better if she asked, can I touch you here? And if his giving consent was far more enthusiastic and that you could hear it in his voice. And it seemed like both parties were very willing participants in this situation. It just, the fact that there isn't that enthusiastic yes all the way through. In the movie, like the only thing that needs to happen for the story to proceed onward in the way that it does is for the characters to have sex and for him to ejaculate and the condom gets stuck inside of her. Like that's why she tries to get the Plan B pill. So could we have gotten there in a way that

the consent was way more freely given? Yes, and we should have. Although, I mean, speaking to your point, Danielle, I do feel like it is relevant because you are like educating real kids. And I guess I just I wish that if this is the way that that sex scene went, that the parts like Caitlin, what you're addressing, like, came up at any point, because I think that there is some instructiveness in that,

because, like, you're saying, Danielle, so many early sexual experiences, because of the lack of sex ed, are awkward, even if you have all the information, but if you've been poorly educated, it can, like, really fuck young people up. And, you know, when you add drinking into that, and if we're seeing one of those situations,

which, Caitlin, you've basically described, it is a very messy situation, enthusiastic consent hasn't been given, then I feel like based on the kind of movie that this is, you should address that in some way. Either by adding the exchange you're talking about Danielle, which would resolve a lot of the problems,

or like I think that there is a lot of value for a movie marketed at teens, like to show a sex scene that is imperfect because most likely that's, I mean, the way a lot of initial sexual experiences are, and then watch the characters have to deal with it and talk about it and process those emotions. But that doesn't happen.

It doesn't feel like the movie is really built to be able to do that, and it completely disregards the feelings of one of the participants. So it's just like, well, a movie that was less leaning hard on kinda appitowie stuff at moments where, you know, I cannot tell a lie, I did roll my eyes when it was the wrong drug.

I was like, okay, you know, I've seen it. But, you know, leaning into stuff like that, to me, if that's the tone, it's probably not a movie that's gonna be able to address a very complicated encounter like that. I don't know. But it does handle other things so well. Yeah. So I don't know why it flubbed so badly on this very important thing. My assumption is that they were trying to show the realistic portrayal rather than show like a model example of like what clear enthusiastic consent would look like. And yeah, like ultimately, it's valid. Yeah. Yeah. Like I totally obviously agree with you in

that like enthusiastic. Yes, must happen throughout the experience. If you revoke consent, you don't, you no longer have consent, all the things that we teach. And at the same time, I'm kind of torn just to think like, do teens kind of, Again, I don't know a single teen, but do teens kind of see depictions of, quote-unquote, perfect consent and roll their eyes at it and say, like, this is not realistic? Like, what is the balance of saying, like, I'm gonna teach you what the correct way

to talk to people are and how to get consent and how does it look like in the moment for you? And, like, what does that look like to have that conversation with young people? That's a great question. It almost feels to me like they wanted to show the awkwardness of a first-time penetrative sexual encounter. It's a very common thing, not just for people

having sex for the first time, but also, like, I have awkward sexual encounters regularly and I'm almost 40. Like sex is awkward and can be really silly and awkward. To be clear, I am giving and receiving enthusiastic consent every time, but I'm talking about just like, oops, you put your dick in the wrong hole

or oops, you're half flaccid still. Or just like all those bodies are weird. Like the bodies are weird. And these things happen continuously throughout our lives. So I think what they were doing is like trying to show. And again, especially for two people who have never had sex, them having sex for the first time, how awkward that would be. But I think, I think that they thought that not giving and receiving enthusiastic consent was like part of the awkward experience, but you could have still had that enthusiastic consent. And it still have been also very awkward on top of that.

Totally. To my point of like, I still, I again, give and receive enthusiastic consent and still have very awkward sex from time to time. But I mean, I guess I feel like I'm falling some maybe somewhere in the, in the middle here where I agree. I mean, like that is how I have sex now. I don't know that that's how I knew how to have sex when I was having these initial encounters. So I do believe that there is value to it, but like I just think the movie kind of whiffs it.

I had a more articulate thought in my head just a moment ago, but I oh even with like I think that all of the information that you could pull from these characters that we already know again I just feel like the fact that Kyle never physically appears again in the movie after that is a big problem because I think we could safely assume that Sonny is very sheltered. She's clearly gotten info, right? But it seems like both of the main girls in this movie are from pretty conservative value families. They're not openly talking about sex. I don't think it's out of the line of possibility that they are under educated about consent. Especially in the sex ed class they're taking with Rachel Dratch, like they're not learning

about consent. I don't think Rachel Dratch is teaching them. They're showing 80s VHS films. Totally. And then like Kyle is in that same class and also is hyper religious and you know, you're not getting great sex ed at church generally. I've never heard of it happening. And so I think that like within these characters,

there is a way to understand why this initial encounter would not be morally perfect or like a textbook perfect sexual encounter. But if that's the choice that's being made and the movie's agenda is to better educate its target audience, I feel like it might even be more instructive to have these characters talk about it. You know, and I like that it's not like, oh, you know, I think that if this movie came out 30 years ago, I'd be like, oh, I had sex with Kyle and now I'm in love with him. And like they would, it makes sense

they don't end up together. I don't even know if they like each other. Like, but that if they would like take each other's emotional response to this uncomfortable first encounter seriously, I feel like that could actually be really instructive for the target audience. I don't know. Either way, it doesn't happen.

Well, he does try to reach out to her several times to be like, can we talk about this? I need to process, he's saying. And she's being very, very dismissive of that. And then that magically resolves when Kyle calls her back. I think it's now Sunday. And apologizes to her. I was like, Kyle.

Yeah, he's like, sorry for freaking out. I feel fine now. And it's just like, I mean,, he's like, sorry for freaking out. I feel fine now. And it's just like, I mean, maybe but also like, you were really upset and guilt stricken about this and you didn't get a chance to talk through it with this person. Like, not to defend one of the few men in the movie, but I really felt I really, really felt for Kyle because it almost felt like putting yourself in a teenage situation, if you, I mean, again, it feels like Sunny is almost behaving

like in a way that a boy in a movie would have behaved years ago and it would have been presented as pretty shitty behavior because I think it kind of is pretty shitty behavior no matter who's doing it. And if the shoe's on the other foot and you're Kyle and you're reaching out and you're like, I really need to talk about like this. I feel really conflicted about it.

And we don't really get to find out the reasons why. I think it's implied that it's religious, but then I think you assume because it doesn't seem like Kyle has much of a support system that he could go to about this. You can't bring this to your church youth group, really. And so it just seems like he apologizes to her not because he's actually processed it, but because he's, like, embarrassed that he's bothered by it

and she's not communicating with him. And so it almost felt like that character, like, kind of doubles down on shame, where he felt this religious shame for losing his virginity before he was quote unquote supposed to, and then feels compounded shame by feeling like, Oh, and I'm, I was like bothering her by wanting to discuss it after.

I just felt bad for the kid. He's not real, thankfully. Justice for Kyle. It's a fictional film, but I was like, Kyle was, you know, I feel like an underexplored character. Also, he was in a spy kids movie, but like not the original. It's the one where Joel McHale is the dad. Whoa. Yeah. Interesting.

Is he a spy kid? He's one of the spy kids. Wow. He's in Spy Kids 4D. Whoa. The one you can smell. Also, I'm so sorry to interrupt about Spy Kids, but just briefly, if you guys who are listening are interested in hearing about Coohoo Verumah's takes on that sex scene as an actor, I interviewed her and a big chunk of the interview of Sex Side with DB is just like talking about

what that is like to have to enact that with a fellow actor and how to feel safe on set and kind of like what that really looks like to be mimicking that essentially in front of a room full of other people depending on if it's an open or closed set. And so yeah, I just I just found it fascinating as someone who is a nerd about movies and TV shows about like the way in which these things actually happen. And just like what what her portrayal was of it and her experience playing that character. Totally. Yeah, that rocks. Yeah, listeners go check out that episode of sex ed with DB and I'm glad that there's more Discussion on I mean it's been a huge

round of discourse recently about consent on set and about intimacy coordinators and about the changing landscape there because Everyone feels a type of way about it and I think a lot of those takes are kind of like under informed the other thing the other scene that I thought was really flubba-dub-dubbed was the playground scene, aka the scene where Sunny considers performing oral sex on that guy Andy in exchange for a fake ID. We love to see Moses Storm get work, but at what cost? But at what cost?

Now to be clear, I do not have a problem with people trading sex for goods or money as long as all parties involved are consenting adults. Those are the two. Well, that's the thing is like, yeah, they're under duress. They're under duress. They're under duress and one of them is not an adult. In fact, both of them might not be adults. And Moses, Moses Storm is like, all right, he's in his 30s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. And it's like a joke of like, oh, I mean, it is a funny joke. But in the context of the scene, it doesn't work. It's like, no, I'm 17 too. I just have never drank water. A funny joke. That is a funny joke. To be visibly 30, but like it doesn't work. But also we don't know if he's lying. We don't know what's going on. We do know that Sunny as a character is a 17 year old child. Yes, Kuhu Verma who plays Sunny was I think 25, at least when the movie came out. So the actor was an adult but the teenage character is in this scenario there's an element

of coercion here Sunny clearly does not want to do this she's acting out of desperation she's visibly uncomfortable this whole thing is framed comedically for some reason obviously she doesn't go through with it but she's like in this scene where like her face is mere inches away from a like completely full frontal nudity penis and she's 17 years old. And Danielle I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it, but yeah that was my take. I was very surprised by the penis, I'll say that. I didn't see it coming. On Moana's internet. Dear Lord. I think they could have created the same comedic effect if he had a big septum

piercing. It could have been a similar kind of thing where somehow her hair gets caught. She tries to steal it and her hair gets caught in the septum piercing without us needing to Have you know this sexual favors moment Included so I don't necessarily buy that like oh well it had to come back around for the mom to smell the cock ring or the penis ring at the end Especially after like such a nice moment with the mom. It's like this is the beat guys Yeah, it's not great. I think like, this is the beat, guys. Yeah, it's not great. I think that I guess it was used as like a way to show

again, their desperation and in order for them to get the speed in order for Sonny to, I don't know, it feels like it was kind of maybe central in the writers' eyes to like create this offshoot of what happens and the hijinks that ensue. But I didn't love it. It made me uncomfortable and I wish it wasn't really there and at the same time, I guess I understand yeah, how desperate they are, Sunny is in particular, to get this medication and does kind of show that like maybe we could use it as a metaphor, that young people are basically willing to do whatever it takes in order to get the reproductive health care they need.

But this I'm stretching myself here. It's so hard. Okay, I'll start by saying it is so hard to straddle genres in the way that this movie is trying to straddle genres. Because this movie very much does want to be a odyssey of broad comedy and you have all the appetite beats of like, you can name any comedy of the past 20 years starring teenagers and someone takes the wrong drug

and all of a sudden Guy Fieri's there or someone is a corn cop, or whatever the fuck happens. Which again, this is like my taste coming out where I just am like, I'm so sick of it. But like, I feel like this movie's trying to straddle being a broad comedy that will appeal to a broad audience and a very personal, thoughtful story about reproductive health.

And often it works, but the moments where it doesn't, it like to me really doesn't. And this is one of them. For sure. To your point, Danielle, if the writers are trying to communicate like, this is the lengths that people have to go to when they don't have access to reproductive healthcare.

Like, It shouldn't be a funny character. There are a million other ways to do that though, to have a very like heightened situation that's wild and high jinksy and potentially dangerous even without putting a minor in a situation where she is going to basically be coerced into a sexual act. For laughs that aren't even funny. For laughs. That aren't funny.

Yeah, it's like, this is not, like, not the wakest take, but it's like, if you're gonna do something that tone deaf, it better be arguably funny. But this is just like not. Like it's not. It's not. It's not. And it's really icky. And again, there were a million other scenarios

that these characters could have been put in that would have communicated the same level of like, look at the lengths that people have to go to without this very compromising, very uncomfortable situation. So, didn't work for me at all. I think the Planned Parenthood scene does this. And it's not a comedic scene, but like I'm sure we'll get to it.

So maybe I should pause on that. But I guess just like we see the Planned Parenthood is permanently closed and we just see her break down and weep in the parking lot. Like this is many people's reality when they can't get the reproductive health care that they need and that they deserve and that they want so badly. And I thought that was a very moving, realistic part of the film. And that's like where the movie is at its most earnest and thoughtful. And for that

to come on the heels of I think I honestly the late second act hijinks just were like not hitting for me very much. The party I completely agree. It just was in a different movie where and it was and not that this isn't true to reproductive health, but it was out of context where it was like they sort of have a series of male obstacles to overcome. But they're not people who are trying to prevent them from getting care. They're just guys doing something silly in the way. In the same way that I felt like the Edie Patterson character,

and I'm Edie Patterson's number one fan, but the gas station character felt like just when you think that that character is going to be like a genuine ally to them, she just says something completely ridiculous and it chooses broad comedy over a moment that would advance the plot in a way that makes more sense. Not like, because it seems like, you know,

we're led to believe that that character defends the girls when they're being sexually harassed in the gas station parking lot. But then she throws that away by being like, oh no, I was coming out here to hit you with a bat because you stole a friendship bracelet. So it just goes with the dumbest joke on the table

instead of building a character. I don't know. I hate Judd Apatow movies, I guess. This is my take on it. I mean, luckily this is not one. No, but energy wise, you know what I mean? It's like, we're too high. The person said something a little silly instead of something that is advances the plot. Yeah,

I do want to shout out the writer director team here. So this movie was written by Prithiksha Srinivasan and Joshua Levy and directed by Natalie Morales. So it's like predominantly women behind the camera in these major creative roles, women of color at that. So that's encouraging. However, some of these scenes didn't quite work. Also a shout out for behind the camera. Also a woman, a cinematographer and composer, which I feel like we don't see very often. So shout out

to that. So true. Hell yeah. I do want to talk about the things that I thought worked really well. Yeah, sorry. We've been harping on the things that don't work for a while. They are glaring is the thing and they feel very out of place in this otherwise thoughtful, funny movie. Because I think that is most of the movie. Like most of it is done well. It's complicated and sensitive topics are generally handled with care, except for those couple scenes we already talked about. But like, I mean, obviously there's commentary in this movie on the state of reproductive health care and education in the US and how

abysmal it is because you see like the ridiculous sex ed curriculum which promotes abstinence until marriage and perpetuates double standards of you know women who have sex are damaged tainted slots. The fake like car sex ed video is very funny to me. Yeah yeah it's like great satire. Spot on. Yeah. There's commentary on just the overall limited access to reproductive health care in the US. This includes people with uteruses have to travel hours and hours away just to get access because it's not available in their area or it's highly restricted, a la pharmacists invoking conscience clauses

and refusing medication to people if it conflicts with their personal beliefs. And that is almost always rooted in very shamy, slut-shamy type of mentalities. Yeah, it's just anti-choice rhetoric. So that someone at CVS can change the course of your fucking life. Yeah, right. The Planned Parenthood being shut down probably because it was defunded or, you know, something happened along those lines that this place that is otherwise a beacon of, you know, reproductive healthcare is inaccessible now to people who need it. So that commentary that's present

throughout the movie is very effective. The focus on female friendship is really nice. There's queer representation. There's nice like mother daughter and father daughter relationships represented. There's like romantic subplot. Like I thought most of that stuff was handled very well. I liked that their friendship, like the way that the two main characters are written is, I

think, really, really thoughtful. Where they're flawed in all of the ways that 17-year-olds are flawed. They are, I mean, I think about sometimes, yeah, the really close friendships you have when you're young and how both you feel like you can share anything with this person and also their opinion matters so much that it can lead to like withholding parts of yourself because if your best friend judges you who do you have and I like that you know they are these sort of like oases of safety for each other and they love their parents, but they're, they can't talk to their parents about shit. And that even in this like close trusted friendship,

there are these worries of like, if you know every part of me, will that change our friendship permanently? Like again, like between the two main characters, like it's so layered and still so funny. And I love moments where they're like singing to the Jesus trap song.'s so funny and so sweet and like yes very original it was great like and it feels like a real lived-in friendship mm-hmm and I think also with Sunny's character I mean also it's amazing that it's two women of color who are leading this which so rarely happens in any genre. But I feel like with Sunny's character,

she is, I think you could argue, the main main character. And I think that usually that role would be reversed. I think that Sunny, if you wrote down her qualities of she is less sexually experienced, I feel like she has more of how people normally write sidekicks and it centers her and it centers her story and her needs and it doesn't shame her for inexperience and

it like really fully explores that and I appreciate that because I think that yeah like it's a quote unquote sidekick coded character who is given the full space to grow and that doesn't take away from Lupe's story either. True. Yeah, I was just going to ask if we could talk about the way that Lupe's queer identity is kind of like portrayed and how this like, you know, is shown throughout the film just because I feel like it was just so, I don't know, it felt really heartwarming to me. And like, you know, you could tell how nervous she was to kind of tell Sunny and the fact that, you know,

half of the movie, we don't know that she's queer, along with Sunny, we're kind of kept in the dark as the audience. And I just thought her relationship with Logan was like, her budding romance was like very sweet and tender. And it felt realistic that like these two people probably met on like Snapchat on Instagram or something and they hadn't met in real life because they're like an hour and a half away from each other or two hours and like they can't drive to see each other or whatever it is.

So there are just a lot of great parts to it that I really enjoyed. I really liked that like it divert one of the like diversions from this like this like, Apatow formula that I feel like this movie pulls from in moments is that before they get to the party, and also I felt like it weirdly undercut Logan's character, that the car was taken, all that stuff, where it's like, I don't think I would be necessarily trusting Logan quite as quickly again. But that's a separate thing.

But I really liked that the movie took a moment. And I think in what a normal teen comedy would be like, hijinks, hijinks, hijinks, that both of their crushes end up being sweet and decent people who like and accept them. And you just get like a really grounded character moment. And it's still funny. And I just wish the whole movie did that.

Because I really like the scene between Sunny and Hunter in the diner is very sweet. And especially, I mean, like Lupe and Logan, I'm like, I love them. I hope that they Snapchat each other for as long as Snapchat exists. Because it was such a sweet encounter and it was one of those cool, I don't know,

I like portrayals of moments like that. She's teaching her to play the drums too, just kind of little crush moments. It's really, really sweet. And it doesn't like in the way so many teen movies do, it's not like they're gonna get married. This is forever. It's like, this was a really formative, safe,

wonderful experience that like moves Lupe forward in wanting to claim her identity. And like, it's really, and I think that like moves Lupe forward in wanting to claim her identity. And I think that like there that with Lupe, I mean, she lives in South Dakota. She's the daughter of a pastor. I think that her anxiety is around that even if she does fully accept herself is realistic for the time and place that this movie takes place in. And it's like really nice to see Sunny, you know, doesn't even have to think about it. Like she's like, you're being ridiculous.

Because on paper, sure. But also it's like when you think about who Lupia is, what her experience is, and like how important Sunny is to like her support system, that it would feel like a risk for her. And it's just really sweet to see her be accepted. And just have a beautiful moment with Logan. I wish that the whole party scene after that

just didn't happen. I don't like that scene. I don't like the whole van thing. Xander, I was like, who, what? Who is that? He was in, what was that Netflix show? He was in a Netflix show that I saw playing like an a-hole teen.

I can't remember which one it was. This typecast actor. Yes. 13 Reasons Why, that's what show he was in. Oh God, I can't believe that that show came out in the last 10 years. What a moment. Yeah, not great. Another thing I really like about the queer romance is that it gets as much screen time

and narrative weight as the hetero romantic subplot between Sunny and Hunter, which is pretty rare to see considering that if there is a queer subplot in a movie, well first of all they're often non-existent or if there are queer characters there's only kind of like an implied romance between them or if it is a more fully realized subplot it'll take up less space in the story than a hetero subplot or if they do kind of get together, there won't be any physical contact between them. But we see Lupe and Logan kiss before the straight people kiss each other.

And I was like, whoa, that's also very rare to see. They're going at it in the real estate fan. Exactly. And then yeah, like, hetero romances are often portrayed in ways that leaves a lot to be desired in movies. But I really like the romantic subplot between Sonny and Hunter in the sense

that Hunter's a really sweet guy. Because so many hetero romances, the movie is asking the audience to root for a very toxic man, a very toxic dynamic. And in this case, like, as we said, it's like, are there young teen boys like this that exist in the world? I hope so. I mean, they definitely do.

I'm not saying they don't. Guys, I'm sorry. I think Hunter's a corny character and I like him. Yeah. He like, we see him challenge those sexist double standards in the sex ed class. He has this really nice interaction with Sunny where she tells him like, I'm a slut. I did this horrible thing. I had sex with someone I don't even like, and now I have to get the morning after pill.

And she's being very like judging and shaming of herself. And he's like, no, no, no. Like you, you don't have to feel like that. He's not judging her at all or shaming her. Like it was a really refreshing Thing to see I think he's really sweet Yeah, and then he responds by saying like I mean he doesn't say this exactly, but I kind of like that She's like I'm a slut. I'm awful and all this stuff anticipating judgment from him, and then he's like well No, you're a nerd like me

It's true also the way that he kind of talks about the shitty sex ed abstinence film that they see in sex ed class, he actually is the one that sticks up for girls and women and says, like, well, what about his car? Why aren't we seeing his car? Because they're using this metaphor that the wife in the film's car is broken and busted, AKA she has had sex before marriage and therefore no one will want her.

Which by the way, are metaphors that many states still use in their really horrific sex ed classes with miss and disinformation and shaming tactics. And I really like that he's the one that is questioning this because it feels like he is truly showing up as an ally in that moment for them. It was nice. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I just wanted to acknowledge the parents one more time.

Again, the parents don't appear very much, but I did like just sort of the portrayal, especially between Sunny and her mom. I think that like Lupe and her dad for me was like a little bit rushed at the end where I feel like the guy we met at the beginning wouldn't keep asking her where she was. Like, was it his whole thing that he was overbearing and not negligent. Like, whatever it resolves. And I like that it's sort of left as like this Lupe is not going to be comfortable coming out to her father overnight, but they have this moment of connection and love and it's good. But I really, really liked Sunny's relationship with her mom and like, you know, not everyone

is lucky enough to have that experience. But I've had times like that with my mom where it's like you it's not even a question to Sonny of can I talk to my mom about this? She's like, No, I can't, I will be judged, I will be shamed. That's just her assumption that based on her mom's behavior seems like a valid assumption. But then having like those moments when you're a teenager of like Your parent having to sort of recognize your humanity in order to show up for you I really appreciated that her mom was able to do that for her and that she

demolished the guy at CVS and like Made sure that I don't know. I just I thought that that was like a very sweet like made sure that, I don't know, I just, I thought that that was like a very sweet dynamic and that whole moment like at the, when Sunny's at her lowest of like, I want my mom, like who hasn't felt that way? It's very, very sweet. Yeah, I appreciated that as well.

I also appreciate that there is more racial diversity and body diversity in this cast than you'd expect from a teen movie or any movie in general. And something I also wanted to note is that you do see a few examples of characters making racist comments to Sunny and or Lupe, which those characters challenge and mock. So it's just like nice to see the evolution of the presence of racism in teen comedies because in the, you know, 80s, 90s, and early 2000s, and even like after that, the racism in the movie was characters who we were supposed to be rooting for

being openly racist and hateful. This seems to have mostly shifted to racism in a movie being framed as wrong and bad and the main characters who we are rooting for are challenging it. So it's just nice to see that shift because we've covered so many teen movies of decades past where there were racist comments being made and we were supposed to laugh along with them. So it's just nice to see that shift. Totally. This is a tangential thing,

but I wonder if I could have one minute to kind of assess some of like the science factual parts of emergency contraception and plan B in this film. Yeah. Because I think that that might be helpful for people listening, because yeah, there are just a few things that aren't really talked about at all,

and obviously they don't have the time or the wherewithal, but we're here now, so I'd love to share some things. Please. So in terms of the most effective emergency contraception option that there is, Plan B is actually the third most effective emergency contraceptive option. The first is the copper IUD, which must be inputted by a medical provider. Quite unrealistic for people to get an appointment ASAP after an accident happens, but the copper

IUD does reduce the risk of pregnancy by 99.9%. And it also has the added bonus of preventing pregnancy for up to 12 years if you are interested in IUD. The second most effective option is an EC pill called Ella. Ella has to be prescribed by a medical provider, taken within five days of unprotected sex. It also works best for people who weigh up to 195 pounds. I don't know if y'all know, but there are kind of weight suggestions for Plan B. And for Plan B,

which is the most accessible emergency contraception pill, you can get it on Amazon Prime, you can get it at CVS, your local store. And if you take it as directed within 72 hours after you've had it, it can reduce your risk of pregnancy by up to 89% and if you take it within 24 hours it works even better. So Sunny kind of talks about this like ticking against the clock. She kind of has this number of like 61% I don't know where she got that. It feels not correct. I don't know about that. All I know is the 72 hour mark.

So yeah, so that's important to share. And Plan B works best for people with uteruses that weigh up to 165 pounds. If you weigh more than this, you still should take Plan B if it's your only accessible option, but it makes it less effective. So I just think this is like super fucked up that according to the CDC, the average American person with a uterus age 20 and over is actually 170.8 pounds.

So for the average person with a uterus, Plan B actually is not as effective as it should be. So those are kind of the main things I wanted to share, kind of just to- Thank you for sharing that, yeah. Yes. Hopefully they make some adjustments to make it more body inclusive, inclusive, or most people with uteruses like that's absurd. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that information. I would like to talk a little bit more about my upcoming hysterectomy. little bit more about my upcoming hysterectomy. I do want to acknowledge that both as someone who has already gotten my tubes tied and who is getting a hysterectomy and while both of these

procedures were a challenge for me to get because of bias in American healthcare, healthcare in general where people with uteruses are seen as baby-making machines and it's their duty to bear children and doctors will routinely deny you access to these procedures, they will convince you that you'll change your mind about wanting to have children, all that kind of stuff. This is particularly true for white people, because there is a long history in the US and elsewhere around the world of particularly black and indigenous people with uteruses who have been forcibly sterilized without their consent for eugenics purposes. So even though it was difficult for me to get these procedures to exercise autonomy over my body

and my reproductive health, it is still a privilege that I was able to do that because a lot of people don't have and have not had that privilege and they have been forcibly sterilized when they might have wanted to have children. So, you know, the powers that be exercising control over reproduction has a lot to do with racism and eugenics. So I just wanted to acknowledge that, acknowledge my privilege in this situation. And it's like, let people make their own decisions about their own bodies. Duh. But period, point blank. Yeah. Yeah. And like the same goes for just, I mean, women of color are being disbelieved in medical situations constantly where because, you know, society conditions people to view them as less human than white patients, which is just like, I don't know, I feel like you hear a

million stories to that effect. Absolutely. And then the final thing I wanted to talk about is the etymology of the word hysterectomy. Buckle in everybody. So as we've said, a hysterectomy is the removal of the uterus. So, ectomy signifying the surgical removal of a specified part of the body. But we're like, okay, hyster, what's that what what's that coming from well it comes from the greek word hysteria meaning womb and the latin word hystericus meaning of the womb from these words

evolved the concept slash quote unquote medical condition of hysteria, which referred to any number of health conditions that were diagnosed almost exclusively in women and were believed to be caused by the uterus, hence this term hysteria rooted in these Latin and Greek terms. So I'm pulling from an article in uselessetimology.com, which points out that a 19th century American physician named George Miller Beard compiled a 75 page list of possible symptoms of hysteria, a list which he claimed to be incomplete still. So 75 pages wasn't enough. There was

more according to him. But it included things like heartburn, vertigo, headaches, choking, depression, poor attention span, jealousy, who knows, jealousy, anxiety, death, just name a few. You know, we like when I hear the word hysteria, I associate it with like, not able to regulate your emotions, like having emotional outbursts, like all this sexist. Yeah, like giving someone a reason to dismiss you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you have a uterus.

Yeah, right. So apparently, sometimes hysterectomies were performed to quote unquote cure quote unquote hysteria since doctors believed that the uterus was the cause of these problems. Also in ancient like Western medicine there was this condition called wandering womb in which the uterus would... Good band name. Right? In which the uterus would just move around inside your body of its own accord. It would just wander around in there and that that was thought to cause a lot of health issues and have all these symptoms. This is of course not a real condition, but this is

what old timey physicians used to think was happening. Obviously all of this speaks to a centuries long fear and distrust and dismissiveness towards people with uteruses and their bodies and emotions. And I just think it's wild that- And their exclusion from the medical field too. Yeah, for sure. Because I was like, why the fuck is it called a hysterectomy? That's why I don't know how prominent this movement is,

but it seems as though there is a movement to rename the procedure to euterectomy, which sounds more accurate, at least more accurate. So, yay, I just had a U-directomy everybody. But yeah, that's what I wanted to say about it. Thank you. I mean, yeah, it's truly I know that I up until somewhat recently was not well educated enough about what a hysterectomy or U-ctomy, as I will call it moving forward, actually is and entails. This isn't a criticism of the movie because no movie is qualified to take on everything,

but I just wanted to acknowledge as well, particularly because we're recording this two days after the second Trump inauguration, that reproductive access for trans patients is also something that is deeply under discussed, especially during a time where trans healthcare is going to be increasingly under attack. This movie, I mean, again, it's not a criticism of this movie in particular, but because reproductive health has only really become harder to access since this movie came out less than four years

ago. It's just important to acknowledge that this is an issue that affects fucking everybody and that it's not just, you know, femme presenting people who need access to healthcare and need to be believed and trusted. Totally. I mean, bringing it back to hysterectomies, many non-binary and transmask people seek getting a hysterectomy as a part of their gender-affirming care, and that's an uphill battle for many, if not most of them. So yeah, definitely worth acknowledging. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to say? I liked the Jesus trap song. It's pretty catchy. We should learn the lyrics of that. Yeah, maybe make a choreographed dance. Yeah. I guess the final thing that I want to drive home

is that while there are many things that this movie could have improved upon, could have a few scenes that maybe were unnecessary or some extra dialogue that was needed. I do think that it is a step in the right direction of portraying accurately what some of these issues that folks who are teenagers specifically, you know, women of color, girls of color are experiencing in these states, especially where their rights are just consistently being taken away, and all the more reason that we should bring attention

to these issues and also hopefully laugh a bit and feel, like, you know, sweetness while we're learning about them. Yeah, there was nothing like this, no movies like this, when I was a teenager, that I could have, like, consulted. God, I mean, I guess there was that scary thing from 1996 you described to us. Oh, yeah, I mean, I guess there was that scary thing from 1996 you described to us.

Oh yeah, maternal instincts where a deranged woman tries to kill her doctor. After having the hysterical surgery. I totally agree with you Danielle, where it's like we, I know picked on this movie for certain things, but this is the kind of movie that again, just doesn't exist and is important because it leads to other movies like it ideally. And you know, I mean, we've talked about so many movies like that on this podcast that even though it hasn't been very long since

this movie came out, I hope, especially as reproductive healthcare continues to be a very pressing issue, that it will like inspire other filmmakers to make their version of this movie and sort of continue to grow. And also the fact that I really wish that more movies like this, because both movies, I think it is relevant to say that both movies that came out around this time, Unpregnant and Plan B, were both streamer movies.

I would like to see movies like this actually get a proper release and marketing campaign. But I think that these stories are viewed in Hollywood circles as risky. And like, okay, we want to do, you know, we, we vote blue no matter who. So we want to have this movie, but like, we can't actually promote it, you know, because this is a movie that I think like a lot of people would really benefit from seeing. But I don't know, I don't recall seeing very much promotion of it. Like I think if this wasn't an interest I had

and an issue that matters a lot to me, I don't know that this movie would have just come to me in the way that Sonic 3 does. Not that any teen movie gets Sonic 3 promotion, but you know what I mean. I think a proper theatrical release and marketing campaign obviously makes a huge difference. Getting the movie to its intended audience and also beyond to get people who wouldn't

normally be thinking about reproductive health care because they don't perceive it as affecting them. Like Booksmart. I feel like Booksmart kind of exists in this kind of tangential world where, yeah, this is kind of like an elevated Booksm when it comes to like reproductive health issues and queer issues and like all of these things. Yeah, for sure. The movie does pass the Bechtel test very handily, regularly between several different combinations of characters, predominantly Sunny and Lupe. But also Lupe and Logan, Sunny and her mom.

Doris, don't forget about Doris. Doris. There's plenty of women chatting about this and that. Tell you what. Tell me about it. As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining the movie through an intersectional

feminist lens, I'm gonna give this between like a three and a three and a half. I wish I could give it more, but it's just those two scenes that really bothered me that feel so misguided and could have been rewritten in such a way so easily that they wouldn't have been so problematic and uncomfortable. It seems very dis-congruent with a lot of the rest of the movie that they're there and that they're written the way that they are because they deal with things like consent and sexual coercion. I'll give it three and a half nipples docking it for those scenes, But by and large, this movie does handle other things very, very well.

And I do think it's a great step in the right direction. It's a very like, yeah, more movies like this, please, minus those couple scenes that were mishandled. But yeah, I'll go three and a half nipples. And I'll split my nipples between the writer, the director, the two main leads, and I'll give, so like three to all of them, and then I'll give my half nipple

to the 1996 TV movie, Maternal Instincts. Yeah, where's the reboot? Remake it. I'll rewrite it, and it'll be about me, a deranged person who got a hysterectomy and is upset about it. I'm gonna go three and a half as well. I think, speaking to your point, Danielle,

that this is a very important movie to exist. And the two things I wanna say, because I know that there were times where I was coming down pretty hard on this movie. This movie is tasked with a lot that most movies haven't even attempted. So the fact that that both happened, happened with a director with a uterus that this is a very important issue to, happened with leads who are women of color. All of these things that rarely happen in movies are happening here and are released on a major streamer.

That is like no small feat. So while there are my gripes with the movie are my gripes with the movie, but there are so few movies like this that it is kind of a miracle that it exists in the way that it does. And I also wanted to just say, even though I wasn't able to find a lot of information

about the production specifically, but I would not be shocked if some, maybe not the initial sex scene, but the Moses storm scene, it feels very studio notes to me, where it's just like, make something silly happen. And again, it's like, that this is a Hulu movie, it is very much not outside the realm of possibility that a couple like dipshit executives are like, I haven't, what if there was a PP that was pierced? Like some shitty, like I don't wanna assume that this was all like, this was always the most important thing to happen.

That might explain some of the tonal dissonance. Maybe that's inherent to the project, I'm not sure. But it is a movie that's important to exist and the gripes that I have with it are gripes that I don't have with other movies Because movies like this don't exist So I hope it will continue to lead to more Movies that don't contain these issues that have wider releases But I think Natalie Morales and Prathees Srinivas have really done something amazing. And Joshua Olivia, I guess. I don't know.

I don't know. It's like when people are like, Noah Baumbach wrote Barbie. But did he? Did he? I really don't think that he did. Maybe he was nearby. I know they share a home,

but don't come near and watch the movie. Anyways, I just don't believe. That's a conspiracy theory. I think that she owed that's a conspiracy theory. I was like, I think that she was just, she owed him a favor or something. Anyways, I'm gonna give it three and a half nipples and I'm going to, yes, give one to Natalie Morales, one to Prathi Srinivasan,

split one between Kuhu Verma and Victoria Morales. And then I'm going to give my half nipple to Sonny's mom. Because I, the character, but also the actor, why not? But like the character, because I was really pleasantly surprised by, and I really liked that ending beat between the two of them. I think that that was like a really thoughtful, cool beat. So yes, the character of Sunny's mom gets my last half nipple. Lovely.

Daniel, how about you? Yeah, before my rating really quick, Jamie, you mentioned that there aren't really many other movies like this, but I want to shout out the movie fitting in. I don't know if y'all have heard of this movie, but it stars Maddie Ziegler and it focuses on a teen who's diagnosed with MRKH syndrome, which is a condition where a person is born without a uterus. And it is directed by Molly McGlynn, who I also had on Sex I Would Be with recently to talk about this film.

And Molly McGlynn, this is based on her own experiences. And so just a really fantastic film, very well acted, highly recommend it if you're looking for more films to cover about reproductive health care and conditions. But that is neither here nor there. I'm going to give this film four nipples. I think overall I have, yeah, hopefully planted my flag about how important I think that it is that we're showing realistic depictions of sex scenes. And yes, of course, we want enthusiastic consent no matter what, hands down, period. And I really like the way in which, yeah, female friendship is portrayed here, the kind of desire to get reproductive health care needs met, and the kind of silliness that happens along the way.

I love the way that queerness is depicted in this film. And yeah, just overall, I really enjoyed this movie. I loved watching it a second time around. I'm going to give all of my nipples to Kuhu Verma and Victoria Morales. I think I just love these actors. I love the way that they portrayed their friendship. And that's where all my nipples are going. Yay, oh my gosh.

Thank you. And thank you for joining us once again and lending all of your expertise. Thank you for having me. This has been great. Where can people follow you, check out your work, et cetera, plug away? Yeah.

Check us out on Instagram at sex ed with DB podcast You can listen to rom-com bomb Wherever you get your podcast by just typing in sex ed with DB or rom-com vom that's v o m And yeah, you can check us out sex ed with DB Com we're also on tik-tok at sex ed with DB and thank you so much again We're also on TikTok at sexedwithdb. And thank you so much again, Caitlin and Jamie for having me. This has been such a blast.

Oh, the pleasure is all ours. Thank you so much for joining us and giving us so much good info. Cause it was like, I learned, I lived, I laughed, and I learned. And now if that's not a podcast, so thank you so much for joining us. Anytime.

You find us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. That's pretty much where we are social media wise. Is there a healthy place to be on social media? No. No time to talk about it. But if you want to directly support the show, the best way is to sign up for our Patreon, AKA matrion at patreon.com slash bechdelcast.

It's $5 a month and it gets you two bonus episodes on a weird theme from Caitlin and I every month and access to our back catalog of over 150 episodes. You can also grab our merch at teepublic.com slash thebechdelcast. It's all designed by Jamie, ever heard of her? Woo! And yeah, thank you for listening.

Send positive vibes my way, I guess, as I recover from my Udirectomy. And yeah, we'll be back next week. And with that, let's get in that minivan and have a fun little road trip, shall we? And move some real estate. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye.

The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit www.linktree.com.