The Bechdel Cast - Shrek with Atsuko Okatsuka

Episode Date: November 9, 2017

Once upon a time, two women named Jamie and Caitlin were locked in a tower by the patriarchy, but they broke free with the help of special guest Atsuko Okatsuka via talking about the movie Shrek.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @AtsukoComedy on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name's Jamie. My name's Caitlin. And this is Bechdelcast, the podcast about how women are represented in movies. But today it's an episode we've been waiting for a very long time to do.

And I'm so excited. And it's going to be the best day ever. It's Shrek. It's Shrek. But you're excited about Shrek the musical. Not Shrek the movie. I don't like Shrek the movie. I love Shrek the musical. It's the best Broadway musical ever committed to Broadway.

Broadway luminaries. Luminaries. Sutton Foster as Princess Fionaiona brian darcy james as shrek himself um i don't know who any of those people are dear god caitlin i'm very excited for i have a lot of things to say about shrek i'm very excited for for today i so so this is our podcast about the the bechdel test though yeah. Right. If you don't know what that is, hey, I'll tell you. It's a test. You apply it to a movie or whatever.

Sure is. It requires that there are two female characters with names. They talk to each other about anything other than a man. Most movies. Spoiler, this movie does not do very well. Does not do very well at all. In terms. But the musical does better.

Oh, does it? Yes. Interesting. Shrek the musical is essentially just a way more dramatic version of Shrek the movie. It's actually better because there's more emotional depth. Interesting. There's songs that sound like they could be sung by Bon Jovi, perhaps, but are instead being sung by Shrek, which is like wild. It's crazy.

Well, I'm fascinated to see where this discussion goes. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Let's introduce our guest before we get much further. That's it. She's a comedian. She is the co-founder of Disoriented Comedy. Atsuko Okatsuka! Hello! Welcome! Hi, hi. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for pitching Shrek. For some reason, it spoke to me. That's amazing. Yeah.

So wait, what's your personal history with Shrek? When did you first see the movie? Gosh, I guess when it first came out, right? Yeah. Okay, so 01. 2001. 2001. Yeah, I guess so.

It's crazy that Shrek has been in our lives for this long. 16 years. It honestly feels guess so. It's crazy that Shrek has been in our lives for this long. 16 years. It honestly feels like longer. It does. I don't remember life before Shrek. There's part two in it. Is there a three? There's a three and maybe a four. And a five in production gang.

Oh my goodness. And little did anyone in this room know a Broadway musical that ran for four years. I knew about the musical. I've seen like pictures of it and just the aesthetic of like Shrek and his makeup. I was like, oh, I never want to see that. It's very scary. There's a full taping of the Broadway production on Netflix.

It's been there for years. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who's ever watched it. Wow. But you can see Sutton Foster really, really humiliate herself. And she's in a show with Hilary Duff right now. So it's like, you know, she's not afraid to do things that are maybe a little embarrassing. But her playing Princess Fiona is like, man. And she got nominated for a Tony.

So ups to Sutton Foster. Yeah, this was a very popular, successful musical in spite of the fact that it was Shrek the musical and very scary to look at. Well, Shrek the movie was enormously popular. Yes. But people dressed as Shrek should not have worked out. No, for sure. And if you look at it, you're like, this is very scary.

Is the makeup scary? Let me pop a visual for you. It's just like, it's weird looking. It's not just like the green big head. I mean, he's got like a big bulbous head and then they put little ears on him. It's a lot. Which is what you said is great because that is the theme of Shrek, right? Oh, wow.

Okay. Yeah. So they do make him look like Shrek in the movie. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Okay. There's no compromise. Arguably, maybe there could have been a little compromise.

But I mean, I guess if you're trying to get kids to go to it but yeah and the whole point is like you know it's not what's on the outside right that's the moral of the story but with the cameras that close and it's a Broadway musical so you're not meant to be as close as you can see them in the Netflix special because you can see just

Brian Darcy James sweating through his shirt he's giving it 110% and that's why he gets nominated for Tony's just Brian Darcy James sweating through his Shrek. He's giving it 110%. Yeah. And that's why he gets nominated for Tony's. Yeah, because I'm pretty sure ogres don't have pores, you know? And so you can't, for the realism of it, yeah. The animated Shrek seems very slick. Right?

Yeah. He's got hair follicles. I feel like he's got pores. Yeah. Well, the Shrek of the books is riddled with facial acne. And I'm not shaming Shrek. I'm just saying I have a visual of Shrek looking into a mirror full of Shrek. I don't know him wiping sweat off.

Well, there's... He's got blackheads. Oh, yeah. He's got blackheads. He does have hair, too. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

I can relate. There's an opening scene, like the opening credits in the movie, there's a whole montage and Shrek is getting a mud shower, basically, in one of the shots. And he turns around and you see his nipples, you see his chest hair. Oh, he does have chest hair in the movie. I didn't remember that. I just remember the mud bath. Yeah, I was looking for the finer details. How human is he? You know, he's just like us. So you've just seen the first one? Yes, I have only seen the finer details. How human is he? Yeah. You know, he's just like us.

So you've just seen the first one? Yes, I have only seen the first one. Yeah, I think the second one, he has kids or something? The third one, he has kids. The second one is about him meeting Fiona's parents. I own Shrek 2 on DVD. Jesus Christ. Brag.

Amazing. Wow, no, I need to see. Aristotle and I were trying to figure out the difference between three and four I don't think I went as far I've seen the third one I haven't seen the fourth one see we've both seen

the fourth one but neither of us you haven't seen the fourth one I'm sorry I just made Aristotle seem like more of a freak than he actually is I've seen

one two four and the musical a million times okay I have not seen three so what's

your personal experience katelyn i saw shrek one in the theater the theater the theater not the musical stage theater just the movie theater and we'll make do but yeah i've seen shrek probably a dozen times quite a few times i've seen this movie a lot what about you well this is one of my first of all i'm sorry in advance but this is one of the few chances i have on the podcast to shine in terms of having knowledge of a movie because usually i'll say i watched it an hour ago but this time i get to say i have a grand history of the shrek i did not see it in the theaters, but I did see it. I've seen it many times. I got very interested in the musical after being very afraid of it when I watched it in college on Netflix.

I have since seen Shrek the Musical over 10 times. I've written quite a bit about it. I've sold my own Shrek nudes on the Internet and raised $3,000 for Planned Parenthood. And describe for the listeners at home who may not be familiar with your Shrek nudes, what exactly do you mean by that? When I say my Shrek nudes, I mean I painted myself green and took a bunch of nudes and then sold them on the World Wide Web, even though that wasn't their original purpose. They were for an export, but I recycled them and sold them for one of the many times the government was trying to defund Planned Parenthood. This was about two years ago. Yeah, it seems to happen every month.

It was one of those times. Unfortunately, we didn't say them with Shrek nudes, as I was hoping we would. But I've seen Shrek the musical over ten times in three states. And I write about it about once a year. And it has become an important part of my life. Okay. Wow. And how similar is the musical to the first movie?

I would say that, I mean, it's the same story. But the way it's told is very different. You learn, I mean, even on a base level, you learn way more about Shrek as a character and, and you get more about his background and the first scene of the musical than you get in the entire movie. So, yeah, we don't get much Shrek backstory.

You do in later movies, but yeah, in the, in the musical, the first scene is little Shrek, which is always fun to see in the musical because you see a young, usually a young husky boy dressed as Shrek. With green, yeah.

And his parents are singing to him about how ogres have to be very tough and they're hated by society and you have to be really tough. And then they kick him out of the house when he's seven years old to go and brave the world himself. So automatically you're like,

man, Shrek's had a hard life. Whereas the movie is just sort of like, somebody wants to know me. And you don't find out anything about him. Shrek the movie is 90% Smash Mouth. It is. I forgot about that soundtrack. Oh God, it does not age well.

Here's something fun. In Shrek the musical, it still ends with Smash Mouth's I'm a Bully and her. The whole cast sings it and they take their bows. Here's something fun. In Shrek the Musical, it still ends with Smash Mouths. I'm a believer. The whole cast sings it and they take their bows. It's great. They just got the right Smash Mouth was like, yeah, you can have that song. Yeah, I mean, Smash Mouth, I'm guessing

they need the check. Sometimes hear it at Ross. Yeah. And that song's a cover anyways. That song's not Smash Mouth's song. It's like some 60s. All Star is their song. But All song is a cover anyways like that song is not smash mouth song it's like some 60 all stars there's all star is a smash mouth original the smash mouth rich my favorite memorial tweet for 9-11 every year is the smash mouth one where smash mouth posts the same weird tweet every year of like smash mouth remembers 9-11 and it just has a visual of

those words and then like the silhouette of the twin i was like why you like what no i bizarre uh the the most bizarro tribute to 9-11 you'll find every single year for like as long as twitter has existed okay well uh they're smash smash mouth how do you smash mouth smash mouth smash mouth Okay, well, there's Smousemouth. Smousemouth. Smousemouth. Smousemouth. Shmousemouth. Let's do the recap. Let's do it.

Shrek is about an ogre named Shrek. He's stinky. He's stinky. He loves mud. He just wants to be left alone. And he lives in this, I don't know, Middle Ages, whatever, like, European kingdom thing. And all these fairytale creatures get dumped on his swamp lawn. And he's like, wait a minute. But before that, he meets Donkey.

And Donkey is a talking donkey. Because Lord Farquaad is trying to round up all the fairytale creatures. So he's, like, paying people to get rid of them because he wants this perfect white kingdom without any gross fairy tale creatures. So all these people, all these fairy tale creatures end up on Shrek's thing. He's like, I'm going to go talk to this Lord Farquaad. And meanwhile, Lord Farquaad is trying to be a king. And in order to do that, he has to marry a princess. Oh, but the funny thing is

he's short. He's short and it's hilarious. He's short and so therefore he's a little Napoleon. Right. I wonder if that is like

a poke at Disney for having like all like the short daddies. Well, this whole movie is a poke at Disney for sure. To the point where it's like why does it exist?

Yeah. But we'll get there. But so Shrek's like hey, Farquaad get your shit off my land and he's like go rescue a princess for me so I can be king and marry her so Shrek goes and rescues Princess Fiona she's locked in the highest tower of the tallest room of the whatever another person who's too good to be in this movie Cameron Diaz I don't care much for Cameron Diaz I don't either but person who's too good to be in this movie, Cameron Diaz. I don't care much for Cameron Diaz. I don't either, but she's still too good for this movie.

She's got thin lips. That's my hot critique. So he goes to rest. He and Donkey, who are friends at this point, even though he's like, I don't like friends. I don't have any friends. They go to rescue Princess Fiona. And she's like, wait a minute. You're an ogre? Gross.

I hate ogres. I need to be rescued by my true love so I can have true love's first kiss. And they're like, why is that so important to you? And then we find out it's because a spell had been cast on her. And she turns into an ogre every night. But she and Shrek are like kind of starting to dig each other. They're vibing. They're vibing.

They're vibing. They're lamping and they're vibing. They're lamping together and they're starting to kind of vibe a little bit. So Donkey is like, hey, and Donkey discovers her secret. She keeps like hiding it. One of the best songs in the musical is sung by Donkey. Yeah, sung by Donkey when Shrek and Fiona are vibing.

So Brian Darcy James and Sutton Foster are like, we're sharing squirrel meat or whatever they're eating. And then Donkey sings this whole song called Make a Move and it's a funky, like shalalalalala, don't be shy. It's kind of like the love song. You gotta kiss the girl. But he's like, make a move.

And then he brings in the three blind mice and they do a solo. And they're like these hot, but they're hot blind ladies in this version. It's super fun. It's a blast. Top to bottom. You gotta love it. All right. That's part of where the musical passes the Bechdel test.

The three blind mice talk to each other. Oh, because they're all women. Yeah. Oh. I know. the three blind mice talk to each other. Oh, because they're all women. Yeah. Oh. I know. Not all blind mice are men. Common misconception. So Shrek and Fiona, they're vibing,

but he overhears this conversation between Donkey and Fiona where she's revealing that, oh, I'm an ugly ogre and I can't be this way and I have to marry Lord Farquaad so I can be a beautiful, hot human lady the rest of my life. Sure. To lift the curse. As one does.

And Shrek misinterprets this and thinks that she's talking about Shrek and being like, who would love an ugly beast like an ogre? So he gets all pissed off and he sells her to Lord Farquaad, basically. This is where the act one break in the musical is and it's that's the act one because this that's like the end of the movie almost i know i know well i mean the act one break is is more than halfway in but oh because acts and in theater it's a two act different it's two acts yeah okay i was thinking three act structure like screenplays i do have a master's degree in screenwriting. So it makes sense that you would think that.

No, but in terms of act one, intermission, act two. Got it, got it, got it. So act one is usually longer. But yeah, there's this beautiful three-part harmony. I've performed it at many a karaoke night. Oh, wow. With Shrek, Donkey, and Fiona singing. It's a song about who I'd be.

Shrek is singing about how he wants to be a Viking. Donkey is singing about how he fears he's going to be alone for the rest of his life. Fiona singing about how her feminine illusions are falling apart. It's an, it's a beautiful, go see the musical. It's at almost every junior high at this point. It's off Broadway.

Every junior highs. I was, I saw it at Malibu Junior High last year, and it was bad. It sounds like an expensive production to pull off. Especially for high school

with all the costumes. I mean, is there a dragon in it? Well, that's... Yes. And it's this huge puppet that has two songs. Whoa. Yeah.

So that's another place where it passes. But anyways, so you sort of have to drive out to wealthy i had to drive to malibu uh because they can afford to put on shrek jr right but uh worth the trip don't regret it glad to hear it yeah so fiona goes off and they're she's about to marry lord farquad and donkey's like shrek you fucking idiot she likes you and he's like, Shrek, you fucking idiot. She likes you. And he's like, what? Oh, okay.

And then he goes and storms the wedding. And he's like, wait a minute. Stop. I love you. And then Shrek and Fiona kiss. And she thinks it's lifting the spell. But because her true love is Shrek and she takes true love's form, she stays as an ogre and isn't a human anymore. And she's like, I thought I would be beautiful.

And he's like, I thought I would be beautiful. And he's like, you are beautiful. And then they get married in the end. Hashtag relationship goals. And then suddenly the whole town's not scared of ogres anymore. Right. Because of feminist icon Shrek. Yeah. They were like, wow.

It's time to be progressive. Yeah. Well, here's something that is bizarre i mean there's so there's this movie like baseline totally pointless shouldn't exist but lord farquaad's character is basically trying to like purify you know like hitler style trying to purify the kingdom by marginalizing anyone who is not human basically right and and but created by humans yeah you know it's i mean it's kind of it is kind of like uh gentrification or yeah yeah forcing forcing immigration and that like humans who have power made these rules human beings made

up fairy tales and then to suddenly be like no no, no longer. Yeah. You go into this swamp. Get out of here, witch. Yeah. A witch. Right. Gets, oh. Yeah, these, like, imaginations. Probably burned at the stake.

Yeah. We don't see that witch again, I don't think. Totally. Yeah. So you go to this swamp where we fear another creature that we made up, ogre, you know. Right. And that's where you will be forced to stay.

Which, you know, there were no borders, so will be forced to stay which you know there were no borders so i don't know how that was gonna work they basically all say like go to shrek's house yeah yeah they're like oh shrek has a house go there yeah and then everyone's which is another fun all the fairy tale creatures have two numbers in the musical one and i won one act two let your freak flag fly very inspiring okay i i guess i gotta watch this pinocchio was nominated for a tony caitlin what i know he could hit the high notes he was he was on the ones and two he was great it was great pinocchio got nominated for a tony we're gonna go to malibu we've got next yeah next next spring're going to go. It'll be a trip. It's I'm busy that day.

Listen, it's a fun, it's a blast. So we're here to talk about mostly the movie. Although feel free to, I will continue to interject, but, but,

but thank you for, for sure. One of the things about the movie is that there's pretty much only one female character. You could argue that the dragon is female, but that dragon doesn't have any lines and is a dragon. So there's essentially only one female character. She has lines in the musical. She has a whole song in the musical. Okay, in the movie, there's one, and she's Fiona.

There's a few other ones. You see some fairy godmothers and a witch and stuff like that, but they usually don't have lines. So there's really only one primary. They're usually talking to Shrek. Right. So there's one primary female character, Fiona. Immediately she's framed as like a damsel in distress. Right.

So she has to be saved. She has to be rescued. So the trope stands strong. Stands. I mean, they subvert it to an extent. Sure. Not to the point where it to an extent. Sure. Not to the point where it might be uncomfortable for people. Not to the point where she's the dominant one in the relationship.

But this, I mean, this whole movie is based on like, oh, it's postmodern fairy tales, which is grow up, whatever, like dumb. But yeah, I don't know. Right. I mean, this movie does a lot to sort of subvert the tropes of fairy tales. Mostly in a very obnoxious, egregious way. Totally. But at the end of the day, the movie is still about, like, a woman needing to be saved by a man via being kissed by her one true love to break this enchantment.

And it's, like, one, very heteronormative. No surprise there. And two, why? enchantment it's like one very heteronormative no surprise there and two why okay so later in the movie we see a scene where robin hood comes and like tries to take her away and rescue her again and then she like beats the shit out of him and all the merry men if she's capable of that why didn't she just save herself from being in the tower, kick the dragon's ass herself, go to the witch's house who put the spell on her in the first place and be like, fucking undo this, you asshole. Well, in theory, she was like beholden by the belief, right? That she had that this is what had to happen.

But that's not. Well, it was never established. Well, maybe she thinks that she has to be rescued but when she's describing the nature of the spell to donkey all she says is i need to kiss my one true love so like it's not clear why she could have left and found her true love right she could have been active and not insanely fucking passive. Got it. Got it. Right. So there's that problem. Right. I'm with you.

Yeah. There is the problem that Shrek and Donkey and this entire movie don't respect women. Here are some examples. Different comments that Shrek makes. Snow White ends up on his table and he's like, dead broad off the table. Shrek. Come on. There's the moment where they dead broad off the table. Rack. Come on.

There's the moment where they're entering the castle where the dragon lives. Donkey's like, so where is this fire-breathing, pain in the neck anyway? And Shrek said, inside, waiting for us to rescue her. Feminist icon Shrek. I miss that. Disappointing. I miss that quick line.

That's why I watch these movies 8,000 times. I can pick up on all this stuff. Musical Shrek, way less misogynist. Oh, good. More insecure. Oh, that would be appropriate. More a little bit jittery, and it's just like, I don't know how to talk to girls. But in the movie, Shrek is constantly pushing her away, tossing her, throwing her.

A lot of physical violence towards her. There's at least one point where he slams her down on the ground as like, throwing her. Like, a lot of, like, physical violence towards her. There's at least one point where he slams her down on the ground as, like, shut up. Yeah. Yeah. It happens a lot in the movie. Oh, there's a moment when Donkey is telling Shrek to, like, wait till the right moment to crash the wedding, basically. Oh, yes.

And he's like, chicks love that romantic crap. So just putting us all in a box. Mm-hmm. Which is weird because he's been living alone for so long. He's like, chicks love that romantic crap. So just putting us all in a box. Which is weird because he's been living alone for so long to know these even rules. Dating and chicks. And if he had been kicked out at seven as well and had been living in that and just been hanging out with mud and slugs and stuff. I don't know how he would know that. Yeah, that's true.

Well, I don't know how he would know that. Right. Yeah. That's true. Well, I don't know. Maybe, well, first of all, maybe seven in like ogre years is like 25. Oh, 25. Like maybe he's actually 25 when he got kicked out. Sure, yeah. So he saw how his dad treated his mom. Right. But that's not, but that's not canon to the movie. Right.

Okay, yes. I have no... But in theory, I think I feel like in later Shrek movies, which I don't remember as clearly, that they address his background at some point, and maybe that's where the musical drew it from, because the musical was released in 08, maybe. It was also all adapted from a book, or at least the first movie.

A wonderful book by William Stieg, who's a great New Yorker cartoonist. And I recommend the original where Shrek is kind of just a villain who's forced to look at himself in a very existential way. Thus, my favorite illustration from the book, which is Shrek. The illustrated Shrek in a hall of mirrors looking back at a thousand Shreks. And it's like, it's us. It's society. Interesting. Anyways. Well well back to the back to the bashing back to the right it's beautiful source material well even with the dragon

too even though we we don't count her as a full speaking female role uh when when she realized like what stops her from being violent is like I guess lust right because she like wants to fuck donkey yeah exactly she sees something that she likes and then suddenly she has these long eyelashes that she's fluttering and she's like okay I'm gonna

stop my one dimensional character ways which is I just breathe fire and stop people unless I fall in love with a donkey dude. And she does, yeah. That's interesting. And you could sort of make the same argument for Cameron Diaz, for Princess Fiona,

of it's not until they meet a male love interest that suddenly these dimensions are released or empowered and somehow like in theory i feel like we're led to believe if shrek and donkey didn't show up fiona and the dragon would not have changed on their own oh totally not and like right fiona is like the only thing about her character especially at the beginning is that I need to find my true love or my true love needs to rescue me it's like incredibly one-dimensional in the musical okay Fiona is locked up in a tower by her parents oh on Christmas Eve and her parents are holding her hostage because they're telling

her that until her husband shows up that they were not gonna release her i think actually you learned something to that effect in shrek 2 well then there you go so beautiful beautiful song called um i know it's today sung by three different fionas young fiona teenage fiona and of course sutton foster who makes quite the entrance in that song. Anyways, nominated for a Tony. Snubbed for someone who probably did a better job doing something else. Back to the dragon, though. A point I wanted to make about that is that it drives me nuts in a movie or a TV show or whatever that there is a character who you don't really know what the gender is at first

and then the reveal is it's a girl. Like, oh, that cop that takes off its helmet and gets off a motorcycle, that was actually a woman. Because it's like, how fucking stupid is it that, like, being a woman is somehow

like a bonkers reveal? Right, right. It's supposed to be like more impressive or or the flaws make more sense that yeah or just like the thing that where i i mean i get why they do it i get what they're doing when that happens it's like this thing that you're socialized to believe is usually a man actually it's a girl surprise right but it's just like annoying that that has to be a reveal like that there are isn't just like representation of women in roles like that where we would just be like oh sure that's a girl because we see that as a woman all the time yeah well and another bit character that is deeply problematic that appears more in later movies and appears in the musical

to the point where future incarnations of the musical scrubbed this lyric except in one production i saw in massachusetts which was like get rid of it but anyway i spoke with the director this whole thing but the big bad wolf in the movie there's a lot of transphobic jokes oh that makes a lot that character's expense and even in the musical there's a song like something something something dress they called me a hot and tranny mess and that was the right and which was in the original musical in 08 but then they took it out because they were just like oh that's fucking nightmare that's terrible you can't say that um and and that's's kind of what this movie boils down to from a feminist perspective.

It's sort of like, oh, the female lead's a badass, but just never in a way that is actually threatening or challenging to patriarchal standards. Like, she's allowed to kick, referencing our favorite McSweeney's article, she kicks and she gets to fight a little bit but never in a way that super affects the plot and never in a way that that challenges the heteronormative fairy tale standards of she has to end up with a guy whether it's the tiny misogynist or the larger ogre misogynist.

Right. And that seemed, like I said, it feels so unearned when she's like kicking Robin Hood's ass because it's like, well, if you could do that and if you had the agency to do that, why didn't you have the agency to choose your own destiny and like go after what you actually wanted? If marrying a dude is what you want, fine. But, like, then go out and get it. Like, it just, it was insane to me that she was so passive and just, like, literally waiting around to be rescued. Because I think maybe the writers were focused more on undoing fairy tales in general, but not necessarily doing it in a refreshing way. Like, fairy tales are still about the damsel in distress.

But for them to be like, ah, you know, what we're going to do is just constantly remind you that you're watching a fairy tale getting undone. But we're not quite there yet with being ready to have

the female character be the lead. Right. Or the one that can choose her own adventure. No, we're not quite ready for that it was 2001 yeah i think it wasn't right it wasn't until like maybe tangled or um brave or you know yeah it had to be moana or moana yeah i haven't seen those three films that i just named gotta see moana yeah no i gotta see moana oh i did no, I gotta see Moana. Oh, I did watch Tangled. I feel like, was she more independent?

I don't even know. I think so. More, but still, the guy was a little bit too involved. Okay, okay. He had to show up. Yeah. I remember her being, like, snippier than regular princesses, but... Right.

Yeah, I think they were still focused on, like, people are used to still the idea of, like, the fairy tale. Let's just make fun of the idea of fairy tale. But it's still patriarchal. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Absolutely. I mean, I think that this whole movie is built on,

and so much of like, so much of Shrek, and this goes into this whole thing that I think about a lot because I don't have a life, is like how basically DreamWorks was this company that was formed to spite Disney who do these fairy tale stories constantly and so shrek was just essentially meant to be a big middle finger from jeffrey katzenberg who produced some really famous disney like renaissance movies yeah um as

a big middle finger to be like oh look i did all this great work and then you fucking fire me or whatever the falling out was there and now i have dreamworks and now we're just gonna say fuck you to disney all the time and doesn't really take the time to do that in a very thoughtful or interesting way because even when like princess fiona's doing the kick thing and in theory like total just on paper that sounds very cool but really all that does is earn her respect in the eyes of the men she's traveling with. Other than that, there's not a big effect on the plot. Because up until that point,

Shrek was like, just mostly found her as a nuisance. And then when he sees that, he just does that even after that happens. But he finds her a total nuisance, and then as soon as he witnesses that whole fight scene. He's like, well, I'm not going to beat her up anymore. Whoa, that was amazing. That was so cool.

I have a boner now. He does not throw her on the ground in the musical. Thank you very much. Oh, good. I'm so glad. I think that's probably just a Sutton Foster thing. She's like, I will not be thrown. I'm the queen of Broadway.

I will not be thrown on the ground. I mean, I think this movie, although it does not handle this that well, and I'll explain why in a moment, but the moral of the story, as we already mentioned, is that you should judge people based on their character and you should get to know people before you judge them and it doesn't matter what you look like

and your important thing is the content of your character. However, one of the reasons they don't really reinforce that in the story is that it's like pretty heavily confirmed that like fiona when she is an ogre they're like yeah you're definitely ugly she's like i'm ugly and donkey's like yep you're you're for sure ugly and the thing is though that like she basically looks exactly like she does as a human except she's green and she's heavier so they're basically equating being fat to being ugly which is incredibly problematic and then on top of that and they do they do that with trek's character as well yeah they do right yeah any otherness is not accepted by farquad's peeps. Right.

And the movie's trying to say, like, no, you can still be ugly, and you can still be likable, but they're not... I mean, in the end, there's that line where she's like, I thought I was going to be beautiful, and Shrek's like, you are beautiful, but it's still sort of, like,

I think implied that only Shrek could find her beautiful because he's also an ogre and she's still not. Because she doesn't adhere to Western beauty standards. It's the whole, you are so beautiful, but only to me. Because that to me is what makes it like, whoa, why can't you just end it at you are so beautiful? Right, right. Well, and then what do we think of the ending of sort of, it's implied, especially in the back half of the movie, once Donkey finds out that Fiona's knight form is as an ogre,

where he's like, well, Shrek's an ogre. You should hang out with him. Where it's like, I don't know. And this has been on, and i don't think originally you know it was like eight or nine when this movie i didn't have the language to articulate it i was like well are we to believe you know by the end when fiona turns out that love's true form for her as she's an ogre if she had been a human would that have not been okay like can only like and like belong together in this universe and what does that mean and like is is that that never has sat well with me like that just seems like a weird

backwards thing to i feel like um gay and lesbian people experience this a lot where like they're like you're gay i have a gay friend you should meet my gay friend and it's like well what if i don't like them yeah you there yeah there's like a pretty good chance you wouldn't want to date him but people are just like oh because you're both gay you should hang out and it's like no so yeah that reminded me of that yeah that happens to people of color too where it's like oh you would love my black guy friend you know he's single yeah to another black girl, you know? Right. Oh, really quick, too. Like, going back to, like, it's not what's on the exterior. It's what's on the interior.

If that was the case, too, like, Shrek in actuality is not very likable. Like, he's an asshole. Neither is Fiona. Yeah, and Fiona either. And so, you know, I'm confused about that being the message initially. Because it's like, I've known people like Shrek that's like, no, leave me alone. I'm a grumpy person because people don't understand me. And so in turn, they're an asshole.

They let tragedy turn them into an asshole. Right. And they are hard to get along with. So I don't know. Tell me what I have to hang on to and that's I mean I think maybe that in terms of the way that masculinity is portrayed a lot in pop culture that that is sort of a common thing to do of like well he's an asshole because he just doesn't know how to express himself so

you have to accept the fact that he's an asshole to you usually a female character because he just doesn't because he just doesn't know. He just doesn't know, and you just have to deal with it. And then you've got to soften him up. You've got to fix him. You've got to fix him. That's an insult to people who never let sour things turn them sour and are nice.

Right. That's an insult to people who are actually nice, even if maybe on the exterior. I don't know. You know what I mean? Right. I think it's cutting, you know, and no matter, you know, obviously that's not to discount any character or person's experience. But you can't always cut someone that much slack.

Like, you can't just be an asshole to everybody because you're, like, so insecure in your masculinity you can't express yourself, you know? Or, like, you had a difficult childhood. And that's all valid and that's all character stuff. But don't be surprised if people don't like you because of it right there should be consequences for being an asshole right always even like donkey there's a scene where after they've like gone on the whole journey and fiona is hanging out with far quad donkey's all like oh you treat me badly and you undermine me and all this stuff and shrek's like why are you still hanging around then which is a legitimate question because like donkey why are you letting this person emotionally abuse you and donkey's like because that's what friends are for

they forgive each other which like feels like a wrong message to send to people it's like if someone's like being abusive toward you yeah maybe don't forgive them if that's if it's their character to be a complete fucking asshole yeah i would argue the more powerful the most powerful relationship in this movie is shrek and donkey and in the musical but that's like shrek and donkey have more songs together than Shrek and Fiona do in the musical, dude. But whatever. But there is more emphasis placed on, I guess, Shrek and Fiona's relationship is more integral to the plot. But in terms of characterization, it's way more Shrek and Donkey. If they have these, originally Shrek rejects him and he's like, no, I'm fine. And then he's like, okay, you can can come and then they have a falling out and

then they have a reunion and then it like there's just more in general so I don't know I hadn't thought of that until I watched it this last time watching specifically for how female characters are treated and granted you know Shrek and Fiona have a falling out but it's based on a misunderstanding and then he sells her right only to return and marry her without her ever saying wait you sold me because you got mad and you didn't even ask me what i did like right that should be a problem right of like you you overheard something and then you sold me to a to hitler like what are you doing? You know?

Yeah. But she's like, no, you're right. The son's about to set. Let's marry. Right. Right, right, right. Like, let's make out. Did I remember the donkey actually apologizing too?

He goes like, because friends forgive each other. And then Shrek says he forgives donkey. But like, I don't really know what donkey did wrong. Besides just getting close with Fiona. I don't know. I think it was because Donkey didn't tell Shrek because he promised Fiona he wouldn't tell. Oh, as part of the misunderstanding, Shrek was all like, oh, they're buddy-buddy

and they're ganging up on me. But, like, that's not what was happening. So if Donkey did apologize, he didn't need to but yeah which goes back to the point of like yeah which goes back to the point of like that's a weird that is a weird message to give let's if kids are watching this and going like oh that's how it should be a friend if they wrong me i apologize and i should forgive anyway even if i didn't do anything wrong i don't know i don't know what the demographic is of this film. I mean, it's more adult. It's pretty wide. Right.

Well, it's kids and adults. Like there was enough like adult humor that adults can appreciate it. Yeah. If you're the lowest common denominator. Yeah. It's like small penis jokes and stuff. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. I mean, like that's and this is another like DreamWorks movies thing where there's what happens in DreamWorks movies. But this is like the first very successful one where this movie is like pushing postmodern jokes to the point where for the most part, this movie in theory is for kids. You can bring your kids to see it because most of the jokes will fly over their head. But to the point where it's like, do these kids even know what is being riffed on? Like, do they know the source material of these four billion fairy tales?

And do they know? And, you know, so it is made more for stupid adults who don't have a... Sorry, people who love this movie. But, like, you know, don't have a developed enough brain to laugh at anything other than, like, I heard of that. I've heard of that. I've heard of... Because that's this whole movie.

It's like, oh, my God, a song. Huh? It is funny because the, the ogre is singing the song. Like there's just so little thought put into any joke and it's infuriating. It's really. And then another note on the comedy is that like Shrek is always cracking jokes.

They're not that funny, but at least he's like making jokes. Donkey is by and large, like the comic relief of the movie. Even Farquaad gets some funny moments. Fiona, she doesn't get any funny. I feel like none of the comedy in the movie is given to her. She's never given an opportunity to make people laugh, except for maybe the nod to the Matrix thing,

where she's up in the air and kicks the two down there's like a rotate yeah right those movies were dumb people but like yeah there's just she doesn't get any well her her character sucks i she's like a brat she's entitled she's passive this movie does a little bit more than other movies in terms of like showing why the two characters might like each other, but it's all very superficial stuff where it's like, Oh, they both burp and they both like to. And again,

that's her earning his respect by being more like him. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Being more like a man is, earns her respect. She's like,

let me take this snake and turn it into an animal balloon. Oh, cool. Right. I'm like, trick me take this snake and turn it into an animal balloon. Oh, cool trick. Cool dick balloon, Fiona. So, yeah, I don't like her character in any way. And the attempts at the movie does make it like, because so often you see in a movie where it's like, a man is the lead and he has a love interest and you were never really sure why they'd be interested in each other because the female characters usually so poorly developed that it makes no sense why they would end up together. Right.

But they're like, she's hot, so he likes her. And that's good enough. I think the movie does a little bit tiny more than most movies to develop that romantic relationship, but it's still not enough. Mm-hmm. So Shrek. still not enough so shrek i think and i think it is interesting just a quick acknowledgement of how shrek has aged into now where largely except with children and adults who saw it when they were stupid and have not gotten uh smarter or more critically thinking since 2001 which god helped those people but there there's been this huge

subculture that's developed of people making fun of Shrek for how derivative and lame and, you know, just a movie that really takes pleasure on feeling very cutting edge while accomplishing nothing, you know, and there's this whole subculture for it

online, and some of it, and at this point it's pretty much extinct and that's good, but you know you know like i'm sure some of our listeners would recognize the shrek is love shrek is life videos and like all these i'll show them to you okay they're gonna i don't know about these dang they're gonna blow your mind there was this there's this pc game that came out around the time shrek the movie did and people found it maybe 10 to 12 years after the movie came out around the time Shrek the movie did. And people found it maybe 10 to 12 years after the movie came out. And started making these very bizarre sketches using the Shrek characters. That were very hyper-sexual and demonized Shrek. And condemned the character.

And sometimes they were very funny. Sometimes they were too dark and don't watch those ones. There's also a subculture for jimmy neutron as well but anyways all that to say shrek i would argue is not a movie that has aged well in any way and kind of in a in a in a pop culture way hasn't been as accepted down the i mean shrek five is going to make a million dollars but it's not going to have as many only a million dollars that's terrible for a million sorry a billion a trillion it's gonna make it 10 times what boss baby made or the emoji movie or the emoji movie oh r.i.p emoji movie probably feminist icon the emoji um but um but you know all i have to say

like shrek 5 will and this is not saying lot, but probably be more conscientious of its audience than Shrek that came out two months before 9-11. You know, like it really was just like, yeah, what was subversive in 2001 is deeply problematic now. Yeah. Right. I'll show you Shrek is Love, Shrek is Life. I'm excited to see that. Yeah. Does anyone have

any other final thoughts about the movie? I don't think so. I'm going to watch two, three, four, and five, I guess. In the musical and Netflix.

In the musical. Because besides them having kids and him meeting her parents and maybe finding about his parents, I don't know,

maybe it'll be cool to see like the fifth one be like his daughter Shrek. Ooh, woke Shrek. Girl Shrek. Girl Shrek. All-female reboot of Shrek. Yeah, yeah, something.

Queer Shrek falls in love with Fiona, and she's a girl. Or, like, maybe she doesn't fall in love, and she's just trying to get a job, and it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, a female Sh just trying to get a job and it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. A female Shrek tries to negotiate a salary is the plot of Shrek 5.

Yeah, tries to negotiate a salary. Exactly. Also, one more thing to throw in for Shrek 3, the only Shrek movie I have not seen, it turns out that came out in 07 and already the Shrek culture was so such a joke that Tim and Eric were the first people to jump on promoting Shrek 3 as a great move it's it's been a joke for well over 10 years now and I would recommend watching the Tim and Eric Shrek 3 promo videos as well because they were issued a cease and desist. That's amazing. Let us discuss whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. Sure does. No, not.

No, sorry. Were there even any opportunities? When were two women in the same scene? I mean, in the beginning, when all the fairy tale creatures are in Shrek's swamp, there are like a few fairy godmothers. There's Snow White, but she is unconscious. Oh, that's the other thing I wanted to say. In the end, at the wedding?

No. Oh, yeah. At the end. So you see her in the beginning in like the glass casket thing. Sleeping, unconscious, so she can't talk. Yeah. In the end, though, she and Cinderella slap each other whenever Fiona's trying

to throw her bouquet. Yeah, yeah. Perpetuating that, like, oh, fighting. Do they talk, or do they just... They do not speak. God damn it.

They only slap each other because they want the bouquet so bad because... Because that means they'll get married next. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God damn it. Yeah.

And then, so... Jeffrey Kempn then so who woke her up first of all i want to know that well someone she's like okay kissing her surprise kiss consensually oh gosh yeah you cannot have consent when you're in a coma that's what we need a girl we've all seen kill bill yeah no you will get get... She attacks with her mouth. Aristotle, Snow White comes back in later Shrek movies, right? She comes back in Shrek 3? I don't know.

She's in the trailer for 3. So she keeps coming... She's not represented better. And granted, with Snow White you're presented with an uphill battle for a moment one sure especially whenever lord farquaad finds like the magic mirror on the wall and he's like how do i become a king and he's like you got to marry one of these princesses so he does this

whole like bachelorette number one right something like cinderella is a mentally abused juddin whose hobbies are cooking and cleaning for her two evil step sisters first of all at least they're probably not her hobbies yeah yeah at least they say she didn't leave it i don't know but then like it's kind of like it's like shaming her for it like it's not her fault that she was abused but they're like oh she's not a viable candidate because she's been abused by men and then they talk about snow white the joke is even though she lives with seven other men, she's not easy. And then just kiss her dead, frozen lips and find out what a live wire she is. Or don't kiss a sleeping, unconscious woman. Don't ever do that.

Yeah. And then it sort of presented, or this was my read of the scene, that Farquaad is pressured by the people, you know, his, like, thugs or whatever around him to choose fiona because she's the least damaged sounding of the three but then the mirror is like but also wait i should tell you that thing that major plot point coming up in 45 minutes you know and and so he chooses her because she sounds like the least bogged down by her circumstances that are not her fault yeah but that's not even true you know oh i hate it oh the other thing i wanted to point out is that shrek rescues fiona a night passes the next day like they they got off to a rocky start he keeps throwing her on the ground and she doesn't like it the next day she kills a bird with her voice and then steals the bird's eggs.

Fun fact. She steals the eggs and like cooks them. And her way of like making a nice gesture to be like, hey, let's make amends is to cook them food. That's true. He cooks for her later. True. He cooks her swamp food. He made her the weed rat.

Weed rats, right. Yeah. So I let that go on the basis that he reciprocated it. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. But I the basis that he reciprocated it. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. But I was just like, oh, she's doing like a domestic chore. Right.

And maybe in you, she probably conditioned to think that's what you should do. Right. Right. I wondered where she would cook in that space she was in for so long. But you know. Did she have access to a kitchen? What was going on there? Well, in the musical, she says she had a hot plate.

Oh, okay, good. I mean, I worry about these things. It sounds like the musical. She had a hot plate and a chamber pot. Oh, good. Oh, no, no. Yeah, she says, I had no toilet. That was the line in the musical.

Oh, my gosh. Well, it sounds like the musical answered a lot of questions I have about it. Yeah. You gotta watch it. So, yeah, the movie does not pass the Bechdel test. It doesn't even come close. There are never two women for taking roles in the same scene at any point.

Let's rate the movie on a nipple scale. Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I'm going to give it like a one. Like it does not do well for me. Between her only ambition is to fall in love with a man and be rescued by him.

It doesn't matter even who it is. She's just like, I just need a man to save me and kiss me. That's really her only ambition pretty much throughout. And eventually, you know, she finds someone who she might like, even though, like, are they compatible? I don't know. That remains her whole goal throughout the movie. And Shrek is a misogynist piece of shit. Donkey isn't much better.

The treatment of women is just bad. Yeah. It's no good. There's no getting around it. No. So one nipple, it belongs to Donkey. Weird choice. Well, because I like to get an animal.

Okay, never mind. I'm going to read. Like an additional nipple. Like another one on his chest. I wonder how many nipples donkeys have. Do they have

stay-tuned for donkey facts with Kaylin? Yeah, do... I don't even know how that works. Does it protrude more if you're a certain donkey? Right?

Two teats. Two teats? That's what popped up on Google right away. It didn't say two nipples. It said two teats. Two teats? Two teats? That's what popped up on Google right away. It didn't say two nipples. It said two teats. Okay, so one donkey teat. Caitlin here pinned a nipple on the donkey.

I'm going to have to say, I give it a one too. Because even though it's the old tale of, you know, the princess needs to get married and that's her one thought it's also motivated by her looks yeah yeah because if i do it that i don't i don't have to be an ogre anymore at night right uh so it's just like an extra one-two punch into into my nipples and that one nipple i will put on i guess far quadad. You see his nipple in the movie. Oh, yeah, you do. He's like sitting in bed, topless. Oh, I don't remember that.

Yeah, it's when he's like re... Oh, he's probably jerking off because it's when he's looking at the magic mirror on the wall and he's like, show me again. And it like rewinds just like a picture of her and he's like in his bed, not wearing a shirt, probably jerking off. Was the mirror always a guy too?

Yeah. I don't remember. That character you see, and I think, no, the mirror. Oh, the mirror. I think the mirror is in Snow White. And he is a male.

I thought that too, because originally I was like, shouldn't there be a female character? But I checked it. Okay, got you. That's why he was saying those things about the princesses. Right.

Something they could have subverted, but chose not to. Chose not to. Or it's not like they're like, hey, should we subvert this or not? They probably didn't even think of it. They're probably just like, well. No, my friend's a guy. I'd like to give him a job.

I'm going to put the nipple in the mirror, actually. Okay, yeah. So speaking as a woman who has been sexually rejected by Farquaad in a local production of Shrek the Musical, I'd like to give this movie one nipple in terms of its female portrayal and in terms of how its Farquaads respond to 22-year-old women sexually interested in them. No, but I mean, it's just there's no getting around it. There's no really redeeming female character. So it's even worse than most movies we encounter where a popular summer movie usually includes one female character who might be great and

has agency, but there's no one for her to talk to. Not only is there no one for Fiona to talk to, but her character is completely half-baked as well. That said, watch Shrek the Musical. There's literally a lot of amazing work done, and I encourage you to foster Shrek feminism of your own. Reclaim what Shrek has denied you. Yes, indeed. Yes. And I will give

my nipple to Sutton Foster as Princess Fiona in Shrek the Musical. Sure. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Certainly.

Where can people follow you online? You can find me at Atsuko Comedy on Instagram, Twitter. I'm on all the... All the platforms. I'm on the platforms. It'll pop up if you start typing my very Japanese. Just A-T-S-U-K-O. It'll pop up.

She's very searchable. You can follow us on all the platforms as well. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. You can go to our website, Bechtocast.com. For sure. You can find upcoming live shows. We have a live show. Including our one-year anniversary live show at the Nerdist Showroom at Meltdown Comics. Gee, how did you get that?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe program director of that venue, Caitlin Durante, maybe she put that show up there. I don't know. So check that out. It's on December 2nd at 7 p.m. Details forthcoming. Indeed. Special guest special movie.

Will Alfred Molina be there? I haven't talked about Alfred Molina all day. Yeah. God. Okay, well, Alfred Molina, I don't care what he was doing at this time. He was like, I don't fuck with DreamWorks. I think that's what Alfred Molina would say. For sure.

Just putting words in his dignified, talented mouth. Also watch Rat Teens on the Cafe streaming platform as my new cartoon about teenage rats. It's wonderful. Thank you. And happily ever after. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017 was assassinated.

Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology, Swaps of different meds. but by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane,

what we can do about it, and why we should care. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.