The Bechdel Cast - Pride and Prejudice (2005)

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

We're bewitching you body and soul by unlocking this Matreon episode on Pride and Prejudice (2005). Check on Caitlin's unpcoming comedy shows & workshops in State College, PA and Brooklyn, NY -- tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcastSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless, D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one.

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless, D***less Me on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless S***less Me on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. You get your podcast. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all-new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi.

And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class, and Mandatory Ayahuasca Ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses.

But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm ready to fight. Oh, this is fighting words. Okay.

I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us, you know? We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast.

Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello, listeners. Here we are. Here we are. And what are we doing? Well, we are unlocking a matriarch episode. Ever heard of it? I think so.

OK, great. On the movie Pride and Prejudice 2005. I'm so excited. We're doing this. We don't unlock matriot episodes very often. If you're new to the show, we have a Patreon, AKA matriot, where we do two bonus episodes every month. Feel free to join if you enjoy this episode.

But the reason we're unlocking this specific episode from a couple years ago now is it's the 2005 Pride and Prejudice. It is one of the only, even though we are a famously book-hating podcast, we read the damn book this time, which, I mean, really, the return on investment is extraordinary in this one.

But the reason we decided to release it now is because it is a very popular request on the main feed and it is being re-released into theaters to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the film. So we thought, you know, why not now? And it is, you know, it is a movie near and dear to my heart and we really hope you enjoy the episode. Indeed. We released this originally as a part of a matriarch theme called Jane

you airy, Austin August, in which we covered two movie adaptations of Jane Austin books, this one pride and prejudice, as well as Emma period from 2020. So, uh, yeah, we're, we're unlocking this one. One last thing I'd like to plug is I am doing a stand up show a little, you know, an evening with Caitlin Durante and friends in State College Pennsylvania. Ever heard of it? It's where I would usually say that with very famous cities and not to disparage state college, but I was like, some people might say no.

Some people might say no. Well, it's the home of Penn State University's main campus, which is where I went to school the first time. I rarely talk about it because it has nothing to do with my master's degree from Boston University. For sure. But I'm doing a standup show there, as well as I'm teaching a stand-up

workshop a couple days later. So this is all on the weekend of April 11th. So the show is on April 11th. The workshop that I'm teaching is on April 13th. Tickets for those things are on our link tree as well as the description of this episode. And I'd love for you to come out if you're in the central Pennsylvania area or wherever. Do a little road trip, check out Penn State's campus. It's pretty. It is very pretty.

And then come see me do comedy. You can't see me that weekend. I'll be at my cousin's wedding. And as far as I know, aren't on sale to the wedding. Go to Caitlin show. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe she'll open it up later. Oh damn.

Hopefully. Yeah. Also jumping in here separately recording a voice memo because I just confirmed another show on April 15th. I'm going to be in New York City doing a show called a night to remember with Caitlin Durante because April 15th, I'm going to be in New York City doing a show called A Night to Remember with Caitlin Durante because April 15th, in addition to being the date of this show, is also the date Titanic Sink. So of course I'm doing a Titanic themed stand up show about it at Union Hall in Brooklyn with a really great lineup that includes a lot of past Bechtel Cast guests, and I'm donating proceeds from ticket sales to the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund.

So please, please, please come to this show. It's going to be a really fun time. Again, tickets to all of these events can be found at linktree slash bechtelcast. Scoot over there, grab your tickets, have the the best time come say hi after the shows and without much further ado here is our unlocked episode on pride and prejudice and now Tom Wamskans as mr. Darcy the Bechdel cast Jamie you have bewitched me body and soul oh I love, I love, I love you. I was getting so emotional.

It's really beautiful. It's really beautiful. Yeah, sorry, I know, I know, but also I kind of don't know. I'm like, wow. I don't know either. I truly, there's no perfect love story, but this is like, oh my God. Okay.

Welcome to the Pride and Prejudice episode. First of all, I think we should just acknowledge at the top, we were wrong to avoid this for so long. Yeah. Because we're like, I mean, it was a lot of prep. We'll get there. But I think that like, as far as like effectively told love stories about the complexities of love and getting to know each other and like

learning one another over time and having empathy and compassion and I was just like it's so good I kept crying like Darcy's ultimately he's an act like that. I I still wouldn't have ultimately gone for Darcy No, but I'm lying. Well, okay, that's the thing. But I'm full of shit. I can watch this movie and be like, wow, this tugs at my heartstrings. And especially as someone who is deeply cynical

and is just, much like Lizzie thinks she's going to be an old maid, I think that about myself. So I'm just like, oh, love. But then I watch this movie and I'm like, maybe love is real. I don't know. But then also there's a lot of things about the romance in this movie where I'm like, I don't know about this.

But then then it's like also in the historical context, you're like, right. Like, well, then the other half of my you're like, right. The like, well, the. But then the other half of my brand is like, I don't care because love. Nobody, I know I kept being like, nobody's perfect after all. All you can hope for is growth. And they both grew so much.

It makes me cry. And also, I know you still don't watch Succession, but to all of the matrons who do watch Succession, this is just a little chat between me and you, because what a fun rewatch this is after you've seen, I know I've described this to you a million times, Caitlin, but Mr. Darcy on Succession plays the most cowardly man from the Midwest that you've ever seen in your life like he's

just like a total like I it's hard to say but he plays a character named like Tom Wamsgans and okay you just have to see how different he is to fully and this is a feminist podcast and I'm like Matthew McFadden is the most talented actor in the world but, he's pretty amazing. Is that how you say his name, McFadden? Yes. Okay. Which I only know because I watch all his Succession interviews, cause I'm a dork.

He's so good and looks so different, and it's also like, whatever, 15 years later, as Tom Wamskans that I didn't realize for like the first season of Succession that he was Mr. Dawsey. Whoa, okay. I'm done praising men, but I love Matthew McFadden. So Pride and Prejudice, okay, we finally did it, and.

We read the book. We read the fucking book. And we liked, did you like, sorry, I liked the book. I don't like the book, which I'm sure is like heresy. It's blasphemy. I find it. Books are boring. Books are boring, no.

I don't even think that's a controversial take at this point in society. Books are famously boring. It is written in language that is old enough that I don't fucking understand a single word of it. There are too many characters. There's a lot of just like meandering story that doesn't really serve much of a function.

We're not literary critics, okay? But I think the movie is a great example of like an adaptation that very effectively takes a book that I know is beloved and I know it's great. I just didn't understand, I didn't enjoy myself when I was reading it. I found it confusing and I don't know who any of the characters are.

But I think the movie does a really good job of streamlining the story and like condensing things and like really focusing the narrative into a movie that I've watched four times now. Really? It's a week. It's so like, we'll get there. I mean, I will say that the reason, a lot of the reason that the book is kind of,

it feels like it's repeating itself constantly and like introducing random people is because it was released in three volumes. Oh. Yeah, that was like a Regency novel thing where you would get the book in three chunks. So that's why I feel like at some points it's either repeating yourself or like characters that are in one section

kind of disappear because you're like, well, it's kind of like the second volume of Pride and Prejudice. So these characters are here for now and then they're gone. I did enjoy, I mean, we both listened to the Rosamund Pike, Rosamund Pike, Rosamund Pike. Don't know.

Rosamund Pike audio book, which is a delight. It was really, I was, if, matrons, if I'm sounding loopy today, it's cause I am. I was just in Florida for a week. You're doing great. But I was in a hotel room in Tallahassee last weekend listening to the Pride and Prejudice audio book on my portable speaker.

And someone banged on the wall and was like, turn it down. Pah. Because Rosamund Pike was just wailing. She was wailing about. I didn't realize that the walls were that thin, but it was a super eight So what can you do? I mean and she's doing different voices. She's so versatile in her performance I love that. She loved being in Pride and Prejudice so much that she was like, yeah hundred percent like

What a fun way to be just like Jane Austen Canon, you know, anyways as you were, I think that this movie, sorry, because it was also adapted as a British mini series that I know people love, that I thought I considered watching. I'm like, I already read a book. This is so damn long. I did watch the first half of the first episode. And I do intend to finish it, but it is is very long and I didn't have the patience

for it and then time ran out. We know what happens in the movie, okay? Like we know what happens in the story. But this is the Joe Wright 2005 adaptation starring, I would say this is the Millennial Pride and Prejudice. The mini-series is the Gen X Pride and Prejudice. This is the Millial Pride and Prejudice. The mini-series is the Gen X Pride and Prejudice. Sure, sure. This is the millennial Pride and Prejudice.

It's Keira Knightley, it's Tom from Succession, it's Donald Sutherland. I kind of, and it was kind of fun, I hadn't seen this movie in, well, okay. What's your history with it? I loved Pride and Prejudice in middle school. I loved Jane Austen in middle school. This was early into my, you know, look.

I'm not like other girls. And I was really, do you like books? Cause I like book and reading. And so I was kind of cultivating. I was hacking away at that persona while I was wearing a back brace because I really needed something else to be my thing. And I will say, if there's any 12 year olds looking for something to be their thing when

they're wearing a back brace, I wouldn't recommend books. It's not much cooler. Books in the opal are not going to make you more popular at school. I don't know what I was thinking. You know, but I was really into trying to, I mean, I was really into, that's like why Lolita podcast exists. I was really into like trying to read books that were a little out of my depth,

but I just wanted to feel like I could read a big old book. So I read Jane Austen novels and I sort of understood them and there are also so many that this like this pride and prejudice came out right around the time I would have been trying to read it by myself to the point That I have a really nice memory with my dad around this movie mm-hmm because this movie came out when I was in like sixth or seventh grade and It was not how fine it was not, how fine, it was, oh I guess it was very financially successful. It made $121 million, wow.

Off of a $28 million budget, yeah. That's really good. But it wasn't playing in my area at like the big AMC. Like it wasn't playing at the big theaters. You had to like drive 45 minutes to like an independent movie theater to go see it, and I really wanted to see it, and I thought, my dad was like, oh, I'll take you to the local movie theater and we'll go,

and then we looked it up and it wasn't playing, and originally he was like, sorry, I guess you'll just have to wait for it to come out on DVD, and I was like, okay. And then the next day, he woke me up and he was like, I've changed my mind. We're going to drive 45 minutes to see the movie. And so he, I know it was really nice.

We went to this. I need to remember what the name of it was in case any of the matrons live in Hingham, Massachusetts, but it was like this old, I'd never been to a movie theater like it before. It was like this, it wasn't like a multiplex cinema, it had like a balcony, and I remember like I'd never seen a movie theater with a balcony, and it was old, and it was Pride and Prejudice, and Pride and Prejudice is old,

and it was like one of my favorite memory, I like wrote about it in my journal, it was like top moments of 2005. Wow. Going to Pride and Prejudice with Dad, sat in balcony. It's just such a lovely memory. And I loved the movie. I used to own it on DVD when I was a kid, but I haven't seen it in a long time, like

paying attention. And I was so relieved because nothing that you saw when you were 12 holds up. And I really loved watching this movie. And I feel like I appreciated it even more, because now I know a lot more about the filmmakers and the actors, and I can appreciate the economy of storytelling. That's what I'm saying, yes.

But on all fronts, the screenplay trims out characters that you don't... And I really like the characters that they choose to scale back to. Miss Bingley is scaled way back from in the book, where you get the idea, where like, yeah, she's a snob. That's kind of all you need to know. She's a snob and she's finagling and bagling the couples. And that's all you need to know. The aunt and uncle, they're nice. That's all you need to know. The aunt and uncle, they're nice.

That's all you need to know, really. Wickham, he's a snake. That's all you need to know. You don't need to spend all this time with Wickham. And then on top of that, I kind of forgot how much I really loved Joe Wright movies when I was a teenager, because Kiera Knightley was his muse. She was in Anna Karenina, which was okay,

but like a teammate atonement. This movie confirmed to me that I'm gonna go see Cyrano. I'm going! I knew it. I was gonna see it before, but now I'm super gonna see it, because he like, he and the DP, like they tell so much about the characters

in just like one shot. Like all the shots of the house where you get much about the characters in just like one shot, like all the shots of the house where you get to know the characters in like one line of dialogue or like the shots of the parties where you like see these incredibly choreographed shots where it's like, you learn about 10 characters in the course of one shot. It's just like beautiful. And that's cinema as per Richard Gere in Chicago. And that's Chicago. And that's cinema, as per Richard Gere in Chicago. And that's Chicago. And that's cinema. It's genuinely so good.

And then the fact that it's like they cut out characters. I feel like every time we talk about adaptations, it's about, oh, and then they really inflated this random guy character from the book. And now he's like a main character. But this movie does the opposite. It scales back random guys and gives you more sisters. It still, I would say, gives you too much dad. But, and I think that is like,

I think my only major criticism of the movie is I feel like based on what I was picking up from the book and then I like kind of verified this in a couple of essays, the Bennett parents are well-intentioned, they love their children, but they're not amazing parents. They're very flawed parents. And I feel like this movie makes that clear, but it gives Donald Sutherland daddy

a redemption arc at the end, and you're still supposed to think that the mom is like, pretty silly and pretty, like, and I feel like in the book, that arc didn't happen, cause you get that whole Donald Sutherland speech where he, and I mean, I was crying, because it was really nice, but you know, that doesn't happen in the book.

He doesn't go like I love my daughter so much and whatever you want is the right thing go off Queen like there's that a whole scene, right? Which I wouldn't have minded if Mrs. Bennett got a similar kind of 2005 treatment, but I felt like Donald Sutherland daddy got this like Got this little this little flourish at the end that he doesn't get in the book. And it's like, well, do both or do none. Right, I definitely have some thoughts about the parents

and their relationship to each other and their relationship to their daughters. Yeah, so we can, we'll get into that. But also, Jenna Malone is in this movie. Jenna Malone, Carey Mulligan. I love the sprinkling of Americans. Oh this movie. I like the sprinkling of Americans. I love the sprinkling. Because I was like Jenna Malone. Donald Sutherland, Canadian.

Jenna Malone, American. Well, that thing happened where I was like, wait, has Jenna Malone secretly been English this whole time? And we just didn't know. But she just does a convincing English accent. So good for her. I think the first time I watched this movie I did not know who Carey Mulligan or Rosamund Pike were. I think I knew who Jenna Malone was because she was a child star who was in

this movie called Step Mom starring Susan Sarandon. Oh yeah yeah I've seen it. I think I think or I know about it who knows. My brain is full of too many movies I don't yeah, I've seen it. I think I think early and I know about it. Who knows I my brain is full of too many movies. I don't know what I've seen and what I haven't so I like knew who she but like most of the everyone in this movie is famous like everyone except for Mary although maybe I'll bite my tongue. She was on Westworld. She was on Westworld. OK, yeah. Not as famous. I have a whole Justice for Mary Bennet segment of my notes. But I see I liked because I felt like and maybe and again,

books are long. And I will be the first to admit that between Mary, Kitty, and Lydia, like basically the sisters who aren't Jane and Elizabeth, sometimes I'd be like, wait, which one is which personality? Like, it's kind of easy to lose track. But I felt like Mary was very visually distinct in the movie.

I wish that she had more. I wish we just like knew what happened to her. But that's also kind of like, does Jane Austen tell us what happens to Mary? No, and I think that the book cares less about the Mary character than the movie does. What I loved about movie Mary is they kind of like stylistically speaking in 2005 terms, they kind of like hot-topic'd her. They were like, this is our goth.

She's literally, cause she's kind of, she reminds me of Lydia from Beetlejuice. Well, there's a scene where they're all at the Bingley estate and it's Mrs. Bennett and then the three youngest daughters all on a couch together and the, and Mrs. Bennett and Kitty and Lydia are all wearing pastels, you know, a lavender, a pink, a light green, and then- And Mary's goth. She's in black and dark browns. I love her. She's the goth sister.

And I also loved that, I don't know, all of the characters in the book, but especially in the, I just am triply impressed with how it's done in the movie because it's less time and less baggage, but you still get, I feel like an even clearer idea of who the characters are. I like that even though Mary comes off as very standoffish and solemn and like a loner and she literally is like playing the piano all the time. Like, oh my God, hot topic sister. But she also like, you get to see her express emotion. Like she, there's that moment in one of those amazing shots where she like starts crying and Donald Sutherland,

because he's like not an emotionally intelligent dad, it's like, oh no, I made my daughter cry, shit. And this all happens in the background of a shot. It's like so amazing. I love this movie. Yeah, we check in on her. And yeah, to certain people, she might seem, you know, standoffish or aloof or whatever,

but it's just because like she's socially awkward. She's misunderstood much like Mr. Darcy, I guess, except that he's also an asshole. Mr. Darcy, I mean, Mr. Darcy, does he display growth? Yes. Does he display enough growth that I would have married him in that moment? I want to say no. I want to say no, but also I want Elizabeth to be so happy.

It makes me cry. I feel like Elizabeth Bennet and Joe March, they're just characters that you're just like, okay, I don't necessarily agree. I mean, I like Mr. Darcy better than random guy that Joe March ends up with. Random professor guy. Yeah, yeah. But you're like, okay, maybe I wouldn't have done the same thing. But you seem happy. And you've been through through so much and I want you to be happy. I just want Elizabeth Bennett to be happy Lizzie. Oh my god. She loves she loves her tall awkward bangs husband

The bangs are a lot the bangs are a lot. Wait on miss on mr Darcy? On Mr. Darcy, yeah. His hair. His hair. His head. His head. It makes me laugh because it is like, there are, I feel like for the most part, I mean, that's kind of like Joe Wright's thing.

He like creates these very engrossing, visually appealing period pieces. But you can still, I feel like the one tell that it's 2005, or the two tells is that Keira Knightley is the lead, and Mr. Darcy's hair is flat ironed, the whole movie. What is that? Why is, his hair is straightened into bangs the way that a Hot Topic sister would do. I mean, maybe that was also happening during the Regency era, but I was like, this is what

scene boys were doing at my middle school. Why is Mr. Darcy doing it? I mean, some people's hair just lays like that. I don't know. I don't know. We'll have to take it up with McFadden. But okay, what's your history with Pride and Prejudice? I had seen it right around when it came out,

just that one time, didn't ever read the book, did watch Bridget Jones's diary, and I had forgotten that it is a very loose adaptation of Pride and Prejudice. So when I started reading the book, I was like, and then to clarify that, I have a copy of the book. I listened to the Rosamund Pike. Basically, I let her read it to me as I read along in the book, I listened to the Rosamund Pike. Basically, I let her read it to me as I read along in

the book, which is how I'm going to read books from now on. I don't know why I never thought to do that before. But it's so much easier. You use the library a lot. You get audiobooks from the library. That's literally how I do ... I wouldn't be able to do any research if I couldn't listen to audiobooks period. Yeah I don't know what I was thinking before. So that's how I'm gonna, I'm just gonna like read along as some person reads at me also. So anyway that's how I consumed the book and then as I as I was consuming it I was like oh wait a minute this sounds this seems very familiar and sort of like what happens in Bridget Jones's diary

And then I was like right that is an adaptation of that Okay, so I had seen the movie only once I remembered two scenes from it and nothing else I remembered the scene where Darcy and Bingley are approaching the house for the first time a Bingley are approaching the house for the first time. A frenzy ensues because they're like, oh my God, we have to make ourselves look presentable. And then they pinch their cheeks a little bit to basically give themselves some rouge.

I distinctly remember that. And then the other scene I remember, which is one of my favorite scenes in the movie, and this also happens in the book, where Mr. Collins has proposed to Elizabeth. She has said no. Mrs. Bennett is like, Lizzie, what the hell are you doing? You got to say yes to this guy. I will never speak to you again if you don't marry him.

And then Mr. Bennett is like, well, that's what your mom says. She'll never see you again if you don't marry him and I'll never see you again if you do. And I was like, bam. I mean, it's a good moment. And it's like, that's straight from the book, baby. Like, that's a really effectively done scene. Yeah.

I love Lizzie. God. I just like, and then especially like with the historical context of like, just how, I don't know, whatever. we'll talk about women in general. I mean, and I love that this movie focuses on relationships between women quite a bit, quite a bit. I mean, the book obviously does as well,

but it also kind of goes off on these tensions. I feel like there's like, I was getting so sick of Wickham because it's like you find out he's a snake and then he's just still around and you're like, who cares? We're done with him. He's a scammer. But the fact that it's like, it's hard to reject anybody. But also, like, it wasn't just a rejection she was doing. It was like, there were ties to her future and there's ties to her, like, security security physically, mentally, emotionally. And financially is the big one. Financially, her family is all tied up in it as well. Like the stakes

were so high, but she acted to her values. She's like, I'm not going to marry this fucking asshole who I also, I think that they added added and I thought this was like a smart choice I'm pretty sure in in the book does mr. Collins say like oh, I want to marry Jane and then they're like Oh, you can't but you can marry Lizzie and then he's like, oh, okay. Does he say that? I mean, I feel like he does he definitely like proposes to her She says no, but I didn't think that there was a moment where he was like Jane's my pick And they're like sorry actually no, uh well Here's the thing about books is that I don't remember them even though I read this one a week ago So I have no fucking idea. I'm pretty sure I mean and feel free and and pride and prejudice heads

Feel free to sound off in the comments But I'm pretty sure that that doesn't happen But again, it's like it's that's a really effective story point for the movie to make it clear that it's like, yeah, she should not marry this fucking guy. Yeah, he sucks. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all-new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone.

I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Mm, pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived, investigative hookups.

Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And, as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen,

a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and Mandatory Ayahuasca Ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version

of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only.

Or listen to it with your kid. It could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless D***less Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. You get your podcast. September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album Behind Bars in just five hours. Okay, we're rolling. One, two, three, four.

I'm Jamie Petrus, music and culture writer. For the past five years, I've been talking to the band's three surviving members. They're out of prison now and in their 70s. Their past behind them. But they also have some unfinished business. The end of daybreak, eyes of love, was supposed to have been followed up by another album.

It's a story about the liberating power of music, the American justice system, and ultimately, second chances. Listen to Soul Incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Should I do the recap? Yeah. Okay.

I love this story. Me too. me too okay we are in the late 18th century which is a slight deviation from the book because the book takes place I think in like 1812 oh yeah like at the time it was like the book was released they're like right this is a modern book 1813 something when I came out is when it was published yeah the movie and this is like based on some choices from Joe Wright, the director, he set it back, I wanna say like maybe 20 or 30 years.

So it's like late 1700s, rural England. We meet Elizabeth Bennet, that's Keira Knightley of course, and her family, her elder sister Jane, that's Rosamund Pike, and her younger sister's kiddie, Carrie Mulligan, Lydia is Jenna Malone, and Mary, who I didn't write down that actor because I'm a rude bitch. Wow, I love how you're like, she's the only one who's not famous, justice for Mary. I don't know what her name is. Because I don't recognize her so then I didn't. Talula Riley is her name. Yes, thank you so much.

Okay. She was in Westworld. Okay, anyways. So they are all eavesdropping on their mother, Mrs. Bennet, played by Brenda Blethin, telling their father, Mr. Bennet, played by Donald Sutherland. Mr. Bennet.

She's the most British person that's ever lived. Yes. So she's telling her husband, her husband, that a rich young man, a Mr. Bingley, Mr. Bingley, has bought a nearby estate and also he's single. And they're all anticipating that one of the Bennett girls will marry mr. Bingley who will be coming to a ball that's being thrown I don't know the following evening or sometime soon I will say of all the men in the story if I had to get married to one of them

100% mr. Bingley. What is sweetie so sweet a pushover? Not thought maybe not the brightest crayon in the box, but what a sweetie. The way he looks at Jane, he's like, I love her so much. But then Mr. Darcy's like, don't marry her. And he's like, okay. You're like, okay, come on.

The part where he's like, I'm not a very good reader. I can read. And I'm not suggesting you can't read outside. He's so cute. I loved Mr. Bingley. Also, he kind of disappeared too. I don't know what happened to him. Oh my gosh, wait, this is what, sorry.

I'm just on his Wikipedia page, the actor Simon Woods. So he's a writer now, but he dated Rosamund Pike from 2000 to 2002, so not when this came out. Oh yes. And then now he's married to a man named Christopher Bailey, who is like a fashion CEO. And he has two daughters and now he writes plays. But I was like, that's so bizarre that like he dated Rosamund Pike and then they played lovers

like three years after they broke up. Love that. They're still cute together. I love Mr. Bingley. He's so I would I would have such a crush on Mr. Bingley. You're like, it's okay. I believe you can read. Right.

Okay. So at the ball, everyone is dancing. They're having a merry time, then this Mr. Bingley shows up along with his sister Caroline and his friend Mr. Darcy. That's Matthew McFadden. Is that how you say it? Fadden. McFadden.

Yeah. Who is very rich, even richer than Bingley, and who Elizabeth thinks looks miserable and unpleasant. And he does. And he does. He is thought to be too proud and prejudiced. He's so emo. He's like, everyone's like, hi, Mr. Darcy. He's like, no, no, no.

I'm like, dude, you're 28. Like, can you just say hello, dude, you're 28. Can you just say hello? All right, sheesh. But then I'm like, maybe he's got social anxiety. Maybe he's got something else. Well, he says he has social anxiety. Right, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, obviously not a discussion back then. But I feel like it's implied that it's like he has social anxiety and then deals with it by acting like he's too good for everyone and that's like his cope. Because there's that scene where it's like he basically tells Elizabeth like, I have a hard time talking to new people. And then she's kind of like, fuck you, leave me alone. And I'm like, well, given how he's treated her, I get it.

But also he is, yeah, he like totally copps to being socially anxious. For sure, yeah. But then I'm like, is he neurodivergent possibly? We don't know, they didn't understand these things back then. Right, yeah. Maybe some things go on.

As someone who, especially like earlier in my life, people would make snap judgments about me because I was like socially anxious or uncomfortable And I was like, you know, I'm actually nice So I just found all that relatable but then also like he insults her as he's proposing to her So I'm like actually maybe he's an asshole But also like many things and I feel like that's a lot of the take like we can't say obviously But like in this story, I think the fact that we can even have that conversation about a 200-year-old story is really cool because this is a story where

two things can be true all the time. Where it's like, yes, Mr. Darcy obviously has a level of social anxiety that he admits to in the book and the movie, but he He also acts behind people's backs and like is a total jerk in ways that is completely unrelated to his social anxiety and has everything to do with his like class bullshit. Right. So this is just like, I don't know. I just think it's really cool that it's like, we can have that discussion and

then also be like, but there were also moments in this story where he was straight up being an elitist jerk, right? Which he later admitted and was like, and now I have to make things right. Because growth. Oh, Mr. Darcy. Yes. Okay. So he shows up at the ball and he and Elizabeth share a look, but then Elizabeth overhears Mr. Darcy say about her that she's tolerable, but not pretty enough to tempt him, which then she uses as ammunition and a little like mic drop comment to him later

on. This is the beginning of the like, will they, won't they romantic tension between them. I love that shot where like after Lizzie, which is this is like, most of her mic drop moments, not all but like a lot of them are added in for the movie. And so she kind of mic drops him, she repeats back the thing that she overheard him saying about her. And then there's like this long shot of her walking away and you almost like, I just almost wanted like a, a music cue there of like, ah, man, re woman.

Like she's like strutting away. Like there's music playing, but it's like, it's still a fucking harpist chord. Right. Right. I did find those moments very cathartic. They're fun. Yeah. And I feel like it didn't like in the way that some when some older stories have like those like modern flourishes added they really

stick out because you're like this doesn't feel consistent but like with with Lizzie that's so who she is in the book that like adding those moments feels very consistent with who she is. Right yes okay so then meanwhile Elizabeth's sister Jane and Mr. Bingley seem to be taking a liking to each other. Then Jane is invited to dine at Mr. Bingley's estate where she has to stay for a few days after developing a cold on the way there. Which Mrs. Bennet basically orchestrates.

I was like, that's evil genius. She's like, no, you have to ride a horse so you get sick, so you fall in love. You're like, mom, that's evil. Which Mr. Bennet, he's like, your skills for matchmaking are a cult. Mrs. Bennet, I mean, there's a lot to be said about her. I know we'll get to it.

But there are very few moments in the story where you get to be like, all right, I guess she pulled that one off. And like, that was one of the few moments where it's unconventional what she does, but does it not work out for the best? You know? And then she's like, no one dies of a cold. It's fine. Like, Jesus. Right, right. So Elizabeth also goes to the estate to look after Jane while she's ill. And there she and Mr. Darcy interact. They are mostly nagging each other and they seem to hate each other, but also they seem to secretly love each other.

Maybe Mr. Darcy keeps smirking and you're just like, he just keeps looking at her like, hee hee, hee hee. I'm like, do you know you love her yet? Do you? He does, he does, he totally does. Cause like when she leaves, he like helps her into the carriage and like, there's, you know, just a spark when they touch hands, it's a whole thing.

So then Elizabeth and Jane return home and when they do, the Bennets get news of a cousin, Mr. Collins, coming to visit. He is to inherit their estate after Mr. Bennett dies since they only had daughters and women can't own property during this time or there are certain circumstances in which you can maybe, but it doesn't apply to them.

I don't really understand. I honestly, we didn't do, I mean, we already read a book, so don't yell at us. I appreciate how like Jane Austen, she doesn't like Russian novel style layout, like, and here are the rules for 40 pages of like what this actually meant. Because it seems like there are circumstances in which women can own property, but this

isn't one of them. For whatever reason, all you need to know is like, this is not one of like Mr. Collins is getting it for reasons. For reasons because Lady Catherine de Bourgh owns her estate, I think, but she's girlboss. But maybe that's just all the men died. Like it's possible. Yeah, she's rich. it could be because like all the guys who used to own it died like we just don't know simply don't know but either way the Bennett sisters are shit out of luck and they have to give it to their rude

cousin yes and mr. Collins intends on marrying one of the Bennett daughters because cousins be marrying each other in the olden days. Not in this case. Thank goodness. Elizabeth seems like the best option for him. Meanwhile, the military is stationed in town and a lieutenant or a lieutenant Wickham also takes a liking to Elizabeth. They have some fun banter about ribbons. We learned that Wickham has an unpleasant history with Mr. Darcy where Wickham tells Elizabeth that he and Mr. Darcy grew up together,

that Darcy denied an inheritance that was promised to him because Darcy was jealous that his father loved Wickham more than his own son. Two things, this is such a, I think like on Jane Austen's part, such a like insightful dynamic that I feel like you don't see very often of like, but something that like I've definitely experienced,

I feel like it's a pretty common experience of like being so taken in by a very charismatic person who's talking shit that it isn't until you are forced to take a step out of their charisma to be like, wait a second, this person's full of shit. And Wickham is such a classic example of that. Also, my dad, when we saw that movie, I got mad at him in the theater because he made fun of that ribbon scene in the theater and I got really embarrassed because he was joking

about how they were like, there's that shot where Kira Knightley is peeking from behind the ribbons and he's like, oh, come hither, but don't, but come hither, but don't. And I was like, dad, stop. Mike, don't make fun of the ribbon scene. I know, you're embarrassing me. Karen Knightley's awesome. Okay, so Wickham tells Elizabeth this.

So now Elizabeth thinks that Mr. Darcy is even more awful than she thought he was before. Then the Bennet ladies go to another ball at Mr. Bingley's estate where Elizabeth hopes to see Mr. Wickham, but he is nowhere to be found. Who is there is the dreadful Mr. Collins, who wants to dance with Elizabeth. And so does Mr. Darcy. So they dance and she confronts him about being awful and he's like you don't even know me. I love them. A short time later

Mr. Collins proposes to Elizabeth which she forcefully declines and this is the scene where her mother is like, I'll never talk to you again if you don't accept his proposal. And her father is like, I'll never talk to you again if you do. Another great across the board Lizzie scene where, and I feel like this, this is like a feminist hero moment that's built into the book where, you know, like there's this dynamic at this time where sometimes you would get denied once and it just meant, oh, I have to try harder. I have to keep pushing, pushing, pushing.

No means yes, but also this is a game, this is a dance. And Lizzie in the book, and then also, I thought Kierri Knightley's so good in that scene. She's like, I'm not fucking around. No, I don't wanna marry you. I would be miserable. You would be miserable. I'm not fucking around. Like, no, I don't want to marry you. I would be miserable. You would be miserable. Like, I'm not doing it.

And don't tell me that no means yes. And don't not take me seriously. I just, I love that scene. There are some things that I'm realizing upon like reading the book that like, and I mean, who knows when the mentality started of, I think no actually means yes. And if you say no, you're just being coy and flirty

and playing hard to get. But I was surprised that something that I perceive as a modern bit of misogyny is not just a modern thing. And it was happening over 200 years ago. Right, right. And like Lizzie, and it's like, I have to keep reminding myself as I'm like listening to the book of like,

that's an impressive thing to do right now. And the fact that Lizzie was doing it in 1812, when it was like, I mean, just like the decision is like 50 times as big and she still stands her ground and is like, no, I said I don't want to marry you. I don't want to marry you. Right. And then she has to do that a second time. Mr. Darcy. Oh, God, I just love Lizzie so much. I love her. She's an icon. That scene in the rain, we'll get there, but that scene in the rain. Oh my god.

The music. That scene is the, that's what stuck with me the first time I saw the movie, was the first rejection scene is so good. Yeah, I love it. So Mr. Bingley and Mr. Darcy then leave, I think Mr. Bingley's estate without Mr. Bingley proposing to Jane,

which comes as a surprise to everyone. And Elizabeth thinks that Mr. Bingley's sister, Caroline, is trying to persuade him to not marry her and to, I think, marry Mr. Darcy's sister instead. Is that the thing? Yeah, yeah, like this whole, like the Bing marry Mr. Darcy's sister instead. Is that the thing? Yeah, yeah, like this whole, like the Bingley-Darcy thing, it seems like, oh, we're gonna marry each other's sisters is this quote unquote smartest thing to do

to keep rich people with rich people. Because Miss Bingley is, you know, I mean, this feels like an aggressive statement, but she's throwing herself at Mr. Darcy. And clearly, I mean, at the beginning of the movie and the book, you're like, well, they kind of deserve each other. They're both fucking miserable people

who have all these like rude, evil class problems. All these prides and prejudices. I was gonna, yeah, like they have all these, I'm like, you know what, fine, get married, be miserable and rich, see if I care. But then Mr. Darcy grows. And then the book, Miss Bingley, it's like implied in the space of two sentences,

eventually grows a little bit at the end. I forgot about that part too. Anyways. Yeah, they're like, and eventually she kind of grew up and that was nice. We're like, all right. Good for her. So Elizabeth's friend, Charlotte,

who we've seen in the movie before, but she is just now showing up in my recap. Love her. Charlotte ends up marrying Mr. Collins and Elizabeth goes to visit them where Elizabeth meets Lady Catherine de Bourgh, AKA Dame Judi Dench. Oh, and she is making a meal of her three scenes.

So the director, Joe Wright, convinced Judi Dench to play this character by writing her a letter that said, quote, I love it when you play a bitch. Please come and be a bitch for me. End of letter. And Judi Dench was like for me. End of letter. And Judy Dench was like, sold. I'm there. I love that.

That makes me so happy. Oh, I'm smiling. I'm smiling. That rocks. So Elizabeth meets Lady Catherine de Bourgh, as well as her daughter and her nephew, who is, guess who? Mr. Darcy. Oh, and we get to know, guess who, Mr. Darcy.

And we get to know Lady Catherine a little bit. She is very emphasis on the prejudice part of Pride and Prejudice. Because she's extremely rich and elitist and classist. Yeah, they wanted her to play a bitch, Caitlin. She did. And she did it. So then Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth have a few awkward encounters.

Again, it's clear that he loves her and he seems to want to tell her something or maybe ask her something. But then she finds out that he quote unquote saved his friend, Mr. Bingley, from getting married to the wrong person because she came from an unsuitable family and he is talking about Mr. Bingley not proposing to Jane

and the Bennet family being unsuitable. So now Elizabeth hates Mr. Darcy even more. But then Darcy professes his love for Elizabeth despite his better judgment, despite his family's expectations. In the rain! In the rain. In the rain, Caitlin his family's expectations. In the rain! In the rain. In the rain, Caitlin, you forgot to say in the rain.

It's happening in the rain. It's a big deal. And it's happening despite his family's expectations, despite the inferiority of her birth, despite his rank and circumstance, he asks her to marry him. And she's like, what the hell? What about how you separated my sister

from the man she loves? What about how you think I'm gross and poor and that my family is rude and improper? What about how you ruined Mr. Wickham's life? Lizzie! And he's like, well, yes. I love Lizzie. And he's like, well, yes, some of that is true,

except some of it isn't and you don't know what you're talking about bye and then he leaves he literally is like facebook 2008 it's complicated like he's it's uh Lizzie is doing things that I can't do in relationships right now like she is just that scene is so satisfying like and it's so well acted between both of them because you can you can see Mr. Darcy going with his pride and pride I mean he goes invulnerable to begin with but then when he's shot down like McFadden I mean he's killing it like he's so he's like surprised and then he's like so hurt because he really loves her. But she's right.

And like, how dare he come at her like, hey, I've, you know, against all odds, I wanna marry you. And she's like, well, fuck you. Like, I'm awesome. Like I just, I love her. She's great. That scene fucked me up. Oh my God. I'm awesome. Like I just I love her. She's great that scene Fucked me up. Oh my god And the fact that like I feel like that's just Joe right magic where he's like and we're gonna just gonna put it in the rain

Just for fun because I don't I mean, I don't remember if that I think that scene was inside. Yeah Yeah, you're like her Oh put it in the fucking rain and then at the end of that scene you're like are they gonna kiss? Right they like kind of move they like move toward each other as if to be like well I know we just screamed at each other but should we kiss? But then they don't. They don't no and they I mean they really make you wait for the kiss the way that this movie ends is not how the book ends right the way this movie ends you know this the book ends, but the way that this movie ends, you know, this movie came out almost 17 years ago and I think about it, Mrs. Darcy.

Anyways, sorry, continue. So he leaves after getting his proposal rejected and shortly thereafter, he gives Elizabeth a letter in which Darcy explains that Wickham is actually a degenerate gambler and Darcy only did what he did with Bingley and Jane because he thought he was looking out for a friend because he perceived Jane to be indifferent toward Bingley because no one understands who anyone actually is because people just make snap judgments in this movie, in this book.

I know. And he was so like, and again, you can like see it on his face when Elizabeth's like, she's shy. And then it cuts back to Darcy and he's like, oh. Cause you can see him register like, oh, I'm shy. Oh, I should have seen this. I should have understood.

Oh, I intimately understand what she was doing, and yet I judged her anyways. Like, ugh, it's a great story. Yeah. OK, so now Elizabeth has all these second thoughts. Maybe Darcy is not that bad of a guy after all. And then her sister Jane comes back home from London. Her sister Lydia goes to Brighton with

the Forster family who I guess are people that were supposed to know who they are. I don't think we need to. I think that this movie just like they're like she's away. Yeah. Yeah. She's away. So then Elizabeth goes with her aunt and uncle to Darcy's estate because it's open to visitors which is wild to me. I know. It's like rich people houses are literally just museums? Right? But I guess that's true of some places still, but I feel like the rich people don't actually live there anymore.

Like they wouldn't just be like, oh, whoops, I didn't realize you were hanging today. They must be so rich in their house, so big that they can just have an entirely separate part of their house where they actually live in. And then another part where it's like, yeah, you can come and look at my fancy couch and statues. Fine. That was one of my favorite shots in the whole movie though. When Elizabeth, I mean, you're about to hit it in the recap where she's like walking around,

walking around. And then it turns out Darcy is there, and then there's like this Hitchcock zoom on her, where she's like, oh, and it like zooms in on her, and then she runs away, and ugh. I just love how many different sides of Lizzie's personality you see, because I feel like so often

with these like feminist hero characters, which Lizzie Bennet is like in the fucking Mount Rush more of feminist hero characters, but you also get to see these like moments where she's like vulnerable and she's kind of like that whole sequence in the book and then also I feel like it kind of telegraphs clearly in the movie like Yes, she's like gonna stick to her guns no matter what. Her values are very clear and very strong. But also, she's like, I don't know, I like that she still has an imagination and is like, but what if? What would it be like if I lived here? And entertains the thought and you

get that intimate moment of someone alone that I feel like with most like feminist characters and most heroes, you only see the side of them that is like very like, these are my values. And I don't need no love and support in my life. Right, right. And it's like, I'm literally a superhero. And it's like, Lizzie Bennet could be by herself and sustain and be fine, and we know that, but it's also, I don't know, just like it's so cool and refreshing to see, I mean, fucking

200 year old story, but like to see her have those like moments alone of like, well, what would it be like? It's not like she's saying, I'm going to do this, but just to see her kind of like process and consider what that life would be like for her. And then to be taken off guard by him and then be like, and like just have a moment of like, oh shit, I'm sorry, I didn't,

I thought your house was a museum. And so like, I love that scene where she's, she is just like fully panicking and is like, I just didn't think you would be at your house. And he's like, well, well, I live here. I just love it. I love them. That's a great scene. They're both so awkward. Okay. So yeah, we're about to get there where Elizabeth goes to Darcy's estate and Darcy doesn't appear to be there or she doesn't think he's there, but he's returned a day early from where he was

and she runs into him and it's really awkward, but they seem to be getting along a little bit better than usual, or at least they're just like, propriety is getting the better of them. He's so happy to see her. Yes. He's so happy to see her.

He's like, wait a second, you're at my freaking house? And he's being like, so, are you staying nearby? And she's like, yes, I'm at this exact tavern or whatever. And he's like, cool, cool, cool, cool. Good to know. And then he does show up there later. But just to invite Elizabeth and her aunt and uncle to dinner the next day. I didn't feel like of, I mean mean there are things to talk about with a relationship, but I didn't ever feel like he was like stalkery or creepy. I feel like he was very respectful and when she set boundaries, he would like really take the note to the point where it's like at the end he's like, if you say no, I'll walk away

right now. You'll never see me again yeah no worries like of all the men in the story I feel like Darcy has the best understanding of boundaries because Collins is like yeah sure no right of course you want to marry me yeah no means yes actually yeah right and Darcy's like he's like almost extreme. He's like, I can't be your friend. There's no in between. You will never see me again. It'll be like I died, you know.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay, so he introduces Elizabeth to his sister Georgiana, but then Elizabeth receives a letter from Jane saying that their sister Lydia has run off with Mr. Wickham, that son of a gun. Lydia! Yeah.

Lydia drives me up a wall, but also she's young. I feel, okay, this is something that every time there is like a parenting issue brought up with the Bennetts,. I don't mean to... It's hard. I mean, and it speaks to the strength of the story that this is hard because everyone in this story is very complicated and has multiple things going on. But I do feel like Mrs. Bennet is made to look so silly by the story and she is not kind to her children. I don't mean to

say that she's a perfect mother in disguise, like she's not. But I feel like a lot of where her anxiety comes from or where some of her anxiety comes from is anytime people talk about like, oh, the Bennet sisters are being reared so poorly, the onus is put very much on her versus Mr. Bennett. And so like when Lydia runs off, I feel like Mrs. Bennett always has an outsized reaction to when one of the daughters is being harshly judged. But I do feel like that's also connected to,

whenever you hear like one of the richer characters, especially like Lady Catherine is the person who does that the most, in that really aggressive dinner conversation, Mr. Bennet doesn't even come up in those conversations. It's like, oh, your mother fucked up. Like your mother failed. And like that's where it's not like,

it's not conceivable in this class at this time that it's like, if you have five daughters, they're all going to be very different. Which clearly Jane Austen knows because she had wrote five daughters and she wrote them to all have very different personalities. But like in the eyes of this class and this story, it's like, oh, if any daughter does anything wrong, it's like a failure of the mother. And so it's like Mrs. Bennett very much

has a victim complex and I feel like she doesn't take accountability for when she does fuck up but also I was trying to like stay cognizant of the fact that like Mr. Bennett is so dismissive of stuff in a lot of cases but it's also like because he doesn't carry the blame for most of it like his wife does right yeah I have complicated feelings about Mrs. Bennett in particular well I guess both parents but like sure she is such a product of her environment. Yeah totally. And again which is a like such a rigid patriarchal structure and which gets commented on

here and there in the movie like there's a scene where she's you know talking about one of I forget which one but it's like one of the daughters getting married and Elizabeth is like is that all you think about or is that all you talk about like us getting married and she's like well when you have five daughters like come back to me and then you'll understand like you'll you'll understand because of the circumstances of like back in this time you'll understand because of the circumstances of like back in this time, women needed like literally needed a marriage in most cases to secure any stability in their life financially or else because again, women were considered property. They couldn't own anything. Like they had no opportunities for making their own way in the world because of

how few rights women had back then. had no opportunities for making their own way in the world because of how few rights women had back then. So that's like where her concern comes from. But then it's also like at the expense of her daughter's personalities and desires and wants. And so it's like, yeah, it's so, like the story is so good. It's so complicated because you can like put yourself in her head and be like, I understand why she's doing what she's doing

but like, obviously this is not the way to do it. But then also, I don't think that she, I have like more issues with Mr. Bennet than I was expecting to because I also don't think that like Mr. Bennet is so disinterested in how his wife is processing things where he kind of like, he loves her, but he like tolerates her like a joke.

Like he's like, oh, you do this, this is you. And it's like, but do you ever think of like, like you were saying, she's such a product of her environment. And I feel like she, like if they were working more as a team, then she may not be so inclined to be pushy with her kids, because it's like, well, if they were working as a team, then, you know, like, unfortunately, because of the gender dynamics of this time, Mr. Bennet could act in his daughter's best interest,

and like, they just act, it's a rough marriage. I mean, I just get the feeling that that's a rough marriage. And it's like, it's not loveless. Marriage is complicated. Relationships are complicated. Like, it's not like, I do believe that they love each other. They care about each other. But their dynamic is like not beneficial

to their kids at all. And I think that Mr. Bennett is like, I feel like negligent is maybe an overstatement, but he's just checked out. He's dismissive of a lot. He's checked out. Yeah, he's like, oh, I'm reading, so I can't think about anyone's feelings.

And it's like, well, that puts a lot on your wife. And also that means that that not only puts a lot on your wife, it also know because of how the society is structured if things don't work out He's not gonna bear the brunt of the criticism like she will and so I feel like it's inconsiderate of him to his spouse To be so checked out because it's like she's gonna have to take the shit and then he's also like oh You're so silly. You're so like and she is but like I feel like she's like It's a combination but like I feel like part of the reason why she acts so silly

Quote unquote is because she's acting alone like she's acting basically like a single parent to help her kids out and like is coming from this place of anxiety in partially a selfish way for sure of like what's gonna happen to our family if this fucking random guy who is obsessed with Judi Dench can just take our property at any time. And I feel like that is like referenced in the movie and the book, but like it's implied

that Collins can just take the house whenever he wants. And so I understand through the time why Mrs. Bennett would be like, we have to secure something better than Mr. Collins in this family at some point. Otherwise Mr. Collins can just like displace us from our home and we would be without a home, which Mr. Bennett seems, I would say weirdly indifferent about. Not. Yeah. I was like, well, you would also be displaced. Well, no, cause he would be dead.

Oh, it's my understanding and again, I don't understand all of the nuances of this era in terms of like who inherits what and when and who can't and cannot own property blah blah blah. Sure. But I think the movie pretty clearly lays out that when Mr. Bennet dies, that's when Mr. Collins will inherit. Okay, okay. So they have to secure marriages for the daughters prior to Mr. Bennett dying. Wait, I didn't even get because they keep referencing. Oh my god. Okay, so that makes him even worse. Like, I don't know. I am not like I don't think either of them are amazing parents, but I do think that Mr. Bennett is worse. Because I'm like, if I'm Mr. Bennett and I have five children and a spouse

who by the rules of the time will be displaced if I die, before I die, I'm gonna wanna make sure they're good. Right, I know. But he's the opposite. And so that's part of the reason why why I know we're still in the recap But also we're kind of doing we're kind of doing the whole episode right now Yeah, but like that's part of the reason why I got kind of annoyed that the movie and this felt kind of studio notes II and it kind of felt like

My guess is like well Donald Sutherland took the role. Don't make him look mean. And the reason I guess that is because Donald Sutherland was in a stage adaptation of Lolita in which he played Humbert Humbert. And he demanded that Humbert Humbert be more sympathetic because he didn't want to appear unsympathetic in public. So this is a thing for like Donald Sutherland specifically, where he will accept a role of a, I mean, obviously like Mr. Bennett isn't Humbert Humbert, but like not the most sympathetic character in the world. And then demand that the character be retrofitted to be more sympathetic. So I just like, I know that this

is a thing with Donald Sutherland, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was a studio notes thing. But I feel like it's actually like pretty fucking selfish of Mr. Bennett to be so checked out. But then to get that like little flourish of like, and I love my daughters so much, like at the end, it's like, well, that's interesting because two months ago, you were willing to have your entire family be possibly displaced if one fucking random guy gets in a bad mood one day and you're not accountable for that. Like fuck you. Sorry, I'm anti Mr. Bennett. My thought is, and I completely agree with you, and we are able to see these things about him

and his choices and behavior and identify them as awful. However, I think that this type of thing was so normalized in this era that no one even batted an eyelash about it. Everyone's just like, well, yeah, this is a woman's role in society to be a mother and to be the primary caregiver for her children, especially in terms of emotional support and worrying about their future and teaching daughters how to be quote unquote proper women and how to find husbands. That's what women and mothers

do and because of rigid gender roles men weren't expected to have to deal with anything like that. Yeah. And then just the way society was structured, the way that the patriarchy was such a crushing presence, no one thought to criticize that or question it or think it was weird or to expect anything else. Well, not no one, but like most people, I would say, it was just like such the norm. So again, like we're looking at this stuff with our like 22s.

And this is not in defense of Mr. Bennett or anything like that, but I think the movie portrays this way because that was realistic for the time. And that was just the norm and expectation of the time. I totally agree with you. No, I'm so glad. God, I love Pride and Prejudice. I'm so happy we're having these discussions because I totally agree with you.

And then I feel like it does in a way that Jane Austen seemed uniquely aware of, in a way that possibly Joe Wright and Deborah Mogok, or possibly Studio Notes, you don't know, whatever, Donald Sutherland's agents, possibly. But in a way that even in 2005 wasn't totally clear, where they turn up the sympathy knob for Mr. Bennet in a way that, I mean, at least for me, as a 12-year-old viewer, I was like, oh,

dads are like, and this is something that we talk about on the show all the time. And it's complicated by the fact that it's such an old story, but like the dads are more sympathetic than moms trope that comes up all the time, you know, without any context of like, why a father's role may be considered considerably easier and less complicated than a mother's role because of the systemic forces being pushed against a mother. I feel like this, it almost felt like Jane Austen for me, in the way that the final draft of the movie, however that happened, I felt like Jane Austen had it more right than the movie. And in a way that, I think the movie mostly

gets everything and kind of trims the fat and really just makes it a good two hour experience, right? And this movie didn't feel too long, weirdly. I know. It was like, oh, two hours and that was all I needed. Unlike every movie in theaters right now, because they're all two and a half hours and I'm just sitting there being like,

you could have cut this, you could have cut that, why is this shot so long? But like, I have no patience these days. This movie is like kind of perfect. But like one of the ways that I didn't, the addition of the sympathetic dad, I felt like Jane Austen was more on the nose where she didn't offer that kind of absolution to either parent. But what I thought was interesting was like in the movie, there is like this element of Lizzie specifically.

And this also feels like just because we're doing an Emma episode next, and I've been listening to the Emma audio book and Emma's my favorite Jane Austen novel. Um, and it's also clueless. So like, I'll have to say it like Jane Austen heroines will often, you know, take on other people's problems to avoid dealing with their own, a problem that, you know, persists for people to this day. But I did think it was like a recognizable thing that like in the movie and in the book, Elizabeth is very often taking on the problems of her relatives for very urgent reasons, but also to avoid confronting her own feelings.

She's like, well, I'm busy because Jane and Bingley are like, I'm busy because my mom is embarrassing us, or I'm busy because my dad is completely checked out. And we do at least like, you do get to see that scene where Lizzie goes to her dad and it's like, are you looking out for Lydia at all? Like, and I think that like, there's us five years ago, maybe wouldn't have understood this completely. But like, you know, she goes to her dad and she's like, Lydia is like ruining the reputation of the family by just like kind of running wild, which isn't inherently sexist statement. But in the context of the time, Lizzie is trying to look out for Lydia and her sisters

and the entire family and is like, I felt like at her core, like criticizing her father for being like, why are you doing nothing? Why are you so indifferent every day of your life? Right. And it literally is just because it's like you're saying, like, he's like, well, when I die, who gives a shit? And it's like, well, okay. So you just like keep telegraphing to the whole family that you

don't give a shit about them because your whole family is women and because of the time and place that you live, they will be endangered and displaced if you spend this time doing nothing. And I feel like that's what Lizzie is trying to say. And she can't quite get through to him. And it's like so but but like yeah I don't know whatever she's parenting her parents and then which we all end up doing at some point as adults I know but Lizzie's 20 I'm like oh my

god can she like live for two seconds she's 20 years old she's middle-aged by 18th or 19th century standards. She's 45 basically. Okay, sorry, we haven't finished the recap, but I feel like we've had a lot of parent discussions, so that's good. That's true, yes indeed. So Elizabeth receives the letter from Jane saying that their sister has run off with Mr. Wickham,

Elizabeth is devastated, Elizabeth returns home where her mother is crying about their family being ruined because a young woman running away with a man that she's not married to is very improper and could ruin the reputation of the entire family. But then the family gets news that Lydia has been found and that she and Mr. Wickham are married and it seems that their uncle found them and squared everything away. But Elizabeth learns that it was actually Mr. Darcy

who paid for the wedding and fixed the whole situation. And then he goes, I hope you know it was all for you. It was all for you. And you're like, ah! And then I wrote down in my notes that Mr. Darcy's love language is acts of service. It literally, I mean, which is, I mean, honestly, I wouldn't even hand it to him on that one because every rich guy's love language is acts of service. That's the least effort love language.

Right. Give me a fucking break. Sorry. No, it's true. It's like, okay, yeah. Rich guys are awesome. Then the family learns that Mr. Bingley is returning to town. He and Darcy pay a visit to the Bennets.

Bingley is clearly working up the nerve to propose to Jane, but he can't go through with it and then he leaves. But then he comes back and finally follows through on the proposal. Jane says, she goes, yes, yes, a thousand times a thousand times a thousand. Sorry. And she's so happy. And this is yet another thing that Darcy seems to have fixed, which he fucked up before and which Elizabeth confronted him about.

Then lady Catherine de Bourgh pays Elizabeth a visit. She seems to think that Elizabeth and Darcy are engaged, and she will not hear of it because she thinks that Elizabeth sucks and is undeserving of Darcy. And Elizabeth is like, actually, you're the one who sucks. Now get out. Woohoo! Very baller move. Love it.

It's very exciting. Then Darcy shows up and he's like you have bewitched me body and soul And I still love you. Is there any chance that you like me? You're sorry. You're just like really doing a great job His I mean his delivery you have bewitched me body and soul and you're like You're like, oh my God, give me a, just give me one kiss. See what happens if you give me just one.

So he's like, I understand if you still hate me, but is there any chance that now you might like me? And she's like, actually, yes, I love you. Let's nuzzle each other. They do nosies. They do nosies. They do nosies in a perfectly choreographed shot in the sunlight. And you're just like, I am gonna die.

It's so sweet. And it's so rare that an enemies to lovers story feels, I feel like with any enemies to lovers story, there you know, with any enemy is a lover story, there's always going to be a few hitches. Sure. But this is in the upper percentile is like as close to earned as you can get because it's like, it's time, it's growth. I still think that like Darcy doesn't fully deserve her.

I like to think that he spends the rest of his life working towards deserving her more. Yes. But which I think it ends on a note that that seems very likely. Yeah. Oh, I'm gonna cry. I just. Okay, so they're nuzzling each other and then they get their blessing to marry each other from Mr. Bennet.

And then Elizabeth and Darcy get married off screen, and the movie ends with them enjoying a romantic evening together and deciding which pet names they should have. And then he gives her a little kiss. They love little tiny face kisses. Mrs. Darcy. It's like Mrs. Darcy. Mrs. Darcy.

It's just, oh my God. That, I mean, 12 years old back braids, never been kissed in my life. I was like, I'm looking forward to this. And guess what? It doesn't happen. It didn't happen. Yeah, well.

No. That's life. ["The First Night I Came Over Here"] Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all-new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend.

And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Mm, pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived,

investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry. We'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football,

Anti-Racism Spin Class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the canceled to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. podcasts or wherever you with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless, it's me on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars, in just five hours. Okay, we're rolling. One, two, three, four. ["Bars of Daybreak"]

I'm Jamie Petrus, music and culture writer. For the past five years, I've been talking to the band's three surviving members. They're out of prison now and in their 70s. Their past behind them. But they also have some unfinished business. The end of their break, eyes of love, was supposed to have been followed up by another app.

It's a story about the liberating power of music, the American justice system, and ultimately, second chances. Listen to Soul Incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. OK, so what have we not already covered? Oh, boy, I feel like we kind of covered the parents at this point. Yeah.

And we've talked a lot about Lizzie and Darcy. But I guess let's put a bow on Lizzie and Darcy. Is there other stuff that you wanted to talk about with Lizzie and Darcy? I just felt like we're so accustomed to seeing stories where men never apologize, never acknowledge that they were wrong to do something. And this dynamic, because of who Lizzie is, demands she will not engage with him until he acknowledges, I disrespected you,

I disrespected your family, and I genuinely was like, I have to take notes from her. Like she disconnects from him for long periods of time because she's like, well, you know, like it's clear that she, there's something going on there, but she's just like, but if you're not being respectful to the most important people in my life, my sister, specifically her relationship with Jane and like judging

my family and being a classist asshole, then it's like, it doesn't matter if there's like an attraction between us, it's never gonna happen. Like there are just like, her boundaries are so firm with the people that she loves. And I just, I just love that. Like I just, that's amazing in any era. And I love that Darcy does, her being so firm in who she is, in some ways kind of pushes him to have to grow because he's like, oh, well, I really want to be in this woman's life, but she's not going to interact with me unless I look at the darkest parts of myself basically.

And like, but then he does. I mean, and it's like, he's not a hundred percent by the end of the story, but I just feel like that's a rare dynamic to see portrayed in any story of like, a woman really holding her own in what her values are and a man, and this is, you know, obviously this is a very heterosexual story and heterosexual time in terms of popular storytelling.

But like he is forced to look at himself and improve and do better and like, and then actually like is on the way to that by the end of the story. Like I just, it's, yeah, it's shocking for 2022. I know, most men won't do that. You know? Anyways, this is another thing I have complicated feelings about because on one hand, I mean, I love Elizabeth Bennett. She's smart. She's funny. She's got a quick wit. She isn't afraid to speak her mind in a time period and in a culture where

these things were not really valued of women. It's dangerous to speak your mind in this time if you're, you could be fucked for life. Right. And despite those things, like she still has strong convictions and strong opinions and she voices them and she's so good at comebacks to a point where I'm like, I gotta take notes about that because her comeback game is amazing. She's like not really sold on the idea of not necessarily romantic love because she says at one point like only the deepest strongest love would drive me to matrimony and and therefore I think I'll end up an old maid because men are humorless poppycocks slash men are either

eaten up with arrogance or stupidity if they are amiable they are so easily led they have no minds of their own whatsoever. So she does not have a very high opinion of men in general. Mr. Darcy comes along, he seems like just like all the other boys, like too proud and you know, he's too prejudiced. He seems miserable. She notices it right away, or at least that's her perception of him. That's her first impression. Then there's a scene where he talks about how

he hardly knows any accomplished women because by his standards, a woman has to have a thorough knowledge of music and drawing and dancing and languages and she has to improve her mind by extensive reading, which Elizabeth does do. She loves books and I wonder if Jane Austen was kind of the first sort of perpetrators of the trope. Girl is not like the other girls because she likes books. Anyway, so he's like kind of carrying on about, you know, I would only consider a woman

who has all these qualities and she's like, how do on about, you know, I would only consider a woman who has all these qualities. And she's like, how do you even know any women like that? And he's like, okay, I guess you hate women. And then she's like, no, you just have ridiculously high standards, which she doesn't actually really say. But I feel like that's what's implied in that conversation. So, like, we learn about his just kind of, I guess prejudice against women, his like standards that are too high. But meanwhile, he's like falling in love with her.

So, you know, he's confused. But also I feel like he's doing the thing that like, I mean, and again, it's like, I feel like it's rewarded in the context that he's doing it where it's like, oh, his standards are very high, but he's doing the thing that people do of all genders where they set standards so high that they're unattainable and they never need to emotionally engage with someone

because they're like, well, no one's gonna be good enough for me, so I guess I'm just gonna be alone forever. And it's like, well, no, you're actually just scared. Wow. It's true. He's scared, he's scared, but it's like because of his class and his gender,

he's rewarded as like, oh, you're being, but if you put that attitude into so many other people of that era, it would be received so differently. I don't know. Right, yes. So there's that conversation. And then after she calls him out several times for being unpleasant and too proud and all of this and too prejudiced, he seems to start to see the error

of his ways and she is maybe not intentionally on her part but he does seem to be displaying growth and he's doing some self-reflecting and being like, wow, maybe. And it's like active, it's not accidental. But then the midpoint rolls around of the movie where he proposes and in his proposal, he's like, wow, everything's telling me

that I shouldn't be in love with you because I am so proud and prejudiced, but I love you anyway. And she's like, okay, well, that was the worst proposal I've ever heard. You were so mean to me and my family just then. And you also ruined my sister's life and you're mean. And he's like, well, I guess I have more growing to do. So then he goes and grows some more.

I just, I really like, I love it. I love it. Elizabeth is amazing. Yes, what I admire about this is her behavior. I'm still not very sold on like, and I don't think you are either, but like Darcy being completely deserving of kind of the redemption that he gets in Elizabeth's

eyes. No, I agree. But also like a redemption by like whatever like 1800s or late 1700s standards probably didn't have to be that significant because the bar for men's behavior was low. And I also think it's like a lesson in, I don't know, I mean, I felt like, let me know how you feel about this. Like I felt like, I don't even think Elizabeth was saying at the end of the story, like, I think Darcy is exactly where he needs to be.

He's a fully formed person. I think that her conditions for being and to marry him was like that she believed that he could get there and was like, like he had displayed that like, I am willing to do the work and the self introspection and like questioning my prides and prejudices to to be a better person, which I think is like, you know, and obviously this isn't like a blanket statement, but in a serious relationship, I think that that's the thing is like, very often it's like, you know,

if you're waiting for someone to arrive at you fully formed, you could be waiting for a very long time and that's fine. But I think for a lot of people, it is often enough for it to be like, okay, no, you're not fully formed, but you know that and you're willing to continue working. And it's not like my burden to get you to where you need to be. You're a work in progress and you're getting to where you need to. And it seems like that's sort of where they both are. And like part of the reason why they connect is because like, and I feel like it's made more explicit in the movie

in that scene that makes me cry, even though I have issues with Mr. Bennet. But the way that Lizzie talks in that scene where she's just like, we're so similar. Which I feel like is her way of acknowledging we're both works in progress. I do think that the way that they are similar, the context is different because Darcy's prides and prejudices are more impactful because of the time they're living in and less sympathetic than Lizzie's because

Lizzie's prides and prejudices are against the rich. So it's kind of easier to get on her side. Darcy's prides and prejudices are against the poor. So there are similar impulses, but they're weaponized very differently with very different results., I feel like maybe, you know, that's not fully examined, but I do believe that Lizzie thinks and I, and I want to believe it based on his behavior that it's like, he's not perfect, but he's demonstrated a lot of growth. And I think that he's willing to continue working to deserve being with me. And I think that that is like a very beautiful, empathetic thing. I don't know.

I agree. That's just how I feel today. Sure, right. Ask me again tomorrow. I'll be pissed. Elizabeth being prejudiced in a cool way where she's like, fuck the rich, eat the rich. Right, right.

I do find, and again, this might just be demonstrative of my lack of understanding of culture at the time. I'm not a history scholar, believe it or not, listeners of the Bechtel cast. Brave of you to admit. Thank you so much. So they're always talking about how poor they are, the Bennett family, but then they live in a huge mansion and have a bunch of servants. So that was a... So that's something that comes up a lot because I was also like, explain this to me.

Yeah, like I don't fully have an understanding of that. I do know that it's like, that also seemed to be based on my slight research because I didn't I mean and where I fully intend to do more Jane Austen research before Emma episode but I just did not have time before this episode. But my understanding just of a brief Jane Austen overview is that Jane Austen very much presented herself as like an underdog like I'm poor but, but like, and I feel like people still do this all the time today, they're like, I'm poor. And then you're like, you're like a really famous person's

daughter, like what are you talking about? You know, like they're like, I'm so relatable, like, and I'm thinking of five people, but I, you know, I respect women, so I'm not gonna say anything, but like, you know, my understanding is that the class difference that's being examined here that isn't fully made clear in either the book or the movie, partially because of where Jane Austen was coming from,

being like, I'm poor, which was her way of saying, I'm upper middle class and everyone else around me is fabulously wealthy. That is what it's saying. what there's a class difference, but it's like not because it's like in the whole book, you meet one working class character and it's Darcy's head servant and she all she can talk about is how much she loves Darcy. Like this is not a working class story at all. And I feel like the Bennetts you're totally like, I agree, like the Bennetts are presented as like,

we're so poor, but this is a story between like, the middle to upper middle class versus fucking Elon Musk. You know? Right. Yeah. Yeah, so the information I've gathered is that Darcy earns $10,000 a year, or 10,000 pounds, sorry earns $10,000 a year,

or 10,000 pounds, sorry, 10,000 pounds a year, which is the equivalent of somewhere between. A million billion dollars. Well, it's between 600 and 700,000 pounds per year, which is a significant income. That's a lot of money. For sure, but I don't think they're like billionaire status or if anyone even was back then.

Yeah, actually fuck him. The Bennett family, according to my research, and maybe this was mentioned in the book, but I think they bring in an income of 2,000 pounds a year, which is slightly less than half of what Bingley brings in, which is 5,000 pounds a year. So yeah, based on that, they seem middle class, I would say, the Bennets.

Which, like, fine. I, yeah, I feel like that's almost like a Jane Austen issue too, because, like. But then, but again, according to my research, Jane Austen was fairly poor her entire life and didn't become famous until after her death, which was at like age 41 or something like that. She died quite young and wasn't famous or wealthy.

And I think was like, I think again, according to some of the resources I consulted was living below the poverty line her entire life. I totally, I mean, I didn't do the Jane Austen life prep. So I totally, yeah, you're right. Thank you so much. I am a scholar after all, wow. That's so interesting,

because it's like most of her stories are so of the upper class. And it's like not even really a criticism of her, because it's also like, I mean, it's funny, we were talking about succession at the beginning of this episode, where forever. And there's a lot of criticism on it, and I still firmly believe there's not enough stories

about the working class, and particularly fun and engaging stories about the working class, where so often you get working class stories that are just trauma porn, and everyone's like, well class stories that are just trauma porn and everyone's like, well, we're bummed out. And it's like, well, yeah, no shit. Rich people are having all the fun in movies too. Fuck you.

Except for that scene in Titanic when the poor people are having fun dancing below deck and the rich people are having- And then they all die two days later. Then they're all like, we all, you can't have that scene without having to watch all of those characters individually drown. So like it cancels out.

Fair point, yeah. But all I have to say, like, Succession, that's a current show about like rich people fucking around and having complicated interpersonal relationships that Matthew McFadden is also in, that people across class lines really enjoy because that has been so much of how

the history of storytelling has been. It's like kings and queens and rich people. That's been so many of the famous story and that's something that I think is up for examination of why can't we have more working class heroes without it being tragedy porn. I think that's something that I hope is, there are stories where that's the case,

but it's still a lot of rich people. I just wish it was maybe made a little clearer in the book as well because they're always, because I do get how upper middle-class people are often saying I'm poor when they're around rich people all the time but it's also like you're an author or you're a filmmaker you can contextualize that and not just have the only working-class person in the entire movie talk about how much you love rich people. And I've never, I've never seen, oh, Caitlin, Downton Abbey.

Yes. But that, that's something that does that well, right? Like that, that is fairly well. It's, it's been a few years since I've seen it, but yeah, it basically pays equal attention and equal screen time and characterization and all of that stuff to the upper class, you know, aristocracy people and the working class servants who work for the rich people.

Hell yeah. So, yeah. Whereas in this movie and like, you know, this story is really only concerned about the lives and affairs of people of like, you know, these higher economic classes and anyone of a significantly lower class, like the servants who we see like working in the Bennett house, they're given no characterization. But like, who are they?

Who are they, yeah. I mean, they're basically viewed as like status and property, which is like, again, complicated when you consider the fact that like a lot of what the Bennetts are, the Bennetts sisters in particular are pushing up against is like, I don't wanna be viewed as property. But then there's also, you're in the middle class,

so you do view other people as property, but you resent being considered as property by people above you. But like, where's your empathy for the people below you? And I don't have, I've like read, I think like, how many Jane Austen, okay, wait, let me pull up. Okay, I've read one, two, three, four out of like seven Jane Austen novels. I don't really remember like if there is one particular Jane Austen book that tackles this particularly that's really interesting that she she would have had an intimate understanding of

the poorer classes, but I also think that there's something to be said for like in this time Especially because she had to write under pseudonyms. Right did stories about poor people sell in the 1800s? I don't know. Maybe not. Oliver Twist? Oliver Twist? He was famously poor. But that was written by a man. So you know it's like it's... We clearly don't have enough knowledge to make any definitive statement. I guess where the more effective class discussion comes in for this story is more effective class discussion comes in for this story is the recognition on Jane Austen's part that in this society women had so few options and so few rights and opportunities that one of the only ways that they could secure any hope for survival was to marry a man. And therefore the goal for many women becomes find the man with the highest income.

Because part of me is like, wow, this is a movie almost entirely about women talking about who should I marry? Who can I marry? Who was the richest guy? Did like so much of that. Where like just coming at it from like a very surface level, like Bechtel test point of view is like,

oh, that doesn't feel great. But considering the historical context and, you know, just the nuances of, well, yeah, but women were considered lesser than men and living in this very oppressive structure and had very few options and the most realistic one and the most feasible one for most women was to try to marry well so you can't fault them for that because that's literally just survival so yeah that's

that's sort of like that's something that I feel like is a growth moment in terms of how we have taken the approach to this show over the years. Like I feel like there was a time in the show where we'd be like, they're talking about marriage the whole time. But it's like in this time and in this story when they're talking about marriage, the subtext is they're talking about survival. And they're talking about like there are no, you know, like it's very, I don't know, I don't know why I'm just like 2017, like it's very 2017 to be like, well, why didn't they start a small business?

It's like, yeah, they should have become girl bosses. Right. business. It's like, yeah, they should have become girl bosses. Right, right. Like in extraordinary circumstances, like obviously, like there are always women in every time, Jane Austin included, who were able to have careers independently, but that came at such significant cost. It was not the norm. It's an unreasonable expectation for women of this time to not be thinking of marriage as inherently connected to survival, especially if your family is all women

and the one man in the family is passive and shitty. Like, I get it. So that comes through in like, yeah, a lot of Mrs. Bennet's behavior, right? And there's a scene with Lizzie's friend, Charlotte, where she comes to tell Lizzie that she's married Mr. Collins. Charlotte.

Because it offered her a secure future. And Lizzie's like, but he's ridiculous. And she's like, look, I'm 27 years old, which for the time was considered. She's 60 years old. Was considered like an old maid, basically. She's like, I have no money and no prospects. I'm a burden to my parents I'm frightened. So don't you dare judge me and it's like oh shit

Like I I see where you're coming from Charlotte such an effectively written scene That was like condensed for the movie, but I just thought it was so well done Yeah, yeah that whole I mean that whole friendship and I really, I think that that's like a cool, and this does come through clearly in the book as well, where that's like, I think that her storyline with Charlotte might be like one of the first prides and prejudices that Lizzie works through in the story where obviously everyone knows that Mr. Collins is not great. And Lizzie rejects him and it's amazing and it's very exciting.

And then when Charlotte contextualizes her situation where she's like, okay, you're 20 and you're from a richer family than I am. And because women were so, this is something we haven't really talked about yet, like women were so aggressively judged for how they looked. And beauty standards, I feel like it's kind of interesting because 2005 beauty standards are being pumped in, whereas like the beauty standards of the 1800s would have been different. I think that if this was a true period piece, the women in the story would look different. But all that to say, like, even in with the 2005 beauty standards put into this story, it's like, you are the beauty. So you are our ticket into financial

security. You are not quote unquote, the beauty in the traditional Western beauty standards sense. And therefore you will be neglected. And like, it's mentioned, I mean, it said, and this is like one of the places where you're like, fuck Mrs. Bennet, where Mrs. Bennet just like, mask off as like, I don't think she's hot, and so I'm not interested in talking about her. And Lizzie like never does that,

never judges anyone based on how they look, because she like, knows it's bullshit, because she's Lizzie never does that, never judges anyone based on how they look because she knows it's bullshit because she's Lizzie Bennet. And there's that scene at the beginning where Mrs. Bennet is criticizing how Charlotte looks. And this is clearly feedback that Charlotte has been getting for a long time. It's clearly feedback that Mary has been getting.

It's clearly feedback that Lady Catherine's daughter, whose name escapes me at this moment, has been getting. And it's like there are multiple, and I think that's like really strong writing on Jane Austen's part and ooh, screenwriter Deborah Mogoc's part. Mogoc, don't know, sorry. Mogoc could be anything. But I think that's really strong on their part that it's like, this is something that has been thrown in their face their entire lives and they've been made to feel small by it and it's clearly affected them.

And that's to be expected. And it's like, I think given the circumstance that Charlotte has been in where she's been called unattractive her whole life, which is not even true. And the fact that she's 27 years old, oh no, we're both literally dead in this situation. But like, you know, the time, whatever. And I still think that she ends up,

she stands up to Lizzie and is like, look, what would you fucking do in my situation? And then on top of that is like, I'm not sentimental like you, I want to survive. Right. So like, what do you want from me? And Lucy has to like, it's still not how she's going to live her life. And part of that is because of her own privilege both physically and financially. Right. And so she is privileged to be able to take the stands that she does and not have her whole life fall apart as a result, even though it still could, but like less likely.

You know? Yeah, she's got, you know, like youth privilege. Youth privilege. Keira Knightley, hot privilege where she can turn down Mr. Collins. She can turn down Mr. Darcy for his first proposal. Yeah, she's turning down people. Even though Mr. Collins is like, yeah, there's no guarantee that you'll ever get

another marriage proposal, and it's like, sir. Do you know who you're talking to? You're talking to Keira Knightley. Which also makes the scene at the beginning when Mr. Darcy's like, yeah, she's tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me, and it's like, you're talking about Keira Knightley. Well, great, we're all fucked

because you just called Keira Knightley ugly. Like, what are you talking about? Anyway, I agree. But I think that like in the text, Lizzie is forced to examine that and like is able to get past it and continues like because it said in the book I think it's like Lizzie's like oh now we're never gonna see each other again we're not gonna be friends this sucks blah blah

blah but then they do remain friends and Lizzie gets past her prides and prejudices Charlotte I still I mean it's like I want better for Charlotte I want past her, Prides and Prejudices, Charlotte. I still, I mean, it's like, I want better for Charlotte. I want better for Mary. I want them to live in a society that doesn't make them feel like shit against stuff that isn't even true. Right. But then it's also like, I just really thought

that it was a nice thing in this story and in this time that like these two women prioritize their friendship and their love for each other. And because this is how things had to play out for Charlotte to survive in a way that she was comfortable with, that Lizzie's like, okay, I hear you. And we can still be friends. I just think it's really, it's not, it's not nothing is ideal in the way that stories work out between women and the story for the most part. But I do think that it's nice that they, like Lizzie prioritizes how Charlotte's feeling

and that's why she's able to remain friends. And Charlotte is also very sensitive to like, whatever. Charlotte's like empathetic to like, yeah I get why you didn't wanna marry Mr. Collins, but I'm doing it. So like be friends. Yeah, and I've got this room that I can escape to where he won't bother me and isn't that awesome.

She has her like woman cave. Where she's like, no, Collins is allowed. Yeah, I think one of the big strengths of this adaptation is that even though many, many characters were eliminated or scaled back in the movie, but the movie chooses to keep a lot of the relationships between women, notably Elizabeth and her sisters and mother and Elizabeth and her friend Charlotte.

Those are still present in the movie and they're given, I thought, a good amount of focus because even though the driving vehicle for this story is the romance between Elizabeth and Darcy, screen time dedicated to her relationships with women. They don't like to dwindle those down at the expense of this romantic relationship. I agree, I agree.

Yeah, and I like that you still get the relationship between Lizzie and Jane. I would have liked, and again, this is, I mean, and we have to, I mean, we've been recording for a while. So many hours. Almost been two hours. So we do need to wrap up, but like, I do like that Lizzie and Jane, like, they're,

again, it was like giving like a little bit of, little women of like, the eldest has, is a little more shy, a little more reserved. It was giving me some Meg March energy of like, I want a more traditional life. And Lizzie is, that's not who she is at all, but they have such a strong love for each other. They would do anything for each other. And they are able to like navigate each other's personalities and the way that like true are able to navigate each other's personalities and the way that true friendships and love does, I love their relationship.

I have such a soft spot for Jane, even though sometimes I'm like, Jane, speak up for yourself. But I feel like Jane is more of a problem- She's shy and modest. Shine. Yeah, she's a sweetie and Lydia, I mean, I also think that like with Lydia and Kitty, they're so young that it's like you can't really judge, like I understand that 16 is 30 in this world, but like they're so young that like you't really draw to them on anything. And the story acknowledges that.

They're very, very young. And it's like, yeah, they're two teenage girls that are really excited that there's a lot of cute boys around. They're 15, 17. Give them a break. And I do feel like maybe that both stories could have given them more empathy and reminders that it's like, these are kids.

So like chill out, you know. And even though adult men married 15 year olds during this time, yikes. They're still kids. They're teen girls doing teen girl shit. And everyone's just like, you were so silly and ridiculous. And it's like, no, they're just teenagers. You're teen girls doing teen girl shit and everyone's just like, you are so silly and ridiculous. And it's like, no, they're just teenagers. You're humiliating the family.

It's like, oh God, I'm glad the stakes weren't like that when I was a teenager. Because I mean, I was like, every teenage girl is like, if that's the stakes for every teenager in general, your family's fucked. Like teenagers are embarrassing. Like that's what you're supposed to be embarrassing. It's literally your one job is to do the most embarrassing thing you can think of.

Truly, yeah. Okay, so just a couple last little things. Fun fact I learned from our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia. Yeah. That apparently a person from Chile watched this movie 278 times during a single year. So an icon. Good for her. Oh, that's the end of the story.

I was like, what did they learn? They're like, nope, I just watched it. It was a 51 year old woman who declared herself as obsessed with the film and she saw Elizabeth Bennett as a feminist icon. Okay, she's right and that's literally gonna be me someday so I can't even criticize. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna do something 278 times. I mean, I watch Titanic basically 270 times a year. So yes, just a couple things I really enjoyed about the movie.

I love the scene where Elizabeth is dancing at the ball at Bingley's estate, and she's carrying on several different conversations, one with Mr. Collins, and then I think one with Jane, but because of how dancing was back then, you could only talk to someone for three seconds before you then stepped away from them. I just loved the choreography

and loved the dialogue in that scene. The choreography of this movie is amazing. The camera choreography, the physical choreography, like it's all so... I'm gonna see Sarah now. God damn it. I'm excited. Keira Knightley is doing really good face acting. Her facial expressions are doing so much work in the movie.

I love it. I love the scene where the women are all like lounging around the house very just like leisurely kind of sloppy. Mrs Bennett has like a half-eaten plate of food on her lap and then they see Bingley and Darcy walking up so they have this like mad scramble and then cut to them like very poised and proper to receive guests. But I just like love because it's like, wow, women back then were just like us. And I also love that this is a rare, I mean this is maybe a weird thing to make a note of.

But like Keira Knightley is the age of the character in this movie. Oh yeah. Lizzie, I feel like that's a very rare thing in movies. And I always use the example of like CW teenagers where like I could play a CW teenager and I am almost 30. So and that's been like the case forever. But like Keira Knightley is like, I think most people are like cast pretty age appropriate

in this, uh, in this movie. And so you do feel like, especially when it's like Jenna Malone, you're like, yeah Jenna Malone, I mean actually Jenna Malone is older than Keira Knightley, believe it or not. What? I think, let me double check, I think that Keira Knightley may be the youngest

in the cast, question mark. Even younger than Carey Mulligan? She and Carey Mulligan are the exact same age. Whoa. And then Rosamund Pike, how old is Rosamund Pike? Yeah, Rosamund Pike is older than them. It doesn't matter, sorry, continue. But yeah, like I just thought it was, yeah, she married,

like Keira Knightley, Tallulah Riley, and Kerry Mulligan were all the same age, even though they were playing different ages. Well, speaking of Mary and my justice for Mary Bennet section, again, the book mostly ignores her to the point where as I was reading it I was like, who's Mary? And then I thought that there were only four Bennet sisters for a large chunk of it. But I feel like in the movie she's like given a little bit more time and attention. I love the scene where she's like, balls are silly. If we're gonna get acquainted to each other,

how would anyone do that by dancing? Shouldn't you talk to a person to get to know them? And everyone's just like, shut up, Mary, but she's right. I just like her a lot and I wish her all the best. I think she's great. And I feel like the movie, even more so than the book, knows that she's great. And her character like the movie, even more so than the book, knows that she's great and her character is fleshed out a little more.

I like to think down the line that Mary really found someone, whether it was in marriage or friendship, who got her. I hope she did. Because it seemed like there wasn't anyone in her family who, in the way that Lizzie and Jane really got each other, and the way that Lydia and and Kitty for a lot of their relationship really got each other. It felt like Mary was the odd one out. I hope she found someone that really understood her. She deserved that.

But yeah, that's really all I had. Did you have anything else? No, that's basically all I had. I just, I truly, I mean, without getting personal, I feel like this story, I rediscovered the story at a very nice time and that like Lizzie, no matter when you're coming back to her, there's lessons to be learned from the gospel of Lizzie Bennet. She is incredible.

And I really like that she and Jane end the story very happy. And it is in the conventional way, but I feel like the way that Jane Austen writes and the way that this story in the adaptation plays out, it feels earned and you want these characters to find their bliss in the way that they could in this time. And it seems like they do.

And that makes me happy. In a way that, again, that like enemies to lovers trope never really works for me and as yeah you know Nora Ephron or no was it her sister pointed out like that never happens in real life where people start out hating each other and then they fall in love but that is a big movie thing. fall in love, but that is a big movie thing. I feel like this is maybe the one narrative where I can get behind that because it certainly didn't work for me in you've got mail or similar things. Most of the time, right? Because yeah, like we were saying, it's unrealistic. But like, in this one, it's so it starts with the broad trope, but it, it attacks the broad

trope with such subtlety and also just like time, like I feel like a part of the reason that you've got male doesn't work. There's a lot of reasons, but like one of the reasons it doesn't work is because it all happened so quickly. Right. And like pride and prejudice. It's like Darcy and Elizabeth don't talk for months at a time as they continue to work on themselves, which I feel like is honestly like kind of harder

for modern stories where it's so easy to keep tabs on each other. And like the idea of like truly not knowing what someone else is up to for months is kind of inconceivable if you're remotely interested in who they are or what they do. But this was a time where it's like, yeah, Lizzie didn't know what Darcy was up to while she continued to experience life and overcome her prides and prejudices independent of him and vice versa. And then it would be like, they would reconnect every several months and be like, oh, I'm growing, but it's still not time. And then they would reconnect and be like, oh, I'm growing, but it's still

not time. And then they would reconnect and be like, oh, you've improved. I've improved. Interesting. And like, I don't know. I feel like that's for me, that's, that's why it works is because it is like gradual and the issues that they have outside of their lives, it's interconnected because of the circles they run in, but it's like they're both on their own sort of stories. They're both dealing with their own shit and it's when they reconnect and kind of regroup and they're like, okay, I've improved in this way, but I still suck in this way. And then the other person's like, okay, well, I still have this pride and this prejudice, but I got rid of this pride and this prejudice and they're like, okay, let's regroup in September or like whatever, you know, I just, it feels very true to life. I just, uh, okay. Uh,

does this pass the Bechdel test? Yes. Although so much of the movie is women actually when are there conversations that pass because so many of the conversations between women where women do enter interact a lot in the movie But it seems like they're always talking about men if not directly like that's the subtext of the conversation I was getting Exchanges not full conversations, but exchanges do pass. Okay as Far as our nipple scales 0 to 5 nipples based on how the movie fares

from an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give this four nipples. It's a nice story. I really like this movie. I was not expecting to like this movie as much as I did, especially because like- I was so happy when I found out you liked it because I was like, there's hope.

If Caitlin likes it, I'm gonna love rewatching it. I think it's a really well-made movie. I get why people love it so much. It does make me wanna go back. Do you wanna see Cyrano? Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's see Cyrano together. Oh, I would be so excited to see Cyrano with you.

Let's do it. Dang glitch, dang glitch. And it makes me wanna watch the BBC mini series. Anyway, Four Nipples, because even though I think Mr. Darcy still has a lot of work to do on himself with all of his prides and prejudices, I love Elizabeth Bennet as a character. I do think she's a feminist icon.

I think it's cool that you can call a character from a book that's over 200 years old a feminist icon and I think this adaptation leans into that aspect of her character in really satisfying ways. And yes it is a very 19th century version of feminism that's very white and very hetero and very middle-class and maybe Four Nipples is too high but damn it it's just a really good movie so it gets some extra love. Who are you giving your nipples to? Oh one nipple to Lizzie Bennet. I'm gonna give one to Mary Bennett one to

the Servant woman who I think is given a name, but I forgot to write it down Uh, I might be like she does have a name bedsy or something like that And i'm gonna give my final nipple to around the 19 minute mark there is a very weird shot of a pig's testicles. Yes. I was wondering if that was going to come back, but it's just Mrs. Bennett looking at the pig's testicle and then she kind of smiles. And they were like, what? Why is this in the movie? Is that symbolism? I'm like, is my brain not making the connection? I'm

like, fertility. I'm like, what is it? What the connection? I'm like, fertility. I'm like, what are you trying to tell me? I don't know. Anyway, so I love the very gratuitous random shot of a pig's giant ball sack. Feminist icon, pig's ball sack, got it. And that's what gets my fourth and final nipple. Jamie, how about you?

I'll meet you at four for many of the same reasons. I think that this movie is so well done. I love, like, I feel like it's so rare that you're like, this adaptation makes the story both faithful to the source material and more accessible in a way that certainly hit for me when I was 12, where I had tried to read the book and I was like, I totally get it. And then I remember going to see the movie and being like, oh, now I actually get it

because it's laid out so clearly. But also in a way that doesn't sacrifice the themes or the characters, it just like pulls it into focus and makes it more streamlined and beautiful. Like Joe Wright movies are so beautiful. And I also just want to like acknowledge the behind the scenes stuff here. You know, huge ups to screenwriter Deborah Mogok who started as a novelist.

This was her first screenplay. It was nominated for BAFTA. Huge stuff. I mean, there's still, it is still mostly white guys behind the scenes. We've got Joe Wright directing, all male producers, male cinematographer. So I do want to like specifically focus

on the screenwriter who is a first time screenwriter. Also Emma Thompson helped with some of the story development and dialogue, but is uncredited. Emma Thompson has not given enough credit for the fact that she's also a very accomplished writer. I know. Enough, but is uncredited. Emma Thompson has not given enough credit for the fact that she's also a very accomplished writer. I know. She is. And also in terms of the the writer Deborah Mogok, she's also, I mean, she's just like has a cool life in general. She's been a huge advocate for

changing the law in dignity and death and assisted suicide and just like all of this really complicated like cool advocacy work like she's just a really cool person so I wanted to shout her out and Lizzie Bennet I mean I truly like there are few there's so I mean thankfully in the interstating 200 years there's been a lot of great feminist characters who've been writing but like Lizzie Bennet endures for a reason. She's fucking awesome. There's like we were talking about, there's still things that Lizzie Bennet's able to do and advocating for herself and her family and her loved ones that like, it's hard for me to do in the day to day.

It's a struggle out there. It's really like life affirming to be like, well, it worked out for Lizzie, right? Like anyways, I love this story. I love this movie. I was so refreshed and relieved to revisit it and find it to have just as many moments that really like stuck with me as it did when I saw it when I was 12. So I'll give it four nipples. I'm going to give one to Lizzie.

I'll give one to Deborah Mogok. I will give it four nipples. I'm gonna give one to Lizzie. I'll give one to Deborah Mogok. I will give one to Charlotte. I love Charlotte and I'll give one to Mary and those will be my four nipples. There you have it folks that was our unlocked matri on episode on pride and prejudice to matri on episode on Pride and Prejudice. Hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't heard it before because you're not already on the matri on, well now is the damn time. Yes, absolutely. As you heard in the episode, it's a little bit of a looser discussion. It's usually just me and Caitlin. And we very often cover movies that are our listeners choices. So a lot of weird stuff on there and a lot of fan favorites. So, and it's also just like a really nice community.

If you join the matri on, you often get discounts on merch at our shows. You get advanced tickets to our shows. There's just plenty of perks to being a part of the community. It's five bucks a month. And you also get access to upwards of 200 episodes of Backlog. We've had it since 2017, so however many times that equals.

We get asked a lot like what is the best way to directly support the show. That is the best way to directly support the show. And so we hope to see you over there. Also don't forget you can grab tickets to my stand-up show in State College, Pennsylvania in mid-April at the Blue Brick Theatre. We'll put the tickets to that on our link tree. Also that same weekend I'm teaching a stand-up workshop, so if you can't get enough of me and comedy, please come learn about standup from me at this workshop.

The registration link for that will also be on our Linktree. So hope to see you there if you're in the area. You can access the Bechtelcast's Linktree at Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Imagine that. And we'll put it in the description as well. Certainly. And with that, it in the description as well. Certainly. And with that you know I hope you enjoyed the episode we love you so much and you know

go make out with the love of your life see if we care. Yeah, dare. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of I Heart Media hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus produced by Sophie Lichterman edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme The Bechtel Cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.bechtelcast. Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless, D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it?

A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless,

it's me on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever. You get your podcast. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? Ow, goes lower. From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all new

fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. What's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to the hookup on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. my hard radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be cancelled for 15 minutes but don't worry,

we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm ready to fight. Oh, this is fighting words.

OK, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a bestselling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us, you know? We are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.