The Bechdel Cast - Smoke Signals with Olivia Woodward

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Olivia Woodward take a road trip and discuss Smoke Signals!Here is the AFI video "A Conversation with Chris Eyre: Native American Identity in the Movies" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHt_LPjUQs(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @LivNative93 Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

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On the Pectocast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hey, Caitlin. Yes, Jamie? I have a proposition for a road trip, but there's a twist. and came out on the other side better people but it's gonna be pretty it's gonna be it's gonna be a ride it's gonna be a painful

ride and i'm gonna throw your canteen into a ditch i'm in all right let's do it i mean honestly it'll be worth it yeah it'll be worth it i love it. It sounds like we'll spend some quality time together. Oh, we're going to learn a thing or two about a thing or two. That's for sure. Wow. Beautiful. Welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus. And this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. Today is no exception. No episode is any exception, except maybe the human centipede episode. I would say that was maybe an exception. an intersectional feminist lens today is no exception no episode is any exception except maybe the human centipede episode i would say that was maybe an exception although that might

have been our most feminist episode well it's also the most feminist movie we've ever covered so it wasn't hard like what did we even say besides perfect movie, end of episode? I think that that's all we said. I think it was a one minute episode. But yes, that is what the podcast is about. But Caitlin, what the heck hell hockey sticks are, is, am the Bechdel test? Well, Jamie, I'll tell you. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test wherein our version of the test requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names talk to each other about something other than a man

and hopefully that's a narratively meaningful conversation we have an interesting uh we have an interesting movie in that regard today we have an interesting movie in that regard today. We have an interesting movie in every single regard today. I'm very, very excited to cover Smoke Signals. Same. And we've got an amazing guest here with us for that discussion. She's a content writer for A Tribe Called Geek. She's a citizen of Caddo Nation. It's Olivia Woodward. Hello. I am so excited to be here.

Nawi nawi. Kumbankia Olivia Woodward. Hayat hate atibosa. My name is Olivia and it is so good to see y'all. It is so good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for being here. This is like a dream.

I've been a big fan of the podcast for a very long time. So I'm so excited to be here. And this is like also one of my favorite movies. So awesome. Very excited. Oh, good. Amazing. Tell us about your relationship and your history with Smoke Signals. Yeah, so this is like a classic Native American movie. Everyone in my generation, older, I'm not quite sure about younger, but definitely older. All of us have seen this movie. This is like the native movie, maybe for like the US natives. I can't really speak for indigenous people in Canada. But I know for us, we quote I quote it with my best friend all the time. Very quotable movie yeah yeah so this came out in 1998 and i was a child um so i don't

think i saw this in theaters i think it was one of those where once it came out on vhs we all got together at like the community center and watched it as a group because it was one of the first mainstream native movies that we all got to see that was made by native people starring native people. So and then it just becomes like a yearly movie that you watch, right? Yeah, so Smoke Signals is recognized as the first feature length film written, directed and produced by Native Americans that reached a wide audience both in the U.S. and abroad so it's like a very significant film in that regard. Jamie what is your history with Smoke Signals? I had seen portions of this movie before in high school I believe and then also I

think I've seen like it's one of those movies that I feel like it's on a lot we talk about movies like this all the time like it's it's on tv a lot I'd see I'd watched it in high school because I had an English teacher that we did a big unit on Sherman Alexie's writing which I think I mean was I think for me certainly the only indigenous writer that we studied in all of school. Sounds about right. Right. Right. Typical American education. Well, you're lucky because we did not discuss any Native authors where I went. So that's why it's really cool to hear that you got that in your school.

I think sometimes it's up to the teachers on what they taught. And that was just something we never got in our curriculum i i very i mean and sherman alexi complicated figure um yes which we don't have the purview for really in this episode but like i want to acknowledge that but yeah in high school we definitely read the lone ranger and tonto fist fight in heaven which includes the short story that this movie is adapted on and I we watched it in class and I remember really liking it but I haven't like revisited the movie in many years and um I'm so glad that we're revisiting this movie it is such a it's like it there's so many reasons to applaud the director Chris Eyre for the tone that this movie strikes but for a movie that

tackles a lot it still is such a fun road movie and like you're saying Caitlin it's so quotable and it's so rewatchable and um yeah I had a great time watching the movie and I'm excited to talk about it Caitlin what's your history with Smoke Signals? I didn't have one. This is my first time seeing it. I'm really excited to talk about it. I wasn't expecting it to be as funny as it is. And it's also extremely, like you said, Jamie, it like strikes this really interesting tone where it's like very moving, very compelling. There's, you know, moments of intense drama, but there's also a lot of comedy. And it's, it's just a really interesting, fun story. So I guess with that in mind, should we just do the recap and go from there? Let's jump in.

Gotta close your eyes, though, when you do it. Right. Yes, I will be emulating Thomas throughout the recap. Okay. So we're on the Curdalene Indian Reservation in Idaho. It's July 4th, 1976, a.k.a. the Bicentennial. A couple, Maddie and John Builds the fire, is throwing a huge party at their house on the reservation. Then we get voiceover from Thomas builds the fire, who tells us that in the middle of the night after this party, a fire tore through the house, killing the narrator's mother

and father, but he was saved. He was a baby at the time who was thrown from a window, and a man named Arnold Joseph, played by Gary Farmer, catches him and delivers him into the arms of baby Thomas's grandmother. In the aftermath of the fire, we meet Arnold Joseph's family, his wife Arlene and his infant son Victor. Arnold mourns the tragedy of this fire by cutting his hair and turning to alcohol abuse. And then one day he gets in his truck and leaves his family forever. We then cut to 1998. Thomas, played by Evan Adams, and Victor, played by Adam Beach, are now young men. Thomas is, he's a sweet guy. He's a bit of an oddball. He always wears a suit. He has a propensity for telling stories and tall tales. Victor, on the other hand, has a bit of a prickly, cynical attitude.

They don't really get along with each other, nor did they as kids, because we flashback to Thomas and Victor as like 12-year-olds. We see a flashback where Thomas tells Victor that he heard his dad, Arnold, had moved to Phoenix, Arizona after Arnold left his family. Back in the present, or 1998 at least, Victor's mother gets a call from a woman named Susie Song saying that Arnold had passed away and that someone should come to Phoenix to get his stuff.

So Victor is trying to figure out how to do this, what exactly to do. And Thomas offers to help him. He has some money saved up and can help Victor get to Phoenix. But Thomas wants to go with him. And he's also like bankrolling the trip too. Right. Yes. He has a jar of, a huge jar of what looks like some like singles, maybe some like $5 bills, but it's mostly coins.

I love Thomas so much. You know, 1998 money. Honestly, that could get you a couple tickets. That's a house. That's a house. Basically. That's a house. Yeah. Yes. So Thomas wants to go on this trip.

Victor clearly does not want this. But then Victor's mom, Arlene, encourages Victor to go with Thomas, basically saying that it's okay to accept help from others. That's what a community does for each other. And she also makes Victor promise that if he does go, that he will come back. So then Victor goes to Thomas and says that he will accept his help and that Thomas can come with him.

So they set off, first getting a ride to the bus station from a couple friends who drive their car in reverse the whole time, which is never explained okay it's just kind of no so okay i'm not from a reservation but i have friends and cousins who live on a reservation and that's kind of a commentary on how there are no real like functioning cars okay so you just kind of like make do with what you got it's like they're basically the quintessential res car so that's kind of what where that came from got it so they get this ride and then they get on a bus where they interact with a few people including a gymnast woman from mississippi and then a couple

of racist white men throughout the movie we're also getting flashbacks of different things victor and his father victor and thomas as kids thomas also tells various stories along the way often about arnold how he was a hippie how he took thomas to denny's uh we also see a flashback of arlene begging arnold to quit drinking and that's when ar Arnold takes off and leaves his family for good we see young Victor be absolutely devastated by this and he takes out some of this kind of emotional turmoil on young Thomas so that's part of their kind of rocky relationship. Yeah. Back in the present, Victor and Thomas finally arrive in Phoenix and walk to Victor's dad's trailer where they meet Susie Song, played by Irene Bedard,

who is Arnold's neighbor who had called Victor's mom. So then Susie gives Victor his father's ashes. Victor is like in a rush to leave, but kind of at the insistence of Thomas, they end up staying and hanging out with Susie for a bit. Thomas tells Susie some stories, such as one story about a feast where Victor's mom fed a hundred people, even though she only had 50 pieces of fry bread.

That's my favorite story. That's the one. We'll be at powwow. I will be like, and she took the fry bread that's my favorite story that's the one we have powwow i will be like and she took the fry bread and she and you like you know that's where the story's going but the way he tells it it's just so like so cinematic almost he really sells it and i and my favorite part of every story thomas tells is when they cut to whoever he's telling the story to right after he finishes like this huge climax and then it like cuts to suzy and she's like yeah that was a pretty good story

yeah i love when he's telling the story to the two women in the car that only goes backwards and yeah they're like okay what do we what do we think was that a good enough story to like deserve giving you a ride and the one friend is like i think it was a great example of the oral tradition and then they like all crack up laughing it's it's so funny it's very sweet okay so then so thomas is telling stories we also get some flashbacks where we see suzy and Arnold becoming friends. We see Arnold talking about his past and his family, talking about Victor. Meanwhile, Victor is questioning the nature of the relationship that Arnold had with Susie.

She said that they kept each other's secrets. Victor seems resentful that she was close with Arnold while like Victor hadn't seen him for years and years. Victor is also reluctant to deal with his dad's stuff, a.k.a. deal with the past. Susie then reveals that Arnold told her about the fire on that 4th of July and that it was Arnold who had accidentally started it while he was drunk and also that he went back into the house to save his infant son Victor though Victor thought it was always his mom who had saved him and Susie also says that Arnold had wanted to go home and return to his family. He never, you know, meant to die in Phoenix, but that's simply what happened. So then Victor finally goes through his father's things.

He cuts his hair with a knife that he had found, and then he and Thomas leave early the next morning in Arnold's truck without telling Susie goodbye or anything like that. Emotions are running high in this car ride. Victor and Thomas start arguing. Victor's saying that Thomas holds Arnold in such high regard, even though he was a drunk, abusive liar. And Thomas is saying, no, no, no, he was more than that that and you just need to grow up and yeah your dad left your mom but you left your mom also and you're worse because you still live in the same

house with her and then your heart just goes like oh my god okay all right Thomas I mean you're right but geez he's so naive and yet so wise right So as they're yelling at each other, they nearly collide with a car on the road that had already crashed. This drunk white man is belligerent. He's trying to blame the accident on Victor and Thomas. Another woman in another car is badly injured. And even though the closest town is 20 miles away, Victor sets off on foot to try to get some help. He's running, he's reflecting on the past, we're getting a lot of images from the fire and just his past. He collapses in exhaustion. He has a vision of his

father helping him up. And then we cut to the hospital where Victor is recovering. It seems like they might be in trouble with the law because this drunk guy is still insisting that the accident was Victor's fault. But then they're released and Victor and Thomas head back to the reservation. When they arrive, they split Arnold's ashes and discuss their plans for laying the ashes to rest. Victor returns to his mother. Thomas returns to his grandmother. There's voiceover from Thomas about how do we forgive our fathers. And then we see Victor pouring out Arnold's ashes in a river. And I think that's, is that the last thing we see?

That's what, that's where I stopped the recap, but I didn't put a period. And I was like, did I mean to write more? And then, and then Thomas, you know,

there's, there's these Thomas interludes and it ends on and Thomas, you know, I would expect no less from him. He really puts a beautiful bow on the story. Yes. I am in love with Thomas and that's the movie. bow on the story. Yes. I am in love with Thomas. And that's the movie.

That is the movie. Yay! So let's take a quick break, and then we will come right back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed

the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart

True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl.

Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford

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or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Where do we want to begin? Olivia, does anything jump out to you right away as wanting to start somewhere? Sure. So I guess my, well, okay. The first thing I wrote on here to ask both of y'all is which of Thomas's stories was y'all's favorite? This might just be, I did love the fry bread, like Arlene splitting the fry bread in half.

That might be my favorite. But I also, because I'm such a Denny's head and he tells the story about Arnold taking him to Denny's like three different times, I want to say. I love that story. Jamie, you and I just went to Denny's together the other day. Literally yesterday. Or two days ago. Two days ago, yeah. We loved it.

And yeah, I really liked the Denny's story, partially because it seemed like it was Thomas's favorite story also. But I also, this isn't Thomas's story, but I really loved Arnold's story about the basketball game against the Jesuits. Yes. story about the basketball game against the Jesuits. Yes, just like the way that the actor like sells the story and the way I don't know. I mean, there's so many things that this movie does so like seamlessly and beautifully that like in the hands of a less capable director could have seemed so corny or clunky, but like the way that the timeline of this movie is constantly shifting

but it's never confusing and it's always very fluid and the way that the stories are illustrated in this like you can tell that there's stories as they're being acted out and like it's acted out in this like big mythic way in the way that the rest of the movie isn't. And I just, yeah, I just like, I love how this movie is crafted, but I really liked the basketball story as well. What's your, what's your favorite Olivia? Oh,

definitely the fry bread story. Oh, right. Classic. Don't lie. Me and my, my friend will text each other that sometimes like, and she took the heart.

So that's just the classic among us. Yeah i i always appreciate the way they portray the storytelling in this movie because so i grew up with my tribe i didn't grow up on a reservation i grew up i was known as an urban indian um because i grew up in the city but uh i was so very connected to my tribe growing up. And storytelling is an essential part of our culture, how we pass down our mythologies, our religions, our ceremony. And in movies that have Native characters that are not by Native people, the way the Native character tells the story is like always stoic and like straight faced. But that is not how we tell stories. That would be boring.

We wouldn't do that for thousands of years. Right. So I really appreciated how how cinematic all of them were when they were telling their stories, especially the dad. And a part that stuck out to me quite a bit that of course, like, made me think of a million different things is it's like a flashback. And Arnold is talking to young Victor in the car. And he kind of goes on a little drunken speech because he's definitely drinking and driving, which is not great. But the part that really stuck out to me a lot is it's the speech where he's imagining it's such a good day. I'm a magician.

I can make this disappear. And that's that monologue. Also a lot of monologues in this movie too. And the part that really stuck out to me was making the Catholics disappear. And going into this movie, you know, when I was younger, it was just

a fun movie that had characters that looked like my friends and family but as an adult I can really see how generational trauma affected my parents and affected my grandparents and that's like kind of what Arnold was um you know he didn't want to be a drunk but right I would assume that he his community was directly affected by residential schools and boarding schools. So I feel like that's kind of a hard thing for me as an adult watching this. It's hard to ignore.

Like, that is a big reason why Arnold is the way he is. But yeah, the speech in the car, that's also one of my favorite parts of the movie. Yeah. Okay, so you said a bunch of things, and I want to address a bunch of things. I have kind of like two general thoughts about the movie. One is that this is such a great example of a movie that depending on the viewer, so for example, if it's a native viewer, this movie gives them the opportunity to see themselves, their culture, their family dynamics represented on screen in a respectful and meaningful way. If it's a viewer who is, I would say probably you're just like average non-native person gives that viewer an opportunity to see

a culture on screen that they might not know that much about that they probably have some preconceived notions about because of other media that relies on stereotypes and tropes many of which are harmful and it gives those viewers a chance to learn about a culture from filmmakers who are from that culture. So it's like such a, regardless of who is seeing this, it's such a beautiful film. Yeah, it's really fun for me. Because growing up, I only the only other people I knew who saw this film was Native people. And I never pressured my non native friends to watch it, because I just assumed they wouldn't get it. But now as I get older, I don't want to say forcing them. But to have a greater, you know, to kind of understand me a little bit more. And I'm very

passionate about movies and media in general. So to understand me more is to watch Smoke Signal. So I have been having close non native friends watch it. So it's really interesting to see the reaction because I guess my worry with this film is that it's not relatable to non-Native. So it's really nice to hear that it is relatable. Well, that's my other general thought, which is, it's just a story about two young men who are dealing with very relatable things. They're dealing with generational trauma in vastly different ways. They are learning from each other. They are reconciling their relationship along the way. And it's one of those stories that, yeah, I feel like Hollywood executives would be like, this is too specific. This is about a culture that won't resonate with

your average American. Therefore, people won't see it and we can't make money from a story like this. But it's such a universal story about such universal things like friendship and reconciling your past and your present and learning lessons and dealing with family stuff. Both characters have a compelling

arc about things that are like, again, very universal and relatable. So even though it centers characters from a specific culture, one, that shouldn't matter. And two, it's still such a relatable thing that they're dealing with, that anyone can enjoy this movie I loved one thing that really stuck out to me with and you'll start to sense a heavy Thomas bias because I just really love and as I was watching it I remember feeling the same way in high school you know like when you haven't seen a movie in a long time you're like oh I was just as like oh he's the best in high school um but i really like how again this movie just like does so much with such a like deft writing touch that would have felt clunky in the hands of a less capable writer director um but the way that thomas is

referencing quite a bit existing media that portrays his culture that is made by white people and is way off the mark. I mean, they're talking about that in the movie constantly. And also, it's clear that Thomas is still influenced by that media because there's just so much of it. And I thought like the conversation that Thomas and Victor have on the bus where Thomas is kind of rattling off all these different depictions of indigenous people in like American movies. And he's kind of making fun of it.

But Victor's like, oh, you've probably seen Dances with Wolves 200 times. And he's kind of bullshitting. But then Thomas is like, well, maybe I have. you've probably seen dances with wolves 200 times and he's kind of bullshitting but then but thomas is like well maybe i have and it just like the the movie very like seamlessly addresses how poorly indigenous people have been represented in the past and like how little there was in terms of any representation that indigenous people were included in or didn't center around a white savior or and then and then you know john wayne's teeth is oh my gosh

i love that it starts out with them just like improvving that song on the bus and then it cuts to like diegetic or non-diegetic music. I never remember which one's which. But it's basically like a song on the soundtrack of this movie about John Wayne's teeth. And I was like, this is comedy gold, number one. Just amazing. Okay, so I don't want to assume anything. But have y'all been to a powwow before? I have not.

No. Okay, so what they are doing in that moment is what's called like a 1491 song. So powwows, they're drum groups. And so I okay, maybe real quick, don't want to assume too much of my audience. But a powwow is a gathering of Native people of all different drives. It's usually an all day event. And it includes dancing and vendors and socializing. It's usually an all day event and it includes dancing and vendors and socializing. It's really fun. Also there's ceremony involved. We will honor people, welcome people into the circle. And so there's always drum groups. I know in the South, so also I'm a native from the South and some of the things we do are different than natives from the North. And I feel like I have to

say that because I don't want to make it assume i know everything about all natives there are over 500 tribes alone in the u.s so but in the south powwows have a southern drum and a northern drum and some drum groups in order to warm up will do 1491 songs and those are like the funny songs and the joke songs so that way they can warm up so that's basically what they're doing so again a really fun thing for me watching this movie because i'm like oh that that's really funny and i've already seen that all the time i love seeing the movie and it's fun to watch it translate to non-native people who have never even been to a powwow and don't even have the context for that and can still enjoy it the same way that's amazing cool oh i didn't yeah i didn't

know any of that i would love to go to a powwow are non-native people welcome oh yeah non-native people are very much invited to powwows now like there are certain rules kind of follow what everyone else does um at all it depends again like where you are but in general native non-natives are very much welcomed at powwow is one of the few native general native non-natives are very much welcomed at powell it's one of the few native things that non-natives are always welcomed at and it's also great if you you know spend your money there right support the community but yes non-natives are very much invited um yeah and i i know there are there's a really large Native community in California as well. So I can steal some information.

I would love that. On the powwows that happen there. But yeah, powwows are super fun. That's why it's not really cool to be like, let's have a powwow when you're talking about a sales meeting. Because it's a real special thing that we do. But back to the conversation on the bus. It's a really fun conversation because again in 2022 oh my god we recognize too that they are criticizing dances

with wolves but natives at the time like my parents age and my aunt's age dances with wolves was a huge deal because they used actual native actors so that's part of the reason why thomas watches dances with wolves so much because at the time that's kind of like all we had and the 90s are really interesting time in native cinema it's kind of like um it's kind of like considered i guess a renaissance of native films because while smokeals is probably the most famous, we also got Dance Me Outside, which is really well known within the Native community, and Pow Wow Highway. And what I love about all of those movies is that they're funny. You know, even starting when Natives did participate in entertainment, and I'm going to go way back to like vaudeville time. We were always stereotyped as like the noble savage.

And that's kind of what we got stuck with for centuries, basically. And then in the 90s, filmmakers were able to get funding and start showing different parts of being Native. And yes, we all do tend to have a shared trauma and a shared history, but we're also really funny. How we get through it it so that was also really exciting too about the 90s and then I feel like there were some movies in between now but now in 2021 and 2022 we have tv shows like Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs so it feels like we're going back into another native media renaissance that is very exciting yeah definitely hope so a few thoughts uh when victor is asking thomas like you haven't seen dances with wolves 100 200 times and he's like

maybe it's you and titanic first of all exactly yeah i saw that coming from five miles away like they should have seen that damn iceberg the iceberg wow all right we suck okay we absolutely suck um what you were just talking about olivia in terms of um and i think we've talked about this before on the podcast especially on i want to say it was a matreon episode on what we do in the shadows where especially from like studios or anyone who is funding stories by marginalized people they're always like well you're gonna want to do this tragedy porn right because that's the only story you have to tell right right and obviously that's not the case and you know there's so many filmmakers who want to explore many different tones and genres and and stories and it and i just remember

commenting on how i loved that what we do in the shadows was a movie by indigenous filmmakers that is just them being silly vampires right so so for for smoke signals it feel even though it's like a lot of aspects of indigenous culture are referenced and are a huge part of the movie and pretty serious heavy topics are examined it's not the tragedy porn that a white hollywood exec would insist indigenous filmmakers to make. Right. So, yeah, I feel like it's,

it's just like another, it's, it's like something that is so obvious, but whenever it comes to like Mr. Hollywood stuff, it kind of goes back to that discussion where it's like a movie can be culturally specific and really funny and not a tragedy porn, which this movie is like a perfect

case study of one thing that i really love too that was very relatable is the conversation that victor and thomas have and victor trying to teach thomas how to be a real indian um is very relatable um especially as someone who grew up within the city around a lot of non-native people. One thing I grew up a lot with is when people saw, so first off, I grew up in Texas, which if you are brown with dark features, you're Mexican, right? So I grew up not being visually recognized as Native. And then it doesn't happen much anymore. But growing up, when I would tell people I was Native, they would be like, well, you don't look Native. And I'm like, what does that mean?

So their conversation was fun for me because the elders at the powwows, they would joke and be like, well, you have to look serious all the time. We're serious folk. And then they're like off laughing somewhere about cakes or whatever. But yeah, so I like that a lot because that's something, you know, Native people look different across the continent. So I thought that was a really interesting exploration. Like that's something I would want to talk about is like, what does a Native person even look like?

What is, there's no right way to be Natives. There are serious Natives, there are silly Natives, there are all kinds of Natives. So I really enjoyed that conversation as well because I feel like it kind of also tells the audience, you don't know what a native looks like. And that's okay. You just have to believe when they tell you, I am, you know, I'm native, and this is my history. So yeah, yeah, a part of that was Victor being like, yeah, you have to look really serious and mean, you have to look mean, or else white people won't respect you and your hair is

done up in all these braids you have to take out you know let your hair loose and he's like you know he's like kind of rattling off different things and thomas clearly takes it to heart for a little while because then you see and he's because he's also like you have to take off that suit um so then in the next scene you see what are you talking about i love his suit his suit is very cute his braids are beautiful but he like he like takes off all that stuff and i think he only looks like that for one scene because in the next scene he's like back in the suit he's back in his braids because he's like wait a minute i can present any way i want i'm myself like also real quick since we're kind of talking about the braids I'm pretty sure the actor who plays Thomas I'm pretty sure that's his real hair um but Adam Beach who plays

Victor I don't think that I think it's a wig especially when he cuts it off especially when he cuts it okay the wig okay I'm glad we're talking because the wig in the last and it's it's hard because it's like that's where a lot of the really really serious moments in the movie are and he's wearing this goofy wig like it's like i don't know party city they did him so dirty it was a wild it was a wild wig i usually have a good eye for wigs not to brag but i mean yes true i historically have a good eye for wigs I wasn't I I wasn't thinking wig for most of the movie but maybe that was just a better wig but the whatever the end the third act wig flop I don't know they did him so dirty I don't know I know why they did that he was like I mean the acting in this movie is incredible and to be undercut by a bad wig is just not nice especially

during the emotional like peak of the movie too i just when you forgive the sins of your father and you're wearing that way like a karen wig how dare they he's got a bob um i was actually wondering if you would speak to the significance of hair as it gets referenced in the movie, because there's the part at the beginning where it's mentioned that Arnold mourned the fire by cutting off his hair out of his braids because quote, an Indian man ain't nothing without his hair. And then when Victor is like, really finally, like coming face to face with his past, and he's going through his father's belongings and kind of reconciling all that he almost seems to like ceremoniously cut off his hair. So yeah, just if you could speak to the significance of that. Of course. Yeah, I actually wrote down notes on that. So hair, and again, I can't speak for every nation. But one thing that a lot of nations do share is relationship to our hair. It's considered kind of an extension of yours. I mean, technically, it's a second extension of your skin. So it's another way of kind of feeling the world around you. So the different hairstyles can mean different things.

But in general, whenever someone in your family dies, or someone close to you guys, you you cut your hair to kind of help with the mourning process. So it's kind of like, because the hair is kind of like an extra sensor to the world. And so whenever you're sad, it becomes more sensitive almost. So you cut it to kind of help process everything. And then with the new growth is also helping like you not only say move on, can't really move on from anyone's death, but to kind of like branch into your new life with your new hair. So it's like a very symbolic thing. Yeah, yeah. And within most indigenous nations and tribes, hair does not equate gender, like at all.

Maybe certain styles might, but having long hair does not equal feminine or masculine, really, which was a very weird thing for me growing up. Whenever like all these non-native boys would grow out their hair instead of being like rebellious and i'm like okay well you're barely washing it so i don't really saying anything um but because with native boys native boys and native men take usually take really good care of the hair the same way you know most women

are expected to um but yeah so one thing i noticed too in the movie is that Arnold basically never lets his hair grow back out. And I think that symbolizes his continuing mourning and also his continued guilt. Right. So yeah, that's kind of the symbolism of the hair that either it's Thomas's narration or Victor points it out that his that his dad never grew his hair back. And that being significant. That's thank you for for sharing that. And then it's like that, I guess, is that screenwriting? Is that the end of the second act?

But when when Victor finally cuts his hair and kind of that symbolizes that he's accepted his dad's death to some extent i mean i think someone here has a master's degree in this right is it well i would never mention it but i do have a master's degree in screenwriting from boston university um i wasn't really examining the movie through a structural point of view. But yeah, that does feel around the end of the second act. Yeah. Yeah. Before we move on to the second act, or move past that, I do just want to recognize the aunties in the car. They are so iconic.

And again, adding to how funny we are. Yes. Oh my gosh. I just, I love them so much. I just wanted to give them more attention real quick before we're done i mean they deserve all the shouts let's let's talk about that because i wish that i was um one of the only because also this movie is so like economical in the way it tells the story like it's a tight 90 minutes but I was I was kind of hoping that they would come back again I was I was bummed out I mean although it's like the the story reaches such a perfect full circle where you see them return home you see Victor give Arnold ashes to Arlene you see um grandma reunite with Thomas I love how much they look alike I just I love them but I

was just hoping that we would see the two women in the car again and get one more radio station shout out because I loved the radio station sequences are so funny there's so many fun motifs yeah the the traffic slash weather report on K-Res radio. Loved that. Loved that like fry bread is a motif in the movie. Yeah. Loved that Denny's is a motif in the movie. Loved that just like Thomas telling a story to anyone who will listen and sometimes to people who don't want to listen. And then always Victor saying, you're full of shit.

That's not what happened. There are also, this movie is like just chock full of well-known Native actors and well-known Native people. So the radio host is named Alex Trudell. And he's like a really well-known poet within the Native community. So it's always really fun hearing him. And then almost all the actors have gone on to do both native native projects and non-native projects the father arnold he is a reoccurring character in reservation dogs and he is so funny yeah adam beach is probably the more well-known name from this movie i think the most recent big project he was in that i can think of right now was suicideicide Squad from a few years ago. Yeah, I was about to say he's like Mr.

Superhero. Yeah. Michael Gray Eyes has a very short cameo. He's one of the basketball players in the first movie, one of the dreamiest people ever. He has done several movies. And right now he is a lead in Rutherford Falls. So it's just really fun to like, because I watched this movie actually in a couple of years. So watching it again, and I'm like, oh, they're in this now. They're in this now. They're in this now. And the mom, Tantu Cardinal, she, again, has done so many projects. She's very well known.

So these are all, like, very seasoned actors now. And so it's just really exciting to, back then, this was probably one of their first roles. And they have really all, like, blown up in the industry, too, you know. So it's really fun and this was uh chris ayers first feature that he directed and co-produced i want to just pull a quote from him that he said at a screening of another of his films entitled skins where he said quote the only thing you get in making period pieces about indians is guilt i'm interested in doing what non-indian filmmakers can't do which is portray contemporary indians and that's something that he seems to be very out like

passionate about and he he talks about this a lot because i also watched a youtube video ever heard of it right from the afi entitled a conversation with chris eyre native american identity in the movies in which he talks about the representation of native people in film how historically it has been extremely harmful and stereotypical. He talks about how he approaches representation in his own filmmaking. He talks about how to represent Native characters responsibly, especially if you're a non-Native person wanting to include Native people in your stories. So it's really interesting um it's like an hour long we can link it in the description but um i love how passionate he is about his storytelling and his filmmaking and representation and he just seems like a really cool dude yeah i actually um whenever

i was working on this episode i had a memory memory come back. I've actually met him. Oh, really? Cool. Yeah. Many, many years ago when I was in high school, I attended a summer camp at Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas. And he was one of the speakers one of the days. And I was fairly shy as a 14 year old but i still got the gumption

to go up and talk to him i didn't know what to ask him he was really nice he was pretty chill uh but what i do remember is him like not being very impressed by me because i was like how do you make a movie and he was like you just do it figure it out kid i was like what all right wow he was wild that's so funny also i was naming big name actors and completely forgot disney princess irene bedard who yeah voice pocahontas uh yes of course a movie we have yet to scale in uh in the purview of this show but i i knew i mean as a child who saw pocahontas quite a bit you know her voice right away oh yeah and she's i mean i every performance in this movie is really good um but she's like i i honestly was i forgot how what a short amount of time she's in the movie especially because she's like on the poster she's like the center

part of the poster yeah she's framed like she's the protagonist um right which is i mean but but like her performance is is so good and just i I don't know, the performances are great. To put a button on the Chris Eyre stuff, I'm very excited to watch that talk. And also, I mean, he's still very much like a working director. He was like 30 when he made this movie. And he's made like 10 movies since. And I was excited to learn more about his career. And I, I wonder, I mean, I want him to get access to like bigger budgets and projects.

If that's the sort of stuff that he wants to be doing. I don't really know what, you know, where he wants to stick, but I would love to see a huge budget Chris hair movie. That would give him a Marvel movie or whatever he wants. I feel like Marvel movies waste good directors. I don't really, I wouldn't wish that on him.

But if he wants it, then he should have. Sure. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption

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Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens

when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you, and it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman.

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And we're back. I wanted to talk about the, I mean, one of the, this movie does play into a joke we make on the show a lot, which is that ultimately every movie is about fathers and sons. Literally at the end, I heard your voice say that. I was like, she's right. Every movie on the face of the planet is about a father and a son and that is just a rule of movies that we cannot break but in this I mean in the case of this movie this happens to be a really really good movie about fathers and sons and so I wasn't mad but I I just like there's so

many smaller themes some of them culturally specific some of them universal. But I don't think I've seen a movie in a long time, at least, that explores something as complicated as grieving someone who hurt you as thoughtfully as this movie does. And it's not to say that like, the way that Victor andomas grieve and process are correct there's obviously no correct way to grieve but all of the nuances especially the way that information is introduced in this movie where you know very early on that arnold is holding something like holding on to a lot of trauma and so it's like this kind of back and forth of like you're like oh i you know you really feel for this character he's clearly in a lot of

pain but then you see him physically abuse his family and you're like well fuck this guy and then you get more information like i i thought that the way the movie is paced and written and the way that victor and thomas sort of approach like there's just so much going on like and how how am i going to process this and acknowledge and make space for my own abuse and healing which you can never make okay but can you get to a point where you can forgive for some people that's going to be forgive for some people that's going to be yes for some people that's going to be no but I just like I don't know I was I was crying a lot even through the wig I was crying crying crying just watching two very specific characters try to make their peace with such a complicated paternal figures's death especially because i mean i think one of the

things we always make fun of all these movies being about fathers and sons is that there's such an oversimplification of like complex family dynamics in a lot of these movies where it'll be like a dad is a crappy dad and so he has to become santa claus in order to redeem himself and i guess i am specifically referring to the santa claus because that's it always comes back always another famous denny's motif in american cinema it's an american institution but with this one i think it's just like you said jamie it's just it's handled in such a way that it just feels like a compelling story and not another like tropey movie where like oh my god i'm i'm a son or i'm a father and i need to figure this out in the like least nuanced way possible so like those are the

movies that that I make fun of this one it explores things meaningfully it examines the character's emotions I like that you see um yeah it does seem to hold arnold up on a on a pedestal and because he sees him as his savior he owes his life to him so he a lot of his views towards him are informed by that but he also recognizes like yeah this guy left his family whereas victor is just like pretty straightforward victor's a no bullshit guy yeah it's like stories are fake you're like every time someone tells victor a story he's like shut up that's you're pulling shit yeah um and yeah he's just he's harboring a lot of resentment in a way that like, I could certainly identify with and is, you know, very understandable. And like we said, there's no

right or wrong way to grieve or to forgive. And I think a lot of what really resonated with me, at least was the voiceover at the end. And I wish I had written it down. But it's when Thomas is saying, like, how do we forgive our fathers do we forgive them for doing this or doing the exact opposite of that and it's just like a lot of he's just listing off different behaviors and uh it ends with a question too like it doesn't tell you that there's one right way for this to happen I felt very like strongly connected to like Thomas's instinct to want to. I also sort of like interpreted Thomas's behavior of like sometimes it is easier to remember someone who hurt you and hurt people around you as this like heightened mythic superhero, which Thomas clearly wants superhero figures in his life.

He's constantly talking about superheroes. He has that whole speech before Victor chucks his canteen into the grass about like, you know, we don't have a Superman. We don't have a Batman. We don't have a Wonder Woman. And so just seeing him, you know, in some ways, I felt like elevate Arnold to this superhero that existed in his life. Well, it's like he does.

But then you find out at the end he knows like he's aware that arnold was not a superhero but i don't know sometimes you gotta tell yourself stories to get through the day and that's a huge part of grieving and and the fact that they managed to make this funny and like interesting to watch is just so wild yeah yeah um if i could also like provide a little historical context too i know i kind of brought up boarding schools but there are two things in play that i think can kind of help because another stereotype growing up was that me and my family were a bunch of drunk indians right, which is kind of shown in the movie, whenever they have parties, that was actually a scene that hits really hard for me is Victor, as a young kid around all of these drunk adults. For me, that's one of the harder scenes to watch,

because that was something that happened. And I don't think a lot of people understand how that generation got there. So just to provide like all context, boarding schools, I'm sure most of our audience knows were instituted by the US government to assimilate Native people. But one of the driving forces of doing that was through religion. So what they did is not only assimilate these kids and, you know, taking kids from their homes, starting in like the 1860s. That's like when the first boarding school opened. And then within a couple of decades, they were all over the country. The use of religion in boarding schools, I think, ended around the 60s. And that is because over those centuries, the US government, along with other

state governments, made it illegal for Native Americans to practice their religion at all. You could be arrested, you can be tried, you can be put in prison. So not only do we have these generations that didn't grow up with their culture. We have the generations that were forced to not speak their culture. And then you have the generation after that grew up without culture and identity. And that's very traumatizing. I'm very lucky because my mom did not, my mom and my Nana did not grow up with that.

My Nana didn't go, my mom's mom didn't go to boarding school, but my grandpa did. And my Nana's aunts went to boarding school. And so I grew up with those stories. But when you have no, when your culture's been stripped, when your religion's been stripped, when your whole way of life has been stripped, then you're put into these desolate areas of the country where you have no previous religious ties to the land.

What else are you going to do? You're also, they were provided to with virtually no food. So while the fry bread story is fun, we have fry bread because the government essentially gave natives flour and water to survive off of. So even fry bread still has like a tinge of kind of sadness to it. So of course, there's going to be generations of people that without that identity, what do they turn to? And a lot of them turn to alcohol. People always say that natives have a gene for alcoholism, and we're prone to it. And I disagree. I think that when you have all of that stripped away from you, it's hard to not turn to anything else. So I just wanted

to also kind of provide that because y'all are right the story of the father's son is so relatable and this is just an extra layer on top of that of how they ended up here right and like similar to a discussion we have a lot on the podcast about how oftentimes like for, when men write two female characters in competition, and they hate each other, and they're petty, because that's what they've observed, but they don't understand or can't see or anything like that the same way that yes there is the stereotype of the drunk Indian in media and that's just been put on film and put on tv and stuff without any exploration of okay well why might a native person be abusing substances could it be all the trauma you put them through perhaps exactly that's very helpful context thank you for providing that and yeah and and that just speaks

to when you have a native filmmaker who is the one like handling the the characters and handling the culture it's obviously going to be presented in a way that's way more informed and responsible than someone who doesn't understand all the context and all the nuances of everything and it's obviously why this movie is so interesting and compelling and thought-provoking and and kind of speaking to that and and like with that context I feel like it's even more it makes me appreciate even more that the movie again like very seamlessly gives you a range of experiences with how people are dealing with alcohol abuse where in the case of Arnold I mean you can argue I mean obviously his abuse of alcohol resulted in a lot of tragedy but I do like that you get to you learn by the end that he

was clean and sober I like that and that also kind of brings up we haven't really talked that much about Arlene outside of the fry bread story of quite yet but how when Arlene sees explicitly how much their abusing alcohol is traumatizing and negatively affecting Victor when he's throwing the bottles at the truck and he's very you know triggered and upset that that is like her you know light bulb moment of like it has to end now like we can't do this or we're going to like destroy our relationship with our son yeah and to see that moment and to see that be a moment that ultimately bonds her and and victor i thought was like really really powerful and yeah if anyone grew up with an alcoholic parent it's a moment that you're like oh where was that that's it's very cathartic

too and also you know victor is basically raised by his mom from childhood until adulthood um thomas is raised by his grandma and that is very reflective of how it actually does happen in the native community a lot of times it is the women that take care of the community not to like shit on men but uh i mean feel free have you ever heard our podcast before yeah uh there are many native men in my life that i love and appreciate but they would even agree that it is almost always native women native aunties and grandmas and moms that take care of the community and that really help keep us together so it was a very cathartic moment yeah when Arlene was like we can't do this anymore um and also too you know the night before they asked him who his favorite

Indian is and he said no one and you know so there was a very like I really appreciated that scene because I feel like it kind of had some resolution even though we're only like halfway through the movie at that point you know it kind of created a resolution a little bit for Victor so right and then when you get that part when Thomas is arguing with Victor and saying, like, yeah, I realized that your dad left your mom, but so did you. And you did the worst version of it because you still live in the same house with her, but you're just not there emotionally. And I hope that Victor takes that to heart. And when he goes back home, he like really puts in some effort with, with his mom.

And I feel like it's implied that it does happen. Yeah. They have that moment. I think. Another thing that I wanted to talk about was the various references to the characters kind of calling attention to how they are overlooked in American history, how they are mistreated by white people,

how they are perceived as unwelcome foreigners on their own land. A few examples of this would be when the two women in the reverse car, they like drop them off at the bus station. And then they're like, do you have your passports because you're leaving the res and going to a whole different country and they're like what are you talking about we're still in the united states and then the woman is like yeah that's as foreign as it gets like hope you got your vaccinations and there's mention of them celebrating that fourth of july party to celebrate white people's independence there's mention of them celebrating that Fourth of July party to celebrate white people's independence.

There's the two white men on the bus who steal their seats and displace them. And I mean, what is that but a very small scale allegory for like the displacement and colonization of native people in the u.s there's also that speech or that's in the middle of a thomas monologue um that same canteen scene where he's just kind of like referencing the anxiety of being displaced he like mentions columbus and custer and then kind of ends it by saying like even if we you know like set up on the moon neil armstrong would come along and like kick us out and and and the way that it just like factors into conversation in this very matter of fact way um i thought was like so effective and good for sure yeah well because there are like major differences between

native world and white world and that's how it feels it's a very strong feeling i think one of the bigger examples for me personally is that in my nation women are expected to be leaders and you're expected to like hold leadership positions and you're expected. There are a lot of expectations. And then outside of that, yeah. Right. Right. So outside of that is the patriarchy. I'm not saying there isn't like sexism within the Native community. That is influenced almost exclusively, though, by white people and Christianity and all of that.

That's not something that inherently came from us. So yeah, that is a big difference. And growing up, it was always a little weird having to go between the two different worlds because that's really what it feels like. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I thought all that was very effective, just like the characters touching on it

and reminding anyone who's watching who's probably not familiar with the way that white culture has affected and continues to affect indigenous people those parts of the movie um very effectively done does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie we haven't really talked about suzy oh yes yeah i love suzy i do too i really like i mean and i i do like selfishly i wish that she was in the movie more but i also understand why she appears when she does and why and i also like i didn't really remember because i think I got like gaslit by the poster where I'm like oh I think she's in the rest of the movie when like that's

not the case and I was sort of like oh is this gonna be a forced love story I kind of forget I don't really remember and I really like that it does not go that way where Susie appears I think almost exactly halfway through the movie she's Arnold's friend another person like Arnold was a vaguely paternal figure to a lot of people including his own son um but but this seems like and and there are a few bizarre asides where you know she says like your dad was a good looking guy he gave me the eye a little bit and it's like but it but it wasn't like that it would like ever and i think the movie makes that very clear but like he became this just like i don't know like i i always am really drawn to and i feel like it's never presented as a platonic friendship between a man and a woman but like two lonely people who become friends because of their shared loneliness even if they

don't have you know a ton in common like they do I mean they had some shared culture and they were alone and like just the way that that friendship is characterized and fleshed out and like how much it really clearly meant to Susie and how much she really wanted to get across how Arnold had grown in his final years to his son in an attempt to kind of like at least i don't even know if it like is helping grieve but like grieve with all the facts i guess which makes sense because victor like the whole movie wants facts but then when he's confronted with facts he's like i don't know you know like it's just which is such a relatable thing yeah you're like did I say I wanted facts I don't because for me it's the conflict of like yeah I'm glad he he's sober

I'm glad he sobered up but he never went back right but it's like if he had gone back too soon he still would have been an absent father so I think that's also what makes Thomas's monologue at the end so poignant it's like basically he did so much wrong it's hard to know what would have been the right move but and i also kind of feel the victor at the end every time i watch the ending of the movie my feeling is towards arnold is different every time um sometimes i'm more forgiving and then sometimes i'm more angry than i am forgiving and i think that kind of speaks to the effectiveness of how they portray arnold um and all the different viewpoints we get on him through Victor and Thomas and even Arnold himself and how he views himself because the the conversation between the two of them

about what's the worst thing you've ever done oh okay sure coming in hot there and i think that she's like it was one of the first times we ever hung out yeah i think so yeah i know i feel i feel similarly conflicted about arnold because i mean obviously nothing excuses abuse never but arnold clearly loved his son he was a victim of his circumstances of you know living in the cycle of poverty on a reservation you know again the generational trauma the it's also implied that he was and i can't because it was a story thomas was telling so i don't know like how inflated any of the details were but it is implied that he spent some time in jail also like in which is a whole other trauma to have to deal with later in life right yeah the other thing about suzy is that and i think it's just because i've been so

conditioned by movies to assume that if you get attractive young people in the same square mile they will kiss so i was like oh for sure either thomas or victor are gonna kiss suzy before they leave and that never happens which i also found very refreshing suzy's a lone wolf baby she's i i love i mean i love where they leave her story to where like she's, you know, it's not her movie, but you do get to see like she ends by burning down Arnold's trailer and kind of this symbolic gesture. And then she moves on and it's like she's on her. She's on a whole personal journey of grieving this very complicated person as well and i just i i love that the movie like takes that moment to let you know where she lands because i feel like a lesser movie would be like okay this character has served her purpose so let's you know move along i also like this is such a small thing and again i feel like just a demonstration of like

how many scraps um we're forced to look for in uh women characters but we immediately find out what she does for a living we immediately find out background facts about her like victor is like okay so where are you from like how did you grow up what do you do like just stuff you usually don't find out about women in movies ever um you find out that she was a nurse but now she works in health care administration she travels a lot it's exciting but it's lonely she grew up in new york which is already like 500 times more than you learn about some women who are the protagonist of a movie like i just was like right wow and and like such a a beautiful performance from irene bedard and i just love suzy and i know like i self like we were saying i selfishly wish she was in it longer but i

but i feel like the time that she is in the movie is so respectful of who she is and like gives you a full picture of who she is. And so I wasn't ultimately like, I don't know, like pissed off or extremely bothered that she wasn't in it more. I would have liked it, but I feel like the time she's on screen is used really really thoughtfully i think same applies to thomas's grandmother and who's i don't think we ever learned her first name i don't but um and arlene as well her yeah and victor's mom arlene where we don't get all that much screen time with them but when we do the storytelling and the character development is so effective and economical that you, you know, you understand these characters. You feel their struggle. Yeah, you're just you're compelled by their presence on screen.

So it ultimately is a movie about fathers and sons the women who are in the movie are fully realized characters that have kind of a whole range of viewpoints and generations and like there's a lot of variety in the women that we see and then there are moments that are about mothers and sons and grandmothers and sons and even if it's not the thrust of the movie i appreciate that it's there indeed i just wish there was more yeah that's kind of my only critique i do i agree i wish we had gotten more time with suzy i also wish or not wish i think that the story could have still been effective even without her being like and he used to eye me like uh that has every time I watched that,

I'm just like, that could do with that. Especially with the shirt. I know we're not talking about the Sherman Alexie stuff, but I was like, well, yeah. Yeah.

Should we talk about the Sherman Alexie stuff? I mean, maybe just to mention that I think it was in 2018. I'm guessing in light of me too yeah he was accused of sexual harassment by multiple women many people yeah it was very disappointing because i have read several of his books and they were very relatable and very important to me so it's very disappointing whenever stuff like that happens so yeah just why you know uh but yeah back to suzy um i just wish we would have had more of her i also liked

the way the conversation ran because again it's kind of how conversations with a lot of elders go like who are you where you're from who's, blah, blah. Not quite what's the worst thing you've ever done. But I liked the familiarity in their interaction. And whenever she did interact with Thomas and Victor, I think in the beginning, maybe it was like, maybe a little flirtatious. You could argue that. But it also felt like cousins at one point. Like, they had become so familiar because they have a shared relative between the three of them essentially.

So I liked that feeling of it as well. So while I do wish we had more of her, I think her time in the film was very effective and very memorable too. For sure. Yeah. Does anyone have any other thoughts they'd like to share? I'm just so happy that you guys watch this film. And hopefully after this episode,

more people will go watch it and support native films and TV shows. We're coming out, you know? Hell yeah. And this movie is streaming on Showtime right now. So if you're running your damn mouth about yellow jackets, you got to watch Smoke Signals because I'm mouth about yellow jackets you gotta watch smoke signals because i'm not watching yellow jackets i'm tired um yes please check out this movie if

you've listened to the episode and you haven't already seen it give it a watch other indigenous filmmakers and creators check out their stuff check out their their media and their art and yeah does this movie pass the bechdel test it definitely passes the bechdel test but do do does it the my question is do we ever find out what the names of the women in the car are oh that's a good question because they are named imdb but you're right i don't remember if anybody says their names to them i think that they so that caveat i'm always like oh well that usually means is it is it a character who is only on screen for like five seconds and they say like two words kind of thing they have a full extended

scene and are like significant enough i'm willing to give it a pass i'm just saying it's not hard to say someone's name right um sure yeah i think on imdb is it lucy and velma yeah so those are those characters names according to imdb. I don't think they're said aloud in the film, but they are given names in the script, presumably. So I would say that counts. And they have a whole conversation about drinking coke and loving a song. They're just vibing. They're vibing in the car. It's really fun. I feel it. it also passes the aila test absolutely shout out to the aila test yes shout out to ali nadi and as far as our nipple

scale goes zero to five nipples based on an examination of the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I would say even though this is a story focused on male characters and their relationship, like the core narrative is about like a reconciliation between different male characters, that's okay for a movie to be about that. If you do it well and you do it like it, and if you examine that thoughtfully. So even though women are not necessarily the driving force of the story, doesn't really bother me in this or a movie like this where it's well written and a well crafted story. That's what I like to see more movies driven by Native women.

Absolutely. 100%. Yes. It's not the job of one movie to do everything, obviously. Right. would I like to see more movies driven by native women? Absolutely. Yes. It's not the job of one movie to do everything, obviously. Right. Definitely would like to see more,

more of that as well. Certainly. Um, even so, I think that this movie is just really compelling and that it is like I said a movie that either lets some people see themselves represented on screen in a very meaningful and thoughtful way and for other people it's a chance to let them learn about a culture that they might not already be familiar with so yeah I think it's fantastic. And I'll give the movie, I'll give it four nipples.

And I will give one to Susie Song. I will give one to Thomas's grandma. I will give one to Arlene. And I'll split the last one between our friends Velma and Lucy in the car driving backwards. I will go. I'll go for as well. I mean, I just this movie is so wonderful for such a wide variety of reasons. We were having a conversation last night about like movies that are very very watchable and re-watchable and this movie is so

watchable and manages to tackle so much and if you are not familiar with a lot of native culture not to say that it's um you know it's obviously very regionally specific but i feel like there's a lot that non-native viewers can learn well Well, there's like it's just there's there's just so many good things going on in this movie. And it's also really fucking fun in spite of a lot of the heavier themes. The performances rock. I love Thomas. I love Susie. I mean, I texted you that Thomas, a.k.a. the actor Evan Adams, is like a dead ringer for a guy I used to date.

And so I like the second I saw him on screen, I was like, I have a crush on him already. And he hasn't said a single word. Anyway, sorry to interrupt to talk about my heterosexual crush. Boring. But that said, Evan Adams uh my heterosexual crush so anyways uh caitlin i mean i think we've we've we've covered it i mean i'll dock it a nipple because i do think that there was a little more space to include suzy a little more uh it wouldn't have killed the movie to include the names of the

women driving backward in the car, little things like that. I think there was room for for women a little more in this movie. But the story that is told is so beautiful, and does include women pretty significantly. And it's just I don't know, just like a very, you know, it's hard to sell me on a movie that's ultimately about fathers and sons but this is this movie is like undeniable because it tackles the topic so thoughtfully and it's such a an emotional journey um and I think that there is a lot to be said for the men feeling their feelings and processing emotions in movies very true yes you don't get a lot of movies that are about men processing their emotions towards each other like without like

holy shit beating each other well i guess young victor does they were kids you know but then they grow up don't know how to and then they have this beautiful emotional and i also appreciate that at the end it's not implied that they're going to be best friends now i always feel like it's kind of like goofy when it's like two people who right are they're not gonna like hang out every day but they're good they're like they've made their peace with each other they'll always have love for each other even though it's not like we're not gonna chill every day though you know like i just play basketball together all the time no thomas has to go do thomas things he's busy um he's busy trying on suits he has more suits to wear um i'll go for nipples and uh i'm gonna yeah give one to

each of the women driving backwards i'm gonna give one to suzy and i'm gonna give one to thomas olivia how about you so i also agree with the four nipples um i think i only duck a nipple because while the women are portrayed in a very nuanced way and circular way um you know in real life women talk to each other um and i not only famously i'll have to see it to believe it but uh not only do i wish suzy had more time but i think there would have also been room to see grandma and arlene talk to each other definitely yes just because to me that feels more realistic either talking about their kids or talking about art or just gossiping like that's that's the only reason why i wouldn't give it a full five nipple maybe like you know what i'm gonna do a four and a half because this is also a nostalgic movie for me

it holds a very dear place in my heart um so i'm gonna do four and a half i'm gonna give two to grandma because we love the grandmas in our community i'm gonna give one to arlene because she working real hard and then one to vic one to thomas and then the half to victor love it i don't think we can victor any yeah victor was uh he was hurting thanks for helping him out oh also um so as you can tell i don't have the same accent they do because I did not grow up on that reservation. But super quick story. Year and a half ago, I auditioned for a radio play that wanted to do that type of accent.

So you know how like whenever you try to do an accent, you have a phrase that you do? Mine was, hey, Victor. And I was just going around my house. Hey, Victor. Call my friend, hey, Victor. I love that every time they would say a sentence and then say ain't it yeah it is a little kind of like vocal filler also shout out to my favorite joke of the whole movie where victor comes in to cash his check from his

mom thomas is it's like in a like a store a market thomas is there and he says oh i'm so sorry to hear about your dad and victor is like how did you hear about that and he says oh i'm so sorry to hear about your dad and victor is like how did you hear about that and he's like i heard it on the wind i felt it in the sunlight i heard it in the trees and also your mom was in here crying about it also my favorite joke too amazing um well olivia thank you so much for joining us and being here to talk about this movie it was such a delight where can people check you out on social media if there's anything else you'd like to plug

plug away absolutely thank you for having me on this is so much fun as you can tell I love this movie so I'm always willing to talk about it you can follow me on all socials twitter instagram tiktok my username is the same I'm always willing to talk about it. You can follow me on all socials, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. My username is the same across all three.

It is at LivNative93. That is L-I-V-N-A-T-I-V-E-9-3. And I also am a content writer for a tribe called Geek. It's a website I recommend checking out. They have partnered with Red Planet, which also produces like comic indigenous comic books so we just had like a really fun fun meeting about a week ago just discuss our goals so i recommend checking that out if you want to know about native media and comic books and movies and all that fun stuff so yeah tribe called geek awesome.com incredible i just

want to shout out one more fun fact that we didn't i didn't find a moment to touch on but evan adams who plays thomas uh he's a doctor now he's whoa but he still does bit parts in movies but he went to medical school in 2002 so like a couple years because i was like why haven't i seen him anymore we talked about all the actors who really blew up and it's not for any lack of any i mean he just became a doctor and as of 2014 he is the chief medical officer of the first nation's health authority in british columbia so he's like an s-tier doctor so good for evan shouts out evan he contains multitudes wow yeah that makes me feel not great about my accomplishments i'm not a doctor yet but uh no seriously um olivia thank you so much for being here come back anytime and you can follow us on social media at spectral cast on twitter and instagram you can go to our

matreon gets you two episodes a month you get access to the back catalog of all the episodes and that can be found at patreon.com slash bechtel cast and you can get our merch at tpublic.com slash thebactylcast if you're so inclined. And with that, let's get in the pickup truck and go home to mommy. Vroom vroom. Zoom zoom. Bye bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated.

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