The Bechdel Cast - Rosemary's Baby with Jessica Harper

Episode Date: April 4, 2019

Jamie Loftus and Caitlin Durante invite special guest Jessica Harper to join their really nice and peaceful coven, whose main objective is to unpack the movie Rosemary's Baby.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @jessicaharperama on Instagram.  You should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer,

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I sound like a cat. I sound sick. Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast. Is that scary enough? Too scary? That's pretty creepy. Maybe too young. I sound like a baby.

Oh, well. Speaking of babies, that's relevant. Hey, good transition. Anyway. This is the Bechdelcast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And this is the Bechdel cast my name is Jamie Loftus my name is Caitlin Durante and this is the Bechdel cast la la la la la la la we're talking about la la land just kidding no I'm not ready to talk about la la land I will never be ready to talk about la la land not today the movie we are talking about though is Rosemary's Baby and

we'll jump into that in a moment. Before that, we'll just give you a quick overview of what the show is. We talk about the portrayal and representation and treatment of women in movies. We use the Bechdel test as a course a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires that two female identifying characters they must have names they must speak to each other in the story that they're in and that conversation cannot be about men right then for us it's just like a two-line exchange let's let's demonstrate it all righty hey caitlin hey jamie how'd you really feel about the la la laws that i was serving i felt that um i have some notes okay okay i'm ready to receive um i think just like keep practicing

and you'll see improvement okay that makes sense makes sense. Yes, you're welcome. Thank you so much. That was a really compelling, I think that's maybe our most compelling, like there was some tension because I'm not good at receiving criticism. There was a lot going on. Sure, it was a very rich conversation. It was good, it was good. We're good at this.

Okay, Rosemary's Baby. We should introduce our guest before we go any further. I'm so thrilled that she's here. Yes, me too. She is an actor. You know her from many films, including both Suspiria films, as well as My Favorite Year. And she has a new podcast.

It's a 10-episode memoir of her childhood called Winnetka. It is Jessica Harper. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. We're so happy to have you. We're excited to be here. Thanks.

And we're talking about Rosemary's Baby. I love this. It's so fun. So tell us your history, your relationship with this movie. I first saw it, I think, when it came out, which was... 68? Oh, my gosh. This dates me.

I was a fully grown person in 1968. And I was trying to remember yesterday. How did I react? And my reaction to it now, of course, having rewatched it yesterday, which was so much fun. But my reaction to it, I believe, was so different to what it was. Because in 68, pre-feminism, you'd have a very different take on this movie. So in 68, when I first saw it, I was just simply horrified.

Sure. And yesterday I was horrified with a whole lot of interesting side notes. Yes. Which I'm sure we'll get into. Indeed. But it's a fabulous movie. It is a well-crafted movie. Really well-crafted.

Yeah. So well-written. The direction is incredible, even though there are some people who might not like the director anymore. Well, we'll talk about that as well. There'll be some strong cases. Yeah. My history is I saw it for the first time in college as a young film buff. And so that was probably around 14 years ago. And I think I only saw it that once before revisiting it for the podcast.

But I remember thinking I remember really liking it because as far as horror films go, I'm not such a huge fan of slashers. But I love anything that has to do with the occult and like kind of like satanic stuff. I don't know why I never revisited it. But yeah, I just I really enjoyed it. But it was just that one time that I had seen it. What about you, Jamie? I had not seen this movie before. It's and it's like one of those movies that has been, you know, recommended to this show and to me specifically for years but I think it just I think by the time I was aware of this movie I was also aware of all the Polanski stuff and I kind of avoided it for that reason which is like I mean it's so it's so weird because going into this movie I was almost like I kind of

hope I don't like it because then it will be a lot easier to have the, I mean, it's always easy to have an art artist discussion if you don't like the art anyways. Right. And you're like, oh, well, it sucks. And he sucks. Usually he sucks. And so put it all in the trash. But it was like, I mean,

this was like a challenging watch in a lot of ways because I did, there's a lot about this movie to love. I had been avoiding it because I was aware of all of the allegations before. And so I just, I don't know. I mean, I just try to navigate around. There's a million movies. You can watch anything. But yeah, I enjoyed it.

And I feel weird. I know. I have such complicated feelings. Usually, before we even start the episode i have a fairly good idea of like what nipple rating i'm gonna give it i have no idea like i think it's gonna take like whatever discussion we have to we're gonna have to unpack we're gonna have to dig really deep girls because i just i feel very conflicted and challenged by this movie and this is yeah and it's a lot i mean and jessica you were starting to get at it. I think that there's so much context to this movie that's important to how you interpret it.

And it's like, I can't imagine seeing this movie 10 years ago. Yeah, because when I saw it for the first time, if anyone was talking about Roman Plansky and his horrific crimes, I wasn't aware of it. I didn't really know. It was years later until I started hearing things about that. What year was the—that was much, much later. I was just going to say the Sharon Tate murders and all. No, it's the year after. The Sharon Tate murders are 69.

Yeah. Okay, so the big sympathy for Roman hadn't really kicked in yet when this came out, if you know what I mean. Right, right. There was a whole big poor Roman era. Right, right. And then it became, fuck Rome. Yeah, that morphed into something entirely new much later. Yeah, Tate murders were in 1969.

And then his allegations start, I think, in the late 70s that sounds right and then he is still technically I don't know what the word is for what he is he can't come back to this country no without getting arrested no because he admitted that yeah he committed oh and we'll talk about there's so much so many okay so without much further ado I'll get through the recap as quickly as possible and feel free to weigh in at any point in the recap

because this movie's crazy it's crazy and it's long yeah okay so we are introduced to a married couple Rosemary that's Mia Farrow's character and Guy that's John Cassavetes

John Cassavetes hot so hot so hot it's like oh my god it's upsetting I know it is upsetting That's John Cassavetes. John Cassavetes. Hot. So hot. So hot. Oh, my God. It's upsetting. I know it is upsetting. I mainly learned about him.

Son of a bitch. I know. It's like, how long did it take? Okay, we'll get into this. How long did it take him to sell that first baby to the devil? Like 20 seconds. Like so fast. Yeah.

Okay. We're getting ahead of ourselves. I mainly knew about John Cassavetes through like film school, like textbook stuff and all of his directorial work. And then I was like, wait, no one told me he was hot. Unfortunately, he is hot. He's so hot. Okay.

Yeah. So they're looking for an apartment together to move into in New York City. Ever heard of it? They're looking at an apartment together to move into in New York City. Ever heard of it? They're looking at this one giant apartment. I don't know how they end up affording it because he is a struggling actor and she is a homemaker. Like who can live in the Dakota? It's the Dakota. Right, which is like overlooking Central Park and stuff.

So it's this like enormous apartment. Iconic. They can afford it somehow even before they get mixed up with it. Yeah, there was a little suspension of disbelief there. Yeah. So it's this like enormous apartment. Iconic. They can afford it somehow, even before they get mixed up with it. Yeah, there was a little suspension of disbelief there. Right. Maybe just rent on a haunted apartment is really low. Maybe. So one of the first things I noticed about this apartment is that there is a closet that's blocked by a large piece of furniture.

And that'll become important later believe it or not and rosemary notices too yes she's she's so active in the movie i was always i was so ready to be like polanski she's so okay yeah so then a friend of theirs hutch uh tells them that this building that they're moving into called the bramford had a bunch of weird shit happen in it. There were sisters who cooked and ate children. There was a guy who practiced witchcraft and who claimed to have conjured up the devil there. So they're like, whatever, we'll move in anyway. It happens every time you move somewhere.

It's like every place has its detriment. Everybody has some child eaters in it, every building. So they move in, and then Rosemary meets one of her neighbors, Terry, and one night. Poor Terry. Poor Terry. Poor Terry. Yeah. They have this great, spoiler alert, Bechdel test passing exchange.

Yes, they do. In the laundry room. Even if it was about doing laundry. It was. Let's not forget that still domestic overtime yes yeah terry it was i was in the middle i was like googling stuff in real time as i was watching and i was like in the middle of looking up terry and then you find out what happens to terry i was like oh damn terry too soon. And the person that Rosemary mistakes her for, an actress and model named, was it Vicky?

It was some, anyway, that's actually who plays that character. Oh, that's funny. I forget the name. So this isn't a good story. But she's like, hey, aren't you like, oh, thank you, Super Producer Sophie. She's like, aren't you Victoria Vetri? And she's like, no, I'm not. But guess what?

Victoria Vetri plays that part. See, there's so many little tricks like that in this movie. But she's like, aren't you Victoria Vetri? And she's like, no, I'm not. But guess what? Victoria Vetri plays that part. See, there's so many little tricks like that in this movie. But she's credited as a different name. Another fun fact about that actor is that I was like, when I saw her on screen, I was like, oh, I recognize her from something. She was a Playmate Model of the Year under a different name

the year this movie came out. Which a lot of Playmates would do back in the day is like use different names. But she was Angela Dorian, same lady. Right on. Okay. R.I.P. Terry. Is there a Dorian Gray reference there?

Is that her thing in the closet with the thing? All kinds of sneaky references in this movie. Yeah. Tell me about it. And then so after they've moved in, Rosemary and Guy hear some like strange chanting coming from next door. And then a short time later, Terry commits suicide by jumping out of a window. And she had said, oh, I live with this older couple, the Castavetes, which is confusing because John Castavetes is in this movie and their name is the Castavetes.

Anyway, she's like, yeah, they were a family to me. They brought me in and then she commits suicide so something is amiss here and then uh they meet this couple roman and she commits suicide we don't really know what happened we don't know we never really find out no yeah we have our suspicions though suicide not being one of them and she has this necklace with a charm on it. A stinky necklace. A stinky necklace. I love the detail that the necklace stunk. Especially when that receptionist at the end is just like, yeah, everyone in this office smells crazy. Like, you're just like, oh, my God.

So then they meet Roman in mini-caste of it. Wait, can I just interject one thing? So in this little bauble this jewel that's hanging around her neck inside it is a root called tennis root yes which is very important because later rosemary holds this thing up to the mirror and she says tennis anyone which is one of my favorite lines in the movie it's great she talks to herself a lot in this movie i know well it's either her it's either her many and i mean i'd pick me over many yeah who can she trust right she can't trust anyone but i mean ruth gordon and she's so great so great she's so good yes so um they meet the

neighbors and rosemary and guy go over to dinner at the cast of vets and guy is like reluctant at first but then they start hanging out with them more and more and the cast of vets and guy is like reluctant at first but then they start hanging out with them more and more and the cast of vets are getting a little clingy meanwhile guy is like rosemary let's have a baby and then she's very excited right because she wanted that and then all she's about apparently yeah it seems to be her one whole thing. It's like we don't know a lot about her. I don't know. I don't like to be a mother. So interesting.

Why is that? Maybe because it was written by men. Yeah, in 1966, by the way. Right. So the more time they spend with the cast of Vets, the more weird things are happening. Like guy who is an actor and who was up for a part gets it because the other guy who was up for that part suddenly goes blind. And then Minnie brings over this dessert, which she calls chocolate mouse, which is just mousse. And it makes Rosemary all woozy. And she notices this like chalky undertaste and then she eats a little bit

but not all of it but then she passes out anyway presumably from having eaten this and then there's this dreamlike sequence in which she is surrounded by naked people who are chanting and that she they're tying her to a bed and her husband guy is there and the cast of vets are there and they're all participating in what seems like some sort of demonic ritual they're nude but they're also talking to each other it's like I was like is this chill or not like I know it's not chill but they were all just like standing in the nude like hey is she awake and then right it's very casual. I know. Okay. Very chill. And then a demon-looking guy rapes Rosemary. Yes.

And then she wakes up. She's covered in scratches. And then Guy is like... This scene is like... I have to watch this scene like four or five times. It is so... We have to. We will spend a lot of time unpacking this scene, I'm sure.

But basically he's like, I had sex with you last night while you were sleeping. I didn't want to miss baby night. And she is like, Oh, and then worth mentioning. No problem. Marital rape is legal in New York till 1984.

Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we Okay, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll spend a lot of time unpacking that. And then Rosemary goes to a doctor, Dr. Hill, and finds out that she's pregnant. And then Guy insists on telling the cast of vets right away. It's like the first thing he does.

And then they recommend that she see a different obstetrician, Dr. Saperstein. And then she's having a lot of pain with her pregnancy. She's losing weight. Everyone keeps telling her that she looks like shit. Everyone keeps telling her she looks like shit. Yes. Everybody. You look like chalk.

You look like death warmed at one after the next. So horrible. And it's like the one, and I'm sure we'll get to this too, but like the one choice that she makes without consulting anybody is her haircut. And everyone is so mean to her about it. Everyone hates the haircut. Yeah, that's another unpacking. The thing about the haircut, like what? The one, but it's like the one thing she does without checking in with anyone

and everyone's like, ugh. Yeah. Even her friend. Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah so then hutch comes back and he wants to talk to rosemary but he also hates her haircut he does hate her haircut and he comments on her weight a lot and we're supposed to like him yeah right but then when she goes to meet up with him because he he feels that something's wrong with this situation and when she goes to meet up with him, she discovers that he has suddenly fallen into a coma. And then her pains are getting worse.

And she wants less and less to do with the cast of vets. And she doesn't want to go to Dr. Saperstein anymore. She stops drinking the herbal drink that Minnie has been making her. And then Guy does not react well to this. He is furious. And then at a party that she insists on throwing and insists on not inviting the cast of it to. Or the Saperstein's or like anyone involved in the shadiness. Her friends like give her a regular drink and then the pain goes away it's unclear exactly what causes the pain to go away you know maybe it's witchcraft we're not sure we don't know

but it goes away because she's threatening like i'm never going to go to saperstein again and then suddenly the pain vanishes and we get a brief scene with her and her friends which i was waiting for the whole time like where are her friends right She didn't seem to have any besties anywhere. Right. And then all of a sudden, there they are at the party. There they are. I'm like, did we learn what their names were? But either way, there's a good scene.

It's like they are immediately responsive to her pain. They're immediately like, no, this doesn't sound like what should be happening. They make sure Guy stays out of the room. And that interaction empowers Rosemary a little bit to stand up to Guy, who immediately is like, you're never going to see your friends again. Sorry. You know, like and calls them dumb bitches. Yeah. Yeah.

Unbelievable. Feminist icon Guy. I know. His name is literally Guy. That's right. That's what I love. And then we cut immediately to a few months later. And now she is pregnant as hell.

She's thriving. In a moo moo. Yeah, they're making preparations for the baby. They're making this nursery and everything. And then her friend Hutch dies. And his friend gives Rosemary a book that Hutch wanted her to have called all of them witches yep and then rosemary's told that the name is an anagram and she figures out that it's not the name of the book but it's the name of someone in the book stephen marcato and it anagrams to roman castavette

why are criminals gotta keep using that? Criminals should just stop doing anagrams. Just make up something new. It's so interesting, too, because as you pointed out, his last name is very close to Cassavetes. Yes. And that's obviously a thing they thought and laughed about before they shot the movie, right? And then, you know, which came first, the name or the anagram? So they go, okay, the title is going to be this.

So let's see. How can we? And there's so many name games in this thing. The Roman, I mean, the bad guy next door is named Roman, of course. Yeah. And which can play into this whole thing about what happened later in the 70s and how he, the devil man and so on.

And then, of course, as you said, her husband's name is Guy. It's totally a generic word for dude. Right. And she's Rosemary like the virgin mary oh my god it goes on and on there's so much rosemary is also an herb there's a lot of herbs rosemary a stinky herb yeah also this is a great time to point out that my name caitlin durante anagrams to a number of things you've got latin dancer uti you've got

um cat turd in line you've got the best ones there's there's a bunch well i'm gonna go do anagram myself it's fun it's really fun anyway so in the book she she learns that Roman's father was a witch who performs rituals and uses like baby's blood because it's the most powerful blood to use. Sure. So Rosemary tells Guy about all of this and then she's like, I never want to see the cast of vets again. My baby's in danger. We're going to move out. And then she goes to Dr. saperstein and tells him about all of this and he tells her that roman is ill and that he doesn't have long to live and she's like

okay well maybe this will solve my problems uh if they he just dies and is out of the picture so guy and rosemary see the cast of vets off because they're going to be traveling to all these different places because he's a world traveler. Yeah. And then Guy throws out the book that Hutch gave Rosemary. So she goes and gets more books about witchcraft. And sort of confirms a suspicion that she had that the coven was responsible for the other actor being blinded. She basically hacks pre-computers.

Yes. Which is going to a bookstore, just doing some research. Major hacking sequence. Definitely. So she realizes things are really amok here and she packs up her things and she goes to see Dr. Staperstein again. But then she realizes that he's in on it, too, because of the stinky herb. Stinky necklace. He's got the tannis, too. Tannis anyone. Feminist icon, the receptionist, who's just like, you smell bad, just like my boss.

She's like, oh, no. Who doesn't say that when you walk in? Yeah. I was like, well, maybe a little unprofessional, but helpful to the plot. So she runs out and she goes back to dr hill and tells him everything like she thinks the guy has promised the coven her baby in exchange for his success as an actor and then it seems like dr hill is going to help but instead he calls guy and dr saperstein and then they come and get her she's hysterical right yeah they take her back home and then she tries to get away, but it doesn't work.

She goes into labor and then Saperstein gives her sedative and she passes out. She wakes up. The baby's been born. She's like, where's my baby? They're like, the baby died. Sorry. And she knows that they're lying. But she can hear a baby crying in the other room.

I was like, do you guys not have a second location to go to? Yeah. Not a foolproof plan. Yeah. And then guys are like, you have the pre-partum crazies. So, yeah, she hears the baby crying and then she remembers that closet that the big piece of furniture was in front of. She's like, let me. The devil's closet.

There you go. She goes into it and she realizes that there is a door behind this, I guess, partition kind of thing. And she goes into this creepy apartment and the coven is there, including Guy and the cast of Vets. And a satanic bassinet.

Yeah. It's all black. That's right. That must have been fun for the art director. Totally. Richard Silbert, by the way. Incredible. And then there's a baby in the cradle. We don't see it.

She looks into it and we see her horrified reaction. And she's like, what have you done to its eyes? And then Roman, who is not dead by the way and who is not traveling and he's like he has his father's eyes satan is the father not guy satan chose you because you're the cutest woman in new york that's not everyone people should say that on tinder sage had chose you you're the most charming girl in los angeles and apparently the most clueless too and then guys like a guy at the end is very i mean i guess if we're going like a reverse

nativity deal yeah he he like joseph is pretty thrilled to be cucked by a higher power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, yeah, it's not my baby. Yeah. He just didn't care nearly enough about that. Not hardly at all.

Yeah. Just take a class, guy. We can make more. We can make more babies. We're going to Beverly Hills. They have babies there. Oh, yeah. And then they're chanting Hail Satan

and then Roman is like, hey, Rosemary, why don't you be a mother to this baby? At first she's like, ew, no. But then she's like, okay. Baby. And that is the end of the movie. Yes.

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. La, la a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. So, y'all, this is Questlove and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimany, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Nimminy here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records.

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Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. I'm really good at karaoke. And on camera, yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge.

I'm not going to hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. I mean, where to begin?

I don't know. There's so, we've, all three of us have established that we enjoy the movie. And admire the craft. Yes. Can we just say one thing? The music. Christoph Komeda, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that totally wrong. The music, the score is incredible.

Oh, yeah. Yes. I guess going into the behind-the-scenes lore surrounding this movie, he died a pretty brutal death less than a year after this movie came out. The composer? The composer, yeah. There's a lot of like strange

stuff. What's one of those? Hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, so this is, you know, a highly regarded prestige horror psychological thriller. Like in 2014, it was selected for preservation in the national film registry by the library of congress it's still shown in theaters like they tried to reboot it with zoe saldana didn't work out in 2014 also should we just

tackle the art versus artist right at the top and then we can talk about the characters? Because I feel like if we don't talk about it now, it will just haunt the rest of the conversation. Yes. In terms of Roman Polanski, the director of this film. And the writer of the film. Yes, he wrote and directed it. And it was adapted from a novel written by Ira Levin. Who we'll get to.

I don't know anything about him, so I'm interested to learn about that. So Roman Polanski, he had a troubled past. You know, he was a Holocaust survivor. His parents were taken in raids during the Holocaust. A year after this movie comes out, the Manson family brutally murders his wife, Sharon Tate, and some of his friends.

And yes, definitely went through some shit yes but it is no excuse for what he did which is he statutory raped a lot of underage girls and he admitted it uh at least convicted in uh 1978 i believe of statutory rape yeah Yeah, 77, 78. He was arrested and charged with drugging and raping a 13-year-old girl. And then a short time later, he fled to Paris after learning that the judge planned to imprison him rather than just give him some other lesser punishment. Right. So he's been a fugitive for about 40 years.

Several decades, yeah. And in that time, he has won another Oscar. Is that correct? Oh, maybe. I don't know about that. I believe he won for The Pianist in 2002. Fuck, yeah. So that's fun.

Also, since that time, several other women have come forward saying that he raped them while they were underage. Good Lord. He's also been celebrated in the recent years in Europe as well. I mean, he doesn't stop getting awards. No, he doesn't stop working. I mean, it seems like he's very infrequently stopped working at all. He did win an Academy Award in 2002 for for the pianist like he's continued to work he just can't come back to the united states and it wasn't until last year that like post me

too that he was finally removed from the academy um but that's not even to say that that's a permanent thing it's like time out Time out. Yeah. Yeah. As so many people who perpetrate stuff like this get. It's just a brief time out. I mean, the fact that the worst thing that has happened as a result of all this is that he couldn't be in the academy 40 years after being convicted and confessing a crime like that is just absurd. Right.

La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. Sorry. did and confessing a crime like that is just absurd right yeah his punishment is basically that he still gets to keep working and living in Europe and he lives in like Paris it's just it's yeah it's like one of the more upsetting examples in an industry that is, you know, littered with them. Can I also read a quote of his that I found? Oh, sure. I wonder if it's the same. Yeah. He is speaking to Clive James. This is in 1984. He says, Women these days wear a virtual armor, tights, panties, blue jeans, belt, as though they were afraid of constant aggression. There must be something psychological at the bottom of it. Oh, I've got another quote from him from when he's 79.

He said, the pill has changed greatly the women of our times. It masculinizes her. It chases away the romance from our lives. And then he says, trying to level genders is, quote, idiotic. It's crazy that he made this movie. Right. If that is how he feels. That is crazy.

Yes. And then this is Code of Ethics. Because, I mean, I think there are a few different reads of this movie, but largely this is a story about a woman who's been emotionally, psychologically, and sexually abused and who is trying to like regain agency over her body and her pregnancy and her life. She doesn't do it successfully, but. Also, again, having, as I said, being the person in the room here who was a grown up in 66, she was, and it really was, I'm not pre-feminist entirely, obviously. Feminists lived long before that. But before it became, you know, before, say, Ms. Magazine was published, which was my aha moment.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Awesome. I remember the day I read the first issue of Ms. Magazine. I'm sitting in one of the steps outside my apartment. I'm reading it. And I got so angry. I went into a fury. and I've never stopped the fury

anyway it was but in 66 it was still like you as I said I saw the movie and that woman looked like people I actually kind of knew like she had no ambition no career no employment no interest in any such thing. And by the way, as we pointed out, no like besties. I mean, she didn't even, she had nothing except this craving to have a baby, which sets you up for her willingness to accept this poor little devil baby. But it works for the story. But it's just, you know, again, looking at it now versus looking in 66, you go, oh, that reminds me of my friend Heather or whatever.

Now you look at it and you go, I don't know anybody like this. This is insane. And, you know, he takes the book away from her, and he's just so dominating, and she's yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir, to her husband. There's that scene where he, like, wakes her up, and he's like, it's 9 o'clock. He doesn't say make me breakfast, but that's what's implied.

He doesn't have to say it. Yeah. She's like, go eat out. And he's like, like, hell, I will. So like, yeah, she is just like this very traditional like homemaker housewife type. And women who want to be mothers, women who are homemakers, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is the life they choose sure the fact that she is given no other characteristics or interests or it's just desires it's treated as a given yeah like that's yeah and she she doesn't even have

any hobbies so in a way she's kind of i mean really kind of a one-dimensional right you know you'd think there would be some something everything we see her do is just very domestic i mean she's preparing the nursery she's like redecorating the house and stuff like that and again those things those activities are all fine to do but the fact that we don't see her and it's frustrating because i think that like the story at so many times indicates that she is very smart and very capable because she you know sees through this huge ruse and she like I listed out all the different times that she clocks things and notices things that other people don't and then follows up on it later and tries to get more information

it seems like with this character that the big hurdle for her is that she wants to figure out what's going on, but she wants to do it in a way that's polite and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. Right. And so at the time, I was just like, Rosemary, no! Like, after she figures out right away that when she's given the chocolate mousse by Minnie and she's like, this tastes wrong. Like, something is, they're not poisoning me correctly. And, you know, Guy starts to gaslight her immediately. He's like, this tastes wrong. Like something is, they're not poisoning me correctly. And, you know, Guy starts to gaslight her immediately. He's like, it's always something. Like you gotta just eat it, whatever.

And she goes back the next morning after she is raped and knows that. But she goes back to Minnie and brings back the dishes. And it's like, thank you. I really liked it. It was really good. And it's like she's part of what really like broke my heart about her character is that she always knows that something is wrong and she is always aware of her own pain but is allowing herself to be talked out of it because she doesn't want to hurt other people or because she's like doubting her own because women are conditioned to be

accommodating and polite and all that. And I mean, we can't ignore the cultural and historical time that this comes out in this movie, that it's set in. I mean, it's set in 65 into 66. And, you know, second wave feminism was kind of gearing up. Just starting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you said, Jessica, like she's not unlike a lot of women of this time. So we, me watching it now, I find myself very frustrated by her just constant accommodation of people. And even when she senses that people are doing wrong by her,

she's still like, well well i don't want to offend anybody constantly everybody's doing things wrong at the minimum annoying her and at the maximum raping her yeah but then we also see i don't know there there are so many parts of this movie that even when i was frustrated with rosemary i felt like in most cases the story explains to you why this is her reaction because the times that she does say something, her situation gets worse almost right away. Where like when she does assert herself and she's like, I'm throwing this party. Guess what? I have friends. They're coming over.

Scary people aren't invited. And like, you know know makes that happen and then when she speaks up for herself right after the consequences she's cut off from access to her friends yes and it's like it i don't know they're like seeing her try to accomplish something and then be immediately set two steps backwards by like the oppositional forces like i don't i worked for me story-wise and it made me really sad yeah and then another example that is when she's saying that she's no longer gonna see dr saperstein anymore the pain like this pain that she's been having for months now is not going away like something is wrong and she's saying i'm not gonna drink the herbal drink the mcflurry yeah like what is it's like a vanilla milkshake i kind of like to

i was like damn stop drinking that shit yeah and then the husband is so mean about not getting a second opinion i mean it's so she well we see her stand up for herself different times and then she's shot down and then in the next scene we see her drinking the drink again so it kind of makes for reasons that i don't think the narrative quite like i don't know why she's in like changing her mind and it might have to do with all of this emotional and psychological abuse that she is undergoing by everyone around her i remember when I first learned about just the concept of gaslighting and like first hearing that term and learning what it was, I remember thinking to myself, oh, like what Rosemary's husband does to her in that movie. Like I made that connection

because I was like, oh, that is exactly what gaslighting is. That was like kind of my frame of reference for that. But like, like we already kind of touched on, there's so many times where he is just like textbook abusive behavior in terms of, you know, gaslighting her like, no, that chocolate mouse doesn't have a chalky undertaste, just eat it. And right, like, but it's also you see that so much in modern movies. I mean, the movie doesn't look like a dated movie, unfortunately, really. You know, you see, I think it was the was it The Shape of Water with Octavia Spencer? Yeah.

Just that just popped in my mind about her abuse of the relationship. Oh, yeah. For example, you do see these all the time. Yeah. Unfortunately, still the submissive woman and the abusive husband the chocolate the chocolate mouse scene while we're on it yeah that that was a scene that felt like pretty true to the marital rape scene just blew my mind on a number of levels yeah but the moose scene it was like a little bit different of you can sort of see the like mechanics of what he's doing but i also sort of

understood why it's like oh i don't want to have this conflict with this person i have to be with no matter what because that's how she viewed her life and like what is what are my options what is it easier to do i don't know i mean i've been in relationships like that where you're picking your battles kind of exactly where you're like finally the fucking moose like and that's sort of what she ends up saying because he finds I think in the space of that scene three different ways to blame it on her right where he's like nothing's good enough for you why are you being mean she worked on that all day you're being rude and like you know like and she pushes back a couple of times. It's not like immediately she folds. She's like, it's gross.

It tastes weird. Yeah. I think that Ruth Gordon is weird. Fair. But then eventually when he starts to like raise his voice, she is like, fine, I'll fucking eat it. Which is like stuff I know that I have done. I recognize that in my parents' marriage. Like that scene hit for me especially because it felt normal in a weird way.

Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, in the movie, of course, he has an agenda behind this, which is he wants to provide the world with this devil baby. And because it helps his career, he'll become a movie star tomorrow. And so he's invested in her eating the damn moose but in real life these things happen all the time and the man has no other agenda except to keep his wife submissive of course yeah so it's just an act of random violence or abuse and so that's why it seemed the scene seems normal in the movie it's as i say it's a whole other story. But nonetheless, it's a sad reflection of all kinds of things that happen like that all the time.

And it's like, as a viewer, it's almost like easier and more easy to understand that someone would do that to you because they're working for the devil. Exactly. Other than that is just what they think is okay to treat someone. In fact, you almost, I mean, as a movie watcher, you go, Oh, well, I see he's doing that because he wants. So you don't, it's not that you're forgiving him, but you say, I see he's got a motivation rather than just random misogyny, you know? Well, I couldn't help but think that like in the scene where they first go to dinner at the cast of Vets, Roman is like complimenting Guy. Oh, you did all this great hand gesture and your work in this play was so good. And it's just like, oh, he got complimented one time and now he's going to sell his baby to the devil. He literally goes, she goes into the kitchen with Minnie for a minute.

And literally by the time they come back two minutes later, this decision has been made. Yeah. Okay, sure, yeah. Call my agent. Lazy bastard. You lazy bastard. Just take a class. My people will get to your people.

We'll take care of it. Gosh, I mean. I know. It's just like and also makes you kind of want like this is an indication that this guy had a serious character flaw to say the least wouldn't she have picked up on this at some point in their marriage like kept thinking it takes her so long yeah to figure and again i mean but their relationship seems to change pretty abruptly in the movie, too. Like, in the first couple scenes, they seem to be generally getting along. She's like, I want...

Like, she even seems to... It almost seems like... She's like, let's make love. Even on the floor. Yeah. Like, she's like, I want to fuck. He's like, okay. Like, it started to seem like, oh, maybe this is a...

I did not know anything about this movie. I was like, they're kind of a nice couple. Right. seems that way at first but then he turns around like yeah but see like why why did it take this long for them for her to figure out what especially with the dr saperstein thing it takes her so long to realize that he's on it because he's also doing like classic like abusive things isolating her from her friend like he's like don't talk to your friends about their pregnancy don't read books he literally yeah don't read books don't talk to your friends you're like no yeah like you're a doctor what are you saying and she well that that's a good transition into like the the whole like one of the big themes of this movie

and it's like it's weirdly now looking into knowing what we know about how roman polanski views women and then if you look into ira levin's work where he was not the monster that roman polanski is but his work sort of had a general theme that he also wrote the stepford wives was his other like major work of he was really good at writing villains that were normal men and that was what makes the story scary is that it's like the devil you know basically but you know it also makes a lot of women in his narratives pretty submissive and not I wouldn't say he is a feminist but he wrote some interesting stories about women sure so. So it's weird. I guess all that to say I don't know how much of these themes are done intentionally.

And like Ira Levin said about this book that it's about atheism and that people who see feminism in it are just seeing what they want to see. Interesting. He's like it's about how people go too hard with Christianity and then they're like – But don't you think any director makes a movie without necessarily realizing what things people are going to see in it? Because, I mean, I can't imagine that everybody has notions about a movie they've seen that the director knew they would. I don't think that's the way art works. I think that stuff inadvertently affects people. Totally.

They find things that, well, really? That's what you saw? Okay. And now that seems to be like some of the main takeaways that people have from this movie watching it now is like one of the bigger themes of just like ignoring and minimalizing women women's physical pain which happens throughout this entire movie yeah i mean it feeds into the gaslighting thing as well but there is that like moment where mia farrow is standing outside in new york and she's like pain be gone i will have no more of thee i was like oh she is she's gone shakespearean know. It's like, that was an aside. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.

Between Dr. Saperstein and Guy, they're constantly, like, she is saying, I'm in pain. This hurts. Something's not right. And people who obviously couldn't possibly understand what a pregnancy feels like are saying, no, it'll go away in a day or so. You know, ad nauseum. Don't read books. Don't talk to your friends. And that is like such a proven, I mean, exaggerated version of like how women are treated by doctors. There's like been studies.

I have a study here from a book called Doing Harm, The Truth About How Bad Medicine and Lazy Science Leave Women Dismissed, Misdiagnosed, and Sick. It's a researcher named Maya Dusenberry says that, quote, the tendency to not believe women's reports of their symptoms is definitely connected to these larger, broader cultural stereotypes about women as emotional and irrational and hysterical in the colloquial sense of the word. Women are stereotyped as more ready to seek care. So basically, like women are more likely to point out their own pain. And therefore, it is more likely to be dismissed by a male-dominated profession, which I'm sure was even more so in 1966.

In the 60s. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, having seen it back then, I don't remember having any thoughts about any of these things when I saw it. I mean, maybe a slight annoyance at how dominated she was, because I was kind of a rebel at that time. But it was the 60s after all. Right. But yeah, just totally different now, perspective now, because of all this stuff, you know, and the 8 million studies that have been done since then and all the advances of feminism and everything else. And also the Me Too. Yeah, I mean, an example of that that we see in the movie is the scene where she goes to Dr. Hill after she's discovered that, like, Dr. Saperstein is in on this coven thing. That's another heart, that is like a heartbreaking on par for me with the you weren't raped by the devil, you were maritally raped. Okay. And the gaslighting scene with the chocolate mousse, because it's just like there are like shades of real life in that. Yeah, it felt very authentic. Yeah, it's and it's and it sucks.

The whoever I don't know, let me find the name of the actor who played dr hill but i thought it was very well charles groden oh yeah my my man grodes uh i i thought he gave a great performance because you know in that scene mia farrow is laying out all this research she's done it does sound a little bit out there i would would be worried about her if someone just came in cold and was like, I'm pregnant with the devil. Everything is fucked up. But you can tell she means it so much and something is wrong and she needs someone to believe her, which she tells him. She's like, no one is listening to me. Yeah.

And he says what any woman who desperately needs to be believed is. He says, OK, let's do something about this. Like that's like and she's got them. And she's so relieved. The relief. Yeah, it's like palpable. You can like feel it. And and then he leaves and it sucks like this.

Just so many versions of this happen all the time of like you want to keep someone calm and then you call their abusers to come and pick them up. Like that happens constantly. Right. And it's just so. But did you. I maybe I was like reading too much into it, but I really liked the shot where Dr. Saperstein and Guy enter the room and Dr. Hill is in the back of that shot. Yeah.

And you can almost see that he knows he's doing the wrong thing or he like there's this like look of dare I say doubt 2008. There's like a look he has a I don't know if Charles Grodin's got a weird resting face but I was like I I was like, this motherfucker knows he did the wrong thing. But, and this I think is again something that's like real life, sometimes the way that men interact with each other, they would rather sell out a woman than seem weird to other men. Totally. weird to other men totally because if dr hill is the one person who's like i do believe that all this freaky devil shit is happening and aligns himself with her i think that he is afraid of doing that and would rather sell her down the river and literally you know force her to birth the devil than be then go out of his comfort zone socially right and for a split second i was like oh is the implication that he's also in on the coven thing but i don't think that's it at all and i think

it's just i know i think it's just that like he sees this woman even as the medical doctor that he is he sees a woman who appears to be hysterical and who he perceives to be like, oh, well, she's pregnant. And like pregnant women be hormonal that she is like out of her mind and needs to be put back in the care of the men who are actually abusing her. Because men can be trusted and women can't be trusted with their feelings, basically. So, yeah, that was, I mean, it was a very effective horror moment in the movie when when saperstein and guy come back into the room right but it hurt my heart to be like like dr hill i thought you were a good guy like right i mean and it's like he he oh it's so devastating to the point where like it almost took me a second to get back into the action after that.

Because that is such a gut punch. And then she immediately has to literally go on the run to get away. And it doesn't work. Right. And it makes me so sad. Oh, gosh. We've got to take another quick break. So let's process our feelings a little bit.

And then we'll come right back. Oh, geez. So, y'all, this is Questlove and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimany, to tell

you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey y'all, Nimany here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop. Flash, slam, another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. The tip of the cap is another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin,

a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate.

My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you.

Oh, my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Catherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it.

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Can I just say also, Anthea Silbertbert the wife of richard silbert the designer she did the clothes and can we talk about her clothes for a minute the little i mean they were all

literally dresses like you would see on a three-year-old small child all those are the lace collars and then the little jumpers nothing was fitted her body was completely you know like those little lampshade dresses but literally think about it they were children's clothes it's just so even when she's pregnant she looks like a little girl a little girl it's very strange yeah i mean the art direction and the costuming in this movie is also cool and i mean the movie looks incredible yeah i mean that's like an attempt to infantilize her and make her seem virginal. So almost like equating her to the Virgin Mary.

Yeah. But also the little, you know, again, it just, you can't help but have those echoes of Roman. The parallel. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The haircut that Rosemary gets makes her be the baldest woman in charge, except she's not really in charge of anything, including her own life. It's aspirational. I think spiritually it makes sense.

She gets the haircut. She's like, I'm in charge now. And everyone's like, no, we hate it. You look bad. And it affects her negatively. She wasn't ready for the haircut. That haircut should have aligned with her becoming more in charge of her life i mean a different version yeah it's just it's so it's so frustrating to watch every like

everything she tries in good faith that in a movie that were kinder to its protagonist would result in something the last thing i wanted to say about the minimizing pain is, of course, the only people she talks to who believe her are other women. Yes. Who are then immediately removed from her life. I think she tries to call one right before she is forced into going into labor. But they take her seriously immediately. They believe her. They're like, well, let's get this fixed.

And then they are also ostracized and removed from her life. And then we never see them again. And can I just say also that scene in the phone booth is incredible. When she's trying desperately, she's trying to reach her friend, A, and the doctor, B. And she's in a phone booth. And it's 95 degrees. And people are coming and going. And it's just like, and the camera holds on, I lost track of how long it was.

The camera held one position. Yeah. And it went on for like eight minutes or something. Yeah, there's no cuts or anything, right? No cuts. And she was great in the scene. Mia Farrow is incredible. And she was sweating.

And it was literally like her life in that phone booth. She's trapped in this small space. Nobody's responding to her on the that phone booth. She's trapped in this small space. Nobody's responding to her on the phone or otherwise. And then at the very end of the scene, this man appears outside the phone booth with his back to her looming.

It was like a living hell literally her being in that phone booth. It was an incredible scene. It's a very effective horror movie. Yeah, it really is. And Mia Farrow, her performance is insanely good. incredible scene it's a very effective horror movie yeah it really is and mia farrow like i her performance is like insanely good yeah it really is yeah um we gotta talk about the rape scene we do we do have to talk about the rape scene um so there's okay so i mean i think that

maybe maybe the end to talk about that scene is to talk about the scene that comes immediately after. Yeah. Because the way it is stylized is, I mean, it sucks that we see rape in movies so frequently. I don't think that it's especially like worth discussing. There is, I mean, there's a bunch of nude Satanists there. She gets raped by Satan. She does call out at one point, this isn't a dream. This is really happening.

Right. And then we cut to the next morning. Yeah. I think the next day is, I found that far more disturbing. Yeah. Even though, I mean, obviously the previous scene is very disturbing, but it's disturbing in a way that's kind of unfamiliar because it's because there's a room full of nude Satanists there. There's so much fantasy that you can kind of float through it.

And just the horror and unease we feel during that scene is, like that's the intention of that scene. But then the next scene, Jamie, as you said, is disturbing for a different reason. It is. Because I have the dialogue exchange here. Oh, I have it written out. Who do you want to be? I don't want to be Guy, but I don't want you to be Guy.

Nobody wants to be Guy. I'll be Guy. So the next morning, she wakes up next to Guy. She's kind of disoriented. She's remembering what's happened to her in real time and she realizes that she has these like pretty severe scratches on her body. Yes. So Guy says kind of gesturing to his fingernails. He's like don't yell I already filed them down. I didn't want to miss baby night. And then Rosemary says while I was out? And then he's in the other room and he says, and it was kind of fun in a necrophile sort of way.

And just like any sympathy. And in the previous scene where you see Rosemary being in and out and in and out and then it cuts to the devil raping her. He's not acting that way. He's saying, we'll have sex another day. It's okay. Right, like tomorrow. I want you to go to sleep. And so that, I mean, I didn't know what happened immediately after.

I was like, oh, that's something, you know. But then the next morning, it's a total 180. He was like, yeah, of course I maritally raped you. It's still legal in most states when this movie comes out. And then Rosemary says, I dreamed someone was raping me. I don't know, someone inhuman. And he says, thanks a lot. Like he's already over it.

Right. And she's calling him. She says nothing. And then he tries to touch her. She pulls away. And he's like, I didn't want to miss the night. And she says, we could have done it this morning or tonight. Last night wasn't the only split second.

And then he wraps the scene up by saying, I was a little bit loaded myself, you know. So he admits that he maritally raped his wife even though he said in the previous scene go to bed it's fine and then where the story gets really complicated is that he didn't maritally rape his wife he brought her to the devil so that she could get raped by the devil but the fact that all the

fantasy shit aside the fact that this scene plays out the way it does and it's realistic it's just insane to watch where he's like yeah duh of course i did that it was fun and then she also acts like it's kind of no big deal she's visibly upset by it but she just kind of has to accept it because yeah as you said like marital rape wasn't even considered rape it was like oh you married to a man, he can have sex with you whenever he wants, including while you are sleeping and not able to give consent.

Yeah, that seemed to go right by her, actually. I thought that was kind of alarming, to say the least. And to see her, like, she pulls away a little bit, but still is, oh, it's just a very... But that was very much with the culture, too, as you say. Like, man, you know, whenever you want it, you just take it. You know, would anybody have thought that the devil raping this childlike, virginal young woman would sort of have this creepy mirror effect as to, you know, Roman Polanski's own activities? Right. I mean, it's...

It just has a whole other whole other level of creepy yeah absolutely yeah god this and i'm like i understand after watching it i'm like i understand why i avoided it for so long yeah no and then i mean i'm not a mother so i can't speak to mothering instincts but i'm just curious if there's anyone out there whose mothering instincts are so strong that when you learn that your baby is the devil do you still like yep I want to be the mother to this devil baby is that oh I can a thing I I have been a mother. I mean, I am a mother. I still am. Did you quit? I got fired. My daughters fired me when they turned 20. And I have to say it is an overpowering love. Is it? Okay.

It really is. Neither of my daughters are a devil. Okay, good. I'm so glad. Although sometimes I wonder. So I can't really speak to that exactly. I mean, it's not a real thing. But, you know, and I can I sort of bought it because I I know what that's that feeling is like when your baby first shows up. It's the most incredible thing unless you're a person who doesn't like babies. But and also because we've been set up through the movie where she has no other interests or nothing else she's passionate about except that.

Right. So all her juice is going towards being maternal. So you can sort of see, well, he's mine and maybe I better – she's rocking the cradle too hard, she says to the woman, don't rock that cradle so hard. And you can sort of – I don't rock that cradle so hard and you can sort of i don't know i thought it was an interesting ending where it doesn't it would be it would be super lame if the movie outright said and now she's going to be a mother to the devil baby but i did the fact that she it like does line up with her character that she would consider it yeah and then also i i don't know i was like in a hotel room in Indianapolis

just like staring at the ceiling like, what would I have done? But if you think about like, no one asks to be born, right? Right. And this baby is in a predicament. It seems like, you know, this baby could really use some good influence.

Yeah. I mean, there is that great maternal rush, right, when they're born. And so she's doing this towards her infant. The thing that crossed my mind was like, but what happens when he's a teenager? Yeah. And he's going to lash out. And he starts like starting wars and whatever, all that shit the devil does.

Then what? Is she going to think, geez, adoption might have been a better option? This could go very, we need to talk about Kevin later on. Yeah, exactly. I guess my mind went to one of our very first discussions on our very first episode was the Kill Bill discussion where she learns that she's pregnant. And I think the implication is just that every woman

has such a strong mothering instinct that no matter what her circumstances are in life, she's going to, like, drop everything to be a mother. That was more jarring to me in that movie because we knew that she had, the whole movie was about her other interests. Right. With Rosemary, I mean, I think it's like a flaw.

I don't even know if it's a flaw, but we don't know anything about her other than she is a sweet little lady from like Ohio. So it's like implied that she is naive. She doesn't have a large support network in New York and she wants to have a baby. And that's sort of all we know. That really does make your skin crawl a little bit, doesn't it? When somebody says everybody has such a strong mothering. Because they don't, actually.

I don't have one whatsoever. I mean, you might if a baby popped out. But sometimes I think people don't know whether they do or they don't. But they definitely, a lot of people don't. Right. And that's always been a thing that's been pinned on women that is like a falsehood. Definitely. And that's never asked a thing that's been pinned on women that is like a falsehood. Definitely.

And that's never asked of men, really. No. It's like no one has ever... What about the paternal? Yeah, that strong paternal instinct. Let's make that movie. Also with Sharon Stone. Right. Is there anything else that anyone wants to talk about before we finish so uh the villains

of this movie are we i mean we have male and female villains basically all the all the satanists are and it's also worth saying culturally that this is like base level satanic panic which will only increase going into the 70s and 80s. 80s and 90s even. And a lot of that has to do with what happens to Roman Polanski's wife the next year because the Manson family was so steeped in that. Yeah. It's just a whole fucking, like this movie weirdly foreshadows. And also there were a lot of, I forget what, there was like a list of in the late 60s,

it was like The Omen came out. There was a lot of in the late 60s it was like the omen came out there was a lot of like evil baby movies uh the bad seed came out in the 50s which was a movie that used to scare the shit out of me so it's like taking place with that but minnie for all of her satanic shortcomings is a fun character she's really fun to watch. Every time she's on screen, you're like, oh, fuck, it's Ruth Gordon. She's got charisma. She's got, look at that headscarf. Look at that blouse.

Like, she's got blue eyeshadow on. She's really going for it. And I think that that just is, like, something that we come across a lot, where Minnie's character has 9,000 times the personality that Rosemary does, which is, I don't know, it's almost like in High School Musical. If you listen to our Matriarch episode in High School Musical, it's like how Gabriella is the main character, but she's kind of boring. And then Sharpay, the female villain, has all this personality and we're supposed to hate her. And it's like, but she's more fun to watch. Right. It's just another thing. personality and we're supposed to hate her and it's like but she's more fun to watch right

it's just another thing and then when you get to fucking louie louie laura laura linney wasn't what's his character's name laura louise laura louise she's in one scene and she's just she's she's in a bunch of scenes i want to spin off with her i want to spin off with her she's just yelling she's also got a wild blast i'm like minnie and laura louise okay a sitcom with two older female satanists who are best friends i love that it's someone buy it it's like laverne and shirley but like satan there's satanist well that's another thing i wanted to say about this movie uh which is that a lot of movies and a lot of media about witches have a very specific way of depicting witches and it's usually that they are evil and bad and preying upon innocence but these days anyone who identifies as a witch is just,

you know, charging their crystals and not doing harm to anybody. Same thing with Satanism. The way Satanism is depicted in this movie and many movies is like, hey, let's get together and help someone rape a woman and steal her baby and stuff like that and obviously anyone who's doing anything like that is horrible but modern satanism is nothing like that i don't know if if you or our listeners are familiar with like modern satanism but the members of this satanic temple are cool they are very like progressive they're very like pro-reproductive rights they're very pro-science they're very pro like separation of church and state their agenda is is very progressive as far as i can tell i guess we should yeah we should make clear that when we're

goofing on satanism in this movie it's the version of satanism that uh is projected in this and throughout the satanic panic yes yes yes yes so shout out to all our satanists and i i mean and it's like it's so interesting because it's like it's always the not always but in some cases like the subcultures that just have a negative stigma attached to it because of media like this that end up being like very lovely progressive people i would also lump in juggalos to that juggalos are if you look at their platform we got to get some juggalos in office they're so progressive they're so they preach love they march on washington they're out there doing the work they are gathering there's a really good hacky sack shout out to all our juggalo listeners yeah the main thing here is that the way that like witchcraft and satanism is portrayed in this movie and different other movies around this era is not

reflective of like modern witchcraft and modern uh satanism and stuff like that so worth noting oh we didn't get around to the artist art thing oh yeah we never concluded that maybe just too long a discussion for right now there i mean this this is one of the harder cases i've ever encountered yeah i don't know it doesn't get harder than this. Yeah. Well, how does everyone feel? I mean, I'm fine with not seeing this movie again, or really any movies that we know have been made by the auteurs who are criminals. There's so much other stuff out there that isn't made by sex criminals that uh i am happy to watch instead but it is tricky because this is a well-crafted movie and i like i hate to admit this but i like another of polanski's movies it's called the ninth gate it is not a good movie but i still like it but like i'm, I can't watch this anymore.

Yeah, it's weird. It feels like it's such an individual decision. And it's like the sort of thing where I think when the Me Too movement was first happening, I was very, I think along with like a lot of people are very quick to just be like, nope, done, bye, see you, garbage, bad. And I still feel that way fundamentally. But it's like now that we're having these conversations more, it's like, okay, it's not as black and white as that. Especially when it's like, you know, you can't be upset with a friend of yours if you have a friend who loves Rosemary's baby and is not quite ready to part with it.

Like that's a thing. And that means that's like when art – I don't know. I mean there's millions of people out there who aren't going to want to part with Michael Jackson's music. Right. That's another – So I still don't know. I think what my hope is is that we come to a point in just the entertainment that's available to us that so much good stuff has been made by talented people who are not predators and sex criminals

that we can just enjoy that and kind of forget about the stuff that is made by the bad people, but also... Well, there is also a lot to, for example, to look at this movie now. It gives us, just on this discussion, it gives us an interesting perspective on not just, you know, the movie itself and how it's crafted and how women in it look different than they would have when it came out, but also on the issue we're talking about,

on Roman Polanski and his behavior. And it makes you go, you know, I mean, it can be productive in a way if you can use it to better understand your own feelings about the whole thing, about all kinds of things. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I wish all Sex Predator's works

were so like absolutely, unquestionably bad art that it would be a much easier discussion. But it is. I mean, it's like a lot of people are processing how they feel. I think I mean, the only thing I think that we can all agree on is the fact that Roman Polanski got convicted of this crime and continued to work for 40 years is absolutely unacceptable. Yeah, that's horrible. That's horrible. And meanwhile, other people are like, I think, you know, two people have said he did this or he did that. And their lives are completely over, which is. Yeah, like you just don't get it.

You know, it doesn't make sense that he is thriving in Paris in a lovely way fuck him it's definitely like an individual journey listeners we encourage you to continue to explore your feelings about stuff like this talk to your friends about it it feels I don't know it's like uncomfortable

to talk about but it's I don't even having talks like this is helpful yeah I think so I had one more I don't even having talks like this is it feels helpful yeah i think so to process i had one uh more i don't know this movie because this was the 50th anniversary of this movie last year um there was a lot of media around it and there's a female horror director um named karen kusama my favorite movie she's directed is jennifer's body oh yeah love but she's she's you know one of the only prominent female horror directors, and so she was asked about this movie.

And she – I'll just read what she said. She said, quote, One thing to add here is that Roman Polanski has made one of the greatest feminist parables of cinema, and yet we have to struggle with Polanski the man and the things he did, the crimes he committed. But that to me is the enduring possibility of art, that it can stand apart from its maker, and I believe we have to judge Rosemary's Baby on its own merit. I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but the fact that that comes from a very progressive female horror director I thought was interesting and worth mentioning.

Well, it's just about 1.15, so we've got to wrap up. I have to go. I have to go see Dr. Saperstein. Oh, it's just about 115, so we've got to wrap up. I have to go. I have to go see Dr. Saperstein. Oh, no. Before you go. Jessica, no. Tannis, anyone? Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

It does. Can I just say, all they did when there was more than one woman in the scene, was talking about recipes and getting a second opinion. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. There wasn't really any substance exchanged. Not really, no. No. No.

But that's pretty par for the course for all the conversations that we see. Yeah, exactly. I've got to put on my clothing softener, my fabric softener. Right, right. Oh, yeah, there was the laundry scene, too. Yeah, laundry, babies, recipes. Yeah. Yeah.

And in almost every scene, there was an additional conversation about what does your husband do so yes or hey your husband is very hot that was one thing where like rosemary repeated her husband's resume to like four or five different characters i'm like i don't know he's a loser and how to kill an apatros that's not what it's called he's in this in this and yeah things aren't going great right now but they will be going good soon and i was like oh god that seems exhausting um to just i'm like i don't walk around just being like my boyfriend's not sure about his life direction like that sounds exhausting yeah well there are plenty of exchanges between between uh rosemary and minnie rosemary and terry yeah laura louise the brassy queen of the devil um it passes the devil's nanny the devil's aunt uh but she in most scenes with women it passes

at least once but the kind of exchanges are very domestic also question does the movie pass the Bechdel test if Mia Farrow talks to herself because I'm proud of being that I won't feel pain ever again pain be gone feminist text heard it here first um so let's rate the movie on our nipple scale it's zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I just don't know. I think I'm going to give it like just right down the middle, like a 2.5, because there is like, on one hand, this is like a movie whose journey we see is a woman who's dealing with all this abuse and who is trying to, you know, she has agency and she's trying to reclaim her agency even further. But I think this story would be a lot more powerful and authentic and probably maybe would have ended differently or the story would have unfolded a little differently if it had been, you know, written and directed by women, especially a mother who knows what a pregnancy is like and not a man who is a known rapist i think i might

be wrong about this nipple rating but i i don't really know i still just don't know how to really process this movie so i'm just gonna do the 2.5 and which is still an f when you think about it but um but uh yeah i wish there was just a slightly different version of this movie in which she's maybe more triumphant at the end or we know more about her character i don't feel empowered by this movie i see the read that it is it could be a feminist text but looking at it through the lens of our culture in 2019, I don't really see that so much. I wish the way this story had played out was that she catches on to all this devil coven stuff sooner. She does her research.

She figures everything out. She gets away. she has an abortion and then she just lives the rest of her life away from all the scary people so that would be lovely so yeah 2.5 and i'll give two of my nipples to mia farrow whose husband at the time Frank Sinatra left her during the shoot of this movie because he was like he's like you're still working uh well then that's not what I wanted and I'm gonna divorce you well he wanted her to be in a movie with him and then she bailed on the movie and then the movies came out the same day and Rosemary's Baby did like five times the amount of business so that's the triumphant. That's a marriage killer. Yeah.

Anyway, so two to Mia Farrow and I'll give my half nipple to the black cat that you see at the very end for a split second in the coven. And cats also have eight nipples. This is Cat Facts with Caitlin. Anyway, two and a half nipples, the end. Jessica, your rating. Oh, gosh. I'm Nipples, the end. Jessica, your rating. Oh, gosh. I'm torn about my nipples. Yeah.

It sounds very uncomfortable. Because I know it does, doesn't it? Because, again, I mean, when you said, like, the horror director considers this a feminist movie, in a way, you have to look at Rosemary. You could look at Rosemary as getting exactly what she wants ultimately which is a baby yeah and um this is the devil's baby but you're not going to take this baby away from me i'm going to have this it has red eyes and hooves but yeah it's still her baby yeah she got what she wanted in a way yeah it's just i'm so uncomfortable about how she's

treated i mean it's because it you, because I'm from that generation. My parents, the greatest generation, grew up. I mean, were married and had children in the 50s, and I watched the dynamics between them, and the echoes of that just make me so uncomfortable. On the other hand, I do think the movie is beautifully crafted. It's incredibly written. It's so well acted.

It looks gorgeous. And she's terrific. You know, so there's that. So there's great artistry. There's just so much to make you uncomfortable. And I'm a little ambivalent about the feminist thing, too. Like, really? I don't know if that's really what I would call a feminist outcome.

So I don't know. What would that translate in terms of nipples? Like what do you think? Two and a half? Two, three? Two, two and a half. Maybe I'm with you. Maybe it's two and a half.

Awesome. I mean, I'd give a big nipple to the scene in the phone booth. It was just so killer. It's such a great Hitchcock kind of thing. Jamie, what about you? I'm going to go with two and a half as well. It's a complicated choice. I don't think, it's weird.

I don't think we come across stories like this very often where I disagree with Karen Kusama. I don't think that this is like a feminist film. Right. But I do think it's an effectively told story about a woman that made me feel a lot. Yeah, it's an effectively told story about a woman where for all of the failings of Rosemary's character writing-wise, where we don't know anything really about her family,

we don't really know anything about if she has interest, did she go to school? How did she and Guy meet? There's so many things we don't know about her that we do know about Guy. But for the things we do know about her, she does seem pretty smart. Getting through a mire of gaslighting from everyone around you and still being able to do research she's constantly seeking out allies who can help her out unfortunately most of the world and i think the scene that upset me most is the scene with dr hill at the end yeah yeah like i i think you see that she does everything she possibly can to gain agency over herself her life and her body the reason i don't think it's a

feminist film is because she's not really successful in doing that so i don't know the way this movie rolls out is just like it i'm still i feel like i'm still processing it it's so i've never seen a movie be this cruel to its protagonist but also make it clear to you that the protagonist has done everything she could possibly do to try to save herself and it does not work it's just like i've it's usually if you see a movie that's cruel to its female protagonist it's like the protagonist is so severely underdeveloped that they seem stupid and like completely unable to help themselves but it's like Rosemary is intelligent. She's observant.

She's doing everything she possibly can. And the movie does not give her an inch. It's just wild, which I mean. I think it just has a lot to do with the era and the cultural context of when this movie came out and takes place and stuff. And for all of its problematic history that goes along and all the baggage that comes with this movie it does feel worth mentioning that it is like movies like this that allow it's like i

famously said before we started recording rosemary's baby walked so the baba duke could run and there's a lot of less troubling more endings you were just talking about movies uh made in the past couple of years alone with baba duke and then you've also got hereditary um that explore to varying degrees of success but like uh explore a woman's psyche and have that be a part of where the horror comes from so this movie while very flawed i think was at least its influence allowed the way good stuff to happen yeah yeah but it seems like just like very surface level read it seems like in spite of her trying to and like intelligently trying to save her own life at every turn it ended up the way that they wanted yeah and that is i didn't feel uplifted or she does not come out the victor in this no story and and it like, that's a difficult thing to watch that I don't think we see a lot that

is true to life in a lot of ways. Not necessarily what I want to see reflected in media, but, you know, like someone who does everything and the oppositional forces are too much and it just doesn't happen. This movie fucked me up i'll just go two and a half uh just because i i i love my friends and i want to be like them um two and a half i'll give uh i'm gonna give one to what's her name again louie louie what's her name i'll give one to laura louise because i was like what is going on with you over here which by the way roman castavette is like oh she and many are too old to take care of babies right it has to be you like those those broads will fuck them up like you're just like

oh i guess just but yeah but like i know but guy is too just satanists in general shouldn't be raising children i think we can all agree um yeah i'll give one to louie louie one to terry rip wish i knew you better and then i'll give a halfie to ruth gordon because my god what a fucking performance and she was turning a look in every fucking scene. Yeah. Jessica, thank you so much for being here. This has been such a delight. Thank you so much for having me.

This is so fun. Of course, yes. Is there anything you would like to plug? Yes. Talk about your podcast a little bit more? I want to just once again plug my new podcast. It's called Winetka. That's spelled W-I-N-N-E-T-K-A.

And it's about my childhood growing up there, which, of course, took place during, partly during the era that this movie covers and has all the ups and downs represented in that movie. Except for the devil part. Anyway, you can find it wherever you find your podcasts. Great. And it's a memoir. Wonderful. And then go on Instagram to Jessica Harperama. Yes. Or go to Winnetka Podcast on Instagram or Twitter.

I'm on Facebook too, Jessica Harper. Awesome. Amazing. Great. Yes, follow her in all the places and listen to Winnetka. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you.

So you have to go see Dr. Satterstein, right? La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. Just a quick note. Jessica did have to leave a little bit before we were done recording the episode. So if there are sections of the episode, it was like, are you just talking over a legend? No. She just simply was not here for those. She simply was not here.

And we love her so much. Yeah, she was amazing. Yes. Yeah. here and we love her so much yeah she was amazing yes yeah so if there are large chunks where jessica is not talking uh we recorded those after she had to leave and then edited them into the episode so with that let's uh plug our little pluggables yeah you can follow us online on twitter instagram facebook at bechtel cast um You can sign up for our Patreon, a.k.a. Matreon. Yeah. Two bonus episodes a month.

Only five bucks a month. And then you get the backlog, so you really get, like, 30 episodes. And then check out our TeePublic store. Get some merch at teepublic.com slash thebechtelcast. And as always, we love you so much. Thanks for listening. Yeah. Bye. Bye. we love you so much. Thanks for listening. Yeah. Bye.

Bye. Hey, y'all. Nimminy here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely

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