The Bechdel Cast - Set It Off with Jourdain Searles

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Jamie and Caitlin and special guest Jourdain Searles set it off this week with an episode on Set It Off.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @jourdayen of @badromancepod on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties

you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Nerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption. They were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right?

Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Las Culturistas.

Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. And my name is Jamie Loftus. And you're listening to this podcast right now, did you know, that is about the representation of women in film examining that

representation from an intersectional feminist lens i didn't know that oh good wow but it's always a pleasure to be to be well it's not we're we're together we're together what was that like corny quarantine hashtag hashtag alone together i'm like feeling mostly alone but it is nice to see it's nice to see you both um you know we're together in a sense sure yes digitally digitally wow I know I can now only get zoom to work on my phone and then sometimes my phone gets really hot so look forward to that. Anyway, great. We're off to a great start.

Anyways, this is the Bechdel cast. We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. And traditionally, the Bechdel test determines whether or not two named women speak to each other about something other than a man we are approaching it a little differently moving forward which is that do two people of marginalized genders speak to each other about something other than a man and that is you know just a way to broaden the test and make it a little bit more inclusive. I don't think Alison Bechdel would disagree. Yeah, I think she would. That's who made the test.

Oh, yeah. Yes. Sorry, I forgot to mention that part. I wonder about that sometimes because Alison Bechdel is so awesome. But then do you ever wonder like, because she wrote it in a single comic, and then she's like, and that, that is my life. That's the thing. It's like if you said something like smart offhand, and then someone's like and that that is my that's the thing it's like if you said something like smart offhand and then someone was still talking to you about there was a podcast about it 30 years later anyways it's kind of that'll be like if um in 30 years from now someone has a podcast called cat facts with caitlin right and i'll be like that's the thing you took away from my whole my body of work you're like i mean it's all and good, but there's just there was there was more there. That's on us. I'm so excited for today's episode.

Yes, we have a guest who we're super excited about as well. All the way from Brooklyn, New York. She's a comedian, a writer and co co-host of Bad Romance podcast. It's Jordane Searles. Hi. Hello. Welcome. Thank you for being here. You have Mango Margarita? Yes.

Hell yes. What a good addition to the show. So we're covering Set It Off, the 1996 film jordan what is your relationship your history with this movie um this is just one of the movies that i grew up with i don't even remember the first time that i watched it i've watched it a million times since i was born in 92 and you know so i feel like this this came out in 96 and the moment that it hit cable I was watching it all the time and it would play on BET and um I've always liked it but it's only recently that I've started to appreciate it in

a different light just because like I think it was around the time, like after girls trip where people were talking about, Oh, when was the last time that a bunch of women were in a movie together and it did really well. And the only other times that I could think of was waiting to exhale and set it off. And I couldn't think of anything before that, where it was just like more than one black woman,

you know, on the poster. Right. Yeah. So I was thinking about it a lot. And then I recently rewatched it and then bought it. So now I own it and I'm and I am very happy about that. And also, since like I'm queer, I appreciate Queen Latifah's character way more than I did when I was a kid.

And I did not know that I was queer. I can't wait to talk about it more. Jamie, what's your history with it? This is one of the many movies that I have seen in parts on cable TV, but I'd never sat down and watched it all the way through beginning to end. I've seen many of the iconic scenes but i i had never taken in the full movie and holy shit this movie is so great like i i there's so much going on researching the production of the movie was very interesting as well like this movie has everything going for it and expectedly it was reviewed uh by like older white male film critics incredibly weird the the rotten tomatoes uh you know gap between audience and critic um is telling it's sure i i loved it what's your history caitlin

uh i had not seen this before and i'm mad at myself that it took me so long to see it because i mean heist movies are right up my alley female driven heist movies are even more up my alley so few of them exist um so again I'm bummed I slept on this for so long but I'm glad I've finally seen it because this movie rules and it makes such important commentary and just does a lot of really cool stuff. So, yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. So should we just dive into the recap and go from there? Yeah, let's do it.

All right. So we meet Frankie, Vivica A. Fox. She works at a bank that gets robbed by an acquaintance of hers. This robbery turns into a violent, bloody shootout. Because she knew the robber, she gets fired and she is suspected of collusion by the police. The main person there is Detective Strode, played by John C. McGinley, thinks that she is involved. Am I supposed to know who he is? Oh, he was in...

He's in Scrubs. He was on Scrubs, yeah. But he's in a lot of these cop movies, too. If you look back at the 90s, he's in a lot of them. He's got rusting cop face. It makes sense. He does. The first thing I saw him in was office space

he plays one of the bobs and that's what i know him most from well i don't i don't like him yeah his character i have a whole spiel on like the friendly white male cop trope in media oh yeah absolutely hate it yeah it's so it feels like out of place in this movie too it was yeah right like why it didn't it doesn't make sense also because his partner is a black woman and she does nothing and says nothing i No! I kept waiting for, I was watching it with my boyfriend. I'm like, any second now, we're gonna get some information about her character. And it just never comes. It never comes. The same

way I was waiting for Cleo's girlfriend to speak aloud the entire movie, I'm like, she's gonna speak in this scene for sure. She never says a word, I don't think. It almost starts to feel like the movie is playing a joke on you because they cut to her so much and i don't think we ever see her say a word anyway but yeah the the cop is the way that the tone of the movie treats the cop is is like this feels like a studio

note and then i'm getting very ahead of myself but the other detective detective waller yeah his partner i kept thinking the movie was gonna end with like the because i hadn't seen it before i was like okay here's what's gonna happen they're gonna rob the one last bank detective waller's gonna show up and be like and like maybe catch them or something but she's gonna be like you know what you go on ahead i'll just pretend like i didn't see you and then she lets them go because like she's going to be like, you know what? You go on ahead. I'll just pretend like I didn't see you. And then she lets them go because she's like, I get it. But that doesn't happen at all. She redeems herself, sort of, kind of. No, yeah, John C. McGinley gets that note.

He's the one that, like, yeah. It's so strange. Like, what is even the point of her being in it at all? Because, I mean, at mean at least like i don't know like i've watched a you know a bunch of black movies from the 90s from this time and a lot of them talk about how black cops are complicit in enforcing white supremacy we see this in boys in the hood as well like especially in boys in the hood And so it's weird that this movie doesn't seem to question her, except for the scene at the very beginning,

when Vivica, like, looks at her and, like, says something to her. I don't remember what she says. Oh, she's like, you didn't even offer me a drink of water or something like that. Yeah, and it's just like, and that's the only part that we get. But, I mean, other movies were way more, I guess, thoughtful about that. But I mean, that's like that just goes into my one big issue with the movie is that it likes cops too much. And yeah, while also making cops look really incompetent. So it just doesn't make sense to like them so much when they're so bad at their jobs.

Cannot make sense to like them so much when they're so bad at their jobs cannot make sense of it yeah the vibe is very much like well they're they're bad at their job and they're murderers but you gotta love them and it's like we don't gotta love them we don't right i don't know what to make of it and it does seem like that scene with detective waller and um and with vivica a fox at the very beginning it seems like that is setting up something that will come back. But it's never, this particular dynamic is never set off. Right.

I wonder if there's like a scene. That's great. That was great. They never set it off, Jamie? But yeah, I wonder if there is a scene that was cut. Right. It sounds like from the research i did on the production it seems like this movie went through many many drafts so it for where when stuff like that kind

of flagged for me of like this feels like a something that we kind of lost in the middle i'm just assuming it's that but i don't know yeah and there's more to discuss there. So we meet three friends who we later, we soon discover are Frankie's friends, but it's Stoney, Jada Pickett-Smith, Cleo is Queen Latifah, and Tishan is Kimberly Elise. And they work together as janitors at an upscale hotel. They are all struggling financially. Stoney's younger brother, Stevie, played by Chaz Lamar Shepard, reveals that he's unable to go to college after all, because he didn't get a scholarship. And they were all hoping that he would be able to go to college and get out of this cycle of poverty. So that's kind of a big devastation for Stoney, especially because she helped raise them after their parents died. And then Tishan has a young child. She can't afford to pay for

the babysitter. And then Cleo's stakes are perhaps a little lower than everyone else in that she seems to mostly just want to fix up her car. But those are kind of the what's at stake from a financial situation for these characters. Cleo thinks that they should rob a bank because the guy who robbed Frankie's bank at the beginning made off with like $20,000. No one else thinks it's a good idea yet. then we see a scene with this creepy car salesman who wants stoney to come work for him and he wants other stuff from her too mainly sexual favors she needs in advance but he'll only give it to her in exchange for sex and she's desperate so she has sex with him only to find out that her brother lied and didn't get into ucla at all and then shortly after that he is shot and killed

by police because they mistake him for being one of the bank robbers from the beginning of the movie and that i mean that scene is devastating and it it is fucking horrible and then at the end of the scene again like the the movie seems to kind of let the cop off a little bit yeah in this where he's just like oh no oh no oh darn we messed up i shouldn't have done that you're like why why yeah then they revisit the idea of robbing the bank and they figure that with frankie's knowledge of banks they think that they can pull it off without anybody getting hurt so they decide to do it they start scoping out this big fancy bank where stoney meets keith blair underwood's character who works in like upper management at his bank. Keith has this like

tiny mustache. The mustache is not big. It's quite small. It's so cute. It is. I was not at first I was like not sure if I was going to get on board with Keith but then I ended up getting on board with Keith. He's a little touch and go for me. Blair Underwood is hot. But I don't know, there's that one scene where he's like, ooh, Jada, your outfit is weird. And then he makes her change into a different outfit for the bank gala they're going to. She's wearing like this very like colorful, like, you know, kind of like festive maxi dress. And he has her change into like a little black mini dress. Right.

Which is not I liked. I first of all, he was wrong the first time. The first dress was lovely and I liked it. And then there's like that scene at the i don't know i mean i i like i generally like it but it was kind of like her big night out is to this like evil bankers gala you're like yeah i want better for her than this this evil banker gala but everyone's having fun and then you like see his the like inside of his house in different scenes and he's like well it's not much but it's home and then it's like this mansion you're like what

are you talking about sir sir well like he went to harvard so and he calls you went to business school b school oh my god i had to like rewind and go back i was like if that is what it's actually called i need to like that like this right they call journalism school j school but there's no like there's no like there's no b school or like c school i went to f school film school thank you so much that's a really funny way for like writers to tell on themselves they're like yeah they probably call it b school let's just put it down what a funny yeah that was a great and she doesn't flinch either she's like ah yes b school no she needs clarification she's like what the fuck are you talking about he's like oh sorry

business school. And then he says he works on Wall Street. And we're like, Kate! Anyway, so he hits on Stoney and eventually asks her out while they're scoping out this bank that they intend to rob. Meanwhile, Tishan has to bring her baby to work since she can't afford a babysitter. And the baby accidentally consumes some cleaning products and they have to rush him to the hospital and then child protective services take her baby away so now everyone is even more highly motivated to go through with robbing a bank so they start to make preparations Cleo procures some guns and a getaway car

some guns from dr dre yes a great cameo the playing the guy of guy that owes favor right and has a bunch of guns that's such a fun heist trope to me because i feel like that that is like a character that appears in some form in every heist movie of like well how will we get item it's like oh guy owes me favor and then we see guy who owes favor so then Frankie Stoney Cleo and Tishan go to rob a bank wearing disguises and a couple of them feel uneasy about it but Frankie sets it off hey that's the name of the movie I love how much they say the name of the movie in the movie well someone had to set it off oh yeah well because when Cleo is getting the gun she's like no I don't want I want something that can set it off and I'm just like yes you're like yeah right I one of the many things i mean it's like it's hard not to want

to talk about every part of the movie as we mention it but there is so like i don't know i love that i feel like a lesser movie would kind of employ some like they all know how to set it off right away but they get like steadily better at robbing banks as the movie goes on where like the aesthetic and the weapons for the first robbery are very different from the third and you're like okay we're all learning here this is cool for sure the way the first robbery was shot was really cool because it was all one shot just kind of like moving around the room there's no edits and it happens in exactly 60 seconds because you see the shot starts with a clock and then ends with the same clock.

And it's one minute later and you're just like, oh, this is good filmmaking. The blocking in this scene, the acting in this scene. The music. Oh, loved it. So anyway, so they arrive at this first bank and they go through with it, except for Tishawn, who runs away because she chickens out. And it's a success, and they get away with $12,000. Meanwhile, though, the same cops from earlier, Detective Strode and Detective Waller, are starting to suspect who might have done this robbery, and they think that Frankie was involved.

I have another huge issue with that plot point, but we'll get there. Sure. Then Stoney goes out with Keith. Meanwhile, Cleo and Frankie want to rob another bank because they need more money to be able to kind of fully leave their old lives behind. Stoney doesn't want to. She and Cleo get in a huge fight, but it doesn't last long. They make up. And then there's this fun Godfather-inspired scene. I had seen this scene before, but I didn't know the context of when it came in the movie. So I went in thinking Seredov was way sillier than it ends up being.

But that scene is so awesome. It's so good. Yes, it's a great scene and also i have listened to um i don't know how much destiny's child you listen listen to but their album the writings on the wall starts with a scene just like that with missy elliott talking to destiny's child like like the godfather and i had grown up hearing that and then i watched set it off after that and i was like oh okay wait i never would have connected that i know exactly wow yeah set it off was first so i think that it came from that they were just big fans oh i love

that that's great. So basically, the group is like, okay, we just need to do one more big robbery, and then we'll be set it off. Nope. You're like, but what about the rule of threes? I know. But right, they haven't thought about that yet. Yeah, they don't know the screenwriting rules at this moment. So they go to the second bank, and this robbery is kind of touch and go it's lasting a little too long their their getaway gets a little botched but they manage to get away

with well the second one isn't the second one where queen latifah drives through the bank correct which is it gets a little botched just drives the car into the bank. I love that scene. Apparently there's like a display of like teddy bears that the truck runs into because all of a sudden there's a shot of like teddy bears exploding across the front of the car. No, no, it's perfect. It's great. And also, Titi really steps up in this robbery because she is like someone almost someone has a gun and someone is going to stop them. But she's able to, which I really liked. I liked that it was like she got scared the first time. And then the second time she was like instrumental to set setting it off to setting it off.

Yeah. She's pretending to be one of the hostages basically and then she's like oh no you don't when the guy with the gun tries to stop things for this robbery they managed to get away with over 260 000 their plan is that they're going to keep working at their janitor jobs for the next few days while they get tt's son back and then they're going to leave town so they stow the money in the hotel where they work at and go about their normal business then we have a stony and keith steamy sex scene yes a lot of tight shots a lot of oil good soundtrack a lot of butts. And then the others show up at work and learn that Luther, their boss, has stolen their cash she witnessed the whole thing. So then Cleo gets picked up by Detective Strode and put into a lineup. But she had taken this witness's ID and

been like, this is for insurance. Like, if you identify me, I will kill you is the implication. So Cleo does not get identified. And she gets released. But with the money gone, they realize that they have to rob another bank. So they decide to go for the big one. The rule of threes. Keith's bank. Keith's bank. All of NJ is like, not Keith's bank. And they're like, Keith's bank.

Sorry. sorry now the problem is that the detectives are already there showing security camera footage to the like upper management staff at the bank and keith recognizes stoney from the footage and he's like no not my girlfriend stoney so the women show up to rob the bank but because the like cops are already like right there there's this big shootout tt gets shot they get away and then tishan dies in stoney's arms uh another very tragic scene it's horrible and then they have to escape from the kind of that situation and then cleo kind of martyrs herself to save Stoney and Frankie. Stoney gets on a bus, but Frankie gets caught and killed. But Stoney makes it to Mexico and she's got her bag of money and she's the only one to make it out.

And then the film ends with her kind of driving along the coast. It's a perfect ending shot. Yeah. So that is the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your

career, you have a lot of questions like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself.

Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week, we're taking it to the next level.

The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious

as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I would love it. I have to watch Lost.

Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad.

I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Rudy. I'm not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum.

Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Where should we start the discussion? There's a lot of stuff here. This is one of the best casts. It's such a great cast because, I mean, I've been looking back and researching black film for the past 30 years,

and just kind of specifically looking at a lot of the talent that really didn't get to be in that many movies because there just weren't roles for them and this cast is just so it's so perfect like just all of my favorite so many of my favorite underused actresses like specifically i think that vivica fox was an underused actress for a while especially like until like leading up to like kill bill but even like since kill bell she's been really underused kimberly elise who i love love love and who was she starred in the very first tyler perry movie diary of a Mad Black Woman and she was amazing in it

and she I mean like Tyler Perry got huge after that I mean he was already huge in terms of like theater and stuff but Tyler Perry got huge in film and she didn't and I hate that because she's great and Jada Pinkett Smith one of the most underused

actresses of our time we were just talking about that in the bad moms episode where like she plays one of the side characters who's like one of the mean moms yeah and it's like what you have her why didn't you use her at all you know like her and magic mike double xl like jada pink like that was that was beautiful i was like we need to use her like she's used in magic mike double xl in every movie she and she really like i mean i had to look up i was like how old is she in this movie she's like 25 if that and she's just like on another level i mean she's her performance in this movie is fucking incredible it's so good everyone she's she's amazing and uh and i also love that she

got a love scene because i love i love sexy jada pinkett i love well i guess that that's like a place we could go to because we see Stoney have sex twice in this movie. And something that I appreciated that the movie does is the way that those two sex scenes are framed couldn't be more different because they're told from her perspective, which I feel like is something we lose sometimes in movies where even if the protagonist is a woman,

you still somehow end up seeing the sex scenes from the male perspective for no reason, presumably. But in this, we see her at the beginning. I forget what the name of the car dealership guy is. Oh, Nate, I think. Nate. OK, so so he I mean, he coerces her basically into having sex so that she can do this down payment for UCLA. And you see her face during that scene. It doesn't focus or linger on him. There's no like, you know, over the top. Like you are there with her, not with him.

And then in the sex scene with Keith, it's like the best it's a corny 90s sex there's a candle there's gotta be a candle it's just there's an open flame just there's oil everywhere oh you gotta have the very slippery it's a very slippery sex scene and like blair underwood like because blair Underwood is so much always like he's always playing like very like they I mean, Cleo calls him calls his character this in the movie, a buppy, a black yuppie. Like he's always playing that character. And that character is usually very like rigid and kind of like sexless, even though he's so handsome. Like even I remember watching him on Sex and the City and being like, imagine what this would be like if he wasn't surrounded by white people on this show. Like what if there was a Sex and the City where I just got to see his ass

all the time? And then I wouldn't also have to think about him being fetishized by like white women who just like love the way that he talks or you know but yeah so seeing him get a sex scene is really nice there there really aren't that many Blair Underwood sex scenes which is a tragedy a crime it's a great I really enjoyed the sex scene it's so like it's very of its time but it's good. And it's like and contrasted with the other sex scene feels exactly right in the opposite direction. Yeah. And usually you get those overly objectifying or like exploitative sex scenes from male directors, which this movie does have so shout out to director f gary gray you know legendary black director for you know treating those sex scenes responsibly and being respectful of the characters and just the entire narrative to me is by and large very respectful of its subjects these four women

it tells their story it dives into their characters we understand who they are they're so distinct from each other we understand their motivations because that does not always happen when you have a male director directing women well f gary gray is also like he's this is i've i've seen i think more f gary gray movies than not i had not seen this one all the way through but he also if you want to like feel horrible about yourself he's uh 27 when this movie comes out so there's that and his his big movie before this was friday uh with ice cube and chris tucker which comes out the year before this so he's just like firing on all cylinders yeah especially at this point in his career but right don't sleep on the fate of the furious

um now I want to talk about some other people behind the scenes sure so the film was written by two people takashi buford who is a black man and kate lanier who we were yeah caitlin and i were talking uh we had a a long discussion about kate lanier earlier today because she's uh she's kind of she's all over the place yes so from my research, here is what I've gathered. She wrote the screenplay for such films as Beauty Shop, What's Love Got to Do With It, Glitter, a TV movie about TLC, among a few other projects. So these are mostly movies that are about black women. Now, as far as her background. She is a white woman yes so or so okay we well we watched i had the same thing where i'm like i'm like 80 sure she's a white woman but when you search her face you're you get the same kind of like unclear images okay we were having this discussion today because we were also we're

like okay we want to be sure yeah that this so uh caitlin found an hour-long interview and bravely watched it watch the whole thing and caitlin here is white but don't ask her if she's white because she'll say well i'm half jewish my dad's side of the family there's all kinds of stuff going on there and it's like you're but and then but she then she later says she doesn't know what she is and um and then she acknowledges that she looks white because but it's because she's white she is that's why she looks and then in okay here's the here is the absolute worst part of this interview she goes on to say that because she has hung out with a lot of black people and that she gravitates toward them she feels eligible to tell black stories oh does she and by tell she means profit off from

yeah she it's the only like extended interview of her that exists she's being interviewed by a black woman who keeps looking to the camera jim halpert style every time starts talking about how she's white but is she white and it's like no she is white it's a mess she negs the interviewer and then she pivots at the end of this clip to be like well hollywood is ageist and i'm like don't change the subject. Do you think that Rachel Dolezal has this interview and that she downloaded it to her computer and watches it all the time? I was getting some Rachel Dolezal vibes

from this screenwriter. Yeah. And then at the end, she's like, I'm all for getting more Black writers into the room, but why are people mean to me because I'm old? And you're like, this sentence like, I'm all for getting more black writers into the room. But why are people mean to me? Because I'm old. And you're like, this sentence has been a journey. Right.

Wonderful. So glad that you watched that. I would not have watched that. So thank you for your service. Well, that brings me to an excerpt from a book entitled Shaping the Future of African American Film, Color-Coded Economics, and the Story Behind the Numbers by Monica White Ndonu. I might have mispronounced that. Quote, patriarch capitalism presents several hazards for black cinematic storytelling. Representing black males as primarily unsupervised except by law enforcement and correctional institutions does not reflect the historical survival of black families and African American communities that have depended upon single mothers.

Convention maintains that the black man can fix what has been broken in the black community. This assertion becomes particularly significant considering the race and gender of the screenwriters and director of Set It Off. Director F. Gary Gray and screenwriter Takashi Buford are African American males. The fact that co-writer Kate Lanier is a white female who has penned scripts for several films about black women is also noteworthy. What's Love Got to Do With It, Glitter, Beauty Shop. Since none of the filmmakers on this project are Black women, their only intervention is through performance, much like Black Americans in early mainstream theater and film. The writer goes on to talk about how Black women have been underrepresented, misrepresented, and over-sexualized, even in movies made by Black filmmakers, again, particularly Black men. And then she says, quote, Set It Off exposes the racial and gender disparities in Hollywood's Ulmer scale, as well as the reverberating effects of those disparities, both on and off screen.

Employing Black people and women either for behind the scenes roles or as actors does not guarantee a fair or honest representation of Black culture or women, end quote. So basically she's saying, you know, with this movie, there are Black people behind the scenes, there is a woman behind the scenes. But maybe set it off, a movie about Black women and their struggle should have been written and directed by Black women. Now, I would say that this film does a pretty good job. Like, I really enjoyed this. And I think that there's a lot of great things to take away from it. But like we were already hinting at earlier like the treatment of like the white male cop is like a friendly ally to the characters is you know a little and dissonant and the treatment of his

partner is kind of like a subordinate who doesn't really seem to have any opinions and i mean the only other place where i think that it really comes up is with Cleo and her girlfriend which is it's a really interesting thing because like I think that Queen Latifah is really hot and I can get very clouded by that but but like there is no denying that like the way that she is written is kind of like this idea of like, well, you know, it's got to be like this. I mean, and not to say that, I mean, she's basically playing a stud and she's very good at it. You know, love the cornrows, love the style, love everything. But it's but it is interesting that her girlfriend never talks. And I think that that could be just like no one in the script really having the imagination of like, okay, the stud gets to talk.

But what about the femme? Does the femme get to speak? And the answer is no. She doesn't. To a point where it's like it seems like they're making a point by not letting her speak. The other characters even comment on it. They're like, she's not letting her speak the other characters even comment on it they're like she's not gonna say anything like that first the scene when when ursula is first introduced and they like say hi ursula and like she just doesn't respond they're like she's not gonna say anything like they comment on the fact that she doesn't talk and it's like

this could have been fixed it just seems like there's another movie where like are there just like scenes like all put together where ursula's talking and she's like having all these opinions and it's just like in some other like side movie i would love it if there was like a cutout scene where she was just like hey i don't think that this is such a good idea right or she's like i know exactly how to rob a bank let me give you some do's and don'ts like there's so many ways she could have where's the ursula spinoff it's so bizarre that they don't let ursula talk i have a little more context for the uh scripting process so just last month, Vulture did an interview with Vivica A. Fox about this movie. And so there's like a ton of really fun, like behind the scenes facts.

But one thing that how I found out that this movie went through a number of drafts was Vulture asked what rang false about the original script. Vivica A. Fox responds, quote, Jada was a crackhead. There were so many stereotypes of black people f gary gray was just like nope nope her brother was a crack dealer in the first draft it didn't make any sense he was like no jada's gonna be working hard for him to go to school and her motivation was him saying i don't want to go to school and the director came up with what she had to do to get him the money to go to school unquote so it's

and it does sound like based on this interview while obviously the there were two main writers of this movie that f gary gray encouraged all four lead actors to ad lib to add in stuff um where they felt like it made sense there was like I guess that a lot of like the famous lines in this movie were ad-libbed by the actors. Nice. Yeah, Vivica A. Fox is so, she also says that she's athletic seven different times in this interview. I read it.

But I just feel like she said it seven times for some reason. Love her. I love her so much. I guess the next thing I want to touch on is so this is a movie about like black female friendship which we don't see very often at all i mean jordan you were talking about how like between this and girls trip that's kind of it i mean even waiting to exhale which they're friends but we talked about this on on that episode where like we only see them on screen together for maybe like 20 minutes in the entire movie and the rest of the movie is like those

women off uh with the various romantic pursuits that they're you know that's true yeah with so this is such a rare story to see on screen at least in a cinematic mainstream way um and i feel like as is always the case the movie was super successful and it was like a hit and it made its budget back four times because like these are stories that people want to see there just weren't any studios making them or making them to be released to a wide audience was it in that same interview with vivica a fox where they were there was mention of this film being pitched to i think it was new line Cinema and being rejected like three times because they didn't anticipate like anyone would want to see a film about a bunch of

black women they were just like who wants to see that and it's like well a lot of people because this movie was a box office success well yeah I mean I feel like a lot of those assumptions are like I listened to a lot of you must remember this. And there were a lot of assumptions that Hollywood would like try to anticipate the way that people would react to things and be like, well, you know, the the public wouldn't like this, they wouldn't see this. And those were a lot of the arguments that they made historically when it came to like black stories. i mean those arguments are are the exact same and they haven't really changed that much now and it's i mean this movie came out the year after waiting to exhale so there's a really good clarkisha kent piece and i'm just like a clarkisha kent nerd so i was excited to read this piece that she wrote but she she basically uh makes the argument at one point in her piece about set it off that um set it off and waiting to exhale are often compared to one another um but she also makes the argument that that is like

she's like i think that it's because there's four black women on the posters because outside of that you also in this movie see poor black women you see like they're they're all working class people and you know in in waiting to exhale it's you're you're in a different class you're in arizona like it's it's quite different yeah there's really i mean genre wise they're so different like there's truly nothing except that they're both about four black women that it's well it comes like with with black movies in general especially movies about black women they just tend to be lumped together as this this like giant genre that's like black this like very indirect, not really descriptive genre.

And it's, I mean, it's very frustrating. Because people will just be like, oh, well, I'll talk about, like, for example, my, like, a thing, my kind of, like, pet thing is that I love seeing black women's sexuality on screen, which is, like is like even in my opinion, like they don't really get to explore it like as in like a way of like objectifying. Yes. But in terms of like black women enjoying sex, you know, like having orgasms, having a good time. I very rarely see that. And when i start to talk about that will people be like oh well there's this movie in this movie in this movie it's like yeah there's a black woman

in it and yes there's a love story but does but does she come like does does she reach orgasm and it's oh no she doesn't so then that's not what i'm talking about it's the yeah that there needs to be a media test for that. That's going to be your, your test. That's going to be the podcast for you, Jordan, in 30 years.

And I, and I think that the reason people like in the, in a kind of whether they realize it or not, bad faith way, lump all these movies together is because there just are not enough of them that are like released in the mainstream, which is an issue all its own.

It's frustrating. Yes. Yeah. Let's take another quick break and then we'll come right back for more discussion. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

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The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? Like you miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered.

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I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song?

Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Ludie. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous.

Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back, ready to set it off again. I wanted to talk about how this, how useless cops are in this movie. And I realized that like, it's not just that like like it's not just like the stuff that we see in the movie it's also just like the context of what they're doing they're putting all of this manpower and all of this money and all of these guns and like helicopters and riot gear and all this stuff

to get four women who just need some money like i, I was just, I, like, especially, like, now with the protests and everything, me just watching this, I'm just like, look at all of this time and energy and shit that they're spending because four women just want some money. Like, why? Like, you know, with all this, all this, like, funding that you could just give these four black women some money and then, like, send them on on their way. Like we don't need to actually do this. And like the end with like, especially with the chase and the manhunt and everything, it's so stupid. It's so stupid to look at. Like, I'm just like, just everybody else could be doing something else.

And then like, there's a newscaster and it's like, everybody's watching this. And it's like, it's just like, this is not new. This is not like OJ in the Bronco. These are just like four women who like need to pay their bills. And the ending drives me insane because like,

it's John C. McGinley and he's talking to Vivica Fox's character. And he's just like, I mean, even, even the point in the bank, anytime that he's just like, we don't need any more violence, you know, put the gun down. We don't need any more, no more people need to die. And so he's, like, talking to Vivica A. Fox, and, like, he just, he says that, and it's just, like, why are you saying that when you know that, like, immediately she is going to die? Like, it's just so weird to me, because why would she trust him? Because when he's in the bank and he's like, you know, we don't have to do any more violence, whatever, everybody's ready to surrender. And then they just kill Tashaun like just a cop just like shows up like

after he's already like calmed everyone down and just like shoots because they're just trained to shoot and then and then it becomes a shootout it becomes a shootout because cops are fucking stupid and then for some reason like he's like so sad about it and so like upset but then you still like spearhead this entire fucking manhunt if you're so sad then why do you keep bringing all these people with guns like right it doesn't make sense especially because he i feel like the movie takes multiple opportunities to distance him from what he is in charge of and is definitely doing because he's in charge of it where like after they he started this case he started the investigation the chief who is a black man told him not to and he does it anyway right yeah he's like uh she's

colluding she uh vivica a fox knew the initial bank robber so she's in on it and it's like he's like uh she's colluding she uh vivica a fox knew the initial bank robber so she's in on it and it's like he's making a bad faith assumption and then the movie has him turn out to be right which i also don't like i don't like the story logic there of like he is making a bad faith assumption like flat out but then they're like but you know she did rob the bank it's like it's oh yes that that's another thing that makes me really mad about this movie and it reminded me of it actually reminded me of crash i don't know if you've seen 2004's crash not the good one the the david cronenberg one in the 90s where people are turned on by car crashes amazing film beautiful yes if you ever want to talk about that one on this podcast

i will come back to talk about the the car crash fucking horny car crash movie have you seen it jamie no i haven't seen it it's a movie about people who get turned on by car crashes it's fucking awesome i also read the book and it's a very horny book why wasn't that my idea but the bad crash the 2004 crash um i don't know i don't know if you guys have seen it but there's a scene where it's like ludicrous and lorenz tate are just like talking about police profiling and how everyone just assumes that they're robbers and that they're gangbangers and everybody has the worst assumptions

and then they immediately commit a robbery. Rob someone. It's so frustrating because he is absolutely profiling in that scene, but the story would have you believe, but was he wrong? And you're like, that is not, I don't even think the message that this movie is trying to say.

Like, what is going on? The movie doesn't really question whether this cop is wrong or not. The movie really just questions like, oh, no, like, why is the system like this? And it's like, well, we're looking at the system. It's John C. McGinley. It's just doing bad things and then feeling bad about it for a second and then going back to do the things again. And it feels intentional that the most heinous crimes committed by cops in this movie are committed by faceless. Like, we don't know which feels like another intentional choice of like almost like i don't god only knows who involved

in in the production at whatever level uh made the decision of like well we can't have the cop that we know be the murderer it has to just be like background cop number five otherwise that introduces like you know questions that maybe this movie doesn't quite want to answer it's so frustrating and it's also the the fact that we get that i i thought that that um exchange between frankie and uh detective waller at the towards the beginning of the movie was setting up something that could have been a really interesting, effective conversation. And then it's just like, nope, we're just going to give you more John C. McGinley

than you ever would have asked for. Yeah, nobody needs that much of him. I've seen every episode of Scrubs. That was enough. And it's also like now that I've seen him in all these older cop movies, when I watch Scrubs now, was enough. And it's also like now that I've seen him in all these older cop movies, when I watch Scrubs now, he just looks like a cop. He looks like a doctor cop. He looks like an undercover cop working at a hospital.

Yeah. Well, there's the Detective Waller character I really cannot make sense of. She's played by Ella Joyce. There's that scene where queen latifah's character is in the lineup and they're trying to get the witness who was having sex with luther to identify cleo and she doesn't do it because she knows cleo's gonna come after her if she does so she says i don't the perpetrator is not in this lineup meanwhile detective waller is like she's right there i don't like she's like she's so mad and it's just like i don't like it would be like it once again in boys in the hood it's made like very specifically clear that like the black cop

character does not like other black people and that's the point like that's the critique like to become a cop you would have to not like other black people and so like i almost just kind of wish that the movie like leaned into this and was just like she just doesn't like other black women because at least that would be interesting and that would give her something to do and it would also like explain why she's subordinate to this guy who's just like for all she knows up until like everything gets ramped up who's just like harassing these women just like following them around for no real just wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money to just harass these women and and it's the way he talks to her is also like so just arrogant and annoying he's such a he's a know it like there's what is that scene where

they're both in the office together and he like puts high-res photos of the four main actors and is like what did i tell you and i'm like oh this is the moment where she's gonna like you know push back or something's gonna happen and then they're like nope next scene here no and i don't and i don't like the way that he talks to all the four main characters either he's so condescending he's just like yeah i know your life is hard and like all you have to do is put down the gun and like i know your whole life story because i'm a fed and i'm like spying on you but i'm pretending to be a therapist it's like no I'm a fed and I'm like spying on you, but I'm pretending to be a therapist. It's like,

no, you're a fed. You're a fucking fed. You're not a therapist. Shut up. No. And therapists don't stalk you. Therapists don't like,

I know about your brother and your mother and your grandma. And it's like, no, like if my therapist knew that much about me, I'd be like, what's going on? Therapists famously do not do these things it's so it's so frustrating and and i mean i guess i don't this might be like an accidentally effective thing where he he says at multiple times that he understands what they're going through but he obviously doesn't or he wouldn't be he would not be in this

job like i don't know where that was headed which is kind of wild because it's like what is happening with the four main characters seems so focused and like so like the movie knows exactly what they're doing with the four main characters for the most part and then the cop the the cop b plot i feel like like unless you're gonna make commentary on what they're doing why is it there like why why yeah yeah they don't they don't discuss anything they don't like follow leads they decide that these are the women they're stuck with that the entire time there's no investigation at all no he just does what his boss tells him not to do profiles and then murders people and then at the end he's like all right jada you got me you can go to mexico and i think that we're supposed to be like that was nice of him like i was trying to discern how the movie was trying to make yeah i think that we're supposed to be like, that was nice of him. Like, I was trying to discern how the movie was trying to make you feel.

Yeah, I think that we are supposed to. And I mean, it's also just like a bit of like Hollywood morality from that time. I love black cinema from that time. It's some of my favorite. But there's also this sense of there's only one of us that's going to out of this like in any given movie from that time you get the feeling that only one person is really going to make it and like i almost feel like stoney makes it just because she has scenes where she's just like you know don't you ever think about the future uh don't you ever think about where you're going and because she's the only one who thinks

about the future she's the one who lives right okay so one of the things that i thought was effective and really cool about this movie and you know still very timely and relevant today is like just the idea of these characters doing what they do because they are trying to get out of this cycle of poverty and the cards are stacked against them because they're black women and they come from a low socioeconomic background opportunities are not open to them for any sort of upward socioeconomic mobility you know like everything they have to rob banks because they have no other choice they're they're desperate just everything that's happened to them has led them to this and and i love the line that i who says it where the four of them are finally all on board and they're

like okay let's do this they're like yeah let's steal from the system that is addicted to fucking us over like that feels like the, yes. A thesis statement in, in the movie. For sure. It's when, um,

they're planning the first heist and TT is like, I feel so bad. We're just, we're stealing people's money. If we're stealing from a bank, you know, it's, it's other people's money.

And then Cleo's like, no insurance will cover it. Like that's a ridiculous comment. And then Frankie says, we're just taking from the system that's fucking us anyway. And we're like, no, insurance will cover it. Like, that's a ridiculous comment. And then Frankie says, we're just taking from the system that's fucking us anyway. And we're like, yes, like steal from that system. Like, do it. But yeah, there's this there's this kind of like motif, I suppose, where it starts with Keith, who, again, he works in like corporate bank management, basically. He loves banks.

He loves banks. He loves banks. He loves money. And he has a lot of it. And he is dating Stoney, who she says at one point, like, I'm borrowing pieces of your life. Like, you live this fancy life. This is not my life or background. Like, we come from very different places, basically. But he's like, you know, what's your five-year plan?

Like, what's your plan? What's your future? I love know what's your five-year plan like what's what do you plan what's your i love this idea of a five-year plan like it's just and she's such a middle class thing that like i just can't even fathom it and she says i don't know i've like never i have no idea and then she kind of after this conversation with keith she says hey cleo do you ever think about the future like what's your five-year plan and cleo responds i don't know i don't have a five-year plan i'm just trying to get through today and it's like yes like people trapped in poverty don't have the luxury of planning ahead or you know like setting goals for the future like that is a very middle class or upper class thing yeah i don't know how much keith like i think that keith definitely does like learn

a lot from stoney and he is like he listens to her and he does take what she has to say and because the way that that scene about the five-year plan ends is stoney starts talking about her brother and he's like, well, great. What's your brother's five-year plan? And she's like, he was murdered. And Keith is like,

right. Like it just, so I do, I do appreciate that those conversations, you know, happen between them and it's like two different class experiences entirely. And, but yeah,

Jordan, you're totally right i didn't even connect the dots on that one where it's the person who survives is the one who was taking in that kind of five-year plan morality upwardly mobile and all that yeah well i mean like because when you have cleo like you know very early that cleo is gonna die simply because like in the wake of Reagan and everything like that we see Cleo you know as soon as she gets the money she gets rims and she gets like she gets like hydraulics for her car and it's just like I know that based on the morality from that time there's no way that she's gonna live because she's got hydraulics for her car like and it's just i mean that's that's the kind of morality that movies were working on at

that time so i mean i hope that it's changed i wouldn't really know because there's not really any recent films to compare this to not that i can think of i I mean, I guess maybe Hustlers. Hustlers might be. There's similar themes going on. Yeah. Man, we got to do Hustlers. Screwing over the system. Wait, you haven't done Hustlers yet?

Not yet. We have 5 million requests for Hustlers and we haven't done it yet. Oh, God. We're being withholding. Love Hustlers and we haven't done it yet. Oh, God. We're being withholding. Love Hustlers so much. But one thing that I want to talk about that we didn't talk about is that they get high together in a scene. Yeah. And it's my favorite scene in the movie.

And I realized that, like, I can't think of a lot of movies where black women are just getting high together, which is weird because, like, that is what I do with my friends. We get high. Like like it's just weird it's all the scenes where they're together are so great but that one yeah that one is the best and it seems like i would guess that there is like a fair amount of ad-libbing in that scene as well because it's just like so comfortable and so natural and so oh it's great yeah it's great i loved it i just want to see black women getting orgasms and getting high i mean those are two of my favorite things both do happen in this movie i mean i guess do we see jada come i assume

that she does maybe i shouldn't i i assume i assume that she does too but i mean who knows like it might have just been like really hot and heavy. And then like right before she hits it, he's just like, all right, I'm done. He's like, I'm tired. Would you like a Pop-Tart? Not speaking from personal experience at all. I love the idea of him having Pop-Tarts in the, like, that's like his one like working class treat. Heard of these Pop-Tarts at B- at b school they're pretty good but yeah their their friendship is so

it it i i like how often it's put on display it's a major plot point at different points and i also love that they are i feel like female friendships across the board are often kind of written in this very like no one ever disagrees with each other way or if they do disagree with each other it's it's this big end of second act kind of disagreement but like the four main characters are constantly like they bicker with each other a lot there are certain like flare-ups in their friendship like after the first robbery where tt runs away before the robbery and then i think it's frankie who is like no you don't get any money you didn't participate in the robbery and right and then apologizes and is like okay sorry that was fucked up i should have said that obviously we all want you to get your son back

and like just having that like really strong friendship but also just seeing in the way that like strong friendships are where it's like people fight with their best friends constantly yeah i mean and it goes to show just how well these characters are characterized because it never feels not justified like any argument yeah or they have, you understand where each character is coming from because you know the character well enough to understand their motivations and everything that informs their opinions and all of that stuff. Can we go like just character to character and just do a quick run? I mean, with Titi, i love i love tt so much i hate so like i i do appreciate that the movie like makes it explicitly clear like why they are put in these extremely unfair situations where it's once luther puts tt on the books and she's not getting

money under the table anymore. So much taxes are taken out that she can't afford child care, which directly leads to her having her son taken away. Which is fucking awful. And it makes it clear that this is like not a fair situation for her to have to be in. And that everyone surrounding this situation, except for her friends, are being deeply antagonistic and unhelpful about it. Do we never find out what happens to her baby either? No, I don't think so. I wish they had. I guess I don't know if there would have been like an organic way in the narrative to like address what happened to that baby. But we just kind of don't revisit that at all.

Yeah, that made me feel bad yeah i was like i worry about that that poor kid such a cute kid yeah and then like i mean you have to imagine that like there's never enough social workers in foster care and just that it's it's terrifying well yeah and i mean there's also just you know the history of like child protective services being weaponized against black mothers and mostly you know it's black mothers losing their children because they have to work right almost like services should be offered instead of instead of just you know taking people's children away yeah and giving them to strangers yeah i guess we yeah we don't find out what happens to her son and there i mean her tt's

death i mean everyone's death is devastating yeah but tt's death and i mean just that scene and that is like so beautifully acted by jada pinkett um when she's talking about the banana flambé as like tt's dying in her arms it's just like it's gut-wrenching heartbreaking and then after that scene this movie does it a couple of times it never really bothers me but there are a few abrupt tonal switches in this movie and one of them comes right after tt's death where i was like crying my eyes out on my couch and then they gotta keep the movie going so then it's like do do do do do and then it's like back to the chase and you're like okay i guess yeah the chase is still happening i just i know

yeah but yeah and then we have cleo an out character yes it's a miracle in the not in the 90s um yeah i again i wish maybe her girlfriend had said one word or you know she's not a part of the group she's not one of the main characters but it was a choice and a choice that i don't necessarily understand and maybe that was just but like there are jokes in this movie, but this isn't a comedy. There's comic relief now and then, but tonally this is a pretty, this is a serious film. So if there's like a running gag, like, wouldn't it be funny if like Ursula just never talks

and like that was a running gag and like that the filmmakers decided to throw in there. It's like, okay, weird choice, weird movie to put a running gag like like that the filmmakers decided to throw in there it's like okay weird choice weird movie to put a run and gag like that in the in the story but okay but um but in any case yes Cleo I think Cleo is my favorite character of the four I do like them all a lot but like Queen Latifah's performance is just she knocks it out out of the park. Yeah, she's wonderful. I mean, Cleo is so, you know, she's very honest. And, you know, she's very funny.

And she's brave. Her death, which is very sad, but it's a very brave death. Yeah, she martyrs herself. And she, like like lights a cigarette. She's just like, I love that. That's just so Thelma and Louise. Just like, let's go. Yeah.

It's and they reference Thelma and Louise earlier in the movie. They reference it in the movie. And this movie by critics got compared to Thelma and Louise because critics just love making references. Well, it's because there are women in a car, Caitlin. That's clearly. and Louise because critics just love making references. Well, it's because there are women in a car, Caitlin. That's clearly. Yeah, I mean, her death is devastating, but she gets that kind of like, yeah,

that like cowboy moment at the end of like, she's been put in this impossible, unfair situation. It's being broadcast on news because why? And she still, you know, in the way that she is able to takes control of the situation, all that and they were nuzzling you see them kiss and it's like i found that surprising for a movie made in the mid 90s yeah if it were me i would have added a scene with them in bed together but yes it's very good i was yeah i was like it's it's you don't quite get the blair underwood treatment but i would have appreciated it that scene where queen latifah is like kissing up ursula's leg i was like i'm interested let's

maybe like let's not interrupt this but 1996 is gonna 1996 sure but yeah i i feel like the queer visibility in this movie is infinitely higher than you know most of 1996 which is great yeah for sure Frankie I I think Frankie is like I mean we were talking earlier about how you know like the movie really makes each woman's situation explicitly clear which you almost never get in heist movies it's usually a more vague like we would like money um kind of thing but for this movie frankie is another like very interesting specific character because she is trying to also get out of this cycle of poverty she is in the process of making that happen by working at a bank and then through no fault of her own that's taken from her and she is knocked back down and is

rightfully angry about it that scene at the beginning that like vivica a fox is just like fucking destroys i was thinking of like vivica fox between this and kill bill like she really knows how to open a movie like she can really get a movie started but like the the scene with her and her bosses and the police where no one is coming to her defense she's literally saying like i i don't even really know that guy i just live near him and they're just openly discriminating against her and it's it's so painful to watch and if yeah. Yeah, they perceive her as being guilty by association just because of where she grew up. And she says like, I can't help who I know.

This isn't a friend of mine. It's just a guy she's seen around in her neighborhood. And they're like, well, you're probably colluding. This is collusion. And it doesn't sit well with us that you know this person. So you're fired. And I love that she kind of, she, it's not her idea to rob the bank, but she sort of spearheads the plan of like, well, I know banks. Like, I know that you have to do, like during a robbery, the tellers are going to do this and they're going to do this with their

right hand and this with their left hand. So like we have to we know how to get around that. And that's how we're going to be successful at this, which unfortunately, by the end, they are not. But like but she gets that amazing line at the end where people are giving her shit about the procedure, the procedure, the procedure at the beginning where she was just like there was like a gun in my face to my face. I'm sorry, I didn't enact the procedure perfectly. And then she's fired. And then at the end, she even though I'm just like, why does the cop not die at the end? Infuriating. But but she gets that line.

What's the procedure at the end and gets to throw it back in his face? And man, I just wanted I just wanted him to just like burst into tears and just hit the ground after that right like just be he should just be like everyone let's all everyone go home i'm a piece of shit yeah we i mean it's like i don't even think he loses sleep that night like he's just it's so fucking infuriating but i i am glad that frankie got like got a last line in on it but it's just it's oh it's so devastating and infuriating and oh and and vivica a fox is just like such a powerhouse like it's so it's so good oh like during that scene he's like no everyone stand down fellow police lower your weapons i'm

gonna go talk to the this woman and it's like it is i good cop and it's uh this again this this like the trope of like the white male police officer who just wants to help you he's like help me help you we see the same thing in the film and louise we see the same thing in national treasure harvey kaitel plays both of those characters and then among other films harvey kaitel plays good cop a lot yes so it's just this trope that is a part of the whole like copaganda like just like pro-cop mentality that is so prevalent in Hollywood but I just I do not understand why that is in this movie this movie that is about like the unfairness and injustice that is the cycle of poverty that so many black people are forced into and which is reinforced by police and why then bring in a cop character who is like that we're supposed to be endeared to and sympathetic to yeah and it's like the whole this whole character like this whole stock

character falls apart under a moment of scrutiny but hasn't stopped anyone from writing it yeah okay so then and then there's stoney yes stoney who is i mean like the she seemed i i guess i don't know i mean i guess as close as you could get to him i think that it's very much an ensemble movie but stoney i feel like probably gets the most screen time out of everybody but she we we start off by seeing her advocating for her brother trying to get him out of this cycle of poverty and then he's subjected to police brutality he's murdered it i thought it was so beautiful and like a really important thing to include to watch her mourn him with her friends. It's a tough scene, but it feels like one that the audience really needs.

Cause it's like, she's what five-year plan it's, it's taken from her. And then immediately she has to get back to work and she has to like move forward with her life, kind of whether she likes it or not. And, and then, and then, and then there's Keith. to work and she has to like move forward with her life kind of whether she likes it or not and yeah and then and then and then there's keith and then there's keith

i think i mean there are some things that keith does and he he gets like he negs where one may maybe not want him to he does hit on her in his place of work he's not even doing his job right he's like i'm not even supposed to talk to customers but you were just too hot for me to not talk to which is a classic guy that you don't end up in a relationship with mine but what can you do um yeah but i originally because i feel like we talk about this a lot of like is the romance story necessary to the to what's happening in the plot and i think that this relationship is important and it has a place in the movie i was prepared to not not think that but ultimately i feel like it does yeah i guess i can very easily envision a version of this movie where that storyline is removed and it not really affecting the whole plot in a way that I feel like there's something lacking.

But the fact that it is there, it also doesn't bother me. I guess I'm just kind of ambivalent about it. You know, I mentioned that I was watching this movie earlier on Twitter and somebody mentioned how they feel like the Blair Underwood character should have been cut out. And I mean, he has more of a narrative purpose, like in terms of thematically, than he does really like a movie purpose. I mean, he represents the kind of life, like in a sense, the kind of life that they could have if their circumstances had been different like he's basically just there for the contrast right so i mean like trying to i mean i guess in a sense the film was trying to you know make a difference like you know some black people have different lives,

and it's easier for some, and it's different for others. Like, I mean, and that seems like a very basic thing, but I almost feel like maybe people would feel differently about him being in it if there was some real conflict between him and Stoney about things. Like, the thing about Keith is that he's, once he learns, like what he's supposed to learn about, like, you know, working class black people are having a different experience. He learns it and that's really it.

And I mean, it would have been maybe interesting if it took him longer to learn that lesson. And there were like a few more, you know, like arguments arguments in which case then the themes of the movie could like show themselves in that argument. But I think that that's why he's there. Yeah. Right. But I agree that he, his kind of background could have been used to a greater effect and function

in the narrative than it is. I feel like it's, it starts to head in that direction but it doesn't quite get all the way there there definitely could have been other yeah just more kind of just thematic or whatever it is that gets explored that they don't happen to as much as they could have yeah i agree jordan that it's like it is this like outlet for a discussion about class to happen. And maybe it doesn't happen to the extent that it could or should. But I'm glad that it's there.

Like there, I mean, a lot of this stuff that's on. Is it their first date where he asks her what her five year plan is? If so, what are you doing? I would truly I would love to meet the man that does this. Like, that's so confusing to me. Like, is this what, is this a job interview? Like, what do you? I have never, I don't think like met much less gone on a date with a fancy banker.

But if this is how they talk, my God. But, but I mean, in that conversation alone, I feel like you get a lot of interesting conversations started. You have the five-year plan. But I mean, in that conversation alone, I feel like you get a lot of interesting conversations started. You have the five-year plan. You have Stoney saying, he's asking her, like, do you feel free? And she's like, no, I feel very much caged. And he kind of tries to like cutesy his way out of her saying that. But when he listens to her, and I agree that there, you know, maybe there would be more productive discussion

if they if the script had his character push back a little more because i feel like he represents kind of this like bootstraps mentality i guess of yeah like you know you work hard and you'll be successful and without taking into consideration all the forces of like if that were true then Frankie wouldn't be in this situation because she literally worked at a bank and she had that those opportunities taken from her for no reason and right I don't know yeah it definitely starts some interesting conversations and we're pretty sure that he made Stoney come and we're glad for that as well. Yeah. And the fact that he like doesn't really, you know, in the end when she just like drives

away and she's just like in Mexico, like he's like smiling when he's off the phone. He's just like, yes, this is fine. Like I like that he doesn't really do anything extra, like try to make their last conversation bad or like ask her to come back. Like he's like, no, she's gone. Yeah. Which is like, I mean, the ending shot, man, I'm like, maybe it's a little corny,

but I thought it was so beautiful. I thought it was great. It is. Yeah. And even the montage at the end, you're like, this is very 90s. Oh, and she's like reflecting on all the memories and laughing and crying. It's very pure.

I cried so much in the last 20 minutes of this movie. It is just like everything happens. I don't like that it's like implied that the cop is like doing her this huge favor by allowing her to survive and have to start a life in a place where she knows nobody in order to survive. But I do I do like that she, you know, I mean, she's just like so you how long this movie takes place over the course of what like maybe a few weeks yeah it's like a stoney is a miracle like she has to take on everything at once and has to push forward you know regardless and so she's still she's dealing with the grief of her brother being murdered by police because he had the same haircut as the actual perpetrator of the robbery yeah she's dealing with being coerced into sex by this creep just so she can

get money to pay for her brother's tuition like she's dealing with so much and just the gravity of everything i don't think we've mentioned yet, but in a lot of the, it didn't hit for me until about halfway through the movie that like the historical context of this movie is also, it takes place in LA two years after Rodney King or no, sorry, four years after Rodney King and two years after the 94 violent crime control

act from Clinton. So it's like, also it feels very, don't i mean a lot of usually when movies take place in la you're just like okay they couldn't afford to shoot somewhere else but in this movie it is very intentional that it's happening in la at this time and it informs a lot of what's happening yeah um yeah so any any any stuff anything else uh you guys wanted to hit on well one last thing about stoney um she cuts all her hair off at the end yes probably mostly so that she will not be as easily recognizable by anyone who might be looking for her um but she does become the baldest woman in charge absolutely by doing that um oh i had one more okay so i this is just a question for for the zoom room um there were murmurs i guess last year

of this movie being remade or sequel potentially withsa Rae in a production possibly writing a role and there were a lot of takes on um Clarkisha Kent's piece um was one of them in Entertainment Weekly arguing that this movie does not need to be remade um it was made correctly the first time but I guess I'll just I'll just uh I don't know is is I sort of I don't I don't know I don't think it needs to be remade but I think we should just have more movies with black women like yeah I don't I don't really see the point of this being remade I just think that yeah there should be more yeah yeah especially just watching it right now in this moment. So much of the story feels so incredibly relevant that it doesn't feel like there needs to be any kind of like update. Yeah.

In spite of Cait Lanier. Right. Yeah. What a bizarre person she is. Truly. Does anyone have any other thoughts? That was all I had. Truly. Does anyone have any other thoughts? That was all I had.

I just think people should watch it. I'm glad I finally did. Does it pass the Bechdel test? Of course. They're talking about robbing banks. They're talking about their lives. They're talking about all manner of things constantly.

They talk about everything also it passes many of the other tests including the duvernay test the vito russo test for sure so as far as our nipple scale in which we examine the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I want to give this probably like a four because it does so well to characterize these four main characters, show the nuances of their friendship, show the nuances of their situation, their desperation, the cycle of poverty that they're in, that they're kind of helpless to get out of. I mean, you know, it's a story about systemic racism and sexism, holding these characters back and limiting their options. And for them, the option becomes crime, you know, not because they're inherently criminals or bad people or because they want to commit crime, you know, not because they're inherently criminals or bad people or because they want to commit crime, but because they have no other choice. Again, as Black women, the odds are

stacked against them and desperate times call for desperate measures. And unfortunately for these characters, the law catches up with them and several of them are killed, which is sadly reflective of many Black people's lives, where they're severely punished for just trying to survive. And the systems in place, you know, systems being law enforcement, the workforce, economic structures, etc. These systems are incapable or unwilling to acknowledge or understand that the systems are designed to oppress different groups of people, such as Black people, Black women. And I think that this story really effectively tackles those themes and that reality. And, you know, the fact that you have queer visibility on screen is great. A queer black

woman especially is something that I've seen very little of in popular media and just media in general, especially from the 90s. So that was pretty remarkable for a mainstream studio movie um i guess the main gripe is the over sympathy that the movie extends to the friendly white cop who just wants to help and it's like like jordaine like you said like if that were true if he wanted to help in any way he would like defund himself and you know give give his salary yeah to the women he could he could have spent all that time investigate that he spent investigating like making sure that these women were okay like right which is what he claims to be doing the whole time. Yeah. But he's not. So I'll give it four nipples and I'll give one to Stoney, Frankie, Cleo and Titi. I will. I'll go the same way. I'll do four nipples and piggybacking off what you've already said.

I would also say I wish that there were more black women in high level creative roles on this movie and that the movie was uh benefited from you know maybe not hiring kate lanier mrs i'm white but am i um so i i understand that it's i mean we have like f gary gray we who is like truly a legend and like we have a lot of wonderful people in creative roles uh but they're you know this is a movie that is centered on black women and there should be black women behind the camera as well also yeah the weird cop thing and also just the failure to characterize detective Waller uh in any way is just a dumb decision i thought but the performances in this movie are fucking incredible the soundtrack i don't think we've brought up yet but it's fucking incredible and um yeah required viewing for everybody

four nipples one two um each of the four leads jordaine how about you um sure yes four nipples, one to each of the four leads. Jordaine, how about you? Sure, yes. Four nipples. A rousing sure. Sure. I know you're probably tired. It's quite late where you are right now.

Yeah, it is late where I am. I was like, oh no, we've been recording for so long. long well jordaine thank you so much for joining us in this discussion where can people follow your stuff follow your social media etc you can find me on twitter at j-o-u-r-d-a-y-e-n and also that on Instagram and uh you can find my rating everywhere you know I've written for like Vogue and GQ and AV Club and I write for Bitch Media a lot that's a great website can't can't endorse Bitch Media enough so yeah we've I think I think we've we've cited your work a number of times on the show before to the point where it's like why has jordaine not simply been on the show thank you so much for for being here yeah and listen to bad romance podcast oh yeah please

do listen to bad romance podcast it's good you know it's good bronwyn's good it's good. Bronwyn's good. It's good. Hell yeah. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. We've got our Patreon, a.k.a. Matron. It's $5 a month and it gives you two bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog. We've got our TeePublic store, teepublic.com slash the Bechtel cast for all your merchandising needs. Thanks for listening. And we'll be back next week. Bye. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk

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