The Bechdel Cast - Possession (1981) with Alicia Berbenick

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Alicia Berbenick talk tentacle boyfriends, goo, and Possession (1981). Here's the book we mention during the episode -- https://www.abebooks.com/9781800857063/Possession-Devils-Advocates-Taylor-Alison-1800857063/plp  | Follow Alicia on social media at @bene_and_the_gesserits and @resident.easel and check out her website beneandthegesserits.com  Also, vote for We the Unhoused at the Signal Awards at https://vote.signalaward.com/PublicVoting#/2025/shows/genre/activism-public-service-social-impact   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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competition and we would appreciate your vote. It is literally two clicks. There is a link in the description of the episode you are listening to right now. So pause the episode. Vote and enjoy the show. The Beckdale cast. Hey, Jamie. want to come over and meet my tentacle boyfriend who lives in my bed? Yeah, as long as it's questionably not real and created from all of the trauma you've accumulated from throughout your life. Well, duh. Okay, good. That's most, I mean, that's most movie monsters, right?

You're just getting fucked to death by your own trauma. That's the experience of life. So why not have the guy who made E.T. create the monster that fucks you to death? oh yeah i didn't realize it was the same person oh a legend carlo rambaldi he also i believe he wasn't in charge of it because his hr geiger geiger someone help i think it's geiger hr geiger but he's like an hr geiger guyger guy and he also made the xenomorph an alien yeah yeah so he's carlo rambaldi's all about a wet little trauma monster

monster, which is how I describe E.T. I mean, kind of. I would love to get fucked by my own trauma because then at least, you know, you're getting something out of it. Anyways. Welcome to the Bechtel cast. Well, that was a great introduction. We nailed it.

This is the Bechdel cast, our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm Caitlin Durante. I don't think I introduced myself. Oh, I'm Jamie Loftus. I'm the one that wanted to get fucked by the mom. I can't speak for you, Caitlin. I can only speak for myself.

You know, let me get back to you on that. Okay. I went to the Academy Museum recently and I saw the fish from the shape of water again. And I was like, that's not a trauma monster. That's a, that's a fantasy monster fuck. Who you also want to be fucked by. Yeah. And it really is pulled into sharp focus when you see that he's built to scale.

Ha, scale. But that wasn't what I was trying to do. Wow. But you know what I mean. You know what I mean. I love it when you get punny. I know. I never see it coming.

I think it's whenever I'm running on very little sleep. Yeah. Well, in any case. It's the Possession episode, guys, we're so excited. The time has come to cover the movie Possession, 1981. Mm-hmm. And we have an incredible guest in the house. Oh, wait, we should say what the show is.

Yeah, I mean, intersectional feminist film analysis, where we use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. but what's that I wonder well it actually is relevant to today's discussion so we'll tell you the Bechtel test is a media matcher created by our dear friend friend of the show alison bechtel originally as a joke in her comic that went from the 80s into the 2000s called Dikes to watch out for about how there is very little queer representation in movies specifically with women but has since become a more mainstream metric. Lots of versions of this test, the one we use requires that there are two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man. This, I mean, I guess that a lot of, you know, this is just a jumping off point for discussion, but I was actually thinking about the test, which is rare these days on the show.

We're mostly thinking about other things. but I was like we don't know how the trauma octopus identifies you know and is that not a meaningful interaction I certainly think so I would say very meaningful now Anna does refer to her tentacle lover using he him pronouns oh well okay unless unless we're thinking that this we're okay already overthinking at two minutes in so unless we're thinking that Anna's misgendering her own trauma monster, which I certainly hope she wouldn't. I think so highly of her. She's an icon.

She's a legend. She's an icon. She's the moment. She's got her milk all over the place. I, okay, let's, okay, we have an incredible guest. That's what the Bechdel test is. Whether you think it passes, they're not sort of hinges on how you gender this tentacle monster.

Because otherwise, it's a pretty solitary movie with a lot of men. exactly but yes let's get our guest in here she is a writer illustrator and editor specializing in horror film inspired imagery she's the creator of the zine resident easel it's alicia berbinick hello and welcome hi thank you so much for having me on i love this show oh my gosh we love your work we really do oh thank you and we're so excited that you brought us you brought us a little juicy bit of gristle to talk about today. Yeah. What is your history with possession? Oh, I was, I think a lot of us might come to possession all at the same time in our lives when we're having like a rough time when we're talking about, you know, film with, you know, someone we look up to or, you know,

like someone who's really deep into the arts or whatever. This was circa 2015, 20, you know, just hinging on 2016, when I was just like, oh, I'm so bored with everything I'm doing. I want to get back into watching horror movies. What do you recommend? And someone I just kind of peripherally knew was like, well, there are all these new films that are coming out that are just like newly available to American audiences. Have you ever seen possession? I was like, no. And he gave me a YouTube link just like, go check it out. And this was, yeah, around that time when I was just like glued to my YouTube, like watching this repeatedly, and it really changed my life, this movie. Wow.

And then after that, I went on to really study a lot more horror films. I was a part of, very, very briefly, I was a part of a horror film podcast with two other dudes, and then left that one for probably obvious reasons during 2016. Yeah, so it was like, I have a past with this film. It really helped me find my voice, so to speak. That rocks. Yeah. Jamie, how about you?

What's your relationship with it? Also very particular. I saw this movie for the first time a couple years ago when I was going through a terrible breakup with a guy that sort of looks like a young Sam Neal if you tilt your head. So it was very cathartic. I had heard of this movie before because I think that the subway scene is something that it's like one of those clips that goes viral every six months and so I had seen that scene before and I'm like I like this but I never followed up on like what it is and then yeah it was when

I was seeking a cathartic breakup movie to watch a couple of years ago that I was like oh it's it's time it's time to watch possession and I mean I don't wish a horrible breakup on anyone but if you've got to go through one this movie is it's and I I've seen this opinion repeated because it is such a brutal movie, but I found it so comforting at the time that I saw it because it's just like, especially if you're watching this movie in a way that it's just washing over you, which is not how we analyze movies here. But it was, it just felt awesome to see like such intense and irrational pain just like fully committed in the performances and all of the creative choices. I don't know. I felt weirdly validating

for how out of my mind I felt while having to, you know, like you have to continue to act like a person. And these people are not acting like people at all. I just, I found it to be a very, very cathartic breakup movie. So I think it was during a difficult time, which is I think how a lot of people come to this movie like you're saying. But I found it very soothing. And so I think I watched it like, I think I watched it twice during like the height of that breakup. And then I've returned to it twice since in the years that came after. And so this was my first time watching it critically and also like learning more about the filmmaking process. And I mean, you can tell like where this movie takes place. It takes place in Berlin in the early 80s. So it's like

I didn't know anything about the director at all, but specifically how political. this movie is because I was so distracted by the tentacle porn, but not this time. This time I was ready for the tentacle porn and ready to think about the Cold War and feminism and directors who abuse power. So there's so much to talk about. But just, yeah, strictly on my first watch, it also was like the exact right time the movie found me when I needed it. Kately, what's your history with this movie. I had never seen it until prepping for this episode, nor was it really on my radar. As I've said in the past, I'm like not the biggest horror person. It's sort of the genre that I am least acquainted with. Over the years, I've seen more and more. So I've, I've seen

like a decent handful of the classics at this point. But this one just like wasn't even on my radar. It's still pretty culty, I think. Yeah, that must be it. Had no idea that Sam Neal was in it, Dr. Allen Grant himself. Yeah. And I will have to say, I don't like the character of Dr. Allen Grant. I just like, so it never occurred to me to think of Sam Neal as attractive. But I mean, obviously his character is terrible, but he is hot in this movie to me. And I was like surprised because I just found I hate I think I hate the character of Dr. Allen Grant that's like because why is your define you're defining characteristic as you hate children and at the end of the movie you kind of don't yeah I hate that arc yeah I hate that arc but what about Mark who

hates his kid the whole time I mean but but also kind of likes him more at the end I I don't think so I see I have a I have some hot takes on these parents they're bad they're me, they're bad parents. Wow. I guess that's not a hot take. They're bad parents. You heard it here first. They are.

Yeah. This is like, I also like watching it this time, I was like, damn, if this is what divorce feels like, I'm getting unengaged. That's not worth it. Yeah. It was such a wild watch. I had no idea. I thought it would be more demonic possession based on the title alone. And there's definitely some supernatural.

stuff happening there's a creature there's sort of a suggestion that it's kind of religious maybe but not really not in the way that like the exorcist or movies like that deal with demonic possession yeah it's like completely all over the place and i'm like i was relieved when i was like doing research for this that it doesn't seem like there is any definitive read of this movie because it's just like it's just throwing shit out there and like you sort of latch on to it's throwing tentacle at the wall and seeing what sticks. And I just don't quite know. I was like, am I not, like, I'm not getting the metaphor really.

I don't think you're supposed to. That's the thing. It's like, okay, okay, good. Yeah, because as I was watching it this time, I'm like, I don't know if this movie is like necessarily, quote, unquote, good by ordinary metrics, but I know how it makes me feel. And it makes me feel like punching a wall, you know? Yeah.

I think a lot of people do kind of correlate. his work with Lynch or you know someone where you are looking more at symbols and how things make you feel and you know like metaphysical properties and I don't know meditate on it a bit and maybe you'll get something that contributes to your life you know and I even feel like maybe that's what Zulowski was thinking when he was making it yeah right and making it like post-divorce and he was like really distraught about a divorce he had gone through and he was like sort of an expatriate like he was like estranged from his from poland and i just i didn't realize like that i knew that this was a divorce movie because i mean it stands to reason but yeah i i didn't

realize we'll talk about that in the discussion but like how he had been basically like booted from the polish film industry because of his politics scary probably a sign of things to come instructive filmmakers take note yeah you can see I still make possession even when you get kicked out of your country. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Yeah. All I know is what I've been told, and that to have truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky.

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put off. Okay, so we are in West Berlin in the early 80s. A man named Mark, played by Sam Neal, reunites with his wife, Anna, played by Isabel Ajani, and their young son, Bob. And it's really weird to me to see a little boy, like a five-year-old boy named Bob. I was, yeah, already I was like, these parents are weird. to name your, I was like, was that a thing in the 80s? I don't think so.

I feel like it would have been Bobby. Yeah. Right. Right. I don't know. Yeah, it's like meeting a baby named Linda. You're just like, what? This is a grown-up name.

This isn't for babies. Yeah. Anyway, so Mark returns home. He's an international spy. He was away doing like Cold War espionage stuff. Yeah. What did every? I sort of like, because it's so easy to forget that he's a spy because not only does he quit his job immediately, he's, he's doing quote unquote spy work when he's stalking his own wife, but he's so bad at it. And every time, like, that's one of like the dream like things I'm assuming is intended, but who knows? It's like every time someone from his work comes up to him, they're like, you're the best spy in the world. And it's like, but we're watching him do such shoddy work that you're like,

No, he's not. Is that what it's like to be a man where you're just being told you're amazing all the time? And meanwhile, you have no fucking clue what you're doing. I don't know. Exactly. I think, so a full disclosure, I did read a little book on this called Possession by Alison Taylor. It's like a part of this Devil's Advocate series. It's almost like 33 and a third, but for horror aficionados.

Oh, that's so cool. I know. I just discovered it. But, yeah, they're out of England. You can find them online. Um, but in this book, she did a little bit of research and found that it was more like this whole espionage thing is supposed to be a joke. It's supposed to be making fun of, uh, what you see in movies and like kind of getting meta about it. Like, does this man wear, you know, pink socks? It's like, it's supposed to be ridiculous. It's supposed to be silly and a little bit of like, like Charlie Chaplinesque when the, when the spies are like trying to, yeah, he's poking fun at this whole. idea that we're like spying on each other and yeah okay that that makes sense yeah wait sorry what was the name of the book again um it's just possession but it's called uh like the whole series

is called devil's advocates okay cool yeah so they all have this like black background with the and then a still from the film and they're tiny they're like like i said like the 33 and a third series that rocks very cool we'll link those in the description of the episode yeah yeah Yeah. So yeah, that's Mark. He's a bad spy. And he and Anna are having marital troubles. She wants to split up, but she can't really say why she doesn't really know why she's feeling the way she is, though she insists that she has not been cheating on Mark. And Mark immediately proves that this is a good decision she's made because he responds emotionally and physically abusive instantly. And so you're like, well, if there was any doubt about whether this is a good person to be with, there it is. And yeah. Right.

Then Mark goes to a meeting with his bosses and he quits his job, citing family as the reason. I guess he's trying to repair his marriage and leave being a spy behind. But Anna isn't there when he returns home to their apartment. But she does call and confirm his suspicions that she is, seeing someone else, a man named Heinrich, and that he gives her more sexual pleasure than Mark ever did. And he's like, oh, okay. And then you meet Heinrich and you're like, damn, I would lose it as well. If you're like, this is the guy. No, no, no, no. I'm not like, if you were Mark. If I'm Mark, I'm like, this is the guy. Yeah, exactly. For sure. So then Anna and Mark

meet up at a cafe to discuss their separation. Anna wants to keep their apartment. Mark does not want to see their little son Bob for fear of like fucking him up emotionally. This is where I feel, I wonder like if this is where the audience is supposed to lose any potential. Like, I mean, ideally when he is physically abusive to his wife, that is the moment where you are.

like fuck this guy forever but i you know made by a man in the 80s i'm not so sure i feel like the moment where you are supposed to lose him even in the early 80s is when he's like so quick to be like well i don't want to see my son anymore to like prove a point which again is like something that kind of just goes away eventually but i thought it was uh very whatever telling that he yeah he's very he's he's a bad parent he was so quick to be like okay well Uh, if it, if it proves my point, fuck my small son that we named Bob, like, yeah, he's already having a hard enough time. This name's Bob.

He's seven. If that, I thought he was like four or five. He's little. But yeah, he is ready to abandon his son forever. And Anna is appalled at this. And things become violent and he chases after her. Cut to Mark on a bender. he's drinking heavily he's filthy he's mentally and physically unwell it's been three weeks then he kind of gets his act together not really but enough to like return to the apartment and little bob is there all messy and sticky because anna has left him there alone

not sure for how long maybe a few hours but mark gets him cleaned up and anna eventually does return and mark who is being extremely obsessive and possessive. Maybe he feels possession over Anna. He's like, I can't live without you. We need to be together as a family. You have to call Heinrich and tell him it's over. God, Mark is just like, ooh, I hate him so much. It's so satisfying.

Like the Sam Neal performance, I feel like it's all so good. I didn't realize that I like learned this in the research process that they're they're doing a very specific style of Polish acting that is like turning everything up to a 15 that was at the request of the director which is why you don't really see any other Sam Neal performances remotely like this but like they're pulling from a very specific playbook but just how like he quits his job and then refuse it like at no point is this man ever going to reflect it's just like and an act of, yeah, like aggression toward getting what he wants. And, yeah, he deserves to die. Does she? No. She did nothing wrong, maybe. And Bob, you know, he, spoiler alert, he survives to the end, but he's fucked for sure.

Oh, yeah. It's just, there's no coming back from that. No. I usually don't read the Wikipedia synopsis because I'm like, I did a great job at this. I don't need confirmation. but because I didn't really understand a lot of what happens in this movie I was like maybe I'll read it and just like check my work

Oh is he supposed to die? It says on Wikipedia at least that he goes into the bathtub to drown himself Yes Bob so my I don't know Upon reading like I'm upon watching it this time around Yeah I when I first saw this I was like

Oh my God that's really dark at the end I hate that like sorry that we're jumping to the end But I do think part of it is what we're talking about right now where the instance where Mark comes back and is cleaning him up and he's going like, oh, he's like hit a new world record with the deep sea diving in the bathtub. Because he's holding his breath. He's like playing.

I feel at the end he has become so avoidant that the game he is playing becomes reality, that he jumps into the tub to play and inadvertently dies. Okay. Like I don't want to see this. I don't want to see this. I want to go into my fantasy world, which is in the tub, which is safe and comforting. But then, yeah, I think that's, to me, that's what happens.

That tracks. That makes sense to me. I mean, yeah, I was like, I don't think that's necessarily clear, but also so much of this movie isn't. That does make sense. And wow, way to add something horrifically tragic in literally the last 30 seconds of the movie. I know. I know. It's either that or the apocalypse, so I suppose maybe a bathtub is better than the apocalypse.

Who knows? Right. Seems like everyone was going to die anyway. Yeah. Bleak. Okay. Cool. 1981 in Germany, baby.

Woohoo. So, anyway, Mark is begging Anna to end things with Heinrich. And she seems like maybe she'll comply with his request, but she leaves again to go stay with Heinrich. and Mark is trying to figure out where Heinrich is using his spy skills, I guess, but he's like, again, not doing a good job because he just calls Anna's friend Margie all the time to be like, where is Anna? And it's like, aren't you a spy? What are you doing?

Right. And Margie, we don't, I don't know what the hell is going on with Margie. She is, and it's almost like this guy cannot, it's like I will write one woman character. character, but certainly not too. Barely. Because Margie is sort of just slipping and sliding around. She says a couple things, but mostly she's just falling down. Yeah, so much so that she broke her foot at some point, off camera, we don't see, right? She comes in, just hobbling around on the broken foot. Like, I thought you meant the actor. I was like, Jesus Christ. All we know about her is that she's like accident prone and, you know, flirtatious. And she gets one of those

casts that has like a high heel kind of built into it which I'm kind of into that also we're told and again I'm assuming this is intentional but I also don't understand why which is not the last time we'll be saying that but we're told that she is Anna's best friend but I don't think we ever see them talk and if she is Anna's best friend she's a terrible friend she's always just trying to fuck her abusive husband yeah so it's I I don't know Really bizarre And this is like

Zalowski We'll talk about his like personal life And his approach to working with actors as well But like This is the kind of movie you watch You're like well This guy doesn't understand women at all And then you look at his personal life section on Wikipedia

And you're like and he never figured it out And he never did But yeah Margie I can't account for Margie No no one can Yeah Anyway, so Mark is trying to locate this Heinrich guy. Meanwhile, he's a single dad now, kind of.

And so he has to drop off his son Bob at school. And he mistakes the school teacher, Helen, for Anna in a wig. But she is played by the same actor as Anna, Isabel Adjani. So he's not wrong. Like, this person is some strange doppelganger of, Anna. Right. Who does all of the things that he thinks is wrong with his actual wife, where she's very nurturing. She's, like, quick to reassure him. Like, you know, she's very gentle. Like, she's, yeah, he's cooking there. But again, I don't quite get it. Shrug. Yeah. Then Mark goes to Heinrich's

house. And so we meet Heinrich. He's played by Heinz Bennett. But Anna isn't there. And Heinrich is, he's making some choices. He's very touchy, feely. He's like, relax. We don't have to be enemies. He's a real, he's a real piece of work. He's like a piece of shit. Yeah.

And there are all of these, like, because he also has said that he's, like, ditched his family. He's like a fuck machine, but he lives with his mom and, like, doesn't, there's just so many bizarreo elements of Heinrich. Yeah, he wears spirituality like a costume. doom just to seem fuckable, to seem more emotionally in tune with women. And I really think that Zulowski was probably burned by a guy just like this. And that's why this guy is so ridiculous. Yeah. There do feel like certain elements of the divorce, if you're just focusing on the divorce narrative and like staying away from the doppelgaggers, the tentacle porn and all, all the other

stuff going on. It does feel like, this guy is too specific to not be referencing someone he actually. actually do exactly he also Heinrich also has a lot of books and it seems like he was maybe trying to like enlighten anna through all of his knowledge from books and so i mean not that that's a bad thing necessarily but in this context it's like you're it's like disingenuous silly simple woman who doesn't understand the world so let me educate you right right which is like such a i don't know, unfortunately, who among us hasn't gone from one abusive relationship to a different kind of bad relationship. Indeed. Exactly. So anyway, Mark is there confronting Heinrich and he's furious. So they end up arguing and brawling, although mostly it's Heinrich kicking Mark's

ass. And so Mark returns home. Anna is back. Like 90% of this movie is just like people returning home and sometimes the one spouse is there, sometimes they aren't. It's just a lot of coming and going, but for now, Anna is back and she's expressing how conflicted she feels about different things, though she declares once again that she does want to leave Mark for good, and they're screaming at each other, and it becomes very physically abusive, and Anna runs out. Mark chases after her. either he bumps into Anna's friend Margie or maybe he has like asked her to come over.

And then she says one of my favorite lines in the movie, which is something akin to like, I love to see you in pain. Yeah, because they hate each other. They do. Yeah, but it's like a little, but it turns her on how much she hates him. Right. Which is like, okay. Maybe.

Sure. Like, sure. It's happened. Right. But it's just her character is so weird. So, such a, such a weird lady. Yeah. Yeah.

But she comes over to help with Bob because Mark is just not doing a good job as a parent. And then Mark hires a private detective to follow Anna to see what she's up to, despite the fact that Mark is a spy and you'd think he could do this. Not that I'm like advocating for a man to stalk his wife, but I'm like, why aren't you using your skills? Anyway, um, right. He hires someone else. It's funny.

yeah and also just like another such a clear indicator that he does not actually care about Anna at all because she's clearly having an episode of some sort and what is going to exacerbate an episode but actual surveillance like that is going to heighten any feeling of paranoia that she's clearly already experiencing it's just like you really want to push them off the top of a building for that one you certainly do so Anna once again returns home Mark is desperate for her to communicate with him and to understand what's going on. But she's like kind of too busy slicing up some meat with an electric meat carver. And that's definitely not a like metaphor for whatever.

She's just making a raw meat really tiny. And then she uses this electric meat carver to cut her. neck a little bit it seems like she might be attempting suicide but mark stops her and treats her wound and things have calmed down a bit well and he also like attempts to injure himself too yes yeah which i feel like is again another like yeah he's trying to do something there like i don't know but but mark marks attempts to empathize with anna are so half-hearted and and and maybe is guided that he's like, oh, I want to feel the physical pain that you're feeling because that is like more comfortable than me actually giving a fuck of like what you're

feeling or going through. Yeah. I also felt like he was just acting like a complete child for most of this too. He's just like, you know, like, oh, you did it. I'm going to do it too. And I don't know. And she doesn't help him. Like she sees him cutting himself and she's like, I'm out. And he's like, it doesn't hurt. And she's like, no, it doesn't hurt. And that was, that was one moment where I was like, whoa, like you're both acknowledging that this torture that you're putting each other through actually is like, oh, I don't feel anything at all for you, for this, like, yeah, it's wild. Yeah, that was like, I feel like it's one of the reasons of it is that like they're, whatever,

all the physical pain, their experience thing is our divorce feelings. And it's like part of the reason that they're heightening their action so much is because it's like so hard to feel anything for each other which is that's that's dark divorce heads sound off in the chat it seems bad yeah so you'll never believe this but anna leaves again she's always coming and going that's kind of her thing yeah and that detective who mark had hired follows her and discovers that she's been renting an apartment in this like derelict building so he knocks on the door pretending to be like from the building manager's office and he looks around and he finds something very disturbing unclear at this point exactly what we're seeing

but it's some creature that's bloody and gooey then Anna kills the detective with a broken wine bottle so things have taken a turn that I certainly was not expecting you never forget your first time seeing the big gooey guy or murder right yeah right exactly meanwhile at home bob's teacher helen aka the anna doppelganger shows up and mark is like here finish giving my son a bath because heinrich also shows up he's acting very weird he's flopping all over the place i'm not sure if he's supposed to be drunk or something but i think i think he's always like some manner of fucked up yeah he takes a little bit he takes a a lot of drugs too right yeah and he wants to know where anna is and mark is basically like get out of here

bitch i'm not afraid of you anymore then mark and helen chat a little bit first about bob and then mark says something where he's like women are evil and helen's like i'm right here like right well and it's also like implied and this is where i was like oh god uh where was my where is my high school history education like where did it go um where she implies that she is from east germany and is now in west germany and there is like this whole political aspect to her identity that i genuinely don't think i know enough about to say exactly what he's getting at but but that she it's implying basically that she has seen horrors so much worse than what she's she's sort of like shut the fuck up like I've seen people die which I kind of appreciate but then she still is

but that's really the only moment that she really pushes back on Mark in any significant way yeah so I found her I like I like whatever that is I like it but it felt like it was like dipping its toe into doing something but then she becomes very docile and kind of submissive to what he wants after that. So it's weird that that only happens once. I don't know. Yeah. She also says something to the effect of like,

okay, she says the only thing in common with women is like menstruation, which, okay. But then she also says, right. 1981. Yeah. Exactly. But then she says something to the effect of like,

you're kind of only getting angry because you don't understand freedom. And it's sort of like you are the problem here, buddy. like you're getting mad at her for being a free person yeah like for for having agency right and sort of I saw again there where he was being a child and the teacher stepping in and being like no no no you're actually the asshole in this situation yeah and then it's just like so bizarre that that is sort of dropped moving forward to the bitter end of the movie she's sort of just like doing whatever the plot needs her to do it seems like it's weird yeah including immediately after this they get

naked together and lie down next to each other and it's unclear if they end up having sex but she's i don't think they i've read some theories about like mark in general about like how mark feels about sex and about women in general where there are reads of this movie where mark is thought to be closeted and instead of, and this is like not a read that I have necessarily, but it wasn't something that occurred to me before I was going through this viewing is that Mark, I mean, part of, it seems like Anna's issue with the marriage is that like she's not satisfied sexually. There are a series of times where Mark doesn't have, well, the real sort of thing that this hinges on is there are three shots. I didn't notice it until this viewing. There's three sort of very similar

shots in the movie that happen with each member of the family where it's like it's first with Mark holding Bob when he's not wearing a shirt. It's not a sexual thing at all but he's just like looking at his son and then there's later an identical

shot where he looks at Anna in the exact same way in the exact same shot which I think is meant to imply that he doesn't view her sexually he just but also you could view that as like he views her as his quote unquote property the way he views his son as his property and so like there's all of these

i did i did see reads of this that thought that bob was closeted i don't really think that but i do think that he he has no idea how he feels about anything which is true for a lot of people and reacts with violence instead but this was the first time that i really noticed that and then there's a shot where oh my gosh what is the last version of that shot i think it's um towards the end Anna looking at, Anna looking at Mark with the same sort of like, I don't know, like, I don't even know how to describe that look. Yeah, the read I had on it this time was that the first shot of Mark looking at Bob and holding him that way is like, you are my creation, you know, like, you're my son.

And then him looking at Anna is a similar way of like, Adam and Eve, like you are part of me, like from my rib type thing. And I'm going totally biblical on this just because. I grew up in an awful, like, evangelical, like, that's my upbringing. So I can't, like, unsee some of these things. But then when she's looking at him and she takes off his shirt and she looks at him and she's like, I am, God is in me. It's like, oh, fuck.

Like, I am the creator. We don't really know this about her just yet when she says that. But it's almost like, I'm in control now. That's how I read it. Totally. yeah this movie's attitude towards sex i guess is just really uh twisted and bizarre uh all that to say i i'm pretty sure he does not have sex with helen because because she says you don't have to make love to me and he seems sort of like few he's like i wasn't trying to yeah yeah he's like we're

this is just this is just uh divorce naked time yeah whatever i don't know right so that happens The next day, another detective who works with the first detective and is his romantic partner is concerned that the first detective hasn't shown up. So the second detective, I think his name might be Zimmerman, he goes to Anna's new apartment and finds the same bloody, gooey creature lying in the bed. Now we can see that it has tentacles. There's also some light emanating from its abdomen. It's oozing all sorts of like blood and white and green goo. And Anna is like, oh, him, he's tired. He made love to me all night.

Oh, ha ha. By the way, he's still unfinished. Implying that she's like working on the creature or that it's going to turn into something else. Right. And then she attacks and shoots and kills the detective. Meanwhile, Mark receives a package. It's footage of someone filming a ballet class where Anna is the teacher and we see her be very cruel to one of her young students. And then she's talking to the camera, ranting and raving about sisters and faith and chance and other things. it don't make much sense.

I always forget that that scene is in the movie. Right. Because I, what does everyone think is going on there? Can someone, I, I have theories, but I,

yeah, Alicia, what's happening? Well, this most recent time that I was reading it, or watching it, sorry, I was thinking about,

well, first the whole scene with the ballerina and, you know, her, like she's being super cool to her,

her student and whatnot. This is all filmed by Heinrich and I think that Heinrich sent these videos to Mark to be like, see, I'm the superior man but like the whole Mark gets something different out of this. As Anna's talking, she says this is why I'm with you Heinrich because you say I for me

and what she is saying in that instance this is in the past, you know, during their relationship you say I for me when I hear that I think you speak for me. You take my agency. You like make it easier to, you know, not be responsible, like, to just, like, go about this affair and, you know, you speak for me.

But then in the next section, she's sort of having a breakdown, and she is starting to think about the sister's faith and chance, and there's, like, the duality there. A very small detail that we caught at the beginning was that she was briefly with Mark. They had a child, and he went away pretty quickly after. Yeah. So I feel like she was really taking a chance with Mark, taking a chance on being a mother, taking a chance on having this relationship with Mark and being his wife and all of that. But somewhere along the way, her faith in them gets ripped apart. So now she's trying to rebuild her faith, which could be taken as the creature.

So that's one interpretation. She also talks about having to be everything to everybody else. Yeah. And so losing, losing any sort of, like, possession of the self. That's fascinating. Okay. I had not connected the dots in that way. So thank you for that.

That's just my reading, though. That's just what I'm bringing to it. That's, I mean, this movie is Lucy Goosey, baby. There's no wrong answers, but that, that makes a lot of sense. Lucy gooey, too. Lucy Goooey. Louis gooey. Louie gooey.

Yeah. My, my, I always forget that scene is there. And then I, like, rewatched it a couple of, times just to be like, huh, okay, okay. I wasn't clear. I mean, they say that she stopped working about a year ago, which to me also already indicates like perhaps an impending crisis, which is certainly true for Mark who leaves his job and immediately spirals into crisis. So when I was seeing the ballet tapes, I was like, okay, maybe that was her job that she stepped away from because we don't really get a lot of information about her otherwise. And it felt like, I mean, and again, maybe it's

like this is where I'm projecting stuff where in an environment like that it can be not always obviously there's plenty of dance instructors that are amazing but you're in a room full of people who you perceive as your younger self and I do think that there are teacher-student dynamics where if you are singled out as like a sight of pain and abuse it's often because the teacher is like I see my younger self in you and I should have experienced that pain and then I would have been XYZ where I feel like that comes up in athletics a lot or like whatever black swan whiplash you name it like the pursuit of yes being the right way is thought to require suffering and so it's like it's weirdly I'm like I tanya you know we could keep going of just like yeah the forceful coach who abuses

the young student to quote unquote push them to greatness but it's also because they hate something in themselves. And again, I'm like, I don't know exactly where that would fit into this movie specifically, but I don't know. Yeah, my read of it in this viewing was like that there is a part of Anna that does experience this like extreme self-hatred or or the idea that like, I mean, this is definitely clear that she is not fitting into the roles she's supposed to fit into correctly and that she's And so much of why I love, even though it's, she's not great, you know, but like, I love those

moments of her extreme anger, even though, oh, my God, this movie could be hard on the ears. There's so much screaming. So much. And the sound mixing is like, seems like it's pretty much done on the fly because there's a lot of echo, there's a lot of tunnel echoes, whatever. But when she's angry, it's just, I don't know, like I, again, this is like me projecting probably but it's like god i've done everything i was supposed to do and it didn't work and i'm like so much worse off than i started and that's like i don't know like i just feel that in her so much

and to me that's what the monster is is like i did everything i was supposed to and i'm absolutely fucked and like i don't know i don't know but yeah that that tape this time i was like how does this fit into her story and her story is vague enough that like you can kind of go a lot of ways with it yeah truly yeah and I'm still I'm trying to figure this Anna out to this day this diva who knows who knows RIP I mean those shoes the sunglasses oh my god wow pause for the for the fashion it's like it's so fucking I also like that there's like this cartoon character quality to their clothes where we know that this movie takes place at least over about a month or so because at one point there's just three lost weeks that is never referenced again

and we're led to believe that Bob was surviving on jam or something horrible but this movie takes place over like more than a day and yet no everyone's outfit is the same it's like they're sponge bobbing it very blue yes yeah i didn't even notice that but yep yeah like the sam neal and then and then even when we're seeing the flashback of the um the miscarriage scene she's wearing the same dress so it's like this is just this is just where it is yes and we're about to get there because you'll you'll never guess what happens next but anna returns home again drag her um mark of course does not yet know anything about the tentacle man in her new apartment but he does see her being very erratic and unstable and he's

trying to understand what's going on. And then she recounts a memory, and we see this flashback where she's at a church for a brief moment, looking at, like, Jesus on the cross. And then she's in this like metro underground hallway kind of thing. She's flinging groceries around. She might be possessed or something. There's red and white and green goo. seeping out of her various orifices.

She picked up a bunch of goo at the grocery store. And then her goos everywhere. And it's seeping out. And I didn't connect these dots upon my first watch, but this is her having a miscarriage, I believe. Yes. And so she tells this to Mark, and I don't even know how he reacts. I feel like he doesn't really have much of a reaction.

But he does call Heinrich to be like, hey, this is Anna's new address in case you want to go over there. So Heinrich goes to this place. And he and Anna are like kissing and stuff, but he's also saying some very rapy things. Then he finds the tentacle creature, as well as some human heads and other body parts in her refrigerator. and he's like, oh my God. Yeah. And then she stabs him a little bit and he escapes and calls Mark. So Mark goes to the apartment and the creature is gone now.

But Mark does see the heads in the refrigerator and he freaks out and he goes to meet up with Heinrich at a bar and they discuss what they might do to help Anna. Although Mark is like mocking Heinrich and acting. like he doesn't really believe him. And then he kills Heinrich and blows up Anna's apartment, I guess, to hide the evidence of her recent murders. Yeah, Mark kind of goes joker mode towards the end where I'm like, I don't even know why he's doing what he's doing. And he clearly doesn't either. Like, he's just like, all right, how could we heighten?

Okay, I just killed the guy. it also like the meanest way possible and okay there which i mean it's it's fun to watch where he's like you can see the little cogs in his like weak brain turning he's like okay first i'm gonna get on the toilet and damn i'm gonna no no no like he's just such a little fucking weasel um yeah yeah he's i don't like i guess he does he blow up the apartment to like protect her to cover her tracks like it does seem like there is towards the end this like not that they're stuck together clearly these clearly these two aren't gonna be it's not gonna work out between them yeah uh but there is still this like and i do feel like that is having divorced parents i feel like that is divorce vibes of like

even though there's a part of me that like really hates this person um and resents them and we've been through all this awful stuff i still feel this like compulsion to protect them to some extent. I'm not saying that it's like he's actually an amazing guy, but like that is an extreme act that you're sort of led to believe no one else would take for Anna because why would you? He does say, and I never caught this before, but and I think it's just after they've, after he's like, I don't remember what part it is.

There's so much coming and going, as you said. But there's one part in their apartment where she's about to leave and he says, you are all I have. And I think that that's why, because he is so hell-bent, I mean, all the men are so hell-bent on trying to possess her and trying to just like make her see them, you know, that she just keeps slipping away from him and all he can do is just try and protect her in the event that maybe she will allow herself to be possessed by him. Yeah. That's all I can think of. Yeah, that's, that was my read as well. Also, it's just like, it's just, I like seeing Sam Neal scoot around in that little bomber jacket.

I like it. Oh, yeah. When he gets on his little bike and he zooms away, I'm like, it's, it's just so wild. He's, he's never been hot to me. But when he's like blowing stuff up and he's in his little jacket. Yeah, he's got his like bangs. You're like, I love it. Right.

And then he comes back home to find Margie back. badly wounded. It seems like Anna had stabbed her. Yeah. They're best friends, though, guys. They're best friends. They'd do anything for each other. There's a reference to Margie saw it or saw something. I guess she saw the tentacle creature and that's why Anna killed her. Anna helps Mark get cleaned up and then they have sex. And now they're like, okay, we have to cover up Margie's death and get the hell out of here. So Mark puts Margie's body in the trunk of his car, but when he comes back inside, he discovers Anna having loud, passionate sex with the tentacle creature. And he's just sort of like, okay. Again, his reactions to things are really bizarre and hard to

understand and he leaves again and pays a visit to Heinrich's mother who realizes that Heinrich is dead and she dies by suicide and you're like what what I mean that's okay so there I was like okay so this is this because there's always just the chance for this movie that this is just something that happens because why not because it couldn't happen so why not make it happened. But it also felt like, well, is that the movie's attempt to make some sort of statement on both faith and motherhood? I'm like, is this, what was he saying with that? I don't know. I really don't know. Something I've been reflecting on recently after having gone to film school twice, not that I would ever mention that, but especially in my undergrad where I took a lot of film production classes,

and then I took at least one in my grad program. And like people who weren't writers, but people who were aspiring directors and like were more focused on kind of the production side of things versus the development and writing side of things, they'd be on set shooting something and they would be like, okay, in this scene, this random thing is going to happen. And then this character is going to do this wacky thing.

And I'd be like, but why? And they would say, because it looks cool. yeah and I'm like but and I think a lot of filmmakers just kind of make weird choices that don't necessarily make logical narrative sense because they're like they're like I can do that because I can because it looks cool and this is the kind of vibes driven movie where that would happen right it's just like again there's I guess similar to Bob dying which I've now seen this movie three times didn't know didn't know Bob died but that you're like this yeah like this yeah like this could be a very intentional choice that is just like kind of unclear or like you're saying

Caitlin it might just be like let's let's make sure every woman's dead before right yeah we got to make sure every woman we've met is dead right yeah I what I got out of it was again he's just trying to make fun of Heinrich as like a mama's boy type of thing and have this this this it seems like this woman's only reason for living was her son like she that's the real tragedy. Right. And so, this is a little bit cutesy, but like she dies and the window opens, like, her soul's gone. Like, I don't know. It's just like, there's such a weird, I guess it's this one more of those like religious scenes for this film. Yeah. They're kind of just scattered throughout. Yeah, I didn't make too much of it. Okay. It could be a throwaway scene,

but it could also be that, I don't know. We don't know. It's. so weird because everything happens it i mean it's part of why i really like it everything happens with the same amount of intensity but like it could be either very meaningful or just be like well i don't know whatever like like just like the the long take between like anna looking at jesus you're like you can either see like that is the cryptex to understanding the movie or it might just be like we shot it and when we decided to put it in the movie she says faith and then she looks at a crucifix later thoughts like you know right yeah Yeah. Right, right, right. Who does? Okay, so where are we? The next day, Mark's former spy bosses slash colleagues approach him and there's a shootout on the street. So it becomes kind of an entirely different movie for a few minutes where now it's like a spy thriller and Mark escapes and heads into a building all bloody and injured. And Anna shows up and she's like, let me introduce you.

you to my friend, and it's a doppelganger of Mark, also played by Sam Neal, except he has a different eye color, similar to how Anna's doppelganger has a different eye color. And so I guess this is the tentacle creature, this doppelganger of Mark, that has been slowly transforming and evolving into the doppelganger. And Mark is just sort of like, again, weird reaction. He's, He's just sort of like, oh, okay. And then the spy dudes catch back up with Mark and shoot him and Anna. The doppelganger escapes, cut back to little Bob, and his teacher Helen is there as his new guardian question mark. And Mark's doppelganger shows up at the door and he's kind of banging on the door.

He's kind of like, yeah, he's climbing up the door. Really? And Bob is afraid, and it goes in the bathtub and presumably dies there. Did not know. And then a bunch of bombs start raining down outside, as if like... Which is like, it's almost like this movie takes place next to the Berlin Wall. Yeah. And that's the end of the movie.

So everyone gets it, right? Makes sense to... I mean, it's like the doppelgaggers are the last one standing. Yeah. So that feels like a clear... something or an unclear or something I don't know I don't know the last thing before we got to break I guess I forgot there there's like I think my favorite I mean well it's it's the the tunnel scene is like the most elevated like that performance is like unmatched but like a smaller moment

that I really loved on this viewing in particular is like you really don't feel Sam Neal give up on the relationship until he sees an octopus fucking his wife like you can see uh there's like there's just like okay i get it this relationship will not move forward like and even though he's like his character is a piece of shit right but like i i've in that moment i could relate with that character where it like it takes something so extreme for you to accept like okay so this is over got it got it but it takes a cryptid fucking your wife in front of you to be like so she's actually not interested at me got it i just love that moment yeah it's pretty great um all right let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss all i know is what i've been told and that's a

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Well, what should we talk about? Alicia, we're going to kick it to you. Where would you like to start the discussion? Is there anything jumping out to you on this viewing? Oh, man. Well, we did talk a little bit about, like, here and there, the two sisters. Okay, there's a part where she's like, yeah, I miscarried chance. Like, the miscarriage scene, it implies that chance is gone, but faith is the tentacle creature that she's also having sex with that she maybe gave birth to.

so I don't know I'll be honest there the thing when things get that like it's why I I mean whatever it's why I can't do like the Bible whereas like when things get that like bonk you over the head like symbolic my brain just kind of switches off yes I'm like she okay so we're witnessing the miscarriage of an idea chance is goo we don't yeah but yeah what was your take on discussion of like the sisters and those metaphors? Yeah and I think I think she was kind of talking about her and her relationships and responsibilities and things like that. I do feel like the creature is her shot at creating something that she she thinks like nothing has satisfied me in the past. I must create it. But then lo and behold, what she creates is the exact thing she

already has, but in a more divine sense. Because when we look at the way that there are subtle nods to the fact that the creature could be God or a devil disguising as God, because Emmanuel is the name of the first detective that comes into the room, and Emmanuel means God with us. And, you know, every single one of those dudes who sees the creature goes, my God. and Heinrich also becomes temporarily blind so there is some sort of divine he's a divine entity that will go on to destroy the world in a very misogynistic biblical reading you could say she's the whore of Babylon giving birth to you know but I don't think I don't think that

that's true I haven't thought about the horror of Babylon in a long time shout out to her yes yeah right but I don't I don't think that's what's happening here I think it's more just feminine agency and the feminine ability to create because a lot of people when they see the monster they think that all the white stuff is sperm and I think it's milk I think she oh yeah I guess I thought it was milk yeah right it feels like she is giving her all to this including her own bodily fluids and her orgasms and like every bit of herself her responsibility and it's sort of incestuous, which is also kind of weird. Right.

Yeah. Which my understanding is that Zolowski does not mind throwing in some incest into his work. It seems like a consistent theme from what I've gathered. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think what's so tricky in the way, and I'm sure that we're going to encounter this over and over, is that, like, so often, and we're like, in what I was reading about this, it's presented as, like, you know, that Mark and Anna are sort of two sides of the same coin in some way. And I feel like the plot bears that out to some extent where they both create

doppelgaggers that are idealized versions of the other. If we're to think that Helen is like not quite real or like there's so much projection going on from Mark's side. But what I think is. Yeah. Yeah. But what I find tricky about like the way that I've seen this movie written about and I haven't read.

I want to read the book you have. I didn't encounter it. But that, like, you know, it's hard because it's like we're presented with this dynamic that I don't even know if Zulowski understands because he's clearly sorting through some very personal shit and would continue to. I saw that much later in his life towards the end of his life, a subsequent romantic partner sued him for oversharing about their sex life and about her life in a work of fiction, quote unquote. and he lost that case because she was right. So we know that a lot of this is coming from a personal place, but I can't tell on the Zulowski side if he, like he knows that they are both deeply flawed

and they are both obsessed with control. I don't know that he fully sees Mark as abusive as he really is. That's why it's like I find some of the writing around it tricky, although I don't really have a solution for it other than to constantly kind of qualify, like, yes, Anna is a deeply flawed person. She is a negligent parent. She is like, she is a very, very deeply flawed person, but she is also clearly subject to horrific abuse and control by her husband from moment one.

Yes. And the violence, I mean, correct me if I'm right, all of the violence we see from Anna towards Mark is reactionary. it's not um she is not the aggressor and it's like mark is and i do think i guess to this movie's credit that we do see well we do see a lot of physical abuse coming from mark particularly in the first half of the movie i i feel like i don't you don't i mean you see this unfortunately a lot in movies because it happens a lot in life but um but i do feel like it appropriately and maybe this is the sam neal performance he seems like a coward

when he is attacking her. And I don't know like how to exactly, but like you can feel that this abuse comes from a place of cowardness and self-hatred as so much abuse does in a way that doesn't justify it or excuse it. I guess I'm more kind of inclined to give that to Sam Neal because it's so like it's awful to watch because it feels in a movie where everything feels unreal, that element to me felt very real. Yeah. I was going to say the thing I didn't know about it until I read this book by Alison Taylor is that the slapping was insisted upon by Ajani and by Zulowski and he did not want to do it. He, Sam Neal. Yeah. And both him and Isabella and Johnny were like abused by Zulowski during the course of filming this almost like in a Kubrickian Shelley Duval way. Yes. I wanted to share because yeah, Ajani has talked. about it more, which I guess makes sense because I'm presumably she was subject

to more of it. Yeah. Because yeah, we can't, in spite of the fact that I really like this movie Zalowski as a person is, I mean, he's a scumbag. He's an interesting scumbag who was subject to a lot of political violent and we can talk about that side of his life

too because like it wasn't like he wasn't wronged by the state time and time again. Right. But in terms of the way he approached, it feels like a very 70s, 80s male atore thing that we unfortunately have talked about so much on this show. Like Kubrick is a big example, but this is another one where it feels like weirdly David Lynch is the outlier in this group of directors because actors really like working with him and will work with him time and time again where Isabel Adjani points out, have you ever seen an actress

that's worked with him twice? Because I haven't. Yeah, I wanted to share some of the quotes. given for this mostly in the last five years or so, because she's still with us and working, as is Sam Neal, who by all accounts seems like a, seems like a minch. I kind of want to read his memoir. Right. The most significant thing I think that comes up or came up prior to Adjani giving these interviews about five years ago is that Zulowski would almost like wear as a badge of honor that Isabella Johnny was in such a bad mental state after. this movie that she attempted suicide. This is something that is, I guess, mentioned in the commentary track on a release of possession where he, I mean, I have not heard him say this,

but you can feel it. So here's, he said, when she saw the film after, she committed suicide because she never wanted to see the dailies. So she really didn't know how do we look at her. And she committed suicide. But being Isabel Ajani, you must understand in Europe, Isabel Ajani is a diva. She's a big thing. She went to the bathroom and she cut her wrist with a G2 machine razor, which cuts you half a millimeter of skin and not much deeper. So he's both bragging that he drove, which I do think a lot of directors of this ilk, where is a badge of honor of like this way? And I think we see this. I think the most recent movie were you really, I mean, Jared Leto tried to, but it did work. But like Heath Ledger's performance is brought up a lot of like a performance that brought you to the brink of your own sanity when that is like not something to be happy about and just indicates that the production is not doing what it needs to do to protect their performers right but not only is like zulowski bragging that this movie he he created a film so toxic that it was an active threat to his lead actor he also in the same breath dismisses it as like well she's difficult

to work with and she's a drama queen and she actually it wasn't actually an attempt on her life. It basically is saying, like, she's just trying to get attention because she's a diva, which is just like, you know, in a paragraph, that's who this guy is, right? Like, this is a guy who is like, you know, making this very, you could argue petty movie about his own divorce, about a working actress who was still working at the time. And not that he's not entitled, you know, everyone's entitled to their divorce movie, right? Like the brood.

The brute. marriage story whatever everyone yeah like you can make your divorce movie regardless of gender whatever but like i don't know there there is this meanness that you feel in this movie and at least i guess all i can say is like he doesn't spare mark in that appraisal it isn't like oh no poor mark anna was so mean like they're both awful yeah but anyways uh isabella johnny responds to this because um zilowski died 10 years ago or so. She said in various interviews, his movies are very special, but they totally focus on women as if they are lilies.

It was quite an amazing film to do, but I got bruised inside out. It was exciting to do. It was no bones broken, but it was like, how or why did I do that? I don't think any other actress ever did two films with a hymn. She said, I consider myself a survivor for a lot of reasons. What's beautiful is to make a place within yourself for a character without that character turning into a negative entity, but sometimes your life gets blown apart like that. Great actresses have been devoured from the inside.

It's kind of a self-cannibalism. It's not a job that facilitates a happy frame of mind, quite the opposite. That's why it's important to be surrounded by friends who can be angels, but also conscientious objectors. Otherwise, you can lose yourself. And then the last thing I wanted to share is, I made it, meaning possession. So I wouldn't have to work all the time. and I was criticized for it. They said, why don't she make more films?

It was because my parents were ill and needed me and my children needed me. I even forgot that I was an actress at certain times, but that too isn't forgiven. Basically, there's no way out. So we see these references that she makes to the fact that this was clearly an ego trip male filmmaker that unfortunately this is a narrative we're familiar with.

And also something that we weirdly talked about recently with Kathleen Turner, where it's a prominent actor. She's more prominent in Europe than here, but a prominent actress who is made out to be a diva when the reality is she is either setting a boundary with an abusive filmmaker or she has things going on in her life that are not being made space for or accounted for,

which just seems to very much be the case. And it seems to me that like all things considered, she's still pretty generous with how she talks about. this experience because it sounds like, I mean, she has never pushed back on the fact that she did attempt to take her life after seeing this movie. Like that is not something that seems to be made up. And it seems to be something that Sam Neal has confirmed as well. So I just, I don't know, people like, male otters, like obviously, we've talked about this for 10 years on this show, but there are so many, there are not so many, but there are examples.

of men working through stuff in movies that is safe. And I feel like David Lynch is actually a really good example of that, as is John Waters and, you know, people with very specific narrative voices. You can do that. You can make a very personal movie and protect the people who are realizing that vision. And you should. But Zaloski certainly did not. So with all of this in mind,

I kept kind of toiling over how sympathetic are we supposed to be to the Mark character. Because true, the movie does not shy away from showing his violence and obsessiveness and abuse toward Anna. But I can't shake the feeling that we're still supposed to be on his side, kind of. And, oh, you know, sure, he's, he's flying off the deep end sometimes, but it's only because his wife is so hysterical. What else is he supposed to do? Because it's not as though he doesn't try to understand her. He asks her a lot of questions. And there are many scenes where he's like, what can I do to help? What do you need? What is going on? Please communicate with me. which in theory is nice obviously his tone and the way he's handling it isn't good but i think more

the problem is that anna is written to be a character who is just so like hysterical that we are meant to be like oh what even the because i watched this movie on shutter and the like short synopsis of the movie on the platform basically blames everything on her because it says something like this stunning nightmare of a marriage unraveling is an experience unlike any other. Professional spy Mark returns to his West Berlin home to find his wife insistent on a divorce. As Anna's frenzied behavior becomes ever more alarming, Mark discovers a truth far more sinister than his wildest suspicions. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and say, I think that's AI. I like that sounds like a very AI coded right but I also think a lot of people would watch this movie and agree with that assessment and be like sure he he yelled and he struck her but she she like drove him to it kind of yeah exactly so I interesting I don't really see I mean I see him as I've said it kind of this whole time where he is a simpleton he's kind of a child like person.

And I only sympathize with him in that because it's like, oh, buddy, you don't get it. And I think that's maybe a part of the reclaiming that a lot of people, especially women, have had in the last decade toward this movie is like, it's almost an accidental. It's like an accidental feminist horror film. Yeah, I definitely see that reading. And, of course, like, obviously I don't agree with, oh, like, she drove him to this horrible behavior. But I think there would be people out there who would, particularly men who would read it that way. I agree that that's definitely like that's the bad faith reading that a certain kind of person is going to take, particularly of a certain generation. But I think, yeah, Alicia, I agree.

I don't, I don't know. I think that even when Mark is, and again, I don't, I can't pretend to know what's going through Zelowski's head because he is not above abusing his. own cast. So I think that any takeaway from this that is empowering is like you bring in your own baggage to it. But I'm okay with that. And that is I guess the thing with like a loosey-goosey movie like this is like there's enough sort of blank space that you can project yourself on to it. But I do think that even it's, I don't think we're supposed to think that when Mark is asking her what she's thinking, that he actually means it. Because the way that he does it and the that the performance is because also like so much of this movie is the performances um he's so

fucking pathetic like and you to me it's like he doesn't actually mean what he's saying he's saying the thing he thinks he needs to say because it's like he only reacts to i think it's like a really good point alicia that he doesn't really have any original ideas he just sort of does what his wife just did in an attempt to understand why she's doing it but i don't think that he's trying to understand why she's feeling because he actually cares. I think he's just trying to understand her to the extent that he can own her again. And so in different scenes, he is reacting in the way that he thinks will either trick her into being closer to him or frighten her into staying. And like, that's right. Classic abuser tactics where he just sort of seems to randomly choose the tactic he

thinks will be more successful. And this is, I don't know, like I did. It's, again, it's so, so elevated but like having been in abusive relationships it's like sometimes an abuser will just be like okay am I going to like yell and shove and throw my weight around to freak you out into staying or am I going to fling myself on the floor and be like oh my god I'm so pathetic I would do anything for you but no one does that because they mean it you know like it's it's just like two different kinds of control tactics and again like speaking to your point Caitlin I don't know exactly how aware this director is of abuse tactics given that he weaponized them to make the movie. And, you know, watching this movie, you're like, well, I hope his ex-wife is doing well because

and it seems like she is. She was in a long-term relationship after this. Oh, gosh, I'm going to butcher this Polish name, but it is based on his marriage with Malgorzata Brannick. she she went on to have a you know 40 year relationship that seemed very happy but that you know down to they had a son another Polish name I can't pronounce Zawari Zalowski I don't know who at the time of this movie would have been nine years old when it came out so it's like I also think that there's I don't know if I'm a autobiographical filmmaker you know to some extent your past relationship are going to be fair game it's going to come up but like when you're he killed his own son i'm pretty sure like and if you're his yeah i mean i'm hoping that his nine year old was not allowed to see this

movie when it came out but it's like you grow up and see that and you're like oh what there i don't know i don't know where i'm getting to i think that mark my my read of it is that i think we are supposed to view mark as pathetic but i guess it is up to the viewer of how much how much how much rope they're going to throw him to be like, well, he's only pathetic because and not just what I think we all agree on, which is that there is an inherent patheticness to him because of how he's been socially conditioned. I also think it would have been helpful if Anna had been characterized a bit more so that we understood where she was coming from, perhaps. And we can, again, like, speculate and insert our own experiences and kind of project those on

to her in a way that does make her more empathetic and sympathetic, but the movie doesn't do all that much. So you're just like, what? And then she has a tentacle boyfriend who she's making. And we're like, and that is what again? I am supportive of that. But there. Yeah. I mean, I guess that my, I'm not trying to play devil's advocate too much. I just, I don't think that we really know that much about either of them because it's like even mark's back story of like he's a spy is kind of just like played as a joke and it seems like I mean and this is where I feel like there are political undertones to this movie that I just kind of don't understand unfortunately like I don't have the like the history background to fully understand Germany in the early 80s other

than like obviously we know the Berlin Wall isn't going to be there much longer Um, but the whole, it, anytime I see this, I think I'm like, it's like I Frankenstein, um, but go on when you're in this big city, but there's no people, you know, like, and there is this feeling of like this large abandoned space where people are just navigating this psychological horror. But I also think that that is a statement on West Berlin at this time too, where it's like there are people, but where are they. I don't know. Yeah, I honestly, like, if there are listeners that, like, understand the political undertones of this, I would love to hear from you because I know that it's there and I just, like, was not able to get there in time to record this. But, you know, suffice it to say, we've, like, referenced this throughout the episode, but that because of his previous films and ostentably his, like, openness to leftism, Zalowski was all but thrown out of Polish cinema more than once

where kind of his whole career was bouncing back and forth to the point where this movie was a like I believe a three country production where it was like a Polish director and then a German-French co-production because that was at the time the only way that he could make movies because previously I think it was prior to possession he had worked on a movie for two years in Poland that the government ended up being like,

you cannot release this. We are not going to let you release this do to your politics, burned the print, burned the costume, basically, like, you know, nuked it so he couldn't finish it. So there is like, not that it justifies his personal life, but this movie is so fraught with like anger and frustration and like impotence.

And I mean, I knew going in that this was related to his relationship, but also knowing that it also feels related to like creative impotence of like working on something for two years. And it doesn't mean anything. There's just like so much going on here. And then this film was kept from the public for so long. Right. Because it was caught up in the video Nasty's scandal. What a great.

Can we, wait, can you speak to that a little bit because I've just learned about it and what a great name for a scandal. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've had equivalent, like, moral panics in the states, but it was essentially this thing of the censors being like, oh, no, you can't show Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you can't show any of these types of films. And so we're just going to confiscate all of them until we have rulings on each of these films to decide whether or not they're obscene. And so they were banned in the UK for a really long time until they were able to evaluate it. And, like, Ajani and Sam Neal had to like write separate letters just talking about like why a quote unquote octopus fucking was

not obscene like they were seriously talking about is this bestiality like what yeah so they were getting really like worse than we are today like get really deep in on this and like when we get to the point where like actors are having to do homework I'm like that's never that's never going to vote well no but so so like eventually they're like okay it's not that's not that. obscene. And they're like, but for U.S. audiences, you're just going to have to make several cuts and rearrange the film and make it linear, which, what, this film cannot survive that. So some U.S. people in the U.S. were able to see it and they're like, what the fuck is? This is horrible. So it was trash for a really long time until it got a proper release date,

I believe, in like around 2009. And that's when we start to see it like on YouTube and appearing at, you know, midnight film forums and things like that. Yeah, the version that was initially released in the US was an edited 81 minute version of the movie, so about 40 minutes were cut out and it basically just turned the movie into like a creature feature rather than any story about like the breakdown of this marriage and all of the sort of like psychological horror component. of the movie it was just like and look at this gooey monster isn't it scary and it's like well that's not what the movie's about no but yeah this is this is a very befuddling movie that I still don't

know what to make of one last thing I kind of wanted to mention was um Kira Janice's take on this from House of Psychotic Woman yes yes so she says um and I I totally identify with this. She says, I can relate intensely to Anna's disturbing fits. In my house growing up, it was my voice. That was a problem. I was told not to talk. And as Anna struggles to talk, her whispers become growls, screams, and hyperventilating.

There's a freedom in this kind of self-obliteration, the collapse of propriety. We all need that place, that window of time to go crazy. So that's how, whenever I watch this film, I'm like, I feel like it is about a woman finally, like figuring out how to possess herself and let loose. And everything that comes out of her, it's sort of like, I don't fucking care anymore. I'm going to find my voice. I'm going to use it and fuck everybody else. Totally.

So, and I think that maybe a lot of people have like kind of come around to that reading. I don't know. Also, how's the psychotic women is such an all-timer? it's so good so good it's really really good i i would more align with i mean i i see that interpretation for sure and again and as a host of the bechtal cast my interpretation of this movie or like my attachment to it would be aligned with that but i'm having a hard time getting there i think because mark is framed as the protagonist and the main point of view character we are with him for most of the time.

When we do cut to Anna, it's because she's with Mark and we just don't, I feel don't hone in enough on her as a character and what is fully going on with her. I feel like we're seeing her through Mark's eyes versus seeing her more objectively. And I feel free to disagree, but as I'm watching this, I wish she was the point of view character. Oh, yeah. I agree. But I also, like, wouldn't want to see her as the point of view character from this writer's perspective.

Like, I don't really, right. I don't think that it's really possible that that's why there's, there was, I don't know if it's still happening. I hope that it's not. But, like, there was a proposed remake of this movie starring Robert Pattinson and the director of Smile. So again, we're like, which is like, don't, please don't. um yeah lived right right

an original story for the love of god but um but i see what you're saying i just like i wouldn't i don't want to know what zalowski's like feelings from a female perspective would be and and this is like kind of rare and i guess sort of like pushes against what our show is really about but like for this movie particularly because it came it took so long for it to come out in its intended form i don't really care what the director's intention is because it's not clear like it's not clear and I I guess I am I really like the cathartic nature of this movie where I would like to know more about Anna I would like it confirmed that like she was I mean it would make a lot of sense to me if she was a dance teacher that stepped away from dance so

not only is she in this unhappy marriage and like not happy being a mother and not fitting these roles that she's quote unquote supposed to fill but she's also been removed from her art and like that is really really compelling I wish that like and I do think that there's space for that because there's so much yada yada in this movie that yeah I would be interested to see that version of it but even as it is I just like I really like her I like and she's and we'll get to like they're both really bad parents which I do think is interesting in the context of like yeah I will say that I think Mark is made out to be the better parent and the less negligent parent or at least the parent who pretends to care, which does feel like Zelowski patting himself

on the back. Meanwhile, he's killing his own child in his movie and abusing his actors. So fuck that. Like that whole, I think that that's the real angle that like I'm like he's being overly generous with himself. Yeah. By just saying that like because his wife left him, she's a piece of shit parent which is like you know something that's been weaponized against women for millennia right but like but what i really like about anna is her i don't give a fuck this like that's so cathartic of like anytime he is i don't know yeah because it's again like you're putting yourself in the situation of like someone being like please like do you want to be with me do it and she's like no and he he's like what if i laid down and like kissed your feet

and said i love you so much and she's like whatever i don't care like he cuts himself And she's like, bye. Like, something about that, it does feel like if you are in the quote, unquote, more feminine submissive role in a relationship, seeing the person who's expected to be that way, just say exactly what's on their mind at all times. And when they're upset, they scream. And when they're angry, they act. Like, I really connect with that. And I really like that. And, yeah, to me, it's like, I doubt.

that Zalowski was like, I'm making this movie for people who have felt like, you know, who relate with Anna. I think he is probably making it for the people who relate with Mark. I just don't care. Totally. Yeah. Agreed. I will also say I think that those two

shots of the videotape of her actually talking to the camera, he could have just not put those in the film. But I do think we get at least a glimpse of exactly what you're saying, Jamie, about her feeling over the past year because it is like from Heinrich's point of view and from their year together away from Mark she is talking about this like weight that's on her and she's not she's not even really being that articulate because she hasn't figured it out yet she's also she's

just trying to find the right words to say she's speaking very poetically because it's all she can really think of and it's almost from the perspective of someone panicked like I've got myself into this really shitty position and it's still not enough like you it's like kind of coded but it's like you heinrich are not exactly what i was looking for so what is it what have how do i rebuild my faith in myself in like my life like what what can i possibly do next like that whole scene could have been omitted but it's at least a glimpse into that that weight of being the expected mother the like domestic uh subservient person that she just doesn't want to fucking do anymore yeah i also wish i feel like there's a i do wish i think that like if the movie had ended

less tragically for her although it's like with the doppelgangers it's sort of the door is open to like how you can perceive that i do feel like you know as it's so like she gets undue punishment because it's like if we're looking at it from like she's looking at it from like she's looking for someone or something to make her feel whole or if not like to make her feel free but not alone which is like whatever the eternal struggle and it's like motherhood hasn't done it this marriage hasn't done it even you know Heinrich hasn't done it so she makes something to fill that void and it destroys her and like that I do feel like that is kind of misogynistic inherently to be like you can't have it all and if you try to

you're going to die which I you know who knows if that's what he's trying to say I just I don't know like it is and it ends up kind of being a tragedy for the two of them in a way that feels I mean at the end of the day mainly unfair to Bob let's not forget Bob innocent Bob child yeah but also feels unfair to Anna because it feels like I mean she never has someone that she can fully be herself with like we see her struggle with like that unable to feel like fully possessed of herself she's just possessed by other people or things and then you know like never sort of reaches that point where she could be herself she dies before she ever gets there and coming from this director in particular that feels mean but i also think that there's ways to view it that can be i don't know

the second act of this movie i find very cathartic and then the end i don't love honestly like i really lose the thread at the end i think the i think the end is like political in a way that i don't quite understand too where it's like you know it seems like it's an attack from East Germany possibly like you know so there is this like political tone to the end that I feel like if you're not in full understanding of what that is it might it felt confusing to me I also don't think Bob needed to die like why did it need to be so fully tragic I don't know why doesn't Bob get a doppelganger riddle me that where's Bob two I mean what about Bob is the sequel no I'm just kidding

exactly yeah does anyone else have anything they'd like to talk about yeah i mean the end is so the end can go either way he could be that she created the devil or that she created god and god is so disturbed like god hates the world so much that he just wants to fucking destroy it so it could be that she created god like it there are many different interpretations there right like that's the read where her doing a staring contest with the crucifix is actually very significant and not just something that happens, which is how I viewed it. That makes sense. I know I said I was in my brain, I'm like, is this her losing faith or is she like having an immaculate conception? Like, right? Because she is like, she's like, ah, like that whole. You're like, she's like, what is that

whimpering? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see your Jesus and I raise you a doppled gang or tentacle god man like beelzebug yeah octopus or something yeah it's i mean ultimately the takeaway from this movie is a shrug and it depends on who you are and what you're bringing to the table 100% but it doesn't but in the same way it doesn't feel like underthought if anything it feels overthought and there's like too much go it's not like oh the plot's too thin it's like no there's just there's too much going on who knows yep indeed it doesn't pass the bectal test and no yeah i mean anna is very isolated she has one friend margie who she doesn't actually interact with except to stab her off screen and who also even if she is a friend is not a good

friend to her we know and then there's helen who we don't really know what's going on there either is that just kind of like a weird pretty also when isabella johnny is the helen character she looks so much like dakota johnson to me that i was getting very distracted the bangs the bangs yeah and that she has like kind of the same just like long auburnish hair all of a sudden it's materialists right but uh anyway helen i do i don't know what to make of that character exactly all this to say does not pass the Bechtoe test. But what about our

nipple scale? In which we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Oh, God. And we're just not really sure, are we? Yeah, no.

This is tough. I'm going to go like one, like a because I feel like our scale is where intention needs to be considered. Yeah. Yes.

And I think that he isn't not thinking about how Anna feels, but most of what I got out of the Anna character, I didn't view as intended by the director. Yeah. Intention is very important here. And I don't think the intention of Zuloski was to be like, yeah, definitely empathize with this woman who's behaving awesomely. I do think that he's he I don't know the furthest I can get is like he's thinking about this woman he's thinking about her he seems like he wants to understand her but also kind of gives up at some point

and I feel like that's where the adjani performance really does like and the sam neal performance I feel like they're doing so much heavy lifting where it's like if yeah if they're not fully committed this movie sucks yeah yeah so with all of that in mind I I'll give the movie one nipple and I'll give it to the tentacles. Or do I give the movie one tentacle? I know, you know, is this the tentacle scale this episode? On one of eight, one of eight tentacles? I'd still give it one, I think, one tentacle.

I think, right. Well, the creature has, I think, three tentacles, one for each arm and then one large one where its legs would be. So maybe out of three tentacles. I don't, you know, hard to say. I'm going to give it one nipple. I am going to give it to one tentacle and shout out to tentacles, The Octopus from Legend of Titanic, the animated film that stole the plot of James Cameron's Titanic. And also an American tale and also Anastasia.

Yes. Who can say why? We don't know. I'm going to give it one nipple as well and I'm going to give it to Isabella Ajani. Just an iconic performance that she should not have had to suffer the way she did to make possible. Yeah, right on. It's the same for me. One, because we're talking about intent. So, yeah. And I would definitely give it to Isabella Johnny. She's iconic. And yeah. What a film. Thank you so much for being here, Alicia. Truly. Yeah, no, thank you for having me. This is so awesome to talk about. Oh, my gosh. What a treat. Where can people follow your work and your social media, etc? So I'm under the, another pun, I'm under the handle at Benny and the Jesuits, so a play on Dune's priestesses, spelled like the Benny Jeserate priestesses. And my website is Benny and the Jesuits.

And my latest thing is that I just put out my most recent issue of Resident Easel, which is Western horror, done entirely in like black and white and toned tan. goodness and I cover the films nope brimstone tremors the burrowers prey and ravenness that sexy sexy movie cool hell yeah you can follow us on instagram you can subscribe to our patreon aka matrion where you get two bonus episodes every single month as well as access to our back catalog with that let's all go lay down in a bed full of goo? Hell yeah. Yeah, let's all get fucked by our worst fears tonight. Okay.

In a fun and sexy way. In a really passionate hot way. Yeah. While Sam Neal just has to stand there. Sounds great. Bye. Bye. Bye.

And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. The murder of an 18-year-old girl in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved for years, until a local housewife, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And to binge the entire season ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at him and said this isn't a joke. A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old. And a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago.

How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again? Listen to heavyweight on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with the one, the only, Cardi B. My marriage, I felt the love dying. I was crying every day. I felt in the deepest depression that I had ever had. This shit was not given to me.

I worked my ass off for me. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF disrupted, The Kind Body Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a text. startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patience. You think you're finally like in the right hands. You're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.