The Bechdel Cast - Sinners with Mx. Dalia Belle

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Mx. Dalia Belle sink their teeth into Sinners (2025)! Follow Dalia on social media at @mxdaliabelleSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless, Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, campside media, and big money players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the Nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect storm in a sewer.

That was dumb. Do not follow my example. Listen to Crimless, Hillbilly Heist, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everybody? It's snacks from the trap nerds and all October long. We're bringing you the horror. We're kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified. Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror in Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die further. And it's the return of Tony's horror show, SideQuest written and narrated by yours truly.

We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary. And we'll cap it off with a horror movie Battle Royale. Open your free I-Hard radio app and search trap nurse podcast and listen now. Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times. It starts with a dream, a nature reserve and a spectacular new home. But little by little, they lose it. They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts.

Until one night, everything spins. out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and on my new podcast, here we go again. We'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? Each week, I'm calling up my friends, like Bill Nye, Lily Singh, and Pete Buttigieg, to talk about Everything from the space race to movie remakes to psychedelics. Put another way, are you high?

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the pectocast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have been? individualism. The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin. My name is Jamie and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point

for discussion. Caitlin, it's a thousand degrees and we have an incredible movie today. So hit them with what the Bexel test is, and then we'll just jump in. Happy to do it. It is a media metric created by our best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel. Which is our way of saying we met her twice. Yes, exactly. And it's a media metric. It has many different versions.

The one that we use is do two characters of a marginalized gender, have names, do they speak to each other, and is their conversation about something other than a man? And we also like it when it's narratively meaningful and relevant to the story. And today we are, I think it's been a while since we have covered a movie so close to its release date, but we've gotten so many requests for this movie. And we're very, very excited to bring a returning guest to discuss 2025, the one and only Ryan Cougler's Sinners. And our guest today is a comedian and cat mom.

and you remember her from our episode on Tangerine, it's Mix Dahlia Bell. Hello. Yay. Thank you so much for having me back. Welcome back. Oh, we're so happy to have you. Thank you for bringing sinners. That's my specialty.

I'm all about sin. Yeah, we love sin. We love sinning over here on the Bechtel cast. What's your, since this is such a new release, a recent film, there's, you know, not much history to be had with it. but what's your kind of relationship slash maybe just like overall impression of the film? Wow, that's so much to unpack. Slash like vampire movies in general, I guess.

Yeah. Are you a vampire movie head? I am gay, so I have watched more than my fair share of vampire movies. For the listeners at home, I am also black. So, you know, sinners hits on a lot of. subject matter and history that's pretty intrinsic and personal to me. Yeah, excited to dive deeper into that. Oh, and also I've had a crush on Michael B. Jordan for quite some time.

I mean, you're not made of stone. Exactly. He's just one of the handsomest men alive. Yeah, I'm just, I guess, assuming that everyone on the Zoom call has a crush on Michael B. Jordan. And he's, and here, I mean, yeah, what is better than Michael B. Jordan? Well, two of him. Yes, exactly.

So. I didn't really watch any like behind the scenes things, but there are some things that happened in this movie where I'm like, how did you do that? I imagine there's body doubles and stuff like that. But I'm like, but sometimes they're fighting each other and we can see both of their faces at the same time. And it's just movie magic. I just hope it's not AI.

I don't. Oh. Yeah. But I also did not look into it. I choose to believe they cloned Michael B. Jordan. I think that would be the responsible thing to do, honestly. Yeah. Yeah, like the prestige style.

Only without, you know, obviously without killing the double. Exactly. I'm saying that he had a good two body double named Percy Bell. Okay. Yeah. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie? I saw it right when it came out. we had just covered a couple of vampire movies in a row and I was not sure I knew I guess I was

bummed I think this was true for a bunch of people I was bummed that someone tipped me off that it was a vampire movie because I know a lot of people were like sea sinners don't look up anything because it was not really marketed that way which is kind of brilliant it was not so I was bummed that I knew it was a vampire movie going in I wish I could have seen it for the first time not knowing that. But, I mean, this movie is doing so much in a way that I feel like I didn't really fully appreciate until I was watching it to prep for this because it's also, you know, it's a period piece and a really thoughtful period piece of that.

Like, I just, I don't know. I really loved it. I saw it twice in theaters and just sort of let it wash over me. And it was very fun. It was fun learning how this movie was made, basically. Caitlin, what about you? I also saw this in theaters and I was able to go in without knowing that it was a vampire movie. I saw it the day after it came out and someone, I don't even know who it was, but I place a curse on them.

I just like kind of stay off of social media in general. Okay, Brett, wow, so healthy. Talk to people, question work. I don't know. I just like, I managed to avoid any spoilers. and I was like dazzled by the movie and the twists and everything and vampire movies are like a subgenre that I tend to be quite into I love I love a vampire we've covered a lot of them on the show and like you said Jamie a few recently the vampire movie that felt like most akin to this one that I've

seen is from dusk till dawn which Ryan Coogler cites as one of his inspirations for sinners But, yeah, similar in the sense that, like, most of the movie takes place at some sort of raucous nightclub kind of place, and then vampires attack. But did you think it's important to note that this is a very different genre of vampire? For sure. You know, like, we had Nosferatu, the sort of creepy mothball, parasitic type vampire. Vincent Bryce gave us the very dignified kind of. kind of sexy vampire. Then we had the era of the bisexual seducer vampire from interview with the vampire.

You had the sparkle vampire, of course, brilliant innovation from Twilight. Yep. Yeah, incredible. Yeah. And now we've made it all the way to cultural vampirism. Yeah. There's always innovation to be had in the vampire space. Yeah.

So true. So let's take a quick break, and then we'll get into the recap. Here we go. Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and on my new podcast, Here We Go again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer,

and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics, and pop culture. And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions. Like, are we heading towards another financial crash like in 08? Is non-monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lili Singh, and Bill Nye. When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now, because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Big Tick podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday. A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market. What does a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich, reveal about the economy? Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsize indicators of inflation. What's behind Elon Musk's trillion dollar payout?

There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back. He's putting politics aside. He's left the White House. And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't? CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure. Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her. Well, wait a minute, Sophia. Adia knows she's a cult leader. Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon. This person writes, My neighbor's been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals, and now my ceiling is collapsing.

I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult. Hold up, Sophia, a real-life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person, contractors are tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with her ceiling, and her neighbors are not happy.

Well, she needs to report them ASAP. She did, and now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time. So, do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everybody? This is Snacks from the Trap Nerds podcast, and we're bringing you the horror every week all October long. Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill. Me and Tony Bringing Back Fire Team on Left for Dead 2.

And we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movie. And figure out why black people always got to die first. The umbral reliquary invites any and all fooling, brave enough, to peruse its many curiosities. But take heed. Tales are final. Weekly horror side quests written and narrated by yours truly. With a full episode read and a commentary special.

And we will cap it off with horror movie battle royale. Jason versus Freddie. Michael Myers versus the 80 thing with the little tongue muster. October, we're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Trave Nerds podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. Yeah, I guess let's just jump into it because a lot happens. Yeah, my recap is quite long.

Okay, so there's a prologue with voiceover talking about people born with incredible musical talent that can pierce the veil between life and death and conjure spirits between the past and future. It's a gift that can bring healing to communities, but it also attracts. tracks evil. Ooh, foreshadowing. We're in the Mississippi Delta in 1932. We meet a young man named Sammy, played by Miles Katten. He stumbles into a small black church.

He's covered in blood. He's holding a broken guitar. He embraces the pastor who is his father, who begs Sammy to drop the guitar and leave his sinning ways in the past. And we're also seeing flashes of something scary that has happened, but we're not really sure what's going on. We cut to the day before.

We see Sammy going about his day. He lives in a community of mostly sharecroppers who work on a cotton plantation. Then we meet twin brothers, smoke and stack. both played by Michael B. Jordan. And they're doing the amazing twin shorthand where one's wearing a hat that's one color

and one is wearing a hat that's another color. And I just, twin media, I will say I was getting burnt out on famous men playing their own twins because that was happening a lot, like maybe 10 years ago. But when Michael B. Jordan does it, it's just something completely different.

Yeah, it's a special treat. It is. And he does an incredible job of, like, building out two very distinct characters. Like, when I was seeing it for the first time, I forgot a few times that, you know, it's the same actor. I think a lot of people did. They were like, wait, does Michael B. Jordan have a twin that no one knows about? Yeah, like, nope. Rami Malick style.

That's one of my, like, Rammy Malick has a twin and his name is, wait for it, Sammy Malick. Whoa. Just something I think about a lot. Fair. That's totally fair. Yeah. Doesn't Vin Diesel have a twin? brother two. Oh, really? But not identical. That's so wild to think of two Vin Diesel's at once.

That I don't know if I would want. Well, I don't even want one Vin Diesel. I don't know. I'm here for it, but I would be for us straight to be Vin Diesel's brother, but not identical. That's true. Oh, my God, Vin Diesel's fraternal twin. That is a curse of sorts. Yeah. In any case, yes, there's one brother who wears blue and that's smoke and the other one wears red and that's stack they have just arrived back in mississippi from chicago we learn that they were bootleggers there they have a lot of cash from that and they meet up with a white man named hogwood who sells them an old sawmill which they plan to turn into a juke joint and the twins tell this guy hogwood like our business here's done if we ever see you or your clan buddies on this property again will kill them parentheses more foreshadowing then smoke

and stack link up with sammy who's their cousin and who's going to play guitar at the juke joint that night and they start getting everything else ready to open the joint which they're going to do that night and I was like oh my god that's the fastest turnaround I've ever heard of it's a pop up it's a pop up yeah yeah I mean and they put together something incredible so good on them I would not have been able to turn that around so quickly but I did I did enjoy sort of the thought experiment of if literally one person says no to the twins throughout this day, the plan is pretty thoroughly fucked. But they just, I mean, it's two Michael B. Jordans. They know no one's going to say no. Exactly. You can't say now. Yeah. Yes. So smoke goes into a market owned by

a couple, Bo and Grace Chow played by Yao and Li Jun Li to place an order for catfish and to commission a sign for the juke joint. Meanwhile, Stack and Sammy go to the train station to hire another musician named Slim, played by Delroy Lindo. Also, no complaints on this site. Great casting. I love Delroy Lindo. The voice alone. Yeah, truly, like, oh, God, he's just the best.

I used to, I wrote fan fiction about him in college, which, wow, is a lore reveal. Like, erotic fanfic? No way. It was literally just fanfiction about like, what do I think he's up to at his house? Amazing. It was for like a class, but anyways. That's a beautiful excuse. I was just waiting for an excuse to speculate on what he's up to.

And he was also, I think he should have won an Oscar four to five bloods and didn't. And I will not let that go anytime soon. Anyways. And you shouldn't. They hire him and they hire a man. called cornbread to be the bouncer of the juke joint. Also, Stack runs into a woman named Mary, played by Haley Steinfeld. She's a former lover of his who he grew up with and who seems like he ditched back in Chicago. Like you do. Like you do. So their relationship is a bit

contentious at the moment. Meanwhile, smoke pays a visit to a former lover of his, a woman named Annie, played by Wanmi Musaku. They have a lot of history as well. Some of it is painful, including a baby they had together that died. And Smoke shows up. He wants to reconnect. He asks Annie if she'll cook at the juke joint tonight. And then they start smooching and having sex with each other. A very horny movie. As we're being, I mean, all of the, we'll talk about this in the discussion as well, but just the costuming in this movie is unreal.

Everyone looks, I mean, I'm assuming period appropriate, but also just so profoundly hot, it's wild. As every character is introduced, you're just like, This is the greatest outfit I've ever seen. Which is very, very true for the period, I feel in African-American culture to just always be dressed to the nines. Yeah. The tailoring. And this, I hope this wins her another Oscar, but this is, Ryan Coogler worked with her on Black Panther and Black Panther Waconda Forever, Ruth E. Carter.

And she won Oscars for costume design on both Black Panthers. and she should win again. Yeah. Everyone looks amazing. Very hot. Yes. So they're smooching. And then...

And sexing. And sexing. Yeah. Then we cut to a mysterious white man who seems to fall out of the sky and his skin is burning. Again, like they do. Like white people do. This is period appropriate. this is just a universal truth there were cursed irish vampires falling from the sky at this time

he approaches a house and he tells the white couple who live there who are clan members that a group of native men tried to rob and kill him so the couple takes him in now the chok-ta people show up a little while later and tell the couple that they're pursuing someone very dangerous, someone who's not what he seems, because it turns out this man, Remick, played by Jack O'Connell, is a vampire who attacks the couple and turns them into vampires. Yes. And speaking of quick turnarounds, the vampire incubation period in this movie seems... It's very sweat.

A matter of minutes. Yeah. Yeah. As long as the plot needs. Yeah. And if there was any question, if this couple is wild... they are sooner to let a man who's obviously lying and covered in like sores and boils into their home than have a conversation with a native person yeah and that's called white privilege

yeah yes it is covered in sores and boils and somehow got in the door yeah and had to be invited in which they do yeah that it seems to be the one rule of vampires here although you got the garlic you got the classics the classics the garlic the sunlight yeah yeah they retain the classic yeah the steak through the heart yeah for sure right then we cut to the juke joint it's opening up people are arriving the clientele is entirely black aside from mary who does have some black ancestry she says that her maternal grandfather was half black which i believe is also true for Haley Steinfeld as well. I think so, yeah.

Though she passes as a white woman. We also meet Perlene. I think we've already met her. She's played by Jamie Lawson. And she and Sammy are vibing. Then Sammy starts playing his guitar and singing the blues. And then we get like the sequence of the movie, the one where we see people playing music.

and dancing from the past, from the future, with the same voiceover from the beginning, suggesting that Sammy has this spiritual musical talent that was previously discussed. And this music seems to attract that vampire man, Remick, with him is the couple that he just turned into vampires. This is Joan and Bert. And they all show up outside,

the juke joint saying that they're musicians and they want to come in and eat and drink and play music cornbread the bouncer and smoke and stack and everyone are very suspicious of them but smoke and stack and some of the others kind of like weigh the pros and cons of letting them in of course not realizing that they're vampires well and also like they make it disturbingly clear that they're like will be right over there so they're also like leering nearby lingering yeah and they realize that they could use these white people's money so mary suggests she goes and talks to them to kind of find out what their deal is and they're weird and creepy and it seems like they're about to attack her and they i think that like they specifically prey on the

fact that her mom recently died because that was the one thing that i was the one thing that i was like, why did we learn that detail? I didn't remember. And then it seems like that is like one of the tricks. Then a short time later, Mary goes back inside via cornbread saying, like, go ahead on in, which is how she's able to get back inside because she's a vampire now and she seduces stack. And they go into a room and start having some more sex. But, oh, no. No, she bites him and sucks his blood, which smoke walks in on. So he shoots Mary a bunch of times, but she gets right back up on account of being undead and runs off into the night.

And everyone's like, what the fuck was that all about? People rush to Stax Aid, but he dies, kind of in the way that vampires do. and smoke is devastated they send all of the patrons home though people like sammy annie slim perline beau and grace stay behind but grace wants to leave so beau goes out to pull the car around meanwhile cornbread had gone off to use the bathroom and he's attacked by the vampires and he comes back he's acting weird he wants to be let in And then Stack, whose body they locked in the room, starts trying to get out, pretending like he's not a vampire.

I love the shots where they're having like a conference outside being like, I don't know. Should we? I don't know. I don't know. And then you cut back to him and he's like going full vampire mode at this like wild angle. It's just, it's awesome. He's like, I'm not a vampire. What are you talking about?

And he's like, guys, come on. Come on. What's the worst that could happen? happen. So he bursts out and runs out into the night after Annie throws pickle garlic on him because she realizes they're dealing with vampires, which means the plan is to stay in the juke joint until sunrise and gather whatever weapons they can in case they need to fight. meanwhile the vampires have turned basically everyone who was at the juke joint so it's like several dozen people into vampires and they're all doing an irish jig back inside annie has everyone eat a clove of garlic

to make sure that no one is a secret vampire and it turns out they're not but then beau comes back around acting very vampiry and Remick is right behind him saying that he knows everything that Bo knows because the vampires kind of share like a collective consciousness and Remick says

that Sammy is the one he's after he wants to absorb this musical gift so that he can travel through time so to speak and be brought back to his people Remick is also carrying on about how this vampire group is all about like free love and fellowship and family. But actually their vibes are very sinister and Remick threatens to go after Bo and Grace's daughter Lisa if they don't let the vampires inside. So Grace starts freaking out and screams like, come on it.

you motherfuckers effectively inviting the vampires inside so they rush in a battle ensues vampire stack goes after annie and bites her so smoke has to kill her because he had promised that he would drive a stake through her heart before she turned because annie is a pragmatist yes to her core she is like let's stop being sentimental this is a vampire movie which is always my favorite character in the vampire movie right right um so then stack goes after smoke so that they can be immortal vampire brothers together and so smoke has to decide if he's going to kill his brother can he do it cut to remick descending on sammy and he's about to turn him but just then smoke gets remick with a stake in the heart and saves Sammy,

and then the sun comes up and they watch as Remick and the other vampires burst into flames and perish. But the battle is not over, because earlier Remick had revealed that Hogwood, the white man who sold the brothers the juke joint, is the grand dragon of the KKK, and he intended to kill everyone at this establishment. so smoke gears up for another fight as he reflects on the day before we get this montage of all the work that went into opening up the juke joint we're also seeing sammy go into his father's church the same scene that we saw in the beginning of the movie and then the clan arrives at the juke joint and smoke starts shooting them with his artillery of rifles and

machine guns, and he kills them all, but is shot in the process and starts bleeding out and seeing a vision of Annie breastfeeding their baby, signifying that he's dying and joining them in the afterlife. Then there's an epilogue where Sammy, now an old man in 1992 in Chicago, performs regularly at this club and he's also buddy guy very important detail yes what it incredible I think one of the most inspired cameos of our time also known as shana's dead yes for those in the know and late one night at the club he has two visitors stack and mary because it turns out that Smoke never killed his brother Stack, as long as Stack promised to never go after Sammy, which he kept his promise. And Stack does offer to turn Sammy into a vampire to make him immortal.

But Sammy's like, no thanks. I'll just die the regular way. And then he's like, but before all that horrible stuff happened that night, that was the best day of my life. You? You? And Stack is like, same. That was the last time I saw my brother. And for those few hours at the juke joint, we were free. And that's the note that the movie ends on. So let's take another quick break. And we'll come back to discuss.

Here we go. Hey, I'm Kelpen. And on my new podcast, here we go again. We'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics, and pop culture. And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions. Like, are we heading towards another financial crash,

like in 2008? Is non-monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lily Singh, and Bill Nye. When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong. Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now, because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here we go again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday. A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market.

What does a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy? Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outside. size indicators of inflation. What's behind Elon Musk's trillion-dollar payout? There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back. He's putting politics aside. He's left the White House. And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't?

CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure. Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I live below a cult leader, and I fear I've angered her. Well, wait a minute, Sophia Adia knows she's a cult leader. Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon.

This person writes, My neighbor has been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals, and now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult? Hold up, Sophia. A real-life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person,

contractors are tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with their ceiling, and her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them ASAP. She did! And now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time. So, do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everybody? This is Snacks from the Trap Nerds podcast, and we're bringing you the horror every week all October alone.

Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill. Me and Tony Bringing Back Fire Team on the Left for Dead 2. And we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies. And figure out why black people always got to die first. The umbral reliquary invites any and all fooling, brave enough, to peruse its many curiosities. But take heed, all sales are final. Weekly horror side quests written and narrated by yours truly.

With a full episode read and a commentary special. And we will cap it off with horror movie battle royale. Jason versus Freddie. Michael Myers versus the 80 thing with the little tongue muster. October, we're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Trapner's podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. Dahlia, in the grand tradition of the show, where would you like to start the discussion?

What's sticking out to you? Oh. Oh, there are so many places to go. Yeah. I do. Every time I'm like, oh, is this a main thing to do to our guests? Oh, a little bit, a little bit. There are so many different things to choose in this film because it's so multi-layered.

I guess one thing I would say, it does, it did strike me as odd because, you know, you have the grand montage scene that I think we all took home with us in our hearts. but I did expect there to be more to come of that and a bit more exploration of that theme. So that struck me as a little strange. You mean the scene where it's kind of like we're traveling through time and seeing all of the musicians? Yeah, and we just do it once. We just establish that it is a power that he has

that he just happens to have. I don't know. That it's particularly utilized to any meaningful impact aside from, you know, incidentally attracting vampires. Vampires. Yeah. Yeah, right, because there is mention that, like, Remick says, I want to absorb this power so that I can, like,

access people from my past because it's not super explicit how old he is slash how long he's been a vampire. but he makes reference to living in like pre-colonized by England Ireland and I think it's supposed to go back to I was looking into

because I was trying to figure out like yeah this this movie's relationship with like time and generational trauma is like you're saying Dahlia it's like really really complex and also not at least for me I had to like do outside research to understand

like how much time was being covered, because I guess canonically, the Irish vampire is from, like, the 1100s. Like, he is ancient, which is, like, interesting, but we don't, I don't think we technically know that. Right. Yeah, I agree with you. I, like, I think that it's such a, like, it's, it's the image that everyone takes home. And I feel like the closest you get to a meaningful payoff is buddy guy, is that, like, he's,

He is the character, which I do think is good, right? It's like he is the character who lives on and like, I really, there is, I don't know, I usually absolutely cannot stand post-credit scenes, but this one's amazing. Yeah, it's one of the very few justified ones. Right, where it's like he's turning down eternal life and I feel like, or I don't know, the way I was like seeing the undercurrent to that is, first of all, that's a curse. We've all seen a movie. We know that.

but also that like he is immortal in a way because he like lived to be able to make art and like contribute to culture and like keep the legacy of the blues music he was playing at the juke joint continued so it's like he doesn't need to live forever and that's like part of what is so sad about the vampires is they didn't get to live long enough to to have that I don't know yeah and I think it also in part this is very esoteric, but it does also, in a way, play into an African sense of time where death is not definitively the end of life. It's just a transition into a much larger past. Yeah, I just, this is very scholarly of me, but I watched an Instagram reel. What? Yes. Watch out, everyone, that was a woman talking about the African concept of time, and she's

explaining that it's the idea that time is comprised of events that you experience in the present and events that have been experienced in the past, and because it's impossible to experience future events that haven't happened yet, the concept of the future is... The future doesn't necessarily exist. Right. Which I really like. But as far as the concept of time past, present, and future in the movie, the sequence in the juke joint where time is being transcended via the music, I guess I didn't think

that much about it because I was just like, wow, this is so cool. And then I forgot to do my job and think harder. But no, no. cool scene that it achieved its goal clearly it sticks with everyone yeah i mean it is yeah because it's like you're covering so i mean again it's like i don't know enough history in general to say like what the time period is but it definitely goes into the past into the future i like that um it also felt very cool that with bow and grace like their culture was represented near them and then there were the creepy white lurkers right outside

who, I don't know, I feel like you're not supposed to understand in that moment, but it's like part of what makes them so horrible is like they want to have that, but they can't conceive of having that without taking it from someone. Yeah. And I suppose we may as well dive into the cultural and racial component of it. I think it would be irresponsible of us not to, obviously. Right. Wait, what do you mean? No. Yeah. I do think it's interesting that they did include the Chinese couple, which was not a detail that I would have personally thought to include, but it is apparently very important historically the connection between the African American and Asian American communities, particularly in the South at that time. I didn't know that. Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot about, like, this specific time in this specific place. I knew it was the time of the great migration. And, but I wasn't aware of, I mean, I know that this is like a failure of public schooling to some extent is how diverse these areas were and how diverse these communities were. And actually seeing that brought to life in a movie is like, critical because there's going to be kids who are being failed in schools right now who will see this movie and you know there's it has a role in it speaking of being very scholarly

I read a piece on medium wow I'm just getting all my information I was like wait what is the one thing more scholarly than real aside from Wikipedia of course scholarly journal yes next thing you're going to like drop a TikTok on us I mean look there's things to be learned I feel like that's foreshadowing wait are we going to hit a TikTok we'll get there we'll get there maybe maybe no but this piece I found to be

really interesting by a writer named Brian Vaden who broke down the motif of money and power and control in the movie and how all of these things relate to each other I'll just quote this

quote we also meet an Asian family running multiple convenience stores that serve both black and white customers on either side of a segregated street. Its placement in the film is highly intentional. It shows how some communities figured out how to navigate and survive between two systems, how to offer services and goods to both without fully belonging to either. It's a quiet commentary on strategy, assimilation, and the complicated intersections of race and commerce in the post-slavery south. unquote, which the point being that Ryan Coogler made so many intentional choices when it comes to

the motifs present in the movie, because I do want to talk a lot more about money and currency and negotiation and like. Yeah, because this movie very firmly says capitalism will not save us. Correct. And I just, Ryan Coogler's awesome. Like he both says that. directs billion dollar movies and you're like yeah it's working for me i don't know i it's complicated i didn't realize because i didn't watch much of the press junket for this

movie but that like ryan cougler gave a series of really great interviews uh about various aspects of the movies and they're like and there's so much to talk about but that this was like a pretty personal uh story for him uh because he's famously from oakland but but But he had his grandfather, or no, sorry, his uncle, he was originally from Mississippi. And so a lot of this story was inspired by both the music and the history that he heard from his uncle when he was very young and, you know, says basically that he didn't really think that much about what this period of time would have actually been like in the way that no one is actually really listening to their uncles until it's too late, kind of.

thing um but that he realized that he had this sort of wealth of experience through his own family to talk about this period of time in the south um his wife zinzie coogler who i also learned through researching this movie that their first date was to see bring it on in oakland which i love well wait like back in 99 when it came out Yeah, they've been together since they were, like, young. It's very, very sweet. So that's just a fun fact. But that both of their families were really helpful in sort of, like, building out the historical

specificity. Ryan Coogler was thinking about his uncles. He was thinking about the generation before them. And I guess that Zinzie Coogler also had living elderly relatives who had also lived in the South and this time and that this was, like, very much what he was pulling from. And you can, like, feel that, like, historical specificity here, even in the middle of a vampire movie, which is, like, who knows how he did that. And I do guess this is the point where I, because I want you to give the synopsis first, but I will now dive into some of my deeper connections with the film. Yeah, please.

Similarly, my maternal grandfather is from the Mississippi Delta and did move to change. Chicago as part of the northern migration also may or may not have allegedly had some ties with the mafia. Allegedly. It happens. It happens. Allegedly. We're not judging.

Well, as this movie explores, because of the cycle of poverty and because of racism and class disparity. And also, like many black people, particularly of my generation, I had some sketchy uncles who I absolutely adored but they were not good role models sadly big bad bill who went on to be known as sweet William passed away before he could show me the sights there were floating quotations there for listeners at home and I feel like the sites are are alluded to in this film as well for those of you who know but yeah so in a lot of ways watching the film It did hit on a lot of my own personal family background.

So it's very personal, very real to me. Definitely touched on a lot of themes of my childhood and just the legacy that has been passed down through my family. The other side of my mom's family is also Creole. So we do also have an entire section of the family that we don't speak to because, they were able to pass as white and chose to do so. And, I mean, that might relate to a conversation we can have at some point about Mary, the Haley-Steinfeld character, but, yeah, there's so much to dive into. Yeah.

Can we talk about the motif slash theme of class, money, currency, trade, and negotiation? Yeah. So, as we mention in the recap, most of the characters we see in this movie are black people trapped in poverty. There are only a few generations removed from slavery. Many of the characters we see are sharecroppers working on plantations. We see them use currency called plantation script. Some of that's like paper money, some of its wooden coins. this is currency that was paid to plantation workers, sharecroppers,

that could only be spent at plantation run stores. So it was basically just a way to trap black sharecroppers in the cycle of poverty and keep them in debt. As well as, I mean, I feel like there were a series of intentional shots of, and this is like kind of demonstrated towards the beginning between Sammy and the twins, where Sammy, like many young people, is focused on being like, I just have to get out of where I am. And if I can get out of where I am, I'm going to be in a better place

because anywhere is better than here, right? Like the character we recognize. And the twins who have just spent a lot of time in Chicago, they have the sort of wisdom to be like, okay, but. And then as they're having that conversation, they're surrounded by how, even though, you know, chattel slavery is technically abolished, they are passing through majority black chain gangs. They're passing through prison labor.

We're meeting sharecroppers who are being ripped off right and left. Like the whole environment of this movie is intentionally reminding you that white supremacy is finding a way regardless. You do bring up a good point where the montage of traveling through time doesn't necessarily have to be dissected more since it is the theme of the entire film, since, you know, it is ostensibly a period piece, but the reverberations of that period are still very much present even right now. Yeah, and there's that scene where Sammy is, you know, he's telling his cousins, I want to leave. this area I want to go to Chicago he seems to think that because there are no Jim Crow laws there that maybe

he won't have to deal with racism and the twins are like that is incorrect and they've been able to to some extent escape this cycle of poverty via you know bootlegging and organized crime

and things like that. Well it's also like is it stealing if it's from fucking scumbag white supremacist it isn't It does not. But it does feel, I don't know, let me know what you both think. It feels like at the beginning, the twins' feeling is that money is the only means of escape. And then the movie kind of dissects why that is not true. Yeah.

And really what the theme is touching on is this phenomenon of black capitalism and the assumption that we can wealth our way out of white supremacy. Yeah, which is like a, I mean, it is, I mean, I know everyone who made this movie is well aware of this, but it does feel in spite of taking place 92 years ago, still very, like, we're asking the same questions now. Absolutely. Yeah, because there are various conversations about freedom, how to achieve that as a black person in the Jim Crow South. and there's a line where Smoke is talking to Annie, and he's saying something like, I've been all over the world. We also learned that Smoke and Stack were World War I veterans

and were presumably overseas in Europe. See, this is on my public school education. Not to say private would be better. This is on my education. I wrote down World War II, and now that you say that, it was like 19, No, that would not have been possible. Got it. Got it. Anyway, smoke says that he's been all over the world and he's never seen magic or ghosts or demons just power.

And the only thing that can get you that is money. First of all, he spoke too soon because he will be seeing demons very shortly. Second, yes, money does give people access to power. But he seems to be of the mindset that, again, he and his community will achieve. achieve liberation via capitalism, but we know that capitalism is one of the major things that prevents black liberation or liberation of any kind. And again, you know, it's important to note that the reason the vampires are essentially invited in is because the money that is being used by the black people, it's ostensibly not good enough you can't keep the business open on the black dollar alone you also need the white dollar and naturally you have the uh we're going to go ahead and continue saying white passing

but also let's face it white um yeah the white woman who has this greater proximity and comfort with white culture who then feels that it is safe and ostensibly perhaps even her duty as sort of a white savior figure, you know, just perhaps incidentally named Mary, um, to go out and bring in the white dollar to ostensibly rescue or lift up the black community. Right. And it's also gold coins that Mr. Vampire has. So it's, it's this sort of almost like universal. accepted form of currency.

But yeah, because we see a man wanting to pay for his drink with the wooden nickels that he received as payment on the plantation. And smoke is very reticent to accept them and stack annie and push back, say, like, we need to accept the money that they have so that we can cultivate a space where the patrons feel like they belong here it's for them their money is good here but there's like all this kind of push and pull on what currency is acceptable and and worth noting the earlier scene in the movie where annie's in her store selling groceries to children for random scraps of paper yeah this movie it has such a careful relationship with colonized people's

across a very wide spectrum, right, where we, I think that the colonized people that we don't get to know are the native community at the very beginning, the Choctaw characters. The Choctaw people we meet in one scene, which I don't think is like, you know, a malicious choice at all, but it is, it does sort of hit the point home that because the Choctaw community is introduced very intentionally in relation. to this fucking clan couple that it would have been I think like one of the notes

I have about this movie is that it would have been very possible to introduce a Choctaw character who we get to know and who we get to know in relation to everyone else in the movie because I think that

this movie we know is capable of presenting a very diverse and specific community. I mean we know that because the people that are trapped in the juke joint. We have the white woman in the form of Mary.

We have a majority black clientele and management, and we have the Chinese family. And, yeah, one of the things that I wish and could have happened is to meaningfully include the Choctaw characters, because they do appear intentionally, but not in a way that we know who any character's name is or... Yeah, they're just sort of these vague, magical people

off to the side. We know about the vampire and are chasing him but we don't know how they know about or what the backstory is there. And it's a shame because it's like this is a movie that is open to magic.

It is a vampire movie. And so it's like not bringing in the Choctaw characters felt like a clear missed opportunity. But the other the other communities we get to know here, I mean, I

think that there was a lot made of and I have a couple quotes here about the choice of presenting the black characters in relation to this Irish vampire, because the Irish choice is

very intentional. Very intentional and like, couldn't be they are doing the dance. And so as an Irish I was like let's let's find out more and Ryan Coogler I mean he had a lot to say about this choice

and so I just wanted to share sort of his expansion on why he chose that because I think it has a lot to say about how white communities who have been colonized make a big deal about having been colonized but ultimately align with whiteness

over other communities that have been oppressed in the same way. So Ryan Coogler told Indie Wire, I'm obsessed with Irish folk music, my kids are obsessed with it. My first name is Irish.

I think it's not known how much crossover there is between African American culture and Irish culture and how much that stuff's loved in our community. It was very important that our master vampire in this movie was unique and specific as the situation was. It was important to me that he was

old but also that he came from a time that pre-existed these racial definitions so that he would be extremely odd and that it would all seem odd to him but also that he would see it for what it was and offer a sweet deal if that makes sense and that the music was just as beautiful so i mean and there's a number of other interviews he gave to this but that was how i learned basically that the Irish vampire was intended to be from the 1100s when the English first colonized Ireland, where this character is, I think, intended to be targeting Sammy coming from the place of, I want to steal your culture and your music because I want it to bring me back to my culture. Instead of anything else, it is from a place of violent assimilation, which I feel like comes through in this movie through Christianity and religion.

Like the role that religion had in this movie, I don't think I fully appreciated it at first. I have a whole spiel on that. Yeah. I mean, pre the vampire attack, there are many moments of this movie that sent her Black Joy. there's this focus on community and music and dance and fun and letting loose and sexual pleasure and things basically things that Sammy's pastor father would consider a sin and he very explicitly says this to Sammy where he's like don't hang around those sinners that's the name of the movie and then everyone cheered in the crowd

He guess we're like, yes, that's what we bought the ticket for. But this ignores the concept of joy as resistance and rest and relaxation as resistance. And music and art as resistance. Exactly. Because I feel like that is what that whole scene, the quote unquote, like the scene is about is about how black art and black culture. has a role in joy and resistance. Absolutely. And I feel like a lot of, you know, organized Western religion misconstrues these acts of joy

and rest and relaxation and music and sexual pleasure and things like that as sin. And of course, there's white supremacy very entrenched in that in terms of when white people do things, it's considered art and culture. when black people do things, it's seen as witchcraft or hedonism. So obviously there's a huge double standard there. But my point is that rest and art and music and joy as resistance is often underestimated, but it is very important and can be very effective. But then we see the white vampires come in and interfere with this night of joy and rest and music.

and try to steal from this community. But I do want to know that there is complexity to it. Like there is, and I feel we're noting this, but, you know, there is the obvious layer of the vampires are coming in, stealing, but it's more multi-layered than that because Remick is offering actual currency, and Remick is offering to bring. in his music as well.

So there is an exchange. It's not being like, yay segregation. There is a cultural exchange that is attempting to take place. And Remick is offering this ostensibly gift of immortality. Yeah. But at what cost. Right. So there is something being offered.

it's just a steep cost to make that exchange. Which, again, it feels very intentional on Ryan Cougler's part to establish space, like negative space, but space between the KKK and the twins and the black community and the sharecroppers where there are, like he is like getting into all of these shades of gray of like. There are communities of white people who have been displaced from their homelands who have chosen to ultimately align with whiteness, and that is the vampiric quality of them. But they exist in this separate, nefarious space that, I don't know, like I haven't seen very often addressed that there are so many layers to what the character. in this movie are dealing with and that like the vampires are horrible and evil and wrong

and they also are existing in a different reality than other villains in this story. Yeah. They are in fact better than the clan. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like a very low bar to clear but there they are.

Yeah. That relationship I feel like I had never, right, rarely seen made explicit and also the role that relate so getting back to like religion the role that religion has as a colonizing tool where there is like a very specific interaction between I believe stack they're both Michael B Jordan um and and the red one or the blue one I don't know one of them was a vampire already um oh stack Stack is the one who turns into a vampire.

Okay, so smoke. There is an interaction that smoke has with the Irish vampires that felt in retrospect very explicit where they're saying the Lord's prayer and they're saying it very Irishly. They're using trespasses instead of sins, even though it's the movie sinners. And then he says explicitly, like, I learned, you know, I'm summarizing, but like, I learned that prayer from the people who colonized us, I hate them so much, but I still find comfort in the prayer. And then he weaponizes it against smoke. And like that sort of level of all of the aggressions that have to happen over a period of hundreds of thousands of years to get to the

point where no one can align with each other. And that these communities that should actually be able to help each other won't and it's because the displaced Irish communities are aligning with whiteness because it makes them safer and that's like what Mary's character boils down to exactly it's essentially the safety of proximity to one's own oppressor absolutely yeah yeah and the invitation to become the oppressor absolutely which most people will accept because it will give them some sense of power, even if it's not actual power, they'll perceive it as, oh, now I have power over others. Yeah, but sinners explicitly makes it power that is tainted and a curse. Mm-hmm. Correct. Well, speaking of the characters who are women, I wish in general that

women were more meaningfully integrated into the story. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Yes. Let's talk about it. Who was to go first? I'm glad that we fully praise the film first. The movie is doing a lot of things right.

No doubt about it. This was not one of them. Agree. Very reductive archetypes in my view. you know you have and i'm going to mess this up which is why i kept my wikipedia window open hey we we all have we all have exactly make no mistake grace so we have grace so we have grace and annie are both maternal figures which of course gives them a special uh sort of status Perlene, sort of your rudimentary, undeveloped Jezebel archetype.

Yeah, Perlaine especially pained me because the performance is incredible and there and, like, you just cannot justify her beyond Sammy, and that sucks. Yeah. The one thing I'll say about her that I did appreciate is that we see a representation on screen of a woman receiving oral sex, which we almost. never see. It's true. I wanted to get off, but that's still in relation to Sammy.

To Sammy, yes. Yeah, exactly. But you could also argue that it's like this movie goes out of its way to show female pleasure in a way that most movies don't bother to. And specifically black female pleasure. Yes. And, you know, I think it's also important to note that Annie is not this petite little Hollywood style vixen, but still absolutely given sexual power within the context of the film.

Absolutely. To the point where it took me by surprise that she is in a sex scene, just because I'm so used to sex scenes in movies being between two very thin people. Obviously, I'm not surprised that anyone would be sexually attracted to her. Like, one me, Musaku is a gorgeous person. Yeah. She's hot. But I was surprised that there was a sex scene with a plus-size woman.

Yes, a plus-sized black woman with Michael B. Jordan. Exactly, because most movies cannot conceive of the idea that a thin, lean man who's as handsome as Michael B. Jordan, for example, would be sexually attracted to a fat person. Yeah. It shouldn't be revolutionary. and yet in American cinema definitely is yeah absolutely yeah I mean and Andy's character in general I mean again it's I think that there are a lot of missed opportunities with women in general but Annie is my favorite character in the movie yeah I think there is there is so much to love about her even though there could and should have been more but I really appreciate it I mean

And I feel like her relationship to hoodoo does so much to sort of bring us into the world of the movie in a way that is very historically accurate. They're living in the South. Hoodoo is spirituality that was originally developed by enslaved people in the South that both honors the time and place we're in. and also is like something about her that gives her authority. And she is not dismissed for this. She is honored for it. That and other reasons, but it is one of the major factors that whichever Michael B. Jordan

she had a relationship with, I struggle with it. Smoke. Smoke. I can't believe you can't tell Michael B. Jordan's apart. I know. That's on me. One is blue and one is red. No, cancel me, cancel me.

No, but that it's something that smoke defers to her for, which is another, I mean, like, I feel like her character, even going on off on what we were just talking about, that she is the character that is most connected to spirituality and is never dismissed for it as so often we see very spiritual, witchier characters dismissed for. she is right she is by a wide margin the most pragmatic character in the story and genuinely moral yes absolutely where i mean and i think like a clear demonstration of that that i hadn't noticed to like my last viewing was that she is both uh someone who when the irish vampire freaks ask well why was mary allowed into the juke joint Annie is the first one to say because she's a part of our family but Annie is also the first to realize that Mary is a vampire now and we have to get her the fuck out like she

she's the only person in the entire plot who is like able to see things for what they are and also still love and feel and I just I don't know I appreciate her character so much the performance is amazing

and yeah, I just love Annie. Yeah, somehow captures a white spectrum of black womanhood despite her limited screen time and dialogue. Yes, that's the thing. It's like they're, and I don't hold it against the character that like the last time we see her, she is very firmly a mother. And we know enough about her to know that that is not how her character is defined.

But there's so much we don't know about her. We're like we really only get a glimpse of how clearly, I mean, like when we meet her and she is like doing that interaction with the child when smoke comes back, we get a clear indication that she's very important to her community. But we don't really get to see very much of that. Yeah. Yeah, she gets to be mother, savior, and martyr, but not a lot of time to be a person. And that fucking sucks. Yeah, yeah. Well, when you put it that way, it sucks because we know her for such a short time. And it seems like, like, I mean, it's like, it would have been great to see her with a close friend, you know? just someone who she was not actively feeling either uncomfortable around or beefing with because I feel like those are those are the characters who she's mostly put around it's like someone that she has reason to feel a little uncomfortable with yeah also when she I think the first time

I saw this when she is bitten by Stack stack's the one who tries to turn her and then smoke her lover has to kill her and he honors her wish of killing her before she turns into a vampire when she is killed my brain immediately went to like oh no like is she being fridged but i think this maybe doesn't really count since pretty much every other character in the movie dies as well yes so it is very thorough in the massacre but pretty much everyone but same and then the like immortal couple of Stack and Mary when they show up in 1992, they're still around. But it does also always bring me a special joy to see black women survive cinema.

Yes. And we definitely do not get that in this film. We don't get that here. No, which it is really frustrating because we meet two, like Annie and Perlene are both such strong contenders and not to pick one or three the other. But how Annie doesn't get out of this movie, I will never understand. Exactly. She's the only person with any sense from the start.

She has all the knowledge. She knows everything about... She is the best equipped to survive the movie. Right. Which, again, the movie contextualizes with her background as a hoodoo practitioner. I also feel like this is one of the few American movies, at least, that doesn't paint voodoo or hoodoo or any... African diasporic religions as some kind of like evil sorcery because that's what most of them do we talked about this a lot on the princess and the frog episode yes yeah that the villain

oh yeah yeah they're like the villain of the princess and the frog that one was egregious yeah there's a whole song about it but it seems like there was research that went into this movie about, you know, who do practice and healers. I'll share a quote from WOMNI Mosaku in W magazine. She was interviewed and asked about the role. You promised us a TikTok video. Excuse me. I'm working on it.

In the meantime, she says this, quote, that was the key for me with Annie. her anchor and the source of her power, which is her faith and love. Hoodoo is a practice that I didn't know anything about, so we had a hoodoo consultant, and I did a ton of research. Just being in New Orleans, I met so many people who are either initiated or have family members who are. I would go to House of Hoodoo. I looked into the Voodoo Museum and Voodoo Authentica. I met with witch doctors, and I read books about the Eretius and their powers. Learning that history as a Yoruba woman myself, when I knew nothing about it at all,

really opened up something for me. It's a part of the message of the film, knowing who you're from, being in touch with your ancestry, and learning how their purpose is now manifested in you. I really appreciate that, like, in a movie that is going out of its way to discuss religion and spirituality that who do spirituality is separated from the religions that are forced upon

colonized and oppressed people because again I think that again in a lesser movie any spirituality would be painted as a very broad brush as all religion and spirituality is inherently oppressive when the reality

is your personal relationship to it and also where does it come from in your in your lineage and and sinners is careful to delineate who do is a spirituality and a practice that was created by enslaved peoples that came from Africa and and built upon and whereas when we meet the Irish vampires they're like so there's this thing called Catholicism we hate it but here it is yeah and like they're really relationship is far less personal and all that to say I mean like there is so much going on with Andy's character and I just feel like it wasn't fully she deserves her own film there should be a sequel that focuses on Annie is there any reason Sammy and Annie couldn't have made it because I

understand that Sammy is not just himself as a character but he represents black art and black culture and personhood and moving forward and all of all of these really important things that the movie is talking about but like why not annie she she should have made it no yeah yeah it takes us a while to meet her as well and you know i know i know that you know the story has a lot to accomplish and it is focused on the michael b jordan's but i do feel like there was room to include her more in the story. I mean, I do appreciate that she is given, she is the character with all of the relevant knowledge

on how to survive a vampire attack. And I also thought it was interesting that at first she thinks they are haints. She uses the word haint several times, and I had to look that up because I wasn't familiar with what that was, but it's a term in the Gula Gichi language, and then I had to look up what that is.

This movie gave me an excuse to learn about a new culture. And I appreciate that all because she says hate. And I was like, what is that? Absolutely. I mean, and it's, again, like, we talk a lot about, like, it is not the job of any one movie to do this, that, or the other, but it is a benefit of, movie like Santeroos that it stands to introduce

it covers a lot of ground like kind of an absurd amount of ground so much I also thought I mean another woman who we sort of get to know throughout this is grace who while I think she is a very proactive distinct character is primarily defined through her relationship as a wife and a mother

and... Correct. Right. Where it's like, Legion Lee gives an unreal performance. And I also think, and this is like possibly my own like short-sightedness. But I can't think of many examples in like mainstream like blockbustery media

where I feel like very often Asian American characters don't have regional accents for some reason. That is true. For sure. And this was like, one of the few examples I could think of in a big blockbuster movie where we have Asian American characters who have very clearly, regionally distinct accents and a clear relationship to their culture of origin. And like, I don't know, I thought it was wonderful. That's good attention to detail. Thank you. It is. But, like, Grace, it's a great performance. I like her character. But,

again it did feel like it was hanging a little aggressively on the wife like am I wife or am my mother versus anything else because it does feel like her ultimate question is do I go with my husband and the reason she turns against her husband is because of her daughter and we don't really get to know too much about her outside of that and again it just feels like a missed opportunity to flesh out that character more as a person that exists as a singular being outside of those roles. Exactly. Yeah.

And a similar vibe with Herlene as the, you know, necessary sexual liberator of Sammy or whatever. It just seemed very odd. And I don't feel like anything else was explored with her. as a person or character at all. Yeah. And on the one hand, because I was thinking about this right before we started, I'm like, I'm sure some people might justify it as, well, you know, it's 1932, so maybe it's a statement on women's place in society at that time.

But I have a very hard time going with that in the case of Perlene, specifically. as a blues singer. So the majority of blues singers, especially women, blues singers of the era, would have been extremely independent women and by no means defined by their relationship to any man.

Yeah. And we do learn that she is married because she tells Sammy that when he's like kind of approaching her. Yeah, but it might as well have not have happened. I feel like as far as I, like, I feel like that's to establish her as the Jezebel, but it doesn't pay off in any meaningfully way. That's what I mean. And also like, you know, why, why can't she be one of these like musicians who has this kind of mystical abilities to

connect past and present and things like that? But I guess only Sammy gets that. I feel she's very propified. If that's a word. Yes. Right. Yes. And like, and, and again, And it sucks because it's like the performance that Jamie Lawson gives, especially like in the musical portion is unreal. It feels like so many of the things that you would want is there. Like where, okay, she's unhappy in her marriage or like she's whatever. Like she receives pleasure as we see. She goes, awuga. And she comes so hard.

She's like, I have to give a full-blown musical performance. And so many of us have felt that way and been unable to deliver what she does. And so it's very cathartic watching a woman come and be like, and I can show you how it feels. It's great. Like it's so great,

but we don't have enough for her to be a full character because we can really only name two or three things about her. And I feel like so much of that comes down to like, it's a great performance. But what do we know about her? what it comes down to is that this movie is more concerned with the smokestack twins and the Sammy characters and so they're definitely they get most of the screen time and the important narrative arcs and all of that and then that's just part of a larger problem of there just not being enough movies that center black women and especially ones that explore the things themes that this movie explores as far as like black liberation and what does that look like and black joy and what does that look like and things like that and you know it's again we

always say it's not any one movie's job to represent everything and explore everything worth exploring but in this movie it does feel noticeable and also this kind of is a movie about fathers and sons because I mean smoke and stack keep talking about their father and do we even mention Sammy's mom no do we meet her what no we don't even know we don't know if she's living dead existent yeah there's no reference to her at all maybe he felt from the sky we don't know yeah he just came forth from his father's preaching i guess yeah immaculate conception question mark yeah i feel like this an extremely controversial statement but I would be willing to do with one less Michael B. Jordan

in favor of... To have one fully developed female character. I agree. I agree. And I also think, like, I love twin-inspired tension, but we are not exploring... Like, what if he had for Turtle Twin, who was a woman? Like, how would that mix things up?

Fair. I... Yeah, and this is, like, sort of goes back to what my irritation with twin stunt casting is, is that it is like, well, instead of developing other actors or perhaps women, because outside of Lindsay Lohan, most of the doubled actors are men, they're sort of like, what if we had two movie stars instead of one?

And this movie is not above that. Jamie, you're forgetting about the Vanessa Hudgens' Princess Switch movies. I can't believe you would forget this, how dare you? Right. You're right. And I have seen them all. That's so embarrassing. It's okay. Yes. Okay. I retract my statement. But I do feel like sometimes there is a tendency where it's like it's fun and I often like it. But you know, sometimes it's like, well, what if we could have two movie stars instead of one and movie stars tend to be men? And in a movie that has a clear invested interest in intersectionality, I do feel like women receive. the short shrift, which again is like, this movie is doing so much, it cannot do everything.

It's not fair to like lay at the feet of Mike, of not Michael B. Jordan. He's already doing so much of Ryan Coogler to do everything. But of every intersection presented in this movie, it does feel like women are generally, and black women specifically don't have the presence and the complete narrative arcs. that they should have. We get the beginning of a lot of interesting arcs and then they, uh, die. Yes. So, um, I don't love that. I did want to talk about, I know that it's hot and we're going over time, but I did want to just touch on some of the conversation around the release of this movie. Yes, I have stuff on this as well. Because there is a bunch to talk about. I think that a lot of, uh,

of what I remember saying and what demonstrates a clear, persistent racism in the way that not just movies are promoted, but covered is how, I mean, Sinners is, again, it's doing so much because not only is it a major blockbuster tent pole written and directed by a black writer-director,

it is also an original story, which we are seeing so little of and by all metrics it did incredibly this was a writer-director who is beloved who historically has always had majority black casts and the movie did well people went out to see it it broke a number of records i mean you could sort of run down the list of but like specifically in recent history for original stories because we've been really plagued by IP stories for a long, long time. And this felt like, to me at least, that like Ryan Coogler had done his time in the like IP world. And here is this original story that he's writing and directing. And it was doing incredibly. It got a ton of word of mouth marketing. It made

$366 million at the global box office. It was incredible. But what we saw in terms of how it was covered was a lot of like dubiousness of like will sinners be profitable at the box office in ways that you just like would not see four blockbuster tent pulls written directed and starring white actors directors writers I mean it's tradition with black cinema at this point unfortunately true I'm just like asking the most bad faith questions possible to undercut someone's success. Yeah. Phenomenal black directors and writers are always treated like toddlers trying to throw a ball

for the first time. The New York Times and fuck them was very guilty of this, a variety, a few others, but it's also not surprising that this movie was so popular because ample money was spent on marketing to promote this movie, which often does not happen with movies by and about marginalized people because Hollywood will assume that no one wants to see that movie so they don't promote it enough and because it wasn't well promoted no one knows about it and that's why no one saw the movie so it becomes this like self-fulfilling prophecy that has these sinister reasons behind it but this movie was well promoted and a lot of people saw it yeah even when it was well promoted

they're like well should we have done that and you're like yeah everyone loved it Yeah. And then also worth noting is the deal Ryan Coogler was able to get for this movie, which was first dollar gross, which means that he receives a percentage of gross box office revenue starting from like day one of the movie's release. So typically it would be something like the studio waits until the film starts to turn a profit and like make its budget back. but in this case he was making money off the movie from like minute one and that's just like powerful director shit too where it's like and again it's like not something that we it's frustrated because it's not something that we frequently see with black directors that Ryan Coogler did have and was turned against him because there's a number of examples of like well part of the reasons that sinners might not turn a profit at the box office is because the writer-director has this kind of deal. And so it's just like at every single step he's being undercut even when

he is getting the kind of deal that he objectively deserves it's being like painted as a craven selfishness when no one would say that shit to Scorsese or whoever else any white

director. But in spite of all of that, the movie did terrifically at the box office. It broke all of these records for original stories during a time that desperately needs original stories doing well at the box office. There was a fair amount of fan backlash to the way these stories were being covered. There were also a number of directors who spoke out in support of Ryan Coogler and like, why the fuck are we talking about this this way, including weirdly Ben Stiller. I'm like, so Ben, there's us saying Ben Stiller in the Cinder's episode for some reason. And I guess good for that. But I'm at very least glad that

that conversation was being like noticed and had because it was really egregious. Yes, for sure. To go back really quick to the deal that Ryan Coogler made with the studio, in a addition to the first dollar gross, he also got final cut privileges, which is rare, especially for a black director. And then he also got ownership of the copyright of the film 25 years after its release. So basically he will own the rights to this movie again. That is impressive. After 25 years, which is also quite rare. And I just, I hope this sets a precedent for other marginalized filmmakers because the directors

who do tend to get this deal are cis white men. And just shouting at a few other people in the production where while I do, like this movie is ultimately centered on and prioritizing men, we do have, we have

the producers, we have Zinze Kugler, Ryan Kugler's production partner and spouse. They famously saw bring it on together in Oakland. We also have cinematographer, Autumn Durald Arkapaw, who is also from California has been working for some time, mostly with Ryan Cochler and Gia Coppola. I don't know.

But she is historically the first black woman to ever direct a movie for IMAX or to be a director of photography for IMAX, which is both amazing and wild that it took that long and and then also we have I just wanted to again shout out the costumer who is just like a famous figure already but Ruth E. Carter who has won two Oscars with Ryan Coogler I believe she's the first black woman to win for best costume design but she's also a frequent collaborator with Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg movies we've covered that include her work

are love in basketball she also has done do the right thing what's love got to do with it Selma Dolomite is my name coming to America like she's a legend so well I do think that this is

ultimately a joint that focuses on men there is at least a historical priority of Ryan Coogler behind the scenes to include women at the highest levels for sure definitely chose very powerful um women and again even in our critique of their overarching character development the fact that they still had so much power in their presence and time on screen

regardless says a lot absolutely yeah that's pretty much all i had does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about that's that's all I add yeah I think we cover it quite a bit it's true we're all drenched in sweat and I feel like we've fully had the discourse um yeah does this movie pass the bettel test I think maybe on a technicality once or twice but we really don't have a lot of women in conversation about not either various Michael B. Jordans or vampires that are men, I think, in general. Yeah. It's a lot of men talking to each other.

About man business. Yes. About man stuff. It is very little women interacting with each other. Little women? Yes. Honestly, this is another movie where I forgot to pay attention to Bechtel test passing. I think that it technically does, but like, I don't know.

Like, I'm not going to be like sinners. I can't believe. Like, this movie is doing so, so much. Exactly. But women do kind of fall into the rear view in terms of, like, their relationships with, like, their characters and their relationships with each other does feel like a big missed opportunity. Which brings us to the Bechtelcast nipple scale in which we rate the movie zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'll go with four. Again, the movie left some things to be desired when it comes to the black women characters,

but as we've discussed, this film accomplishes a lot of great things. And I particularly love vampire movies, horror movies, genre movies in general, that center marginalized people and communities because so much Hollywood genre film focuses on cis-hat white men. So it's very refreshing to not see that. So four nipples and I'm giving them to Annie, Perlene, Grace, and then one to the music, which slaps so fucking hard in this movie. I'm going to give this movie four nipples as well. And I do think that ultimately that the areas where I really wish we had seen more characterization were with the women characters, writ large, specifically black women characters, and the Choctaw characters

also felt like a big missed opportunity. One movie can't do anything, but it felt a little frustrating to have these characters there and very knowingly included in this very specific moment in time and then not built out upon more. With so much potential to do so. Absolutely. And again, just like this movie is touching on so much. that it couldn't possibly resolve everything ultimately I wanted more Annie yeah and I wanted a chalk talk character we got to know so but but nonetheless this movie is doing so much more than most do and and is also wildly entertaining is a genre movie did incredibly for nipples I'm going to give two to Annie I'm going to give one to Grace and I'm going to

give one to cinematographer Adam Durald Arkapaw. Dahlia, how about you? So I was going to go with four neples, but given the additional details of the production staff, I think

that does earn the film an extra nepple. An extra half nipple. So I'm going with four and a half nipples. And I know, you know, the production staff isn't necessarily definitive of the story itself or how it was told.

But I think overall there was a lot of attention to intersections and in a very complex and multi-layered way. So I give the whole cast and crew collectively they can share four and a half nipples. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us again for this discussion. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having.

We were so excited to have you back. And not discussing this film with, like, some super mayo person. Which was our intent. We wanted to bring on a British white guy. And then we were like, wait, that might be inappropriate. Delia, thank you so much for joining us again. Please come back any time. Bring us any movie you like.

With pleasure. And where can we follow you and your work online? Yes. So for comedy, which is what I want people to know me for, please follow me on Instagram at Mix Dahlia Bell. I also shitpost on Blue Sky from time to time. I know. And if you want to get way too much insight into my actual brain, you can make the mistake of following me on threads. All of that is at Mix Dahlia Bell because I'm narcissistic. and my manager insists that I have a strong brand. In that order. Same. You can follow us also mainly on Instagram at Bechtelcast.

You can also contribute to the show. We have our Patreon, aka Matrion, where for $5 a month, you can sign up, support the show, and listen to two bonus episodes a month on a theme of our choice and sometimes yours. and get access to over, I think, nearly 200 at this point, bonus episodes. So if you're like, if you've run out of episodes on the main feed, there is a place, there is a community, there is a whole expanded universe. So join us over there too.

And with that, should we get out our guitars? Oh, yes. Oh, wait. I thought to say, like, Deas X daddy guitar. With that day, because we're told at the beginning, okay, never, okay, that don't, that didn't resonate. I, okay, we're told at the beginning, it is a famous musician's guitar and then at the end, Michael B. Jordan is like, actually, that's my daddy's guitar. Oh, yeah. They say it's, they say it's Charlie Patton's guitar. Yes. And then smoke is like, no, Sammy, that was a lie. It's our father. All right. Let's just end the episode. Let's end the episode. Dad, I was, no, I loved it. Jamie, I loved it. No, it's fine.

I love you both. I love you both so much. We love you. We love you so much. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye. The Bechtel cast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed By Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh, my God.

And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic. And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless, Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media, and Big Money Players. It's the true story.

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