The Bechdel Cast - She's the Man with Samee Junio

Episode Date: September 27, 2018

Caitlin and Jamie invite special guest Samee Junio to discuss She's the Man and whether or not we like cheese. We're brilliant! Shh!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @Samee_Junio on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

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and I have been professionally podcasting for 10 years. The podcast game Apple Podcasts, or anything that catches my attention. Listen to the I Am Rapaport Stereo Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the Bechdel cast hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast my name is Caitlin Durante my name is Jamie Loftus I'm sick today you're sick everyone should feel so bad for me I feel so

bad for you I'm just wandering the streets just getting passerby to be like are you sick oh my god I'm so sorry so we are the Bechdel cast we talk about the portrayal of women in movies yeah we use the bechdel test as a test that just initiates a larger conversation for us a larger conversation about the representation of women in cinema the bechdel test is a test that requires that two female identifying characters in a movie have names. They speak to each other. And their conversation is not about a man. Yes.

Hey, let's demo it. Let's. Caitlin. Hey, Jamie. Have you ever tried Pedialyte? I don't think that I have. I've had two jugs. They only sell them in jug form for some reason i've had

two jugs of pedialyte in the past 24 hours and i started very anti-pedialyte but like in movies the pedialyte wore me down and now i'm fully in love with pedialyte it's my beverage of choice wow i love it replacing mike's hard lemonade Okay, now it doesn't pass anymore because you brought Mike into the conversation. Oh, sure. Unbelievable. My B. Yeah, I think that Pedialyte's my new chaser. Okay, good.

Yeah, just take a swig of vodka and then a swig of Pedialyte. You're basically sober. Now, Pedialyte is like a children's beverage, yes? But you also drink it when you're sick. It's supposed to keep you hydrated and safe. You know what other occasion you might need to be hydrated? Like playing soccer. I see where this is going, yeah.

For example. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You did that this morning. I did that this morning. I know. It was fun. My team won. Really?

Yeah. Sorry, it just sounds like shock. That's exciting. Thank you. Yeah. And also soccer related is the movie we're talking about today. Well, you're talking about she's the man.

This is like, uh, our second soccer movie and our second Shakespeare adaptation we've discussed recently. Yes, indeed. Observation complete. And second movie recently also by the screenwriting duo of Karen McCullough and

Kirsten Smith. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. Wow. Oh, yes. I mean, they're, you know, they're the Shakespeare gals. Yeah, right.

Is that what their podcast is called? Just kidding. Yep, yep, yep. So to join us in our discussion about the movie, our guest today is the producer of Historical Roast and Fictional Roast, the producer of many podcasts, including Forever 35 and Mother May I Sleep With, Sammy Junio.

Hello, it's me. Hello. My dear friend. Sam's the man. It's me. Reboot. All Sammy Junio reboot. One.

Have you tried the electrolyte? They've rebranded Pedialyte to be Electro-y-t electrolyte or electrolyte and they sell it at 7-elevens and i i've consumed crates of it it's great whoa yeah so you don't have to buy a jug you can just buy a i was feeling the stigma of the pedialyte jug because i was just like carrying it outside on Saturday night. And everyone's like, she's very sick. She's demented. If I'm going to buy a beverage.

But she's hydrated. Yeah. Be careful. She's demented and very hydrated. So, Sammy, tell us about your relationship, your history with She's the Man. Oof. Well, I've seen it maybe 13 times in the past day. Okay.

Just like once every two hours? Yeah. It has to be on the loop. I'm watching it maybe 13 times in the past day. Just like once every two hours? Yeah, exactly. It has to be on the loop. I'm watching it right now. I can't. It's in my Google Glass. I watched it a lot when I was younger, and I think this movie is so, so flawless and perfect and wonderful and magical, and that's it.

That's my relationship. I'm married to the movie. Okay, great. I can't. 12 years strong. Unbelievable. Inspiring. Yeah, truly. wonderful and magical and that's it that's my relationship i'm married to the movie okay great i can't 12 years strong unbelievable inspiring yeah truly congratulations i'm also cosplaying you are as an illyrian yes you are we will take a photograph we will post it on our instagram sammy is dressed as sebastian and she's the man my God. You're looking very dapper. Thank you so much. Jamie, what's your history with She's the Man?

Saw it this morning. Yep. Yep. Thoughts? Loved it. Yeah. Absolutely loved it. Isn't it fun?

Yes, it's so fun. And because it was, this was like one of the many, like the decade preceding this, and I think that they sort of like peter out after this, but this was one of many Shakespeare adaptations coming out in the late 90s into the 2000s for teenagers. It was like this bizarre movie fad. And this was kind of the last and the best that I've seen of all of them. Oh, wait, what were the other ones? I've got a hot list.

Ten Things I Hate About You. Ten is true. Recent episode. Ten is true. Romeo Plus Juliet. That baz, that baz that bazaster as I like to call

it whoa the bazaster piece called Kayla's horrified with me turn off the lights

that bazastrous piece there's others I have a power list somewhere I'll find it you're hurting

me so much what's happening I just turned into who's the who's the nerdy girl in this movie? I sound like her. Oh, Eunice. Oh, I can't wait to talk about Eunice. Eunice. I saw this movie, I think when it first came out in 2006. And I really enjoyed it. But for some reason, it was not a DVD that I ever added to my collection. So I didn't watch it throughout the years which was a mistake because i have seen this movie maybe four to five times in the past you've been five days addicted yeah

i'm obsessed now i i'm surprised because you are you you are such a soccer head that i thought this thank you that is my stripper name soccer headcerhead. Soccerhead. Thank you. Coming to the stage. Soccerhead. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't latch on to it more. And this movie is certainly not without its flaws. There is a whole lot to discuss. Oh, also Motocrossed.

Do you remember that one? Yes, on Disney Channel. Yeah, also a Twelfth Night adaptation. They all end up having the same stupid like boy hair though. Just like a really weird like flat mop. Which I did admittedly have. There's also an adaptation of Twelfth Night called

Just One of the Guys from 1985. And a gender swapped one called Ladybugs. Oh, I didn't realize that that was what that was. Yeah. Look at that. Is that was. Yeah. There you go. Look at that. Is that another soccer movie?

Mm-hmm. Gnomeo and Juliet. Sherlock Gnomes. That's just another movie. That's not Shakespeare. Well, one of the fun things about Twelfth Night in Shakespeare days, women weren't allowed to perform as actors on stage. So in this play, women aren't allowed

to do anything. So the actor who played Viola in Shakespearean times would have had to have been a man playing the role of a woman who then pretends to be a man. So it's like gender swapping and then gender swapping back. I'd like to see what that actor thought that looked like. Yeah. Well, and there are a few. We don't need to talk about Shakespeare that much today, but this is such a good adaptation of a Shakespeare play

because, first of all, you can't necessarily tell. That's a Shakespeare adaptation. The names aren't goofy, except for Malvolio the snake. No, the spider. Feminist icon, Malvolio the spider. And it's just like all the stuff that sounds really Shakespearean was taken out. Originally, Viola thought that her brother died at sea, which would have been an interesting thing to introduce it to this but i'm glad that they're just like oh he's in london with his freaking shoegaze band have either of you read the play oh no i can't read oh sure sure sure sure i have read it okay i haven't read it um

but again i wikipedia'd the wowie i know so uh again i'm a scholar but um it seems as though the story in 12th night is much more romance oriented and there's no attempt to like dismantle any sort of like gender norms or anything like that of soccer no soccer at all it's i think file is just trying to literally get a job which is like kind of upsetting. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, shall I do the recap of the movie? Let's do it. All right. This is another.

This is a complicated one. Okay. So Viola, played by Amanda Bynes. Yes. I know the beginning song. I know all of the songs. I'm so sorry. Sammy, this is a no shame zone.

You're right. Yeah. Please. Please. When the moment where Dirty Little Secret starts playing, I would encourage you to just really sing the whole song. Did you guys notice that there are two All-American Reject songs in this movie? Yes. In a row even.

It's basically an Abercrombie. Oh, God. It is. I bet they smell like that. Oh, my. Oh, God. You know that the set of She like that. I'm like, oh, God. You know, the set of She's the Man reeked of Hollister fragrances. Absolutely.

I used to work at Hollister anyway. Yes. It was the worst month of my life. Okay. Viola is played by Amanda Bynes, and she loves soccer. Her boyfriend, Justin, tells her, oh, my gosh, you're, like like better than half the guys on my team. But then her school cuts the women's soccer team. Due to lack of interest.

Right. So when Viola wants to try out for the men's team, her boyfriend who had just told her, yeah, you're really good at soccer, is like, you're a girl and you're not good enough. So she breaks up with him. Toxic. Now she's got something to prove. for a second was Drake Bell and that would have been perfect casting also. Oh. I was telling Caitlin the other day that I discovered that Jesse McCartney was supposed to be that guy. Oh Jesse would have also been great. They both have those soft soft childlike features. Were y'all into Dream Street? No. I don't know what that is. It was Jesse McCartney's boy band. Oh. I didn't know he was in a boy band. I thought he was so low. Oh, my gosh. You have to listen to Dream Street.

It goes, baby down on Dream Street. And it's like Jesse McCartney as a boy soprano. It's unbelievable. Incredible. Yeah. Wow. Anyways. Okay.

So Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, decides to go to London for a couple weeks instead of going to school at a private school called Illyria, which is nearby to Cornwall where Viola goes to school. Which is a fun Shakespearean reference for all you Shakespeare heads out there. So then Viola decides to pretend to be her brother so that she can play soccer on the boys team at Illyria and beat her ex-boyfriend, Justin, who had told her that she was a girl. So she's not good enough in the rival game that they have coming up in two weeks or 12 days, 12 nights.

Really quick. Yeah. Why does no one at Viola school notice that she's gone? Yes. Good question, Jamie. The movie does not address that. And it is a plot hole, but I think we should just...

I buy the divorced parents, but I was like, Viola's straight up, there's another world where this is like Gone Girl. Because if a white girl does not show up for her first day of junior year, it's Gone Girl. Right. Or a recent release, Searching searching which i did see in theaters the other day brag was it good i enjoyed it yeah oh wow anyway so viola as sebastian meets her roommate duke played by channing tatum and i'm brilliant oh this movie's so funny um duke and everyone else basically thinks that sebastian is lame viola as sebastian i think for the sake of clarity and ease of talking when i say sebastian what i mean is viola pretending to be sebastian and then when i say the real sebastian that's

right so so sebastian tries out for the soccer team the men's soccer team and makes second string and then when I say the real Sebastian that's not Drake Bell. Right. So Sebastian tries out for the soccer team, the men's soccer team and makes second string. Second string. This is all I'm doing during here. Recap. I'm so sorry. I'm not sorry. Welcome to Elyria. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome,

welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome to Elyria. Sorry. You're welcome. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Elyria. Yep. Sorry. You're welcome. So, thank you. So then in order for Sebastian to seem cooler, he uses her, she uses Viola. It's just confusing.

Viola uses her friends Kia and Yvonne to pretend to like throw themselves at Sebastian. And then it works. And now Duke and all of his friends are like wow Sebastian uh she's the man that's the name of the movie yeah they all say that in unison and we're like what how's that possible it's only 45 minutes in so meanwhile Duke likes their classmate Olivia and she's dreamy asks Sebastian for help to like try to get with her and then in exchange Duke will be like I'll help you improve your soccer game Sebastian so that you can make first string so then Olivia starts to like Sebastian so now we've got this whole love

triangle thing Olivia likes Sebastian pretty much the second she meets him right right right right those dropped books in the hall and she gives him a look. Oh, my God. Twitter painted. I wanted them to kiss so bad. That is my biggest beef is that. That they don't kiss in this movie? Yeah, they don't kiss.

And then we don't see the repercussion of Olivia recognizing that she had a crush on a girl playing a boy. I'm like, well, what about that, Olivia? Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, I feel like Olivia is ultimately kind of short-changed because she's like, I just love whoever was named Sebastian. I'm like, that seems a little reductive and confusing. Yeah. So then Sebastian, a.k.a. Viola, starts to like Duke.

And Viola, as Viola. I mean. I mean and Duke is like dreamy. Yes Channing Tatum normally not my type but he's also like a comedic genius. He's so funny. He's so funny. Every time I talk about Channing Tatum I turn into a woman I hate. I'm like he's just so he's like, you wouldn't think but like, he's so funny. It's true. I know. Anyways. So then Viola as Viola and Duke kiss at a kissing booth at a carnival, which is a fundraiser for a debutante ball, which is a whole subplot that we'll talk about later on. Yeah. The kissing booth tenuous loved every second. Right. Do kissing booth, tenuous. Loved every second of it. Right. Do kissing booths, are they even legal nowadays? Like, at all, ever?

Yeah, there is. I don't think they exist anymore, and I feel like there's a real big stretch. It's like, oh, this is a fun game of carnival assault. Like, what the fuck is this? And also the fact that, like, Viola's mom was like, yeah, this rules. Like, I don't know if I believe that either. Right. So now Viola's mom was like, yeah, this rules. I don't know if I believe that either. So now Viola likes Duke.

And Duke kind of likes Viola, but he still has feelings for Olivia. So he's confused. You take her, you kiss her, you kiss the crap out of her. Thank you for your contributions. Hey, you're welcome. Can't cut me out of this one, baby. So Olivia, to make Sebastian jealous, starts to pay attention to Duke. And then there's this whole thing where she marches up and kisses the real Sebastian who comes back from London a day early.

And then he plays in the first half of the big rival soccer game also monique is there the whole right there's the whole monique situation yeah viola as sebastian is like hey brother i've been impersonating you sorry but i'm gonna play the rest of the soccer game and duke is mad at Sebastian because he thinks that he betrayed him by kissing Olivia. And then... So Sebastian's a fucking idiot for being like, I guess I'm on the soccer team now. Like, what? What are you... Sir? You just have to suspend your disbelief.

Roll with it. So then in the middle of the game, the real Sebastian shows his junk. Viola as Sebastian's like, actually, I'm a girl. And Duke, I love you. And he's like, what's happening? LOL, OK. And then the whole con is revealed. Duke's like, this is weird.

I feel weird about this. So the jig is up, but there's still the debutante ball. So Viola's like, hey hey would you want to come to the ball with me and uh he's like oh no but then he goes and then they kiss they slurp can i just like for your consideration the day of the big game let's just walk through sebastian's day the night before he walks into a room he's never been, finds that all of his stuff is already there. Yes. And appears lived in.

He's fine with it. He's like, well, I'm tired. He goes to sleep. Well, he says like, oh, Vi, you set up all my stuff for me. Cool. So he addresses it, but it's like, it is weird. But like, what the fuck? Okay.

He goes to sleep, wakes up, a whole soccer team's like the game is happening and he's like okay maybe i'll see the girl who kissed me at this soccer game why would that be true we don't know oh because she says see you at the game tomorrow right right she also surprise kisses him which we can mention but but he goes to the game accepts that he is one of the best players on the team and then in the middle of the game, someone challenges his gender and he's like, you know what? I know this day has been all over the place so far,

but I'm just going to go ahead and drop my pants in front of a stadium full of people. Right. Because David Cross is not sure what's going on. Like, absolutely insane. Anyways, that's Sebastian's day. Yeah, no, excellent point, Jamie. But if you had that kind of day, wouldn't you roll with it?

I mean, by the time he's asked to drop his pants, I'm like, you know what, at this point, this day has already been confusing. And on that note, we're going to take a quick break and we'll talk to you in a second. out. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

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All right, so for this movie, you can kind of just like boil down the story of in order to prove that a woman is as capable and is equal to men, she disguises herself as a man to prove a point. If you can't join them, beat them. Right. Love it. So that gives us a lot to prove a point if you can't join them beat them right love it so that gives us a lot to talk about so on one hand there's like in the very beginning of the movie there you know they go to try to try out for the boys soccer team when the girls realize that they've been cut and the coach of the boys team is all like uh actually um girls aren't as fast as boys or as strong or as athletic uh this is just science so and we in the audience were like whoa whoa what what um excuse me pump those brakes and then justin the boyfriend agrees with the coach and then he is immediately dumped so at least we get to see some like misogyny and sexism being punished

right away. And I think that that is like a moment, I don't know, that was a moment that I connected with quite a bit of like dating someone in high school who would be like, you're awesome, you're smart, you know, but only in one on one situations. And then in front of guy friends, or friends in general, their attitude towards you shifts because they're insecure. Right. We've got this misogyny being punished. And then we've got a headstrong woman seeking to dismantle this idea that women aren't as good as men at soccer specifically. And then she goes undercover.

She puts on the disguise. There's a whole makeover montage. But unlike we see in most movies where if it's a woman getting a makeover, it's like, oh, you weren't as physically attractive as you needed to be. So let's make you hotter. The utility of this makeover montage is very different. Yes. Because. It furthers the mission right it is

mostly just her trying on mustaches which she never ends up using in her disguise bummer i feel like sebastian viola sebastian would kill with a mustache a little push broom on top of there bang bang boom could do anything there was like a there was a oh i forget what cartoon villain she had a few cartoon villain mustaches on oh absolutely like the long droopers the whiskers yeah anyways they threw in jesus in there too they did beautiful what a montage what that was a fun because i wrote i was in the middle of writing down mon and then i was like oh but wait it's good yeah yeah so she's the man kind of puts this like i suppose a feminist spin on the narrative that like 12th night doesn't have where it's like yeah she's she's showing

that she's just as capable as men and that she's equal to men. But I would argue that there are several instances where different characters, Viola as Sebastian included, participate in either sexist or homophobic behavior that often goes completely unchallenged. So for example, there are several moments when boys behave badly and Viola doesn't do anything to challenge it. Viola as Sebastian. For example, there's a scene where Viola as Sebastian first goes into her dorm room. There's like all the soccer player guys there and they see tampons and they're like very grossed out by it. Later on, like Duke can't even say the word tampon.

Yeah. But he does use one. He does use progress. I felt like that was kind of commented on a little bit. Progress. But I do agree where there are, like, oftentimes the hurdles Viola has to get through are rooted in or she'll get out of by behaving in a misogynist way. And then they're so, like, overcome by overcome by like misogyny is so fucking cool that they forget what the thing they were about to be critical of was right but i well yeah i'm

i don't know so it worked for me uh several times yeah and and at least whenever she participates in the misogyny it's because she's trying to maintain this disguise. Because there's several times where she's like, feelings and, you know, sensitivity and I'm going to say a nice thing. And they're like, oh, what are you talking about? She's like, oh, I mean, which one would you rather see naked? So, but then in that same scene, Duke counters that by challenging that idea, which is something that I really liked about Duke's character. And there are flaws in every character and there are moments that feel off

with pretty much everyone at some point, for me anyways. But that scene I really liked because Viola was kind of falling on the crutch of like, let me behave or say something misogynist and that will distract from what I was just doing. And then that's one of the few times that it doesn't actually work. And we find out that Duke is a sensitive man. A feminist icon. Well, yeah. Duke Rossino, feminist icon. And so handsome.

Sorry, my face is like leaking up a storm. And I'm like, no, but Channing Tatum is great. But that scene I thought was really effective where Viola falls on the crutch and then Duke counters by saying like, well, that's not all a relationship is for me is I want to be able to talk with. And then he literally says to her, to Sebastian, why do you always say stuff like that? Like, why do you why do you always talk about women that way? And I was like, oh. And that's one of the things I like about Duke's character in this movie a lot is that the setup of almost every high school movie is that someone needs to be,

someone needs to change someone else in order for a relationship to happen. And it's not like, I think it would be very easy for this movie to be like emotional labor thrust upon viola uh some have emotional labor thrust upon them uh is that you know viola would have to cure duke of his own internalized misogyny but that doesn't really happen where it comes out in private moments usually. But Duke already is pretty respectful towards women and doesn't need to be like changed in that way. There's another there's a similar moment earlier on where they're at the cafeteria and Viola as Sebastian is again attempting to fit in with the guys by like that seems weird seeing he sees Olivia or she I don't know what pronouns to use well in this pronoun expert Sammy who knew yes just kidding um I think well it should just be her because she's still she's still identifying

as Viola as a woman but I mean yeah yeah, I think that that's probably it. So... Pronoun expert. This has been Pronoun Expert. That's all the time I have. Goodbye. Okay, so fake Sebastian sees Olivia and is like, oh, look at the booty on that blondie. God, such 2006 vernacular.

A lot of G money is being tossed about here. I was like, oh, Lord. Just like Viola trying to be a boy just like overly does it all the way. And I think that's like whenever Viola overcompensates by being like super misogynistic after being like sensitive or whatever, all of the boys around her are like, i don't think that's that's not it though well i would argue that in this scene though well yeah because they're they're i mean i think it's because of the presence of a of a woman that they're like oh yeah like we can really do this with because it's about a girl but like every other time they're kind of just like i don't

you're weird right so do whenever like sebastian's like oh check out the booty on that blondie and then duke is like don't talk about her that way and so we're like oh okay duke feminist icon great but then his friends toby and andrew say like oh yeah she was just dating this college guy but he dumped her so now she's like super vulnerable her confidence and self-esteem are really low so like now's the time to pounce and they're like yeah and then like duke duke doesn't respond at least verbally to that so it's like i'm not really inclined to give duke a point there because the only woman he stands up for is the one he has feelings for true uh. And that same respect, he doesn't stand up for Yvonne

or what's the name of the other friend? Oh, Kia. He doesn't stand up for them. He just stands up for the girl that he's had a crush on for his whole life. Right, right, right. And then also, anytime he has to interact with the Eunice character, he's always like, oh, I don't want to talk to Eunice. That's also everyone.

That's true. Except the ending, which I need to watch the movie again. like i don't want to talk to eunice that's also everyone she's that's true and except except the ending which i need to watch the movie again that comes totally out of nowhere right or is that foreshadowed in any way what the eunice ending up with what's that character's name oh that's i think toby oh no he says he says something about eunice Oh, does he? There's two other times. So once they think that Sebastian is the top dog, oh, no, no, no, it's before that, when Duke is paired up with Eunice in lab, he goes, yeah, Eunice got a little something, something.

Right. Oh, it is foreshadowed. And then also in Cesario's, when it's the double date between Duke and Olivia and Viola and Eunice, he goes, oh, it looks like Eunice is cooler than we thought. And he goes, oh, what? I've been saying that for years. I hate high school.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. But so the scene. This movie is so well. Look, I. Those are all direct quotes. It probably is.

I've also watched this movie with commentary. So to speak on Channing's sensitivity, he actually, he wears a ring around his neck. And he said that that was a character choice because he wanted it to be his mother's ring just to like play on the fact that he's like super sensitive and stuff. And if you watch him through the entire movie, he does like react really weird when Sebastian goes like nutty because he defends olivia in the cafeteria but also when they're setting the trap that sebastian is really cool like he's also like this is gross like he gets really i didn't interpret it that way i feel

like he was like oh well like sebastian's the man so let's talk about that scene so that's the first scene we see in like the pizzeria where... Cesario's another fun Shakespeare ref. Ooh, cute. Swish. So Sebastian, fake Sebastian, is trying to seem cooler to their peers. I'm just gonna use they pronouns.

That's the easiest thing for me right now. It's not it. Okay. Pronoun expert. So we should be saying she she yeah yeah also maybe to not come off as offensive i'm non-binary and my pronouns are sam they there so i feel like i've like i've gone through a pronoun journey myself and i feel like the appropriate thing is she right okay come at me if that's not true it's okay i'll learn as well dimensions are open right okay so fake

sebastian sets up this whole thing it's actually her friend paul is like yeah we're gonna make you seem cool so then kia and ivan viola's friends pretend to throw themselves at fake sebastian and then the guys on the soccer team are like whoa whoa, like, Sebastian's a fucking stud. Like, he's getting all kinds of women. And they just think that he's the cat's meow. Then. Sorry, I'm listening. Speaking of cats, though, this is not an intentional segue, but cats do have eight nipples. Cat facts with Caitlin.

But anyway, so. She had to do it to them. Right. So this whole, like, scam basically works. do have eight nipples cat facts with caitlin but anyway so she had to do it to them right so this whole like scam basically works and now duke and his friends are like wow sebastian's the man but that whole scene requires fake sebastian to heavily objectify these women to me it seems like duke is like oh wow like sebastian's so It's like, it's a quick cutaway. And he just, like, does this for a second.

He dabs. Yeah, he dabs. Before all of the hoopla comes, like, he's just like, what is this? Like, it's a very quick thing. I watched this movie so closely so many times. So you think he's... But after the girls' situation, then they're like, oh, yeah, make room for the man because that's it. But there's a second.

I feel like that's not enough. I feel like he's still subscribing to. I missed that shot. Yeah. I'll screenshot it to you. I totally believe you. Yeah, that whole scene, I was just like, is anyone acting like anything here? Like, what is happening which is just like it's really

unfortunate that that's the way that a boy has to fit in is to be this gross dude that has many girls and insults and just uses them clearly and then everyone's like oh yeah you're a really great guy it's like why right and i know misogyny is alive and well now 2006 not my experience really i mean i'm sorry caitlin is somehow escaped right but but the the fact that that ends with um viola like confronts monique because monique is in this scene too which is like the closest call because monique would know who sebastian isn't right because monique is in this scene too which is like the closest call because Monique would know who Sebastian isn't right because Monique is real Sebastian's girlfriend right and that character is also all over the place where she is like a bitch but we don't really know why or know anything about her right um and it does seem like she's perhaps being emotionally abused by Sebastian but

anyways uh she shows up and she's like, where's Sebastian? And then she doesn't recognize that it's not her own boyfriend. And Viola is like, you're ugly. I'm breaking up with you. And then Viola fully, everyone's like, yeah, that hot lady is, you yelled at her. And then end of scene. It's so insane. so i think the point here is that it's unfortunate that we see in in a movie that has the opportunity to have more challenging of sexist ideals of like yeah a guy is a stud whenever he has slept with a bunch of women and that's the approach that they use for sebastian to seem cooler to her peers but that could have been an opportunity for viola to be like no i'm not gonna like subscribe to this i'm gonna like fine i mean i get it it's

it was an easy choice and it worked but i don't know like i just have higher hopes than is reasonable to expect out of a movie from 2006 so it's just it's kind of a bummer that that's the scene that plays out to get viola as sebastian to be accepted by her peers but could also be seen as a very heightened version of what would be realistic because they like for the sake of argument the group of guys the soccer dudes are like interpreting sebastian's masculinity as abnormal that he's like a weird dude um because viola s sebastian is acting very weird right like uh and is acting like a crazy person and you know that is like the example of the opposite like if you can't beat them join them where viola is playing to what they do understand to be masculinity in order for them to be like

well yeah he's a freak but he fucks, that is all that that is trying to accomplish. And it's successful. Right. Yeah, I don't really know where I land on it because it's also a very funny scene and it, like... Well, the fact that, except for Monique, the Monique thing made me feel bad for her. But Kia and Yvonne are, like, so in on it

that it's, like like fun for them. And it's like you don't have to feel guilt, which is maybe like a horrible loophole. It's like you don't have to feel guilty watching these women be kind of like yelled at and groped because it's their friend. Right. But that is so funny. I don't know. Yeah. It's complicated.

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So the next thing I wanted to talk about is, oh, God, there's so much. Okay. Yeah. Really quickly, I really like that Olivia likes who she thinks is Sebastian because Viola, as as Sebastian is sensitive. And isn't this like big, tough, macho guy? And that's like the main thing that appeals to Olivia about Sebastian. Relatable.

Yes. TBH, Viola Sebastian, pretty good looking kid. I hear it. Yeah. Cute and sweet and yeah, like not threatening and not, like, just, like, carrying around a bunch of, like, machismo everywhere. That's how I describe myself. Mugging, to speak to what you texted me earlier, Caitlin, mugging maybe a few too many times to the point where it's like, is this a feature film? Maybe.

Yeah. Amanda Bynes mugs a whole lot. But it, like is this a feature film uh maybe yeah amanda binds mugs a whole lot but it like also works it works for me it's and then viola and olivia have a conversation whenever viola as sebastian is trying to get olivia to date duke and she's like no like he just seems like another one of these dumb jocks that you you know, wants to hook up with a girl so that, you know, he can tell all his friends about it. But we learn that that isn't true about Duke. And then that's one of the main reasons that Viola is into him then, because they have these like long discussions, like what Duke thinks is like a man on man powwow. But what he doesn't know is Sebastian's real

identity. But yeah, I like that in many cases in this movie, and not all the time, because we just talked about the times that this doesn't happen, but sexist behavior behavior behavior is appreciated and rewarded i suppose so that's nice because in a lot of movies like this where let's go back to like 10 things i hate about you for example in that movie it's like okay we've got a feminist headstrong character but those qualities are seen to be very shrewish and so no one likes her because of that yeah and then the guy lies to her throughout the entire movie and then he is rewarded even though he's been behaving badly i'll say it again uh 10 things i hate about you it's a stinker i know everyone's attached to it but as someone new to the 10 Things I Hate About You fold, it's stinker. Well, that's a boo from Jamie.

Okay. Well, I get it. It does not handle a lot of things well at all. Show me one thing it does handle well. It's a stinker. Boo, boo, boo. All right. I feel like you were singing a different tune a few episodes ago when we talked about it.

I feel like you said you liked the movie. Can I tell you i watched it again oh and i liked it even less the second day oh interesting yeah yeah that'll happen anyway so back to she's i almost call it she's all that okay oh also a good one yeah well oh it's a stinker anotherer dreamy teen rom-coms and another example of a movie where bad behavior and misogyny is not punished and is instead

rewarded the only thing that you need to do to get a boyfriend is change literally everything about you oh that's what I have to do shut up

politics dang it so anyway I like how this movie handles a lot of things and that the whole movie is like a quest for a woman to prove that she is as capable as men. And then succeeds in achieving that. But there are more problems.

Here they are. For example, there are quite a few no homo moments. Yeah. It's usually between Dukeke and viola as sebastian so for most of the movie duke thinks that sebastian is a cis het man but then there are moments where sebastian will like linger too long on a hug or be like you're not good at talking to girls how can that be you're hot and then duke always responds with disgust yeah yeah and then there's like a moment where the tarantula the spider the eight-legged female spider spider facts with caitlin yeah feminist

icon malvolio shows up in their dorm room and then they both scream and get on the bed, and they're, like, holding each other. And then when— Which starts as a good moment, and then it's kind of sold out. Yeah. So Duke's all like, oh, gross, and don't ever do that girl voice again. That freaked me out. So— Why can't they just both be afraid of the spider?

Also, why don't they sit down and listen to what Malvolio has to say? Because he's read The Feminine Mystique, and he has a lot of really good points he'd like to make. And he's a feminist icon. And I think that there's a direction to this movie where if they just sat down and had discourse with the spider, you know, things would have ended differently. I know. Yeah. We should invite the spider on the podcast to see what... Malvolio's a queer icon as well. I mean, this is like, I've had great talks with Malvolio.

Anyways. So, and then during the soccer game at the end, whenever Viola is like, I love you, Duke. And he's like, what? This is weird. And Viola's like, I'm Viola. I kissed you. And he's like, oh, gross. No, you didn't.

Because he, again, still thinks that Sebastian is a boy so there's these different moments that like I it is very like to that I mean it still happens now but like 2000s queer panicky moments right that didn't need to be there and you could argue oh well you know it's in line with Duke's character but they also had an opportunity to subvert that trope of casual homophobia in movies and they didn't so one of the things I liked best about this movie is that uh for the first half of Da Big Game which why don't all movies end with Da Big Game uh so they're at Da Big Game, which why don't all movies end with Da Big Game? So they're at Da Big Game.

And the first half is just like real Sebastian being chaotic and is like, yes, I am soccer now. Here's my dick. And you're just like, what is happening? And then but the fact that Viola gets to finish the game as herself and playing with her hair down, not in a ponytail, that's unrealistic, but go on. I was gonna ask you that. Okay. But the fact that she gets to finish the game as herself with total acceptance of her team and her coach, I thought was so great. I didn't think that that was going to happen. Yeah. I thought she was going to finish the game as Sebastian.

That is really cool. And then we see that moment where she reveals her true identity. She's like, I'm Viola. I played on the team to, you know, prove this point. And then the coach of the opposing team is like, girls can't play in this league. And he is the same guy at the beginning who was like, girls are scientifically bullshit. Right. Exactly. And then we get the great line read from coach, what is it, Dinklage?

Ooh, Sammy, take it away. Sammy did a great one. What manual? Here at Elyria, we don't discriminate based on gender. Beautiful. Thank you very much. That's my time. That's all I have.

My blood pressure is like rising with each moment that passes. Beautiful. So like you said, Jamie, the team at Elyria, the coach, they're all on board to have Viola play as herself. And then she gets the goal. She gets the goal. She scores the game-winning goal, thereby proving what she set out to prove. Here's a question.

The fact that, and these are like small gripes with a movie that does so much right, but Justin, her ex, one of the things we know about him is that Channing Tatum made him cry during a soccer game, and that is not masculine. And then at the end, Viola makes him cry during a soccer game and that is like you know not masculine and then at the end viola makes him cry but i still feel like it's like kind of it's that for all of justin's toxic masculinity is played for a laugh in a way that i was like oh man that's they missed that one of like this boy crying looks like so fucking dumb yeah and then when they talk about it before the time that duke makes him cry in an earlier game yeah it's all like we made that what a pussy he cried yeah and then they address him about it in person and he's like i didn't cry i got something in my eye or something like we're

gonna do drown me in your tears which is kind of funny so in a movie that at least attempts to celebrate like male sensitivity, it also does that. Mistakes were made. Mistakes were made. And there's more. There's more mistakes. There's also the mistake of if the situation was presented to the headmaster that a person was trying to pull off being the opposite gender and they decided to out them during this big old soccer game. Da big game.

With the loudspeaker, megaphone. Why is that the choice? Right. There's a lot of da big game mistakes. There's some third act fumbles. Kind of for sure. Fuck up a little bit. Yeah.

Because for all they know this sebastian person is trans and then for yeah for them to be like he's actually a girl and i'm not a girl and then he pulls down his pants everyone sees his penis e Eunice is having a wonderful time with it. Eunice has a conniption. Even though I'm pretty sure she is facing his butt and not his penis. But anyways, whatever mistakes were made. For Eunice, it's action. Until now, she's got, like, Toby, who's, like, a cutie.

Toby's cute. Toby's cute. And he knows tricks. But, yeah, Sammymy to your point not only would that be very problematic for them to out sebastian because they don't they don't know what the circumstances are right the other thing that this movie subscribes to is the idea that if you have a penis you're a man yeah and if you have breasts you are a woman she's the man right super cis normative because both fake and real sebastian to prove that they are the gender

that they identify as they reveal you know bathing suit parts we will say mom stop wow so cut that out nope i'm keeping it so yeah it's just subscribing to this idea that your genitals determine your gender which we know is false and it's the second shakespeare adaptation from this pair of screenwriters that has a character flashing their boobs which it's like get a new trick kirsten and karen um and this movie was also co-written by you and leslie yeah by malvolio the famous spider last problem had a louder voice in the writer's room um no by uh you and leslie although uh jamie you you would probably call him ewan but anyway well that's neither here nor there so yeah another mistake that this movie makes is the cis normative bullshit of your genitals determining your

gender the only point i'll give that because it's just like not necessary and also this movie was listed for containing nudity which it doesn't know either way the only thing the only improvement that makes upon 10 things i hate about you as at least you know sebastian shows his parts and viola shows her parts as opposed to just a titty flash. But I say we do away with it in that context altogether. Exactly. And then David Cross as the headmaster who participates in a number of very funny visual jokes where throughout the movie he is handing out food in the cafeteria. He comes in with a plunger at one point. He's like snipping a shrub.

He's like cleaning the windows. He's a prop guy. He just does all, he's the headmaster, but he's so involved in his school, he does it all. Anyway, very funny. He says, as he's like outing Sebastian as a girl, he says, you know, actually, he's been impersonating his own sister, Viola, for reasons which will become very clear after extensive psychoanalysis. Kind of implying that if you present as a different gender from the one that you were assigned at birth, you need psychoanalysis. Something's wrong with you. Something's wrong with you psychologically.

Right. So bad, bad, bad bad bad bad he does have a good i feel like it was kind of a good moment when he's talking to what's what's the squirrely bad guy's name oh um malcolm yeah when malcolm is talking to the headmaster and viola as sebastian passes by talking in normal viola voice about wearing a dress and high heels there is a moment where it could have been where Malcolm is just like that's weird but then the headmaster is just like have you ever tried running away running in heels? I was like well

that was a good opportunity to not be a dick and he wasn't. Right. Yeah. And also what Viola is saying on the phone is great. Yeah. Feminist icon says heels were invented by men to make women's butts look smaller and to make it harder for them to run away,

which is something I've been saying for decades. So thank you for letting me be seen. Look at your stiletto heels. Wow. I played soccer in them today. And you were not slowed at all. Um, that's right.

And you won and the reason she's talking about heels is because of the debutante ball and i have a lot to say about this okay so in the movie viola's mom wants her to be a debutante wants her to be a lot more feminine isn't thrilled with the whole soccer playing thing, reminiscent of Keira Knightley's mom's character in Bend It Like Beckham, where she's like, oh, like soccer's gross and you should wear dresses. So for most of the movie, Viola rejects the idea of needing to present as super feminine. And that ranges from wearing sporty, pretty gender neutral clothing, not wanting to be a debutante in these like frilly gowns. And then that ranges all the way to literally dressing as a boy.

So I think it's cool that she is like, she spends the entire movie rejecting these sort of gender norms. That is to say, if you want to present that way, that's fine. And that's anyone's choice. But society's expectation has long been that the more feminine a woman presents, the better, which is unfair and unrealistic and not great. But at the end of the movie, after Viola has spent all this time, you know, rejecting these norms of needing to present as super feminine. Then she goes to the debutante ball. She wears the gown. She presents as super feminine. And the idea of women expecting to present as feminine, men expecting to present as masculine,

there being no room for anyone to fall anywhere else on the spectrum. It would have been better if she no-showed the ball. Yeah, because those rigid gender norms that have been challenged throughout the movie go back to being intact. I feel like a lot of the statements that are made about gender throughout the movie feel like they're almost kind of undone

by this ballroom scene. I mean, not really, but it's just like, why did this movie have to end with this ball? My theory is that the trope that I do not like of like high school movies, always ending in prom or like a spring formal. It doesn't make sense for this movie to end in prom because it happens two weeks into the fall school year. Also, we were just at the big game. We had the high school. We had the big moment yeah yeah so for them there to be another basically prom event at the end of the movie just feels unneeded and it like reverts back to all these like weird rigid gender norms that the idea of like being a debutante really instills so i didn't like that

no uh i had something i wanted to discuss really quickly about the reception this movie received when it was originally released this movie has a 43 percent on rotten tomatoes i'm not surprised which right but not because as we have been discussing it is a well-written movie there's not that I mean considering the fact that it's a successful well-done Shakespeare adaptation which is so hard to do yeah and the characters are explored and well realized for the most part with this this movie, it didn't fare very well. And this goes back to something that we recently found out. The Annenberg Inclusion Initiative did a study on film criticism. And this year, and I can't imagine how much worse this issue was in

2006, of almost 60,000 movie reviews written between 2015 and 2017, 79% were written by men, 21% were written by women. So in film criticism, there is a massive gap in who decides what's good, and that informs what people see a lot of the time. And in 2006, I have to assume this issue was even worse. Yeah. And that is telling in the way that this movie was reviewed. There was one that stuck out to me as particularly annoying. Where is it?

It was from not Ebert. What's his name? Roper. Roper. But a lot of the criticism of this movie was focused on that Amanda Bynes did not play a man convincingly, which betrays far more about the writer than the movie, because that the Man manages to alienate the parents of the younger ones with tampon and gender jokes. Richard Roper, mere words cannot convey how awful Bynes is at playing a girl, playing a boy. Wrong. And this movie was financially successful, had a budget of $20 million, made $57 million at the box office. But you have to think if it were better reviewed or reviewed by a more diverse pool of people that the reception of it would have been quite different and it wouldn't have a 44% on Rotten Tomatoes. That's so much lower than it deserves.

I know. It's 100%. I know. Yeah. 100 percent. And think about that. I mean, but like also think about the movies that we've done. And I mean, for example, Devil's Advocate. Let's see what Love Actually has on Rotten Tomatoes, bordering on hateful towards gender and gender roles that are considered classics versus this movie that for the most part performs very well across the board and was sort of at the time, not quite panned, but not received very well. Yeah, yeah, that's so upsetting. So this would be a reminder to our listeners that if you're reading a review of a movie that deals with issues like this, or, for instance, if you're reading a white writer reviewing a movie with a diverse cast and directed by someone other than someone exactly like them, take that criticism with a grain of salt because they may not actually know what they are talking about. True.

Yes. I wanted to talk a little bit about Eunice. She is the Sammy guest. Eunice is great. I think when she moonwalks into the frame. She's been counting her steps. That was her choice. Like, a lot of, I read, David Cross improvised a lot of his stuff.

Amanda Bynes also improvised a lot. And then Eunice did, too. Eunice? Who is the actress who plays Eunice? I don't know her name, but she has some of the best lines. She's the most famous person in the whole world. An actress named Emily Perkins, who has since been... Oh, she's the receptionist in Juno?

Oh. The one who's like... Whoa. We have condom flavors. Whoa. And that is pretty much... Well, she's great in this movie. So the thing I want to say about her is that she's also 30 in this movie. She's 30. Yes.

Well, the thing I want to say about her is that this movie and so many movies take a character who is not conventionally attractive by western beauty standards and sometimes it's something as simple as she's wearing glasses in this case she's got glasses and braces and some head gear but the movie will like turn her into a punching bag basically it's like look at this disgusting woman just like makes a joke out of the whole thing when in reality we should be critical of her for being 30 and in high school. Also, Channing Tatum is 26. So, you know.

Oh, shit. Yeah. But yeah, I don't like that because pretty much everyone else in this movie is conventionally attractive. So to take like the one character who the movie has made to seem not as conventionally attractive. It's just lazy. the one character who the movie has made to seem not as conventionally attractive and then put her in scenarios where like she's on a date with someone or you know like Channing Tatum has to talk to her it's always like oh I can't believe I'm stuck talking to this you know super lazy I think this falls into the same bucket of lazy writing that like Liz Lemon would fall into. Of like, here's a woman who,

if you took this weird prop off of her, would look completely conventionally attractive, but we're just gonna have everyone in the movie shit on her and call her not hot to distract from the fact that that is not actually the case. And it seems like a more egregious version of the Liz Lemon issue. Of like, down to the like, I like cheese. egregious version of like the Liz Lemon issue of like down to the like I like cheese.

I'm like, shut up. Like, fuck off. Anyways. That's a funny line, though. Almost more than any other animal byproduct. I just like that. I laughed. It's so good.

And then I'm like, what if Channing Tatum is like, tell me more instead of being all check please. Right. Yeah. So I didn't care for that. That happens a lot. I feel like that happens with like Awkwafina's character, her brother in Crazy Rich Asians where like he's not as conventionally. Sorry. He is not as conventionally attractive. So he's like the weirdo, creepo guy.

I hate these tropes. It's a microaggression. Yeah. And movies need to stop doing that. Yeah. But also, I mean, everything Eunice does, I'm on board for. It's just the way the movie treats her. Exactly.

That is not fair. Right, right, right. Exactly. There's a weird moment. I don't have any particular view of it. But at the end, it's almost like they accidentally did a little parent trap where the parents are, you know, it's clear they've been divorced for a while. That seems to be why no one notices that their teenage daughter hasn't gone to school for two weeks but at the end viola's like well why don't we all discuss this issue over dinner tomorrow all four of us and the parents are and the parents are like yeah can i have your number what's your

email address it was like it's literally quade and richards Richardson over here. It's unbelievable. It's true. A couple of fun little things I wanted to mention. Channing Tatum is wearing a Ducati jacket for part of the movie. He is, yeah. He's a bad boy for life. He's a bad boy. He's not like the others. If anyone out there is keeping track of my name anagrams,

which you might be familiar with if you've listened to a few recent episodes that I guested on of the Daily Zeitgeist. I'm Latin dancer UTI. I am a cat turd in line. Caitlin Durante also anagrams to internal Ducati. Whoa. Whoa, that's a good one. Yes. So watch out. internal Ducati. Whoa. That's a good one. So watch out.

I have one more observation about parents that I should have said while you were talking about the debutante ball but then I didn't. Because I'm flawed too. But I think that that was yet another missed opportunity that this movie has to have some sort of and this is something

and I'm only thinking of this because it happens in another soccer movie very effectively Bend It Like Beckham where Keira Knightley's mom in Bend It Like Beckham and Amanda Bynes's mom and she's the man are very similar type characters where they want to force a very traditional idea of femininity onto their daughter in Bend It Likeham, they have a dialogue about it, and there's conversations had between the mother and the daughter. That doesn't really happen in this movie. Granted, there's a lot of stuff going on. I don't know if we necessarily have time for it.

Sure. But for instance, in lieu of Viola going through with the debutante ball. Why is there not a conversation between her and her mother that could probably be pretty productive about why she is not interested in doing it? There is a very short conversation early on where her mom's trying to get her to agree to this debutante ball thing, and Viola says, like, I have no interest in being a debutante.

Like I think they're archaic. So could it have been spoken about more? But then she ends up appeasing her and doing it anyways. So that felt like kind of unresolved. Yeah, that's one of my big problems with the ball scene. Oh, one last thing I wanted to talk about is the Paul character being. Oh, come on, Paul. Come on, Paul.

Yeah, Paul. Being what I interpreted to be queer coded. Well, yeah, at the end, he's with not Toby, the other one. Andrew. And he's like kind of like grooming him a little bit, which is like, okay. Yeah, there's like a very a quick glimpse and then before that he's sort of like the harvey firestein character from mrs doubtfire where he like does the whole makeover of viola and the queer coding in this movie isn't as horribly done

and egregious as it is in some movies but um but But queer-coded character equals makeover is kind of like a fairly standard lazy writing. Yeah, it's very tropey. Yeah, they could have, again, another thing that could have been subverted, but instead was like, you know, doubled down on. Paul does deliver my favorite line of the movie. What's that?

Hit it. And he goes, be a good boy, and then Loyola has to walk off. I got goosebumps. I get goosebumps every time. It's like, oh, that's nice. You can move laying along. I mean, all of Viola's friends, in spite of their kind of shoddy writing, are good friends.

Yeah, very supportive. And supportive friends. And when they're blocking, we didn't really get to Monique. But she's so all over the place that I don't even know what we can say. Well, that is an example to me of a like female rivalry in a movie that there's no groundwork laid for why that would be. So they hate each other and it's not totally clear why. I mean, it's like Viola's like, oh, I don't like her because she's dating my brother and well monique is pretty mean but i i feel like that's such an underthought character i don't even want to give the writers credit for thinking about it this hard yeah but there is like sort of a tendency in some movies

for a female character like monique who when, when you think about it, you know, her boyfriend keeps disappearing and not telling her where he's going. He's constantly bailing on her. It makes sense she would feel insecure and neglected in this relationship because she is neglected in this relationship. How that translates to a dislike of Viola isn't clear to me. But I didn't love that the movie treated her genuinely being neglected in a relationship as like, what a bitch. She's so needy. She won't stop. She's psycho.

Exactly. Right. I mean, I think the story would like for you to feel that way about her, but it's just a total misfire of like, yeah, it's like a combination of the female rivalry trope and just like demonizing a woman having needs yeah that i didn't like and there is that like girl fight scene that happens in the bathroom of like the debutante training that is a gnarly fight but then i was like oh like why do we need to see that but then there's also like a boy fight at the carnival so i'm like okay at least there's like a balance struck. I did love the boy fight.

This is a lovely children's carnival. God damn it. We should watch the movie together again, just so you can. I want to watch this movie with you. Much like yesterday night. Oh, I glitter the entire time. It's so fun. One last thing I want to say is that viola as sebastian in biology class

is like dissecting some sort of animal and faints because women be fainting but olivia didn't that's true yeah olivia seems to do have done like most of the work women stem viola sebastian she's a woman in stem sort of she's a nice girl viola sebastian like said that in the beginning once they like paired up and in class viola was like all right you know what this stuff i can't really do it and olivia's just like i love you oh yeah she's like you're so sensitive take me now sensitive boy she unistim then take me now, sensitive boy. She unistimed him. Take me now, sensitive boy. Oh, one more final shout out to Channing Tatum's, I'm sorry, I'm a wine mom again. Channing Tatum's impeccable comedic timing when he's on the flip phone and he bonks his big old meat head on the thing and and he's like oh hello like it's

just it's such a good scene oh i loved it he's a comedic genius he's so funny i don't know i need to call my mom about this does anyone else have any other thoughts about She's the Man? You know, overall, mistakes were made, but a modern classic. So let's talk about whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. It does. There are scenes in the very beginning whenever Viola is talking to her teammates,

Kia and Yvonne, about having their team been cut. They're talking about where she wants to play soccer in college. She and her motheronne about like having their team been cut they're talking about like where she wants to play soccer in college she and her mother talk about the debutante ball oh they do mention Justin in that they do mention yeah later in that scene but there's a few lines why don't you date a mom and she's like I couldn't that reminded me of my mom horny moms representing horny so yeah there's quite a few conversations that pass the Bechdel test between several different combinations of characters. So that's cool. Good job.

It's like when first time listeners of this podcast think that that's what the whole podcast is about. They're like, it's the whole time. Are we trying to, what, figure out what figure out like wait but does it it's like getting it for a whole hour it's pretty clear that uh it's not too hard to figure out totally anyways uh shall we rate the movie yes on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal and representation of women. I'm going to give this movie, I think, a three. I'm docking off a couple nipples for all the mistakes it makes, which is the casual homophobia that for the most part goes unchallenged for some of the moments of misogyny that go unchallenged,

most notably the scene where in order for Viola as Sebastian to be accepted by her peers, she has to objectify women and seem like this awesome stud to be cool and to be the man the cis normative idea that your genitals determine your gender identity things like that this is also as most movies we come across a very white movie the few characters who are people of color are for the most part sidelined but just the story of a woman seeking to prove that she is equal to her sort of male peers and then succeeding in though there is like a romantic subplot with Duke the main story still is largely like proving that she's a capable soccer player whereas in the original play it seemed like it was mostly just entirely about the romance so yeah I like that it deviates from that quite a bit um So yeah, I think three nipples. And I'm going to give one to the scene in the gym where Channing Tatum is the best comedian ever to have lived.

One nipple for that whole scene. Yes, exactly. And then my other two nipples I'm going to give to Amanda Bynes for being a comedic powerhouse in this movie for uh you know we didn't talk about this but her sort of fall is very upsetting yeah i love her she's great and this is a fun movie not without its flaws but i really enjoy this movie three nipples i'm also going to give it three or actually i'm gonna give three and a half nipples for for all the reasons you stated caitlin um it is a very white movie there are a lot of blind spots in terms of homophobic jokes etc but by and large i think that it's almost tricky to rate on its treatment of women because we spend most of this movie with men. However, I don't necessarily think that that is a bad thing. I think that that works and still

accomplishes quite a bit where it's mostly we are seeing Viola as Sebastian among other men. And it's kind of an examination with varying degrees of success as we've discussed of looking at masculinity and how do men interact and you know like what are the shades of gray there and again there are some hits and there are some misses but ultimately it does well certainly better than most teen movies of this era it's a very effective adaptation where the original play does not look upon women that kindly, where that was somehow made into a movie that makes women part of the narrative and very capable. And I do wish that there were other women in this movie included in a more meaningful way, I think it would have been really awesome to give Viola someone to talk to more often so that she could be reflecting on this experience in real time.

I think there could have been a lot of cool things to get out of that. But for the most part, the fact that we spend most of this movie with men, unlike most movies where we're with men almost all of the time, is done with a lot of intent and for 2006 is a handled generally pretty thoughtfully however i wish we were with women for more of this movie yeah and and also the mom character in general kind of missed for me there's a lot of cartoony characters in this but i just like because the whole time i was thinking of the other hyper traditionally feminine mother character in a soccer movie um i just think that that was a big missed opportunity you know maybe if we there

was a portion of this movie that had to do with why the fuck isn't Viola at school? That could be a conversation between Viola and her mother. There are definitely, as with most movies, this movie is littered with missed opportunities. But the ones it capitalizes on generally, I think, do pretty well. So three and a half nippies from me. I'm going to give two of them to Amanda Bynes. Come back, we need you. I'm going to give, I guess I'll give uh i have to give one to channing tatum because you know i mean you wouldn't think but

he's so funny and um and then i will give my final half nipple to uh my queer king malvolio sure sure of course do spiders have nipples uh as a nipple expert over here um i would say no okay they don't anyways what if each of their legs has a long ass nipple spiders are just basically cats who walk on their nipples i'm sorry that was the worst thing i've ever said. Sammy. Oh, hi. I would say I think even though it is my favorite movie of all time, and I did say that it was flawless, I think that'll give it probably 3.5 nips. Okay.

The thing with gender swap movies is that it really does result in focusing on leaning into gender norms, which, you know, those aren't my bag, baby. So, I mean, but you have to do it for the story, whatever. But yeah, three and a half, I think. One to Eunice. Sure. One to Amanda Bynes' mugging.

One to Amanda Bynes' inconsistent accent, boy accent. Oh, yeah. Southern sometimes. Southern. And then like with all of her like, gee, money. It's like. I love it. If you guys ever want to know what I'm like in my daily life, I am Viola as Sebastian.

Without the massage, any problem. The scene where the one debutante lady is like, Viola, chew like you have a secret. And then she just goes. I chew like that all the time because of that scene whenever yeah how many nipples did i give out three and a half oh you got a half or a half to dinklage all right yeah for not being a jerk discriminate based on gender well sammy thank you so much for being here with us. Thank you for inviting me to this. Any time.

Where can people find you online? Is there anything you'd like to plug? Follow me on Instagram at ityoursam, underscores in between those words. So I-T underscore Y-O-U-R underscore S-A-M. Twitter, Sammy Junio, S-A-M-E-E-J-U-N-I-O. If you're local to Los Angeles Or coming to visit See a historical roast Or fictional roast Show at Dynasty Typewriter

Or the Comedy Store Jamie and Caitlin Were both on And killed it Oh so good It's so good to see them Also I do have A podcast

Unreleased But it will come out Called Non-Binary Code Which is Me going through The non-binary journey and inviting guests to talk about their experience, which in what I call living blurry.

Nice. Thanks. Love it. So be on the lookout for Non-Binary Code. And you can follow us at Bechtelcast on social media. You can go to our website, bechtelcast.com, and there you can find episodes. You can go to our website, Bechtelcast.com, and there you can find episodes. You can find our merch store.

We've got all kinds of apparel and mugs. Speaking of Amanda Vine mugging, you can drink out of a cat fax with Caitlyn mug or whatever. Oh, speaking of which, Alfred Molina could have played Malvolio. Malvolio the spider.

I mean, he's a chameleon. He could play anything. It's true. Yeah. Get your merch. Rate and review us on iTunes. That will help us a lot, especially if you give us a five nip rating. And join our Patreon, aka Matreon, where we do two bonus episodes every single month.

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Yeah, we's the man. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Stereo Podcast today. We're talking sports, politics, pop culture, entertainment, and anything

that catches my attention. Listen to the I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.