The Bechdel Cast - Real Women Have Curves (with new intro!) with Mala Muñoz

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

This week, we're re-releasing our episode on Real Women Have Curves with special guest Mala Muñoz -- with a new introduction that contains information and resources on how to support communities impacted by the recent escalation of ICE raids in LA and other areas. Visit linktr.ee/bechdelcast to check out links to the various resources!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs,

book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network.

So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to the American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes.

But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and batter than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the

Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you go to

find your podcast. On the Peck Del Cast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello Bechdel cast listeners. Jamie and Caitlin here. We are re-releasing one of our fave episodes this week that we recorded, what, two years ago or so?

That sounds possible. About the classic real women have curves directed by Patricia Cardoso written by and based on the play by Josefina Lopez. So the reason we're doing this may be evident but if you are international or live in a cave, but if you are international or live in a cave, this is a movie that is about East Los Angeles. It's a movie about the immigrant community in Los Angeles and in Los Angeles at the moment, there have been all of these horrific media narratives

claiming that there are riots in the streets when the riots are in fact being perpetrated by ICE and by the National Guard and by the LAPD no matter what Mayor Karen Bass says. At this podcast we say fuck Mayor Karen Bass. Yes. Karen is a Karen is a Karen. Is a Karen. I mean Los Angeles has always been a city of immigrants it has always been a city of unions and I think think the dual threat has really caused the city to come together in this amazing way. But there is still so, so, so much going on across the country, but particularly in LA is where this all sort of kicked off by ICE. To be clear, around a week ago for when we were recording

this, ICE showed up at a Home Depot in Paramount, California, which is another thing that seems to be widely misunderstood, how massive LA is, targeting specifically immigrants, which led to an impromptu protest, which has led to protests across the country, as ICE continues to essentially occupy the city. So we thought it would be a good moment to re-release an episode that is about the

immigrant community in LA. And yeah this movie is about a family that could very likely be torn apart by the types of raids that are happening right now. And that to be clear have been happening. Yes, this happens all the time. There is an escalation of it right now. But you know, during the Biden and Obama administrations, lest we forget, there were raids like this happening. Absolutely. And you know, if you're a listener in the US and you went to a No Kings protest this past weekend, good on you. But we also wanted to talk about something

we've talked about over the years of if you are feeling helpless and have the privilege to be able to do more, please do more. We're going to link some resources in the description of places to donate and also I think like a critical part that we've talked about before is finding your mutual aid practice to support vulnerable communities. So we'll add in, we'll add some links for that as well. We'll add those to our link tree

too. Absolutely and just so you know that we're keeping ourselves accountable, we are also going to be making a donation to, and I'll include more information about this, but in case this is actionable in your community, LA, there's a ton of incredible street vendors here who are from immigrant families or immigrants themselves. And there are a bunch of mutual aid efforts going on in our community to basically pay these employees to stay home so that they can stay safe from this horrific escalation of ICE as they continue to occupy our city.

So if there are similar efforts in your community, donate to them. If there are not similar efforts in your community, I've watched through a series of, you know, signal chats over the course of the weekend, people just going and speaking with their community members, speaking to street vendors in their community to see if this is something they would be interested in. So, you know, there's numerous ways to stay involved and to protect your community. And so we wanted to re-release this episode

just to acknowledge that this is a podcast that is engaging with the world. It is the very least we can do and that we're staying engaged as well. To all of our listeners who are immigrants or have family who are immigrants, we stand with you. We will do anything and everything we're able to to continue to do so.

The Bechtel cast is an inclusive show, it is for fucking everybody. And I also wanted to mention that Josefina Lopez, who wrote this show, has also been doing a lot to draw attention to actions and notifying where ICE has been showing up because that's also a lot of community work. We'll link it in the description, but know how to identify an ICE vehicle and know where to call if you identify an ICE vehicle so people can be notified as quickly as possible. Other ways to get involved and stay engaged and support your communities, you can distribute

Know Your Rights cards. Yeah, red cards. Which include information about the rights that immigrants and that people in general have and distributing those to your neighbors, your community so that people can be as informed as possible. And that's another thing as well where I think that there's all of these popular narratives that people who aren't citizens don't have rights. That's not true. There's this thing called human rights that still exist. It just drives me fucking wild. If you are able to get cards, they're also more and more widely available.

I think that they're available at most public libraries if you are looking to acquire some. I also think that a community that has sort of been left behind in this discussion are the unhoused. There is a tremendous amount of overlap between the undocumented immigrant community and the unhoused community, particularly here in LA, but also everywhere.

We will be linking a number of resources in the description. We are still learning as well. We're not coming on here to be like, fuck you, do better. We're all doing our best, but just we're asking our listeners who have the privilege to do so as we do to stay involved, stay informed,

and really show up for your community in ways that might not always be comfortable. A couple of talking points I wanted to touch on as well. Kind of emphasize a talking point that there are some people who are like, yeah, we shouldn't detain or deport immigrants because of their contributions to the workforce. Like, they grow our food. Right. This is something that politicians

who have been speaking out against ICE raids have used as their justification, and it's such horseshit. I wanted to actually quote my friend Albert, who's a terrific Los Angeles organizer and a huge Bright Eyes fan, and these are two of the many reasons that I, and he was actually, he was at our most recent Bickelte show in LA. Albert is the best and he yeah he tweeted on June 9th just a little note stop trying to justify someone's

existence in this country by saying they're quote-unquote hard-working literally who gives a shit the government is kidnapping people in broad daylight whether they work hard or not, is irrelevant and beside the point. No one should be defined by their labor, it's people. It's people being kidnapped from their homes and from the streets, that is what matters. It's a kill the cop in your head moment, do not define people by their labor. Absolutely.

Another thing is people are also talking about how this is connected to Palestine and people are like, but why, but how that's happening over there. There's a direct correlation in the sense that law enforcement in the US are trained in the fake state of Israel. They learn tactics. Yeah. The idea, the idea of colludes with American policing systems constantly. Constantly and then just the larger context of all of this is happening because of white

supremacy pro imperialism, pro settler colonialism. Like it's it's all connected not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it is. Well, I mean, yes the the intersections are Infinite. I mean there's yes. I would also I will also link in the description There's an episode of we the unhoused that just came out on Tuesday that also speaks to the way that these communities and these atrocities intersect and Yeah, check out the the links in our description.

Get involved in your community specifically. You are needed and stay safe. We love you. We love you. And enjoy this episode about real women have curves. The Bechdel cast. Jamie, it's so hot in here. Can you please turn the fan on in this recording studio?

No, it gets the podcast dusty. Can't turn on the fan. The podcast will be covered in dust. It'll be a catastrophe for us. Sorry. Well, fine. I'll just take off all my clothes then. All right, that's not my business.

I guess I'll do the same. I guess I'll do the same Yeah, that sounds great. Actually, the only person that's gonna piss off is mommy Mommy podcast Cool. Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. Yeah that I think that resolved very cleanly Welcome to the Bechtel cast my name is Caitlin Durante My name is Jamie Loftus and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens Using the Bechdel test as a jumping-off point for discussion Which of course is a media metric created by a career cartoonist Alison Bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test

whereby and Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, whereby two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. And ideally, for our sake, it is a meaningful, substantial conversation and not just like a, hey, what? No, keep this going, this feels, this sounds good. This feels good. How's your soup? And then the other person says, I'm not listening to you.

Go away. And then the first character disappears forever. And they're like, wait, my name is Crystal. As they're leaving. But it's too late, we didn't hear it on screen. That's an example of something that is great writing, but not great to pass it. Look, anyways, it's a flawed metric

because that was an amazing scene we just did. I'm gonna base an entire screenplay around it. Yeah. It's gonna be called an extremely soupy movie. An extreme, no, no it's not. And I can't engage with this joke any further. I can't, I draw the line. Look, look, in the case of today's episode,

Bechdel test, not a problem. Let's just say that right now. No problem at all. Yeah. Yes. And so I said, let's get to it. Let's get our incredible returning Bechtel cast guest into the room. Let's get her in the mix.

We simply must. She's a comedian, podcaster, creator and host of Mere Oneira, a podcast for potheads. And you remember her from our episode on Selena, it's Malamunos. Hey everyone. Welcome back. Thank you for having me.

It feels great to be back. It's our pleasure. And it is also mine. We brought you back in 1000 degree heat. It's, you know what? There's literally nothing else I would rather be doing than podcasting about this film in a heat wave. It's apt. It makes sense Yeah, I feel like I'm in the movie. It's true

We were joking about how by the end of the episode we will all be taking our clothes off Hopefully because of the heat look PR nightmare. Maybe Will HR get involved? Maybe possibly am I open to it? Yes, yeah, so fucking hot today Will HR get involved? Maybe. Possibly. Am I open to it? Yes. It's so fucking hot today. It is 100 or like 97 degrees in where I'm at in LA right now. Unpleasant. But you know what's not unpleasant?

The movie we're discussing today. Oh my gosh. Very fun watch. Very enjoyable. Real women have curves. Yes. Mala, what's your relationship, your history with this film? You know, I feel like my relationship with the film starts with my relationship with America Ferrera

because she was like a Disney Channel darling. She was in Gotta Kick It Up about the Latina dance team. And that's where like I was born in 92. That's where I was first introduced to America Ferrera. So when Real Women Have Curves came out, it was like, oh, this is a recognizable actress who we love. And she had this like incredible like role. And I don't know if that's a movie

that a lot of people have seen, but in like little Latina circles, gotta kick it up, Real Women Have Curves, super just iconic like staples of our media diet. Nice. So did you see real women have curves like right when it came out?

You know, so 2002, I don't remember where I was or where I saw it. I just remember that like it was like this standout movie to me because of Lupe Ontiveros is in it, George Lopez is in it, America Frere is in it, and there are others throughout the film who are iconic actors and actresses. But I remember thinking, oh my God,

this little movie has all these recognizable faces that I've seen in all these other projects. Lupe Ontiveros played Yolanda Salivar in the Selena biopic. Yeah. So so for that reason, it was like, wow, like I've seen these faces in all these other projects, Disney Channel, Selena, George Lopez, and now they're all here in this one movie. Like that's fucking sick. What a great cast and like amazing performances across the board. And learning about the, I mean, we'll get into it, but like learning about the production history of this movie is like very frustrating and very fascinating.

And I just like, can't wait to get into it. Truly agreed. Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie? I had kind of a similar journey. I, uh, every decom that came out was my favorite movie. And so, Gotta Kick It Up was, I feel like a significant one that was like kind of in like the upper pantheon of DCOMs.

I really, really loved it. That was definitely how I, even though I think that technically Real Women Have Curves was made before Gotta Kick It Up, definitely learned about America Ferrera and fell in love with her through Gotta Kick It Up. And I don't remember, I know I saw Real Women Have Curves when I was a kid. I was trying to sort out in my head

the sequence of events of I might have seen Gotta Kick It Up, Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, and then seen Real Women Have Curves to be like, we have to get into vintage America Ferrera. Right. But I definitely saw it when I was in like either late middle school, early high school, really, really loved it,

have revisited it a couple times over the years, but I hadn't seen it in a really long time, and definitely not since I had moved to LA. And so it was like such a delight to like revisit. I really love this movie and yeah getting to learn more about the the film and kind of the the added like I feel like this is such a cool example of like adapting something into a movie well which is so often done Badly or sloppily or lazily or whatever but like this is just like a beautiful adaptation and I'm so excited to talk about it

Caitlin, what's your history with real woman have curves? I saw this movie in High school because I came out in 2002. I think I would have seen it in like 2003 or four when I was about Anna's character's age in the movie yeah because I think if my memory serves me correctly my mom had heard about this movie and was like I heard it's really good Roger Ebert gave it three and a half stars let's watch it. Let's rent it from the video store.

The ultimate yardstick. This is a very, like, I feel like I probably watched this with my mom. It's a very mother, like there's not a lot of mother-daughter movies. I mean, and their relationship will get there, but. And it would have required someone, we had to have the DVD of this film to watch it.

So I feel like I went to Blockbuster or someone recommended it. And, and, cause I don't remember seeing it in the movie theaters or on TV. Like I feel like it was a DVD situation. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's my recollection as well. Gosh. Like, yeah.

Like the, the later Blockbuster years, what a beautiful, what a beautiful time. In its twilight. Does anyone remember the last DVD they got from Blockbuster? Wow. I feel like that's a fun question. My hometown was so small that we didn't even have a Blockbuster. Wow.

We had to go to just like the local video rental store, which I don't even remember what it was called now. It might have just been called like video store. The video store. Amazing. Anyway, so yeah, I saw it in high school as a teenager and I haven't watched it since then, I don't think, but there were two scenes in particular

that are just like seared into my memory. You know, when you watch a movie that you, I mean, you don't see it for years, but there are just like little moments that you will never forget and then have just been like logged into your memory bank forever. The scene where America Ferrera is like admiring her body,

she like pulls her robe open and is like looking at herself in the mirror and then her mom comes in and she like immediately knows that she's lost her virginity. That like was completely seared into my memory. And then the like climactic scene at the end when all the women at the dress factory are taking their clothes off and comparing bodies and Ana's mom is horrified. Like what a great scene. I will never forget that. The other scene that I did not remember

her mom being like, you lost your virginity, and being right, I was like, oh, I'm kinda glad that didn't stick with me. I was like, oh, how did she know that? Yeah. But I think it was steered into my memory because I was so afraid that that would happen to me with my mom. Oh my God.

Like you can tell, like I do, I look different. And in that scene too, she opens with like, she uses such strong language with Ana, like throughout the movie, one of the things that like really sticks out to me is like the vocabulary that Carmen, that Anna's mother uses. So like immediately in that scene, she's like, you tramp. And then she tells her like, not only are you fat, you're a puta, you know? Very hard language that just really punctuates

like every aspect of the scene. Yeah, totally. One of the scenes that stuck with me, the hardest on this viewing was the scene where it's like on his first day working at the factory and her mom is Body-shaming her and then the second another person enters the room. She's all of a sudden nice and you're like, oh no I know that dynamic like that's so that, I don't know how many times I've like seen that like on screen,

like depicted in a very straightforward way of like, well yeah, like, you know, I can be a total asshole to you when no one's around, but then the second there's a third party, my demeanor completely changes. And you're like, yeah, I saw that a ton growing up. Like it's just, woof, woof. Anna's mom has this way of just like raining on her parade like at every possible moment.

Like even from the opening scene of them, because like that scene where she's like talking bad to Anna, like Anna's like admiring a dress on one of the mannequins and she's just looking at it and how pretty it is. And her mother immediately comes in with, you can't fit into that. Like you're way too fat. There's no way there's enough fabric to cover you.

Like look at your chi-chis, they're so huge. And then in walks Norma. And even the very first scene of the movie, Anna's on her way to school, her last day of high school, and her mom is sick in bed and asking her to stay home to make breakfast for the men. You know, she's just like a party pooper throughout the whole film. That scene, that scene like at the factory, like truly, I was like,

oh my God, she was literally just standing there and like it turned into an attack. Like, oh yeah, yeah, we will unpack that relationship soon. Yes. It's wild because she's so likable. She's so lovable, the mom. Even when she's saying all these horrible things, she's still kind of funny when she's saying them. And the tension between the two of them is like,

I don't know. There's something still endearing about her, even as she infuriates you. You know? Right. I feel like a lot of that is just like Lupe Antivero's performance as well. Like her performance.

Yeah. Oh man. Across the board, like every performance in this movie is so good and like layered and full of heart. And I mean, the fact that like America Ferrera was 15 when she started in this movie and like the whole range of like, she's just so fucking talented. It is such a good movie.

I am sad I like slept on it for all of those years in between like when I first saw it and now. You're back baby. I'm back baby. Shall I do the recap? Let's do it. Okay. So we meet Ana Garcia, played by America Ferreira. She's a teenager

who is about to finish high school in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it? We meet her family, her sister Estella, played by Ingrid, and I'm not sure how to pronounce her last name, Oliu. Her dad, Raul, played by Jorge Cerreira Jr., her grandfather, her like Abuelito, and then her mom, Carmen, played by Lupe Ontiveros, who Ana has a loving but difficult relationship with, as we've hinted at and will discuss further. Carmen, we will learn, gets on Ana's case about a lot of different things and has certain pretty rigid expectations for Ana. And for Estella. Yes.

Ana heads to her last day of high school. She and her family live in, I think, East LA. Yeah, Boyle Heights. Boyle Heights, right, because that was very based on the source material. This was adapted from a play. I know we'll talk about this, but a play by Josefina Lopez, who writes about Boyle Heights a ton. That is very much her background and her community. Yep. But Ana takes several city buses

to get to school in Beverly Hills Her teacher mr. Guzman played by George Lopez asks her about her college applications But she says she's not going to college because her family cannot afford it He reminds her that there are scholarships grants financial aid But she's like, I don't know not that that she doesn't want to, it's just, she knows it's gonna be- Be like an issue within the family. Exactly.

Her family throws a little congrats on graduating high school celebration. We also see Anna quit her job at a fast food joint, which upsets her mom. But it's a fun scene to watch her quit. I loved watching her quit. That was very fun. And I actually think that the cashier is Josefina Lopez,

the one who hands her the check. She is in the movie as a character named Veronica, but I was like, who's Veronica? I couldn't remember exactly. That's so cool. All right, that's great. And she killed it. She was so great in that one scene. She's keeping

Ana's check in her bra and Ana's like, that's sick. Now I like that scene even more. I was just like, whoever that character actor was, was really funny. Yeah. Holy shit. Oh, that's great. And now that I'm like looking at her picture again, I'm like, oh yeah, that totally was her. That's her. Yeah. Amazing. So Ana quits her job, which upsets her mom, who suggests she work at the clothing factory that her sister, Estella, runs.

Something that neither Anna nor Estella really want. But Anna needs to learn needs to earn money to help the family. And Estella is behind on her work orders so she will go to work at the factory. Mr. Guzman pays Ana a visit to keep encouraging her to submit college applications but her family and her mom especially are against Ana going to college right now because she needs to work and help the family. The next day, Ana and her sister and mom go to Estella's clothing factory where they assemble dresses to be sold at Bloomingdale's for $600, even though the manufacturer only pays them $18 per dress to assemble each dress.

And Ana points out how unfair this is is how their labor is being exploited also I think probably at the time that would have been the first time I had heard that issue discussed in a movie like At all for sure. Yeah, there's a an interesting class discussion around this movie for sure And then we meet the other women who work at the factory, such as Pancha, Norma, and Rosalie. Also, Ana's mom, Carmen, body shames Ana several times and tends to comment on most people's weight. That's just kind of a habit of hers.

Yeah, because there was that scene where, I mean, the scene we were just talking about where she is verbally abusive towards her daughter. Her employees start to arrive and then she's nice to them, but then she also turns on her employees pretty quickly and starts criticizing them as well. And you're like, oh, I guess this is just her personality. Oh, everybody gets it. Yeah.

Yeah. She gives it to everybody. Everyone gets a slice. You get a polite hello and then things take a turn. Uh-huh, yep. So then Anna gives her filled out college applications to Mr. Guzman, but he points out that she's missing a personal statement and that she needs to write one

as soon as possible. Then Anna runs into her classmate, Jimmy, who seems to like her. He's got a little crush, and he gives Ana his phone number. Back at the factory, Estella is struggling to keep up with the work order, especially after several of her workers unexpectedly leave to move to Mexico. Then we get a scene where Carmen tells Ana a secret that Carmen thinks she's pregnant, but Ana is like, Mom, that's pretty unlikely. You probably know what's happening.

For all the shit that Ana has to put up with, I love that she's always very quick to be like, enough. Like, stop. No. I love that she's always very quick to be like, enough. Like, stop. No. She advocates for herself exceptionally well. Yeah. And I love her for it.

Even in situations where you can tell, like, I don't know. Or where it felt to me like you could tell, she's like, I'm not going to win this battle, but I have to say this. Like, you're not pregnant, mom. So then, Ana goes with Estella to speak to Mrs. Glass who is the owner of the dress manufacturing company to ask for an advance so they can pay the bills and keep the lights running at the factory

but Mrs. Glass still denies them an advance so then Anna goes to her dad for a loan. Meanwhile Anna goes out on a date with that kid Jimmy. They have a nice time. He's got big that kid Jimmy energy too. I was like, who is this Elijah Wood ass looking kid? Yeah, Elijah Wood wasn't available slash he's too old. Too old. That kid Jimmy, he was only in movies for a couple years

and then he, who knows, he tapped out and he was done. I liked his character though. He said some things that made me go, ugh. But overall, he seemed like a sweet kid. He's very like her first nice white boyfriend. It's an experience, it's a type. It's, oh, I had a nice white boyfriend, you know, it's an experience, it's a type, it's, oh, I had a nice white boyfriend like back home, like, and that's him. Right, right, yeah.

So she goes out with Jimmy, Anna then turns in her personal statement to Mr. Guzman, we see another day at work, it's hard, it's hot, Anna admires the dresses she steams at the factory and is sad to remember that they're not for her. But then Estella surprises Ana with a dress that she made especially for Ana in a very sweet moment. I love that part. And it is a beautiful dress too.

And I always wish there was like a dress reveal moment, like an occasion for her to wear that dress. I was like, is there a cut scene? Cause it felt like Chekhov's dress. Exactly. Where is the dress? Where is she wearing it? Yeah.

I hope she wore it at like some, I don't know, some New York event. Yeah. She goes to, to a mixer at Columbia. Yeah, yeah, she's like, I just wore a gown to orientation, is that normal? Can you do that? No. No.

No. No. Then Mr. Guzman stops by to let Ana know that she's been accepted to Columbia University with a full scholarship, but her parents are still like, now is not the right time for Anna to go to college, which is extremely disappointing to Anna.

She then goes out with Jimmy again, they have sex, her mom senses that she has lost her virginity, and like we were saying earlier, she calls Anna a tramp and a puta. One of the biggest mysteries of the movie, how did she know? How did she know? Was it because America Ferrera was looking in the mirror being like, go meet?

Like, how does she know? My guess is that she was just confidently admiring her body. For the first time ever. Yeah. Right. So she's like, I better put an end to this confidence my daughter's feeling. That was more the Spidey sense going off.

I think my daughter's having a good feeling. It's like her favorite refrain. She's always like, a mother knows, a woman knows. She just knew. And this time she was right. She turns out to not be right about being pregnant because she goes to the doctor. Take a hundred shots and you're gonna make one eventually. True. The reason that Carmen has missed several periods in a row is because she is going through

menopause not because she is pregnant. So then we see another day at the dress factory. It's a particularly hot day and Estella won't turn on the fan because it blows dust on the dresses. So Ana takes off her shirt and her mom freaks out, but Ana is like, what's the big deal? We're all women here. We all have the same parts. And then all of the other women at the factory take their clothes off. They compare bodies, they compare cellulite and stretch marks, and they're like, we're beautiful, we're awesome. But Carmen is looking on in horror. And Ana is just like, this is who we are, mom, real women. And Carmen storms out while the other ladies continue working and dancing and celebrating themselves and their bodies.

I'm interested in talking about the shooting situation around that scene. There's a lot to talk about there too. Oh, I'm interested to learn more. And then finally, Ana heads off to Columbia University. She tries to say goodbye to Carmen and to get her mom's blessing, but Carmen refuses. So her dad and grandpa take Anna to the airport. And then we see Anna walking down the streets of New York City.

Ever heard of it? And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep-diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years. And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic.

So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this. This podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission.

This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st, and episodes four, five, and six on June 4th.

Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater podcast network, hosted by me, writer and historian, Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West.

I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams, and bestselling author and meat eater founder, Stephen Ronella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves.

So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jeff Perlman The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. Rick Jervis We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakley, sports editor and aspiring rapper. Jeff Perlman And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea.

Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you. But then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence.

So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. I feel like a little bit of context for how this movie came to be is a good place to start before we get into the characters. So this as we've sort of hinted at already this is a movie that is based on a play by Josefina Lopez. Her background is she was born in Mexico and then immigrated to Los Angeles. A lot of her work surrounds that experience and sort of reflections of her experience. This play is very

much a part of that. She started writing, reading about her career, I'd never like gone down this Wikipedia hole and she's like so fucking cool. She wrote her first play in high school while the rest of us were doing God knows what. She was at work and she wrote a play called Simply Maria or the American Dream. She then went on to write Real Women Have Curves. The play was very well regarded. It was very successful. My understanding is it's pretty close to what happens in the movie because she co-writes the screenplay and is apparently one of my favorite characters. I just learned.

But anyways, Real Women Have Curves is her biggest hit so far and and is apparently one of my favorite characters, I just learned. But anyways, Real Women Have Curves is her biggest hit so far, and people want to adapt it in one way or another. Originally, and I didn't know any of this before reading this kind of retrospective piece, so at the time, it was going to be adapted for television by Norman Lear who is first of all, 100 years old and still alive,

which you gotta hand it to him. Wow. But he had a reputation in Hollywood for being one of the only producers who championed diverse stories for television. And so most diverse families you saw on television in the 70s, 80s and 90s into the 2000s, he's still working, were a result of his championing.

He is a white producer who was known for championing women's stories and diverse stories. So he seemed to Josefina Lopez to be kind of a natural fit for getting this project adapted into television. However- He did one day at a time, right? Like the more recent adaptation, yeah. Yeah, and the first one was also him.

Right. And he did, I'm trying to, I was like, God, older TV is truly not my strength. But let me get a few of his hits on the board. Samford and Son was his, One Day at a Time, The Jeffersons, Good Times, Maud, one of my favorite shows ever, Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.

Like, he got stories on TV that no one else was trying to So Josefina Lopez was excited that he wanted to help adapt it But even with the Norman Lear cosign they could not sell real women have curves as a TV series to networks Networks said it was not relatable a story enough which said it was not relatable a story enough, which we know is absolute horseshit. Horseshit, but very typical of Hollywood. Of TV, yeah, to this day.

So Josefina Lopez is discouraged, she's like one of the biggest TV producers in the world, can't get this produced, who's going to? There's a second wind with this project as a film script, so she meets a writer named George Laveau, second wind with this project as a film script. So she meets a writer named George Laveau, which is what a fun name, but I just like to say it, George Laveau, she meets Laveau and they decide to collaborate

on a screenplay together. And finally they find an executive who wants to fund the project. And it's a, I have a quote here. So this project was funded by HBO, which I don't think I knew, not that it matters. I just didn't know it was an HBO movie. So Josefina Lopez says this, I believe in 2017 in this retrospective. HBO's Maud Nadler had the power to say yes. It came down

to a female executive saying women's stories matter. Stories about mothers and daughters are important to me because I love my mother. And I remember asking Maud after we made the film why she said yes. She said, because I love my mother. Wow. It took a woman in a position of power to find value in the story, which is I thought, I don't know, that was like, oh, that's really nice. Yeah. And none of those men love their mothers. They all hate their mothers. I love my mother. Not enough to fund a story a woman wrote.

Let's not go, let's not go. Go get carried away. Look, look. Not that much. I respect women to a point. Very like, as the father of a daughter energy. Yes. So the project gets funded.

They find director Patricia Cardoso, who I believe is raised in Columbia. She signs on for the project. Lovue and Lopez become the hottest writing team in Hollywood. The movie's, oh, and then another huge thing that happens is George Lopez signs on as a co-producer, which also was like a big hand in

getting this movie in front of people. It goes to Sundance and the rest is history. But it was a huge, I mean, I think we see this a lot of times in projects that are not centered around the white experience and the white male experience. Like it was a huge uphill battle to get this project made, even though it was already like a proven successful entity through the play. Right. Right. And it really has aged so well.

I was watching it this morning and like the jokes land, the writing feels like still very like charming and fresh. And it's just a fun watch. And like nothing in that movie is standing out in a bad cringey way unless it's supposed to be, you know? It's just like so well written. And you know, it's like, yeah, the work speaks for itself. It's funny.

And like, it's just like, I don't know. This movie has so much going for it. It's so charming. Sorry, there's like a trash removal truck right outside my window making loud noises my air conditioner is on because it's eight million degrees my sorry for all the noise fire truck just passed my house and I smell fire. Oh no there's a lot going on. Okay okay let's go back to talking about the movie that takes place in LA around like literally

this exact time of year. Yeah, during a heat wave in the summer. The sweltering heat. Oh my gosh. But yeah, this movie does age so well. And we've talked about, there's like a span of time for movies and honestly it ranges for a long quite a long time but you know if you're from a certain generation

especially the movies of like the late 90s early 2000s like if that's when you're coming of age and those are like the movies and the media that you were like most exposed to which is the case for me at least, that era was just such a crap shoot for most media because it was like just steeped in sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, you name it, marginalized communities were punched down to in media. So it's just so refreshing to see a movie that's 20 years old from the early 2000s to be a movie that is like so I mean Feminist Masterpiece number one has so many strong impactful

messages the exact type of thing that like young people need to see to like be influenced in the right direction because it has such strong themes and messaging about body positivity, sex positivity. It showcases a complicated relationship between a mother and daughter, but one that's very authentic and familiar to a lot of people. So it's just like, it's doing so much. Class commentary, there's something something that honestly like didn't even

didn't connect for me until I saw it like explicitly kind of said by the creators of the movie because I didn't have my proper 2002 goggles on I guess was just showing Boyle Heights as the community that it is versus how East LA and as the community that it is versus how East LA and Latin people from LA were shown in media at this time that like this movie had a huge hand in you know offering a counter to the really prejudiced like overly simplistic narrative that was being shown in everything else. Which is like such a big part of Josefina Lopez's work. It's awesome. It's very wholesome.

It is, yeah. For sure, yeah. And like, yeah, just think about all the movies that you see that are like set in LA about rich white people living in wealthy neighborhoods, living in huge houses, that basically just ignores huge swaths of the population of LA.

There's a huge Latinx community that is not often represented in movies here in LA and often not represented favorably if it is represented at all. Yeah, I was just gonna say that Real Women Have Curves is markedly youthful and feminine when compared to other LA, Chicano, Mexican, Mexican American films, like literally the other movies that we can compare it to in the same sort of genre or cultural space

is like Blood in Blood Out, American Me. And then, you know, Mi Familia has more of a family dynamic at the beginning, but these films and then Zoot Suit, and these are all iconic films. Zoot Suit is a musical, it's a piece of theater, but all of these films also have a lot of violence in them. There's a lot of trauma. There's prison and gangs. And the ethos is very masculine,

and it's very much like a lot of men on screen and what they're going through in their lives. And then you have, real women have curves with like, I was on Josefina Lopez on her website and reading about her, like about me, which seems like she wrote it, which is awesome. And she's talking about how she started writing this play when she was 18.

It's so cool. You know, and how like, yeah, and how the sensibilities of an 18 year old girl have everything to do with why the film is everything that it is. And it's, I think it feels so fresh because it is because like such a young person wrote it. And it feels very like, like fresh too,

because it doesn't look or feel like steeped in super trendy stuff of the time. Like it doesn't really look like a 2000s film, I guess. Like it's not super stylized, like their wardrobe or their makeup or their hair or the music, you know? It's like, yeah, very wholesome. And like a Zoomer today who like goes thrifting might end up pulling

some of the outfits that America Ferreira is wearing in real women have curves, you know, like, it just feels very like, yeah, it feels like young. I was thinking that so much of it has come back around. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have a quote from Mr. Laveau himself. I just want to say his name. But yeah, like speaking to, you know, like drew attention to the fact like this is based

on Josefina's experience. So much is told through the soft, warm, humorous tone of her experience. Hopefully that's what you're seeing when you see the city as different from the gangs and the grittiness of other films from this time. Josefina wanted to show the city as a vibrant place where women can have full lives and grow.

And I feel like this movie pulls that off a million percent. Oh yeah. Yeah, I wanna share a quote from the director, Patricia Cardoso says, quote, I wanted to show a part of Los Angeles we don't usually see in a beautiful way, not a seedy neighborhood filled with stereotypes of East LA. It was important to expand the concept of beauty for women, but also for the city and the director, from the writer, all comes through very clearly in very satisfying ways. I had one other behind the scenes thing I wanted to, and I know this will come in and out for the rest of the episode, but I was happy that this article, I was so curious

of the sequence of America Ferrera lore. So I guess that she had already shot, gotta It Up before she shot Real Women Have Curves. And I just like, I love this story. It was like when she got her check from Gotta Kick It Up, she got a car and wanted to go to drama camp. And like those are, that's what she used her money for. I was like, she's so great. Wow.

They wanted her to audition for this movie. She was like, well, I'm going to drama camp. So if you're still casting when I'm done at drama camp, like hit me up basically. And then like listening to her talk about that in her thirties. And she was like, that was a bold move for a 17 year old to do. But fortunately, they still wanted me to be in the movie. So I love America for so much. and she was like, that was a bold move for a 17 year old to do, but fortunately they still wanted me to be in the movie. So I love America for Ever so much.

I was curious about what scenes in this retrospective they would talk about. And there was a fair amount of discussion around, I feel like the scene that people remember best from this movie when they're in the factory at the end and they take their clothes off and they talk about their bodies and it's like this really celebratory cool moment. So I guess America Ferrera was yeah I said she was 15 I was wrong she was 17 when this movie was being shot but still it's still she's still a kid and I guess that on the day that this was being shot she decided that she didn't want to take her pants off so this was sort that this was being shot, she decided that she didn't wanna take her pants off.

So this was sort of, this was hashed by a few people. I mean, and it seems like, you know, 15 years later, she's fine, everyone's relationship is fine, but at the time, so the scene had been blocked, they were ready to shoot it. I think prior to the scene being shot, America Ferrera said, okay, that's okay, I'll do that. But I just wanted to share a few quotes from her

because kids acting is like such a, such a mire and I, she was uncomfortable during that scene. So she says, I was 17 years old and it was only my second job. I'd never had to take off my clothes in front of a 200 person crew, most of them men. I'm sure it was only my second job I'd never had to take off my clothes in front of a 200 person crew most of them men I'm sure it was incredibly intimidated by that I remember wearing a robe between takes and as the day went on it was too much of a hassle to get the robe on and off so I was like

whatever I'll stand here without the robe but basically that the crew tells this story about how she decided she wasn't comfortable taking her pants off and then I believe the director faked getting a phone call from an HBO executive. She was like, you know, well, you know, this is a really important part of the script. We need you to do this. And America for error was like, I'm not comfortable with that. I don't want to do it anymore. And she's like, well, let me call HBO.

The director goes outside fakes a call. So this is from, George LeVue is recapping this. Okay, so no, sorry. This is George LeVue making the call. LeVue canceled now. Okay. George LeVue, harsh turn in his narrative. I don't like him anymore.

Yeah, not LeVue. Not, it's always LeVau though, isn't it? So L'Veau says, I made an excuse. I said, let me call Colin Callender, who was the head of HBO Films at the time. I said, let me see what he wants. So I took my phone outside and I pretended to call Colin. I came back and said, Colin said you have to do it.

And she said, okay, we'll do it. I didn't know what we were going to do. I couldn't imagine the movie without that scene. Hopefully they're happy it happened that way. Then, Patricia Cardoso jumps on this train and says, America was mad at me the whole day. It took two days to shoot that scene and she was so mad. She wouldn't even look me in the eyes.

The next day she came running to me and said, you know, now I understand why it was important for the character to take off her pants. Can we please shoot the scene again? I said no you did it perfectly. America Ferrera now in her 30s, this is in 2017, kind of puts a pin on this discussion that I was like I'm mad at them personally, but she says, I clearly see how this film empowered others to feel seen, liberated, and beautiful, but I was a child playing everything but a typical child.

More than saying, oh, that's my body, people watched it and said, oh yes, that's how my mom responds to my body, that's how my culture responds to my body, that's how the world responds to my body. For me, being a young woman going through my own journey with my body, having seen and talked, having it seen and talked about and projected upon

by people watching this movie, if anything, sort of stunned me for a while, because that in and of itself sent a strong message about how I should feel about my body. And it was a much longer journey for me to get to a place where I felt empowered about my body, the way that film helped others feel. Dang. Levels. It's...

Levels for sure. It's complex. I mean, personally, I'm like, okay, production-wise, I don't think that that was a very... that was like a dishonest and irresponsible way to handle that. Yeah. Especially with someone who's underage, who's a minor. Right, right. I mean she's 17 in this situation and like that was the one production thing that I learned that didn't sit super well because it's like yeah this like she's an incredible performer she's but it's I mean a teenager talking about their body on screen is So I can't imagine how excruciatingly difficult that oh, yeah must have been and so to have like pressure put on top of her

Like you have to do this like that sucks. Yeah, it's it's like this period of your life where IRL teenagers are still wearing t-shirts in the swimming pool and like not showing their bodies to anybody, like if they feel uncomfortable. And I think what's interesting too is like America Ferrera, like in that quote, nowhere is she saying that she didn't like her body or she felt fat or she felt not proud of her body or uncomfortable in her body. You know what I mean?

It's like there's all these projections and it has so much to do with like, of course it's literally the projections and it has so much to do with like, of course, it's literally the the plot and it's the movie and It's the character and it's the storyline. So that's all baked in there. Like she's cast in this role Because the main character Ana is a gordita. She's chubby. So she's got to look the part, you know and then I think about the fact that like all the levels, right? Because that script was written by somebody Josefina,

who probably experienced this exact same like type of body shaming that goes on in our families. And then those actresses being Latinas probably have all experienced something similar in their own lives. And I don't know that in their particular families or lives that just because we have this awareness in the script and in the movie that, you know, everybody is beautiful and that fat is beautiful, that those actresses

when they go home, their families are not necessarily on board, like that script is probably still there, you know, like that is still happening in the outside world. Yeah. You know, so it's just, I just think about the compounded levels of it all in a movie like this. Right. Yeah.

And you hear about stories where like a scene like this is in the script and it calls for nudity, partial nudity, you know, people wearing underwear. It didn't feel like inappropriate or exploitative, but I also like... Not at all. No. Can totally understand why a 17-year-old actor,

when the moment comes to take your clothes off in front of 200 people, no matter how safe you are, it's like that's... You can feel amazing about your body and be uncomfortable with that. Like, that's... Yeah. So that's what I was gonna say.

You hear stories about, like, some productions being like, OK, I know this is going to be a potentially very uncomfortable scene for the actors. So we're going to take a bunch of precautions to make it as comfortable as possible. And that ranges from hiring like, if it's like a sex scene, like a sex choreographer will basically be hired. Or there will be social workers

or other kind of mental health professionals on set or nearby to consult with if the actors need, to consult with somebody or talk to someone. There will be a reduced crew, where normally the crew might be 200 people, but on a shoot day like that, you scale it way back. I've heard of, let's say the DP is a man, but they will like temporarily

hire a woman. I mean, they could have just hired a woman anyway. But they, they did say that like, it wasn't actually 200 people. It was, that was like, I think America Frere was like, hype hype, what is hyperbole hyperbole hyperbolic. Yeahbolic, yeah. I went to school, I swear. So per LeVue, there were dividers up so that not every member of the crew had access to the shooting of the scene. So I don't have the number count, but it was like America decided she didn't want to take off her pants in front of the crew.

And I guess she told her director that she was like, oh, I don't think that the character would actually do that or all this stuff. Also, I don't envy the director's position in that situation either, because that's a really, especially on a lower budget movie, that's a really, really difficult position to be put in. For sure.

But it could have been handled better. She's a kid. I wonder too, that scene, I wish that I could see it, like how it was staged for the theater and for the stage, because I can imagine that, obviously on camera, you see a certain, you can only see so much and things are kind of far away, you know, and I feel like

on the stage and in the theater you're much up close and personal and I can just imagine that the row of like the factory scenes and the row of sewing machines and the women sewing and the sounds and the visuals probably very striking and dynamic on stage. And I'm sure that when it gets to that part about them taking off their clothes and showing off their stretch marks and their cellulite, that that's very impactful on stage and very dynamic, you know, in a different way than in the movie. And like, I wonder how it was handled even like for the stage and the taking off the clothes

and the lead actress and those pieces because it's a scene that everybody loves. It's like a standout scene for everyone. I would love to see a stage production of this. I also didn't know that I guess Josefina Lopez opened a theater in Boyle Heights. Yes. Casa 001 I wanna say.

Yeah, yeah. Back in 2000. On First Street. Yes. Casa 001, I want to say. Yeah, yeah. Back in 2000. On First Street. Cool. She has a restaurant also called Casa Fina. Oh, no way. On First Street in Mariachi Plaza. And then, so, and Mariachi Plaza is featured

in the movie throughout, like you see it. Right. And Ana goes on her dates in Mariachi Plaza and she walks through Mariachi Plaza to catch her bus to high school. So right there on first, she has her restaurant, Casa Fina, Casa Fina, and then the theater down the street. Cool.

That's so cool. Yeah. So that was all the behind the scenes stuff I had. Well, yeah, so let's take a break and then we'll come back and discuss the story, the movie, the characters, et cetera. Yay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like great shoes, great books take you places through unforgettable love stories

and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the

people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying you have to read this, This podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian, Dr. Randall Williams, and bestselling author and meat eater founder, Stephen Rinella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice age people

that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your

gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley, comes a story about what happened when a multibillion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission.

This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two and three on May 21st and episodes four, five and six on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcasts.

Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing, no town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country, begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. I've never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there.

Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother, she was still somebody's daughter, she was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for.

If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Okay, let's get into talking about the actual what happens in the movie. I really liked, I know, I feel like every time we see public transportation in a movie, I got so excited. But I really like,

I feel like we've covered five trillion movies where it's like New York is kind of a character, but this movie, I think like LA is on is like really strutting its stuff in this one. It is so beautiful and so like well done. And I love that you sort of navigate the city with public transit, and I just really liked it. Yeah, hard agree. That is, again, something you don't see when you want,

except for the iconic film Speed, 1992. Could it have happened without the LA Metro? Certainly not. But yeah, I mean, there's so much this movie is doing as far as representation goes, as far as just like, again, powerful messaging. You know, it's a predominantly Latinx cast. I love that Spanish is spoken frequently

among the characters, because I feel like a lot of Hollywood executives would cite that as a thing like that will make this movie too inaccessible for a mainstream audience. But it's funny too, because you already had so many like, okay, like we had tons of Star Wars movies already at this time, and they're speaking all kinds of different made up alien languages like in those films. But Spanish is too much. That is too inaccessible. Right. Like, oh no, a language that most people in the U.S. speak to some degree. Can't have that. Not that. Meanwhile, Elvish is making a huge

comeback at this same time. All right, cause Lord of the Rings, Two Towers comes out the same year. There you go. I feel like the movie, sometimes I feel like a movie like Real Women Have Curves, especially at this time, is almost like a crossover situation, even though it's Mexican Americans, like in LA,

like her character ostensibly is like, you know, first or second generation, like Mexican American. And part of why I love the bus conversation and the travel conversation is because there's this crossover that happens in LA. It's this East Side West Side crossover. And you see them, she's crossing the bridge via bus and via her dad's pickup truck to go from her East Side neighborhood, pass through downtown to work, or to end up in Beverly Hills on the West Side for school or for the dad's job. And I think that's almost like

the story of the movie. It's like born here on the East side. She was taking meetings and she was on the West side Josefina, I'm sure a lot. Trying to get this movie made. And it's like a journey that I think like, if you're an LA local, like we joke about this, me and my co-host, Vyosa, cause we live, I live sort of in the mid city area, which is a little more West, but it's close to downtown.

And the US I lives sort of southeast. And our community is sort of here, west of La Brea and beyond. And we hear so many people like transplant saying, oh, LA, like I never go east of La Brea. Anything east of La Brea is the east side. Downtown is the east side. Silverlake is the east side. There's this disconnect in what what L.A. is. We've we've heard this so many times. So any time that we have to go to the West Side and leave our little enclaves,

it's a thing. It's a journey. It's oh, we're going to the West Side. You know, so I feel like Josefina was going to the West Side. And in this movie, they traveled to the West Side. It's like, I mean, yeah, for listeners who do not understand truly the grand trek that Anna was taking to get to school every day, I was trying to do the math in my head,

I'm like, that's at least an hour and a half if the bus comes on time. Because she transfers, she goes from Boyle Heights to Hollywood and Vine, from Hollywood and Vine to Beverly Hills like she's taking transfers which is yeah that's the bus is here look pro but we could use some more routes could use some more routes use some more frequency cuz yeah sometimes you're like why am I doing a yo-yo act to get somewhere that is objectively three miles from where I'm sitting?

Unclear look. Right. But I loved that the movie took that time to show you that journey, because it feels like it effortlessly communicates the class struggle that Anna is dealing with without having to bop you over the head with it. It's just an effortless part of the story. I love how you're just told visually.

And also when you see that kid Jimmy come to the East Side and clearly it sounds like he's one of the people you're talking about, Mala, where it's, he's like, what, what? There's a part where he's like, cause she knows him from school and he goes to school in Beverly Hills, so you can presume that he probably lives in Beverly Hills as well.

He's like Cher's little brother or something. Yes. Yeah, he's Elijah Wood's son. No, he's like, he's of the wood family for sure. Yes. Yeah. Summering with the wood family. He's like, I wanted to go to Europe with you. Things are just too easy here. You know, you're handed everything. You're handed school, you're handed a car. That's why I want to teach and

it's like, okay, you're saying this to Anna, who comes from a working class blue collar family where most of her family works in a clothing factory where their labor is for sure being exploited because they're assembling dresses for $18. To be sold at the Bloomingdale's that his family probably shops at. And Ana takes the bus. She's like, what are you talking about? I take the bus.

And he's like, we have buses here? Right. What I love about that scene is Anna doesn't say any of that. She just listens to him. And she's like, OK, sure, Jimmy. She doesn't have to. It's so fascinating to me. She doesn't feel compelled to tell him he's wrong

or that he has it easy or that her life is so hard. Well, here's what, she's on the bus, she doesn't have a car, it's not easy for her. And I always find those choices really fascinating of how much Ana is sharing with him or not. Because I think that in that sex scene that they have where he's like, I'll write you, I'll call you, and she's very kind of cold and says, no, for what?

She knows this guy is for the now, but he's not my future and he doesn't need to know all of me. And I think that's so interesting. Yeah and that's just like that just like felt so real to me and just it just shows how she is a very like multi-dimensional complex character where you know she has no qualms about challenging her mom, challenging her sister, you know challenging Mrs Mrs. Glass, the owner of the clothing manufacturer, like, but she isn't quite so challenging to some of the things that Jimmy says, because he says something like, and you know, we'll talk all about like, the body and fat shaming that she experiences, but he says something like,

you're not fat, you're beautiful. And you're as if those two things are mutually exclusive. Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. And she doesn't challenge that but it's just a much more different dynamic that she has with this kid. She's this like rich white kid she's just getting to know versus her mom who she's lived her entire life with and that just like felt like said you know we all kind of switch our behavior and based on who we're interacting with. And so that just felt very familiar, relatable, yeah.

Anna's just such a cool character where every time, I don't know, you can see even in that scene with Jimmy, I really like when she was like, we're not gonna have anything to talk about in three months, like, don't bother, blah, blah, blah, like, that was so cool. And then, but in the scene right after, you do see that there is some insecurity attached to her setting that boundary in that way,

where she's like, well, you're gonna have some skinny white girlfriend in a couple of months anyway, so why would I, the subject feeling, why would I emotionally invest in a couple of months anyways. So like, why would I, the subject feeling like, why would I emotionally invest in a Jimmy of the world? And here's my question. Jimmy says that he's got into teacher's college, which leads me to believe he's enrolling at Columbia University. She gets into Columbia University.

She ends up in New York. Is there a real women have curves sequel where she wears the red dress in New York and they reunite somehow? Oh, my God. Is that why there are loose ends? Well, this is becoming a what? Oh, my gosh. It's becoming a to all the boys I love before style Saga yes Yeah, a whole thing. I have to wonder it's it's not too late. Yes. It's 20 years later, but you know I'm still waiting for that red dress payoff. I'll be honest

Yeah, yeah, the other thing that I thought was interesting as it relates to the kind of class commentary is Mrs. Glass. So again, she's the owner of the dress manufacturing company that Estella is a contractor of and there's that scene where Estella she's like at first trying to write an email to her and Ana is like you got to go down and like talk to her you're never gonna get anywhere with an email. So Ana goes with her, ends up advocating pretty hard, far more than Estella can. But it's also like, more is at stake for Estella,

so you get why she's a bit intimidated by Mrs. Glass. But there's that moment where Mrs. Glass is like, I believe a woman like me should help a woman like you, but I can only help you so much. And basically tells her she has to pick herself up by her bootstraps because she, despite also being like a Latina woman

who, you know, like saw something in Estella and like that's why she wanted to help her out, but she's also a capitalist who is for sure exploiting Estella's labor. You hate to see it, but that shit also does happen. It does happen. Yeah. I find the Mrs. Glass character so fascinating because that character can be open to so many interpretations. Like we can create so many storylines behind her.

Like, is this like an Argentinian Latina with the last name Glass? Like, is she like a third gen like Mexican American who like went to like Harvard Business School? Like who is this woman? And how did why is she the way that she is, you know? And I love the tension there too with like you have Ana who like went to Beverly Hills High School and is college bound and is very kind of, she feels like she knows a lot of things, right?

And I feel like there's a lot of like power trips in this movie about what we know and what we don't know. So I think Ana feels like among her family, she knows more things than like her mom. And her mom feels like, well, a woman knows and a mother knows, and that's her favorite saying, you know, cause she's a mom, so she knows, and she's a married woman, so she knows. And Ana went to Beverly Hills High, so she saying, you know, because she's a mom, so she knows, and she's a married woman, so she knows.

And Ana went to Beverly Hills High, so she knows, you know? And so Ana thinks that she's about to help her sister out and, like, negotiate with this business lady. But Ana is way in over her head, and this lady is way out of her league. And Ana's actually doing more harm than good, and she thinks she's helping, you know? and so it's like, maybe there's a reason Estella has been kind of moving the way she's been moving

because maybe Estella knows something that Ana doesn't know. Right. And I love all of that, that kind of merry go round. I don't think in my, I think I was so caught up in the Ana of it all in my earlier viewings because it's like, that is, especially if you're a teen girl, you're plugging yourself into Ana, end of story.

I didn't think as much as I probably should have about Estella's character. And on prepping for this episode, I was kind of blown away by how much there is in Estella's character, even though, I mean, she's a main character but she doesn't like actually speak that much she doesn't take a ton of like action action or because it's so on a story and the relationship between

Anna and her mother is so focused on but I really love Estella and I don't think I like had the tools to understand what she was up against when I first saw this movie Because Anna is so headstrong and like pushes back on everything and in a way that it's like really cathartic and cool to see and And I think in my mind at the time I'm like, well, why doesn't Estella stand up for herself more and like not understanding? They're the dynamic there where even watching like how, like it's clear that 10 years prior, Estella was treated the way Ana's being treated now

by her mother, which is I feel like represented in that scene where their mom basically says like, well, it's too late for Estella, I'm gonna focus on Ana. And it seems like Estella has put so much energy and in like her life into pleasing her mom and doing what she thinks is the right thing and trying to like meet the bar that their mom is setting that no one can ever actually reach.

And then 10 years later be blamed for it. And she's still not the mom's favorite. Right, and then like 10 years later, she's still catching ship for it and her mom has given up on blamed for it. And she's still not the mom's favorite. Right, and then like 10 years later, she's still catching shit for it and her mom has given up on her for no reason. Even though Estella seems like she like is, I mean, I don't know enough about how a textile factory

is run to say this for sure, but it seems like Estella is kind of like doing the bulk of the day to day stuff. She's handling all the rent issues and the checks and like a lot of the high level stuff, but is like not appreciated by the powers that be certainly, but also doesn't seem, it seems like she's really undervalued by her own mom. And just like seeing how that, cause that does, I don't know, like being Estella's age and not Ana's now,

you're like that does wear on you. And of course, there's just like, Ana has the energy to fight every battle. And it's like, but that changes over time. And I just love Estella. And with Estella, I feel like Estella is underrated too, because if I knew somebody who had their own dress manufacturing business and was selling gowns to Bloomingdale's, like was filling orders constantly, that's a big fucking deal. Like that's an accomplished seamstress designer, like businesswoman, like that's nothing to sneeze at. She's being exploited. It is literally a sweatshop setting,

but it's impressive when we really break it down and think about what she's doing there. And I don't think that Ana sees that. She's literally phantom threading. Like, it's also, it's like further complicated by, so you can kind of imagine that Estella took up this business because that's what her mom did. Like Carmen says that she has been sewing for 38 years

and she started when she was like 13. So like you have Estella like taking in her mom, you know, like taking after her mom. What's the expression? Take something footsteps. Following? Following into, take something footsteps. Following? Following into her mother's footsteps. I was like, why can't I put this sentence together?

It's 900 degrees is why. So she's following in her mom's footsteps, possibly to impress her mom, possibly because that's the skill her mom taught her, you know, there could be any number of reasons, and was able to open up her own factory, which I think maybe it seems to be implied that like that's something that Carmen

didn't have the opportunity or the money that you need to start your own business, but it's something that Estella was able to do. And so she started her own business and now she employs her mom. So she's her mom's boss. And then her mom mentions how from decades of sewing she's become arthritic, she can't see very well, and she's not actually able to work very well because this hard labor has really worn on her over the years,

but she's ashamed by that and is not really communicating that to Estella, but she tells it to Ana and it's just like, there's like so many, such an interesting and complicated family dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of layers and it's like, you have this situation where like the mother and the sister have dignity in their work

Even though it's not ideal because that is such a step like she's a business owner She is doing deals with Bloomingdale's and they're they have this team. They're employing people, right? there's this scene where Carmen and Ana's father they're talking to each other and the father is saying she can learn a lot at Columbia. Like she's accepted, she got a scholarship, she can go get educated. And her mother says, I can educate her, I can teach her how to sew,

I can teach her how to take care of children, I can teach her how to keep a house, she doesn't do laundry, she's my greatest disappointment. You know, she doesn't listen to me. And you know, it's interesting because I think there's a piece there where the mom and the sister are like, we like our lives and we are doing work and we are supporting ourselves.

And this is a dignified life that's also worth living. And so there's this divide there where she's very young and she's pushing back on it and she's poo pooing it, but it's what's allowed, also allowed her to go to Beverly Hills High School, you know, and she's had that familial support. So there's that push and pull there where like in their heart of hearts, they want more for her, but they know that like, this is their world

and for her to step out of it, what does that mean about their world and them and all of that? I mean, it's like, and again, that whole message is conveyed in a single scene, which is wild, like the scene when Mr. Guzman comes back to the house. And I know that this like that she's wrong for this,

but it did always make me laugh every time Carmen saw Mr. Guzman coming and she's like, who is that, let's get him out of here. Like, slamming the door in George Lopez's face. Who's this man, this man looking for Ana? Yeah, you're like, that's her teacher. But yeah, like that whole class tension of like, and I feel like you see it a little bit

in Astella's character as well, where it's not like Mr. Guzman is trying to say like one thing is more valuable than the other, but I think like his perspective is like, well, you sent her to this like bougie high school, do you want her to have access to what the bougie high school was supposed to have gotten her access to?

And then from where Carmen and Estella are sitting and from where the whole family is sitting, it makes total sense to be like, well, why are you telling us that the life that we have isn't enough? Like it feels like Ana is the only person in the room at any given time who understands that and like understands both sides of it and we don't I guess we don't know miss enough about mr.

Guzman's background maybe he does understand this tension and his power is just kind of very limited in this situation because you're totally right Mala like it's so wild the way that Estella is treated and like the circumstances she has to work under because she's also I liked that you have that detail she's a brilliant designer and like I hope that you know in the inevitable you know real women have curves to return of the red dress. The reboot. She has an extremely curvy movie. Yeah yeah she has like her own like fashion house

or like something like that where like she's so talented but it's like. She's got an IG boutique. Right, exactly. It is like doing expensive custom red carpet looks. Yes. For America Ferrera question mark. And then the movie explodes but I thought it was interesting how like there's those moments with Estella the moments I liked

most between Ana and Estella were when Estella I think would sometimes internalize how various systems were failing her and her business as individual failures, which is how the systems want you to feel. And I feel like, even though the Mrs. Glass thing did not pan out and that was kind of naive on Anna's part to think you could just march in and change a girl boss's mind. Right.

But like Estella, it seems like had internalized you could just march in and change a girl boss's mind. Right. But like Estella, it seems like had internalized a lot of shame about it. And like she wasn't able to talk to people about it. And you would imagine if she went to Carmen about it, Carmen would give her shit about it. Cause that is very inherent to how Carmen treats her daughters. And just like watching Estella, this like brilliant business owner

who should be you know in Milan or whatever like having to internalize this bullshit is it's I don't know it's like pretty subtle in the way that it's like telegraphed in the movie but it I just I don't know it just felt like this whole other element to what's going on in her life that I didn't take a lot of note on because I was America for her and just didn't understand the world as well. Yeah, absolutely. And yet there's still so much to love about honest character too where like, so we've been kind of dancing around the mother daughter relationship throughout the entire discussion. So let's just get into it. It's a complicated relationship.

It's clear that Carmen very much loves and cares for her daughter and is coming from a place where she thinks what she's doing, what she's saying is what's best for her daughter. She's not really doing anything out of like spite or malice. It's just this is what she knows and she's trying to pass it along to her daughter and it's what she thinks is best for Anna. This often manifests as Carmen policing Anna's body in two pretty major ways. One is her size and the other is her sexuality. And this is obviously informed by Carmen's religious beliefs and her kind of cultural, like, you know, yes, she is reinforcing a lot of patriarchal standards that were pretty par for the course for her generation,

her culture. Anna is from a younger, more progressive generation. She grew up in a different country and culture from her parents. And this has kind of empowered her to push back against like her mom's ideology, because we constantly see that kind of tug of war of Carmen either fat shaming or slut shaming Ana,

and then Ana challenging it. Absolutely. So again, we have like Carmen constantly making comments about Anna's weight, her size. She says things like, you know, you would look beautiful if you lost weight and constant comments about her body. And then you have Anna again, constantly challenging this and pushing

back and saying things like, well, I happen to like myself. And yeah, maybe I do want to lose weight, but part of me doesn't because my weight says to everybody, fuck you. And she says, you know, how dare anybody try to tell me what I should look like or what I should be when there's so much more to me than just my weight. And that's such a wonderful thing to be in a movie that is targeted to, I mean, everyone should watch this movie, but it's like targeted to probably a younger audience, you know, teens, tweens. So you have like this young character who's like advocating for herself and pushing back against this like harmful ideology of fat shaming and body shaming. I've been watching Dance Moms and Abby Lee Miller has sort of helped me to better understand Carmen's character because...

Interesting! Whoa! Yes, because Abby Lee is known for her harsh words and teaching tactics with her students, but her students also win, like they sweep, right? And so Abby Lee at one of her competitions was like, listen, I tell you the harsh truth in rehearsal because I don't want to put you on a stage and parents and other coaches are saying nasty things

about your technique and your unpointed feet in the audience and you're getting dinged. I'm saying it so you fix it and other people are not saying it and humiliating you. And I feel like there are some older women and I know for a fact Latina mothers, cause my mother kind of is of this sort of mindset sometimes like, well I'm your mother

and if I don't tell you, who's gonna tell you? And I feel like Carmen has this sort of very, like she likes to tell cautionary tales. Like if you don't listen to your mother, this is what's gonna happen to you. I'm telling you because I'm your mother. Like there's that one scene where they're watching that novella

and I love this title, Los Pobres Lloran Mas. And the girl like, it doesn't listen to her mom and gets decapitated in the process, trying to run off with some guy. God, that's so good. And Carmen is like, that's what happens. That's what happens when you don't listen to your mother. A mother knows the right man for her daughter, you know?

So it's like, for me, that's who Carmen is. Meanwhile, like, poor Ana's trying to write her college essay at the table. She's like, stop. The decapitation comes up like mid essay writing. Yeah. Oh, it's perfect. And then there's also this undercurrent throughout the movie that these women in the factory

are making dresses that they can't fit into because glamorous clothing is often not manufactured for larger bodies because you have Pancha saying talking about a dress that Estella is designing and she says something like yeah I would definitely wear that if it would fit me parentheses it would in or like you I couldn't probably find a dress that would fit me like this But that's why in real women have curves to Estella is the most famous Inclusive designer in the entire world like this exactly she's styling Liz. Oh, yes. She's Yeah, it's the script writes itself. Honestly, yeah, we don't we don't need love this time Yeah, look don't need LeVu this time. Yeah, get him out of there. Yeah.

LeBoo, more like it. More like LePoo. Wow. Caitlyn, that was too far. No, I'm kidding. Oh. And then that's really sweet scene where you see Estella giving the dress that she made for Anna.

And she says like, I cut this specifically for your body and says like, pretty dresses aren't just for skinny girls. And it's just such a beautiful little like button on that through line of the movie. The dresses are such a double, a triple whammy cause it's like, it costs these women money to make these dresses Practically like not only can they not fit in the dresses they're making but they can't afford the dresses They're making because they cost six hundred dollars and the constant throughout the film is I don't think we ever see the women really

Get paid, you know until the very end they reimburse the dad because of the loan Right the the landlord is coming because she's late on rent. Like the dress is actually even just to work is like costing them. And it's wild to see. It made me so sad, like it made me I felt like a moment of like frustration with Estella. I was like, oh, but then it's like, but she's being put in an impossible position. It's just and and I feel like it the movie I

guess in that moment did kind of telegraph clearly why Estella feels like this is all her fault because she's the one that has to tell her employees I can't pay you even though you're doing really really hard work like all the time and I won't turn a fan on because of dust. Like it's, of course she feels terrible, but it's like, but yeah, I don't know. This viewing I was Estella Pilt. That's one. And the thing about the movie too is like,

ah, there's so much, so many questions because Ana goes off to New York, she's strutting her stuff. But remember like Estella stayed behind cause she had to go to the she's shredding her stuff. But remember, like, Estella stayed behind because she had to go to the factory. Like, the factory continues. The debt is still there. Like, the turnover, that's all still, that's still going on while Ana's in New York. Right. At least Estella gets her own bedroom now because they were sharing a bedroom. So true. She deserves, she deserves.

Yeah, she deserves, I mean, she deserves her own place. Like, I wanted to get back to mom a little bit as well, cause I really do think it's like, it's such a tricky role. I feel like it is such a testament to Lupe Ontiveros for making Carmen a lovable character. And like, because I feel like on paper, it's tough. The things she says to her daughters can be so cutting and awful.

And the fact that she is able to get across, like, I do believe that she loves her daughters. But there's all these layers of, and I know that there's so many. Oh, there's another fire layers of, and I know that there's so many, oh, there's another fire. Um, oh no. I know there's so many layers of what Carmen is kind of projecting onto her daughters. It's a lot of cultural values that she grew up with. It's a generational value.

It's internalized shame being projected back onto her kids. And there was an element of it, the closest I could get to relating to outside of just being body shamed by female relatives, which happened in my family brutally and all the time. But it almost felt like there is this part of Carmen that wants her daughters to suffer in the same exact ways she did and like to not suffer in those. It almost reminds me of like when, like with this whole student

loan forgiveness debate where people are like, well, I had to be in extreme debt for 20 years. So my kids should too. And it's like, no, that doesn't don't know what no, yeah, but but on a human level you can understand how You know She I mean Carmen has had to deal with shit her entire life and she was raised a very particular way and you understand how she got to where she is in the way she views the world and Also be like but you have to let your daughters, you know, you've got to want more for your kids. You've got to want them to be able to go their own way. And it's such a difficult relationship to see play out because you, you, I don't know, you feel so much for

everybody, but sometimes you just want to be like, Carmen, come on. Yeah. There's, there's a piece too, where it like, Carmen, she is harsh and she can be mean. There's this really interesting layer there though, where it's like, sometimes like Mexican families do speak that way to each other and it can come off as harsh and mean, but it's not unbelievable and it's not unrealistic. And I feel like sometimes like,

oh, it's almost like you actually can't body shame like a Latina because our families have already been doing it for years. Like we've been hearing this stuff for our whole lives. Like people speak about our bodies in very public and specific terms. Like your body part isn't just the body part. It becomes like a stand in for your whole identity. Like we have words just to refer to you in relation to a body part. Like if you have a big butt, you don't just have a big butt.

You are a Nalgona. Like that can be your nickname. Like if you have big chichis, you can be a chichona. Like that's your nickname. That's your title. You know, gordita, she calls her throughout. This is and I love the caption, the translation, because she goes, this is my gordita right here. And it's, this is my fatty right here, right? My butterball, butterball, also in the captions.

But these are actual terms that people actually call girls and women, like IRL. And so is it uncomfortable? Yeah. Are they sometimes terms of endearment? Yeah. Are they sometimes terms of endearment? Yeah. Are they sometimes kind of cutesy names? Yeah.

But can they also be used to cut? Also, yes. So there is also that sort of very subtle line that I love that Josefina plays with with her writing. Yeah. And it works so well. And then, again, the other thing that Carmen tends to do with Ana, it mostly, well part, so it's like,

Carmen has this idea that a woman has to save herself, quote unquote, till marriage. She can't have sex until she's married, and it's also her duty to get married and start raising a family and to take care of that family and to take care of her husband. And she wants Ana to get married as soon as possible. And you know, she has that little, the figurine of, of San, I forget which Saint it is. Antonio, St. Anthony, I think.

So you know, she's holding out, she's like, and she's like, I've lost hope that Estella will get married. But now, so now I have to really focus on this future for Ana. So that's kind of where she's coming from as far as like Ana's like sexuality and like her expectations of what Ana is going to do with like starting a family and that kind of stuff. Ana does not buy into this. She's just like, I'm gonna like start dating this kid, Jimmy, for the summer.

She wants to have sex with him. She tells him, you know, I feel ready. She has sex on her terms, which I think is an amazing thing to show on screen of like, you know, a young woman feeling ready to have sex for the first time, expresses. And the condom scene. Condom, yeah.

She buys a condom. Everything is on her terms, you know, she gives consent. Like this is all like, loved it to see on screen. That actual sex scene when, you know, she's like, she turns the lights back on, she's like, I want you to see my body. This is what I look like. That whole thing I thought was handled so beautifully.

And I don't think it's like an act of protest against her mom's ideology, but it's just like what she wants to do. And it's like what she's doing despite it not wanting what her mother wants for her. And Ana pushes back on this and says, why is a woman's virginity the only thing that matters? A woman has thoughts, ideas, a mind of her own.

And so Ana is constantly advocating for, I'm more than my weight, I'm more than my size, I'm more than my virginity. And it's just like a feminist icon, 18 year old Ana. And America for Error performs the hell out of those speeches I like it's So good. Yeah, I really and I liked that. I feel like a lesser movie I don't know like this is such a case study for like Women like writing and directing stories about women

Especially with the amount of specificity that Josefina Lopez does, it just works. It's amazing. I felt like a lesser story would have... Because I was just like, okay, other teen movie analogs you see that in a lesser movie and a lesser story, Ana would have been like, oh, this boy thinks I'm beautiful, so I'm in love with him now and like all this stuff but she like is very in charge of her sexuality she's I loved that they went out of the way to be like and she made sure that she was safe she protected herself because who knows what's going on with this kid Jimmy but also doesn't know how condoms work which is very true of 17 year olds condoms work which is very true of 17 year olds and that when she was done she was like you know I don't want this to be a relationship I feel like teen

movies so often put young women in the situation of like the first boy that is nice to me or finds me attractive or like sees me for who I like the whatever walking down the stairs moment what's that movie that I hate? She's all that. Yes. Like the first boy that sees me for who I really am is the love of my life and blah, blah, blah. And Ana's like, I live in the real world. I don't wanna keep seeing you.

And like, it's just such a, that happens nowhere. Like it was just so cool to see her take charge of everything. Yeah, I love too that the movie manages to be very dramatic, hilarious, hilarious, but also very dramatic. And nothing that dramatic happens plot wise. Like she graduates high school, dates a boy

and goes to college, you know, like, and like works with her family for the summer. Like, it feels so cinematic, though, you know, very wholesome. But there's it's so cinematic. And that's for me is the, you know, she doesn't get pregnant. She doesn't go to jail. No one dies of an overdose. Like there's no stabbings, like, but drama.

And that's the brilliance of the movie and the writing. Like, that's the storytelling because of the movie and the writing. Like that's the storytelling, because you're captivated and you're like feeling feelings and going through it with her. And I feel like that is the drama of teen angst. That's how heightened it can be. She's just being a teen girl going the fuck through it and clashing with her mom.

The movie doesn't take any shortcuts when it comes to like, this is a dramatic story, so someone has to die. Or you know, like it's just like, life is dramatic. Yeah. And hilarious. Yeah. And the movie balances both very well.

It's so good. Yeah. It's chef's kiss. Molly, you said it perfectly where you're like, yeah, like teen girl life is Everything feels like a movie. Yeah Everything teen angst angst. And so this is I think just in that vein. Yeah teen girls, you know Struggle in the trench. They're in the trenches 24-7. It's truly If you're a teen girl listening, I salute you. It does get better.

Eventually. Eventually. Eventually. Just hold on. Another thing that I feel like I just was so impressed and like blown away by the writing of like, there's no character, however small that you don't have some level of investment in because the script goes out of its way to like, you know at least something about every woman who works with Estella. You get to know them over the course of the movie. Even in a less thoughtfully written movie, it would just be like, background seamstress

number four, but that role like doesn't exist. You learn everyone's name, you learn a little bit about them, or at least get a taste of their personality. And I feel like that just makes the payoff of this like, it could have been a like I am Spartacus moment where you're like this is kind of cool, but who are these people? But it's like you know who these women are and you already have gotten to know like a little bit of their history and their relationship with their co-workers throughout the movie. And so it feels like, oh I'm in a room full of women whose lives I know something about. And now they're finally comfortable talking about their bodies and their insecurities and their like everything and it just felt so

yeah like the attention to detail is is so awesome. Absolutely. What else what else we got going on? Sorry I feel like I just blacked out for a second because I inhaled. It's so hot. Some hot air. So hot. Some hot air. Some cold air. Yeah. I want to share one last quote from the creator of this property, Josefina Lopez.

So the play seems to be a bit more focused on a character being undocumented for some portion of her life and the anxiety about being undocumented and being deported and that is a focus on the play that is eliminated from the movie. So this quote this quote is a little bit about Josefina talking about being undocumented just to put that into context but Josefina talking about being undocumented, just to put that into context. But Josefina says, quote, I was undocumented for 13 years, I wanted to write a play to affirm my humanity, because I felt so dehumanized being undocumented. I've always had issues with my weight. And one of my teachers told me not in a mean way. She thought I was a great actress, that I

had the ability to play Juliet in Lady Macbeth, but no one was going to cast me as the ingenue if I didn't lose weight, because only thin girls get the lead. Men write roles and direct the movies, so I had to adhere to those standards. Otherwise, I'd always play the side character. I thought, okay, if I lose the weight, then I'm going to be told by casting people that I should change my name to a white name, change my hair color. If I do this I'm going to have to give up who I am to be an actress. I refused to do that. The problem isn't that I'm undocumented, Mexican, working class, or overweight. The problem is society." And that sentiment feels like it comes through

in this movie very well and that that's like the core of what so much of this movie is about and it's just such a positive thing for that to be out in the world. Hell yeah. That's such a nice quote. She's so cool. The last thing I had, this is not a criticism, it was just something that I, it's something we've talked about on the show before and so I wanted to

sort of see what y'all felt about it. I really love that this movie puts mother-daughter relationships front and center and gives them precedence. We get a few scenes with their father who seems to be a very nice, affable kind of guy. Yeah, real nice guy. Right. But as is their grandfather. I just feel like, I don't know. I don't even think that I would want anything to be changed. I just think that there are moments in movies that center around mothers and daughters where it's like the dad is always like the quote unquote nicer guy. It just felt like a little, I was like, okay, so dad.

When dads are mean, they're scary. Like we're getting into scary territory with mean dad. Right. we're gonna get to scary territory with Mean Dad. Right, so it's like all the kind of baggage is rolled into Carmen and it just like, I don't know. I mean, I didn't really feel strongly about it. I just always feel like I notice when, there's a lot of movies where it's like, the dad is quote unquote the nice parent.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say that yes, and that certainly is a trope that we've discussed to a large extent on the show but I think it all depends on how the movie approaches it and how the movie actually handles it. In this movie it didn't feel tropey, it didn't feel like it was leaning into stereotypes about a mom being... Right. What is the word I'm searching for? Because she's like so, I mean, Carmen is so like contextualized and well written and like, you understand why she reacts the way she does. Right.

There's all these shows, like there's like, I think of like the mom on like Malcolm in the Middle, then there's like, Everybody Loves Raymond, Debra, and I love all these characters, all these women. What's the other one? But there's a bunch, right? Like where like the mom is, oh, my wife and kids. The dad is like funny goofball. And then the mom's kind of a bitch, kind of strict, always yelling, high strung.

Like he's always doing stupid things to stress her out. And I feel like in this film, like Carmen is like an anti hero. Yeah, yeah. We can't stand her and she sometimes because of the things she says, but we still love her. And I also feel like I love that Anna's character is allowed to be kind of a brat. Like Carmen's kind of a bitch and Anna's kind of a brat. And as much as they insist that they are different,

the more we see their similarities. And I feel like it's so interesting the way she pits them against each other, but it's like, oh, we're learning more about each one of them because they're the same person, you know? It is like another thing where it's like, I want to see, man, I feel like we're making a strong case for a sequel. I want to see what this relationship between them

looks like 20 years down the line. Like, because I do understand like, her parent, I mean, there's so much anxiety around on leaving to go to college, especially across the country. And I feel like there's a subtext to like, she's gonna change, she's gonna like, not be the girl that we raised and like the shall lose touch with who she is if she leaves and I would love to see that relationship examined 20 years down. Oh

Yes, my last observation is so there is another movie about like a young woman who's just graduated from high school, who lives in California and has a difficult relationship with her mother. She dates a boy and has sex for the first time. And then she goes off to college across the country.

I also think in New York City, and that movie is Lady Bird. There's a lot of parallels here. Interesting. And Lady Bird's kind of a brat. Yeah. And like a lot of body stuff with the mom as well. Body stuff.

You know, there's class commentary in that movie as well. Very similar movies. I would say if you like Lady Bird, for sure check out Real Women Have Curves. If you haven't seen it, I think that Real Women Have Curves does it better haven't seen it, I think that Real Women Have Curves does it better. I find it to be a more compelling movie.

15 years earlier. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wow, I didn't make that connection. Yeah, totally. So yeah, if you liked Lady Bird, definitely check out Real Women Have Curves if you haven't seen it. Sorry, I got caught up in my own horrible Lady Bird joke,

which is instead of that boy Jimmy, Lady Bird has that boy Timmy. Timmy Chalamet. Timmy Chalamet? Yes, Timmy Chalamet, most hilarious joke of all time. Ha ha ha ha. And on that, no, there's actually no good way to transition this, but.

I mean, talking about Timothy Chalamet, I do think passes the Bechtel test if that's where you were going. I don't know. What is he like? You know, like this. Can we really vouch for him? I feel like it's still kind of a mystery.

It alludes me. But you know, it doesn't allude me whether this movie passes the Bechtel test or not. Yes, we did it. This movie super passes the Bechtel test or not. Yes, we did it, woo! This movie super passes the Bechdel test. It's barely even worth discussing because it passes between almost any pairing of characters that aren't men.

I, like we discussed before, this movie does, takes a lot of care to give every character in the movie, particularly the women, a name and some information about them. So really any interaction happening at the factory that isn't explicitly about marriage passes the Bechdel test. They're talking about their bodies, they're talking about school, they're talking about work, they're talking about deadlines, they're talking about taxes, they're talking about... they're just, you know, dare I say it, being full on people and characters.

The whole damn movie. Yup. And as we also touched on in the episode, this movie has just so much focus on the female characters and the relationships between female characters. And while there are, you know, there's a dad, there's the grandpa, there's a couple male cousins. Those characters are like pretty secondary or tertiary and it's really so much of a focus on the women and their relationships.

So. Still depicted with love. It's not like they're like left by the voice of, but like, but you know, like, but yes, it is a women's movie and, you know, women that we don't usually get focused on, women who are working class, women who are immigrants, women who are people of color and Latinx specifically.

So it's just, this movie is doing so much that no other movie of its time is doing, and still most movies now are not doing. So with that in mind, another perfect transition is coming. Do you mean the nipple scale? Yes, the only perfect metric. And it is of course a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining the movie

through an intersectional feminist lens. So. You know, given all possible factors to consider, every potential factor one might consider with regards to this movie and this rating, I would give it a four. Hell yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, I would go like four, four and a half.

It's cool. I was really happy to see like, especially, I mean, just the fact that like women wrote and directed and produced this and like, yeah, most of them are women of color like that. I feel like, I mean, yeah, still unheard of now. And it's still and it's a classic. Like you can't. Yeah. It's I feel like real women have curves kind of yet to be topped except by real women have curves to Coming out next year. Yes pending and then and then we also You know bequeath you the power to gift your four nipples to any character person actor production person of your choice you can distribute in pairs or not, you know, like kind of

Get creative with it. Oh, this is so difficult. Cause I want to give two each to just America and Lupe, you know, just split them up half and half. But I also want to give Josefina two, but I only have four. You know what? I'm gonna give Lupe Antiveros two because she passed away, RIP.

I'm gonna give Josefina Lopez two because she wrote it. She's an icon. And I'm gonna give America Ferrera one because she's the youngest and I think is still working on icon status. That's how we'll do it. I think that that was very judicious of you. That was very diplomatic. Thank you.

I'm going to go four and a half and I'm gonna docket the half nipple just for making America for her uncomfortable when she was 17. She is a living legend and a child and I'm gonna put that one on Lovue. No nipples for Lovue for me. Zero. But outside of that, I think this movie is so fucking awesome

and it, I mean, it was doing so many things no other movies were doing. Josefina Lopez is an incredible writer. And I just love every element of this movie, and I'm now an Estella stan for life. Hell yeah. So I'll give one nipple to Ana, one to Estella. I'll give the half to Carmen Carmen because she's doing her best. And I have love for her.

But leave Ana and Estella alone. I'll give one to Pancha. I loved Pancha. I feel like super underrated character. And I will give one to, I should give one to Josefina Lopez, but I'm going to give it to Josefina Lopez playing the manager of the burger joint because that is acting. Scene stealer, scene stealer. Exactly.

Where was major Oscar snub that year? Oh, and then the last thing I wanted to say was, I guess as of last year, there's a musical being written around this. So hopefully people are listening to this episode from the future and just saw Real Women Have Curves on Broadway. I feel like this would be such a good musical. Hell yeah. I love musicals and I love musical adaptations

that aren't already Disney movies. So this seems like something I would love. Caitlin, what is your rating for this flim? Ooh, this flim gets, I would say four and a half. I was gonna give it a five before I knew about the sketchy things that were happening, especially in that one particular scene where America Ferrera expressed discomfort

and then they deceived her with like yucky. But aside from that, this is such a wonderful movie. Again, a focus on women, women's stories, women's relationships, positive Latinx representation that we so rarely see in cinema, that we so rarely see in cinema, especially in this era, messages of body positivity, of sex positivity, a focus on a working class family in Los Angeles, a side of Los Angeles that we don't tend to see or that tends to be demonized in most media.

Multi-generational, which I feel like we haven't like, explicitly, but like, there's just, there's so much. And so much is accomplished, so effortlessly, so effortlessly, oh my gosh, I'm so bad at that word. I feel like everyone has those words. It takes a lot of effort for me to say effortlessly. Wow. There we go.

Makes you think. So much is accomplished in a movie that is less than an hour and a half. Which we were texting about, every movie should be less than an hour and a half long. If this movie can do what it does in an hour and a half, what's your excuse? I was about to say something flippant, annoying.

What's your excuse, Titanic? Okay, now that's straight up sl's the one exception yeah i know i know i know i know i'm so sorry everyone who are you giving your nipples to um i'm going to give my nipples to one to america ferreira one to lupe antevarros one to ingrid olyu who plays estella i'll give one to the women who work in the clothing factory and then my half nipple, I will give to Los Angeles Public Transportation. Because it means. It's called the Metro Prius owner.

Wow, told on yourself. But I mean, generically. Told on yourself. Generically, it is public transportation. It is. And I do take it sometimes. Brave. Bravely.

Occasional redline user. Wow, I love to bully people who don't use enough public transportation. But that said, you drove me to the beach yesterday, so it makes you think. It does. It does indeed. Right. So that is real think it does. It does indeed. Right. So that is Real Women Have Curves. Mala, thank you so much for being here. And yeah, where can we find you online? Plug away.

Yes. So I am on all social platforms at mala underscore Munoz. M-U-N-O-Z is the last name. score Munoz M-U-N-O-Z is the last name. And you can listen to I have two podcasts out. One is called Locatora Radio, which is the flagship podcast that I co-host with my co-producer, Dioza. And then my solo show, Marihuanera, a podcast for podheads. And we're on Apple, Apple podcast, Spotify, all the usual places. Hell yeah. Also your standup fucking rules.

Thank you so much. Yes, and then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our matriot at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, which gives you two bonus episodes every month along with access to the back catalog of over 100 bonus episodes all bangers and that is all for five dollars a month oh can you imagine can you imagine barely it's actually sometimes i do reflect on the value and just i'm like wow what, what a deal, what a steal.

Where are we? Okay, you can also get our merch at teapublic.com slash the Bechdel cast if you are so inclined. And with that, I mean, I think we should mention we've been shirtless with the last half of the episode. I mean, am I gonna put my clothes back on? We'll see. Carmen, deal with it.

All right, bye. Bye-bye. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked

by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is absolute season one, Taser Inc. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Inc. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and badder than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms.

But not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms. But not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday.

On the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast. This is an iHeart Podcast.