The Bechdel Cast - Slums of Beverly Hills with Broey Deschanel

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

This week, Jamie, Caitlin and special guest Maia Wyman aka Broey Deschanel head to a ritzy LA neighborhood and discuss Slums of Beverly Hills (1998)! Follow Maia on Instagram at @broey_deschanel, on YouTube at youtube.com/BroeyDeschanel, and check out her podcast, Rehash!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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On the pecto cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Becdell cast. Go to go. Oh, fuck. Go to the good to the, but whatever.

I'm trying to speak the secret language. I know. But I can't speak it. It was reminding me of, did you ever watch Zoom on PBS? No. Because it's one of the shows you could have watched. So I was curious. Zoom was like this kid's show that actually friend of the show Taylor Garen was on when I was a child.

Sure. Where they would speak, they would speak pig Latin. Mm-hmm. Maybe? No, wait, because I can do that. And also, like, that sounds weird. I couldn't understand what they were saying. I really appreciated in their secret language that there were subtitles.

There were subtitles. I thought that was like so charming. What is our secret language? I feel like our secret language is like trying to get out of a social situation as a group. But you're usually just like, we should go. I'm leaving now. Bye. Yeah, you're really good at leaving your room.

I'll be there three hours longer than necessary. Thank you so much. I was going to say our secret language is maybe a dialect of minionese, but I don't know. Yes, that is bellow. Bello. Bello. Oh, well, banana is an English word. I guess there's so many options for us.

How do you feel about, I know we have a lot to talk about today, but are you, do you want to go see minions and monsters at midnight? I know that everyone, I just wanted to, I was going to text to you about this off pod, but everyone did seem upset with me when I brought them to, we all fell asleep at Dispicable Me 4 at midnight, but I think it's worth a shot. It was a midnight screening. Yeah. I'm not going to say I'm too old for that, but I'm definitely not young enough for it.

Okay. So you're bowing out. You're bowing out. I won't say that. Okay. I'm just going to be a little wishy-washy about committing at the moment. I'm building my day around it. I'm planning the next day so that I can go to bed and sleep till like 11 so that I can really like drink a Celsius and see minions and monsters.

Sure. But unfortunately, all the minions are men and that didn't pass the Bechtel test, which brings us to welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, which is what now, Jamie? Well, the Bechtel test is a media matcher created by friend of this show, cartoonist Alison Bechtel, originally as a one-off joke in her comic text. to watch out for in the 80s to draw attention to the fact that there was never a queer romance between women in movies. It has since been adapted into a more generalized media metric.

The version we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for a meaningful exchange of dialogue. And today's movie really kind of puts this to the test in a really interesting way. But there's also also just so much to talk about because, yeah, this is another, I think the trend of this year, our 10th year, I don't know what anniversary that is. Oh, like, is it like gold or silver? There's like also shitty wooden. Yeah, if you don't last very, I think I've only ever made it to like the paper, the paper and like the bad ones. Anyways, for our 10 year, we've been covering a lot of movies that have been on our request list for most of those 10 years. that for whatever reason we just haven't covered.

And today is one of those movies. It is Slums of Beverly Hills, which was released in 1998, written and directed by Tamara Jenkins. And we have an incredible returning guest, one of the best, I would say. We sure do. She is a YouTuber and video essayist, host of Rehash Podcast. And you remember her from our episode on Forrest Gump. It's Maya, a.k.k.a. Broie de Chanel.

Welcome back. Thank you for having me. I never thought I'd make it back a second time. Here I am again. And I'm so pleased to be here with the both of you. You're welcome to come back anytime you want. The honor is all ours. Truly.

Yes, two wildly different 90s movies we've covered. Could not be more different. And I can't stop. I couldn't stop thinking about in the run up to this, how hilarious it was that this is the movie we're covering on the Bechdel cast. It is one of the most. complicated movies I've ever seen. So it'll be fun to dissect. Yeah, absolutely. Tell us your, your history, your relationship with this movie. Yeah, so I watched this movie for the first time

during the pandemic. My roommate and my podcast co-host actually Hannah suggested it and we had this like nightly ritual of knitting and eating a treat and watching a movie like almost every night. That or six episodes of Love Island. Of course. This night was this movie. And I, kind of fell in love with it. And I think on the second watch, I fell a little bit less in love with it, but I still like it a lot. I think I just have a lot of nostalgia for like 70s movies. But I also feel like it also occupies this place of like 90s indie fascination with

like pathetic families, like the downwardly mobile imaginary that I find so fun, kind of like Todd Salon's style filmmaking. I think it has this kind of like 90s, like indie absurdity and like matter-of-fact tone. that I also really like. And every day of my damn life, I'm trying to look like Marissa Tomei in this movie. Oh my God. One day maybe we will. She's hilarious.

Yeah. And I think generally was just struck by how morally difficult it is of a movie and like that I couldn't really wrap my head around how I felt about what the characters get up to. But yeah. Yeah. It was all my like favorite movies list for a while. And then I kind of like swapped it out over time.

But yeah, I'm a big fan of this movie even still. Nice. Yeah, there's lots to unpack. Truly, yeah. Jamie, what's your relationship with it? I had not seen it before. I'd seen another Tamara Jenkins movie. I'd seen Savages before, which I believe was her next movie in 2007, because I really enjoyed listening to and reading Tamara Jenkins' interviews and getting ready for this.

I think she has a lot of really necessary stuff to say about how difficult it is. for women to be O-Torrs. But anyways, I'd seen savages. I don't remember why. I think it was on IFC or something when I was in high school and really enjoyed it. But this has been on my list to watch forever. And I mean, casting-wise, it's like made for me. The cast in this movie, David Kromholtz is in it for crying out loud.

I mean, Bernard the elf himself. One of my most formative crushes and Kevin Corrigan, Which indicates the kind of choker that I had. Kevin, every, I saw a letterbox review for this movie that said every man in this movie deserves at least a fork to the leg. And that is definitely true. Yeah, I really enjoyed this movie. I found it challenging. It's interesting, I think probably because we're in this like 10 year space that I think I would have reacted to this movie very differently towards the beginning of the

Vectal cast versus now. I had the same thought. Yeah. I think that there's a period in my life where I would have rejected a lot of what this movie is discussing, however messily. But I think that there's a lot of interesting stuff going on. I like it a lot. There are moments where I think honestly the biggest thing that bumped me in this movie

that wasn't like super specific in a way we'll talk about is the score in this movie is so funny to me where there's something that I just want to have a word with the composer because there would be a crime that would be presented as like what is on paper a crime would be presented on screen with I thought like a lot of kind of nuance and lack of like how is I supposed to feel about this and then like accordion music will start to play And I found it so out of step with what I thought the director was doing. The music was so silly to me. The tuba music following the assault of a minor was really something else,

especially when Kevin Corkin was like, I assaulted a minor just now, and I'm aware of that. And then tuba music starts playing immediately. It's wild. It's a generic cluster fuck for sure. Like there's like something's happening on screen and then the movie's kind of like, like, atmosphereically throwing something else at you and you're like, ugh. It's so, yeah, there were so many scenes I had to be like, I have to take that back.

But like you're saying, but yeah, I think it's like, it's a look into both the 70s and the 90s and the sensibilities in both of those decades in a very specific way that I think is going to be interesting to talk about. Caitlin, what's your history? I had never seen this movie either. I've known about it for a long time. and I was familiar with what the poster looked like, but I was mistaking Natasha Leone for Brittany Murphy.

So I spent my whole white. She does kind of look like her on the poster. Yeah, not in the movie, but on the poster. She looks like Natasha Leone otherwise. Right. She's at her most Natasha Leone for sure. Yeah. Oh, is it Leone?

Oh, no, no. I meant like Leone and then dash Y. Leon E. I see, I see, I see. The flavor. The flavor of Leonie. So I spent many years thinking that a different actor was the star of this movie. And then I was like, oh, it's Natasha Leon.

And I was excited to watch it. And I similarly found it challenging. Still don't know quite what to make of it. I'm going to rely heavily on our conversation to process it. But yeah, I can't wait. to dive into it. I will say this movie keeps you on your toes until the very last second. And I think a lot of that is thematic, but also it's a jump scare Rita Moreno appearance

that no one could have seen coming, that I certainly didn't see coming. Wait, who is it? I missed it. Rita Marano plays the aunt at the end. Oh, my God, yeah, the end. Yeah, Rita Marano, she's like the wife of Carl Reiner. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, in the airport lounge.

Oh, my goodness. Did not catch that. Oh, my God. Were you afraid? How did you feel when you saw Rita Moreno? Like, what was the feeling that overcame you, Jamie? Oh, ease, comfort, safety. It was like a jump, a jump soothe.

Yes, a jump. It wasn't a scare. It was a sooth. Yes. Yeah, also Minasuvari. Minasuvari is also in this. It's a tiny, tiny baby. Jessica Walter.

Oh, my God. What a cast. And Jessica Walter does. the Lucille Bluth scream and everything. Yeah. That's actually how she got her role in Arrested Development. I'm just making that up. Because when she sees the blood, though, that's a Lucille scream.

Yeah. She goes, ah, the way that she screams right before she sees Jean Parmesan. Yeah. When she's like, ah! Exactly. Exactly. I love the way that the kids are kind of also just don't think that she's good enough for the dad because she's kind of old, like when she's talking about menopause and stuff.

But I'm like, this dad is a scrub. I don't know. I think she might be too good for him. There's so much going on. Yeah. And then you like check the, I had to do a quick like birth date check. And you're like, no, Alan Arkin is indeed half a decade older than Jessica Walter. Let's focus up.

Let's be serious. Let's be real. Yeah. I do like when she starts pulling the pads out, sorry, we're about to discuss this. But when she starts pulling the pads out and they're like archaic ancient pads. This movie did something that I kind of forget to do sometimes, which is empathized with my mother, where I think my mom would have been around this age at this time, and you're like, you know, she was really in the trenches.

Oh, yeah. Well, the way I understood it is that the reason she has this very archaic menstrual pad with the belt is because that's what Jessica Walter's character would have used when she was menstruating. like by the mid to late 70s when this movie takes place, pads had like adhesive bottoms that like stick to your underwear the way they do now. But I think so. But like those are just the pads that Jessica Walter had left over. Yeah, it was like a primitive pad. Yeah, yeah. From her like from the ancient times of like 1950s. Yeah. Empathized with those older ladies. They're going through it. Every time I see one kind of acting of in public, I don't know if this is misogynistic, but I'm like, she might be overheating.

Let her cook. I don't know. Like, she's probably so misogynistic. It's coming from a place of empathy. It was like, there's empathy in there. Yes, it's within. Yes, yes. Well, why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back for the recap.

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We've got it covered from an ultra's perspective here on the away end. So listen to the away end with Daniel Alricone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is. Getting a racist statue removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. getting a new one put up in its place. As long as there's a politics of race in America,

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It might actually be just with the doctor. Or the economist. Ordered. Listen to Wellness Actually on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Before we dive into the recap, I will provide a content warning. This movie is mostly a comedy and it's tonally light generally, but there are moments of sexual assault and incest.

Yeah, the tube of music doesn't always know where it's dropping. No, it doesn't. Okay, so it is 1976. We meet Vivian Abramowitz, played by Natasha Leon. She is about to be a freshman in high school. Her dad, who is a single father, Murray, played by Alan Arkin, is taking her shopping for her first ever bra. And the experience is very uncomfortable and humiliating for Vivian. And this will be a motif and theme throughout. I do like that the movie isn't shy about what it's about because it starts

with them talking about her breasts literally behind her back as if she isn't there. And that is kind of most of the movie as well. Yes. And we are about to see a different pair of breasts because what happens next is we cut to a woman running barefoot along the road at night. We will eventually learn that this is Rita, played by Marissa Tomey, and we'll find out that she is Marie's niece and Vivian's cousin, but we don't know that quite yet. Anyway, she is trying to hitch a ride to Beverly Hills, and she flashes her. her breasts to a truck driver to get him to stop and give her a ride. So again, the motif is present early on. I'm assuming that there are a number of, I mean, I know for Natasha Leone,

there are body doubles for reasons that we'll discuss, which is that she's wearing prosthetic boobs the whole time. I don't know how I feel about the word breasts. We can talk about it. It has always made me feel weird. They use them exclusively in the movie, too. like every time I'm going to say something so much grosser actually I was meant to say mammary gland Every time like your chest The chest is discussed breast is the word it's used

And I actually kept putting it in my notes too But that's a good flag I'm going to try and swap that out Or it's like an absence where it's like Oh she's stacked And it's like just implied what is stacked I'm sure that this is period accurate But it was like breasts

I've just always associated more with ill illness than with boobs and breasts feel different to me. And someone can write a doctoral thesis about why that is. And tits feel different than both of those things to me. Well, it depends on who's saying it, though, right? Yeah. Context is important. And who's around.

It's so context dependent. But yeah, breasts, I feel like an old, creepy man when I say breasts. I don't like it. But also, boobs feels like some... Kind of juvenile? old boy. Yeah. Kind of like boobs, you know.

What was, well, okay, because this is kind of the theme of the movie, what word were you brought up with? Because I think I was just brought up with boobs. My mom said breasts constantly. She was always talking about breasts. My God. But I was like, I cannot say that word. Lori.

To this day, I still say boobs or tits or tities. Titties is fun. But boobs is. my default. I will talk about my boobs as my boobs. I think my mom said boobies and I don't like that either. Really, really don't like it. That really sounds like a 12 year old boy. Yeah, and it was mortifying as a child. It really is like, I mean, and then I was also, I think that, well, this is also relevant. And so I'm just going to survey the class and you don't need to answer. I did not grow up with the word vagina. I grew up with the term peep area, which was, which I'm like, it really makes my body contract to think of how long I was like, your peep area, of course, like, which kind of just felt like something that my mom kind of made up.

I don't know. I've never heard that before. Yeah. I've never. I, and imagine my surprise when I learned that this is not a term that. is used. Pete area. My mom always referred to it as a pummy.

And I, that sends shivers down my spine. But in my head, I called it a vagina because I thought your butt and your vagina were the same thing. And were you wrong? You know? What's you wrong? Yeah. They're neighbors.

Their neighbors. They're friends. They're friends. I don't remember exactly what I called. I think I called it my crotch a lot. Whoa. That's very vague. Yeah.

Sex education is so important, listeners. Way in in the comments. Yes, please. Anyway, so the point is breasts, boobs, tits, whatever you want to call them, they feature heavily in the movie. And they heavily feature. Okay, so we cut back to Vivian. Her dad wakes her up in the middle of the night and tells her they're moving, like right now, and to gather her things so that they can high-tail it out of this apartment.

It's clear that Murray is trying to skip out on paying rent. They live in Beverly Hills, but they are not rich, unlike many people who live in that neighborhood or, like, the associations with Beverly Hills and wealth. They are lower income working class. Murray is a struggling car salesman. But he wants to keep his kids, Vivian, her younger brother Ricky and her older brother Ben, played by David Cromholtz. Oh my God.

Keep them in Beverly Hills because of the good schools. Now, before they arrive at their new apartment, they go out to eat, shout out sizzler, strong sizzler representation in. the film, which I wonder if this was before, because I associate Sizzler with like a buffet style restaurant. This may be want to, because we go to the Olive Garden together. I'm like, we should have a Sizzler night. So what is Sizzler as someone who is, is this like a West Coast? It changed? I think it's a West Coast thing. Yes, I think so. I never saw it on the East Coast. Yeah, me either. It is a restaurant where you go in from, from my recollection, because I've been there a few times,

Phrantheses, brag. You can opt to like order a steak or a slab of meat or something like that. And then with that you get the buffet. So it's like a salad bar and soup and all that kind of stuff. Or you can just do the buffet style without the slab of meat. I just did a quick fact check. And I think that that was what it was like in the 70s as well. And I think that like with that context, I feel like the comp for it today would be kind of an olive garden. where it's, I feel like it's a signifier for the lower middle class, right? Where it's like it's not, you know, gas station food. It's not drive-through food.

But it also kind of is, right? Like it's an aspirational venue to be consuming what is ultimately kind of cheap food. When I was growing up in a working class family to eat at Olive Garden was to have a fancy dinner. I mean, but that's how they view Sizzler. That's what I mean. It's like the lower middle class, I think that that like signifier kind of shifts. But yeah, like I associate it with like in New England. It was like there was this place called like the 99 or like old country buffet and yeah, places that were like it's a sit down meal.

It's nice, you know. In Toronto we have a place called Mandarin. It's also like it's like a like a buffet, a Chinese restaurant, a chain. And similar. It's kind of like an outing for the downwardly mobile. Like you wear your nice clothes. You go there and you're like, we're at Mandarin tonight. But it's not like outrageously expensive.

It's like accessible. Right. I think of it as because I think we're all from like somewhat similar like socioeconomic backgrounds of like it's like a report card restaurant or a like your cousin just got baptized kind of restaurant. Totally. Yeah. So they go to Sizzler where Vivian. is humiliated once again because her dad is being racist. Her brother Ben is making gross remarks about her appearance and about women's bodies in general. And so is her dad. And so as her dad,

he's, you know, he disapproves of what she is wearing. She's wearing this halter top. He tells her to put on the bra. He just bought her because she's like spilling out of her top and says all these horrible things about her body. Then, Murr, Culls his rich brother Mickey to ask for a loan. And Mickey is like, I can't. My daughter, Rita, escaped from a rehab center. And so then we connect the dots that this is the Marissa Tomei character we saw earlier. And Mickey mentions that he would pay someone if they knew what to do with Rita.

And Murray is like, what's that you say? You would pay someone? So Murray hatches a plan. He picks Rita up from jail and now she's going to be staying with Murray and his kids. But they need to show Murray's brother Mickey that Rita has a plan for her future so that Mickey will continue to support her financially and basically support the entire family. Yeah, that's definitely, he's never in it just to be kind to his niece. No. He's a scammer of the nth degree. To the nth degree? Yes, for sure. And so Rita and Murray decide that she will go to school to be like a nurse slash medical assistant. Meanwhile, the family has moved into their new apartment in Beverly Hills. There, Vivian meets the next door neighbor, this guy, Elliot, played by Kevin Corrigan. I love Kevin Corrigan. I love Kevin Corrigan so much.

He's such a nasty piece of shit in this movie, which we'll talk about it. But I just am always smiling my head off when I see Kevin Corrigan. His characters are usually likeable but also likable in ways I can't entirely explain. I also love his character in the show community. I don't know if anyone remembers his. I didn't see it. I remember watching reruns of Grounded for, life and be and because he's the scumbag uncle in that show and being like something is happening he's

some guy that a girl who's a tween would be so into yes and he takes advantage of that and from every from every way you could possibly imagine but i just i love kevin corgan okay yeah that was not a feminist observation we can continue it's quite all right we contain multitudes yeah so anyway is Elliot. He is a weed dealer. He's, I guess, like, kind of an anarchist type. He loves Charles Manson. He's a poser. He's a poser. So they're hanging out. Vivian is still trying to figure out what it is to have breasts. And she asks him if he wants to touch hers. And he really, really does. he touches them. They have a moment in the laundry room. And then she's like, okay, get away. This is a building thing.

We're containing this to the building kind of thing. I have a question because I was not, I was seeing different answers and very vague answers, maybe intentionally so. We know that Vivian is about to start high school. I've seen her characterizes either 14 or 15. We know that she is firmly a minor. It's stated in the movie.

do we know how old Kevin Corrigan is supposed to be? I know that he's an adult, but like... I think it's 20, but I could be wrong. Because like the actor is like 30, but I didn't know how old he was supposed to be. Okay, Wikipedia is telling me 20 something. Yeah, that was what I was seeing. And so you're like, okay, it doesn't make a difference

in terms of the power dynamic, but I was having a difficult time tracking how old everyone was supposed to be throughout. Yeah, they never make it explicitly clear in the movie. Except for Vivian. Right. Vivian, I think, is the only character in the movie that we definitively know how old she is, which, oh, and.

Murray is 65. And that Rita is 29. We only know how old women are because that's the only age metric that is actually relevant in this world. Yeah. Well, yeah, we know, I mean, Murray, a lot is made of Murray's age of 65. Sure.

He's over the hill. But yeah, it's mostly women and girls. But yeah. Okay, so we get the scene where Elliot touches Vivian's breasts in the laundry room. And then there are, once again, more boobs in the scene directly following that because Vivian walks in on Rita taking a shower and we get this shot of Rita's. boobs again. And then the two cousins start to reconnect. We learn about their secret language that I was attempting to do at the top of the episode, which they did when they were younger. And the thing about

Rita being there now is that she offers this feminine presence in Vivian's life that she was lacking before. And it's a nice change of pace from her constantly being around only her dad and brothers. And with all the money that Mickey, Rita's dad, is giving the family, the family moves again, this time into a luxury building across the street with better amenities, more space, a swimming pool, et cetera. And the family talks about what this means for them classwise. They're like, are we rich? Are we middle class? You know, they talk about Mickey being a business owner and that's how he has amassed wealth. And then Murray tells a story slash we get a flashback from when he was a business owner. He owned a restaurant where they served these expensive steaks.

And he suspected that one of his employees was stealing stakes and smuggling them out in his pants. So Murray stabbed the guy in the thigh with a fork to confirm his suspicions. that there was a steak in his pants. And this is going to be Chekhov's stab in the thigh with a fork. Yeah, Chekolls Fork. Then there's a scene where Vivian and Rita are hanging out, where Rita is unpacking her stuff and she pulls out a vibrator. Vivian has never seen one before.

So they start kind of goofing around with it and tossing it around and dancing. and then Murray walks in and Vivian doesn't know how to turn it off so it's another humiliating moment that her father's involved in which is kind of thrilling to know that that particular area of vibrator technology

has made stunningly little progress in the ensuing half century since this movie is set where you're like yeah it is still kind of difficult to just turn one off and they're like And they're loud. Like this and like laser jet printers.

I'm like, how have we not made more progress in these areas? But the scene was so, we'll talk about it more, but it was, the scene is such a puzzle to me because I find it cathartic and fun and silly in one reading of it.

And then very bizarre. Like it's so long. They're dancing for so long. And the joy is. centered around a big vibrate. Yes. It's so weird. And that Alan Arkin is, there's like, I think that honestly, like, one of my biggest things with this movie that I felt like, and I say this lovingly, like sometimes characters behave like cartoons and other times they don't.

And this was definitely more of a Looney Tunes scene where you're like, Alan Arkin's just standing there for like 20 seconds. wordlessly. He has basically no reaction. Yeah, because that that is like a, I don't know, it's like it's more of a vibes scene that ends. Vibs Raider. It is a vibes raider scene that ends in like a protracted Looney Tunes humiliation. It's like, it's such a weird little scene. It does kind of feel like, oh my God, not to make this comparison on like a qualitative basis, but like it does feel like when Sam Levinson does these really indulgent musical breaks, like musical montage breaks and euphoria. Interesting. Where he'll have the character just like dancing.

She's so confused. And she's in this like wood paneled basement. And there's music. And it goes on for so long because he just didn't know what else to do with the time that he had. So. But this is like like, yeah. But this kind of feels like a dead art almost of like the joyful musical break where they're like, the audience needs a bit of levity.

Let's just throw this in here. And I don't know if it's fully. How we feel about this? Yeah, yeah. How do you guys, how do you like that? I mean, it's like, there is a world where I would buy into this scene, like no one's business. But it's like because at this point in the movie and arguably kind of throughout the movie, the relationship between Viv and Rita is so kind of vague.

And then all of a sudden, very intense and then over that it's like, it feels like this, like this scene almost feels like a climactic, like. yes, we're hanging out. We have a vibrator. This is so fun, question mark. I don't know. So there were certain sequences where I was like, where is Rita at? Where is her head at in this moment?

And it felt like another instance of kind of, and I will talk about this, I'm sure, but teaching womanhood and like learning womanhood and Rita kind of like bestowing these elements of like female sexuality onto her like newly quote unquote sexual like teenage younger. cousin. And I guess I kind of read it like that, like as a triumphant, like, here's another thing you'll just learn, you know, but then they're being goofy with it. So it's, and they're not actually thank God using it. So you're kind of like, I don't know. Yeah, it's a confusing scene. It's confusing. Yeah. It's just kind of there. Well, I also think that we're conditioned to expect the moment that the dad walks in and, oh, no, she can't turn off the vibrator and it's humiliating,

that he's going to like have an outburst where he's shaming both Vivian and maybe Rita for having such a device and shaming them for having sexuality and sexual desire and things like that. But if that reaction is had, we don't see it on screen. No, he just looks like he's buffering there. I think like what I read of the dad throughout the movie, much to discuss. Yeah. But was that I think as the movie goes on, he kind of starts out kind of like on Vib's ass about everything.

And then I think the more he kind of spirals out of control and the more he seems kind of exhausted midway through. And I think he just gets distracted and almost stops being a father. Because at the beginning, you can kind of see this attempt at being like a single dad where he's like awkwardly trying to kind of like talk to his daughter, but like really badly about what it means to be a woman, et cetera. But then as the movie goes on, that relationship just kind of disqualification. just kind of dissipates a little bit.

And it seems to me like maybe the correlation between his like struggles, personal struggles and being a dad, I guess. Yeah. Maybe he also thinks that when Rita shows up, he's like, oh, well, I'm kind of off the hook of having to like, definitely, yeah. Teach my daughter or anything. Yeah. I felt like that.

And this wasn't like super clear to me on my first viewing, but I'm on my second. That is like one of the, I think kind of very. loaded trickier through lines in this movie is it does seem like that yeah that the dad is looking for someone to offload having kids but also very specifically having a daughter onto he tries that with Rita and Rita is a mess it doesn't work he tries it with Lucille it's a mess Doris but also come on but also Lucille Bluth yes she tries he tries that with Doris it doesn't work and then the end that we'll talk more about it. But at the end, it seems almost like Viv resigns herself in a way that's like framed

pretty positively that she's just going to raise herself. And that is okay. Yeah. And it's an interesting way to end. I'm really excited to talk about the ending of the movie because I think there's so many ways to look at it, all of which I find quite depressing. But maybe you're supposed to. I don't know.

Yeah. I can't wait to talk more about all of that. I have much to say on this, yes. But in the meantime, we power on through the recap. So the next thing that happens, speaking of Doris, Murray takes his family to dinner with her. This is a woman he met when he sold her a car. She also lives in a fancy building in Beverly Hills.

It seems like he and Doris are kind of dating, but she makes it clear that she only wants a companion she does not want to be touched. She does not want to have sex, anything like that. And that's something that Murray is struggling with. They're at dinner, Vivian gets her period and has to sneak off to the bathroom. This is the scene we were talking about where Doris gives her this old-timey pad. And then Doris discovers blood on her chair, which she had like cross-stitched the upholstery.

And she says, oh, jean. She goes, and the way older women are characterized in this movie we can talk about as well. But I was delighted to hear Jessica Walter scream, regardless of context. She's like, there's blood. Not on my chair. So they leave Doris's place. Then Rita reveals to Vivian that she is pregnant from a guy she met in rehab. He does not know this.

She is freaking out because she's about to start her nursing program and she has to give a urine sample. But if the school tests her urine, they'll know that she's pregnant and that could jeopardize her future in this training program. So she has Vivian pee in a cup for her. It's very older cousin behavior. Yes. I was like, this is very some hijinks, some fun hijinks. Yeah.

And so when Vivian is doing this and looking for a role of toilet paper, she finds Rita's vibrator and uses it to masturbate. And I feel like it's implied that she is masturbating for the first time, at least with a vibrator. And she loves it. She has the best time. Then there's a scene where Vivian meets a girl. her building, this is the Mina Suvari character, who has just gotten a nose job. And she gives Vivian the business card of her cosmetic surgeon and mentions that the surgeon also gave her mother a breast reduction. And states that, and again, this is where the movie

feels both 70s and 90s in its sensibilities and also 2020s, where she's basically like big tits are out. Big tits are considered trashy and out of style. And I don't know, it's just a very depressing circle is presented in this scene. Yeah, for sure. And so Vivian hears about this breast reduction surgery. And she's like, hmm, that is very interesting. And so that'll come back later. then Vivian takes Rita to her first day of nursing school via Elliot giving them a ride, but first Rita wants to pay a visit to the man who got her pregnant, this guy, Danny, but he's not home. And then when she finally does get a hold of him on the phone, he finds out she's pregnant

and hangs up, it seems like he will completely bail on her forever. meanwhile Elliot is teaching Vivian how to drive and they end up having sex in his car and we'll talk all about this scene but basically he's upset when he realizes that she has never had sex before and that he was the one to quote unquote take her virginity. Yeah he's the victim here. Yes, he sure acts like it. Yeah. Then they go to pick up Rita, but she's, not at the school so they rush home and find her unconscious and unresponsive and chaos ensues when Murray is shouting and insisting that she just needs a cup of coffee Doris is freaking out Ricky has called the paramedics and they come bursting in the room Mickey calls Murray on the phone saying that he will be flying to LA the following day this scene is

totally nuts This scene is so, like, every possible emotional interpretation of this scene is presented. David Krumholtz gets into guys and dolls in the middle of it. Like, it's just like every tone is happening in this scene. True. Yeah, it's only like the havoc of this like, claustrophobic family life. Yeah. You're really like, oh, you're done.

Yeah. It's nuts. You're done with these folks. It's, yeah. It's wild. And then the medics revive Rita. And a little later, as she's recovering, she and Murray are kind of consoling each other. And he gropes her chest, which Vivian, sorry, there's a loud machine happening now right outside my window.

The way it looked was that someone was like, don't say gropes her chest. See, like someone was yelling at you off camera. Like you were kind of shy. Okay, so he assaults her, which Vivian sees through a crack in the door. And of course, we will talk about this as well. We cut to Vivian at the cosmetic surgeon who the girl in her building had recommended. Vivian resents her breasts and wants to get breast reduction surgery. But then she chickens out and runs out of the doctor's office.

Meanwhile, Mickey has arrived. He's played by Carl Reiner. He and his wife, who I just learned at the top of this episode, is played by Rita Moreno, are at a diner with the rest of the family. And Rita is about to make this big entrance to surprise her dad in her nurse's uniform. I think they're actually still at the airport. Oh. Because I think they're like, they're no nonsense. Like they're like, let's just meet up at the airport. We're not going to, I don't want to. I have no. I have no. want nothing to do with you. This family. They're like airplanes in the background. Yeah. I could be wrong. No, I think you're right. They don't go to a second location.

Because yeah, when this scene ends, as we're about to find out, they're leaving like on the tarmac. Yeah. Right. Yes. Okay. So Rita is about to make this big entrance in her uniform, but she's in the bathroom freaking out.

Vivian comes in and confronts Rita about what. what happened the night before between her and Vivian's dad. And Vivian is furious at Rita. Again, we'll talk about how her anger is misplaced. But they eventually reconcile and they go back out to the table. It's a tense meal at the airport diner. And then Murray offers to pay. He wants to look good in front of his kids.

But Mickey is like, what difference does it make? It's my money. You never learned how to handle your finances or budget or anything like that. I've been paying for you for your whole life and you're 65. So grow up. And Murray is humiliated. So Vivian stabs her uncle Mickey in the thigh with a fork, a callback to the story that Murray told earlier. So Mickey is like, um, fuck this. and he and his wife and Rita leave and head back to the East Coast. Mickey cuts off Murray financially, so now Murray and Vivian and her brothers

have to move out of that expensive building and back into the slums of Beverly Hills. But this time, Vivian feels less humiliation and a greater appreciation and fondness for her family and their situation. The end. I love the incorporation of the title. Wow.

Thank you. Thank you so much. What a pro. So let's take another quick break and we'll come back for the discussion. Listen. And you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Where to start here? What stuck out to you? Where would you like to start? Guests privilege, guest burden. Well, I broke my thoughts up into themes. So I guess I'll just begin with the first thing, theme that really sticks out.

But kind of the concept of sexual agency. Yeah. So this movie really reminds me. of another movie that's set in the 70s, another movie directed by a woman. Do you guys know Diary of a Teenage Girl? Yes. Yeah. I know of it.

I've never seen it. Oh, that would be a good one to talk about it on Fectalcast, actually. So, yeah, it's this 2015 movie by Mariel Heller, and it basically is depicting, I find it's similar because it's depicting kind of like a sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s and the way that that kind of tipped over into, like, sexual exploitation of women, very much paralleling, like, the time that it came out in in 20s. 2015, it was like the slut walk era and stuff going on then. And I feel like both of these movies are capturing this kind of like post-sexual revolution

eras that were like hypersexual and like sexually permissive, but like sometimes at the expense of women. And diary of a teenage girl is about like a 15 year old girl similarly who has a statutory affair with her mother's boyfriend. And it also leaves you very uneasy, but it's more of a drama and this is more of a comedy. Yeah. But I think the major theme like I was pulling out was just like the idea. idea of a teenage girl grappling with her own sexual agency and like the constant push and pull of navigating like how much agency you actually have in a world that sees you as prey. I was thinking a lot about how Viv doesn't have any like positive role models.

She kind of has to learn things on her own. But yeah, I don't know. The movie had me thinking a lot about the ways that like I have never been more sexualized in my life than when I was age 14 to 18. Like I get cat called way less as an adult woman than I did as a teenager. And the ways that kind of like, I related so much to this movie with the way that, like, a girl's, like, pubescent body is kind of made public when she enters womanhood. Like, your body becomes grounds for, like, anyone to comment on.

I remember I had female relatives who would just grab my boobs, like, and be like, oh, my God, they're coming in, you know? And it wasn't, like, malicious, but it's like, why, why is my body all of a sudden this, like, springboard for discourse when, like, I'm so uncomfortable in it? And I don't know what to make of it. I don't have sexual feelings yet, but, like, I have a sexual body now. And I think that the movie really tackles that subject matter in an interesting way. And that was a major reason why I liked it. Yeah. But obviously it's like a really difficult topic and like very touchy.

So yeah. But yeah, I was thinking I wrote down breasts as a sight of tension. Yes. I mean, in so many. I totally agree. Where I feel like one of the things that this movie really does successfully get you to is to understand why by the end of. of this movie, Vivian is like, I don't want these breasts. I don't want them. Because they have not only caused her severe discomfort and scrutiny very suddenly in a way

that because of how her life is structured and her family structure, she has no real protector from and no one to even contextualize why it's happening. She also, like the inciting reason that she actually goes is because she sees her cousin, I think, in her 14-year-old mind, like sees her cousin suffer as a result of having, like, boobs, whatever. I hate that we have not settled on a word that doesn't feel weird. But I totally feel, like, I think that like everyone has their version of this too, where I think about, because this is like, this is a movie that's sort of set at the time of my mom's

adolescence, the director is my mom's age. And the stories that, you know, over, not until I was an adult, was I sort of aware of like how the way that my mom perceived herself and the way that people perceived her body when she was coming of age, like informed a lot of the issues I had, right? But, but just how this is like very intentionally a period piece because it's drawing directly from Tamara Jenkins' experience. And I think does seem to do very well with drawing how people would talk about girls' bodies specifically at this time, but also in a way that feels so familiar. Not much has changed.

Yeah. I mean, like, my, I love that you said, like, yeah, your body is, like, used as a conversation topic. And you're not allowed to say anything about it. And I feel like for, for her dad, it almost seems like, he thinks he's being supportive by even acknowledging her body and by criticizing her body. That's how he feels he's able to like participate in her life in this way that is like so dark and sad. And you can see exactly how, I mean, that scene at the sizzler at the beginning was so frustrating probably because it felt just familiar enough where you could see not just

her dad criticizing like you can't wear that top I vividly remember being told by any number of family members to put a bra on in a top that made it 100% more embarrassing to be wearing a bra that was so specific and so good but then but then to see her brother mimic that behavior for the dad's approval I think that like really hit for like because that's the whole david crumholt's character and I remember that from like my older boy cousins like seeing what how other men would act and then projecting that same you know stuff at me my cousins or whoever else and then looking to their father for approval like I think she like illustrates that cycle really well and doesn't really present a solution for it because yeah we haven't figured that out I think like what I do

appreciate so much about the, like, it's tricky the way the movie depicts it and like doesn't always necessarily work. But I do think what I appreciate is like, it really evokes a feeling of disgust that you don't know what to do with because there's nothing that can be done in the scene. Like no one's advocating for her because it's like the time and the place, right? And so you're kind like, oh, like you just feel foul watching a lot of it. Yeah. And I think like doesn't let other women off the, like I think whatever, the kind of most sanitized version. of this story offers, oh, she just needs a woman in her life. And like if if she talks to a woman, this will be resolved. But I think that this movie does, is like open to women being also fucked up

and having a lot of like internalized hatred of and acceptance of behaviors, which is so much. I think in like Rita's more lucid, less cartoon. Because there are moments with Rita where I'm like, I have no idea what the hell she's doing. But in her more like grounded moments, it's like, yeah, like Rita is, has a lot of internalized acceptance of how she's, how she's been treated and how she is, how she's accepting of being treated in a way that isn't going to be helpful to Viv in a way that, I don't know, like it's frustrating for the character, but also feels very real. Like there is no real off-ramp, even when people are trying. I think women try to show up for Viv, but like no one is quite able to do it. Right. Vivian having this new presence in her life

of this guardian-esque, not quite mother figure, but like, you know, a familial person who she grew up with and who is older and wiser than her, but is, as we're saying, harboring a lot of, you know, internalized misogyny and like body image issues. There's there's all these, there are several moments where Rita talks about how fat she thinks she is and how she needs to lose weight. And that's a whole other topic of conversation. But, you know,

She is not fully equipped to be a parent or like a role model for Vivian. And she's not like asking to be a parent either. No. Yeah. And then we see Vivian constantly reconciling. I have these, again, breasts. It's such a, it's the same way that I hate the word penis because it just feels so clinical. Yeah.

But it's like, you know, the correct term. I like the way that Natta. Russia Leon says it. It sounds casual when she says it. It's that raspy voice. Can anyone do an impression? Well, I'm getting over a cold right now. Yeah, I bet you could do it.

Someone smoke a cigarette and then try it. I'm just going to sound like Gallum if I do it. Like breasts. But anyway, so Vivian is reconciling all these conflicting feelings about, you know, I'm developing. into this adolescent body. I have breasts now. She resents that because she's seen the way that women are so heavily objectified for their physiques and for their breasts. So she resents that, but it seems like she's also trying to figure out how to navigate that in the sense that, like,

my breasts aren't going to go away. So what can I do about this? How can I reclaim some agency, to your point, Maya, about like, can I sort of like take my power back and take control of the situation, which we see in that scene in the laundry room when she asks Elliot if he wants to touch her breasts? And he says, yes. And then he starts to unbuckle his pants. She was very clear about, do you want to touch my breasts? He interprets that, however, as do you want to fuck me right now in the laundry room. And she has to say, like, no, I was clear about what I wanted. And he completely misinterprets it in the way that so many men willfully do in situations

like this. Well, I don't want to like launch the conversation forward too much. But that was one of the many scenes where I guess I'm trying to figure out how I feel about how this specific issue is landed within this movie. I think the theme is definitely present of like, and this is like sort of what we've all been talking about to some extent of girls like developing bodies and how that affects how men, how everyone,

but how specifically men treat them and talk to them. And how objectively to be in this scene, it is obviously on the Kevin Corrigan character to say no, when a child offers themselves sexually, we know that Vivian is canonically 14 years old. And he knows that too. And he's aware of this. That is one of the first things he learns about her.

And he says, oh, wow, you look older, which is so important in how he treats her the whole time. What I think is interesting at a number of points in this movie is that we do cannot, it's not a question of like, do the characters know what they need to know? they always know what they need to know. And sometimes I feel like plot-wise, they get off the hook a little bit. Do I believe that in 1976

that the Kevin Corrigan character would absolutely get away with this and no one would think anything about it? Yes. But I guess I was like kind of bumped and like, huh, a number of times that like, why is the movie not, the movie doesn't seem to be pushing back on it

as much as I was, I guess wanting it too. I agree. Because we know it every single step of the way that he knows. But at the end, I don't think that we're meant to dislike him. I don't know. Well, and I think this is the ultimate kind of like distinction to me between like when, let's say diary of a teenage girl was made in this.

Because diary of a teenage girl is like very much a drama. Like there are funny elements, but it's like quite tragic and like extremely disturbing. As lighthearted as it sometimes may be. Whereas this movie like tonally, yeah, really contrasts with some of its subject matter. and really does make you think about what Tamara Jenkins thinks of the subject matter. Because you can see what she's trying to do. But even, and like, I don't know if this was going to come up later,

but like thinking of the concept of the male gaze, like I've seen a lot of people online talk about how this movie is like, perpetuates the male gaze. I don't necessarily know if it does, but I do think there are elements of it. Like one of my, like, the ways that I diagnose a male gaze in a movie is like when the camera like severs the head of the woman and like isolates different body parts.

Headless women of Hollywood vibes. Headless women of Hollywood. Yeah. Isolates the woman from her personhood and like will isolate the body parts. And this movie does do that. Obviously, with the boob scenes, it's because it's trying to like. For body doubles. But then inadvertently kind of severes the character from the personhood as well.

And you're like, hmm. And that's why I think it's so complicated because there's so many kind of like angles you could look at it from. But I could, I definitely think it lets the male characters off the hook. via tone. Yeah. Yeah. Like in a way that the 70s would, but I don't understand why the director does.

And I was looking for this and I wasn't able to find it. Maybe we'll get it for the 20 or the 30 year. God, the 30 year anniversary of this movie. But I wasn't able to find a lot of Tamara Jenkins speaking on this theme specifically because I would be really curious. Again, because I'm projecting my mom onto her to some degree as like they were born the same year. And I know that my mom's feelings on what she viewed as like, well, that was the world then, blah, blah, blah, in 1998 versus now is wildly different because she watched me grow up

and experience a lot of those same things. And so I would just be really curious if her perspective on this has shifted over time. I mean, I'm assuming it has, but I would just, I'm like, I want more info on. how she thinks about it now. Because she was in her 30s when this came out. But like the sexual politics of the 90s, like you were saying, are also really fraught in terms of like what women and young women are expected to accept and internalize.

Well, it was like the height of like the nymphat, you know, movie. Oh, yeah. Alicia Silverstone. Like that was that like reaching an all-time peak like you talk about in Lalit. I was like, where did I learn that? I just realized I learned it from your podcast. gas series. Yeah, this is the year. I mean, this is like the year after the Jeremy Irons, Lolita adaptation. Like the 90s is full of this stuff. But very rarely from women, which is why I think

I went into this expecting a little more pushback and not quite finding it. And that's not even a criticism of Tamara Jenkins necessarily. It's just like, I just want more info. It is emblematic of the attitude of the time. Yeah. And I also think that the movie thinks that that relationship between Vivian and Elliot is quote unquote okay because it is mostly Vivian. Right. Behind the steering wheel determining what's happening, initiating sexual contact, etc.

Make no mistake. the scene where they have sex in the car is statutory rape. Well, it's like also starts that way too. Like the scene is initiated by him shoving weed into her pants. Like it starts as an adult, you know, like assaulting a kid and then evolves into statutory rape off screen. Yeah, this gets into like Lolita stuff quite a bit where it's literally 14 year old girls, regardless of like if a 14 year old initiate.

attempts to initiate sex with an adult, the adult says no. Like it's just, it's just not. And I do think that the, this is not a murky age difference between the two of us. We're not talking about a 14 year old and a 16 year old or like, you know, some of the trickier conversations here where it's like, how do we interpret the letter of the law? This guy is like potentially 10 years older than her, you know. And Natasha Leone and Kevin Corrigan are for contact. 10 years apart in age.

We don't know exactly how old he's supposed to be in the movie, but it's old enough that, like, it is absolutely on him to say no. And it's just so, I don't know, I really struggled with it. What I like, and I keep bringing up diary of a teenage girl, but there's just so many parallels. But, like, what that movie does is, like, similar to Viv, like, the main character learns sexuality from the older women in her life

who have experienced this kind of sexual revolution, who are hypersexual, maybe kind of embody some of the misogyny of the time or like absorbed it. And it's like the younger, this like teenage girl not fully understanding what's going on and like trying to seize control of her own sexuality because she's like, well, everyone else is liberated. Like I can be too. But in that movie, like, it's very much condemning the mother's boyfriend for like allowing this. Even though she initiates almost all of it. He like allows her to do so.

But in slums of Beverly Hills, yeah, you can look at it and be like, oh, wow, that's really progressive thinking about, like the way that it's kind of like taking this lens of Viv learning from Rita this type of like hypersexuality and then being like, okay, I'm going to also be like this. But then, yeah, when it kind of turns it around and you're supposed to kind of empathize with the guy because she didn't tell him she's a virgin, it's like, ooh, I don't, yeah, I don't know what it was going for there. The 70s was so close.

Truly. Like it feels like a weird time capsule of like thinking from the 90s of like women of the 90s reflecting on coming of age in the 70s. And this is also insanely specific, but it's also like, but that's our moms. And like, I don't know. Yeah, I, it really stuck with me where I'm sure that like women in their 30s right now are doing the same kind of rationalization in all of these, how there are so many movies happening in the early 2000s right now, right?

Where it's like everyone is meditating on their childhood. Everyone's meditating on their coming of age and trying to. make art that rationalizes it. And so I don't know. I don't think that this exact story would have come out of a cis man. Like it just wouldn't have. And it's so specific. And it almost just to me feels like her processing.

And again, it just reminds me of how I've heard my mom talk, of how I've talked in the past about my own formative sexual experiences, where I give myself more agency than I actually had. the time. Yeah. To be okay with whatever it was, to feel like I was maybe more in control than I was. Because there are moments to me. And I know that like everyone is different.

Everyone has a different background. But there are moments where I feel like the way that Viv is setting boundaries very firmly and clearly felt to me a little out of step with how 14 year olds behave. Yeah. I don't think 14 year olds say I'm not looking for anything serious. right now. You know what I mean? Like, right. I think there is like an element to it where she's almost like grown up, grown up too

quickly because of this like nomadic environment where she kind of has to be like the wife and the daughter because her dad is such a man child and like a mess. And I think there is that element of it. But but no, definitely. Yeah. Well, I remember several instances from my teen years and like formative sexual experiences and feelings and things like that, where technically I was consenting, but I was only doing that because I felt some coercion, whether it was like directly from someone else or just like peer pressure or societal pressure. So I feel like that's a lot of what Vivian is experiencing.

And where it lands in the story, I guess this isn't even where it. it lands because she sees Elliot again after this as she's like moving out of that building. But the scene in the car, and that ends with him berating her and saying, you didn't, oh, I'm the victim here. You didn't even think about me. This put so much pressure on. He's saying like you tricked me into assaulting a minor. Be virginizing a minor, quote unquote. Right.

Which. This is 14 year old's a virgin? Right. He's so full of shit. And I do feel like the movie knows he's full of shit. But then the tuba music hits. And I like dissociate because that scene was about to be so, like, it feels like there are some scenes that end like five lines of dialogue too soon before I wanted them to.

Yeah. Where that scene ends really, I was like, my God. Like I... The complicit tuba. It's the complicit accordion player. being like, and let's keep it moving. Like, it felt like truly the studio notes accordion coming in at certain moments before I could get the resolution I wanted because I do think, and like this is, I'm fully guessing

here, but that if the line of dialogue was written down, it feels like it is written that he's supposed to look like a fool in that moment. But then the music and the remainder of the movie seems to be fighting with that. Well, and he's such a loser, like, with his, like, Manson shirts. And I thought it was so relatable the way he just talks at her about Charles Manson and his music. And, like, you know, it's, so the movie is, like, satirizing him. He is such a, like, kind of guy. But I love what you said about Tamara Jenkins' processing through writing this. Like, I don't know if any of these experiences within this movie are, like, exactly hers. I know that she mostly just talked about, like, the experience of being nomadic

growing up in Beverly Hills with, like, a lower middle class family. And having an old dad, too, because that's what Savage is about. It's about having a really old dad. Having an old dad, I said, relatable. But yeah, she hasn't talked a lot about whether or not these sexual experiences are her own. But I would love to see a, like, a spiritual follow-up to it. Because I'm all for a movie just kind of representing the culture of its time. But yeah, I would also be curious to know what she would say about all of this years later.

Yeah. Well, and then the other big scene to talk about, at least one of the other big scenes to talk about is the scene where Murray assaults his niece and how that's written and what pans out in that scene where, you know, they're having this tender moment of consoling each other. She has, she's coming around after having overdosed and having to be revived by paramedics. You know, this has been a traumatic day for her already. Yeah.

And a lot of tonal dissonance for us. the viewer. Yes. Yeah. The whole character of Rita, I felt like we were sent between like a lot of comedic beats and then all of a sudden abject tragedy. And then in the next scene, she's back to being. Cooky.

Yeah, which is like I see how that, it didn't quite work for me. I think I understood what she was going for, but it just like, it felt a little weird to me. But this is, this is definitely one of the abject tragedy scenes. For sure. My reparative reading of this scene, like, I didn't even know how to feel about it the first time I watched it. I felt complicated. I was, I was really intrigued that it was depicted.

I do feel undecided about the way that the scene happens. And then it kind of follows up, like the next time we see the dad, he's kind of framed within this empathetic lens of like, you know, a father who's like struggling with emasculation as he like struggles with class and like the kind of correlation between those things, which, you know, like I grew up with dad who's. struggled on occasion financially and it was it was hard to watch and so I really really like liked that scene at the dinner where the dad's trying to pay I think it's like a really interesting depiction of fatherhood but yeah I guess my reparative reading of the scene would just be like what do we do with the people we love when they do bad things right and I think when she confronts Rita in the bathroom you're kind of like I could read it like as probably what it was which is the 90s kind of condemning women for quote unquote seducing men or like driving tempting them

mixed, yeah. But I also read it as like Viv trying to kind of reconcile or deal with this like new image of her father that she's just not ready to, she's not ready to kind of accept. And taking it out on Rita. Taking it out on her cousin. And I do think that the movie really puts us in that position of like, what do we do with this man who like, like we have kind of come to like as the movie goes on? Like he's funny, whatever. He's, he can be a tender father. Alan Arkin is so likable. Yeah. Alan Argan has mad Riz. So like what do, yeah, what do we do with this character? And the movie, I think, in the emasculation scene is kind of letting him off the hook, which I feel complicated about. Yeah. But yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah. I think for me, because I know that that scene specifically is where just having gathered some rough letterboxed data and going through just how this movie has been talked about over the years, this is the scene where the movie loses a lot of people. I have complicated feelings about it similarly. I have a bigger issue with how the movie ends than that plot point being introduced, I think.

I think that what's important to me is how the movie deals with the fallout of that. And I thought that felt more. The ending felt so neat. And it felt like in a way that was presented too cleanly of like, and now this girl who is still 14 years old and more fucked up than when she started. And her father has not changed at all. He's doing exactly what he did at the beginning of the movie. She is now accepted that this is how the world is.

And now she understands that. And she is taking on the role of being the daughter and the mother of this family. And I mean, we're kind of told this in, I think pretty like straightforwardly in the closing, like voiceover. that it's all good, baby. Life's about the journey. And you're just like, that was not my takeaway from the last half hour of the movie. I think we're presented with a lot of really complicated things.

And now, I don't know how I would have felt half a decade ago. Watching it now, I think that, like you're saying, it's not as if it is an option for Viv to abandon her family. Where the hell is she going to go? Right. And I think in a in in this time and the time the movie is made, I wasn't like offended or shocked that Viv considered her cousin Rita to be equally culpable.

And that Rita, it seems like everything about how Rita's life has gone has led her to consider herself culpable as well. And like the fact that she apologizes to Viv like, broke my heart in a way that I think that, I don't know, maybe I'm like overthinking it, but I felt like the movie understood that it wasn't Rita's fault, but the way that that scene plays out from there does not reflect how I read the performance, how I read the scene. Like, to me it was like, Rita's saying something pretty complicated there, like that line that she says like sometimes a person gets so hungry and she's saying this in another in like minionese, but she's speaking minion as she says this. But she says sometimes a person gets so hungry

he might do something he's not so proud of. I'm sorry you had to see it. I love you. Do you still love me? It's like it makes me so sad. And I thought it was kind of a sad like kind of tragic encapsulation of Rita's character as someone who's absorbed kind of the comments around her. Like she is almost, I don't want to say cautionary tale because I don't, I like Rita, but she is almost like a bit of like what Viv could be like in her future if she kind of like believed the stuff men were saying to her almost. You know what I mean? And I feel like that line almost feels like a tragic, I don't know, a tragic example of that.

Yeah. I mean, that scene is, it's so hard. because I feel like it approaches saying something and then like kind of doesn't end up sticking the landing because it's like even in that dialogue, Rita is not saying this is my fault. I think she's more saying like this is how things are. I'm sorry that you had to see how I believe in how I accept that things are in a way that is like opening her up to this abuse. We know that very likely her uncle is doing this because he feels emasculated and is taking

it out by sexually abusing his own niece and that like none of this is okay but like this is Vivian's first time encountering this and she has to decide can I accept this and it weirdly feels like she decides that she will accept it in a way that I think many women of her generation did and that was I think what I really made me sad about the end of this and I hope is like a in process either studio notes being like it up or is like Tamara Jenkins like processing this in real time because again like I think there's a lot of women of my mom's generation who found or like sought empowerment by accepting it and just being like I'm going to move through the world anyways in spite of the fact that this is how I will be

treated in a way that kind of like lacks you know collectivity and and you know but but it's just so tough. Right. I mean, that we see Vivian confronting Rita about being assaulted and placing the blame on Rita and not at all blaming her father for his actions. It's reflective of the pervasive attitude of the 70s, of the 90s, and largely still today, that if a man assaults a woman, it was her fault, she was asking for it, whatever. So it's reflective of the attitude, but...

It's not really commenting on it, I guess. It's not commenting on it. And so when we watch this in 2026, we long for any kind of commentary on it or for someone, for Rita to be like, well, I don't know, like, it didn't have to be this big on the nose moral lesson or anything like that necessarily, but some nuance to that situation. But I guess I didn't even need Rita to recognize what was going on. I just, I guess wanted some indication that the movie recognized that what had happened was not either of their faults. Because I think that there is something to, like one of the shades of gray in this movie that

you don't usually see is that often because women are socially conditioned to accept this kind of behavior, generationally, they're not able to show up for people that you would think they could or that they should. And that, like, that's so clear in Rita and Viv's dynamic is that Vivian has also just been assaulted with a very different dynamic, but we know based on what we've seen this entire movie that there's no one in her life who, would be able to recognize that or even talk to her about it in a way that would be constructive for her or like help her whatever it is she needs to process there or around her body there's just no one there who can help her with it and we see that because it's like

this horrific I that's why I was like I do feel like that moment where I'm not and I totally understand for any number of reasons that that's the moment in the movie where a lot of people are going to check out. I do think it had narrative importance and that we cut directly from that moment to Viv saying, I don't want to breast reduction anymore. Yeah. It is so clear and intentional that like it is like a very, you know, like a kids conception of like I want to get rid of quote unquote the problem. I want to get rid of what I'm perceiving makes people treat me poorly and how they didn't treat me a year ago. I do think the breast reduction is almost the movie's attempt to kind of comment on the situation because I was thinking about like how it could have done so. And I guess

instead of Viv forgiving Rita as she does in the movie like maybe she could oh have a moment of like, oh no, you know what I actually like understand where you're coming from or like or have like a change of opinion kind of after Rita says that thing in Pig Latin about hunger. But I do kind of see the breast reduction as the movie commenting on the ways that, yeah, like a childlike way to comment on female sexuality. I mean, like, I've taken the movie to really, the biggest theme I've extracted from it is this idea of like learned womanhood or like compulsory womanhood. And like this, you know, you get to a certain age and you almost have, you typically have like an older woman mentor you through being a woman. And that can mean like,

oh, learning how to do makeup and like, you know, stepping your way into kind of like patriarchal society. And I do think that this movie is very much about that. And I don't know what the ending is necessarily trying to say about it. I don't think that she steps out of it at all. But I do think, I did feel that commentary strongly through it. And I guess like that's why I didn't check out at that moment either. Because I, to me, it like really piqued my interest. I was intrigued.

I also think Marissa Tomey's acting in the scene with the dad is incredible, like the wince on her face. And the amount of like complicated emotions that just like, run across it in like a split second is unbelievable. But yeah, no, I feel complicated about the scene, but I actually appreciated the movie for attempting to go there. I just think it could, yeah, it could have been a little more explicit for sure about its own feelings about it. It's so interesting.

I feel like we've talked about this on past episodes. Our episode on the women is coming to mind, but how so many past generations of women and like mothers or mother figures or just older women teaching younger women how to navigate the world. So many of those conversations and lessons are just like, this is men, this is how men are. Here's how to do your best to navigate it because there's that scene in the women where her mother's just like, well, yeah, all men cheat. rather than being like they shouldn't do that and we should hold them accountable. It's more just like, well, that's going to happen. It just is.

So here's how to navigate it. Or like learn how to like don't wear headphones at night. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. My mom, I remember when I was coming of that age, she started being like, don't sit with your legs open like that because I would sit in my pants with my legs wide open because I was a kid and that's all I knew. And I didn't really, you know, kids are in some ways genderless in a way.

And she would tell me that. and she wouldn't explain why. And so for years, I didn't understand why I couldn't sit with my legs open. And then even when I came of age, she'd be like, don't drink out of a beer bottle, like in front of your older family members. Like it's just, it was just, it's so many like learned gender dynamics that you're like, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And it's like if you ask them, but why I think this like kind of one of the scarier moments of growing up is realizing that probably your mom doesn't have a very cogent answer. It just is. And like that's so much of what this movie. something I think this movie does really well in a way that like I don't know

I want to rewatch Diary of a Teenage Girl now and we definitely should cover it It's so good It's really good I mean I love Mariel Heller But like I think something this movie does really well That a lot of movies about coming of age Across the gender spectrum don't

Is like presents a lot of very scary behavior from men that you would see in your everyday life. And like, again, I'm going to take the tub of music and the accordion out of the, because that to me is like this movie's biggest issue is the accordion music. But like creepy neighbor guy who is, you know, like who a teenage girl might be attracted to who will do absolutely nothing to do anything but take advantage of them. This is a person who we like probably conjure. someone to mind for everybody. Whether it's a father, uncle, like male relative usually.

Friends, older brother's friend, always. It's, yeah. I mean, like, I feel like, and it seems, I almost want to like, I don't know, I don't know very much about Alan Arkin as a person, but I think it is really cool that he took this part on because it is like intentionally in opposition with what his public image is in a way that I think is like really smart. Like we are socially conditioned to like Alan Arkin. And then he does he does these horrific things. And I think it really does like do a good job of putting you in the character's shoes of like, oh, I thought he was this person and he's not.

What do I do? And I just wish that it was a little murkier at the end of like, what do I do? it felt like, well, I'm going to do this, you know. Yeah. I think that's why I love the movie. Like, it is a bit of a, it lets you sit with discomfort, which I find really fascinating. But then I also find it challenging because it's generically like a romp kind of. It's a bit of a sex romp.

And that's complicated. And that's confusing as a viewer. But it's like, I think it just gets me thinking, which I appreciate about it. Which is a lot of like 70s movies, too. It's like sex romps that when you watch that are kind of dubious when you watch them back. Totally. But I also felt like this is, and maybe this is me overthinking, but like, especially because that assaults of Rita happens at the very end of the movie pretty much, very, very late.

And already, I mean, I didn't know that happened and I was very taken off guard when it does. Yeah, same. Because to that point, I had like noted several times of like, this family has very poor physical boundaries with each other. And maybe that's me being a repost. Republican or something, but I was like, this family is naked around each other so much. So much. I think specifically with Rita, who is like every family has a different level of naked that they are at the house.

I get it like with your siblings, with your family. That everyone's, it varies, right? I think that that reads a lot differently once we know the kind of guy the father is at the end. But what bumped me more than anything was Rita returning to this extension. family dynamic and just like that cartooning thing I felt like it undercut a lot of stuff that happens with her later in the movie where I'm just like what world are we in that like a 30 year old cousin is like oops I'm naked in front of everybody all the time like that I that confused me like some early Rita moments it's the extended familyness of it that's a little like oh yeah yeah I think

that's like where the farce comes in. Like she does feel like a character out of like a Monty pie. Like I don't know, something something of that era for sure. It's interesting though. Maybe the movie's trying to kind of like critique that archetype when it brings it into the more realism element of it at the end. Maybe not gracefully. But I'm like, I'm curious to know.

I'd be really curious. Yeah, whether she's introduced as a farce or like a romp character and then ends up being a little more like three dimensional. Yeah. I don't know though. I like drilled myself into a hole trying to understand how reading. is characterized at the beginning versus where her character goes at the end because I'm like, are we supposed to?

And I do think I was overthinking at, but I was like, are we supposed to think like because this woman is comfortable enough around her family to be like seen that that is what makes the uncle feel entitled to her later? But I just like could not quite make one plus one equal to with her like with the through line of Rita's behavior specifically. Viv I could track. Almost everyone else I could track, but Rita kind of confused me at different points. I think it's like the confused line between revolution exploitation, right? Like I think we talk a lot in my podcast about like the 2015 era. I felt like when I was in high school there was like a mini sexual revolution with like that whole

slut walk era like yeah, I'm a slut. You know what I mean? And coming of age during that era was really complicated because I feel like that and like the kind of indie sleeves like Terry Richardson era was this time where women were feeling sexually liberated. They were feeling like, oh, it's socially acceptable now to have sex. I'm not going to get called a slut or be ostracized socially. But men, then on the other side of things, really taking advantage of that and being like, oh, well, perfect. Now is my opportunity.

You know what I mean? Like, oh, you want to be a slut? Like, let's go. And now they can call themselves feminist while doing it. What a fun period of time that was. Yeah. Exactly. And like in diary of a teenage girl, once again, bringing it up.

But like, actually, I don't want to spoil the movie. But yeah, I think that's a major. element of it as well. Well, just going back to how Rita is characterized and the kind of all over the place nature of that, when she's first introduced and like running down the highway and flashes the truck driver who's about to run her over and were to believe would have completely plowed into her had she not flashed him. Yeah.

But she flashes. She opens up her gown. and flashes him. And then when he stops, she's like, she's doing this like, oh, she's like making sex moan sounds as she's like running and getting into his truck. And I'm just like, what is, what is going on with her? It's very like, she's crazy. Yeah.

And then when she like, when, well, okay, why does Vivian burst into the bathroom when she thinks that it's her brother in there potentially masturbating in the shower. So she like barges in. It's not her brother. It is her cousin in the shower. But then Rita opens the door and she's just like, boobs. Here they are. Here are mine.

Rita does feel like some of my friends sometimes. Like maybe that's why I love her because I'm like she is just like so some of my, some people I know in my life. Fair. Yeah. I'm always like, I don't know. I'm overthinking it because I know they were all like. like kind of projecting our experiences onto her.

But I was like, this would make sense to be in maybe a college-aged character. It is wild to be that she's 29 years old doing this. Where like I think of like older cousins who like and also being that older cousin. I was not a Rita. I was not really maybe quite hot enough to be doing what she's doing. But but the whole the whole idea of like having a sort of like younger sibling dynamic of like, oh, I actually have this information. And I and like getting to feel like you're the expert.

in like how to be a person, especially when you're younger, is like kind of narcotic and exciting. And even if you're often giving kind of like toxic, you know, like here's how you appease the male gaze, which is sort of what she's doing with like, oh, you have a mustache. You got to get rid of your mustache. And I vividly remember my mom in middle school being like, we need to talk about your mustache. And it's fine. Every woman in the family has one, but it's got to go. Oh, I was getting bikini me waxed age 13. Because I was in dance school. Oh, my fire.

Oh. Yeah, it sucked. And then you have the brother Ben, you know, using an outdated term for intersex people when he finds out that she has a mustache that she's bleaching and just like, the way that Ben talks about his sister's body is. But it's so clearly learned from his dad. Yeah. Like that is almost like, because I, that's.

That's why I wish that there was a little more specificity with how old other characters are, because I'm assuming that Ben is an older teenager, which doesn't totally let him off the hook, but like I think we're very much given the context for why he feels so entitled to be horrible to his sister. It's all he's seen. And just like this, and I know that this was like to some extent based on Tamara Jenkins's like being raised by a sort of single dad like this in a nomadic way, that like it's just such a horror situation to me to be raised by a man who does not really have any desire to understand you or any woman and you're surrounded only by other young men who are going to absorb that. Like she just has no ally and it's like there's a version. I think there's a version of me that like wants her and her older cousin.

to form a powerful bond in a way that I think if there's a version of this movie where if they bond more, that last beat is powerful in a different way. But also, Rita is twice her age. They're not peers. It makes sense that they're not connecting. They're at completely different stages of life. And so it's like Viv is given sort of this like maybe tease of maybe this is someone that you can connect with, but ultimately, like, she can't for all these reasons. Yeah. Can I also say we haven't mentioned one character, which is the littlest brother, who I've tried to make a tally in my life now of, like, unproccious children in movies, because it's

very few and far between. And I thought this kid did a great job, and that kid's kind of annoying in a good way. I was like, that's a little boy. Yeah. And he's just there. He's mostly just there. He has a few moments in the movie here and there where, for example, he's. he opens the oven and there's a dead cat inside that he's and he just holds it up like yeah he's he says he thinks

a chicken he has a little he has he has some he has some lucidity around the issue of class which is one of the things i think this movie does really well in a very period specific way of like class is a huge thing in this movie that every character even i think like the young youngest kid bringing it up in this very like matter-of-fact way felt so real in a way that like to your point my idea could have been really precocious like I mean it feels out but like a little abigail I like always think of Abigail Bresslin in most of her early roles when I think of this thing but that he he brings it up kind of matter-of-factly and they're all you know I think it presents class in this kind of cool way of like well yeah what the hell

do you do? And that my head immediately is like, well, they're probably hanging out because of like proximity to family and school systems, right? And he literally states that. He's like, it's the school system. That's why. And like it, I can understand from Alan Arkin's point, however misguided and I think like he is flopping as a father and it's not totally his fault, but it is a large part his fault. And I think that murkiness is kind of portrayed really well. But that like, what do you do in that situation? You want your kids to have some continuity in their life.

But also he is being selfish. Like it's so... And like interpolating his kids into the finances, like and not really protecting them from anything. Right. By way of, yeah, class struggle, I guess. it feels like he's still kind of striving in this like very American way where I don't know I mean the kids it's it's hard to know and maybe the kids are just too young to really know but it's like

they want stability more than they want to be in Beverly Hills it seems like right totally I read an interesting piece about how this movie is in conversation with the effects of gentrification. It's called gentrification and the slums of Beverly Hills. But it talks about how even though Beverly Hills is associated with extreme wealth, there has been income diversity within that neighborhood, perhaps more so in the 1970s when this movie is set than present day. but there has been a range of people and families with different economic backgrounds living in Beverly Hills.

But one of the many problems with gentrification is obviously that it tends to eliminate economic diversity within a neighborhood and prices out and displaces people. And so it kind of goes into that. We can link the piece, but. No, yeah, one of the earliest thoughts I had when I watched it was that it reminded me of the Florida project, just by virtue of like the intense income disparity between like these kind of pastel like motels. Obviously this motel is a different function than the Florida project, but like the ones in that being juxtaposed to like Disney World or Disney Land. Disney World. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And this being juxtaposed to yeah, like the upper echelons of like L.A. And yeah, I thought that was interesting. Yeah. I guess it's just like economic diversity anywhere is kind of flattened. And I think that like people still talk about Los Angeles at, and New York about this on a whole to this day in a way that is not intentional, but kind of ends up serving the interests of the very powerful where if you act like economic diversity does not exist, it is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And this family is kind of caught in that kind of net where the world kind of wants to refuse that they exist because it's not what we're told this area. supposed to be and so they're slowly getting edged out and we don't really have a ton of con oh the other thing

that i i saw referenced but i guess i maybe missed it in my viewings of the movie is that part of why he's struggling as a car salesman is because there is an oil it's like a 70s oil crisis oh sure yeah the yeah the crisis and again the the shades of gray that are introduced around class and around the dad it's not like he is like the worst he's a lazy asshole like he is going to work but he is not I mean I think if anything he's not like kind of willing to accept that his situation has changed in a way that's harming his family like he's in denial yeah that things are changing and that he's and also that he's aging and like all that scene with the brothers um I thought was really it's the only scene I think you get with just the brothers and I really liked it where it just made I do wish that again

I'm like I'm being a Republican but I'm like let's put some clothes on these kids I get it it's the 70s they probably didn't have air conditioning but let's get some clothes on these children please seriously they're oh the scene where they're eating tricks I'm like family come on but anyways I grew up in a clothes family so maybe this is just same I have a lot of friends who are definitely looser with the boundaries. Yes, I was like, my cousins were in a naked family. Yes, they're naked families out there. They're a naked family.

But it's like, but there has a creep. Anyways, but the scene with the brothers where the younger brother Ricky is kind of coming to terms with the fact that he has an old dad. And that is like something that is, it's an undercurrent theme in the movie that I know is like related to Tamara Jenkins's life that I just thought was. so well done. I had never seen that like shown in such a specific way. And, and I think it's, it was a really sweet moment with the brothers where the brother, where David Cromholz has to be like, yeah, man. Dad's oldest shit. Yeah. And, and he's like, no, because that

means my parent will die, which is like the scariest thing in the world when you're, you know, eight, nine, ten. I don't know how old. I grew up with an old dad and every day I resent him for deciding to pop me out at 45 or 46? Like, come on. King. Come on, man. You're so old. I want all the time in the world with you, sir. But now he's like a senior citizen. God love him. I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast. Hi, dad. But it definitely there's psychological effects for sure to being a child with an old father. Yeah. Yeah. I never seen it done quite in that way where it like wasn't tragic. And there wasn't an immediate consequence to it. It was it wasn't like, oh no, Alan Arkin is dead.

Even though it's so hard to not compare this movie, just because it is such a Sundance movie. I was thinking a lot about Little Miss Sunshine when I was watching this movie because it's Alan Arkin in a movie that was like made in a lab to succeed at Sundance. In a motel, he's always in the motel. He's always given.

What's going to happen? And it's maybe we want to rewatch Little Miss Sunshine, which I think is a far, a complicated family. presented in a far more, less complicated way. Like, Alan Arkin couldn't be a more different character, but he is in a motel with children a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to go back to this scene where Vivian is in the cosmetic surgeon's office, and I want to talk about it because we see a shot of the, the characters bear breasts. Now, again, the character is like 14 or 15. Natasha Leon was 18 or 19 when this movie was being shot and when it came out and stuff. And also, I'm not even sure if those are her breasts. That might be a body double.

They're not. As far as I know, from what I understood, and this, like, that she's where, I mean, they're fake, their silicone breasts that she's wearing during the. movie. Those are not her natural breasts. And something that I, again, just is a marker of both times, but I listened to a few retrospective interviews. To my understanding, the reason that we get those headless women of Hollywood shots is because their body doubles. So like you couldn't reveal Natasha Leone's head in that shot or Marissa Tomein's head because it's not her. But that just reading and listening to Natasha Leone and the director talk about this, I was like, oh my gosh,

I am glad that we are living in an era where intimacy coordinators are available because there were, even though Natasha Leone, I think, like, was an adult when this was being shot. The way that she talked about it was like it just sounded like it might have been nice to have an intimacy coordinator as an option just because they're talking about very like indie film run and gunning shots. I think one thing that specifically stuck out to me that I heard her talk about in 1998 and 2013 that seemed to really stick with her was the vibrator scene and feeling a little out of her depth with like not really.

I mean, also probably because it is like a period appropriate prop, but like that she, she wasn't really coached on what she was supposed to have been doing. She felt uncomfortable. everyone was a little frustrated with her for like not quote unquote doing it right but also she was like very recently she's still a teenager like i don't i wouldn't have known what to how to execute that scene as a teenager especially with like no guidance and there were a few anecdotes about the making of this movie that isn't an indictment of the movie but more just an observation about the time where it was like yeah that is a very young actor to put a very big seen like a sexually charged scene on and not have anyone there to be present for them before during or after and which it sounds like I mean in 1998 I'm not at all surprised to hear it it didn't sound like Natasha Leone was upset about it but it clearly stuck with her because it came up in almost every interview about this movie that she did across 20 years right so there's that

and then going back to that scene in the plastic surgeon's office we see this character's bare breasts, and even though the body double was of age, the character is 14 or 15, and we should not be normalizing seeing nudity of a character that is a minor on screen. I've said it before, I'll say it again. That shot did not need to be there. You can imply, it's already implied what the surgeon is doing. We don't need to, we don't need to see actual nudity of a child. There's a lot of that in diary of a teenage girl. Oh.

Which is fascinating because it came out almost 20 years later. Yeah. So just wanted to point that out. Yeah, I didn't know what. There were a few, especially like, I know that it is like capital T's the theme that we're talking about breasts. And there is certain, I agree. Like I, I don't know, I would not have included that shot if I,

I were Tamara Jenkins, and I wonder if present day, Tamara Jenkins would include it. I struggle with it when it's like, I don't know. It's like, at what point are you directing a movie that you are assuming bad actors will be consuming? Like, I, I do wonder that with the portrayal of nudity is like, are you censoring yourself for the safety of an, like, why are you not doing it? I guess this is my question. is like are you not doing it for the safety of the actor?

Are you not doing it because you were concerned that a bad faith actor is going to find your movie? Which I think is definitely true here because there were certain scenes I was just looking for commentary on and I was directed to porn websites. Really? Yeah, to port. Specifically around the scenes of like Kevin Corrigan feeling Natasha Leon up and like the more sexually charged scenes of this are definitely present on porn sites, which I found out. completely by accident. And so I think it is like a very, it, I don't know, I don't disagree with you, Caitlin.

Like, I think that it is like, I cannot think of a good reason to include it. But it, it's depressing the reasons that I jump to to why that is. Yeah, I do think it's a slippery slope when factoring in like, like a director having to factor in like the worst faith interpretation or like, worst faith audience of their movie. Like, I do think that that can go in negative directions or that can be like a massive of hindrance to art.

Not that I agree that necessarily these boobs should have been in it. These boobs. But who's, who's a difficult conversation because you don't know how far that can go in terms of like, like every, like if your movie's intended for a mass audience, it's like it can become kind of focus groupy or become kind of. So yeah,

it's a tough one. That's a, that's a difficult question to answer, I guess. Yeah. In the case of this movie, I think it is like not necessary. And a lot of the,

it felt very like of the time. And by that, I guess I mean of both times that every opportunity we had to cut to bare breasts we did. And, you know, like, that's not to say that we don't see, I mean, we see a lot of, like, people not wearing clothes in this movie. Again, we appear to be in a naked family. And it's, like, not like we don't see the boys in this family, you know, presented. And, like, they're not wearing clothes for a lot of the movie. But I also didn't like that. I also, I'm like, maybe, maybe I just really get that.

I didn't find that depiction to be particularly sexual. Like, I think, I think that's the thing is like it's not sexualized. That's like, yeah, I think that to me didn't feel inappropriate necessarily. Or just I feel like a lot of movies around this time has, like that's just what kids to me sometimes wear it seemed like it's like, you know, they're in a cold, a hot climate. But yeah, no, I agree. I feel like the issue with the Natasha Leone boob is that like it feels tacked on because it almost feels like a reveal because the whole movie they've been discussing her boobs. that at the end when the boobs are revealed it's like okay so this is kind of like an unveiling in a way and that's where it becomes kind of like eh like yeah it just doesn't like why yeah i didn't know

what the function of it was even supposed to have but it just felt a little i i don't know it felt edgy in a way that like but it's like i don't want to refer to like depicting breasts as edgy it shouldn't be viewed that way but again it's it's i think that breasts are generally framed in a sexualized way in this movie. Sometimes, and I think more often than not with commentary, but in the case of this shot that you're talking about, Caitlin, I don't think that, like, what is the commentary? It seems like it's just doing it.

Yeah. Again, this is an underage teenager. To me, there's, like, no gray area there. I'm like, we just should never see that on screen. Yeah. I agree. I mean, it's like, and I guess what I'm more talking about is, like, because we know these are adult actors,

what do we do with like implied age versus actor age and how do people internalize that? Like we've talked about this so much on the show. Yeah. I think we all agree that the shot is not necessary. But it is, yeah, it is like a really complicated thing. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about?

I just wrote down Robert, Roger Ebert made a comment on this movie that in Beverly Hills, money is not the only currency. And I thought, true. Uh-huh. Well-observed, King. Well-observed. Class and sex.

Those are the two things happening in this movie. When you accidentally said Robert just now, Robert Redford produced this movie because of, like, the Sundance connection. Tamara Jenkins, did she write the script during this Sundance? The lab, yeah. The lab writers program. Yeah. Yeah. So.

R.P. Robert Redford. I know. RIP Roger E. Burt. Yeah. And RIP, Alan Arkin. And Carl Reiner. And Jessica Walter. And so many people gone too soon.

And Rob Reiner. I'll just put that in there. And Rob Reiner. He's not in this movie. No. RAP anyways. Yes. That's true.

Okay. The movie does pass the Bechel test. Yes. Quite a bit. Wow. It is mostly between Vivian and Rita. And they're talking about all kinds of stuff. they're talking about their relationship to each other,

and they're speaking in multiple languages passing the Bechtel Test. Yes. And even though there's not a ton of, those are the two main characters, and maybe kind of the Jessica Walter character as well are the main women in the movie, I think that, you know, whatever, the Bechal Test is a metric that we've talked about forever, that, like, the absence of women, I think, is very intentional in this movie. I think it is, like, intended to further leave Vib. kind of out to see. I agree. But even so, we have many conversations.

Yes. Between women and girls, Vivian and Rita are talking about vibrators, breasts, tampons, bleaching their mustaches. Minasovare is like, get a breast reduction. Doris is like, here's an enormous pad. Now that we're listing off the conversations, it doesn't sound as great, but they happen. I'm like very, I was coming into this being like, oh man, my movie's going to fail the Bechdel dance, but I'm very impressed. By our metric, it passes. Doesn't have to be a positive conversation to pass.

Yeah, I'm, wow, cool. But what about the nipple scale, though? The Bechdel cast nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Oh, God. Really tricky. I don't really know what to do here. because it's it is exploring, you know, what it is to be an adolescent girl, lower middle class

adolescent white girl in the L.A. area in the 70s, existing in a society that is constantly leering at women, objectifying women, rape culture is abound, and how she grapples with that and how she tries to, again, exercise some control over that or try to take some power back. And so I think the movie's doing really interesting things regarding that. But for other things, as we've talked about, I don't think it's not clear enough where it lands or there's not quite enough commentary on the situation to my satisfaction. So I think I'll give it a split down the middle, 2.5 nipples just to make things simple. I'm going to give them all to Tamara Jenkins. Is it Tamara?

I don't know. I think it's tomorrow. It is tomorrow? I could be wrong. Okay. I'm scared. Tomorrow. Okay.

I'm tempted to go three and a half, which maybe feels a little high, but I, I don't know. I'm between a three and a three and a half. I think that there is a lot of stuff in this movie that feels unresolved, but never mean-spirited. And never I feel. And again, this is me judging by vibes. do think that this this movie is searching for something and maybe it's because it is like a first time filmmaker making a very personal story. I will say the last scene in this movie, the voiceover,

the way that the movie ends, I don't like. And it feels like it's kind of directly fighting with the really complicated themes that the movie is fighting. It's totally dissonant. The character of Rita never quite comes together for me. I feel like Rita embodies that tonal dissonance pretty squarely for me. But I also think that it's finding these dynamics that I haven't quite seen before. I think like the lower middle class is such a weird specific thing that barely even exists now, but did at one time. And is this kind of precarious delusional place to live in that is captured really well in this movie. And the, you know, coming of age into a cis woman's body is horrifying in a way that I think is also well captured without it becoming, you know,

probably this premise would be a horror movie now. And I don't let, I'm very sick of any woman's body and any marginalized body becoming the side of horror. And this movie doesn't do that. It's just presenting like, it just feels like shit to be told that you're doing it wrong all the time and also be constantly surprised by your body and have no one to turn to. Like I think it captures that feeling very well. And yeah, we talked about all of it. I think I'm going to go three. I'm going to go three nips. I'll give one to Tamara Jenkins,

one to to Natasha Leon and one to Rita Moreno. Why the hell not? Why the hell not? Maya, how about you? Okay, maybe I'll deign to go 3.5. Okay. I think, okay, I'm knocking the 1.5. off because I think that the movie has themes and plot that can't seem to agree with one another and that sometimes the plot undermines the intended themes of the film. Like you're saying, you're both saying like it's kind of unresolved, it's searching, and sometimes that can lead to somewhat harmful depictions that the movie seems to be trying to do the opposite of, or trying to say something in the realm of the opposite. But I do really appreciate and what's always struck me is where this movie is willing to go.

I think it's pretty unprecedented in its depictions of female sexuality and underage sexuality, which is really complicated and really difficult to depict. And I always appreciate when a movie is willing to do something difficult and is willing to make me uncomfortable because that makes me think. And I think we've talked about this for at this point, such a long, so many hours that it's like, I appreciate. when a movie is, yeah, willing to raise questions, even though maybe it can't necessarily answer all of them. Sure. I also just, I'm a little, maybe I have a libertarian film spirit, but I love a movie that I'm like,

don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me how to think. And I think, I love a movie that doesn't tell me either of those things. This movie made us all Republicans and Libertarians. This is a Republican libertarian Zoom call. And no, so Republicans love to be told how to think. Don't worry. Yeah, they actually secretly love how to be told me.

Yeah. But maybe I do too. Yeah. But I appreciate almost that the movie isn't trying to tell me what to think about what it's portraying, even though I think the ending is a little bit rushed. And I don't know, like, definitely like that half stars for Marissa Tomei, who has my heart. And I love her. I think she's so funny and weird in this, even if her character's a hot mess.

Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Again, come back anytime. Yay! Thanks, guys. Of course. Real quick, where can people follow you? check out your stuff. Plug away. You can find me on YouTube under the channel Broi Deschanel. You can find me on Instagram at Broi underscore Deschanel. I have a podcast called Rehash.

And I actually wrote a book about Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which I've been really bad at promoting because I'm new to that. So yeah, I wrote that. You can find it wherever you get your books or on IGPublishing.com. That's amazing. Thank you. And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast, you can subscribe to our Patreon, aka Matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where you get two bonus episodes every single month, always based on an incredible, amazing, genius theme. And Jamie and our guest, Maia, had to leave right before this outro. So it's just me signing off. Good-bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by.

me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan. With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. I'm Munga Chitigler, and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I talked to scientists, biopunks, cremudgeons, blues owners, super seniors, and Goa's

top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. To make it look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever, on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops? Hi, I'm Gary Valenzheno. And on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V, I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them. the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary V on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know, and we're submitting our most sciencey episodes for your peer review with our new stuff you should know doing science playlist. Out now. You want to know about Occam's Razor? Simplest explanation is usually the right one. We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is ever since the first time you saw.

saw Jurassic Park, well, come on down. So distill a nice pot of tea, everybody, turn down the gas on your bunsen burner, and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the stuff you should know doing science playlist on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Can superstars even exist the way they used to? 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture, where we still consume things in community. everybody wanted to be Beyonce at that point I don't think we'll ever see another what does it mean to be black and eat in America

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