The Bechdel Cast - Pretty Woman with Andrea Werhun and Nicole Bazuin

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

On this episode, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guests Andrea Werhun and Nicole Bazuin -- the filmmakers behind the documentary Modern Whore -- join to discuss Pretty Woman (1990)! Not listening to this? Big mistake! Huge! Check out Modern Whore, available for digital rental and purchase! Follow Andrea on IG at @weenerwoman and Nicole at @nicobazuinSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Strait, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On the Becdellcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Becdo cast.

Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. Look at this necklace I got you. Whoa. That's so nice. that part of the movie was giving me Calhawkely giving the heart of the ocean to Rose. It is a very low stakes heart of the ocean. Yeah.

Yeah, very low stakes. Yeah, because he's just borrowing it, right? You didn't even buy it for her. It's a loner. We're not worried about where it comes from. And I think that it gets returned, you know, without a problem. I feel like it's Deus X necklace. But you're just like, no, it just ends up being a nice necklace.

And then it snaps closed and she goes, with all 5,000 of her teeth. And we love and worship every single one of them. We sure do. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Laughness and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens and using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion.

Caitlin, what is the Bechal Test? I'll tell you, it is a mediometric created by, dear friend of the show Alison Bechdel first appearing in her comic Dykes to Watch Out for. It requires that for our standards, because there are many different versions of it, but for us, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? And we particularly like it when it's narratively meaningful and not just throw away dialogue that could be cut from the movie and it would make no difference. So today we are covering, we're sort of like, I think this is sort of the theme of

the tenure of the podcast. We've been covering so many movies that you would think we would have covered in the last 10 years, but somehow we didn't. One of the most, I think, influential movies of its generation, one of the most successful movies in all of movies at the time of its release. We are at long last covering Pretty Women 1990, directed by Gary Marshall and written by a writer named J.F. Lawton. I don't know. And we have two incredible guests to cover it with you. Just a little peek behind the curtain.

We're recording this in the future. And I just wanted to say it. We could have talked about this movie for five consecutive hours. Yes. This is a rich, rich, rich text that there's been a lot of different reactions to over the years. There is definitely stuff we didn't have time to get to. because of time constraints for this episode. If there is a perspective or a thought you had about this movie that we didn't cover in the space of this episode, we'd love to hear it.

Either, you know, reach out to us on social media or especially if you're a member of our Patreon, aka Matrion. It's a fun place to have community discussion as well. Yeah. Yeah. With that, let's get into it. Let's get our guests in the mix. They are the filmmakers behind Modern Horror. director Nicole Bezine and writer-performer Andrea Warehan.

Welcome. Thank you. Thanks so much for being here. Yeah, we're so excited to be talking to you about this movie and to be talking to you about your movie. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thanks for having us.

We're so excited. Of course. The pleasure is all ours. Let our listeners know a little bit more about the documentary and sort of how it came together over the years. Yeah. So Modern Horror is a hybrid documentary directed by myself and co-created with Andrea Warehun, who is the subject slash star, because this is a hybrid documentary where she not only talks to, you know, the audience about her experiences as a escort and stripper working in Toronto, she also acts out those experiences in a series of highly stylized reenactments that

really run the gamut from humorous to uncomfortable to sad or scary, but ultimately that we want to be joyful and offer something new in terms of sex work representation. Yeah, it's really enjoyable and affecting to watch. We're curious, because at the top of, of the documentary, you say that in movies, books, media in general, sex workers are usually depicted as either victims or villains. And because our show is all about representation in media, could you talk a little bit more about your impressions of the way sex workers are represented on screen, traditionally, historically, etc.? Yeah. It's not pretty.

It's not pretty woman And the hooker usually ends up dead Or is the punchline Or is, you know, pretty woman, obviously We've got the hooker with a heart of gold story But we've also got a hooker in a dumpster At the beginning, yeah Yeah, right at the beginning to set us up

Like that's what we expect when we see sex workers on screen So yeah, I think that that's like the general sort of a range of depictions that we see from the brains of voyeuristic civilians with their nefarious intentions when it comes to depicting us on screen. It's we're we're like manic pixie dream horrors, you know, we show up to further the plot, but we don't actually ever get our own stories. We don't have nuanced narratives. It's very like one note.

And yeah, we usually end up dead. Totally. So many tropes. so many, you know, the object of the punchline kind of thing. And you use the documentary to sort of expand, I mean, bringing in your friends who are sex workers and also just a diverse group of perspectives in sex work specifically. Yeah, how did that come together? And I don't know, I really appreciated that there was, especially after watching Pretty

Woman, a diverse group of sex workers and artists with nuance and, you know, like, just all this and everyone's so funny anyways. What was it like sort of bringing this group together for the movie and kind of revisiting this period of your life? Well, I'm happy to say that, you know, all of those sex workers that are featured in the film are people have collaborated with artistically in the past and they're friends. So like there are people that I know they're not just, you know, figures of representation to be dropped into the film to check a box.

You know, these are real life people. that I know that are making art or, you know, living their lives and doing advocacy and also come to this work with, you know, vastly different backgrounds and experiences. But at the end of the day, what we all have in common is that we believe that each and every sex worker deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, you know, regardless of that experience. So it was great to get them all on board to be in the film, you know, pretty early on the process. And those interviews in the film arise out of, you know, continuous conversations with them about what they feel comfortable talking about on screen, you know, what we wanted to bring to life in the movie.

What were the topics related to sex work that we never get to see on screen? And, you know, all of those sex workers brought something of themselves and what they feel like they never get to see to the movie, which is, you know, enormously incredible. And I think it was really important since this was an adaptation of my memoir. You know, it's a very prescient critique that I am a cis white femme who has written a sex work memoir. Like, you stop me if you've heard this one. It's a common thing. And we need to be able to, you know, open the door to other sex worker experiences and other sex worker voices to be able to tell their own stories. It's extremely important and understanding that like, I'm not going to be able to do that and I shouldn't do that.

That's not my role. I'm not here to speak for anybody. It's important for sex workers always to be able to speak for themselves. Totally. And it's really impressive the wide range of topics that you cover with your collaborators, colleagues, fellow sex workers. You're talking about the criminalization of sex work. You're talking about the importance of community. You're talking about not being given opportunities to meet your fellow co-workers and experience solidarity in some cases.

You talk about shame. You talk about romantic relationships. You talk about trauma porn. Like there's so many. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. The parentheses, Titanic reference. I love it. You know what, Rose was posed.

nude, I guess not for money, but like one of the French girls. She pays him. Exactly. Yes, yes. You're in. I'm going to bring her into the fold. Right. And so because you're such a huge advocate of the importance of sex workers telling their own stories, what are some ways you would like to see representations of sex work and sex workers in fiction, in movies, in movies, in, television. Yeah, and are there any specific, you know, productions, movies, books, whatever it is, that you're like, more people should be talking about this. Yeah, definitely. I think, like, if we want to see representations of sex work change, we need to give decision-making positions on TV and film sets to sex workers. You know, sex workers need to be writing their own

depictions. We need to be directing these films. We need to be producing these. We need to be producing these films, editing these films, opportunities need to be given to sex workers on any production that is about sex work. If you don't have a sex worker with decision-making power on that set, I just don't think that representation is ever going to be accurate. So we need to pay sex workers to do that labor. And, you know, I hope one of the sort of impacts of the film is that people understand just like how many sex workers are also artists. Totally. You know, we, who can afford to be an artist in this economy?

Like, nobody's doing that. Yeah, no one. Unless you're a Nepo baby. Like, you come from generational wealth. Like, you have those connections. Good for you. Most of us have to work for a living. And sex work just presents this opportunity to make a solid amount of money in a short period of time with a flexible schedule that really works well as artists.

And so there is no. shortage of artistic talent and I'm thinking about like you know the labor of producing it's really not that different from being an independent sex worker and you have to manage all of these different things at the same time you're doing all these jobs of course you could be a producer on a film and and one sex work shouldn't ever be a barrier to accessing these these jobs on a film set and so I just you know I think that that's going to be really important for turning the page on, you know, thousands of years of representation of sex work that don't involve us doing that labor. But of course, like, I'm thinking about fuck toys. Like, fuck toys is an amazing,

amazing film. Shout out to Anna Perna. Like, truly, that film is so, it feels like the future of sex work cinema. And it's such a thrill to be kind of, like, out with our movies at the same time. We've talked a lot together. We haven't been able to meet in person yet. Shout out to the U.S. border for everything. But, you know, one day we will meet and we'll be so, so, so, so happy. But yeah, that film is like a really good example of sex workers being in charge of that representation and demonstrating just how fucking talented we are and that we have an eye that no one else has

when it comes to our labor. Absolutely. We've got to cover us. Fuck toys. It's so good. You have to. So good. Is there anything else you two wanted to say about your film before we chat about Pretty Woman?

I'll say one more thing. So our film starts with Andrea making the assertion that, you know, the typical depictions of sex work are typically victim or villain archetypes. And, you know, she also offers something along the way that could be a new archetype called the femme vitale as opposed to a femme fatal. So certainly I think this is a film that just feels like a natural fit to have your lens on. And I'm just really excited to have had you highlight our project and think about, you know, furthering the representations of sex work and having that kind of thoughtful. about the way that these archetypes exist on screen. Totally. One of the closing sentiments of the documentary is wanting to move away from the representation of a sex worker needing a white knight to come and rescue them.

And I don't know if that was a direct reference to Pretty Woman or if it was just more of a reference to a general trope. But man does this movie? I think it can be both. Yeah. We're so, we're so. excited about the baby and like truly in the first 10 minutes I was like oh our listeners are going to flip for modern horror so congratulations I'm just like so stoked thank you yeah let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss pretty woman so this is a podcast about video games kind of it's also about friendship definitely and chaos unavoidably welcome to it's dangerous to go alone a podcast where we talk games culture and nostalgia and immediately go off topic there is no gatekeepers

There is no skill check. If you win a game on easy mode, we support you. If you've never touched a controller, honestly, same energy for some of us. It's fun, it's chaotic, it's friendship with a loose gaming theme. And somehow we keep getting away with it. You should listen. Stream it's dangerous to go alone on the free IHeartRadio app. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, Help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group? The worst?

Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open.

Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle. aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. There are times when the mind becomes a difficult place to live.

This is David Eagleman with the Inner Cosmos podcast, and for Mental Health Awareness Month, we're dedicating a series to understanding the mind when it struggles. I'm joined by doctors, researchers, and those with lived experience. We'll talk with singer-songwriter Jewel about anxiety. I started living in my car, and then my car got stolen. I was shoplifting. I was having panic attacks. I was agoraphobic. And making it through hardship.

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and the science of how the brain can change. This is a month of deeply personal and honest conversations about what happens when the brain goes off course and what we can do about it. Listen to Inner Cosmos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Ryder Strong and Will Ferdell from PodMeets World.

And now the PodMeets Twirled podcast. We're two men who were completely clueless to reality TV, who now have covered Dancing with the Stars, traitors, and we're gearing up for the season finale of Survivor. So yeah, now we're experts. I know we annoyed a lot of our listeners by our severe lack of survivor knowledge. That is the point of the show. I'm just going to remind you. watched some Survivor.

I obviously haven't watched enough. Did people not like it? Like what was... Yeah. Just because we... Yeah. We'll be recapping the big conclusion of the 50th season from the final attempts at gameplay to the desperate pleas of finalists

to a bunch of... Ha, ha, who. Again, we are experts. So make sure to tune in to Pod Meets Twirled for all our Survivor 50 takes. Listen to PodMeets Twirled on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Before we get into the recap, what are your respective histories with the movie Pretty Woman?

I've been reflecting on when I would have encountered this film for the first time. And I think I would have been a tween. I think I might have been 12 when I watched this for the first time. And, you know, I was a kid who, when I heard the Cinderella story as a bedtime story, my immediate response was, again. You know, I loved that kind of story. of, you know, the Cinderella story. And so I think I was certainly a prime target for that kind of film being charming, you know.

And I also really loved and have always loved My Fair Lady with Audrey Hepburn from 1964. So, you know, both stories have that Cinderella element. And also both stories have that Pygmalion origin that's in there. Definitely. Exactly. So, you know, I think that they kind of played into this core fairy tale, satisfying makeover comedy story that I really, you know, felt into, felt engaged by, you know, you love the Roy Orbison song right off the bat. It's just so wonderful. And so to revisit that film, again, over the years, it becomes one of the of those films that's really interesting to revisit at different points in your life and see your perceptions of it evolve. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Andrew, how about you? I don't have anything nearly as eloquent to say about my association with Pretty Woman. I don't recall ever having like a super strong reaction to it. I also tend to have an aversion to anything. I feel like I'm

supposed to watch or I'm supposed to like. So there's like a bit of an avoidance. And, there, but obviously as a sex worker, it's the penultimate sex worker film, you know. So I feel like I felt kind of like neutral or maybe avoidant about it. Fair. And rewatching it this weekend to talk about it was such a revealing experience for myself. Oh, I can't wait to learn more about that. Caitlin, what about you? I actually don't know your history with this movie.

I saw it for the first time during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005. And then I think maybe once or twice since then. So I've seen it two or three times over the years. But it had been probably 10 or 15 years since I most recently saw it. So it was interesting to go back. You know, there are those iconic moments that everyone remembers from it, like the bubble bath scene and the like snapping the necklace case shut. all those iconic moments, the red dress. The big mistake huge.

The big mistake huge. I sort of forgot that that was where that came from. I'm like, I've said that having no idea where it came from. So I remembered those, but yeah, it was definitely interesting, rewatching, especially in the context of having just watched the documentary, modern horror. So there's so much to talk about. Can't wait to do it. Jamie, what's your history with it?

Andrea, similar to you. Like, I avoided this, like, this and like the Godfather, like all of these movies that I was just like, I don't need to watch this. And actually, it's cool that I haven't. And I stand by that. But I did, I saw this movie for the first time last year because this is a movie that we've gotten requests for for years because I mean, it's, I guess something I didn't realize when I finally did watch it was how, like, I knew. was obviously a very influential movie, but that this was like the highest grossing R-rated movie until like last year.

It made half a billion dollars in 1990, which is terrifying. It was the fifth highest-grossing movie of the time just behind Star Wars, E.T., an Indiana Jones movie and Jaws. That's how much of a worldwide phenomenon this movie was. I knew it was a classic, but like in people talk about it a lot. But yeah, I was not aware of like just how big a movie it was in its time.

I love Julia Roberts, but as this movie goes on, it just gets more and more frustrating. And by the end, I'm like tearing the skin off my face. And I have no attachment to it. So by the last scene, I'm like screaming at the television like at the sports game. But yeah, I don't know. I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. Let's dive into the recap.

and we'll go from there. Okay, quick content warning at the very top because there's a brief moment toward the end of the movie that involves physical and sexual assault. We meet Edward Lewis, played by Richard Geer. He is a businessman who's in L.A. for a work trip.

He leaves at the party he's at, takes his lawyer, Phil Stucky, is his name, his car, and he's played by Jason Alexander. Yeah, the first shot of the movie is Jason Alexander doing close-up magic, which was not on my pingo card for things that would happen in this movie. It's not him, but he pops out right behind the magician, almost like a magic trick. And so it looks like him, but it's a different guy. That's disappointing to hear.

I know, I know. But anyway, Edward Lewis, he drives off in this car and he's trying to get to Beverly Hills, but he's getting lost along the way. Meanwhile, we meet Vivian Ward, played by Julia Roberts. She is a sex worker who is getting ready for work that night. She's broke. She has to climb out of the window to avoid her landlord. She heads into a club and confronts her roommate kit,

played by Laura San Giacomo, who used their rent money to buy drugs. And so they need to make some money ASAP. and they start working their section of Hollywood Boulevard, and that's when Richard pulls up and asks Vivian for directions for Beverly Hills. She gets in his car to personally escort him to his fancy hotel, and when they arrive, he invites her to join him. They go up to Edward's penthouse room, she's getting looks from the stuffy, rich people inside,

she's mocking them. And then when they're settled in the room, she's expecting that Edward wants to have sex right away. But he doesn't want to rush things, and he pays her to stay the whole night. And eventually after like chatting, lounging, watching some I love Lucy, she starts to undress.

He asks what she's willing to do. She says everything except kiss on the mouth. So instead, she kisses him on the penis. The next morning, he reveals what he does for living, which is to buy. Which is the worst answer ever. Oh, my God. Every, like, romantic lead in 90s rom-coms have, like, a truly horrific job.

And it gets worse. His job gets worse because he ends up building warships. He's like Mr. Military Industrial Complex. And then at the end, he's like, all right, you can continue to build naval destroyers. You're like, how are we rooting for this? I don't know. Yeah, no, it was horrible. But currently his job is to buy and sell multi-million dollar companies.

And so the contrast between these two people's lives is becoming more and more clear because he's rich, highly educated, very prim and proper. And doing evil shit. It seems like without naps. Like no naps, no bathroom breaks. He's full-tie people. Not sleeping, not eating. Yeah.

But as he points out in the film, they both do the same thing for a living. They both screw people for money. Yes. Yep. It's like, nice try movie. One is a noble profession and the other one is whatever the fuck he's doing. I don't know if I go somewhere I was calling it a noble profession. But anyway, the contrast, so he's rich and all this stuff, she's broke, scrappy, a high school dropout.

Despite their differences, Edward tells her he's going to be in town for a week and that he would like her to spend that week with him. And they negotiate a rate of paying her $3,000 for the week. He also gives her money to buy, quote unquote, more appropriate clothing. So she goes to shops on Rodeo Drive, but she's getting more dirty looks from the shopkeepers. Some even tell her to leave. So she gives up and returns to Edwards Hotel, where she's hassled by the hotel manager, Bernard, Barney. I feel like it will always be Joe from the Princess Diaries to me. And he's basically playing the same character in this movie.

Okay, here was a thought I had. and I'm sure it's not an original thought, but Princess Diaries is pretty woman for a PG audience. Like, junior. To the point, it has some of the same cast and the same director, Gary Marshall. Well, that's, yeah, that's Hector Alizondo, I think, is in every single Gary Marshall movie. I'm pretty sure that they're like, they're tight. Best buds.

Yeah. And then Larry Miller is in both movies, aka Paolo Putaniska. Oh, my God. I always forget. It's like, who is that? It's always Paolo Putneska. It's always, yeah. Every time. Because he plays one of the shopkeepers in Pretty Woman.

Yeah. The obscene amount of money. Yeah. Yes. And so this hotel manager pulls Vivian into his office to kind of reprimand her or maybe kick her out. But they reach an understanding. And then he arranges for her to go to a boutique where she'll be taking care of. And so she goes and gets a cocktail dress for dinner that night, followed by her returning to Barney for help with, like, dinner etiquette.

Which is like literally what he does in the Princess Diaries as well. Just that it's a little typecast. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, this is the guy who teaches you what fork to use for some reason. I also thought it was very Kathy Bates in Titanic coded where she's like, start on the out fork lesson. Start on the outside and work your way in. Wow. Fork lessons of cinema history. Yeah, where's the supercut of that?

Okay. So that evening, Vivian and Edward go to dinner with a business associate of Edwards, this guy named Mr. Morse and his grandson. But the dinner doesn't go well for anyone because Vivian is struggling with the utensils and the food. Edward is insulting the guys about the purchase of the... their company. So they're pissed off and they storm away. Okay, but they are charmed by her. The nobody's mad at Vivian. Right. To be fair. Like it's not like, oh, she's a dumb whore.

She's just fucking everything up. But it's more, she's just like goofy Lucille balling. Yeah. Totally. I mean, to know Vivian is to love her. And I, I mean, it's also like Julia Roberts. She's so perfect. She's so charming. Yeah. Yeah. And so after dinner, Edward and Vivian, debrief. And this is the scene where they realize maybe they have more in common that they than they thought. They both screw people for money. They also have to detach emotionally to be able to do their jobs. And then a little later, they're canoodling. And he keeps trying to kiss her on the lips. But she's like, uh, uh, uh, that's too intimate. So now they're just like caressing each other on top of a grand piano. That scene to me is very hot. It is. Yeah.

Yes. The piano fuck. I mean, it literally felt like, I was like, oh, I would watch the porn version of this. I'm sure it exists. Yeah. I would like to see it. There are like men in the room that I think like hotel staff that he sends away. I'm just like, okay.

That's using your power for good. Yeah. I was like that for some reason, that detail in that scene is so hot. Like, I don't know. He's like, please leave. I have to fuck on this piano. And they're like totally. We get it.

They're like, exactly, exactly. Yeah. Okay, so the next day... Okay, I did notice in the credits that that was an original Richard Geer song that he was playing. No kidding. He got the music credit for that. Yeah.

Richard Gear, I mean, it's like, I'm not going to call him underrated. He's pretty rated, but he's great. And he has excellent politics, which is like you rarely get both. Yeah. Also, maybe the only actor who has played a sex worker in American Gigolo and a client in Pretty Woman? Shout out to him. He's the real MVP. He's the real MVP. I still haven't seen an American

jiggle-up. You have to. Do you like it? Okay, cool. I fucking love it. It's really good. I need to see it too, yeah. Okay, so the next day, Vivian goes shopping for more clothes. This is when we get the famous shopping

montage while Roy Orbison's song Pretty Woman is playing and she buys a bunch of, again, quote unquote, appropriate, elegant, upper class clothing. Meanwhile, something, something business, Edward is rethinking buying Morse's company because of something that Vivian said, maybe. Which never really, nothing really ever comes of that.

Because I really love that she goes out of her way to make an excellent point, which is you don't build anything, you don't make anything. You suck, like you kind of suck. Your job is made up. and he repeats that, but then sort of just continues to do it. Or he's like, oh, no, that's why. But that's why he lets the guys keep their military, industrial complex business at the end. And he's like, you make weapons of mass destruction.

And I'm going to help. You're like, no, this is the business to shut down, Edward. Yeah, no, it's nuts. Yeah, he's like, oh, I guess I should build and make things. I know. Like naval destroyers. War crime devices. Start an Etsy shop.

Like, come on. I love that he, like, came to that after what, literally taking his socks off and walking on grass. Yes. He goes out. I love the scene where I wrote down like Edward touches grass for the first time. He's like, you know what? I'm going to let them do it. Build those ships.

It's nuts. He has like so many love interests in this era of rom-com. He's just useless. He's useless. But so rich. That's true. He is. He reminded me a lot.

I was thinking a lot about Tom Hanks in You've Got Mail, who to me is like the evil rom-com protagonist because he's like shutting down Meg Ryan's bookstore. Yeah, he's Mr. Barnes & Noble or whatever. I don't know. Anyway, then we cut to a polo match that Edward brings Vivian to. All the rich people are like, who? is that woman that Edward is with? And then Phil Stucky thinks that she's there to commit corporate espionage. And Edward is like, don't worry, she's a sex worker, except he uses different language than that.

So then Phil goes up to her being like, Edward told me what you do for a living. Maybe we could get together sometime. He's being very sleazy about it. And Vivian is hurt and pissed at Edward. about this, and she wants to call off the rest of their arrangement, but he apologizes and asks her to stay. She says, okay, just don't hurt me again. They canoodle some more in bed. She tells him her backstory, including how she got into sex work, and he says, You're so bright and special. You could be so much more than that.

And we'll talk about that. then they're getting ready for an evening out. This is the necklace case snap thing. They board a private jet to San Francisco, where he takes her to the opera. She's incredibly moved by it. The next day, this is the, like, Edward takes off work to touch grass with Vivian. And, oh, my gosh, are they falling in love? He's doing that, like, he's, like, reading her Shakespeare.

quotes in the park. You're just like, it's so, it's so corny. I was there, I don't know, it would work for some. For me, I was like, if I was held hostage in someone's arms while they read Shakespeare quotes to me, I would not, I just wouldn't love it. But to each their own. I feel like we have to remember that this man has never apparently taken a day off in his life. And she's the one who's like, come on, just take a day off. Just try not working for once. And so maybe he's just cosplaying as somebody and like thinks that's that that's what the leaves do is what you're supposed to do look like yeah it's reading shakespeare quotes in the park yeah you're like i've heard of shakespeare in the park is this it is this out of but anyway so they're like really

vibing and they even kiss on the lips turning point yeah then it's their last day together but he wants to see her again and basically like set up a whole new life for her with an apartment, a car, access to his money to go shopping. But that's not enough for her. She wants a dashing night on a white horse to come and rescue her, meaning she wants love, romance, intimacy. And he's like, that's nice, but I'm not capable of giving you that right now. He can't afford it. Yeah, his, his, his, emotional currency, his bank account is empty. He's like, I have to go negotiate a weapons of mass destruction deal. I don't have time for intimacy. For love. Yeah. We cut to Edward in his meeting with Mr. Morse. And Stucky is furious that Edward is bailing on this very lucrative deal.

So Stucky takes it out on Vivian, pays her a visit in the hotel room, tries to rape her. She's fighting him off. He strikes her. And then Edward comes in and intervenes. But he still isn't able to give Vivian the intimacy slash fairy tale ending that she wants. So she leaves and packs up her things and is about to move to San Francisco. Meanwhile, Edward is heading to the airport, but he decides to have the limo driver take him to Vivian's apartment. She looks out the window and there he is a night on his white stallion limbo thing. And he climbs up the fire escape to her apartment even though he's afraid of heights. And he quote unquote rescues her and they kiss.

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And we'll let the two of you sort of lead us here. What was sticking out to you on this viewing of pretty woman? I felt honestly struck by the Lucille Ball reference. When she is sitting at Edwards' feet on their first night and watching TV and Lucille Ball is just being a little ham, I think that there was like a connection being made between what she does as a sex worker and what Lucille Ball is doing as this like entertainer as this comedian. Because I think that's sort of what Julia Roberts is bringing to that role is this like goofy, goofy girl vibe. And I just, I don't know, I felt like the genuine connection that Lucille Ball has with an audience being a woman comedian and how few women truly have been able to break out and be as successful as she has been. Like even still, you know, men still dominate the industry.

Yeah. I just thought that that was such an interesting thing for her to watch and be delighted by. And then also using that moment to initiate the action with her and Edward. I just like, there's something about being a sex worker when you're with a wealthy client and you're being paid a lot of money for your time and you do get to just be a goofball. That is a hidden world that most people will never penetrate. but I really related pretty hard in that moment. Sure.

And I thought it was quite an insightful connection. Yeah. It definitely feels like, you know, the escargo scene feels a bit of Lucy. But interestingly, the director, Gary Marshall, was a writer on I Love Lucy. So it's a little bit of an Easter egg for his prior work. Wow. That also stuck out to me on this viewing because it seems like they, like, she's, they're interacting with different media throughout the movie and it always feels very, very

intentional. They go see La Traviata, which is about a sex worker who falls in love with a rich guy. I think that she's literally watching my fair lady at one point or like watching the ending of it. And starting with Lucy, it just, I don't know, put you in a good headspace. Yeah, because I think for all this movie's flaws, it is worth noting that this is a movie and one that, again, was a huge box office success. Everyone saw this movie. Yeah. And it's about a sex worker who is one of two main characters. So she's not a side character. She's not a plot device. She's not the punchline of a joke. She's actually a protagonist that is given a personality and a sense of humor. And she is shown as someone who is worthy of love. And these are things that we

typically don't get when it comes to the representation of sex workers. So the bar is on the floor, to be fair. It is. It is in hell. It's in hell. But that's something. Yeah, I'm curious what what you both made of Vivian, like looking back on Vivian as a character in 2026. I mean, I honestly, felt utterly charmed by her, to be honest. And I don't, I guess, like, meeting her in 26 or, like, reconnecting with her again. I, I was surprised by how moved I felt. And actually, in a strange way, how grateful I was for that white night ending. I actually found myself really happy that she got a happy ending. Fair. Totally. I was curious. I, I think it's just, the happy ending was hard for me because he's just like he's such a piece of shit but it was interesting

learning about like the background of how much this movie changed before it like made it to the screen this is literally a Disney movie which I was also not aware of but that it seems like you know while this movie plays into certain tropes the original script played two completely different tropes around sex workers. It was originally a very dark movie called 3000 that was, I mean, worth saying is written by a straight guy who, from what I can tell, had no actual connections to sex work and was far more, you know, that I think in the original version, Vivian was struggling with drug addiction, that she had been. a sex worker for much longer than the Vivian of the eventual movie is, and that there is

like a very sort of tragic, they don't end up together. They don't, the happy ending doesn't happen in the original version of the script. Yeah, it was written as a, is a cautionary tale. Yes. Yeah. And we have a million of those. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Also, I think the thing I like about that ending too, and this might be controversial to say because I know that we're, you know, the sex worker justice refrain is we don't need to be saved. You know, we don't need a man to save us. Like, we can easily take care of ourselves. The fact of the matter is, I know so many sex workers personally, for whom being, quote unquote, retired by a client, by a whale, you know, which Edward is, is actually the goal.

The goal is actually marrying an extremely rich guy and being set for life. Some people do sex work for that reason. And I think that that's accurate. And I am actually happy for her that she was able to like set those terms for herself beyond the like, I've set you up with an apartment baby and you're going to be, you're going to be okay. And she's like, I want more than that. And he earned that as far as I'm concerned. As far as a client goes, that's a great client.

It's good for her, girl. And she does say at the end in response to him rescuing her is that she rescues him right back. And they do underscore that notion. I think they do writing-wise try to set up these two characters. What are their dreams? What are the things that might be holding them back? They're really taking pains to set up what's holding Edward back in terms of his his need to control everything, his fear of heights feeling symbolic in terms of not being

willing to go outside of his comfort zone. So certainly this is a bit of a manic pixie dream court that you mentioned earlier, Andrea, who comes into his life and disrupts all of that and helps him have his toes bear in the grass, et cetera. She's like, here, wear this wacky tie that you would never wear otherwise. He's like, it is like a tie with a little pattern on it. He's like, I don't know. I don't know. It's true, but I did feel like his outfit in that scene with the tie was my favorite thing that he won. Yeah. It was a really good passion movie. So she really did well picking that tie. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, in response to, you know, you highlighting that the film initially had this other ending, I felt myself watching it this time, especially

knowing we were doing the podcast and trying to pay attention to how they were setting up the characters and the dynamic and the themes, I did feel like. the third act felt a little bit more awkward than I remembered. And I perceived it this time wondering if it was partly because it's trying to fit a new ending on something that initially didn't have a happy ending. And so in that third act, I felt the corniness a little bit more than before of like when he encounters the jewelry box again and you're thinking, oh, he's remembering that moment, you know, on the balcony and he's just confronted with these little remembrances of her. It all felt a little more ham-fisted than I had recalled. But yeah, they got

there and they got to that iconic happy ending, Andrea mentioned, where, you know, there's a lot of moments in this film that I think are beautifully shot, but truly that shot of Julia Roberts with her hair, you know, flowing on the fire escape, looking down at him being. beaming is just is just so gorgeous. I appreciated on this viewing too, just that I mean, there's always like room for more deep characterization of a woman protagonists, but I did like that the movie does go out of its way to say like whether she ends up with Edward or not, she's going to be okay. And that, you know, unlike the original ending of this movie, which sounded really like, irritating was like her and kit going to Disneyland staring into the middle distance thinking about

how maybe dreams don't come true you're like well that that sucks so much um no one needs to see that right right it's exhausting i i liked that things don't seem like they're going to work out with edward but she has a plan B you know like she and and it doesn't i at least i didn't get the feeling that Edward coming back into her life would necessarily disrupt the plans that she had for herself. It doesn't see at least, I mean, what I will say of Edward is he cares what she thinks, even if I think his job is quite evil. He does care what she thinks and values, you know, her perspective on her life and his. So it's like if she wants to go back to school, you do get the feeling that like that's going

to be fine and she'll go back to school and it'll just maybe look a little bit different. Yeah. For me, the big thing was the fact that she ends up with a client, a wealthy one at that, I don't have any problems with that. I have a problem with the way that he treats her along the way because he's quite, I would say mean, he's always telling her, he's like always snapping at her to stop fidgeting and don't sit there, sit over there instead. Like, I don't know. It feels like he's just trying to trying to, a big component of her arc is that he's trying to like, quote unquote, civilize her. Right. The pygmalion of it all. Yeah. Yeah. Like he's introducing her to polite society and he's teaching her respectability politics and he's molding her into the person that he wants her to be where by the end it feels like

a lot of her, maybe not entire identity, but her self-expression with the way she dresses and things like that kind of gets erased because he has molded her into like a polo match watching, like, escargo eating opera lady. But yeah, I'm interested in your takes on that. I mean, they certainly establish him right from his opening scene where he's on the phone breaking up with Jessica and someone who wants his girlfriend to be at his beck and call. Yeah. You know, and then there's a reference back to that where Vivian says, oh, you want me to be your beck and call girl. You know, I just feel like psychologically they're trying to make that association that perhaps he's thinking, oh, you know, I can.

can because I'm seeing a professional and there's money involved and he does refer to her as his employee that he can create a scenario where he can have this woman be at his back and call and that can be the nature of their relationship. And I do think like you said, it produces quite a few uncomfortable sequences as a result of how he treats her. You know, and there's a, I found that fight in the pink room of the penthouse quite emotional to watch, you know, where it builds up to her just about leaving him at that point after he outs her to demon George Costanza. Right. But to Stucky.

He outs her to Stucky. Yeah. And, you know, she really checks his behavior there. And, you know, I'm trying to interpret what the thought is behind it. And I would love Andrea's thought too. But, yeah, it does feel like they're at least trying to suggest, you know, with her stating again, you know, I say, I control who I control the price. I control. I say, you know, what and who and how much.

She's really asserting her own power. And so it does become a power struggle between them. he seems to have to have that journey where he realizes that also with this context, he's not really, he doesn't have the power that he had wanted. And he has to learn about himself to kind of have their relationship grow in the end. I don't know if it fully achieves what they were going for there, but I think that was sort of an aspect. Yeah, I agree with that.

I mean, my heart sank when he outed her at that. the polo match the polo match which was such an interesting scene because she was already being whore-coded because the other women were identifying her as one of you know edward's girls or like the flavor of the week though she's already being stigmatized just by association with edward but you know she's fighting back you know she's like i'm just with him for the sex you know and like asserting herself in that type of a situation. But I think, yes, there's this like pygmalian theme. But fundamentally, it's about clastrig, which is such an important part of being a sex worker.

Is that you, by dawning a particular outfit, you can step into the halls of power and go unclocked, essentially, as a whore. Sure. And I think as a sex worker, it's actually. a very important skill to have. So when he critiques her for fidgeting, for instance, I don't see it as mean. I actually do see it as an instruction for survival in these environments that actually kind of keeps the boat state. Oh, okay. Because she's not outing herself as someone who like has, well, it's, you know, she's not outing herself as poor, right? Like she's not outing herself as a streetwalker. And the thing is like with sex work, it is truly a profession where you can climb the ranks of class to an extent, not like being out as a sex record is a different story. But if you're, and like marriage can be a way of subverting class.

So I guess I have a different relationship to the way that he instructs her, Pygnalian style. I felt that the way that she dealt with being hurt in that. situation felt very real to me and it hit me pretty hard on PMSing. Maybe that's part of it. But it felt very real. And when, you know, Phil comes back and exerts his anger toward Edward against Vivian, like to me, that was a very like real moment. That's, that's part of why men rape women. Yeah. They're just like angry about other things and they're going to, they see a woman and they they want to take what they want and maybe it'll make him feel better, you know, is how he puts it. And the way that Edward reacts to that is important. He has to beat the shit out of his friend.

And he has, and the other thing, too, I clocked in that moment was like, Stucky is also a whore in this situation. He is a paid friend. You think this man is your friend. You've been paying him to be your employee for the last 10 years. He's not your friend. He has no loyalty to you. He's ready to rape a woman that you're being. So in that way, like, whore in the pejorative, like, metaphorical sense, the way that we use whore. Yeah. Someone who just does anything for money. Well, that's what lawyers fucking do. Yeah. So I thought it was interesting that in that moment, he went all in to defend Vivian over this other man he'd been paying for a decade. Yeah, fair. No, thank you for.

contextualizing that because I counted like five or six times where he tells her to stop fidgeting or oh, you look more beautiful when you're not fidgeting. Something about her body language. But yeah, reframing it as he's helping her, I guess, like, mask almost or like he's helping her, like, here's the role that I'm hoping you're able to play. during this week. And if you're fidgeting, that implies discomfort and, like, unfamiliarity with these fancy spaces that I'm taking you to and things like that. So, like, act natural to fit in.

Also, why is she sitting on every surface possible and not chairs? I do love that I'm like, I don't know about the, like, class background of the writer or even at some point, like, who wrote this movie? because the original version was so different. But I was like, maybe it's just someone who's like, what do poor people do? Does I just sit on stuff that aren't chairs? Like she should be trained out of that. That's like house training.

Yeah. She just about sits into a plate of eggs. Like, sit on a chair. It is a lot. Yeah, I guess the piano too. She's just planting. She's planting wherever. She sits on the balcony and is like, I'm going to fall off.

That genuinely stressed me out. No, that all. Every time. Same. I want to, because I know we're operating on kind of limited time, I wanted to talk about Vivian's friendship with Kit and just how sex work as a community is presented as well. Yeah, was there anything sticking out to you there? I mean, like, I adore Kit.

Me too. Yeah. I also adore Kit. And I, you know, yes, we've got some, you know, negative, stereotypical representation embodied by Kit, you know, as far as being the drug adult sex worker who's spending rent money on drugs and is pretty nonchalant about the fact that one of their friends has been founded in a dumpster. Yeah. Almost acting like, well, well, because there's this interesting or bizarre thing where Kit is using drugs and like no job.

judgment. But she's casting judgment on other people who are also using drugs. She's calling a bunch of people crackheads and acting like, well, if they end up dead in a dumpster, they kind of had it coming because they're addicted to crack. But that's not us. So I wasn't sure what to make of that. You know, everybody's always trying to punch down. Doesn't matter. And so I noted this, because so the sex worker who was found in the dumpster, her name was Skinny Marie. And Kit said that it's sad, it's sad that she died, but she was a flake. She was a crackhead. And there was a pimp that was trying to straighten her out.

And, you know, if only she'd gone with a pimp, maybe she wouldn't be in the dumpster. But it, that was stark. It was definitely stark. One thing that I was confused by was the fact that Vivian was so. eager and willing to pass money off to Kit, like in that scene where she leaves money with the good sale of concierge. I was like, okay, first of all, how are you trusting this person who's just like left you totally in the lurch when it comes to your housing and you're going to trust this person with money when you know they've already spent your money on drugs? That doesn't come up again.

That's just a kind of like she takes the money, everything's fine type of a situation. But then at the same time, I do think there's something about Vivian's character, but also about a lot of sex workers where so much of our work, whether it's with our coworkers or our clients, relies on trust. You have to trust that the person you're about to have sex with for money is not going to murder you. You have to trust that your friends are loyal, even if they hurt you on occasion. So I think that there is something very human and real about that trust. even if it's misguided. And I think that's sort of Vivian's whole ammo. Yeah, I was a little thrown by that as well, but it did feel, I don't know, like the energy

of it was just that they will like have each other's back regardless. Because I feel like there's a poorly written version of this where, you know, like Vivian is like, fuck you guys. I'm like doing the escargo thing now. but I appreciate it the moments that the story kind of goes out of its way to show that Vivian has no interest in leaving her community behind just because she is like sort of falling in love with this really rich guy and also that like she I think with the exception of the like women who were huge assholes to her at that boutique there is class solidarity to service

workers throughout in a way that isn't always extended the other way, especially in the beginning of the story, but that they're, I don't know, like, it's usually like little performance choices from Julia Roberts, but that it's clear that, you know, Vivian is, you know, even though she is doing the pygmalion thing to mask in these spaces, she's not like becoming a rich asshole doing this 180 overnight. She, she's like always very third. herself and there is like community and class solidarity in everything she does. We respect it. Yeah.

I like her character a lot. As far as Edward goes on the other hand, I can't, I still can't totally shake the feeling that Edward could have treated her better in certain cases. Also, it struck me that he was so appalled that she charges a hundred dollars. an hour as if to say like well your labor isn't worth that amount of money meanwhile he's dealing in like billion dollar deals and it's like how dare you charge $100 but that's typical yeah that is so typical it is so accurate yeah no totally and also not clear if he's not if he's being like facetious or not I like me there was like a bit of like playfulness there okay

I could see that. Because he doesn't like try to lowball her or like negotiate lower. He's just like, oh, wow. Okay. That's a lot. That's more than I thought. Yeah. Okay.

And I do like that scene where they negotiate and like just to see representation on screen of a woman negotiating for herself and like knowing her worth. And getting what she wants every single time. Yeah. And then and then the button on that scene is she says I would have done it for $2,000. And he's like, I would have paid for. Yeah. And they're like, well, then pay her $4,000.

Yeah, but that's, yeah, that's real. And the thing, too, is like, I mean, I thought it was confusing how, like, you know, she's charging $100 for, you know, the hour. And then he's like, how much will it be for the night? And she says $300. Like, obviously, that's a little, like, question mark. But also, if you've ever been in a position where you have to negotiate your rate, especially on the spot and really quickly, and you've never had to do something that would cost

that much money. It takes a lot of bravery and courage to be able to name a number and stand by it. Totally. And then that's where I think that 3,000 number comes into play. Because even that's a low number for an entire week. Yeah. Right. But if we put ourselves in her position, she's never asked for $3,000 in her life. And the way that she feels after she gets it, like, is just so palpable and so like overwhelmingly that that thrill of asking for something and getting it and knowing that you're going to be taken care of for this period of time i mean that's there's that's it's a good feeling plus the value of that new wardrobe on top of it oh my gosh how much what what was the obscene amount of money that he spent i'm very curious to know um something i'd be curious what everybody

thinks about is the way, I guess like this is more of like a general rom-com thing in general too that you see from the beginning of time through now is that this movie is like critical of class and not like unwilling to engage with class but is still like it feels like very clear that this was like written in during the Reagan administration I guess where it does feel like the goal is to have as much as possible. And like there's. I don't know. I felt like there there is class critique present in this movie, but it's still like the fantasy of, it's a consumerist fantasy to some extent. That, you know, the way that she's treated all of a sudden becomes okay because now there's a rich guy vouching for her, which resolves things for her on this day. But I don't know. Like there's a little bit of movie language there where it's like the goal is to be.

respected by rich people when it's like, well, you know, there's certainly power and a shift in your life that comes with that. But it, I don't know. I mean, in a way that is like unsurprising for a rom-com, it's like a little overly simplistic in a way that felt like, ooh, or like, I felt like there was room in this story without changing the tone or the characters to like be more critical of class and not have the goal be the pygmalion thing to just like be a, you know, assimilate into rich person culture and all the military destroyers there that's the worst of it yeah i agree i think it it feels like jamie you bumping up against the ship you're building you know again being an issue because i think in edwards character development if you want to say that it

feels like you know he doesn't necessarily in the end do something career-wise that actually speaks to who he is. He's actually upholding, you know, the grandpa's dream. Right. And I think they're trying to say that the significance of that is a sort of like symbolic resolution with Edwards' recently deceased dad, who he had this estrangement from, you know, so sort of trying to think of that being like some closure for him. But it doesn't really speak to who he is.

is or what he might want to do. Like I would have loved if somehow they made him less materialistic in the end. But like you said, with the era in which it was produced, you know, this is a film that it's a rom-com and it's going to play into many fantasies. And certainly one of the ones that chooses to do is this kind of fantasy of money being available and flowing and upholding that consumerist fantasy. I kind of felt the same way about Vivian by the end in the sense that we can imagine that she'll no longer be like, you know, working the streets now that she's partnered with Edward now. But is there any hobby or passion or creative endeavor or anything like that that she does want to pursue now that she has the freedom to do so?

but we don't really get a sense of what she likes to do. Does she say something? And I feel like there was room for that. When she's in bed with Edward, does she say something about what, I thought she was a gearhead or something? Am I making that up? Okay, we do learn that.

Yes, which is a Julia Roberts thing. This is like the third Julia Roberts movie we've covered where she's like, I know how to fix cars. And you're like, okay, that is like, that was the 90s dog whistle for, not like other girls. She knows how to fix car. I would have loved if she was like a grease monkey mechanic in the end. Yeah. Like she had their own garage or something.

Oh my gosh. Like if she becomes like Jay Leno with just like an enormous garage full of like 50 cars and she's like restoring classic cars or whatever. That would have been. There was room for that. I think that we could have known more about that. There's room for a sequel. There's a whole world. where maybe Edward becomes anti-capitalist and renounces his way. An extremely pretty woman. Honestly, the way that they just keep legacy sequeling every movie from like the 90s and

early 2000s, I would not be surprised if we see pretty woman do at some point. Yeah, it also does make me ask the question, though, could it be made today and could it be made today by Disney again. Like it had me reflecting again watching this, you know, wow, this was a very specific point in time where this film was able to be made and cast America's sweetheart in the title role. And I also think do so with this kind of these winks that were so fun, like having Richard gear, having been Paul Schrader's American Gigolo, you know, awareness of that in watching this

film gives it a wink. in that casting that I think is so fun and clever. And yeah, I don't know that I would see Disney doing this again, but obviously it was a point in time where it hit and it made all of that money you detailed about, you know. And yeah, it is really interesting to reflect on that. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film? I mean, I don't know if, you know, every sex worker film, every film that touches on sex work needs to be realistic, especially if there's a happy ending. That's my controversial opinion. You know what? Let her have her happy ending. I don't mind. I kind of love to see a sex worker happy in the end. And I love to see audiences cheer for a sex worker and be charmed by a sex worker. I think it's like actually really feel good. And maybe we need more of that. Totally. I mean, because you can, criticize the the trope of a sex worker needing to be quote unquote rescued from their job because that certainly is a pervasive trope.

And you could easily argue that the movie perpetuates that. But also, to your point, sex workers, of course, deserve a happy ending. And to be like centered in the movie as a full person, or at least as full a person as you could be in a movie in 1990. And there is a trope that she's that character engages in and that's the hooker with the heart of gold. And that like she's she's a hooker that doesn't do drugs. And she's not like the other hookers. But at the same time, I don't know, I guess I kind of shrug because I still love to see it. I still love to see a loved sex worker.

I think sex worker should be loved. And the way that she gets her come up, I'm just like. Go Vivian. You go, girl. Yeah. And I think, you know, she, as much as, you know, they're both our protagonists, I think that the audience is absolutely, to me, relating the most to the Vivian character. For sure.

For sure. You know, there are a few things more satisfying cinematically than that big mistake, huge moment, where I think we're also invested in that triumph for her. And it's so palpable. And I think especially that's why I think that that first movement of the film as we see her come into her own and have those wins is so wonderful and satisfying. And just the image of her, it feels like, sure, there's the class drag and there's the pygmalian molding of her. But I'd like to think the positive spin could be like her coming into herself in some way or her expression because, you know, as she's walking down the street and the pretty woman song plays, it's just such a beautiful moment. It really is. I know. Like we talk, we've talked on so many episodes about the trope of a rom-com

has to have a shopping montage or a makeover montage, but some of them are really fun and I like this one. So I'm not mad about it. We're allowed to have fun. And also, I'm remembering that scene where Kit visits her at the hotel, where Vivian is thinking about breaking things off with with Edward and Kit's like, are you not out of your mind? Like are you, what the hell are you? Do not fumble this bag. Yeah. And that's real. I also love that every opportunity they get, Kit and Vivian mock the rich people who are clearly looking down on them. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's like in just like little exchanges. I just like the chemistry between those two actors is so good too. You just like, I don't know, they're so good. But that little moment in that same scene with Kit where she's like, whatever,

poking at Vivian being like, wow, you clean up nice. Easy to clean up when you've got a lot of money. And she's like, yeah. And like there, even though like I think there's like room to criticize it based on like the way that class is presented in terms of like what is the goal. I like that they're all like everyone knows what's happening. Like no one's being naive about it, especially in those moments. And I like honestly one of my only things and a bigger thing for me the first time I saw the movie is I wish Kit came back sooner. I just I think just I love their friendship so much and so much of the movie takes place strictly in the higher on the west side of L.A. and not downtown that like Vivian's community disappears for so long and Kit comes back like really towards the very end. I wish she'd like come back a little bit sooner. They should have done the shopping montage together. Right. It's true. That would have been iconic.

And then she could have used some of that obscene amount of money to buy her friend some clothes. But then, you know, going to the end again, there's that moment of wealth redistribution where Vivian hands over some extra cash to kit and calls it the Edward Scholarship Fund. Right. You know, it's really cool. I like tear up. Yeah, I love that moment. And I think that that's actually so accurate to what sex workers do as far as mutual aid is concerned. We take client money and we pump it back into the community. Love that.

I love that. It's a great movie. And that we hear like Kit, it's a little exchange, but like she's bringing another sex worker who I forget if we like learned her name. But another sex worker is going to be taking Vivian's place in the apartment. Kit's like, oh yeah, I've got this money. You have to pay a little extra rent because I'm going to be like, she's going to continue to be a sex worker, but she's also going to go to beauty school. You like sort of get an idea of like where her life is going now. And also, I mean, it's a tiny thing.

But 1990, the bar is in hell. The fact that, you know, Vivian is leaving sex where Kit is staying and there isn't like a value judgment placed on that in the way that I think a lesser movie might have tried to like present this as an undesirable. fable fate or whatever, but it's like, I don't think that the movie, and certainly not Vivian judges kit at any, I mean, really at any time, like, they're just so, they're just girls. I love them. Yeah. Yeah. There's no, like, envy or anger or like, you're leaving me behind.

It's like, Vivian's getting retired. Yeah. The retirement is the dream. For all of us. No, for all of us. Absolutely. Yeah. Want to be respectful of your time.

Does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yes. It does. Mostly between Vivian and Kit. They do talk about Edward and this guy named Carlos as well, but they also talk about their work. They talk about the specific terms that they've set for their work. We say who, we say when, we say how much. I love that.

So, yeah, it's, I think, passing questions. quite handily. As far as the Bechtelcast nipple scale, though, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Before we started recording, I was going to give this a much lower rating than I'm going to now. This conversation really helped because, again, I was operating on like, he's kind of cruel to her and he becomes a war criminal at the end.

I mean, to be fair, he does. He does. He does. But some of those things have been... Listen, no client. No client is perfect. It's true. It's true.

Some of these things have been re-contextualized for me. So thanks to the both of you for helping me on my journey, helping me on this character arc of mine. It's so important that this movie humanizes sex workers in a way that, again, most movies do not. It gives Vivian humanity. It gives her a point of view. It gives her a character, which again, so many movies struggle to do. Her character is sitting on everything. She's sitting on everything. And she's funny. Like she's got a sense of humor. I love it when a woman is allowed to be funny and think things are funny. Because that's also so rare to see, especially in movies

of this era. I love that she gets a happy fairy tale ending, even if it does fall into some trope territory. I still am not a fan of Edward and his obsession with capitalism and the military industrial complex. Also, I feel like the Phil Stuckey character is there and being as bad as he is to make Edward look not as bad. Also, it's a very white movie. So, I'm going to go three nipples. Ooh. Yeah. I was going to give it 1.5 at the top of the episode, but I've been swayed.

So yeah, three nipples. And I'll give them to Vivian and her friends. Yay. I'm going to go, I'm going to go two and a half. I don't like Edward. I don't like him. I'm happy for her. I think he's so boring.

And, you know, the naval destroyers, I'm just like, sir. could we have left that. But that seems to be like what had to happen in every rom-com. It's not particular to this. It's just a character I can never get on board with. But in any case, I love, love, love Vivian. I love how this movie, I mean, speaking to what you've been saying, the whole episode, Andrea, that this is a fantasy that centers a sex worker very lovingly. And how many movies, especially movies with this level of like impact and cultural importance can we say that for yeah there's plenty of criticisms to be said about it but i i think that it is like a net good movie i enjoy watching it

i love the friendship with with vivian and kit so i'll go i'll go two and a half i'll split the difference i'm going to give one to vivian one to kit and then one half two we didn't have time to talk about her but i always want to acknowledge when there's body doubles in a movie because i feel like it's labor that is very often made invisible. Shelley Michelle, great name first of all, played Julia Roberts body double in some of the intimate scenes in this movie and some of the close-up body shots that Shelley Michelle, as is the poster. The body on the poster, Julia Roberts' head is photoshopped on.

That is, in fact, Shelley Michelle. So shout out to Shelley Michelle at her career peak. Her legs were insured for a million dollars, which is so aspirational. I don't even know how that would work. Wow. But I love that for her. I enjoyed learning about her. My last half nipple goes to her.

Shout out Shelly. Yeah. That's wild. I did not know that. That's funny. I had heard that that she had a body double on the poster. And I wondered at watching it because there's that opening scene where, you know, she's shutting off her alarm clock and her face has the pillow over it.

So I wondered, is that a body devil? It probably is. Yeah. Wow. I think from what I was able to gather, most of the more intimate scenes where you can't see Julia Roberts' face is Shelley, Michelle. Cool. Makes sense. How about the two of you for the nipple scale?

I guess I would give it four and a half nipples. Obviously, you know, we could do without the sex worker dead in the dumpster. Sure. We could do without pimps. We could do. I mean, if you're going to have a pimp, let's have some justice. we could do without the war mongering love interest you know

but all and all you know it's funny because with Edward it didn't even like his occupation didn't even register to me like I wasn't even really paying attention to Edward but I think you're both very right to draw attention to the fact that he is like he's got an evil job

and that's sort of glossed over as just like men in a boardroom yeah yeah but at the same time as a sex worker. We have to suspend our judgment for the men who payas all the time. So I think I literally am just conditioned to do that. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. It says more about me than anything else. Well, we're conditioned to hyper fixate on it because we've been, we've covered a trillion rom-coms. Yeah, right. But I love, I love Vivian so much. I love our little hooker,

Lucille Ball. And I feel better off having rewatch that this weekend. Amazing. Nicole, how about you? Yeah, so, oh, I guess so we are doing half nipples. That's allowed. Yeah. Don't think about it too hard. We're grotesque over here. Yeah. Okay, yeah, I think I'm in the 3.5 nipples. And I agree. I love Vivian. And I love all the fun that's had along the way while still balancing some heavier moments in the film. And I think I do feel emotionally connected to Vivian along the way. And I felt that really strongly this time.

And I just want to say a shout out to Gary Marshall's direction because I love all of the well-choreographed, detailed comedy that he brought to the story. And yeah, creating that Vivian being like a Lucille Ball type, a new type of Lucille Ball heroine. I agree that that's just so wonderful. And yeah, I think as a result, it just bring me back to what Andrea and I want to do with our film, which is, you know, I think of Andrea as a kind of Lucille Ball type. Yeah. Totally. Who has that type of infectious, you know, charisma and her little Jim Carrey rubber face throughout the film as well. And I think she's got people laughing and feeling endearing and charmed.

And yeah, very nippleworthy. Absolutely. Thanks, Nicole. Anytime. And speaking of the doc, tell us where people can find it and watch it and follow you on any social media or check out any other work you'd like to plug. Yeah. So modern horror is going to be available to buy and rent on digital starting May 1st. So please do check it out.

And for myself, I'm on Instagram as Nico Design. Nice. And you can find me on Instagram at Wiener Woman, W-E-E-N-E-R-W-E-R. Perfect candle. Perfect candle, no notes. Yeah, no notes. Thank you so much for joining us and huge, huge congratulations. Thank you.

This was so much fun. Yeah, this is awesome. Come back anytime. Truly, yes, come back to talk about any movie you want. Let's do American Jigolo next. I want to watch it. Love, love, love. It's really good.

Hell yeah, can't wait. In the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast, and you can subscribe to our Patreon, a.k.a. Matrion. It's the best way to support the show. You get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the back catalog. and it's only for $5 a month. That's so much cheaper than $100 an hour. Wow.

No comment. All right. You can also follow us on Instagram is the easiest way to keep up on what's going on with the show. You know, expect some tour announcements later in the year for our 10-year anniversary. And in the meantime, let's get in our limo and go into our house. Happy ending. Wee. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichten. And edited by Caitlin

Durante, ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Vauld. Gorsensky. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guide, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

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