The Bechdel Cast - School of Rock with Nina Corcoran

Episode Date: August 24, 2017

We pledge allegiance, to the Bechdel Class, of Caitlin and Jamie, and our special guest Nina Corcoran will not fight us, for creative control, and will defer to them to all issues related to the musical direction of our School of Rock episode! (This episode contains spoilers) Follow @NinaCorcoran on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone     Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I mean, girl, is it. How long did you plan? Was it planned? Was it planned? No. I don't know. I'm nervous about this episode because I've only rewatched the movie once. I've had a half of an IPA.

Do you remember the time where I didn't watch the movie at all and then admitted it weeks later? The Matrix? The Matrix episode. Go back and listen if you want to hear some high-level bullshitting. I still haven't seen The Matrix to this day. Oh, man, it's pretty good. You wouldn't like it. I pretended to not like it, and I felt like that was maybe at the right.

I felt like I wasn't going to like it. My arm is covered. There's some creepy crawlies in my house, and they're eating me up. And so every time I leave my house, I've been spraying my entire floor in bug poison. But they've evolved, and my whole forearm is covered in. Hey, life finds a way. Don't. This is our episode.

Oh, no. I'm going to keep bringing it back to Jurassic Park. Well, we were saying that today's movie is what... You are to Jurassic Park as today's movie is to me, and then I like it, and you're like, eh, it's fine. I'm ambivalent, we'll say. Right. Oh, my God. I know.

And our guests could not be more excited about today. Well, it's three against one because Aristotle also loves this movie. Aristotle was reciting lines with me. It was so exciting. People love this movie. And okay, so let's just get into it. The movie today is School of Rock, directed by Richard Linklater, 2003. And our guest, I'm so excited, she's one of my best friends in the whole world. She is the music editor for Dig Boston. She's written for Pitchfork, Esquire, NPR. It's Nina Corcoran! Hello! Hello, everybody. I just knocked over

your ice cream. Which is also on brand. Eating ice cream, talking about School of Rock. I feel like we've probably eaten ice cream with disposable knives and talked about School of Rock more than one time. Yeah. I have like a very vivid memory of us being maybe a little bit intoxicated once or maybe sober. It could have gone either way, but we went to a Tedeschi's because you wanted to check in on Foursquare before you bought a pint of Ben & Jerry's so that the pint of Ben & Jerry's would be free.

Yeah, I used to do that all the time. And it worked. There was a thing where you would get a discount code. Foursquare doesn't do it anymore, but where you checked in the most, you're the mayor in certain places. You're the mayor of Tedeschi's so a lot of history on the cast today we're talking about school of rock okay well let's first discuss our history of this movie kate when did you see this movie for the first time i believe i saw it either right when it first came out in 03 or sometime shortly after that i don't know if i saw it in theaters or not

but i only saw it that once until I then re-watched it the other day to prepare for this episode. You said you could only watch it in five-minute chunks. Personally, I was triggered. I... look. Mad Max Fury Road. I think the better comparison... Don't say that, movie!

Do you just not like Jack Black? That's the only people I found who don't like it are people who don't like Jack Black. I it i mean yeah it's impossible to like this no heart i thought i certainly no i really don't i'm a wretched person with no heart i thought i liked him okay up until re-watching this movie and then i was like i find him well here's the thing i like my comedy to be a little more subtle than he delivers. But it's a Jack Black vehicle. And he's so subtle. In his defense, it's a very nuanced performance. Okay, I can't argue with that. However, he's just never not mugging the fuck out of whatever scene he's in.

I mean, the shot of the eyebrow truly says it all like could you be leaning into this anymore i still love it but yeah i saw it when it came out and then again and now i'm just like yeah i don't i don't think i like this movie so a more accurate thing than jurassic park which again i'm gonna keep bringing up today is i don't care for this movie you didn't care for mad max you said you like jurassic park okay yeah i feel like that's a more appropriate comparison i hated mad max and i hate steampunks and i was at i was at comic-con this weekend and i was it was a real test of the spirit a few casualties but not as many as one would think i first saw this movie in theaters memorably i think i've told i've actually talked about this

with you before because i grew up in brockton massachusetts my cousin and i went to see this movie with our aunt or her mom my aunt and someone in the movie theater got stabbed in the foot sometime during the second act of school of rock and we all had to leave and come back another day to see the end of school we saw it from the beginning but we didn't know how it ended for days wow and we were and at the time like there was google but we were 10 we didn't really use it so we were just like i wonder if they win i wonder if they can even go to the battle event because someone got stabbed in the foot and the movie theater was closed shortly after. Then we had the VHS. I've seen this movie easily 20 times.

It's like one of my favorites of all time. It's so good. Nina, what was your experience of the movie? I feel like I shouldn't list how many times I've seen it. No, please. But it's like definitely over 50. It's ridiculous. Lame? Maybe not. Incredible? Probably. I'd hope so. I can't stop. But my earliest memory is on a road trip and I watched that movie, just only that movie, the whole trip over and over. I watched it once and then I watched it with subtitles and then I watched the director's cut and then I watched it with subtitles. And then I watched the director's cut. And then I watched the one with all the commentary of them talking. And then we were in New Hampshire.

Which is a really good one. It is. It's so, and because they're like all young talking about it and getting excited seeing themselves on the screen. Yeah. This movie, it rules. It's so, it's so good. Yeah. I mean, that right there is four times the one car.

Right. It's a lot of views. good yeah i mean that right there is four times in one car right and i think that we were talking about before nina got here that i think that the age you were when this movie came out is critical to how you feel about the movie because we were the exact right aristotle was too we were all 10 or 11 when this movie came out and the movie's about 10 or 11 year olds starting a band with jack black yep and that still sounds like and now's like, maybe that's a little perverted. But at the time it was like, yeah, I want him to be my teacher. He's so cool.

Yeah, I was like a 16 probably. And I was too cool for school. You don't fucking have a timeline. But I think it has its merits but merits school of rock i it's merits well one of the reasons i am a make the grade it's uh well Sorry. One of the reasons that I'm a wretched person is that I do not like children. I don't like movies that star children. I do forget that you hate them. And child actors you hate as well. Child actors, get them out of here.

I hate most child actors, but all the child actors in this movie I have a crush on. So it's different. I mean, and they're 10 or 11. That's better than when you have like a six-year-old in a movie oh no thank you but even so the cast is largely children and i cannot get behind it do not endorse only adults who never work again but with the exception of one miranda cosgrove who one might argue was a star-making role for her, if by star-making you mean iCarly eventually. Wait, which character is that?

Summer. Okay. Band manager. Band manager. Also Tinkerbell. I'm here for all the nicknames in the movie. They sleep with the band. Slut shaming.

This movie. Okay, but I think that's on Jack Black because he made the children groupies. Well, yes. And groupies. But he could have induced it with the band. Historically. But he also then later says how they're like cheerleaders for it.

And I feel like. They're like merch people. Because that's the thing that seems weird. But then they're the ones charged with like designing the clothing, coming up with the name. And they're really excited about it. And then obviously when Summer isn't, he's like gives her the biggest job possible but mainly band manager he never actually tells her how to do it or what to do he lets her decide like the entire thing is her figuring out how to be a leader she like reads that whole book and then later they're like she's obsessed with david geffen

uh just some quick stats on this movie before we get into the recap this movie was the most successful musical comedy ever until pitch perfect 2 like two years ago which i refuse to see because of that i am like pitch perfect franchise needs to grow up and let school of rock have its place in history so this is a richard linklater movie let's name some big ones because i i have seen a handful of his movies i have not like a super fan sure but so my favorite of his is before sunrise before sunset i can take your leave before midnight maybe i need to revisit it but those first two especially of the before trilogy i haven't seen those. They are so fucking good. I love them so much.

I hate romance movies. I hate romance in general. I hate children. I hate everything that's good about the world. Can I say it? Yeah. So,

Kaylin loves Before Sunrise so much that she has a sketch on the World Wide Web that is a Before Sunrise Twilight crossover. Oh, man.

And it's really good. Thanks. Check it out on her website. Check out Before Sunrise Twilight crossover. And it's really good. Thanks. Check it out on our website. Check out Before Twilight on the internet. Once you know what it is, I just didn't know what it was at first. But then once I saw, I understood. It's a low-budget production

written and edited by a one... It's a low-budgie. ...Kaitlyn Durante. It's an indie. It's an indie... It's got the indie cred. It's an indie fave. Yeah.

It's an indie darling. Cult following. fave yeah but an indie darling cult following linklater is also famous uh linklater is also famous for days and confused boyhood and then last year he did everybody wants some which i did see oh i did which can uh suck my ass did not like it rich okay, we'll get into it. Let's go through School of Rock, which I think we can all agree is his best movie. I mean, I legitimately, of what I've seen of his, I like School of Rock better than Dazed and Confused. I like it better than Boyhood. I like it better than Everybody Wants Some.

I'm pretty sure that's all I've seen. Nearing 100th view, and I can say it's still great. It holds. Like, however many years later than when I first saw it. Even the joke about fucking kids is still funny. I touched your children. And I think they touched me too. It's so funny.

Okay, let's do the recap. All right, here we go. This is going to be a fun one. This is going to be, so Nina, so you know, interjections allowed, but Kaelin's also allowed to yell back. I, oh God. Okay. School of Rock is the story of Dewey? Finn.

Finn. Yeah. Yeah. He's so fucking cool, man. He's in a rock band. With Adam Pascal of Rent and Aida. And that person was in the Once musical. Is that the one with the longer hair?

Who's like, Dewey, we're friends, man. No. Wait, was that guy in the Once musical? That little skinny one who's in his band? Yeah, I went to see with my mom. Good for him. And I was like, oh my God, I'm starstruck. The man from School of Rock.

I was obsessed with Adam Pascal. Yeah, he did a good job. He's great in this movie. He's like, because he's like, I'm shirtless and you don't fit in. You're not hot enough for the band. So Dewey Finn, he's in a rock band. He loves rock music. He does too many guitar solos at their shows.

And the band's like, well, we're going to kick you out. He's like, no. Meanwhile, his roommate, Ned. Mike White, who also wrote the movie. He has a girlfriend played by Sarah Silverman. Shrew number one. We will call her shrew number one. She's one of three shrews that appear throughout the film.

Right. Shrew number one is like, you need to start paying rent, Dewey. You're freeloading too much. Poor Sarah Silverman. Damn it, job. Yeah. She's wearing a turtleneck 100% of the time. I think she's treated,

of all the female characters, I think she's treated the worst. Agree. Yeah. And her talents are so wasted in this movie. She's so funny. I love Sarah Silverman. I hope she paid her rent for three years. Off of having to wear all those turtlenecks. Yeah. So she's like, you

gotta start paying rent. And Dewe like, you got to start paying rent. And Dewey, he's down on his luck. He's all out of sorts. And then he gets a phone call intended for his roommate, Ned, but it's from this prestigious private school. Oh, and I do love that the first act is real. Like the inciting incident is a good old-fashioned landline mix-up couldn't happen today the little hello this is ned shneebly like great part anyways so they give him a call and dewey answers and they're looking for a substitute teacher which also mind you he's in the middle of getting calls trying to sell his gear pawning it off as like ridiculous things

which it is not but making an effort to make rent selling things he doesn calls trying to sell his gear, pawning it off as ridiculous things, which it is not. But making an effort to make rent selling things he doesn't want to sell that mean a lot to him. Right. Which he makes clear is for his... Mike White is the first person I remember in my entire life realizing that you could have blonde eyelashes. Didn't know.

So he says specifically, and this is another reason where it's like no one is nice to sarah silverman in this movie everyone's afraid of her uh where he's like i'll do it for you but not for that turtleneck bitch you know he doesn't say it but i think he almost says worse so anyways but yes it's implied either way So he gets this call and he pretends to be Ned Schneebly. And so he goes to this school pretending to be a substitute teacher. And it's a classroom full of all these young youths of America. And they're accustomed to a very strict academic regimen.

And they're like, are you going to teach us or what? And he's just like, I'm hungover. And he's very not into it. He's really just there to try to make some money. Another great exchange. I didn't know what hungover meant when I saw this movie. Me neither. And the movie literally teaches you.

Does that mean you're drunk? No, it means I was drunk yesterday. That means you're an alcoholic. No, it doesn't. Which isn't always true. That's a more square rectangle thing. So he's having a hard time connecting with these kids at first and then he's like wait a minute what if i start teaching them music so forget about the english eyebrow part yeah because he hears because he hears him playing music and goes and it's like

dang right play it's very impressed and he says that without words yeah he just the eyebrows say it all and then some that's a whole script in the eyebrows he as each wave some people are not gonna like the eyebrow wave but i think that he saved about three pages of dialogue with the eyebrow right because so uh principal joan kuzak comes in she's like it's time for their music lesson so he hears them playing music he's like, it's time for their music lesson. So he hears them playing music. He's like, wait a minute. They're musicians.

This kid plays the acoustic guitar. I can teach him how to play electric guitar. This other girl plays the cello. She's now the bass. Which, by the way, insane that in this world, Jack Black has never heard of a cello. He's like, what was that thing? Cello, you've got a bass. That's also, she says like two or three lines in the whole movie and that's one of them but i also i'm pretty sure that's

because of a choice thing really i well because i looked at she's like one of we were also talking because first of all she was hashtag aristotle's crush of the movie second of all she and i were born on the exact same date really august 1892 so you played bass so cello it's a bass um but also she was also never in anything ever again she did do her own i know way too much she did her own youtube series of her playing music really under her real name i think she changed the name of it i wish i remembered it right now but she did for a really long time because all those people who had a crush on her found it and were like, oh my god, she did

become the music girl of my dreams. Rebecca Brown. Fun fact, she became Rebecca Black and now has a hit song. That's Friday. Oh, look. Cosmopolitan.com slash UK. This school of rock child actress actually became a rock star.

Subhead. Jack Black totally called it. I hate subheads so much. But you need it. The people need to click. Anyways, sorry, let's carry on. Okay, we'll get back to her. It's a long hole. So this whole classroom full of students, he's like, all right, he signs roles.

He's like, you're going to be the lead guitar. You're the bass player. You're the keyboard. And then there's other kids in the class who I guess aren't important. So he's like, or they're not musically talented. So he's like, you can be a groupie. You're going to design the costumes. Hey, you're the lighting guy now.

Which is all important. It's not that that's not important. It's important. Don't be dismissive of other roles. They totally are. You're speaking to a music journalist. I know. Watch your words.

What I meant to say. I will write something mean on the internet and only I can do it. Jack Black totally called it. Kayla Durante sucks. I told you I'm wretched. Okay, sorry. I misspoke. What I meant is I guess they're not cool enough to be in the band or whatever.

Anyway. Just because you're not in the band doesn't mean you're be in the band or whatever anyway just cause you're not in the band doesn't mean you're not in the band but he does overlook them at first at first he's like

you can watch yeah and then he has to like I guess too excited about the music right cool it Dewey

Jack basically Dewey Dewey and then they enter he's like we're gonna enter the battle of the bands

contest because he is now without a band so he's using these children to have his own rock band again that's what this movie is about anyway so he i don't understand what the process is meanwhile he's like fooling principal joan kuzak and she she's shrew number two she's like fooling Principal Joan Cusack and she's shrew number two. She's like, rules, rules, rules. You're not allowed to take a field trip, blah, blah, blah. And then things culminate to a point where people figure out that he's been lying this whole time. And they're like, you're not Ed. And you know who busts him?

Shrew number one. Shrew number one. Yeah. Have we named shrew number three? We have not. Oh, okay. She is Summer, the band manager. Miranda Cosgrove.

A very young, adorable, doe-eyed Miranda Cosgrove. Can't sing. She cannot sing and she idolizes David Geffen. She rules. Can I just, really quick, Rebecca Brown, my birthday twin, is now performing in Spamilton in Chicago, which is a parody musical of Hamilton. And it's also in Chicago. She's doing great. She has an Instagram account.

She has an Instagram. She's doing great. She's I look forward to our shared birthday. Maybe I'll go. I'm going to Chicago next week. Maybe I'll go to Spamilton Chai. Please do. Anyways, the end. She's doing fine okay cool cool cool she has like three lines in the movie but she's fine now people find out that he is not actually ned ned schneebley and he gets in trouble and he gets fired from his job there are police there he doesn't get arrested good for him

and then the kids are like but wait we still want to do battle of the bands so they go to his house get him out of bed he's not wearing a shirt you do see his nipples and then they're like come on they're hard they're not soft they're like come on we're going to the battle of the bands so he drives them in his van to battle of the bands they play a song it's great they't win, but everyone's like, School of Rock, encore, please. It's an encore. So they play another song, and everything ends up fine. The end.

Ooh la la la, ooh la la la. Well, they start School of Rock, which is a real thing in the world. Yeah, it's like a real after-school program, right? Yeah. Was it a real thing before the movie had to be? There was, like, not controversy, but apparently they started writing this script and then that was also happening but it wasn't meant as like a you know true story of the people who started that program right and the title was gonna be something different or they almost had to change it to

something else the school of rock title because of the program oh interesting i mean i'm sure that guy was like that's not my life and it's like yeah and then they were like if anything this is gonna help boost sales it had to have because i'm sure people assumed it was like every city though yeah yeah because i remember they literally every city every single city they have one in boston don't they yeah also i think it's funny to mention i I have not seen this musical, but School of Rock has been adapted for the stage on Broadway by none other than my boy and yours, Andrew Lloyd Webber. He and a guy from Downton Abbey. I mean, if we're talking about the man, Andrew Lloyd Webber really does just fit right in there as does anyone associated with Downton Abbey. But anyway, it's a very successful Broadway musical now as well.

Although I'm willing to bet it stinks. My mom called me when they debuted one of the songs on the Today Show so I could watch it. It must have been in college when it came out. Yeah, it was in 2013. And I was not impressed because it deviates ever so slightly from the script which i have memorized and boy was my brain not into it but there's also the tv show on nickelodeon i don't know if it's still happening yeah there

was i when was that on i i did not watch that i think we were too old for that it premiered in 2016 let's see if it's still on it is a research third season wow so school of rock all that to say the story ages very well people love a timeless tale rock people are always going to school people always want to make school cool. And that's why School of Rock holds up till this very day. And scene. No, just kidding. Okay. I think that there's a lot to talk about in terms of how female characters are treated in this movie. And also, I think expanding that to Richard Linklater a little bit would be helpful.

Because I was doing some background research. And my research made me like Richard Linklater less. Partially because his most recent film, Everybody Wants Some, is just a big, I mean, have you guys seen it? No.

So it's about, it's loosely based on Richard Linklater's freshman year of college in the 1980s and it's about boy, not boyfriends, it's about friends that are boys, like boy tribes's a very animal house kind of several different boyhoods are coming together into one boy's movie but like like barely thought out it's it's a it's a fucking drag it's a real drag there's a lot of jokes at the expense of women almost every shot of a girl and you know

richard richard linklater in interviews is like well but that's how an 18 year old boy would see it and it's like but also if you're a boy seeing it then that's how you're taught to view women anyways good uh what an idiot uh but in response to sorry i'm i'm like hijack you can cut this out if you want please in please i cannot wait no i mean please go on okay um so also he's directed a movie called boy i mean i i enjoyed boyhood i thought you know it's a cool film it was fine i liked it what did you did you like it was good i'm impressed that he got the same people to stay on for a long time right like means he's agreeable also like the thing i remember most is like a wordless probably like 30 second thing of when he's really young and the boyfriend's like a dead bird a dead something dead in the backyard i think and he like doesn't

say he just says like death what is it i was like wow i'm glad they included this dead animal they got me thinking that's what i think of when I think of that movie. And then his horrible acting at the end. Yeah. Painful. I mean, he really rolled the dice on that. And sometimes you're going to get a Haley Joel Osment. Most times, you're not.

Haley Joel Osment, if you're listening, please come on the podcast. We're waiting for you. You can do any movie you want. Freaking answer. Answer my tweets. You don't have to do six cents what's the movie you like i just want to know more about forrest gump i just want to know more about things that he likes maybe he's into some weird shit if you're into some weird shit

for sure hit me up um anyways everybody wants some uh received generally positively people are like it's a you know an ode to boys what movie fucking isn't christopher nolan just released a movie i keep calling boy city uh oh dunkirk dunkirk yeah there's anyways yeah why isn't there a girlhood hello because well because everyone wants to jerk off to themselves and i get that richard linklater's a man and he's able to make movies because he's a man so he's gonna jerk off to himself however so he retaliates not retaliates but makes makes a strategic move as as some people do uh after people are like uh everybody wants them is uh making fun of women a lot and the women who are in it are only objectified. And then he says, well, I am executive producing a women's film now. So he signs on to executive produce a friend of his who's making a movie.

Her name is Katie Kokonos. And the name of the movie is I Dream Too Much. It was an indie movie. It came out a couple months ago at this point. And he does an interview, a crummy interview with Vanity Fair, in which he sort of discusses why he feels that women aren't being given opportunities in film. Oh, I'd love to hear his insights. And he's got some really interesting thoughts. So, question. Why was this the project that finally got you to step into a producing role? His answer. Well, I like that it's one of the few young women's films that isn't really centered around a guy or getting a guy or breaking up with a guy. I like that Katie had a real strong vision for a young woman, her own dreams, her own aspirations.

And I thought, that's pretty damn unique. You don't see that a lot. There needs to be more voices like that out there first of all thank you so fucking much because i'm always around trying to get the guy break up with the guy and it never occurred to me you know that's pretty damn unique he says you do what you can but i think it's just an access question i think a lot of women in general want to talk about their experience of youth like boyhood days to confuse everybody wants them etc i think they're probably a little more hesitant in the film world to say oh my own story that's worthy of seminar cinema jesus christ

well i have to go overdose in the bathroom to continue to quote i remember doing some interviews on everybody wants some and people were like why aren't there any good female roles your film's very male there's no women in it i'd always say well if you feel there's a void i did executive produce this other movie so when that film opens i hope you care or pay attention because it's out there so instead of uh saying hey maybe i should write a female character that isn't uh horror virgin or shrew go see what this other person made i gave her ten thousand dollars and uh i would like credit for that so he's basically saying he's he's very like pat on the back thank you for trying

that like i don't like it oh god the his blind oh it's so unique to have a woman tell her own story you just don't see that that much but gee do you fucking have any idea why you stupid idiot right and also the implication is like women are just this is just starting to occur to them that they too grew up and they too have had feelings that weren't just about how horny they are for me or my fucking friends and now that they're having these feelings i'm tossing them a fucking bone and it's just like uh so that interview really and this is an interview from this year made me really want to like look back at some of his because because from what what I can tell, and I haven't seen them all, it seems like his treatment of women is kind of movie to movie.

Because I felt, as I remember, I wasn't watching it for this podcast, but Boyhood I didn't think was incredibly unfair to his... I don't know. Yeah, nothing really struck me. With the Before trilogy, it's really just two main characters, Ethan Hawke's character and Julie Dupley's character. And Julie Dupley's character is solid. It's a very character-driven, mostly dialogue.

Not a ton happens in any of the movies, except for just developing their relationship. But her character is very, like, she's very outspoken she has opinions she voices them right but then i would argue in days and confused women are not treated very well i don't remember it that well so i can't speak much to it in general i mean as a rule there you know it is a male focus film and the women are objectified i would say kind of in the same way as everybody wants them which he himself connects the two movies as like yeah it's like a spiritual sequel kind of thing and that

it's about young boys who just want to fuck so anyways it it does seem like there's a lot of nuance here in terms of like movie to movie so let's bring it back to school of freaking rock okay okay so that's my i think my criticism is over for the episode i did want to bring up because that i reading that interview really pissed me off well that one quote what you pointed out to the like this being unique and putting it's just putting i like i don't know i feel like this happens a lot in life, not even just in quote form, but where women having like original quote unquote ideas and being like remotely creative or deviating from this setup of like, I don't even know. I feel like it's just this big thing of putting someone on a pedestal for having an idea, which is not of like a normal, like having ambition. Well, he's completely failing to acknowledge the fact that women don't get the same opportunities in hollywood to make movies and right the few times that a woman is

directing a movie it's seen as this novel thing oh how original how unique and it's just because we've been pushed down all throughout the history of filmmaking and also life in general, society. Yeah, history of the world. Right. It is. And like the way that quote, especially. Yeah, it's sort of the same quote where it sounds like. And maybe this was taken out of context.

But I mean, it sounds like Richard Linklater thinks that women are just starting to direct movies because it just occurred to them. Right. women are just starting to direct movies because it just occurred to them right that they might have a story worth telling where it's actually been centuries uh well not implement but you know like it's been at least a century-long struggle to even get one percent representation which i think is about still where we're we're at pretty close uh in terms of directing anyways so uh that's dumb uh but back to school of rock and it's female characters let's talk about principal mullins okay because i think she she has i guess the most story of any female character i would say so i love her i don't know how well she's treated by the story, but as a character, I love her.

She's in charge. She's very good at her job. She is respected by... To some degree. But she is by pretty much everybody, I feel like. Because I don't think anyone thinks she's doing a bad job. Right. So liking someone and then not respecting them

are really different. Sure. She's respected, but I think she acknowledges, and then there's also a are really different sure yeah i they she's respected but i think she acknowledges and then there's also a scene uh like in the teacher's lounge where she's like harping on about something and dewey is like is she always like this and they're like oh yeah like she they don't really see her as like someone which is makes sense because she's their superior boss like that yeah we're yeah, he's so fucking uptight.

And then there's that scene where they go out to coffee, which ends up being a giant mug of beer instead of coffee. She's like, you sure you don't have coffee? And he's like, oh, I'm sure. She's so good. Afterward, she's like, no one thinks I'm cool. I had to become this bitch. And he's like, no one thinks I'm cool. I had to become this bitch. And he's like, no, no, no, you're cool. So I kind of like that scene where she's like, this role made me have to be a certain way, or at least she feels that way.

And she's acknowledging that because I'm maybe a woman in power, I had to assume this role to be respected. And I like that she acknowledges that and that the movie addresses it. Isn't the most poignant thing ever? No. But they do it. Yeah, they do it. I remember when I was a kid, too, that really stuck out to me because it was like the only, it felt like the only point in the movie that was like legitimately serious.

Like I didn't fully understand what it was they're getting i also like didn't even know that she mouthed the word bitch i was like what is what she's saying but because it does like it does get serious and he visibly seems uncomfortable because i think he feels bad for thinking she's uptight but having her talk about that like she felt like she had to become this uptight version and couldn't really balance both well because most movies will have a role very similar to hers where it's like the boss she's a shrew she's very uptight and we only see her in that role we never see her like you don't get that moment have be like yeah i i know that i've become this i didn't ever want to be this person but this is who i had to become to be respected in this role yeah that's so that a great point. First of all, Joan Cusack fucking rules.

Every line read she gives in this movie is the best line read. I wonder how, I feel like she never had to do a second take. She also has, like, really good off, I think, lines that she came up with for improv stuff that's seen in the teacher's lounge where they're, like, after she stops giving her speech and Jack Black's like, oh, is she always like that? They, like, pan to her with their conversation, the main one, but in the background she're like, after she stops giving her speech and Jack Black's like, oh, is she always like that? They like pan to her with their conversation, the main one up in the background. She's like, and then the turkey sandwiches

touch the peanut butter tray. And you know this is a big deal. And I'm like, Joan, killing it. It sounds so serious, too. And the way she's like always like a little bit hunched over. She's like, I know. And she does really good pursed lips always, especially when drinking that beer or sipping it really slowly.

She's really allowed to Joan out in this movie, which is so good. I also appreciate that the story does not push her and Dewey together romantically. It's maybe a little bit implied, but for the most part, i think it's mostly a friendship where even at one point she asks if he'll go to parents night with her and she's like it's not a date or anything i just like being around you makes me feel more comfortable which is friendship and i don't think she really necessarily has the vocabulary for friendship unfortunately

but like it would have been another super easy choice for this movie to be like, and then the uptight principal and the cool fucking sort of pervert substitute teacher make love. And having it phrased too in a way where that absolutely could have happened, especially then. I feel like that steals whatever progress

she's made as being something that he showed her how to do instead of her just realizing she doesn't have to be that way if she doesn't want to. Right. And yeah, it's like she by the end, she's not doing. I mean, I guess she's maybe doing a little bit less of a good job in that she's endorsing the School of Rock. But also it's like she doesn't really have to sacrifice anything i feel the way a lot of female characters have to where she does her job throughout including the greatest line read ever of i've just been informed that your kids are

missing shrug which is so good but she doesn't really like nothing is taken from her which was also refreshing as she continues you know we assume she continues to have her job it's implied at the end that maybe she's gonna hook up with the new guitarist wearing the half leather jacket the most uncomfortable like two every time every time washes i like have to look away i can't it's like too too much uncomfortable because he's like it's all on him dude you're hot and she's like and there's that tattoo on his abs it's awful every bit so funny but And she's like, hot. And there's that sex tattoo on his abs. It's awful. Every bit. It's so funny.

But again, it's like she is, at first glance, a shrewish character. But for me, that is subverted enough through the story and actually giving her character some attention and an arc of... I feel like her arc is she realizes she doesn't need to be i mean and i guess this does speak to the truth like you don't have to be so fucking uptight but i think she like in the context of this character she realizes she can be more herself and still be very good at her job and this is sort of a male-imposed level like you can like fleetwood mac and be a good private school principal which is you know it's not the perfect lesson but i i like it yeah it worked for me yeah i mean she's sort of adhering to this like society's rules dictate

that i have to be this very uptight especially because it's like the private school sector. These kids' parents are paying $15,000 a year for them to attend, which actually is not that much. I was like considering college. Well, that and I've known of like private elementary or maybe it was high schools. I don't know. But that shit costs so much money. It's O3, baby. True. Lucy Goosey. I almost said pre-9-11 it wasn't it was it was first well no first second bush admin first half of the second bush admin different it was weird i did want to bring up that this movie comes out just at the sort of as the man-child trope is really taken off. And it's going to stick with us till this fucking day. Seth Rogen is still around.

He's still alive. Did you know no one's harpooned him yet? That's how he's going to go. This is one of the foretold. I'm going to harpoon him. I've threatened to do it before. I hate the man-child trope but in this again this movie is a big fat exception where it just works i don't know it just works that's why i think that that's what it is it's the man-child surrounded by

literal children and i can't handle that many children in a movie which is fair i did i did want to bring that up because that is a huge pet peeve of mine that, again, in this movie just gets a full pass. And I openly love him. Let's talk about the female students. Can we talk about Tamika? Yes. Tamika is like by far, I always think she's the best character in this whole movie. I think so too.

So she's the student who he calls turkey sub originally, which I thought was because she was heavy, but it's because he takes a turkey sub out of her desk the first day. He steals her lunch. For so long I was like, this is my biggest complaint in this movie. Why are you fat shaming this wonderful girl? Well, also the movie made the choice to have her be the only character with food in her desk. Oh, that's true.

Or that was like willing to share it. True, maybe she's just a very generous person.'s great yeah she's great he does take her turkey so yeah so with her the fact that like she's very quiet gets assigned i think security as a job and then comes up to him after and it's like i actually want to be a singer and is too afraid to sing and stuff and then overcomes that sings has like an incredible voice. So good. Just like that scene before, I think it's the auditions for the Battle of the Bands

where she gets too nervous and pulls him aside. I go back to all the time and every time I watch it, I feel like the older I've gotten, the more I appreciate the language in that scene because she says that

she's too nervous to sing and he asks why and she says, I'm afraid they're going to laugh at me that they're going to call me fat. And he says like, Tamika, that's not's not a problem and like he it's just the wording is like he never actually says like you're not overweight or like you're not because she is a bit heavier and he also isn't like you can go on a diet or like try to make her feel like there's

other options he just says like what you want to do is what you want to do and being fat isn't that's not equivalent to being ugly. And there's, like, so much throughout all of that. And he goes and says, like, you know, Aretha Franklin, she's a big lady, but she goes on stage, she can sing. Everyone wants to party with Aretha. It's like the best party with Aretha. It's impossible. And then he's like, and, you know, me, like, I have a weight issue, too.

She asks why he doesn't go on a diet. And he just says, because I like to eat. Is that a problem? And then goes on to say, but then people worship me and accept me when I'm up there. And then just basically says, you can sing if you want to, but it's up to you. And the fact that he's not like, you're not,

I promise, let's just do this. And that it's still up to her to decide. Right, he gives her the choice. It's always so, re-watching it warms my little heart. It's great. I mean, I do like that scene. The fact that he doesn't shame her, that he's like heart it's a great i mean i do like the fact that he doesn't shame her that he's like it's okay to eat or be overweight as long as you're comfortable

with yourself i'm just like wow especially i feel like movies of that time are so bad with that when i go back to re-watch well and richard link litter movies are historically pretty bad with that i mean this is written by mike white so good guy, Mike White. Good guy, pale eyelashes. Blonde eyelashes, Mike White. The blonde eyelash to God. We know as Mike White. But you're totally right. As I've gotten older and watched that scene,

it is kind of remarkable how it holds up pretty much 100% in the way. And Tamika is just cool. She's fucking cool and so talented and she's wearing her avril lavigne out everyone looks like blink-182 or avril lavigne they all have those like hair pieces that are bright pink that i always wish i had but i was not cool enough but then i learned i was just had to believe you were just like lawrence exactly mr cool well that's i wanted to talk about the kid because. The kid.

The kid. All of the, the story treats, there's like two male students that have arcs and then two female students that have arcs. And then the rest are kind of tertiary, which is fine. They're not all going to have an arc. But I did like that sort of regardless of gender, all the students were treated with either respect or not respect, depending where we're at in the movie, by Dewey. Which I think is a testament to even though he's a man-child character, he is respectful of the students and really does listen to them. And there's scenes where he's collaborating with them and treating them just as equals. Right. No more secret songs or or when my favorite part where they're collaborating was when zach in zach's song in zach's secret song where rock is the reason rock is the rhyme and he's like no

no no rock got no reason rock got no right i'm like you guys are just fucking pals i love it like but oh and then he says too right after right after that, because he's like, suggests that, and Zach's like, okay. Because they all have been taught. I mean, their parents are all, like, super strict and terrifying. Right. Especially his. And then he's like, well, no, no, no. Like, it's a suggestion.

This is your song. Like, it's up. And it's just like, so nice. I'm like, wow, you respect children. Who does? Not enough people. Not me. We're changing the lyrics sorry like but

like seeing that when you're probably again like seeing that when you're like 11 you're just like yeah cool and when he does that whole song of like teaching them to basically like flip off whatever stresses them off yeah and it's like what angers you and then i forget her name the brace face girl says homework and then the I forget her name, the Braceface Girl says homework. And then the adorable, like, smallest child of the bunch is just like bullies. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a whole other movie here.

I think what bothered me about the dynamic of the band, at least, is that all the main parts of the band at least is that all the main parts of the band which is zach gets lead guitar lawrence gets keyboard who's the drummer spazzy mcgee little little likes to burn stuff the little rebel oh yeah what do you like to do your time oh no burn stuff he's like okay recess forever sorry okay and then there's the bass player whose name is katie yeah so she august 18 1992 great day for everyone she's pretty much the only because you can the backup vocals they're kind of backup so if we're just like isolating the main members the front men of the band we only have one girl she gets very little lines of dialogue not a lot of screen time weirdly

enough her main moment is and i know you know is the exchange she has with freddie aka spazzy mcgee about meg white about meg white yeah two good female drummers and then she i mean she names at least one good female i'm not a huge meg white no that's also wait go for it go for it no that's something that like there's so many drummers that get credited who have simple beats who just like do what she is doing and she's doing what they're doing who get credited as like being like Ringo everyone always makes jokes about how he's not a super intricate drummer or anything but like she has a simple part if you play drums every day and go on tour all the time like she can play she can do stuff beyond that but that's just her role

right and people always like I don't know there was a really good really really good piece on Meg White and like how she doesn't get the respect she's deserved and has always been like the butt of the joke on Hazel. It maybe. Oh, okay. I have to look it up. But like,

so when she names those people and does like Sheila E, Meg White from the white stripes and he's like, she can't drum. She's like, she's, she's better drummer than you. That, that,

I mean, that was a great, yeah. Especially cause like, I feel, I feel like it's like trying to balance it, but she, I've always been under the impression that Katie doesn't talk because she didn't want to I think

when the they had rehearsals which I also like to be idealist and think like they didn't have a lot of girls I'd like try out for the other parts maybe they did I don't know there's still I'm sure sexism that comes into play there in terms of who you choose but uh I think they chose her because she was really good at bass and she didn't want to talk. Because even when Jack Black is telling her how to do those big poofy lips and stuff, I'm pretty sure she doesn't talk at all during that. She's not even like, okay, no one-syllable words or anything.

And at the end, she's the only one in the credits who doesn't solo. And you can tell because of editing, I think either she did or she didn't because she gets scared on camera oh so she's also like clearly still does music right but i think she was someone who was like wanted to play and do this and they wanted to have her and i think we're almost or i don't know but it seems like they were like we care enough about having you that it's okay if you don't have a lot of lines okay because she has a lot of the iconic stuff with, like, the cello

that she could have been more involved in. But she just, like, always looks terrified. Right. Yeah. Then make the keyboard player a girl. Or, like, I don't know. There were more opportunities to have more of, like, the main band be one of those characters or more than one be a girl.

I agree. And with lines and an arc and stuff like that. I mean, that said, three, if you're not including Jack Black, three of the four main people are white. Lawrence is the only one who's a person of color. That's something else, too, that I, re-watching, feel like their class is more diverse than, I feel like for a private school, probably more diverse than what I imagine it would be. Right. Yeah. In terms of casting.

Right. I agree in terms of the band, but in terms of the class as a whole, we do get two male student arcs, two female student arcs. The female student arcs are Tamika and Summer. The male student arcs are Zach and Lawrence. So in that way, I agree in terms of musical representation, but in terms of the story, I felt pretty good watching it this time. Summer does get her arc of she's the little shrew, basically, and is originally presented as an annoyance and a foil to Jack Black trying to just goof off.

But by the end, he's like, she's going to be the first female president, which still could be true. Could be. Yeah, he's like, she's going to be the first female president, which still could be true. Could be. Go for it, Miranda. We loved you in Drake and Josh. We loved you in iCarly. Time to become the president. And I feel like they try, given time limit, too, because it probably could have gone longer. And a lot of the montages try to show, mean as any film does growth between people but i really like that they show gordo gordon lizzie mcguire the gordo the little boy who

handles the lights and like technology stuff because they during their like the final like battle of the band scene too they show him and like his work often and from his perspective also the person watching him is a female light technician and not uh or like stagehand person and not a boy which like if you think of like on stage representation off stage is like way less sure yeah music industry so i was like wow that's nice and like not what i thought it would be when i noticed that later in life so i like that they show his stuff and like actually give it credit they just like credit kids as being smart and capable of learning a lot which is pretty true

yeah and hard to disagree kids can't learn school is a waste of time and like one of the best and most exciting things of seeing this movie when you're a kid is being like I'm a kid and I can do stuff that's why representation

is so important that's why we need more school of rock that's what i was gonna say well and also better representation of women yeah great for sure um does this movie pass the bechdel test yes yes it does so there's a scene where although do we know that teacher's name? Where the principal is talking to a lady teacher and she's like, don't have the peanut butter sandwiches. We don't know her name. Touch the other sandwiches. That scene does not pass.

At least there are two women interacting. Yes. It does happen. It doesn't happen as much as it should. There's no scene Sarah Silverman is in that I saw that passes the Bechdel test. Right. Unforged. But there are. So there's a scene between John Cusack and a child where she's yelling at the child, but also like, do you want a hug? And she's like, no. And then she's like, OK, have a good day, Emily. That passes the test and then there's a scene right after that I think that it does pass because I think she's talking to one of the teachers who we learn has a name in a previous scene even though I don't remember it off the top of my head

when Jack Black leaves the school where she's like yeah the teacher slipped but we've got to substitute so she's technically talking about she's like talking about her job because it's about him filling in and explaining what he does either way it already passes.

But minimally. There are so many opportunities for like the three backup singers who are all girls to be like, hey, I like to sing. Me too. Like they could have talked. There could have been... There were more opportunities that were missed. For sure.

Especially I imagine just like natural conversation that would have occurred that would have been, there were more opportunities that were missed. For sure. Sure. Especially, I imagine, just like natural conversation that would have occurred that would have been relevant. Yeah. Between everyone. Summer, as the band manager, was controlled, like, you know, had jurisdiction over everybody. She could have talked to the backup singer. She could have talked to the bass player. All kinds of people. But we don't see any of those scenes.

So, let's all give School of Rock a nipple rating on our famous nipple rating scale. And this is not how much you like the movie, but how well you think it treats women on a scale of one to five. And then we're going to need some description of those nips. I'm going to give this movie a three and a half nipples. Okay. Because Richard Linklater in a whole whole i give him a punch in the mouth uh as of right now that interview really bothered me but this movie uh the shrew problem is almost entirely responsible for why i'm gonna knock off points and i think if i was really being

honest it's more of a three three and a half though the shrew the shrewishness especially of the sarah silverman character which is like a double punt in the gut because it's like don't do that to sarah fucking silverman are you kidding every scene she's in she's like right so that's not fair um but we do see growth in our main female character principal rosalie mullins played by joan joan out I appreciate that they sort of take a stereotype and whether intentionally or not, at least subvert it. Tamika, amazing. Summer has you know, she has an arc.

She goes on to become iCarly. It's all good. I'm giving the nipples too. I'm giving two of them to Adam Pascal because he's going to need them. He's going to film Rent for 2005. He's busy. He's going to need those nipples. I'm not going of them to Adam Pascal because he's going to need them. He's going to film Rent for 2005. He's busy. He's going to need those nipples.

I'm not going to take them away from him. I'm assuming that whoever we don't give nipples to ceases to have them. I'm giving one blonde nipple to Mike White. Very pale. And then I'm giving the last half a nipple to Spezzie McGee. Okay. Yeah. I'm going the last half a nipple to Spezzie McGee. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to go with four.

I went in originally thinking more, but then hearing a lot of your thoughts about it made me change my mind, which makes sense. Because Sarah Silverman really doesn't at all, which is the one I knew ahead. But then Joan, I feel like I always thought of her more as changing. But there often isn't because the lines she has are in the background. But I want to give it to kids as an award, but then I'm also like, no, that's wrong. This is a safe space. Give the children nipples.

They need them. Or so humanity will cease to be. Who will we milk? It feels too weird, so I'm not going to. I'm going to give it to one to Jack Black's ex-bandmate who was in once because my mom loves that musical good for him shout out to that guy i'm gonna give one to no i'm gonna give two to that woman who works behind the board the soundboard at battle of the bands yeah respect

her and then uh i'll give one to joan she deserves it she deserves it she earned it She's worked so hard. I'm going to give it two and a half nipples. I'm sorry, but it's still largely a man's movie. Jack Black steals the show. And by that, I mean... He's giving the show. He steals it? The show's written for him. It's his show.

And a lot of his interactions are with other boys in the band so it's still a very male heavy movie the female characters that there are as we pointed out are often very like uptight high strung turtleneck so and then of the ones who turn like vibe of the ones who aren't barely get any screen time to Tamika, great character. I love her. She doesn't get a ton of screen time or lines. Doesn't play a huge role in the story, as tender and wonderful as her scene is, where she's like, I'm afraid people are going to laugh at me because I'm fat.

Sarah Silverman, Summer, Principal, Joan Cusack, they're all like, which is fine. There are people like that. That's totally cool. But let's see a broader representation of women. There are people like that. That's totally cool. But let's see a broader representation of women. There are other types of women like me, wretched, but also cool. Anyway, so I give it two and a half nipples. They belong to Jack Black, the nipples that we see that the children also see.

And then the half nipple goes to I'm going to say Julie Deppley from Before Sunrise because we see her nipples in Before Midnight actually so that's the half nipple. Do you ever think Jack Black and Jack White hang out? Anyways. Every day. Thank you so much

Nina. Thank you. Where can people find you online? I'm on the internet on the Twitter. My name is Nina Cork, and that's my handle with an underscore. Hell yeah. You can find me in print in Dig Boston if you live in the city. And otherwise, my name is very Google-able. There's not a lot of us Nina Corcorans out there. We won't.

A lacrosse player and a cool girl who lives in Canada. Hell yeah. We'll tag the shit out of you. There's a lot of Jamie Laudis's out there and I almost hooked up with one one time. Whoa. More on that later. Another story for another day. Alright. Thanks for listening to the Bechtelcast. You can find us on Twitter at

Bechtelcast. You can find us on Instagram at Bechtelcast. We just got a website. It's Bechtelcast.freakingcom. Give us money. We need money really bad. There's a place to click for money for us, which we need. Money for us is good always. We're coming to New York

in September. Come to that. I keep wanting to say September 11th. It's not. It's not. September 9th. It's September 9th. We're all fine. We're going to have a great time. At the Cinderblock Comedy Festival. It's going to be a hip and a hop and a fun time.

Oh yeah. Thanks for having me on guys. Thank you so much for being here. I just punched a water bottle. Okay bye. Gotta go. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated.

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