The Bechdel Cast - Prey with Johnnie Jae

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

This week, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Johnnie Jae turn on their Predator vision and chat about Prey. (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @johnniejae on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante, and @jamieloftusHELPSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Click, click, click, click, click. Hey, Jamie, it's me, the predator. Click, click, click, click. Watch out, I'm coming for you.

Click, click, click, click, click, click, click. It's me, the other predator, predator's friend, the Predator. Watch out. I'm coming for you. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click. It's me, the other Predator. Predator's friend, Jamie. Wait, is there any Predator movies with two Predators? Good question. I've only seen, I've seen Predator from 1987, question mark. I've seen Prey, obviously, today's episode. And I've seen one of the Alien vs. Predator movies

I don't so I can't speak to the other the other installments in the franchise but I feel like it's usually a single Mr. Predator he's single doing his business he's single he's just adjusting the single life really when you think about it look and this is the point where some guy on twitter pulls a clip and they're like they didn't even watch all eight predator movies how could they talk about it look welcome to the Bechdel cast my name is Jamie Loftus my name's Caitlin Durante and this is our show where we examine movies from an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point for a larger discussion. Yes. Can I tell you what that Bechdel test is while I'm at it?

I would love for you to do that. All right. Well, look, it's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test, originally made as a joke in a comic strip, but has since evolved to become kind of a metric that's often applied across media lots of different versions of it the one we use to start our discussion is whether there are two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more and it should be some sort of narratively you know relevant discussion yeah so that's how we start our discussion but then we kind of just talk about anything and everything including how the predator

is hot in this movie that we need we'll unpack that later i feel like we need to get our guest involved because I don't feel like we can just make a claim like that and brush past it. I just can't imagine having to stay silent as you are saying that. So we are covering... It's our first recently released movie. We've covered in a while, but we know that our listeners wanted an episode on it.

We wanted to cover it. It's Prey 2022. And that's right. We have an absolutely wonderful guest today. So let's get her in the mix. Certainly. She is a professional indigenous nerd at a tribe called Geek. It's Johnny J. Hey, everyone. Welcome. It's me. Thanks for being here well thanks for having me so we reached out to you because you wrote an incredible piece in a tribe called geek on this movie and we are just interested to hear more of your thoughts um but just to get us started what's your relationship with the movie prey i have a very complicated relationship with the movie Prey. Well, first off, when it first started being put out there that this movie was in the works,

I was really skeptical right off the back because of the way that it was being teased as, hey, everyone, you know, like this movie is being pitched to different studios and it's going to follow a Comanche woman who goes against gender norms and traditions to become a warrior. And as these rumors kind of grew, as you know, like this was developing in Hollywood, you know, it started coming out like this is going to potentially be a Predator movie. Right. And, you know, it's like your spider senses start tingling, you know?

And I was just like, oh, no, this sounds so bad. Because they didn't just say a Native woman, you know, they said a Comanche woman. And at the time that the rumors had started about this movie, I was living in Lawton, Oklahoma, which is where the Comanche Nation is located. And, you know, I've worked with Comanche women. And the one thing that I was just like, what? Comanche women are so fierce. And, you know, like Native women have always kind of been the backbones of our societies and pre-colonization, you know, while there were gender, traditional gender roles, patriarchy and matriarchy were not what they are today for us. Right. You know, like while it kind of describes it now from our perspective, it didn't back then. So, you know, like even though, you know,

men were traditionally warriors, it didn't mean that women couldn't be warriors. Right. And so, you know, like even from several different tribes, you know, there have always been this history of strong Native women who took on those warrior roles. If you had a skill set, you know, even if you weren't a man and it was traditionally a man's role, if you were particularly skilled, nobody was keeping you from using your skills, you know, to be like, oh, you're just a woman, you can't do that. Like that didn't really exist for us because, you know, it was about survival and doing what you needed to survive. So everybody's skill set, you know, it had a place and it was kind of valued. So it wasn't the way that this was kind of being portrayed.

So I can honestly say my relationship is complicated because I was talking crap about this movie since 2016. Anytime a rumor or development would be released, I was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not good. This is not good. Because Disney does not have a good history of Native representation. To say the least yeah that's and then and then upon seeing it I mean this is I'm aware just because I've read your your piece about it but what was your your first reaction on uh seeing the finished product my mind was blown um it was so good I I'm a huge predator fan I love horror and I grew up on Predator and it's always been kind of disappointing like after the first one. And I know a lot of people tend to really love Predator 2. Is that the Danny Glover one? Yes, that's Danny Glover. And there's the debate between which one

is better. But, you know, for me, it was always about the original and everything else was just so disappointing. But I watch them and I'm excited to watch them because it's the predator. And I even have a picture of me with a guy with a predator, life size predator. I went to an antique shop and it turns out that one of the guys that this dude is friends with worked on the original predator like he helped actually cast the predator like all the different pieces that they used and so they started making these for fun and to just kind of have on display in his shop and he sells them and I'm still like let's let me win the lottery so I can at least have two of them because they are so badass. That's so cool.

Oh, my God. Yeah. So, you know, like, I'm a Predator fan. I love the series. And so seeing this movie, like, I was already expecting badness. I didn't have high expectations. But, oh, my gosh. Like, my mind was blown. And I never expected to be crying in a Predator movie,

but I did. And, you know, it was just so good. Like the story was so well developed. The characters were well developed and it was like, it wasn't just horror or action. You know, there was a lot of emotion and there was a lot of history that was being kind of conveyed in a way that was absolutely stunning. So like after watching the movie, I was just like, did I just see that? Like, did that just happen? Yeah. Because the other thing that for me that really hit me in the feelers was the credits. Because, you know, a lot of productions have native consultants. They'll bring people on to help. And they rarely get credit for that help.

You don't really see their names in the credits or anything like that. But watching the credits and seeing the people that they brought in to help with this movie being name checked was incredible because, you know, having lived there in Lawton, Oklahoma, you know, these are people that I've known. They were people that I've worked with on other projects. You know, one of them is Juanita Potaponi, and I'm pretty sure I just butchered her last name but she's a really well-known Comanche scholar and she had passed she just recently passed away and you know to see her having input on the movie and being included like and to see them kind of memorializing her was such a beautiful moment because you know

it just kind of showed that they really valued her input and the input of everyone that they brought in from, you know, individuals within the tribe who were just language speakers or had some cultural knowledge to the language department to thanking the entire tribe. And, you know, I was just like incredibly moved by the credits which who does that that's so when people get credit for something that they usually don't get credit for it's like very meaningful to like receive credit where credit is due so right I mean I don't and I know that we we talk a lot on this show you know, making sure that the proper consulting work is both gotten and paid for. But I feel like that's such a good point that I don't even know that we've touched on is like also receiving the proper actual credit within the film credits in a way that isn't like you're waiting, you know, 500 hours to get to your name in size two font. Yeah, like that is that is extremely significant. And that's so much I mean, we're going to talk about the filmmakers behind this, but it's like,

with without the consulting, this movie would be a fraction of what it is. It's like, I'm so excited to talk about it. Oh, me too. I mean, it's just like, even now, like every I've watched it several times now, because I get something different every single time., it's just like even now, like every I've watched it several times now because I get something different every single time. And it's just so phenomenal. I mean, it is. Jamie, what is your relationship with Prey, with the Predator franchise in general, etc.? I mean, quite a short history with Prey as it just came out. However, I do remember seeing, I didn't realize what a long production history this had. And I do remember at one point looking up, I was

like, well, who is writing this movie? And I remember being slightly perturbed when I saw that it was being co-written by a supervising producer on Jack Ryan I'm like hmm maybe not the kind of writing I'm going to enjoy but I'm so I'm coming into the Predator franchise pretty cold this was my first Predator expanded universe movie and I really really really enjoyed it like I'm really excited to talk about it. I have some thoughts on some things, but for the most part, I just like it's a it's for me, an action movie. Holding my attention is a huge accomplishment. And I really, really enjoyed this movie.

I think that there's so many good performances. The filmmaking is amazing and the attention to detail culturally. I'm very excited to talk about and learn more about. So liked it kitley what's your history with prey i slash predator at large sure sure predator at large uh i saw predator one i don't know probably like 15 years ago in college and was like yeah that's cool that's fine um but i haven't engaged very much with the franchise sure but learning about this movie i knew it came out i was like all right this is on my list of things to see and then us doing this episode now gave me kind of the like kick in the bum i needed to actually watch it not the bum i i do wish that i could have seen this movie in theaters um as much as i like enjoyed watching it at home

i wish i could have seen this movie on a gigantic screen same and i've seen it twice now once in english and once in comanche and then i also re-watch Predator yesterday just to see if it would like inform anything I had to say about Prey, which I don't know, maybe it'll come up. But yeah, I would say of the Predator movies I've seen, Prey is my favorite installment in the franchise. I also really enjoyed this movie. Mr. Predator, hot, but also everyone in the cast, hot. Could you unpack Mr. Predator hot? As someone who famously had a thing for the fish from Shape of Water. But I feel like that movie was actively encouraging you to want to have sex with the fish.

And it just worked on me faster than maybe the movie intended i mean have you seen predator's body in this movie i mean sometimes yeah he's he is often invisible but you know he's he's got abs he's got nice shoulders i forget you do love shoulders is it the shoulders thing look i don't know if I have specifically a shoulders thing. Point is, I am attracted to the predator from Prey. I think that's really brave of you to say out loud. Thank you so much. But that is neither here nor there.

I'm not going to focus on that in this episode. There's a lot of more important things to talk about. Yes. So with that, I say we get into it starting with the recap, actually starting with let's take a quick break. Oh, and then we'll come back and recap. So we will be right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

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And we're back with Caitlin's famous recap. Okay, the movie opens. We are in the Great Northern Plains. It is the year 1719. We meet Naru, played by amber midsunder she's a young woman from the comanche nation we see naru gathering food with her dog sorry big sorry fan oh sorry the dog good yeah then we see her doing target practice with a throwing axe she spots a deer which gets spooked by a loud sound something flying overhead maybe an alien spaceship we don't know but a chase ensues and naru chases and hunts the deer but it gets away yes then she sees something in the sky and it's maybe an alien spaceship?

Dun dun. I also love every time that you're in like predator vision. It's so, it just, it made me giggle. It made me giggle every time he went heat vision mode. You're like, oh yeah, the future. Because this movie does such a good job of entrenching you in 1719 that anytime you see heat vision you're like hold on uh so then naru speaks to her brother tabe played by dakota beavers

she tells him that she saw uh what she's calling the thunderbird in the sky they talk about hunting she says she's ready for her trial and he like, you want to hunt something that's hunting you? And we're like, that's the theme of the movie. And then Naru and her mom, played by Michelle Thrush, have a conversation. Her mom asks, you're good at so many things. Why do you want to hunt? And Naru says, because you all think that I can't. Which is the most coming of age thing of all.

I really liked Michelle Thrush's performance. This is also where you find out that her father has passed, Naru's father. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We then cut to this thunderbird flying through the sky again. Then we see something that you recognize as the predator alien if you've seen a predator movie. It's invisible, but you can see its outline.

You can hear its click, click, click noise that it makes with its mouth. The clicks are canon. I'm taking it. Yes, yes. People love a good old-fashioned predator click. I was loving it. It's good.

It's good. Meanwhile, a lion has taken out one of the men from the village, Puhi. So Tabe and some other men start tracking the lion to rescue Puhi. Naru follows the men, but they don't take her seriously. They make a sexist remark toward her. Then Naru is the one to find Puhi alive, but he's badly injured. And she suspects that something else, something bigger, must have scared off the lion. And that's why Puhi is still alive. Right. So Naru tends to his

wounds and gives him a medicinal plant that cools his body temperature to slow down his blood flow so that he doesn't lose too much blood right then naru and the others carry puhi back to their village while tabe stays behind to hunt the lion on the way back naru sees large footprints a skinned snake kind of some freaky stuff the snake scene was cool oh man the yeah the snake effects that was one of the scenes where i'm like why why can't I see this in IMAX? This is so cool. Right? Yeah.

So she sees all this stuff. So she and this man, Paka, turn back to warn Tabe and try to help him kill the lion. But the plan doesn't totally work. Tabe has to save Naru and paka from the lion and he returns having vanquished the lion and tabe is made war chief but naru is like well there's something still out there and if i have to i will go out and hunt it by myself and tabe's like well you tried and you failed and you can't do this and you're like okay this is some real protagonist shit going on yeah so naru more determined than ever sets off to find whatever

this huge animal is this predator with i hear kind of incredible shoulders that's just what my friend said though great shoulders nice abs just kind of a good body overall fish also had abs if you recall i do so many they just kept going he had like 40 abs he had a lot of abs yeah confusing for me okay anyway so we see naru tracking the predator she perfects her throwing axe, adds a rope to it so that she can easily retract it and catch it. Meanwhile, we see the predator alien hunting and killing a wolf. It rips the wolf's like spine and head off. So we're like, oh my gosh, this predator, he means business.

And he has this, yeah terminator like vision like predator vision that is heat sensing so he can see like warm bodies wherever he looks naru comes across a field of slaughtered and skinned bison but wait a minute this wasn't the predator even though predator loves to skin things because she finds a, what I think is a cigar. So we understand that humans did this colonizers did this. So she continues hunting. She gets stuck in like a marsh and has to use her ax on like on a rope to

pull herself out again. Just like an unbelievable sequence the tension in that scene yeah i'm trying to i mean anytime someone falls into a large marsh it's just it's going to be thrilling yeah it's good then she encounters a grizzly bear which is about to kill her but then the bear is distracted by the predator and she watches Mr. Predator fight and brutally kill the bear. She manages to escape,

then bumps into the young men from the tribe who are out looking for her. A character named Wasape is kind of leading the group. He forcibly and violently tries to bring her back home, but she fights back and tries to warn them about the huge monster, but they don't believe her or take her seriously until the predator shows up and starts killing the men kind of one by one using it's like laser pointer and advanced alien weaponry which i love i i the

advanced alien weaponry still feels like oh this was like this is technology from the this is what the future was supposed to look like in the 80s like i just love that element to it is so oh it's fun because going back and watching the advanced alien weaponry from the first predator movie in the 80s is very funny too is it yeah that's the best the heat sensing vision anytime you like see the 80s version of the heat sensing technology yeah you're like yep this is from the 80s that's wait johnny when did you first see a predator movie oh i was young oh yeah this is gonna date me but i believe i was eight years old so that would have been in 88 nice yeah and i mean my family loved movies, and I was basically born a horror fan. So, you know, it wasn't unusual for, you know, people to let me watch horror films,

because I remember watching Twilight Zone, Alfred Hitchcock. Do you guys remember the TV series The Hitcher? No. No. What's that? That was like on USA and Tales from the Dark Side. I know that one. My mom has pictures of me like peeking out from behind the couch and my hands are over my eyes. But that's how I used to watch shows and I was super tiny.

That's so sweet. So like I grew up on horror. So, you know, I had an early introduction to to Predator. Cool. And it kind of stayed with me because, you know, the movies aren't that great. Like, you know, story wise, there are a lot of action. There are a lot of fun. But in terms of like a cinematic masterpiece, you know, it's a little debatable. Sure. But you you root for the movies because you love predator you know you love this alien because let's be honest he's always getting his butt kicked

he's never come out the winner he may have gotten a couple kills in but i mean he's a formidable opponent for sure yeah for sure and he's always been taken out by human intelligence, which can we just can we just talk about how absurd that is? Like you're telling me this creature that has heat vision and these advanced weapons is getting beat by humans and not just beat by humans but literally he got hit with a log you know what i mean like oh you mean in the first movie but you still love him you know what i mean you still root for him you get excited when you see a predator movie and his hot bod yeah yeah fish face mr fish uh that contextualizes it well i i feel like the way you're describing your feelings about predator and the predator franchise is how i feel about jigsaw and the saw franchise where you're like okay the first one is genuinely

really good the rest we don't really know but am I always rooting for Jigsaw? Yes, I am. I mean, it's the same thing with like, you know, with Freddy and Nightmare on Elm Street and Jason, you know, like you got these moments that are so good that draw you in. But then because you're so invested at that point, like, it doesn't matter if all the rest of them suck. You're still excited for them and you still love them. Absolutely. Oh was yeah I'm always curious with like franchises I feel like eight that has to that has to be such a sweet spot that's a lifelong uh pledge to the predator yeah and I mean I am just as bad with Michael Myers um I'm actually wearing a Michael Myers shirt now um that is one That is one fandom that I am

totally obsessed with. And my whole thing like over this entire pandemic has been just let me live to see the end of this trilogy. So that's how invested I am with my fandoms. And it's the same with Predator. Like I've seen all of movies um and i've seen them almost except for the first two all in theaters so numerous times i'm that nerd who's seen i hate to admit this lord of the rings probably about like 10 times in theaters i'm not that far behind you i saw return of the king six times in theaters. I'm not that far behind you. I saw Return of the King six times in theaters. Like, you know, this was back in the day when you could afford to go to a movie multiple times. But, you know, I remember just going to people and we're like, you're going to see it again.

And I was like, yes. I was like, you don't understand. You're like, don't judge me. Oh, that's the best. I work hard for my money. I will spin it how i want yeah yeah okay so back to back to the recap um okay so it's the scene where predator shows up and kills all the young men in this like group who is looking for naru naru narrowly escapes again but oh no her foot gets caught in a trap and the predator comes right up to her but then leaves and then just then some french fur trappers show up and abduct naru she wakes up. The French demand information from her about this monster. Turns

out they've also captured her brother Tabe. And the trappers tie them up in an open area and use them as bait for the predator. And Mr. Predator does show up. But rather than taking the bait, he kills all of the trappers and does not go after naru and tabe naru realizes the predator doesn't want bait and won't attack anything that it doesn't consider a threat so naru and tabe eventually escape tabe sets off to collect the frenchman's horses while naru goes after her dog sorry who is back at the french camp and she gets there she has to fight and kill a handful of french guys and then she helps out this man whose leg was cut off she gives him the medicine that lowers

your body temperature and he kind of in exchange shows her how to use a gun but oh no the predator comes to the camp but doesn't see the french guy because his his body temperature is too cold for the heat sensing vision which is something that naru pieces together she kind of figures out that if you take this medicinal plant it makes it so that the predator can't see you. Meanwhile, predator is about to kill the dog, but then Tabe shows up on horseback. Naru and Tabe launch an attack, but the predator kills Tabe and Naru runs away to safety. Every time a dog is introduced in an action movie, I'm just like, no, that dog is going to be in the trenches. But, you know.

The dog survives. I know. And that's what I call subversion. Volume 2022. So then Naru comes across another surviving French guy, the same one who had injured her brother. So she gives him a gun that oops, doesn't work. This is all part of her plan.

Basically she wants the predator to think of him as a threat because he has a weapon, but the gun doesn't work. And her plan succeeds because predator shows up and kills this French guy, giving her the opportunity to like have this final show down with predator she has taken the medicine that lowers your body temperature so predator can't see her they fight she chops off his arm she pulls him into the marsh that she fell into earlier and then using its own alien technology against it, she is finally able to kill the Predator.

And she returns to her village with the decapitated head of Mr. Predator. The glow-in-the-dark blood, like, oh, it's so cool. Yeah. She reunites with her mom, and Naru is made the new war chief of her tribe. So that is the story. Let's take another break and we will come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. hosts of Two Teas in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week we break down every episode and give you our opinions. We cover it all. OC, Jersey, Beverly Hills, New York City, Dubai. As we always say, you're only as good as last week's episode. Plus, we're talking to all your favorite Bravo Leberties and not just housewives. We're putting your favorite people

in the twat seat and getting the juicy stories everybody wants to know. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble. Okay, maybe a lot of trouble. It's not really trouble when it's truthful. Let's just say we can be a little twatty. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In a galaxy far, far away. No, babe, that's taken. We're in our own world, remember? Right. In our own world, we're two space cadets. And totally normal humans. Sure, totally normal humans.

Embark on a journey across the stars, discovering the wonders of the universe one episode at a time. We'll talk about life, love, laughter, and why you should never argue with your co-pilot. Especially when she's always right. Right, and if we hit turbulence, just blame it on Mercury retrograde. Or Emily's questionable space piloting skills. Hey, join us on In Our Own World for cosmic conversations, stellar laughs, and super corny dad jokes.

Listen to In Our Own World as a part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't worry, we promise to avoid any black holes. Most of the time. And we're back. Okay. Where shall we start? Johnny, is there anything in particular you would like to start the discussion with? Or we can jump in?

I mean, there's a lot we can talk about. There is a lot we can talk about there is a lot um now you know what i really want people to understand like is the context of the movie because i i don't know if you've seen it in comanche but there's such a huge difference in the way that the tone and even naru's motivation is portrayed um because one of the fears that I had with this movie from the very get-go was that people would kind of run with the original tagline of this being a Comanche woman who goes against gender norms and traditions to become a warrior. And in the English version, there are moments that kind of that kind of hint at that

motivation um you know when Naru's talking with her mom and her mom asked why do you want to hunt and she says because you all think I can't it seems like she's rebelling and that you know she's she's doing it to be rebellious and to prove that she can and that the tribe is kind of holding her back but if you watch it in Comanche it's a very different context that it falls and the the context comes back to it being about Naru like she's not doing it in spite of the tribe you know she's doing it to prove it to herself that she can do it so it's not you know, everybody else doubting her or anybody else's, you know, ideas being pushed onto her. You know, it's about her proving to herself that she can. And I thought that was one of the most beautiful things about this movie being released

in Comanche and English is because there's such a huge difference. If you listen, if you watch the movie in Comanche, you're going to get more context, more humor, and things are just better conveyed, I guess, as far as like the messaging of the movie. And when you get into the English, it almost seems like, which is kind of neat for me, because it almost seems like the English is the afterthought. Like, a lot of the humor, the nuance, you know, like, they didn't really, it doesn't come through in the English version, in the English version. You really got to watch it in Comanche to get the full effect of the movie, and just how beautiful it is. Even the conversations that, you know, Nari has with

her mother and her brother, it's better understood. And even just the title of the film itself is better understood in Comanche than it is in English. Prey in Comanche, you know, if you're watching it, it's Katamiya is the trial that she's looking to undergo and that's actually what the movie the title of the movie translates to of in comanche so it it kind of explains why it's not a predator movie like it's not predator nine you know right so so i thought it was a genius use of the language and shows how meaningful and intentful they were in the usage of the Comanche language. So if you're watching it in Comanche, like you get a totally different experience. And so I want people to really kind of understand, like, this isn't a girl power movie.

It is, but it's not like she was doing it in spite of the men in her tribe, like she was trying to prove or rebel or anything, or they were trying to keep her from it. That know, with the way that her interaction with the other warriors, which for a lot of us was kind of problematic, because they would not have been able to treat her that way back then. And they wouldn't, I don't think they really would have thought to treat her that way as well. Just because, you know, pre colonization, you know, our relationships with, you know, like being women and, you know, men-colonization, you know, our relationships with, you know, like being women and, you know, men, our relationships were very different. It was all about a balance of power. It wasn't about men holding power over women or women holding power over men. There was a balance. And so, you know, that really kind of didn't come through. And it was kind of, it was a little problematic, but, you know, like my thinking is nothing's perfect. So, you know, it's still a major step up in terms of representation.

But there are still these little nuances where if, you know, like if you're not Native, you're going to get something different out of it. And I think that can kind of be problematic just because some, so many times, you know, even now with like the fan backlash from this movie, you know, the, what I like to call the faux boys, because they're not really fans. They're just like agents of chaos who come in and just try to trash things and create drama. That's how they have joy in their life, which is interesting. So sad. right drama that's how they have joy in their life which is um interesting so sad yeah yes that is the word that is the word sad pathetic embarrassing yeah but you know like it kind of plays into that because i don't know how many comments i've seen after this were like oh native men were brutal to

women and you know they were raping and blah blah blah, blah, blah. And they project all of this, you know, violence onto native communities that wasn't there just because of the stereotypes that we've typically seen in movies. So, you know, when I see things like that, like I always worry about like what the takeaway is going to be. Like, are people going to be like, see, that's how they really treated their native women. And, you know, and it's like's like no it's a little more complicated than that you know right yeah so i i saw in both the english and comanche and just kind of yeah what plays out in in both versions to i think a lesser extent in comanche but you still have those scenes where the men aren't taking her seriously they They're being violent toward her. They're enforcing what feels like kind of like white Christian sexism on to her. And I'm like, that doesn't that didn't totally track.

And I was glad that you mentioned that in your piece as well, Johnny, because I was like, I don't know. I was like, this doesn't seem to square very well. And it seems to be kind of like a current film trope that has made its way into this story where it doesn't make sense for the period and the culture that this story takes place in. Because it just feels like kind of this loose, like you said in your piece, like a girl power narrative that is taking place in a vacuum sort of.

Yeah. And because I mean, you know, I see this so often when we have discussions of like, you know, especially like with women's issues and women's rights, a lot of like white patriarchal values and feminist ideas get kind of projected onto indigenous communities,

which, you know, for me, it's annoying because it kind of whitewashes and erases the inherent strength and power of indigenous women that we've always had. You know, pre-colonization, we weren't oppressed in our communities. You know, we were, you know, Native women have always kind of been the backbones of our societies and respected and treated well. You know, we held power, but it wasn't like we held power over. Right. You know, it was just like an equal distribution

of power. Like our thoughts, our work, our labor, everything had value and was respected. So, you know, I always worry about when it's projected onto us because it really, it almost is kind of like a way to deflect from the trauma of colonization, like to kind of be like, oh, well, you know, like, look what they were doing. You know, they were, they were pushing people into this. But it's not the same context. And, you know, I don't if you're not native, like you're not familiar with native history or cultures or communities, you don't really understand like that, the nuances that exist. Right. And so when I I mean, that was my main worry with this movie was just how like how these like patriarchal values were being kind of projected. And, you know, and I kind of understand it to an extent too, because, you know, this is a

movie for a mass market and, you know, it has to, you know, viewers have to watch it and understand what's going on. And while I wish it wasn't like they, I wish they would have tweaked it a little bit in different ways, I think it still did a really good job of showing, you know, the overall theme. Yeah. Right. Just the fact that the like the men warriors that she was going out with, like the hunting parties and everything that, you know, her brother would not have allowed them to treat her that way or to talk to her that way. And they would not have treated her that way, especially once her brother became, you know, like their like their war chief. Yeah. You know, that would have happened. And the part where, you know, they really kind of just beat the crap out of her. If if it was from a different tone, it would have made sense if they weren't doing it to be sexist, if they weren't, you know, telling her like, oh, you should be back in the village cooking, you know, like it kind of would have made sense because Nate, you know, I grew up kind of like, I have brothers and sisters, um, and we used to fight and, you know, like where I'm talking punching, somebody is bleeding and, you know, so it would have made sense if they were

treating her as an equal, like a sister and they were kind of like wrestling around and you know fighting it would have made sense yeah you know but the fact that there was this very misogynistic tone to it didn't make sense like if they were if she was fighting them to prove that she could right like hang with the boys it would have been different because that's something that totally happens like you you fight with your brothers to show you're just as strong or just as good as they are you know right right like but that misogynistic tone just was like there were a few lines that felt very like cwe in just like the oversimplification of the massage like i, just sort of echoing what you're saying. But then in the relationship with Naru and Tabe, there were moments where it felt like that, like it became, it worked for me a lot

better when he was doubting her because she was his younger sibling versus like, you are a woman and I don't respect you. Yeah. And it wasn't just that they were doubting her ability to, because if you watch it in Comanche, like I said, you get more nuance and you kind of understand that they're not worried about whether or not she can do it. They're worried about whether or not she's doing it for the right reasons and whether or not she understands what it is she's doing and what it means and because like for her you know it is kind of like a rebellion she's

stubborn she's headstrong and she you know like she she knows she wants to do this and you know there's even a part where her mom tells her that, you know, you want to take Katamiya and you think that it's only about the hunt and the kill. But the whole point of it is survival. Like it's not about just going out and hunting. It's about knowing how to survive. And, you know, when you're talking about survival, that's not just knowing when to fight, but also when to retreat. Because that was, you know, when they had this conversation, it was after they went hunting for the mountain lion.

And, you know, like, she almost died. And even her brother, you know, when he's trying to give Cher credit, he's like, you know, like, we did it. And then, of course, Naru is kind of being a brat. And, you know, because, like, I I think in a sense she thinks her brother took her victory from her right or her opportunity right so and you know and then he's like you know what fine we didn't do this I did this and you know just kind of like trying to kind of taking it back from her like this entitlement I guess you know like you know I was trying to share this

with you but if you're going to be that way, no. Right. Like if you're going to leverage it to put yourself in danger again. Yeah. And then of course, you know, what did she do? She took off and she put herself in danger. But, you know, I thought it was a good way to kind of show that nuance, you know, that they were genuinely just more worried that she was rushing into something that she didn't understand. Yeah. And, you know, and when you're coming, doing coming of age ceremonies or when you're going into ceremony in our communities, you know, knowing what you're getting into and the responsibilities that come with it are very important. And it's something that's very stressed, you know, like they don't want you

just to jump into it just because you think it's cool or, you know, to be trendy or to be different or whatever. They really want you to understand, you know, what the meaning of the ceremony is, and you go into it with the right kind of mind, your heart's right. So I really thought that was kind of like a really smart way to kind of show that you know that they wanted her to understand what it is she was undertaking and the responsibilities that come with that the conversations with like Tayabi and you know Naru were so beautiful to me because that was the perfect sibling like conversations you know the brother trying to impart wisdom and she's over there pretending to snore and you know I, there was just so many things that were beautiful about that.

But I really loved that they were kind of showing that care. And I wish they would have kind of carried that over to where the rest of the hunting party or the rest of the people in the village, you know, kind of had that same mindset too, instead of adding that misogynistic kind of viewpoint in there, you know, where it was like, oh, you, you know, why are you here? You know, it's, we're not going to be out here long. We don't need a cook, you know? We need a, yeah, that one, I was just like, okay, rolling my eyes a little bit at that. I think those scenes could have also worked if the narrative had been kind of adjusted so that because what's happening is that she is like, because she's such a good tracker, she's noticing all these kind of peculiar things, right? something else out here it seems like you know a monster from like our folklore and of course if someone tells you that it's going to be difficult to believe especially like they know these lands very well they know the wildlife so if it had just been them sort of being like well like it doesn't

sound like you're talking about something that's real so it like we're having trouble believing you and of and of course they would have trouble because this thing that she's encountering is like not of this world like not something they're familiar with so even if something like that had been more leaned into if it's like well yeah we're not taking you seriously because you're describing something that like doesn't exist or that like we're not aware of yeah or even if they had been joking about it like even if the tone like the delivery of the lines was less violent less angry right um i think it would have played out like oh they're just joking with her and you know kind of hazing a little bit, like brothers and sisters do. Um, yeah, I would have made a little more sense to me, but like that, that violent undertone with everything and how they interacted

with her, you know, just didn't really sit well with me. Um, and I, but I understand, you know, they had to do that more for like the mass market for other people to, to understand like what, what this is and to kind of have that conflict, like beyond her just fighting a predator. So like, I kind of understand it, but at the same time, like I don't like it, but it's still,

it does feel like kind of insidious and bizarre that like to make a movie mass marketable, you have to layer on white Christian misogynist oppression onto a story. You're like, why? Because it does like feel like the story has, if you take away, like you're saying, Johnny, like the tone of a lot of those interactions and just like some of the like kind of overwritten lines that are lobbed at Nauru. Like everything you need is there to understand why things are playing out the way they are.

In addition to like something that I like that isn't said constantly, but I felt like you could feel was like this family has already endured a loss. So of course they're going to be worried about a very headstrong family member because they've already lost somebody. Like, that is a very universal dynamic. I don't understand why this stuff had to be added. And there was a really beautiful scene, too. When Naru first started just heading out of the village, they kind of did the overhead shot where she's walking out of the village but all everybody else is walking in yeah and it was a very beautiful shot because for me you know indigenous communities

have always been communal a communal you know you everything is for the betterment of the community you don't have people just going off on their own and doing their own thing because they have a responsibility to the community. So it was a beautiful way and it could be taken two ways, right? Because you could see it as her going against the norms, right? You know, she's going off on her own. She's daring to be different kind of thing. Like you can get that out of that shot. But one of the things that I got out of it was you kind of see where her family's worry was valid because, you know, she's, she is being headstrong. She is being stubborn and she's going out on her own, unprotected, without any backup, without letting anybody know. And, you know, while she does have her own valid reasons for doing so, it kind of validates that concern that her brother and her mother had,

you know, that she doesn't understand what it is she's undertaking. And she really doesn't, you know, like when she's out there, you know, she starts to understand like, oh, this is bigger than I thought it was. Like, this is different. This is more dangerous. And realizing like, I'm not equipped to deal with this. Like, I wasn't prepared for this. And you could kind of see that. And you kind of see that development too. Like, thank goodness she's observant because that could have ended so badly if she wasn't. But the fact that she was able to watch and to really learn and, you know, just kind of helped her survive this entire ordeal with the predator. But it could have ended so different because she went out just like, you know, there's something out there, but I don't know what it is. And I'm just going to go out there with my dog.

Right. You know, and not let anybody know because it's not like she had a cell phone to call for help, you know. Right. anybody know because it's not like she had a cell phone to call for help you know right so it was really interesting for me to see how they showed that and just how different like your perspective is going to be depending on your own personal viewpoints or perspectives and experiences when you're watching this movie like you're going to read into it some something different like there's several different ways that everything can be taken, which I think is one of the most genius things about the film, is because if you're watching

it from a Native perspective, it's going to be very, your experience is very different than a non-Native who's watching the same scene. Like it's, you're going to get two different things out of it. So I thought, you know, that was a really beautiful thing. But also, again, it could be a little problematic, but I'm going with the positive here. Well, I mean, especially like Native audiences seem to generally agree that this movie is a pretty big step forward as far as Native representation goes in media, especially considering how how low the bar is yeah yes i mean most american media has portrayed indigenous people very unfavorably like a lot of racist stereotypes being leaned into native characters being played by white actors stories being told from the point of view of

white characters where the native characters are on the sideline or just being used as set dressing. I mean, the list goes on. Right. Or only validated as characters once they ally with the white characters. And yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's one of the things that I was kind of worried about, like from the very get go. And I was so glad to be proven wrong in a lot of regards um but I'm also one of those people you know I practice what I like to call critical nerd theory um and it's being able to watch and consume our media and being able to be critical about like the problems

within that media yeah while also like acknowledging like you can still love this you know like it doesn't mean that you have to throw it all away because it's not perfect. That's pretty much the thesis of our podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Like this was such a milestone for the Comanche Nation in terms of the way that their tribe has been portrayed in movies.

This is one of the only movies that has really portrayed Comanche people well. And I was laughing because, you know, again, I'm a horror nerd. And I was thinking back to, I was trying to think, like, is there another movie where Comanche people have been mentioned or portrayed? And yes, there is. And it's a movie that I loved growing up. And I recently found it on YouTube. And it did not age well.

Oh, no. What movie? It is so bad. It's called The Cellar. Oh, I read about this movie. I have not seen it before. Yeah. It's an old movie.

I believe it was like, I think it came out around the same time as the first Predator, actually. It may have been a couple years later. But it's around that same time as the first predator, actually. It may have been a couple years later, but it's around that same time. And, you know, it's about a family that moves into this, you know, the dad lost his job and, you know, he's got to take this oil rig job and they move out into the middle of nowhere. And there's a monster in the area that has been kind of kept dormant. You know, the, what, there's a native man and he's, he's been kind of tasked with making sure that this creature stays dormant. And, you know, he's got spears and grounds to keep it underground. And of course, you know, the, the white guy and his kid see one of the spears and the kid's like dad can i have

it and he's like yeah sure go ahead take it the kid takes it and all hell is unleashed but the the monster you know in this movie was the comanche and some of the other tribes in the area were you know trying to figure out how to get rid of the white men. And so they created this monster called, um, Cogwai, I think it was, um, I might be butchering the pronunciation, but you know, it's Cogwai and it was a mix of all these different animals like lions and alligators and stuff like that. And it was supposed to kill the white man. And, you know, and one of the guys was like, well, you know, if it, if it was, uh, supposed to protect the natives, you know, and one of the guys was like, well, you know, if it if it was supposed to protect the natives, you know, why are you guys keeping it locked up? And the guy's like, well, it started killing Indians, too.

So it's so bad that I had not heard of that movie before I read about it. Referenced as, yeah, a movie that did not age very well yeah like I watched it on YouTube and I was just like how is this one of my favorite movies because I used to watch it every time it came on and I would just be so excited to watch it so you know that's the only other horror movie that has made really made mention of Comanche people and it was just terrible so for them to have prey you know that's a huge step up but also just the way that this movie is something that is not only kind of showing the Comanche culture in a lot of different ways but also helping with language preservation you know this is something that young people who are looking to learn their language

can see this movie and be like more inspired to learn their language, to see it used in a more modern context rather than it being something that's just always put in the past. Yeah, for sure. I wanted to, yeah, go into that a little bit or just more into the production history of this movie.

I feel like we've talked about it a little bit, but I just want to jump in. So I believe this is the first movie to be completely dubbed in Comanche by all of the actors are doing their own dubs. I really enjoyed like reading about I mean mean amber midthunder has given some really fabulous email or interviews emails jamie interviews she's been sending emails she's on fire uh but uh really amazing um insights into how the movie was produced and like even just reading about her axe training and all the practical stuff she did because she they put her in the fucking trenches. But reading about, yeah, how Amber Midthunder and other actors in the movie were, you know, either knew some or had to be taught how to do their own dubs, I thought was like so incredible. Oh, so get this.

So Dan Trachtenberg had originally pitched the movie to only be in Comanche. Yes. Right. And so when they were holding auditions for the roles, like they would come in and they were doing their lines in English. But then they literally handed them the script right then and there in Comanche with no direction on how to say the words or anything because they wanted to see how well they would be able just to read it and make you know like how well they'd be able to work it out and because that would kind of give them an idea of how quickly they would be able to learn the Comanche language or their proficiency. And so I was kind of shocked

because I was like, oh my gosh, I would have just died right then and there. Right. You know, like you're like, they give, they give you the script in English and you do your lines and you're like, I killed it. Then they're like, wait, wait a second. And then there you go. And yeah. And, and it's in a language that you've never seen before or never heard spoken. I would have died. Like I would have been like, what? I was like, auditions are stressful enough as it is. Like, oh, my God.

And then to have to do it in a foreign language, you know, like without any direction or anything. So I thought that was really unique. Yeah. And a testament to the talent of this cast. Yeah, to the cast, because they all had to learn Comanche. And, you know, the Comanche language department, the Comanche Nation language department

did such a phenomenal job in teaching them because, you know, there's been other Native productions and they're really good. Dark Winds, you know, there's been other Native productions and they're really good. Dark Winds, for example, you know, like the story is good, the acting is good, but when it comes to incorporating the language, you know, there were a lot of Navajo people who were kind of criticizing how the language was used, like it was, things weren't being said right or, you know, from the right perspective, I guess, because in a lot of our native languages, there's differences in the way that you say things for men and for women. So, you know, like there's there's variations on words that only a man, you know, that's what the way he would say it. And then there's, you know, the way a woman would say it, you know. So there's like a gender difference in our language. And so, you know,

that also comes into play when you hear our languages being spoken, because sometimes you're cracking up dances with wolves. They use some Lakota words, but the way that they use them was from a woman's perspective, the way a woman would say those words. So there were a lot of people, you know, that still make fun of that, you know, like, oh, you know, he's talking like a woman, you know. So, you know, like there's, it's really hard to get native languages correct because oftentimes, you know, it's not natives from those tribes speaking those languages so they really don't know any different so for the Comanche Nation language department to be as involved as they were and for the time that they took you know to really make sure that the actors were learning

the language learning the pronunciation really just kind of showed the care that was going into this production. But also, you know, Amber Mithender has talked about it, too, that she was really worried about taking on this movie because she was scared of how Indian country would respond to it. Like she wanted to do it right. She wanted to do it justice. And, you know, she had she worried, you know, she was like, when I first got this, and I found out is a predator movie. She's like, I cried, you know, not she's like, and not tears of happy, but like, just kind of represent their community well, because there's just so few examples in media of positive representations of those people, of those communities. So it's just, again, speaks to a need for more stories to exist um but yeah so i imagine part of it was like this this pressure to represent her community well i mean i can't imagine um i wanted to share

a couple of quotes from amber midthunder i um i'd seen her in in stuff before um but this was i think the first like big leading role i'd seen her in um except before but this was I think the first like big leading role I'd seen her in except I did watch Roswell New Mexico I really liked that show wow anyways so she has she's from an acting family and so I read a few things about just sort of how she has you know borne witness kind of her whole life to how Indigenous people are represented in movies and in TV and how those talks, what those talks were like in her family.

So I just wanted to share some quotes from her. Here's one. Quote, when you're represented by something you can't relate to or feel represents you poorly, that does affect you. My dad is an actor, but even still, we would have a lot of

conversations about how that was really not the way to do it, or, haha, this is what they gave us to wear. Growing up, my parents handled it like an inside joke rather than being constantly hurt or offended by stuff. But getting older and looking at it, I can see the importance of representing things accurately and respectfully on film, especially because to someone who doesn't grow up in an indigenous community or really close to one, it's maybe the only source of information, unquote. Another major behind-the-scenes player I wanted to make sure we shouted out and spoke about a little bit was... Was it Jane?

Yes. Jane Myers is a producer on this film. She is a Comanche woman uh and she it sounds like i mean i found like a bunch of different examples of things she'd done different representations of just like for example horses or the original draft of the movie there was like no horses involved and jane myers was like there has to be horse like that just basics to her culture that you know this movie uh it should be said is written and directed by white guys still yes and so while i think it's really really critical that there is a comanche producer on the movie it's like i mean what would they have done without her It's so messed up a lot more things. We'd be having a very different conversation.

Yeah. And joking quite a bit more about this movie. Yes, yes, yes. So yeah, it was written by, it was directed by Dan Trachtenberg,

who's best known for 10 Cloverfield lane, I believe, which I did love that movie. It is fun. And written by Patrick, uh, a son, I son, not really. Which I did love that movie. It is fun. And written by Patrick Aisson, not really sure how to pronounce his last name. But these are two white men. And while I think it's largely agreed

that the movie is well researched and they listened to producer Jane Myers and did as much research as possible. Worked with their cast to worked with the Comanche Nation. But still two white guys. Still two white guys. And I think the conversation we had earlier about this kind of insertion of gender roles and sexism

that is not authentic to indigenous communities would probably have not been in the movie had it been written and directed by indigenous filmmakers so and we've talked about this on the podcast quite a bit before about how it feels like we are in this phase of Hollywood right now where it seems like Hollywood is finally listening to and doing something about the strong demand for stories that aren't just about cishet white men. But those are the only people that they are still allowing to make movies. Obviously, I'm exaggerating. Creators of many different backgrounds are being given more opportunities

than before. But just like the very gatekeeper-y nature of Hollywood. Yeah. And it's, and it's also like thinking about the quality of the opportunities that they are being given. Because I feel like, you know, they'd like to jump on the bandwagon. Yes. Native representation, it's a hot topic right now. And we've seen the success of Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs and, you know, Dark Winds came out and, of course, Prey. And, you know, like these are critically acclaimed series and movies now. And I feel like, you know, Hollywood is always like trying to jump

on that next best thing. So now they're like, OK, you know what, there is a market for this. So let's go with it. And they're given natives opportunities, but they're like, okay, you know what, there is a market for this. So let's go with it. And they're given natives opportunities, but they're also not, while the opportunity is there, they're not necessarily getting the support they need for those productions to be as successful as they could be. You know, we recently saw the cancellation of Rutherford Falls. And I feel like that is a perfect example of that because like there wasn't a lot of advertisement no um there wasn't a lot of marketing anywhere for Rutherford Falls like for a while like with season two um I saw maybe a couple of posters on a couple of bus stops and I

think they had a bus set at one point but that's the only promotion that I saw outside of Indian country, outside of Native people really pushing the show. And it almost felt like the responsibility was put on, you know, the showrunners and the writers and the actors to really try and make the show as successful as they could do. Right. But they didn't have studio support, like they didn't have the money behind them to really make that show successful as it could have been. And then, of course, you know, they kind of get punished for the impact, which is, you know, not having the viewership. But I think if more people had been able to see some kind of marketing or some kind of push for it, you know, it could be just as

successful as Reservation Dogs and as Prey because Rutherford Falls was so beautiful. The second season was amazing to me. There's a dirty dancing homage to it that just freaking killed it. There's also a party scene where they have like what I call a condiment throwdown where you have some Native women that are all dressed as condiments because the hot guy's in a hot dog suit. And then they're all fighting over this guy and he doesn't even know they're fighting over him, which I find hilarious. That episode was special to me. It is. It is such a special show, and I wish they would have had the support, and I feel like that's kind of the worry now, is that so many studios are going to be giving natives the opportunity to do these shows,

and taking that chance, but then the responsibility of the success of those shows is also going to be put on the show writers. Right. And then, of course, you those shows is also going to be put on the showrunners. Right. And then, of course, you know, when it comes to marginalized people, you know, we don't oftentimes get a second chance. Yeah. You know, we only have that one chance. And if you're not successful, you're not getting another chance. Meanwhile, you know, if it was a white showrunner, you know, they can make a bad show

after bad show after bad show and keep getting opportunity after opportunity and not only opportunity, but the marketing to try and make those things successful. For sure. Right. For inferior shows. Yeah, exactly. Because I guarantee you, if Prey did not have dan trachtenberg attached to it we wouldn't be having this conversation it wouldn't be the production that it is um like the studio wouldn't have invested the money that they did for the marketing because i mean it was incredible here in la yeah because just driving to the supermarket you pass reservation boards billboards and then you print you're passing prey billboards yeah and like there's still prey billboards up now right and it's such an incredible thing to to be native in LA and to be just driving around and you're seeing like

native film native show you know and to see them getting that marketing because, you know, those billboards are not cheap and they're not the tiny little billboards. Like these are massive billboards. And one of the prey billboards that I saw actually had like where the red lights were, were actually lit up or like had some kind of reflective. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, wow, like they went out. And of course, you know, they were really mindful to try and include Native journalists in the marketing and the press. You know, and I think that was so phenomenal because that doesn't happen with a lot of other shows, even if Natives are included, like we're not included. So this entire production was the opportunity, but making sure that, you know, we're supported behind the scenes. And also, you know, given the opportunity to kind of learn. Right. Because I feel so many of the time, they're giving people like the opportunity,

but they expect you to go in and just know what you're doing. Right. But you know, not a lot of people have, you know, familiarity with how marketing works or with, you know know what you're doing. But, you know, not a lot of people have, you know, familiarity with how marketing works or with, you know, how you're going to push the film. Right. And it's just, I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of support, like the opportunities there now, but now we don't have the support. And the support is kind of like a major component to success of these films. For sure, right. So it's kind of a catch-22 because I don't want to see a lot of really amazing Native talent being given this opportunity, but then being just spit out, you know,

if they don't have the support they need and it's not as successful right off the back as like Reservation Dogs. Right. And I think that's like such, we've, we've tried to touch on this in the show before, but the, like the idea that there's not that institutional support for native

filmmakers that there is for Dan Trachtenberg. Like we need to get to a place where you don't need the endorsement of a Dan Trachtenberg in order to get the institutional support that Prey did. Like, it's just, and it feels like we're still very, very much stuck in that gatekeeping aspect. Like, that has not been overcome. Yeah. And it's very different for us, too, because, you know, I recently did an interview with

Monique Jones, and, you know, she asked me, like, well, do you think there's going to be more Native content now? And I'm like, there is an incredible amount of Native content now. And there always has been because we have two Hollywood industry, but we also have our own native film industry because we've been kept out of Hollywood for so long that in order for our creators to have that opportunity, we had to create it ourselves. So there is a thriving native film community and industry. Like we have so many different film festivals, you like sterling harjo a lot of people are just

now hearing about him for reservation dogs but he has an incredible body of work behind him like award-winning movies and shows that he's worked on that he's written for and he's really well known a lot of the talent that you see in the show for for everybody else you know they're newcomers but for us like they're some of them are legendary you know and so like there's this two different industries and they operate very differently from each other yeah and you know like I think a lot of people who are you know who are very successful in our native film industry, they're a little more easily able to adapt to the Hollywood industry. But if you're a new upcoming talent

and you don't have experience, like this is your first opportunity, it's gonna be not only a culture shock, but just a huge risk to the entire rest of your career. Like that's a make it or break it thing because you're not getting a second opportunity within the industry. Once they think like, oh, well, we gave you your shot. You're not really worth developing. And, you know, like they just spit people out.

Right. And I think that's such a hard pill to swallow because we have so many talented natives out here who've been working in Hollywood for quite a few years, decades even. Right. And, you know, they're still not getting the opportunity to run their own shows, even though they've worked on, you know, white rent shows, white created shows. But they've never been given the opportunity to really push their own. And it's really kind of heartbreaking, too. You know, like, I don't know if you've ever seen the show Young and Hungry. Yes. Yeah. I love that show so much. And just like, I think it was last year, I learned that they had a Native writer and you see his name on every single episode. And I'm like, how did I miss that?

I would have loved that movie even or the show even more if I had realized put two to two. But, you know, like and you see that now that I know that I watch and I'm like, oh, that's a Native writer. Oh, that's a Native person. And I'm thinking, like, how is it that they've worked on all these incredible shows, yet they have not been given the opportunity to do their own? Right. Yeah. And it's just, it's kind of frustrating. But also, I realized, like, you know, I understand, like, colonization has done such a really good job at making Native people invisible on our own homelands. So it's a different type of struggle because

if you look at the Canadian film industry too, it's very different from our own. It's nothing for native people in Canada to be able to be cast on a show. And while they are native, it's not what revolved, like their character doesn't revolve around them being native. They just happen to be a doctor who happens to be Native. Like it's very normalized. Right, right. But here in the U.S., we're always othered, and we're always, you know, kind of portrayed very differently,

or they have to rely on these stereotypical tropes in order for them to have a Native character. Right, yeah. And so it's like our progress is very different, and we're finally starting to catch up a little, but we're still so far behind. And it's just, it's kind of like, how do we foster a better environment is that, like you mentioned, Hollywood is seeing indigenous stories as like, oh, they're so hot right now, you know, and if it's hot, it's going to be profitable. And Hollywood is also very averse to risk for profit reasons. And I feel like a lot of Hollywood executives still see, for example,

allowing an indigenous filmmaker to tell their own story as a risk. They view that as something that's risky because they don't think it would be relatable enough to a widespread audience and they want a widespread audience because that will make them more money. So yeah. And, and, and, you know, it's kind of hard to find a balance with that too, because it's like, come on right you guys like how many millions of dollars did you guys give to tom cruise for the mummy you know oh my gosh yeah come on right and even like the concept of risk averse as defined by a lot of executives is just like absolute horseshit because like how is it more averse of risk to have like a mediocre

like guy director like in a story that he like it's like not a good match in any way like it just it bothers me so much when it's like well this is less of a risk you're like this guy sucks like his track look at his imdb page. He's not good. Like, but he gets opportunity after opportunity after opportunity. And I'm just like, what the heck? But it's really, you know, it's, I mean, we've made progress and I feel like, you know, we kind of have to acknowledge that progress too, and kind of celebrate it. Because I think we also know that when you have a male dominated industry, it really runs on ego. So I feel like we kind of have to celebrate the wins because it's an ego thing for them. If they're like, oh, look, we got accolades for this.

You know, I did the bare minimum and they're giving me cookies. Then they're more likely to keep doing it. So, so I try and I try to be very careful about this too, because I used to go really hardcore with my criticism, not really thinking about the larger impact because I'm just like, well, you know, I, I'm not a industry, like I'm not like known in their industry or whatever, But I kind of got an eye opening experience back when when they were doing Pan. OK. And, you know, they cast Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily. And of course, there was that backlash.

And, you know, I had created the hashtag Not Your Tiger Lily to kind of discuss the whitewashing that happens in Hollywood, but also, you know, to kind of discuss the problematic nature of Tiger Lily and how, you know, she's this just a victim. And then, of course, you know, they constantly are doing this problematic character and they keep doing Peter Pan and it's a problematic story anyway but you know it has very racist origins towards indigenous people like even in the book and it hasn't gotten better in the depictions that we see on screen the only difference is now that they're casting native people as tiger lily as a kind of like an appeasement but they're not making the story or her character any better. Less racist yeah. Yeah so you know like I kind of wanted to bring attention to that and one of the things that I found so

hilarious about that was I realized that studios use our criticism as Native people as an excuse to not fund Native creative projects if they think that, oh, there's a potential for backlash here. And I got that eye-opening experience because I had noticed on my Twitter, like, you know, it was already like months after the casting had been announced. And actually, I think it was like right before the release of the movie. I noticed that there were all these reporters starting to follow me out of L.A. And I was living in Oklahoma at the time. So that was really weird to me.

And I was like, what the heck is going on? And finally, I got a message on my Twitter asking, you know, to call this reporter. She's like, I really like to talk to you. And I was like, okay. So like I called, cause I was like curious about why these reporters were following me all of a sudden. And the studio had, I don't know if it was a press release or in, in some interview that they had done or some conversation somewhere, they had mentioned a potential for that I was organizing a protest for the premiere. Oh. And so they were anticipating Natives to show up and protest at the premiere. And I'm like, what? I was like, I'm not even in L.A. Like, I'm in Oklahoma. Right. And they were

like, well, you know, we were told that you're organizing this protest and I was like no I was like why would I kind of bring more attention to a film I'm trying to not bring attention to or to avoid like right because you know Hollywood kind of operates on this any publicity is good publicity kind of thing right and it was really weird because she was just like well you know we heard this um and she's like you know so we really want to learn more about this protest and why you don't think this film. And I was just like, this is weird. And I was asking somebody else and they were like, well, yeah, she was like, this is kind of like how they generate buzz for their film. You know, if they can find any anything that could pique interest in the movie, like they're going to use it. And I was like, well, that's really weird. I said, because I'm

in Oklahoma, you'd think they would have done their homework first to make sure it was feasible. She's like, oh, she's like, no, she was just like, it's, it's just what they do. And, um, you know, like, and I started asking her, cause she's worked in Hollywood for quite a while. And I started asking her questions and, um, you know, she was like, well, you know, like, and I started asking her because she's worked in Hollywood for quite a while. And I started asking her questions. And, you know, she was like, well, you know, anytime that they see bad press coming out of Indian country, you know, they kind of use that as an excuse to pull funding or to not fund projects, to not give people the opportunity because they don't want that drama. She's like, they don't want to be affiliated with that bad press. And so it really made me think like, oh, I was like, because, you know, you want people to see your conversations.

You want people to talk about these issues, but you also don't want it to hurt the people who are working in that industry. And I realized like, oh, like we kind of have to tread a lot careful, a lot more carefully than other people when we criticize, like when we criticize Hollywood. And it's not fair. It's not right. But, you know, it's also good to be aware of that because, you know,

it's made me really think about the way that I criticize films or the way that I bring about issues or the way that I talk about them because I also don't want to vilify the Native people who aren't in those films and that's something that happens quite a bit and we saw that with Ridiculous 6 where where, you know, they did have Native actors who did walk off the set because of the racist stereotypes that Adam Sandler was using. And, you know, he had said like, oh, well, it's satire. But, you know, for Native people, like there's a difference between satire and racism. And it's a thin line, right? And it's not for Adam Sandler to decide what works

and what doesn't yeah what exactly so you know while there were a lot of natives who walked off the set there were a lot of natives who stayed and you know were in the film and there was a lot of vilification that happened like oh well they're sellouts they're this and it's like no they're native people trying to work in an industry that is very violent towards Indigenous people still. And they also have families to feed. It's a very hard balance to kind of walk because, you know, I think that you kind of do have to draw a line, but that line is going to be different for everybody else. You know, like Indian country is not a monolith. So, you know, while one native could be totally okay with how they were doing ridiculous six, you know, there were natives who weren't. And it didn't mean that either one was

wrong or invalid. It just means that they had very two different perspectives and also motivations, which for a lot of people, that motivation is to work and to be able to feed and take care of their families. And so you don't want to fault them for that, you know, especially like in our hard economic times, because when I was asked to do the press for, for pray, like to cover it, I was really worried about having that access because I didn't want to like I'm blunt I'm honest about what I think and I was like oh no I was like I don't want to to kind of like burn down this bridge of communication between me and the studio and being able to potentially cover other movies and other productions but I also want to be honest and

fair about what I think about this. And given that I was already hesitant about this movie anyway, like I was like trying to make sure like I was going to be able to be fair and to be still be honest. And thankfully, it kind of worked out. But, you know, like, I also know that I'm not the only Native with an opinion. And, you know, there's a kind of a balance. And I think we've all learned to kind of tread that balance to to kind of be fair, but tough in our assessment of this of these media productions, because we understand what's at stake. And we also, you know, kind of understand now that it has a larger impact outside of, you know, our own native publications that we realize like, oh, studios are watching what we're saying. They're watching, you know, how we respond to these productions. And that they're using that as a basis of how they decide who gets funded, who doesn't, who gets to be involved and who doesn't.

And, you know, it's trying to be mindful of that, too, because, I mean, when, I mean, I was just a native in Oklahoma. I live here in L.A. now, but at the time, you know, I didn't have a large following. I didn't have the platforms that I have now. And I thought it was really weird that they were using that as an excuse, you know, to say, oh, well, you know, this kind of proves that Native productions are risky, like we're going to face backlash for them. So to avoid it, we're just going to leave them out of it altogether, which is another reason that they largely cast a lot of non-natives in native roles because non-natives don't have the understanding to realize like that portrayal is wrong or that this is a this is a stereotypical trope and they have no

other knowledge outside of their relationship or experience with those mascots and stereotypes to know any different right so they will cast non-natives knowing that they're not going to have a problem or having to be held accountable about how those characters are being portrayed. Whereas if it was a native character, you know, it's a little bit different. You know, even Amber Midthunder has taught quite a bit about that, about how, you know, she's very fortunate to have kind of come into the industry when she did, when she has a little power to have some say over how the character is

portrayed and how, you know, they're telling these stories. Right. It sounds like her parents did not have that luxury when they were, weren't still are working in Hollywood. That is, I thank you for,

for sharing that experience. It, I just like, it's so frustrating. So frustrating. So indicative of like the very toxic nature of Hollywood to receive criticism and rather than like very valid criticism and rather than listen to it and like course correct. They're like, well, we're just going to use this as an excuse to not, you know, make Native projects or cast Native actors, you know. And on top of that, it's unfair to ask you to change how you do your job in order to appease. Like, it's just it's just bullshit top to bottom.

Yeah. And you could easily say like, well, I'm not going to because we have our own native film industry. But also, you know, like I don't want to, you know, like I don't think that any native person, you know, should be held to just being able to thrive in Indian country. Like we should be able to thrive anywhere. Absolutely. You know, in whatever industry it is we want to work in, whether it's in the film industry in Hollywood or it's in tech or whatever it is, you know, we should have the opportunity to to explore those possibilities for ourselves and, you know, and not be held back or have it be in spite of our nativeness. Because that's so much of our experience as indigenous people, too, is that like our success is seen as being in spite of us being native rather than you know it's just a native person being successful it always has to be in spite of us being native like because all of the issues that we face as indigenous people have become synonymous with our identities which which doesn't happen to anybody else, even though those

same issues affect everybody else as well. But just because of the stereotypes and how prevalent they are and how little interaction, you know, mainstream America has with indigenous communities. I mean, there are still people who think that we've been wiped out completely or who think we all still live in teepees, you know. So because of that lack of interaction, like they just honestly don't know any better. And that makes it really hard to try and navigate those spaces, too, because, you know, we also have to acknowledge that racism is institutionalized and normalized when it comes to Native people that oftentimes it's not recognized until it's called out. And then when it's called out, you know, people go on the defense because that's the way it's always been. And it's never been a problem before you know so you know it's such a hard balance to try and navigate you know what for for native people just existing in this country oh infuriating i i'm i mean i i'm

looking forward to native directors getting some blank fucking checks to make their own movies and because we've had conversations like this in the past on the show, where even when a marginalized filmmaker or writer is given an opportunity to make something, speaking to what you're just saying, Johnny, it's like, well, in order to make your project, you have to do it in a very particular way

or like exploit your own trauma or like we're only interested in work from you if it is about a very, very, very specific topic. When it's like that, again, it's just, you know, I think they really prepared her for that and also made her a little more audacious in the way that she was expect like in the expectations that she had for how she was going to interact with Hollywood. Because Amber is one of the few Native actresses that has been able to cross over into more mainstream Hollywood with like Roswell. I mean, she's had, she has so many credits to her name and it's kind of amazing to see because she's not necessarily native in those productions. You know, she does, it's, she's hasn't really been pigeonholed as just a native actress. And, you know, it is kind of like, it's kind of funny too, because I was just thinking about the name of your podcast, because in Indian country, and I know I'm good, probably going to butcher this name of this, but we have

the, it's either the AILA test or the AILA test. Okay. So we will talk about this when we, yeah. So it's been renamed to the AILA test and we will The Ali-Naughty Test. Yeah, so it's been renamed to the Ali-Naughty Test. And we will... Ali's been on the show many times. Friend of the cast. Yeah. Yeah, so since it's come up, the criteria to pass the Ali-Naughty Test

are that the character is an indigenous or aboriginal woman who is a main character, who does not fall in love with a white man and who does not end up raped or murdered at any point in the story obviously prey passes the test very handily so shout out to to ali nadi the ali nadi test and um yeah something that just like helps spark conversation about indigenous representation in media yeah Yeah, and it's incredible because, you know, and I bring that up because Amber Midthunder is one of the very few actresses that has pretty much been able to pass the Ali Nadi test in almost every production.

And I think that kind of goes to speak to, you know, how, you know, her family came from this industry. So they were able to prepare her and she was able to have make sure that her own voice was heard, that she wasn't just that she understood she had power in this industry. Yeah. And she used it. So, you know, it's really rare that we have Native actresses who have that opportunity. And it's incredible that, you know, Amber Midthunder has the career that she has. And, you know, especially in this role, you know, she was so worried about getting it right. Now, you know, Native girls have a badass Native warrior to look up to, you know, and that's incredible because, you know, again, you know, while there were like scenes of violence against her for misogynistic reasons you know it

she didn't end up murdered she didn't end up raped and that was an incredible feat for Hollywood so which shows how low the bar is oh my good grief yeah and it's it's really hard too um so I don't know if you guys have seen the recent episode of Reservation Dogs or if you're caught up on the series. I'm not caught up either. A lot of it is about like the show is kind of centered around, you know, how suicide affects Indian country. You know, like the first season revolves around four friends who are dealing with the suicide of one of their closest friends and this second season kind of explores the generational trauma that kind of goes into that as well and in this last episode we saw big who is the cop who has a lot of guilt because he thinks that he killed one

of his friends that he wasn't able to save her and he carries a lot of guilt about that and it kind of carries over how you know for this generation like for these kids you know the trauma that they're dealing with is the suicide of you know their their best friend their cousin their brother but you know the adults in their, their parents, and the people in the community, you know, that trauma came from the death of this character, Cookie, who is, who plays Devery's monk's character, I guess. But this was the first time that they showed that character in this episode. And it was such a beautiful, beautiful episode. It was so beautifully done. And it was funny. I was really scared it was going to be one of those tearjerkers again. And I was like, my emotions cannot handle this. But

it was really funny. And it was really heartfelt. And it was emotional. But, you know, the actors who they cast to play Cookie, Janae, Janae Dawn, is so incredible in this. And but, you know, we we went to a watch party to watch this episode with her. But, you know, we went to a watch party to watch this episode with her. And, you know, afterwards, we were having the same conversation about, you know, she's a Native actress. And she was like, you know,

I'm typecast as the dead Native girl. And she's like, no shade to, like, reservation dogs or anything. She goes, but that's just the reality. She goes, whenever I go out for a part or I audition, it's always for the dead native girl. She goes, it's just how they typecast her. She's like, you know, and she's actually going to be in Flowers of the Killer Moon. Oh, okay.

So, you know, she's going to be one of the sisters in that. And, you know, it's a big role for her. And again, you know, it's like she was saying, typecast as the dead Native girl. Like, I don't get to live in the comfort I'm in. But, you know, she's such an incredible actress. But, you know, like these conversations, like I feel like need to be had about the opportunities that are given to Native women. Because in almost any show that we, where it is about Native women, that woman is always going to be raped. She's always going to be murdered.

There's always going to be an incredible amount of violence enacted against her. And it's such a shame because, you know, that shouldn't be normalized. And it always is. And it's never shown as in a way where it's like raising awareness. It's always exploitative. Even Wind River, a lot of people, you know, really use that show. And they're like, it's the first show to really talk about the murdered and missing indigenous women. And I'm like, but it's so exploitative and it kind of centers on that white saviorship and it doesn't talk about how that violence is wrong or, you know, that it needs to change. It just kind of plays into why it's happening.

Yeah. And so there's a lot of hard conversations that still need to be had. But, you know, thankfully, we have actresses like Amber Midthunder. There's also Crystal Lightning, who, you know, has won awards for her role in Trickster, which was an incredible series as well. But the opportunities that they're given to be just anything more than, you know, these stereotypical tropes, you know, that. Oh, the other trope is also the drunk woman or the drunk Indian woman and the dead Native woman. Like those are the two roles that Native women get in Hollywood usually. And it's such a shame because Native women are so strong. They're so fierce. Even now, when you look at the different issues that affect Indian country, it's always Native women right there on the front lines before anybody else. And, you know, for us to just constantly be shown in is so successful and has, you know, the institutional knowledge passed on from her parents. And also it's like the fact that she is such a large, seems like such a large exception to this is like so discouraging.

I really, I really loved that she seems determined to continue pushing the industry and using the power and knowledge she does have and also like speaking to what we were discussing a little earlier the enormous pressure that that puts on her that is like not a fair pressure to put on anyone much as a young person like that's just absurd yeah and it's I mean it's incredible because, I mean, with Prey, she could have easily just rode this success out and not address any of these issues and just been like, it was a great experience. It was good. You know, everything's awesome.

You know, I'm so happy to be here. But the fact that she's taken the risk to acknowledge how hard it is to be in the industry and the realities of being in the industry you know makes her incredible in my eyes even more so because she is young yeah and she is using her platform you know it kind of reminds me of when Ashley calling bull won Mrs. World you know and she told them what did you think when she started getting backlash about speaking about Native issues he's like did you think when she started getting backlash about speaking about Native issues? She's like, did you think I was just going to take this crown and stand here and be pretty? She's like, no, I'm going to use this platform for the betterment of my people.

And, you know, and I feel like that's kind of like the role that so many, you know, Native entertainers and Native talent, they kind of get cast into that and i'm really looking forward to the day when they get to just be actors when they get to just be writers and not have to be advocates as well right yeah absolutely um is there anything else that we'd like to touch on about about the movie about behind the scenes about um i have one really quick thing, which is that on IMDb, the French trappers who are the only white characters you see on screen are credited like their characters names are things like big beard and waxed mustache. The way that indigenous people in movies have been credited as things like Indian. Right. Indian man. You know, so just that like the white people are big beard and waxed mustache.

I enjoyed that very much. Yeah. And it kind of goes back to showing just how intentional they were with this film. The fact that even in the movie, the French traders were never translated. We have no idea, unless you speak French, what they were saying. Yeah, there's no subtitles for it because it's just like, well, who gives a shit?

And that, yeah, that does feel reflective of how Native people have been portrayed in the past. Yeah. And further demonstrates that the movie is told from an indigenous perspective because she doesn't know french exactly and there's a scene and i didn't know this until i watched the comanche dub of this but there's a scene um in the english version where so obviously like when you're when you're watching the English version when you're watching the Comanche people speak to each other you assume that they are actually speaking in Comanche even though we

are seeing them speak in English but there's a scene where the French guy is speaking to Naru in English and my brain understood it as oh she knows English and the French guy is speaking to her in English but then when you watch the Comanche version the French guy is speaking to her in English. But then when you watch the Comanche version, the French guy knows Comanche and is speaking to her in Comanche. You never hear her speak English in the Comanche version. I think that that scene is a little weird in the English version. It doesn't make sense. It makes more sense in the Comanche dub. Totally.

Yeah, and it's so funny, too, that you mentioned that, because I was cracking up because of all the ridiculous, you know, like faux boy reactions that came from this movie that, you know, like Amber had recently addressed them as well. But one of the things that I found so funny was that part of the criticism from people was like, they speak English so well. Oh, my. They were like, you know, I really love the film, but it was just so weird that the natives spoke English. And it's like, wait a second, you're surprised that in a movie in America where a large part of the population speaks English.

And only English. And only English, that the natives speak English. And I was like, how many other movies have they, like, there been, like, where the characters are, you know, it's just supposed to be, like, inferred that they're speaking another language, but we're hearing it in English that nobody's had a problem with. But suddenly it's a problem because it's natives. I was like, so you're telling me that you think that the hobbits were speaking English.

You know, it's like, what? They never cease to amaze with the reaching they are willing to do to not like something. It's just, oh, my fucking God. Yeah. Like, it was so funny to me because i was like of all the things to criticize like that is the weirdest thing that i've heard is like you're so surprised that native people can speak english in america right that a film in america for american critics is in english like what yeah absurd um the last thing i wanted to touch on was I just this was

like a little story touch that I'm like wow we are we are trained to expect so little from how women are written in movies I just liked that Naru was good at a lot of different things like I don't know that I'd ever heard it like framed like this in a movie of just like why is this the thing you want to do you're good at a lot of things which is like true of so many kids but I feel like it's like a whatever protagonist writing trope to be like they're really good at this one thing and this one thing is all they can do because blah blah destiny and I just like that she had a lot of different skills she used a lot of different skills. She used a lot of different skills throughout the movie. Like she used her knowledge of medicine at several different points.

It became relevant several times. Her mom was like, well, why don't you want to do this? You're good at this. And she's, you know, she's just like, well, yeah, I'm, I know how to do a lot. This is the thing I want to do. And I just simple thing, but I liked it. I did too. I really loved that because it kind of showed versatility. Yeah. And also just that, you know, like any human being, like we're, we're not just one thing, like we're a multitude of things. Like we wear many different hats. Like I don't know a single person who is just a doctor or just a lawyer or just a writer like you're like even me. Like, and I know I get this from my mom because, you know, my mom, she was a teacher. She was a firefighter at one point.

She was a security guard. You know, she did this whole wide variety of different jobs, you know, because and I think a lot of that was because she had me young and she also had a lot of experiences when she was younger that kind of limited what she could do. So I think once she got older and once his kids got old enough to kind of, you know, live without her needing to be there 24 seven. Um, she started exploring like what it is she wanted to do and what her talents were. I mean, she was an incredible artist. She could sing. Um, there were so many things that she did. And I look back at it and I'm like, you know, even without even knowing it, you know, I kind of followed my mom's footprints, like her lead, because, you know, I've done corporate management. I was a fitness instructor, which is so hilarious to me now. But, you know, I've had all these different jobs, you know, I'm a writer. And then now, you know, recently, I'm an artist. And not just an artist,

but like an award winning artist now. And it's something that I never really thought of, you know, that, you know, like I used to draw, I used to doodle, but I never really saw it as anything I could do like professionally or anything like that. But it kind of followed Naru's too, because, you know, her skills were necessary for her survival, which is basically the same as my professional trajectory because I have lupus. And so, you know, in every job that I've had, I've had to leave for health reasons. And so like I have to be adaptable. And, you know, even now with art, I've been a graphic designer and digital artist since I was in my 20s. but I have like three of my fingers that are starting to kind of twist. And so I don't have the mobility that I used to have. And so like I started looking at,

okay, well, what can I do creatively that I can still do creatively? And so, you know, I discovered port art, fluid art, and it's kind of worked well for me. And I was like, oh, you know what? I am an an artist like I'm not just a graphic designer or a digital artist in which I never saw as being an artist because I did it for money like I didn't feel like it was me and I always felt like I was just bringing other people's creations to life so I didn't feel like it was my artistry at all right so you know it was kind of fun for me to watch Naru and for her to have all these different skills and to be able to use them because it speaks to how native people kind of had

to survive colonization as well and how we continue to survive in this society like we have to be adaptable and we don't always have all the resources that we need, but we have to be able to use what we have. And, you know, and I've been able to somehow still keep myself alive, you know, by being adaptable, by being able to go from like corporate management to doing a fitness tech to, you know, becoming an artist in order to survive. And it was so fun for me to see Nauru have those, that same adaptability and for them to show it in the way that they did yeah to quote your own piece back at you uh you say that this that this movie quote is a rare tribute to the ingenuity strength and sheer stubbornness that has allowed native people to survive the forces that threaten our survival, unquote. Yeah, and it's so true. Like when I watched the movie, you know, like I said, I was blown away. But there was such an emotional connection with every aspect of the movie because of that, you know, you get to see like, just the people in the village as well, you know, what they were doing day to day to survive and to thrive in their environment.

And it wasn't an easy environment, as we saw with Nauru. Like, there were mountain lions. They had a kid being taken out of their village by a mountain lion. Like, that was their day to day reality. There were bears. There were all these. And that was the cool thing, too, was to kind of how they showed that there were so many threats around Native people at the time. Like it wasn't just the predator. And even the ending of the film when she defeated the predator and she went back to the village and she gave him their head.

But then she threw the gun and she told them we need to move to higher ground. The fact that the predator wasn't the biggest threat and Naru knew that, you know, like she knew I'm going, like, we're going to defeat this threat, but this other one, I don't know if we can because of the nature of that threat. Right. And it was so beautiful to see that and to kind of show that, you know, she just had this all-out brawl. They lost all the warriors, you know, like their young warriors in the village. She lost her brother, but yet the battle wasn't over. Like they were still facing a threat that they had to address. And I thought that was the most incredible thing.

Even when Tayabi died, and they flashed to the warrior bringing his, like his, I guess it was his arrow sheath back to the village and his mom saw it and she just knew that her son was gone. And she, you know, she thought she lost Naru too. And knowing that her kids were gone, you know, you could see that grief on her face, but she didn't have the opportunity to really just feel it. Like she turned around and she went back to doing what she was doing because it's what needed to happen for the betterment of the community. And so I really was just struck with how they were showing all these

like communal relationships, that kinship, and also, you know, just how Native people had to be adaptable and how they had to use the resources around them. And when it flashed back to Naru, you know, she's on that riverbank and, you know, she just lost her brother. And she's like, you know, thinking like, oh, I can't do this. But then she sees the big trader guy at the river and she's like okay you mean big beard it's on a big beard she's like that's it it's on that sequence was so such a good action sequence and so cathartic and just like there's so much like in a in a relatively like um i don't mean simple in a reductive, but it's like a very pared down story. But it's just like there are those huge moments of impact and a lot of the like what you just described with just like a single shot of.

Yeah. Naru's mom communicated so much about the character, about the family, about the community, about the time. And it's just like this small moment, like this movie is full of moments like that. Yeah. I mean, the part that really had me in tears though, was when Tayabi died. Yeah. Because it's not a big scene.

It didn't lead up to it. Like where it came, you know, like was an action-packed scene. You know, he knew he could, he heard the predator step and he knew that, okay, I'm not getting out of this. And he took what time he had left instead of trying to run or save himself. You know, he took that time, he accepted it. And he told Naru, he was like, this is it. This is as far as I go.

Yeah. You know, you have to bring this home now. Like, and and and then she says it later and you're like I know I was like why because it was such a beautiful moment for him to say that because you know throughout the film he'd been so supportive of her Katmia and even when she didn't succeed you know he was still telling her like, oh, you know, he's like, you can still bring it home. Like, you know, like you, we still have to, like, even if we don't succeed, like we still have to keep going because we do have to protect our community. Like it's larger than just him or her, like it's about the community and for him to take that time. And for for naru to understand in that moment too like it's no longer just about her and her katamiya but the protection of her entire village now like it's on her because there's no

one left you know and for her brother to tell her like it's on you to bring it home and to basically reassure her like you got this yeah before he died and for him to even take his last moments to make sure that she could get away because she was so stunned yeah you know I was just like oh my gosh how they packed so much emotion in that scene as quick as it was I was like in tears the sibling the sibling bond in this movie is just like absolutely incredible. I really loved it. Very well played. Yeah. Like, and even the ending, you know, like I teared up at the ending as to, you know, and it was for the most funniest reason and it's actually been kind of memed. Um, but the little girl, like when she comes back to the village and you know

they name her the next war chief and there's that little girl who's just looking at her with such awe on her face yeah like I was tearing up and I was like but it hit me so emotionally because you know even for me like growing up I didn't have the role models that I needed because when I was younger like I wanted to be like an epidemiologist when I was younger, like, I wanted to be, like, an epidemiologist. This is when outbreak came out, and I wanted to be in the thick of Ebola, you know, and all these infectious diseases and stuff. But people would tell me, like, why? Like, no Native is doing this. No Native is there.

And, you know, and that's what I saw around me was there was no native scientist or like, cause of course we don't have the internet like we do now. So I didn't have that representation around me. Yeah. That's why it's so important to have opportunities to see yourself represented in media and represented in all industries, you know, not just entertainment. Um, was there anything else that anyone wanted to talk about? Um, I think that was it for me. Yeah, I think that was it. Although we should add the disclaimer that recently it's been talked about that Dakota

Beavers may or may not have native heritage. And it's a little bit more complicated because even if he's not native, you know, he's still an indigenous person within the larger indigenous diaspora. So, you know, it is complicated and it's something that is still being investigated. You know, it's been proven that he doesn't have ties to the tribes that he claimed, but that still doesn't necessarily mean that he has, that he doesn't have ties to a Native tribe. It's just that, especially, you know, like the history in New Mexico and around the area, Native people through that area, you know, it's always really complicated. So, you know, he's

still doing a lot of research because, you know, he's always really complicated. So, you know, he's still doing a lot of research because, you know, he was told all his life that he was Apache and Pueblo and it turns out that he's not. So, you know. So it's not as though he was like lying. It's just that he was kind of possibly like misinformed. Exactly. Exactly. Got it. And, you know, and even without that, you know, he would still be an indigenous person. So, you know, it's a lot more complicated than, say, like Elizabeth Warren. Right. Yeah, that was a pretty cut and dry situation. young and you know this is his first movie role and of course you know when once you're in that spotlight then everything is under intense scrutiny no matter if you're native or not so you know I really feel bad that this is his kind of introduction to that spotlight but

you know it's just I feel really bad for him. Sure. But also, you know, I just really hope that it doesn't really end up with like harassment or, you know, him being vilified for it because it's not like he intentionally lied. Right. And he was apparently up front with the producers and everybody beforehand and he was still hired. So it's a really complicated situation because at that point, too, you know, the responsibility falls on, you know, on his family and also, you know, the people that hired him knowing that he had questionable ties. So, you know, he kind of really did just get go into this thinking like, I'm OK um and that's another reason I feel so bad for him because it's not like he had a reason to not believe his parents or his family when they told him you know about who his what his heritage was right so you know and he probably grew up all his

life thinking you know that's who he was and then now it's just gone. So I'm sure that's like a cultural shock as well. So, you know, I mean, I just, I just feel really bad for him. But I think that's important to put out there just because, you know, when it comes to Native representation, it's really hard for Native people to get roles as it is. And non-Natives are constantly being cast in native roles. So, you know, I do think that it needs to be kind of discussed, you know, that, you know, why this is a conversation, why this is an issue, and also just to let people be aware that it's not always cut and dry. You know, like there's a lot of history with colonization. It's done a number on our ties to our communities.

It's intentionally severed connections to your communities. So, you know, there are a lot of Natives who are not enrolled who are legitimately Native, but because of blood quantum and different tribal enrollment requirements, even though they're Native, they may not necessarily qualify to be citizens of their nation. So, you know, there's a lot of gray area. We had Natives who were adopted out, Natives who lost their ties through residential boarding schools, and it's just a really complicated history to try and untangle. And, you know, again, I think that's why I feel so bad for him because he's suddenly having to deal deal with all this and you know of course shoulder all the responsibility and the blame for something that wasn't necessarily his fault or

something that he didn't necessarily do intentionally of course yeah yeah and this is still a developing situation so at the time of this recording right I guess for our listeners because we record kind of far in advance sometimes we're recording this on september 15th so that is and also like johnny i genuinely was not even aware of that situation before today so it's like yeah very much um a developing story i mean yeah i wish everyone the best i mean that that is an incredible mind fuck for someone who's so early in the public eye yeah oh yeah definitely um what's that the bechdel test oh the bechdel test ever heard of it

i have does this movie pass the bechdel test i believe it does between naru and her mother yeah they talk about hunting food medicine her future i mean they talk about a lot of stuff yeah her skills yeah and i wanted to give one more shout out to the ali nadi test which naru in this movie passes with flying colors so shout out to the ali nadi test. And then we've got our nipple scale. The only perfect media metric. It's flawless. 10 out of 10, no notes. We rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples

based on how it does when you look at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I would give this movie i want to give it a four four nipples i'm gonna take a little bit of nipplage off for the behind the scenes as far as the movie was written and directed by white men. This is not their story to tell. I don't know why indigenous filmmakers couldn't have been given the opportunity to, you know, be the creative minds behind this movie. And I think that led to kind of the main thing that pinged for all of us as far as the way gender is treated in the movie as far as like European style patriarchal values being foisted onto this culture and community where that didn't

fully track so but there's just like so much else to to love about this movie as far as indigenous representation and this movie pushing the needle forward in that regard. I want to share a quick quote from Amber Midsunder where she says, quote, this is the first time you get to see an indigenous female action hero at the center of a film that in and of itself is a really incredible statement unquote and it's like yeah the fact that this is the first time we're getting that in the year 2022 and i will also yeah like it's amazing but also i'm gonna add and i was talking with to amber about this too is that i'm asexual and one of the things that really that I really loved about this movie too is that she got to be an action star without a love interest yes yes there was no male figure trying to pull her into a domestic life or her having to choose between her people and a man right right and like there

was no love story and the love story that did exist was between you know all of the the native characters and their community and so you know as somebody who's asexual and to see a movie where there is no love interest or you know romance being pushed onto any of the characters as part of pushing them forward or kind of developing as a person. Like, that was phenomenal to me. And they did it so organically, like it didn't seem forced or, you know, it wasn't like they were like, oh, well, because she wants to be a warrior, no one wants to marry her or nobody is attracted to her kind of thing. Right.

So, you you know I really love that she just got to be Naru yes you know and just like a fully developed person on her own without you know a male figure having to come in and try and control her or you know change the course of her action or it just you know I mean it was just phenomenal to me like I was so excited by that as somebody who is asexual because in almost every movie we watch there is a love triangle of some sort which is remarkable I mean in the action genre at all I feel like it there's always a love story that is that or very often a love story that feels extremely shoehorned in, almost in this weird marketing attempt to be like, we need everyone to see this movie.

Who likes a really forced heterosexual romance? And it's like, not everybody, that's for sure. I came to see a snake, a predator, and a girl with an axe. And I left satisfied and I I totally agree like having the most powerful bond in this movie be between siblings is really rare and like powerful and cool yeah and it and it was there and not in a weird way because there's a weird thing with siblings in movies where they're way too flirty with each other you know like there's just this weird dynamic with siblings that never really

hits with me you know like I'm thinking back to Monica and Ross and friends you know they're always hanging around on each other Luke and Leia yeah like there's just I mean there's some weird sibling relationships out there so it was really nice to see one where, you know, it felt like a sibling relationship with the teasing and, you know, just kind of giving each other a hard time. But also that genuine care that they had for each other. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So with all of that in mind, I will give the movie four nipples. I will award one to Naru.

I will give one to producer Jane Myers. I will give a nipple to Sari the dog. And I'll give my final nipple to the tooth brushing scene, which I really appreciated and was from what I read carefully researched and you know shout out to brushing your teeth hell yeah I'll meet you at four nipples I think that this is a I mean like it's a really fucking cool movie I love that the production took such care to represent indigenous culture so specifically in time and in their tribe and and i mean the weird girl boss element of like like modern feminism those moments were a little jarring but thankfully they did not throw the movie off course.

I feel like Naru is such a strong protagonist. Like she's you can't not root for her and you can't not root for her whole community, even when they are at odds and even when they're being stalked by Predator. And you kind of can't help but root for Predator in a couple of moments also, because at the end of the day, he is Caitlin's boyfriend. And so I try to be respectful of that. But yeah, I really love this movie. I agree that the fact that we're still kind of in this cultural moment where

this, whatever the, the Hollywood powers that be seems to feel that you still needed a white director and co-writer to uh make this movie happen with the institutional support it received is super discouraging as we discussed i mean i i feel like you know there's no world in which an indigenous filmmaker shouldn't get the first option to make a movie like this with the institutional support at the same level right and um it's really frustrating that that is still not a place where we're at but i do agree that this is a good stepping stone movie to

bring what i hope will be more indigenous stories by indigenous people or honestly indigenous filmmakers getting institutional support to make whatever they want. Yeah. So, and I will say it's really hard for me too, because I, I, in my head after seeing prey,

I've super been wanting to just go hard campaigning for Dan Trachtenberg to direct, or even just option Stephen Graham Jones, The Only Good Indians, which is one of the most terrifying native horror books that I've read in such a long time. Like, it just haunts me. But after See and Pray, I think that he would be the one director that could possibly bring it to life in a way that does it justice. And I was like, oh, Johnny, you're such a traitor.

You're such a traitor. Well, Dan Trachtenberg, I mean, he directed the hell out of this movie. It's no slight to him. And also, you know, Clover, oh, my goodness. Clover. 10 Cloverville Lane. Yes. It's so good.

It was so good. i you know i had i i really wanted to hate it um going in and the story just kind of really got me interested and i was just thinking oh like this is a good twist you know she thinks the world's ending and she's just down here with this crazy dude but then she gets out and lo and behold, the world has gone nuts. That's right. I was like, oh, my God, I love this. And then seeing Prey, I was thinking, huh, I want to see Only Good Indians as a movie. Dan seems to have a good grasp on horror and, you know,

what really kind of grabs those human elements, you know, like with the relationships, you know, beyond just the horror, you know, what really kind of grabs those human elements, you know, like with the relationships, you know, beyond just the horror, you know. Even better sometimes I'm just like, OK, now like Dan Trachtenberg could be the kind of person to like champion an adaptation, find an indigenous director who would do an amazing job with it and just like help steer the ship and keep things on board and keep institutions out of the way you know exactly like yeah I mean there's so many options there but I was like Johnny you're such a traitor you're such a traitor and and it's funny because I mean I honestly you know I did not expect to like pray like if we were having this conversation in 2016, I'd be like, no nipples. We're taking their nipples completely away. But now it's like, I will give them all the nipples. Well, on that note, what is your nipple rating? I actually would give them a four and a half.

I think they did such a phenomenal job because they really did have to turn that script around. Hearing some of the behind the scenes conversations with like Jane Myers and also with a lot of the Comanche people that came on board to to kind of help develop the film, the original script was as bad as I thought it was. So they did have to tweak quite a bit and a lot of those little moments too, of where kind of like that misogyny, where it just feels like, okay, that's, that's not native. That's not our culture. That wouldn't be, you know, how Comanche men treated their women. A lot of those moments, you know, kind of slipped through because of trying to, I guess you would say, make it understandable from a mainstream perspective of what this story was. So I take away half a nipple for that because I honestly just can't wait to where, you know, we get a Native film, you know, like where it's like reservation dogs, where it can be told through that Native lens, completely through a native lens without having to try and figure out

how to translate that also through a white lens yeah right so but I mean I think they did like a phenomenal job everything about that movie like there's so many little hidden easter eggs like there's the scene where she's walking through right before the hunting party finds her after she gets out of the mud and everything. But if you look in that scene, you will actually see those Comanche warriors hiding behind the trees and in the background. So if you're not watching, like, you'll miss it. But that's one of the things that Comanche people were known for, was being able to hide and sneak up on people.

So if you really watch that scene, you'll see them in the background. Cool. That's so wild. So, you know, and there's also a part where she whistles at night and the predator shows up, which is one of those things for Native people is very taboo. You don't whistle at night because you don't know what's going to whistle back or what it's going to bring forth, like what spirit. So it was really cool to have them have her whistle at night. And then here comes the monster, you know, just kind of like solidifying that that belief. So, I mean, there were so many little Easter eggs, little things that were hidden that, you know, if you're Native,

it really kind of just made you realize, like, they took such incredible care with this movie. And they wanted Native people to really connect with it. And, you know, I really think it did a good job of resonating with Native people because of that. So, you know, I think they just did an incredible job overall. Awesome. I'm so glad we got to talk about this movie with you as well thank you for coming on the show oh thank you for having me come back anytime to talk about whatever movie you'd like and um where can people uh check out your stuff online follow you on social media anything like that plug away well folks can find me online at johnny j on twitter on facebook and instagram

and also check out a tribe called geek at www.atribecalledgeek.com we have some great stuff coming up in terms of like content but also i am so happy to announce that indigenous pop x is back since the pandemic which for those of you who don't know is kind of like the rebranding of indigenous comic-con um cool so i am super excited that we are back and we're going to be holding it in march of 2023 in oklahoma city at the first americans museum so that's an incredible as well. But I mean, it's just an incredible celebration of indigenous pop culture. So if you're in the OKC area, check it out.

I'm pretty sure things will be live streamed. As far as other things that are coming up, I'm going to be sharing some live streams in the next coming weeks from a conference that I'm getting ready to head out to tomorrow. And I'll be doing my. Surviving the zombie apocalypse. Rez style presentation.

As well as some live art demonstrations. Amazing that's so cool. Very cool. Yeah. And you can find us. In all the usual online places. On Instagram and Twitter. At Bexelcast.

You can follow us on our Patreon. Aka Matreon. Five dollars a us on our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon. $5 a month gets you two additional episodes around a special theme that you help Caitlin and I pick every month. Or sometimes we just pick ourselves. So this month we're going to be doing some fun horror movies, including the James Wan masterpiece, Malignant. Oh my goodness. And also Final Destination 3. So lots to look forward to over there and uh caitlin where can we get uh some merch some merch that you designed jamie

loftus which we don't mention enough um you can get that at tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast. So, you know, support Jamie's art, why don't you? Yes. Follow your heart. Look, no hard feelings either way. And with that... Click, click, click, click, click. Click, click, click, click. That's how Predator says bye-bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

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