The Bechdel Cast - Shrek Forever After

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Jamie and Caitlin are kicking off 2024 with a very *Shrekian* episode on Shrek Forever After! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter. We're doing live shows in early February in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego! Grab tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcast!  Also, check out Caitlin's upcoming screenwriting classes at caitlindurante.com/classes, and buy Jamie's books, Raw Dog -- https://read.macmillan.com/lp/raw-dog-by-jamie-loftus/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello and welcome to the Shrek-del cast. Whoa, it's 2024, baby. Nothing matters anymore. And we're rebranding. Women, it's over. Intersectionality, done. It's all about shreks now it's all about shrek hates being a father after one week it's so hard it stinks we don't like it oh raising my own children i feel fucking sick in my head what would the shrektle test be oh i think this okay i was gonna make an argument that this movie really passes the shrektle test because it's like how many shreks

are talking to each other about being shrek in this movie like there's a whole sequence where it's just like shreks are talking to shreks are talking to shreks and they're talking about liberating shreks i'm like this is like this is the shrektel test all it was like it's almost like you know when you see a scene in a marvel movie that it's like oh someone told kevin feige about the bechdel test and now he's like well just have something uh-huh have something and it feels forced yes it was like that but with like 400 shreks i there's a john ham shrek there's a unbelievable craig robinson shrek there is a craig robinson shrek there's a kristen shaw shrek no christian or no witch christian shaw is a witch but there is a everyone in this movie is a jane lynch shrek there is a jane lynch shrek and if that's not 2010

tell me what is i mean seriously the witches have green skin you think there would be solidarity among the witches and the shreks and i have some thoughts on that and i have some thoughts on that and also like the randomest man in the world walt dorn who who no offense to walt dorn but who are you it's baffling anyways he's truly some guy he like works in animation and they're like you're fun and it's like he i mean whatever whatever this is a main feed welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jamie loftis my name is caitlin dorante and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens before we even get into more details about that though introspectional what introspectional excuse me i i keep trying to say introspectionalial feminist lens do you see where i was going i did see it

and i loved it thank you oh thank you before we talk any more about intersectionality yep um i would love to plug the tour that we have coming up yes yes yes yes so you might have already heard listeners that jamie and i are going on tour it's true and it's for the most part a tour where we are covering the movie barbie so get excited we are doing shows in san francisco for sf sketch fest on february 1st then we're scooting over to sac. We're doing a show on Barbie that unfortunately is already sold out. But we are doing a second show on The Wolf of Wall Street

because we were like, we got to double up on Margot Robbie movies. Which is such a confusing thing to pair with Barbie that it is not yet sold out and you could still get tickets to it. Yeah, well, we were like, should we do Oppenheimer?

And then we were unanimously like, no, we should not. No, thank you. So we're doing Wolf of Wall Street instead. There are still tickets available to that show in Sacramento on February 2nd. On February 3rd, we will be in Dallas covering Barbie. Still tickets to that show available. On February 5th, We will be in Austin. And then we're scooting back to California to do a show in San Diego on February 10th. And all of those shows are also us covering

Barbie. And we're going to have a blast. We have so much fun during the live shows. We do extra things. We do slideshows. We do games. games we wear fun outfits there's lots of goofs we usually eat on stage you know things like that there's always a meet and greet afterwards there's tour exclusive merch it's a blast and actually i feel like to transition back to the main episode that today will have a similar vibe because they tend to be kind of chaotic and fun we like to cover fun movies live and we also love to cover fun but also socially impactful movies to start the year but if you would like to get tickets to that that tour which you should yes you can go to the link in the bio or go to link tree our link tree which is l-i-n-k-t-r dot e-e slash Bechtelcast. Pain in the ass.

Well worth it. And we'll see you at the show. Yeah. But now back to Shrek. Back to the Shrek-telcast. Yeah. Okay. So this is, it's interesting. I feel like because our show has been around for so long, we're reaching the end of a lot of franchises we've been covering for for many years i mean we fortunately they made a season two of the santa claus's for us to cover with grace this year but you know for a while it seemed like we were we were going to be out right and and we have uh we still have the puss in boots spinoffs but this is the final canonical Shrek movie we have not covered on the show.

We're covering Shrek forever after. Should we tell people what the Bechdel test is? Well, we already discussed the Shrek-tel test, and I think that covers it. That's true. No, yeah. The show is named after the Bechdel test, although we only ever use it as a jumping off point to initiate larger conversations about representation and intersectionality. Ain't it the truth.

And it is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel along with her pal Liz Wallace. And so it's often called the Bechdel-Wallace test. It was a test that first appeared in Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For in the 80s, examining how women rarely speak to each other in movies, and specifically queer women and the representation of them in mainstream cinema. So that was what the test was originally there are many versions of it ours is this do two characters of a marginalized gender have names do they speak to each other and is their conversation about something other than a man and we especially like it if the conversation has some kind of like narrative oomph to it a little hoof a little oomph a little

fun yeah so yes that is the bechdel test not to be confused with the shrektel test which we already we don't even need to talk about it again because we already know that this movie heartily passes heavily but yeah today we are talking about Shrek forever after Shrek 4 many pilots Shrek forever after it was released in 2010 which I know because I went on a date to see this movie in high school thank you very much it made three quarters of a billion dollars which is a really shocking uh statistic for a movie that is both 80 minutes long and horrible not very good i would say this is the weakest install it's the weakest installment for me by a country mile really it's just i find shrek the third to be a lot less enjoyable shrek the third I mean I guess that this one is mercifully

shorter it's it's not even they're both like 81 minutes long yeah wow okay I mean I guess I I the the third one is is with Artie right Artie Pendragon Justin Timberlake is in it for some reason the Justin Timberlake one is pretty bad I still feel like Shrek 4 takes it for me, just because of the internal messaging. I feel like, you know, in Shrek 1, and we've talked about this show how Shrek changed everything. And I'm just quoting James Gunn when I say that. Yeah, yeah, of course. Shrek changed everything. And I think that that is, unfortunately, whether you like it or not,

that is true. Yeah. Shrek changed children's entertainment for a long time. Forever after, even. Forever after. It ain't ogre till it's ogre, to quote the poster of this movie. Is that the tagline of the movie?

Unfortunately. Yes, because this was marketed as the final chapter oh that's right i mean in terms of canonical shrek movies it's the you know it's been 14 years now it's been 14 years and i can still smell the fresh fresh farts wow we have options but in any case i feel like this franchise starts with like fiona who as we've talked about over the years is she a you know perfect feminist character no but i feel like she is like disenfranchised as the movies go on for sure like shrek one fiona is the best fiona and then we just

see her like wife-ified and in shrek forever after which we'll talk about we see an alternate reality Fiona where she is more empowered yes but also there's all I don't know I think that this the Shrek Forever After kind of fucked with my head because we just covered uh because we're recording this in late December we we just did our live show about It's a Wonderful Life. And I'm just bowled over with how many feature films there are about how the world would be a shithole if one man didn't exist. I just don't buy it. Okay, we're on the same wavelength as per usual, because I finished this movie, I was like, wow, that was just the exact same plot as It's a Wonderful Life. However, which movie do I like more? I think that Shrek Forever After is a better movie than It's a Wonderful Life. And I know that

is probably one of the most controversial statements ever made. But I have a master's degree in film and screenwriting, which I would never mention. But it does give me the credibility to say that and you have to believe me and you have to agree with me because of my credentials i respect your opinion thank you so much i respect your opinion this movie stinks this movie is stinky stinky poopoo but but who's gonna argue with a quarter billion or three quarters of a billion dollars i have one last thing to say before we talk about this for over an hour i was thinking about the year 2010 right obama's first term yeah remember that in any case shrek

has a popular you know this is a decade that shrek owns true right yes but things in movies are shifting shrek forever after did it make 756 million dollars it sure did but that is less money than shrek the third made and even less money than shrek 2 made whoa so shrek's on the downturn yeah right and and also four movies in a decade, that's a lot. We've maybe reached peak Shrek saturation. We've also got Kung Fu Panda. We've got other Dreamworks that comes out in 2008, kind of coming for Shrek's crown. That comes up between Shrek the Third and Shrek Forever After. But most pertinently and i feel like you know where i'm going with this oh i already know a very important movie comes out in

2010 and i would say derails shrek's chances at being a powerful franchise for for over a decade okay maybe even a more dominant species i mean do you know what movie i'm talking about obviously you're talking about despicable me starring the minions yes i am i had to check because i also went on a date in high school to see despicable me of course because when i was in high school i was 10 um okay i don't know if you remember this but i went back and re-listened to our shrek the third episode in which you very publicly and openly say that you got fingered during the screening of shrek the third in the theater i wasn't gonna bring that up today because new year new me but you're right i have to no no no don't edit it out i need to own my past you're right and you would be right to say it thank you uh wow i really don't know how to look out for myself whatsoever okay so running the numbers

running the numbers because a little film called despicable me comes out in 2010 let's see how close they came out together okay despicable me starring of course grew in laminions that comes out june 9th okay shrek forever after i think would come out a little earlier yes april may oh in wide release may 21st that's my sister's birthday wow she must have been so thrilled this year. Yes, she was. So they come out within a month of each other. Now, I'm looking at domestic gross because Shrek Forever After, it's got global clout, right?

So it takes Despicable Me over in worldwide gross. But domestic gross, something fascinating happens. Despicable Me edges shrek for americans are done with this guy americans said no we won't give him any more than 238 million 736 787 dollars okay but these new guys the minions they're like wait big green guy more like little little yellow guy because they give the minions 251 million 513 985 dollars just a smidge more uh-huh and i just think that's it there's sort of like a changing of the because shrek changed everything but also you gotta you gotta hang up that leather vest at some point, pal.

It's true. Well, and now we are in Minion era. We are in the Minion era. Shrek era over. Except if you Google, is Shrek 5 happening? I know. The answer is Shrek 5 is slated to come out in 2025 so we are actually not done with shrek and i'm i'm thrilled and i think i honestly as i was watching this movie i was

telling my boyfriend i was like i really think if shrek came back after 15 years and he's been on a fascinating i mean and i'm not going to get into my history with shrek culture i know i've done on the show before but he'd been on this fascinating journey where he's like kind of a big joke but also so beloved that i feel like shrek would be trek 5 would make a billion dollars if it was good if it was good it would make a billion dollars if it was like shrek 2 quality exactly or even i mean i think we can even dream bigger the last oh yeah and also i wanted to say the next highest grossing movie after despicable me was inception i just thought that was funny oh wow i think and also the minions have been you know dominant for

you know over 10 years going on 15 years now so it's time it's time for a challenger to enter the ring certainly not going to be secret life of motherfucking pets i'll tell you that much boo toy story for dogs try harder yeah well anyway okay so you what's your history with shrek 4 i had never seen it before this was the only Shrek installment that I well not including I haven't seen the first Puss in Boots movie I famously love Puss in Boots The Last Wish which came out in late 2022 I finally saw it a couple weeks ago it's great do you think isn't it so good it's really good and it's beautiful it's so well animated yeah visually it's amazing narratively it's amazing thematically it's amazing. Narratively, it's amazing. Thematically,

it's amazing. I love that movie. Anyway, I had never seen Shrek 4 because, yeah, by the time 2010 rolled around, I think I did have Shrek fatigue. And I just wasn't enthusiastic about it anymore. So I didn't see it see it so yeah that's my short history with shrek forever after but you saw it in theaters yes i did and i have nothing else to say cool cool cool um all right well shall we dive deeper into it and do the recap oh i guess i should say i also did not like this movie when it came out in my opinion has not been unfortunately you know time has not healed that wound for me i still don't like it i see for me the ranking goes as follows shrek 2 number one shrek 1 number then shrek three number four wow amazing i'm going two one three four

oh three and four are both so stinky yeah they're they might be tied for last because i kind of forgot about the whole the justin timberlake of it all that was really challenging but i also hate like i just feel like rumple stiltskin should just be Farquaad again why are we why are we doing Rumpelstiltskin can't we just like give Farquaad a magic wand like I feel like it's the same character yeah I'm just fatigued it's annoying should I say what the movie is about let's do it let's take a quick break first and then we'll come back for the recap. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm N.K., and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown.

I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something

wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we

just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like, how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is, and we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts,

incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Alright, here is Shrek or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. All right. Here is Shrek Forever After.

Buckle in. The movie opens on the standard Shrek storybook opening, explaining that Fiona's parents, the king and queen, had locked Fiona in a tower guarded by a dragon. But as time wore on and her curse still hadn't been broken, they had to resort to desperate measures. So we cut to the king and queen approaching Rumpelstiltskin, voiced by, what's his name again?

Walt Dorn. I feel so bad, but I'm like, who is this man? I mean, I guess it's kind of a double standard because you're like, oh, who voices the minions? Pierre Coffin. That's who. But he also is like some random guy in animation, but he's not some random guy in animation anymore.

Unfortunately, Walt Dorn, still some random guy in animation where Pierre Coffin has transcended and is the voice of every minion. Wow. Amazing. Anyways, random guy in animation where pierre coffin has transcended and is the voice of every minion wow amazing anyways random guy don't know okay so they approach rumple stiltskin to see if he can put an end to fiona's curse that turns her into an ogre at night and rumple stiltskin's like yeah i'll do it and in exchange you have to sign away the kingdom of far far away these damn parents are just horrific maybe it's uh maybe it's like commentary or something but they just like in

each and every movie they mismanage and gamble their people's lives away because they're embarrassed of their daughter's physical appearance. It's so bad. Yep. Okay. So they are about to sign away their kingdom in exchange for like Fiona's curse to be lifted. But just then someone comes in to be like, Princess Fiona has been saved, parentheses, by Shrek. And this makes Rumpelstiltskin furious because he wants control over far far away we then cut to shrek in his swamp he and fiona are raising their three ogre babies as promised at the end of shrek

the third can i just say and and let me know if this is out of pocket i hate looking at those damn ogre babies they look like shit they're so oh i hate they make me sick to look they look like adults it's upsetting though i don't like them either the least you can do when you're making animated anything is ensure that you can make a baby version of your character that's cute that's the muppet baby law like it's not that hard i don't think that it would would have been impossible to make a cute shrek baby or a cute the the fact that the donkey dragon babies also look like shit scary that's a slam dunk that's so cute but. But they fuck it up. They big time. Fuck it up. I don't know what,

I don't know what they're doing, but I know what they aren't doing. We see Shrek and Fiona, of course, donkey and puss and boots are also there, but the monotony and repetitiveness of life is really getting to Shrek. Also, people aren't scared of ogres the way they used to be. They're not scared of Shrek anymore, which is abundantly clear when they go too far, far away for Shrek and Fiona's kid's birthday party. There's a lot to be said

about this whole, like, Shrek is fatigued of being a parent while we're led to believe fiona it just comes naturally to her i mean that like we'll talk about that yeah but can i just say the little kid who says do the roar uh-huh i was laughing see i i hated him every time he said it i I was laughing. I hated it. Wow, that was the one laugh this movie got out of me. And then when Shrek roars, he says, I love you, daddy. I was laughing. I think this movie got zero laughs out of me. Every joke falls flat on its face.

The movie sucks ass, but I liked when the kid said, do the roar. I love you, daddy. Yuck. Fair enough. Fair enough. I only have an undergrad, so. Yeah, I mean. I have simple taste.

It's okay. It's okay. So anyway, the party goes horribly wrong. And no one is taking Shrek seriously. And he's like, I wish things would just go back to the way they were when I could do everything I wanted and whenever I wanted. And Fiona is like, OK, ungrateful much? Yeah, you ungrateful piece of shit.

You have every like and then she like lists out everything that's going well with his life. I'm like, damn, I'm jealous of Shrek. He really does have it all. like lists out everything that's going well with his life i'm like damn i'm jealous of shrek he really does have it all he's he's got a lot that you would think he would be grateful for but he's not and so they both storm off in different directions and then who does shrek bump into who had overheard this whole conversation it's rumple stelstiltskin. And he's like... And his big old goose, which... Did you grow up with the story of Rumpelstiltskin?

I don't know what the fuck his whole deal is. I do, yes. I did grow up with that story. I don't remember him having a goose, but I do know the story. All right. I'll take it to Google. Does Rumpelstiltskin.

Oh, I guess he was a character on Once Upon a Time. This is the point where someone in our is like someone hits our Apple podcast reviews are like, Jamie didn't do enough research to even know if Rumpelstiltskin has canonically has a goose. I'm not seeing goose. I'm not seeing goose. I am seeing a page for Fi the goose on wiki shrek oh okay which is so it seems like it's only canon to shrek lore a shrek innovation yeah wow also we did this last time too for shrek the third but it we still haven't said the word shrekian

yet wow i mean give it time i mean yeah it'll come up organically, right? It's true. Okay, so Rumpelstiltskin is like, hey, Shrek, I will make a deal with you that will let you be the ogre that you used to be, you know, like feared. You can do that for a day in exchange for just any other day in your life. So Shrek would just have to like give up a day in exchange for just any other day in your life so shrek would just have to like give up a day from his past and it could be like a day when he was a baby that he wouldn't even remember so he's like sounds like a great deal to me so shrek signs this contract with rumple stiltskin and as soon as he does he is transported to this reality where, sure enough, everyone fears him. And Shrek is loving it at first. But then he goes to his swamp, but it's all dried up

and abandoned. And he's like, what's going on? What's happening here? Then he is attacked and captured by a group of witches. And the next thing Shrek knows, he's in a carriage that's being pulled by Donkey, but Donkey does not recognize him. And this is where you start to realize that this movie and It's a Wonderful Life have basically the same plot. Yep. And it's like, why is this movie coming out in May? I honestly feel like if this movie was just like more transparent about what it's obviously doing, it just released it as like, because there were Shrek Christmas specials. I feel like I'd be less annoyed with it if they just were like, this is like, it's a wonderful Shrek.

You're like, sure, fine. I don't know why it would be less. But it's trying to like pass itself off as, I don't know. I'm just like, just say it's a wonderful Shrek. Or it's a Shrekian life. It's trying to like pass itself off as, I don't know. I just like, just say it's a wonderful Shrek. Or it's a Shrekian life. It's true. And there you go. It's a Shrekian text.

It is. I never think about that. Anyway, Shrek is in this alternate reality where he never met Donkey, where Far Far Away is in shambles and they also imply that if shrek didn't break the stigma against ogres that the ogres would be extremely oppressed like without shrek the ogres are like a severe underclass in society to the point where they have to revolt i'm just like i just don't give shrek that much credit no right i and i think that that's fine you know like he but it's like he's one guy you know he's one unremarkable guy that's kind of his whole thing yeah what right anyways i agree anyway all these

things are different and we'll come to find out more soon. But the witches who are Rumpelstiltskin's minions. Okay. Okay. They're trying. They're trying. I mean, they're trying to be, but. But it's too late. Underwhelming.

It's too late. It's too late. So they take Shrek to Rumpelstiltskin's palace. And he is delighted to see Shrek because he's the one who made this all possible. Because the day that Rumpelstiltskin took from Shrek was the day that he was born, which means Shrek never even existed, which means he never rescued or even met Fiona. It means that when this day comes to an end shrek will cease to exist and he'll like explode into light which i seemed so dramatic the stakes are high yeah i and this is you know spoiler alert for this 80 minute movie this episode will be longer than the movie but i think that it was quite bold you know in a living in 2024 now let's say in a world where

all children's movies are too cowardly to murder their protagonist in the fourth installment I think it's I think it is rather shocking that we do see Shrek fully die uh I mean only for like two minutes but you're still like damn they killed shrek i killed his ass they got his ass loved that yeah so anyway shrek never existing also means that rumple stiltskin was able to seize control of far far away which is why like he wanted this whole thing to happen which is why he made this deal with Shrek, etc. So Rumpelstiltskin finally has what he wants. So Shrek grabs Donkey and they escape from the palace.

Shrek gets Donkey to trust him. And then Donkey tells him about the secret exit clause to the contract that Shrek had signed. And the way to render this contract null and void is for Shrek to have true love's kiss. And then we're like, okay, wait a minute. Exit clause, Santa Claus 3, the escape clause. This is a Christmas movie. I kept writing that down.

I'm like, another Christmasmas thing there's a santa claus in the just why did this movie come out in may yeah not sure anyway so shrek is like okay i have to go find true love's kiss with fiona he realizes that if he never rescued her from the dragon guarded tower she must still be there but when he goes to the tower she's not there so he's like okay well if i didn't save her then who did because he cannot conceive of a world in which fiona could escape the tower on her own well neither could the first shrek movie so i know he's a flop he's okay so shrek and donkey continue their search for fiona and they stumble upon an ogre community they're this resistance group who is fighting against rumple stiltskin and his oppressive regime and their leader is fiona oh and it's a great reveal shot it is yes and really brings

out i'm certain we've talked about this in past episodes really brings out how weak Cameron Diaz's voice acting is because we get this amazing reveal of Fiona and then Cameron Diaz like I love Cameron Diaz but like she's not a very strong voice actor and doesn't improve over time and so you get like this incredibly animated like Fiona's hair is whipping around she's wearing this warrior outfit and then she's like okay guys let's okay everyone time to go into battle you're like i yay i've always thought that cameron diaz was not well cast it's i this role right which is challenging because it's like i don't i it's in that way inadvertently because of how these movies are structured you we're coming down on basically the only woman who's meaningfully in the movie but uh but also we've been we've been shielding her for years i just have to say how i feel no that's fair okay guys let's go into battle you're like oh my god

oh my god anyway so we get this reveal that fiona is the leader of this revolution great and of course she does not know shrek because they have never met in this alternate reality so shrek tries to woo fiona but she's too busy planning an attack on rumple stiltskin and his witches that night. Also, we learn that Puss in Boots is her pet cat, although he's not the, you know, fierce assassin we know him to be anymore. He's a quote-unquote lazy house cat, and we'll talk more about the implications and choices that were made with this character. Anyway, so shrek is trying to win fiona over and so he goes to her and they start this kind of like play fighting thing and they're vibing but still no kiss meanwhile rumple stiltskin wants to find shrek to prevent him from kissing fiona because

he doesn't want this contract to be nullified because it would mean the end of his empire. So he hires a bounty hunter to find Shrek who turns out to be the Pied Piper. And this is when I was like, okay, why would you just have Puss in Boots be the assassin that gets hired? Bring that thing back in. makes more sense and then it's

baffling yeah it would be maybe too similar to the plot of shrek 2 but that's a callback that would make sense where then shrek would have to like you know do something similar to like get puss and boots on his side and right just like why why why is pied piper here like worst i didn't villain minion i've ever seen i didn't especially in a year where we're being introduced to the minions and shrek's bringing who to the tape like no wonder no wonder you were dethroned king um no but i i agree with you i hadn't thought of it that's that's a really smart fix for that too and a far more logical use of puss in boots character because he really is like he's used as a fat shaming psych gag basically and then he kind of like doesn't do anything the whole movie he

literally does nothing to the point where it's like egregious and at one point i left because they're just trying to justify his presence so which is like also you're if you're paying antonio banderas please use him like it's weird either way but there's like at one point where shrek and fiona spoiler alert they have to fall back in love and there's a point where they're like they're vibing and then it just cuts to puss in boots and he's like wow you're like why is he here it doesn't make any sense anyway so the assassin for some reason or the bounty hunter is the pied piper and then when the ogres launch their attack against rumple stilt skin it's actually a trap laid by the pied piper and then he plays his flute and it like forces them to dance and that's how he bounty hunts them question mark exhausting but shrek and fiona managed to get

away so they're like on the run and also he's trying to prove to her that he is her true love and that he knows a bunch of stuff about her, including. Well, he's also like, what if I forcibly kissed you? Would that convince you? He does that many, many times. It's disgusting. But he's like, look, I know all this stuff about you, including your curse where you're human during the day. And he's like like so kiss me and she does basically just to i think get him to

shut up and leave her alone yeah but the kiss doesn't change anything because because why would it she's leading a revolution yeah i just hate that like i mean it's complicated to the extent that you know like without shrek's presence in this world right like the shreks are oppressed that's bad however it's also presented that it's equally bad that fiona is the leader of a revolution which is not bad that's like a like it's it's so weird how fiona is characterized over the years where it's like she's it just feels like antiquated even for the 2000s to be like well she would be much happier if she was just the mother of newborn triplets than if she were the you know like warrior goddess of the shreks right I don't

I feel like we can split the difference there a little or not you know like it's just it's the same kind of like empty feminism that we've seen throughout the entire franchise where like there will be moments where like Fiona gets one little scene where she does something that vaguely seems empowering. But when you actually look at it closely, it's a very hollow gesture

or it has weird implications. The same thing's happening here. The same thing's happening here. The same thing's happening. And she, at this time, does not love Shrek. So when she kisses him, it doesn't break the contract with Rumpelstiltskin. And I thought, because of course I didn't remember what happened in this movie fully because I was busy. Doing what? Pegatition. JK. didn't remember what happened in this movie fully because i was busy doing what uh peg peg a titch okay jk uh uh but like i sort of was like oh far be it for me to think this shrek i

feel like this happens in every shrek movie where it's like they have an opportunity to do something cool and interesting and then they're like nah we're not gonna we're not gonna you're like okay sorry never mind yeah they don't sorry for having any expectations god god sorry for thinking that the franchise could grow oh yeah right anyway so rumple stiltskin desperate to stop shrek and fiona puts out a call basically saying that whoever brings them in Rumpelstiltskin will grant them any wish they desire so Shrek realizes he can use this to his advantage and he turns himself in in exchange for freeing all of the ogres that the Pied Pper had captured except rumple stiltskin refuses to release fiona since she's only half ogre so now she and shrek are captured together and rumple stiltskin unleashes dragon on them but they work together to best the dragon and defeat rumple stilt skin but then shrek dies so abrupt too

yes because it's dawn which means shrek's time is up and he starts to fade away which i kind of forgot was gonna happen yeah yeah and she kisses him but he disappears but but just kidding the kiss worked and this alternate reality vanishes we're transported back to shrek's children's birthday party and shrek is like wow fiona i love you babe i always thought it was me who rescued you from the dragon's keep but really it was you who rescued me the end and then and you're just like and then a smash mouth cover starts weezer playing we that's weezer it's weezer covering smash mouth covering the monkeys and at this point we're like we got to retire shrek for 15 years he's got to go in the vault i think that they did talk about inception a song within a song within a song all right let's take a break uh we'll be right back

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That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?

There absolutely is. And we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to part-time genius listen to part-time genius on the iheart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts all right and we're back yeah um as with all things shrekian uh this movie did suck but i do think that there is a fair amount to talk about especially in regards to i just like if in shrek 5 we could like get an arc for fiona that's like we're saying on par with shrek 2 and

let's say better because we have the benefit of 15 years right but shrek 4 sucks for fiona it's so weird because it and speaking to the empty feminism which i feel like is yeah it's very very prevalent and again like best done in the earlier installments not the later ones which is depressing but like the the message of this movie for women is bad. But we see a lot of cool stuff, which is weird. I feel like there is like a sort of game of 4D chess being played because you get to see Fiona in a position of power where she's respected and hyper-competent. And I think the sequences where she's fighting and like leading is really cool there is sort of i know that there's jane lynch's character is a woman coded shrek but

outside of that it appears that it's kind of a smurfette situation like most of the shreks overwhelmingly male which is minion coded i will say true but obviously not as effective if john ham john ham is actually in minions one so he's kind of double dipping when you think about it and also wait is he yeah he plays sandra bullock's groovy husband in minions and he's kind of awesome minions one not despicable me one not despicable me we're talking this spinoff franchise i see the real money maker i don't think i've seen minions one all the way through oh my gosh we should watch it on christmas okay we should cover it on the podcast i would love to i mean i've seen it so many times and not to mention rise of group i mean i mean i saw that one in theaters oh it and it's so cute i love it yeah 2024 it's a

minions year thank god 2023 we were we were panting starving like what was gonna happen to us thankfully we're back but um but yeah i mean and good for john ham for sensing which way the wind was blowing but in any case I don't know like Fiona is in a position of huge power we find out that she has liberated herself from the tower which I think is cool and like I because this is all established I almost wished at the end of Shrek 4 instead of Shrek being pulled back to his normal reality, where we've seen Fiona for two movies now be pushed into these traditional roles, which as we say, oh, like, we're not saying that these are bad roles to be in to want to be married or to be a parent, but they're stereotypical roles that are, you know, whatever, you know what we're talking about yeah that's all we see fiona do in these movies anymore and i was really hoping that they went to some like third location where

there could be some like i think that would have been cool where they like went to an alternate reality where fiona could have access to both of these where she could be a warrior because she's always been a really like fighty character since the first movie, she's been a good fighter. And like a world where she could, you know, have both of these. I feel like that wouldn't be out of the question in this world, but instead Shrek is just sent back

to the world where we've seen Fiona turned into a very like unchallenging wife and mother character and shrek is just like wow i'm so grateful that you're like this and you're like right no yeah no this movie can't imagine a world and suggest that like if you are you know a warrior and the leader of a revolution you would not also be a parent like the it's like you're one or the other and if you are a parent then you have to live this like hyper domesticated life and that goes for fiona and shrek and that's why he tries to like escape so like i said i went back and listened to our shrek the third episode and a big criticism. Thank you.

A big criticism we had about that movie was that it reinforces a gendered trope of like men being very reluctant to become parents and women being hyper enthusiastic about becoming a parent and this movie we already kind of touched on this but it does something similar in the sense that we see shrek growing increasingly bored frustrated disillusioned with domestic life of like you know taking care of his three babies he's tired of the monotony of it but we do not see fiona this way, which reinforces a similar gendered trope of like, oh, well, women don't mind doing the same domestic tasks over and over. Women don't mind the monotony that might accompany that. She's happily doing it and she's never getting frustrated or bored because women just inherently love that kind of work. But men, well, of course, they're going to get bored and yearn for something more exciting. They're going to yearn for their

days when they were a bachelor and they weren't, you know, like weighed down by this ball and chain. And of course, their masculinity will feel threatened now that they have to stay at home and do domestic tasks and take care of a family which is like exacerbated by the fact that the movie doesn't even bother to like add the tropey layer to make it seem like shrek has a job like he does it he does it they're both stay-at-home parents but like and also it's like i think that these are easy as and i know that we've talked about this in others trek installments there's easy small fixes that allow fiona to participate more fully in the plot if they're both burned out as new parents that totally changes the dynamic of

that because you're like yeah parents of newborn triplets that are being like surveilled by the far far away paparazzi or whatever. That would be exhausting. Yeah. For both of them. But she is shielded by mother powers. That like don't just add on these tropes. But like fundamentally exclude her from the plot. Like there's maybe.

I mean it would still suck. Because it's like Shrek 4. But like there's a version of this where they could go through this journey together and see the alternate version of reality of like what if both of them didn't exist and if Fiona doesn't exist honestly I'm more inclined to believe that ogres would be more oppressed versus Shrek because she is an ogre who is a princess like that actually makes like yeah talking it out now that makes a lot more sense that like fiona has far more to do with like the you know ogres are scary

stigma being removed from that community than shrek does because she came out as an ogre and everyone still loved her so i mean hello end of shrek one it was like an earth-shattering moment it changed the world yeah right there's that so there's a bunch of different things going on with shrek one he's frustrated with the monotony of domestic life he's also ungrateful, you know, despite having, as Fiona points out, three beautiful children, a wife, a wife who loves him, friends who adore him. He's just acting very ungrateful and unappreciative of it. And then on top of that, he doesn't like that people are no longer afraid of him. And he wants to go back to the good old days where people were afraid

of ogres when the world made sense and i'm like okay maga vibes yikes maga maga before maga uh yeah i mean it's it's super weird like i don't know in in the shrek world i'll let that slide where it's like okay he misses when he was a scary oak but I feel like that's just telegraphing like I miss my bachelor days like you were saying earlier but it's also like let Fiona in on that that's what I'm saying yeah he doesn't bother to openly communicate any of these frustrations or these feelings with Fiona he doesn't say anything like hey I've been overwhelmed I've been frustrated here are my needs that aren't being met like can we work on this together to like try to figure out

a solution and also hey Fiona how are you feeling is any of this getting to you like they don't have any conversation like that and Shrek is like famously bad at being interrelated but it's like why can't we just let his character grow a little because it gets exhausting and you would I mean it's been nine years Shrek and and again to come to Fiona's defense here like it makes far more sense for her to be like shaken by this shift because she has you know I forget how much time has canonically passed since shrek one but like she has gone through far more big changes in her life in the last several shrek years than shrek she was still she's still got tower ptsd she and then she's like coming out as an ogre which is a huge deal in this world right the whole shrek two of it all like she is married now she's living in a swamp

she's had three kids like there it again her life has changed more and unfortunate not to be like i feel like i'm starting to sound like a royalist but like her just because of who she is unfortunately she's like prince she i'll say it she's the princess dia far far away she's the people's princess and i feel like it's disrespectful for shrek prince charles over here not exact not exact an exact one-to-one but he's a flop he's not the most interesting character it's like disrespectful to even have fiona voiced by cameron diaz i mean but it's too late it's 23 years too late to fix that so let's just give her something let's give her something and the kids look like shit come on why did we know that these animators can make something look cute because uh puss in boots

yeah with his big eyes yeah so i don't know yeah it felt very yeah like it something i i i mean i guess you can't like overestimate the amount of cynicism that goes into a franchise like this except for despicable me which is you know pure they would never do anything for merchandise merchandising purposes holding my vampire minion who watches me while i create content okay uh but but seriously you guys uh no i i feel like they they it's almost like advantageous for them to have these shots and sequences of fiona as a warrior because then they can put it in the trailer and be like a whole new fiona but then the status quo is always re-established as it is with fiona time and time again and then also i mean all those yucky things

that we touched on during the recap where shrek is so convinced that like all he has to do is give her a kiss he doesn't have to grow as a person which he I would say arguably doesn't in this movie really at all right okay well I guess he learns to be grateful for his wife but like does he I don't know see that's what I was trying to figure out so instead of him you, trying to have an open and honest conversation about his feelings with Fiona, instead, he storms off and then makes a deal with the first sleazy guy he finds, which ends up having these dire consequences. So the rest of the plot is him having to like, fix this situation. And the lesson he ends up, quote unquote, learning is oh I didn't know what I had until it was gone and I should learn to appreciate the love I share with my family and friends and sure that's a valid

lesson to learn but I'm trying to like I guess I just have mixed feelings about stories like this, where a man has to learn emotional intelligence, or a man, you know, has to have this emotional redemption arc, because on one hand, I'm very for men learning and growing emotionally. But sure, women are rarely given arcs like this in stories, because women are expected to already have this emotional intelligence because of a, you know, gendered expectation that yeah they have to learn these things and they kind of barely learn them and it takes this whole epic saga for them to figure these things out and then right does he even learn it because at the end he doesn't apologize to fiona when he's like back at the party he doesn't like say wow i've been acting horribly uh he just says like it was actually you who rescued me which is i feel like what people say to like the pets that

they adopt yes yes i was like he's talking to her like she's a damn dog like oh my god yeah and then yeah he doesn't apologize and say like hey sorry for being an ungrateful little shit he's just like yeah you rescued me and i just feel like it's very a very like oversimplified version it's a freaking mess it's a freaking mess it's a disaster it's a catastrophe it stinks it's it's gotta go like right and then with fiona like okay yes this is an alternate reality where shrek never saved her so she saved herself from the dragon guarded tower which again is like something that the movie shrek one couldn't even conceive of and shocking why don't we get a flashback of like her saving herself showing how she did that maybe it informs why she becomes such an effective leader of a revolution you know

there's like again it's just like this empty well of course she's the leader now why well you don't have to know about that it just happened it just glosses over everything it stinks it stinks yeah i mean it i totally agree where it's like the the things that this movie makes narrative space for acting as if it only has 80 minutes to exist or it'll die. Like it's, yeah. And this, and I know we've talked about this before, but I was reminded of it again in this installment of Shrek that Fiona and Dragon, that is the dragon that guarded her tower for over a decade.

And why do these two characters not have a relationship at all like it could even be contentious it would make sense right but it's so weird like because they introduce dragon at in the alternate reality at the end but it's only so that donkey and dragon can fall in love again but the way that it's like these are the two characters of the four of the two married couples fiona and dragon have known each other for the longest but they have no relationship they act like oh our husbands are friends so i guess we hang out i'm like this dragon was going to kill you for 10 years like how do you have no feelings on like and i think that that could also it would it feels very shrekian there it is it feels very shrekian to put two characters that were like at severe odds

they'd be like oh we get martinis now we hang out blah blah blah like whatever it is establish some sort of relationship like why i don't know i feel like the franchise thinks so little of the two women. And also Dragon can't talk. Great. But the two women who you see most frequently, which are Fiona and Dragon, they have the longest relationship and they're like, well, no one cares. Well, not true. Me care. Also, why can't Dragon?

I mean, basically every other animal. Why can't Dragon talk? We got Puss in Boots. He's talking. We got the three little pigs. They're always talking. We got the wolf. The wolf is talking.

We got a sentient gingerbread man who gets eaten because of the thing we were hinting at as far as like Puss in Boots. He's now a fat character. And the movie takes every opportunity to make very like fat, shamey jokes. Which is very in step with what the franchise has always done, as well as the no homo, like vampire. Oh, yeah. Kissy kissy joke. Like it's all just like blah.

And you already suggested a far better utility of that character. Of Puss in Boots. character. Of puss and boots. Yeah. Of puss. Puss. There's so many better uses of puss. Here's how you use puss. I have a master's degree and I know how to use puss in this movie.

Mm-hmm. And, well, since you mentioned that, queer phobic vampire thing, that's just like a fleeting moment in a quick scene where the king and queen are riding their carriage through what seems to be coded as like a medieval trailer park. And all of the people there are made to seem like weird and scary. And it's just like this a very obviously like classist like yeah oh if you live in a trailer park you're a freaking weirdo which is weird because like this movie is all over the map with that too because the shreks are presented as an underclass that

are like staging a revolution and are to be rooted for this this like this movie can't even decide how they feel about green like they can't even decide what they feel about green because we also have true the witches as the they work for rumple stiltzkin again i don't know rumple stiltzkin lore please come for me i guess like god i'm so tired but like i don't get i meanelstiltskin lore. Please come for me, I guess. Like, God, I'm so tired. But like, I don't get, I mean, and we've talked extensively on other episodes about a lot of the stereotyping that exists around witches. There's a lot of heavy stereotyping around older women

and also a lot of anti-Semitic tropes that come up in the animation style of witches which i think is not challenged in this movie whatsoever for sure and even outside of that you're just like why do the witches work for rumple stilt skit like it's really i don't know it's a mess i don't know it just, the Shrek writers and director, aka this movie was written by Josh Klausner and Darren Lemke and directed by Mike Mitchell. They just kind of do whatever the hell they want.

It's so funny because when it was like directed by Mike Mitchell, I was like, wow. I love, I love Doughboys so much. Wow, Mitch. Yeah. What a- Different. An even bigger multi-hyphenate than we imagined.

Different Mike Mitchell. But in my mind, Mitch directed Trek Forever After. He also directed all of the other Mike Mitchell movies. Can I rattle them off? Please. My buddy Mitch also directed Sky High, deuce bigelow male gigolo alvin and the chipmunks chipwrecked whoa trolls okay he's killing it lego movie 2 and kung fu panda 4 so yeah if you're a fan of the doughboys guess what there's more where that

came from and it's in kung fu panda 4 Incredible. Do you have anything else you want to talk about? Because I've pretty much come to the end of my notes. Let's see. Let's see. Well, I guess I just wanted to get back to Rumpelstiltskin. I think just even from a writing perspective is a really really weak character like a stinky character that felt like a retread of far quad for i was like could they not get the original voice actor of far quad back like john lithgow sorry i had some respect on his name i just thought like a really weak villain for the third and the fourth also has nothing to do with the rumple stiltzkin narrative which is all about like i will give you whatever you want if you're able to guess my name and if not i'm gonna steal all your babies away from you that's the lore of rumple stiltzkin and then none of that appears except for like him making shady deals i guess the babies technically

disappear i guess yeah it's a no i mean that's me giving it too much credit that's a stretch yeah i just i i think it's weird that this movie ultimately comes down and fiona would be like clearly establishes fiona would be cooler if she hadn't met shrek true I mean that is true like objectively and also taking it like again just there's so many more interesting ways for this movie to go because if we know now in 2010 something that seemed obvious right but like that Fiona eventually would have escaped the tower on her own I think that that should send Shrek into more of a crisis than it does. Like, yeah, I,

I think it's interesting. I had this written down as well, where it's like, if I, I as Shrek saw that Fiona would have, I comma Shrek, not unlike I comma Tanya or I comma Frankenstein. Two of my favorite movies. If I Shrek found out that Fiona would have escaped the tower on her own and become a

revolutionary leader if she had never met me i would be like hold on maybe like i would have the kind of crisis where it's like wow maybe i really don't matter like there's a whole like world i mean and i know that that's complicated by the fact that for some reason without shrek the shreks are uh more marginalized than they would. They seem to be like exploited for like, it seems like they're being used as slaves to rumple stilt skin too, which is a disaster.

He seems to specifically target and capture Shreks and enslave them. I don't understand at all. But this is the first time we're even ever learning about other Shreks in this world. Because aside from Fiona, there are no other ogres until the fourth movie. And then suddenly there's a whole community of them, which begs the question, where have these other Shreks been?

Which is actually a really scary image to see. You're just like, oh, I feel like I'm having a nightmare. It's jarring. Yeah. to see like you're just like oh i feel like i'm having a nightmare it's jarring yeah and i i just honestly i don't think that this franchise is equipped to deal with the topic of slavery i will bravely say that and i don't think that they should have tried i guess like it's that plot point made me very uncomfortable and also to suggest that without shrek there would be many more shreks but they would be enslaved. You're like, I'd hate this.

I hate every second of this. Like this is a really, really brutal tangle to put into this story that they are not able to write themselves out of. It's a disaster. That's bad. But then on the other hand, I did like how the Shreks as a community were characterized, where they were staging a revolution.

They call Shrek, I think John Hamm Shrek calls regular Shrek a comrade in arms. You're like, that's kind of fun. They're like preparing to take down their oppressors. It's kind of like, woohoo, this is cool. And, you know, alternate reality Fiona is very active. She is planning the revolution, right? Craig, I think it's Craig Robinson, Shrek has a there's a whole Shrek community and they're essentially like revolutionaries that are going to topple the overclass. And that Fiona. Not to be confused with the ogre class. The ogre class topples the overclass.

Whoa. And this alternate university, university, sorry, sent to university. This alternate universe implies in a way that is also underexplored that Fiona has abandoned the idea of monarchy.

Like she, in a way that she doesn't in the main franchise, she maintains a relationship with royalty. She maintains her, like, she is like a badass. And not to, I feel like that's overused, but like she's really, really cool in this alter. Cause she like rejects the monarchy. She becomes an underground revolutionary

and uses what she knows about the monarchy she becomes an underground revolutionary and uses what she knows about the monarchy to get the ogres into the palace into like top like it's all really really cool again and then if you like think it through which you're not supposed to right this is like lobotomy brain filmmaking but like that shrek is also totally fine meeting and connecting with this whole community of ogres and just losing that why yeah i don't know shrek once he does learn that like you know what fiona could have done or what she's capable of if he wasn't involved in her life and you would think the thought would cross his mind like wow maybe i've been holding her back so when he does show up again in like shrek prime reality he needs to be like optimist shrek i feel like he needs to be

like hey babe like let me help you see your full potential here like you know like is there anything else you want to be doing with your life like right i don't it's just where at that point like but at this point it's like it's not even clear at the end of the movie if he's ever going to tell her that this happened probably not i would say maybe he's not which is so scary it's like the end of what was that movie we recently covered ruby sparks yes yes like at the end he's like i'm not gonna tell her that i was a freaking creep um you're like this absolutely sucks this stinks it's pee pee it's poopoo truly the last thing i wanted to touch on was something that comes up a few different times throughout the movie is a discussion of fiona being quote only half ogre and then at one point shrek says something like well you're not a real ogre

you know you spent half of your life in a palace. And Fiona, I mean, I don't want to necessarily, you know, judge her for how she responds to this. But it's something that I feel like you could equate with like, a person in the real world having a dual identity in some way. For example, people who are mixed race or people who are the child of immigrants and have two or more cultures that are a part of their identity. Or just, you know, like anyone who's gotten criticized for, you know, not being XYZ enough, you know, when, for example, again, mixed race people are told, oh, you know, you're not black enough or you're not Asian enough or, you know, whatever the case may be, basically being told, like, you're not 100% one thing or the other. So you don't belong in either space. I think that would be an interesting, not that I think the Shrek movies are capable of exploring this any further but it does get brought up any any more than the Harry Potter universe was equipped to explore that

through Hermione's character true I feel like you have a very similar I mean not to bring up Harry Potter but like I think it's a similar plot point brought up in the same era that also kind of like, was always trying to start that, but then never quite, you know, did. Doesn't know how to actually like, have a character deal with this. Shrek says something like really cruel to her. He says, you're not a real ogre. He's saying this to her as she is like an ogre running the ogre revolution like what are you talking about you fucking asshole i just it would again it would have been cool if that could have been explored more thoughtfully and thoroughly and if we saw like how people saying that to her makes Fiona feel

because like this is something that like Fiona would likely struggle with or deal with or you know like have feelings about but we barely see that and and also for her own husband to have such a callous way of speaking with her about it for sure which feels like a step back from what we hear in the first shrek movie where he is like that's part of why she falls for him is because he is accepting of who she is and all parts of who she is but then like they have a couple of kids and he's like you're not a real ogre i mean i think that yeah these i that it does seem like being mixed race is the clear implication that's being made through fiona's character but but you're right like it's i i can

see you know especially in a media property this broad that it could be you know used for viewers to connect who are coming from a lot of different points of marginalization and it just basically says like no shrek says you gotta pick a lane and you're like that doesn't make any fucking sense and it also just like doesn't even make sense with who we know this character to be which is why they had to retire him for 15 years so he could really think about what he said yeah another another big missed opportunity yeah the last thing i wanted to say is between shrek the third and shrek forever after another shrek property came out in 2008 and and it was on Broadway. And it was called Shrek the Musical.

Right. And I am very intimately familiar with this musical. I didn't get to see it on Broadway, unfortunately. But I have seen several local productions of it. I've seen it seven times. Oh, my gosh. And I've also watched it. There's a professional Broadway recording of it that exists on, I don't know where it's currently streaming,

generally with the other Shreks. It is really difficult to watch Broadway great Brian Darcy James, who is a decorated Broadway veteran, play Shrek besides Sutton Foster, another Broadway legend playing Fiona. And you're just like, what am I watching? And how much money must they have been paid? I hope, right?

As well as another, Daniel Breaker plays Donkey. Like John Tartaglia won a Tony for playing Pinocchio. You're just like, this is a nightmare. This is a disaster, right? But I do love it. I think it is. It's an adaptation of Shrek 1 that I think honestly works better than Shrek 1.

I think it has more emotional punch. It gives Shrek, I think. So I just, I was thinking about that because this, I think, opened and closed on Broadway between the third and the fourth movie. But it does add to Shrek lore. I don't know, you know, if we're talking to the Shrek team and we say, is Shrek the musical on Broadway canonical to the Shrek universe? I think they would say, I don't care. But in a world where they did care, we would have a little bit of context for Shrek.

Yeah. That includes, I think, mainly the thrust of it explains why he got mean. It implies that he was thrown out by his parents. Right, I remember this. When he was very young, because that's ogre tradition, is to harden yourself to the world in the ogre-like fashion. You get tossed out by your parents when you're very young, and so that's how you become a hardened ogre.

And again, it's just like just like wow we have this incredible lore going into shrek the fourth and it's like the broadway musical that won tony's somehow by the way it won one uh it won best costume design sorry john tartaglia didn't win a tony for that but you know it won a couple drama desks as well it was nominated for a grammy i'm just saying it got more than it should have i mean certainly it just makes me really sad to think of like an actor as good as brian darcy james having to get into shrek makeup every day for eight shows a week that just seems like a horrible way to have to live I think about that sometimes anyways I just wanted to mention that there was a I think probably my favorite Shrek thing is Shrek the musical because

also the music is like good it's like I I I think so I mean I have a nostalgic attachment to it because I've seen it seven times and like many many things Shrek, you know, started as a joke, became real over time. But like the music is good. I would recommend if you're popping on the soundtrack, Build a Wall is like a Bon Jovi song. It's wild that Shrek is singing and also is pre-Trump. Like, you know, harder to listen to the song Build a Wall. But he means an emotional wall to keep out pain and hurt i see what's another good one um don't let me go is donkey's song when he's trying to be shrek's friend iconic song i

know it's today a great song for fiona oh god it's just all i'll admit it's all good yeah so i would say my review of shrek 4 is watch shrek the musical okay and my review of shrek 4 is watch puss in boots the last wish hell yeah incredible okay so we know that this movie passes the shrektthal test. Yes. But does it pass the Bechdel test? Well, no. Let's start the year 2024 out on a hard and clear no. The witches talk to each other, but it's only about Shrek. And I don't know if we're really given, they're credited with names, but I don't remember learning them canonically. Yeah, they don't address each we're really given, they're credited with names, but I don't remember learning them canonically.

Yeah, they don't address each other by name. No. And yeah, they're talking about Shrek. And Fiona doesn't talk to any other women, does she? She does. She talks to, I think, Jane Lynch Shrek, Gretchen. She talks to Gretchen. Good name. Pretty awesome. But Gretchen. She talks to Gretchen. Good name.

Pretty awesome. But Gretchen, I don't believe responds. She's making a military plan and they're like the dual smurfettes of the town. Also, there is one joke at Gretchen's expense where it's implied in this smurf-like ogre kingdom that everyone has the hots for fiona but she doesn't oh that is one thing that we didn't get to that even in the world where fiona is a revolutionary

leader they she still can't have it all like she has to choose being a war which is which is fundamentally what this movie comes down to you have to choose having a relationship at a family or being a revolutionary leader and never the twain shall meet but they're in a conversation like that i forget what they're like oh you know feel nothing will convince fiona to be in a relationship because blah blah blah blah and gretchen's like it would convince me and everyone's like we're not attracted to you and you're like okay anyways it doesn't pass the bechdel test but what about uh let's get it let's come in hot first nipple scale of the year caitlin get pumped all right zero to five nipples

um okay so on our scale of zero to five nipples where we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional and intersectional yes yes yes lens uh-huh i would say i'm gonna give this a half nipple yeah as much as i enjoy seeing the very, you know, fleeting moments of Fiona as a revolutionary leader, as a warrior, it's surrounded by a bunch of other gender tropey implications and just all the fat phobia around the puss in boots character and at the end of the day this is a story about like a man learning an emotional lesson he's learning to be more emotionally intelligent and grateful but also what does he learn he doesn't learn to communicate any more effectively and open up emotionally to his partner he learns that he needs to be grateful but if you have to like have your entire life stripped away from you to learn that lesson i don't know try harder go to therapy like you need to learn gratitude well it's like and also also just as a Shrek fan, demonstrates, I think, a real, I just realized the sentence I was about to say, demonstrates a real stagnancy in the character development of Shrek. Yeah.

You're just like, we had four movies. Shrek should be past this stuff now. He's been working through this shit for the whole franchise. My goodness. Yeah. He's very static. He never seems to learn or change. And he gets himself into the same hijinks for the same reasons over and over again.

For Christ's sake. So it's annoying. And I will give, I'll give my half nipple. I mean, I'm inclined to give it to Fiona. Yeah. To alternate universe fiona alternate universe fiona i think i'm gonna give this movie no nipples i was so disappointed i've been disappointed in this movie for almost 14 years now and i don't think i have any nipples to give this time i feel

like yeah this is like a i think and also because i i i did like it's a wonderful life far better than i like shrek forever after but i feel like it's not an identical but a similar plot and takeaway that like is like worse or at least equally considerate of its woman character almost 70 years later it's such a bummer right so i i simply have no nipples to give it this time i can't give it any like well it was of the time like it wasn't and i would love to see shrek 5 written by not two white guys what if that happened we should write shrek 5 i can't i can't handle the pressure it's too much at least in shrek forever after when we see alternate reality fiona she isn't a quote-unquote old spinster librarian that's true who is a loser because shrek never married her she's a winner that's true who's awesome that's the one improvement that we've made in 70 years

it's not enough yeah no no nipples from jamie and with that 2024 is off to the traces uh we're uh shrek the hall we've Shrek'd the Halls. And now we're off to the Shraces. I also just think, okay, last thing. I just think it's really funny. And no offense to the Felicias of the world, but I think it was such an underwhelming line to be like, I've always wanted a daughter named Felicia. And you're like, okay.

Wow. Why? All of our Felicia listeners just unsubscribed. I just, it's such a, like, no, I i would it would be weird if they said either of our names you're like that's a pretty normal like that's really i've always wanted a baby shrek named caitlin i don't know anyways happy 2024 we're rigging it in as always uh again just another reminder if you want to check out our tour tickets that's on our link tree which is linked

in the description of this that's San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin and San Diego coming up at the beginning of next month and you can follow us in all the normal places on Instagram and we still post on the platform formerly known as Twitter.

So that's where you can find us. Yes. And you can also subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matreon, where we release two bonus episodes every month. Plus you'll get access to the back catalog of 150-ish bonus episodes, all for $5 a month at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. This month is Dance December, and we're covering Flashdance and Save the Last Dance. We're celebrating a little late this year so you'll you'll forgive

us yeah yeah yeah well i mean we never i mean portman july has been celebrated in every other month basically you're damn right and you can also get our merch at tpublic.com slash bechtel cast and again if you're going to those tour shows, we will have tour exclusive merch at the meet and greet. So that'll be a blast. And we also have an exciting January planned for you. So stay tuned gang. We love you. Shrek you later.

Shrek you later. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus. And a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated.

Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself?

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