The Bechdel Cast - Sorry to Bother You with Sam Sanders

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Sam Sanders stick to the script while discussing Sorry to Bother You. (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @SamSanders on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante, and @jamieloftusHELPSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care.

Oh, look at you giving me we should care. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, listeners. Quick note about this episode. About 34-ish minutes in, there were some technical issues and we had to use some backup audio for a brief moment. So if some of the audio sounds a bit different for a short time, that's why. Otherwise, enjoy the episode. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast.

Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. Sorry to bother you, but... Wow. Would you like to record a podcast with me today, right now? No, I have... I'm stage four. I can't record a podcast today.

Please, click. Click. Oh, no. Oh, no. And then then a whole lot more movie hi welcome to the I think that went well I think our perfect the thing about our intros is that we're always giving it about 40 it's not my best effort most of the time well I that wasn't a personal attack mine are are operating on a lower level I would say well I usually just say the name of the movie and then we start look look we're off to a start welcome to the Bechtel cast my name is Jamie Loftus my name is Caitlin

Durante and this is our show where we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, just trying to get a conversation going. Yes. Do we regret naming it this after all these years? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 100%. But it's unfortunately too late. It's too late.

Okay. Today, I'm so excited for the movie we're covering today. A popular request since it came out um should we say what the bechdel test is though first or do we not want to do that i guess let's do it oh can i do it please so the bechdel test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist allison bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. A lot of versions of the test. The one we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. Surprisingly relevant to this movie, but it's our jumping off point for discussion. And what is this movie, Jamie? Today's movie, we've been getting requests for

basically since it came out four years ago. We're super excited to finally be covering it. It's Sorry to Bother You, Boots Riley, 2018. And we have an incredible guest to discuss this movie with. Let's get him in the mix. We really do. He is the host of two weekly podcasts, Intuit from Vulture and Vibe Check from Stitcher. It's Sam Sanders. Hi. Thank y'all for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for coming. You're welcome. Yeah, it's going to be fun. I can tell.

So much fun. We're fun. We're fun. We're so fun. So fun. Sam, what is your relationship with the movie sorry to bother you you know it's interesting so I remember when that movie came out there was so much buzz about how you needed to watch it because it's this commentary on late stage capitalism and yes do it and I watched it and I remembered it and then i want to say

who was the director of this film boots riley was it him yeah yes so then i was also enamored by the anti-oscars campaign he led yeah you know he was shortlisted there was talk of him getting some oscars for this film critics loved it lakeith Stanfield was great in it. And then he doesn't get nominations and he says, I didn't get any for this film because I didn't chase it. I don't play that game and I don't like that. And I liked that as well. And then later, when he was doing press for

some other piece of work he was doing, I got to interview Lakeith Stanfield a few years ago. So I loved him because of that. So in general, every time I think of this movie and my experience with it and the actors and the plot and the dialogue around it I liked it but then I re-watched it two nights ago through the Bechdel lens and things changed things changed yeah things changed that tends to happen with us yeah and there was like a fair amount of i i had

to like launch myself backwards in time and remember like there was that was sort of discussed when the movie came out but it wasn't a main topic of discussion which is totally understandable but yeah watching this movie with bechdel goggles on. It changes everything. It does change things. Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship? I saw this movie shortly after it came out, and I really, really loved it when it came out. I feel like it's just, like, I just love how this movie looks, too.

Like, every performance is amazing. It's beautiful. I feel like it's a peak bisexual lighting culture kind of movie yeah yeah yeah which we love i i love it i'm clinging to it uh but i feel like 2018 is where it was like peak bisexual lighting um that's how you knew something was about to happen um yeah i i loved i really loved this movie when it came out. I feel like it's one of the better, more fun to watch leftist movies,

right up there with Chicken Run. Does it top Chicken Run? Let's not pit them against each other. I love the idea of Chicken Run as a leftist film, now that you say it. You're right. Sam, you have to watch Chicken Run with leftist goggles. It's so much, it's even better.

Oh, I'm going to do that. I tell you what, I'm going to do that. It's a blast. But yeah, this was like one of my favorite movies at the time. I still really, really like it. And I also think for our purposes, there's some stuff to discuss that I think I noticed at the time, but was very willing to overlook because there's so many elements of that I think I noticed at the time but was very willing to overlook

because there are so many elements of this movie that I love. So there's a lot to talk about. And also, I think, if nothing else, I was not super familiar with Boots Riley as a cultural figure prior to this movie coming out, and I'm very happy I know about him now because he was raised by union organizers. He's the fucking coolest. I'm excited to talk about him now because he's like he was like raised by like union organizers. Like he's the fucking coolest.

I'm excited to talk about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I saw this movie in theaters during, I believe, the movie pass days. Oh, that would have been my movie pass towards the end. Yeah, I believe so. Movie pass.

Hashtag never forget. And it's coming back, though. It's coming back. Sorry to interrupt never forget and it's coming back though it's coming back wait at the same like in the same way it's different there's a limit oh okay that's how money works they forgot that the first time

and I loved that when you think about it movie pass was kind of it was like for the people you know it was an indictment of capitalism it was like pay ten dollars and get 30 movies a month i don't know much about the business side of what happened there it was it like for the people or was it just someone was like bad at being a capitalist i think someone had a really bad business plan and was banking on the fact that like people wouldn't go similar to how yeah like you know you like join a gym and

you pay a gym membership and you're like oops i've been paying this for six months and never went to the gym i think people were banking on like the but see here's the difference going to the gym is hard going to the movies is not exactly yeah i will buy a gym membership say i want to go and then not but if i buy a movie pass that just lets me go to movies i'm always going to choose to just go to a fucking movie exactly right come on you know what i'm saying i feel like there was kind of this golden age of like 2017 and then whenever in 2018 it got cut off where so many people have seen every movie just because it was possible i saw so many movies that i would definitely not have like paid ten dollars even ten i mean and that's like using 15 years ago prices i saw itania 13 times

on movie pass look wait stop what really yes it's the sickest thing about me margot robbie was great on MoviePass. Look. Wait, stop. What? Really? Yes, it's the sickest thing about me. Margot Robbie was great in that role. She wasn't that great. Look, Sam, you've never been me at my absolute lowest if you haven't seen I, Tonya 13 times at the Los Feliz 3.

My current I, Tonya is Dune. I put it on at night on the couch as a screensaver while i look at zillow listings it's really pretty and you can just constantly look at it because it's really pretty you don't care about the plot at all i mean i don't i couldn't even sit through it i just have it on as a screensaver it's it's a screensaver it's really good when you're on a second screen or when you're stoned wait excuse me this is an anti-drug podcast you can't be talking about getting thank you for whispering this podcast is brought to you by dare d-a-r-e uh screensaver movie is such a perfect description oh that's like that is a whole

genre but i've never heard it described oh listen and i love them all i love them all okay every bos lorman movie screensaver movie anyways go ahead oh okay i would i mean some of them are also good but like in terms of screensaver movie it needs to just be so visual and beautiful that you can enjoy it with the volume off. To me, Baz Luhrmann movies are too chaotic to be screensavers. I feel like you need like a soothing, slow, just like not really much happening. Okay, I hear that. Although I would watch Romeo plus Juliet on mute.

Yes. It's beautiful. It might actually be more palatable that way. Some might say, yeah, some Baz Luhrmann works could be better on mute. That's how I've been doing the new Lord of the Rings series. Cause I know it's pretty. I know that like Lord of the Rings is never, I don't know why it's never going to quite connect for me, but I don't, I'm not mad at it.

I like having it around, but I also like pressure not to not watch it. Yeah. I just Marvel at the discourse. Cause I'm like, I truly do not care. Like a few friends of mine were trying to like get me into the like black hobbit discourse last week and i was like i don't give a fuck i don't but good for you so anyway sorry to bother you yes yes yes sorry about that sorry to bother y'all with all that. Oh, no, no, no. Not at all. I mean, I feel like also our episodes tend to, like the tone of our episodes tend to

match the tone of whatever movie we're talking about. And this is a very chaotic movie. It is. So chaotic episode. It is. Good save. Good save. Yeah, of course.

So I saw Sorry to Bother You in theaters. I didn't know much about it except that, so like the marketing of the movie was like, oh, it's about this black character who code switches to perform better at his telemarketing job. That was kind of the only thing I knew about it. Didn't know it was a whole indictment

of late stage capitalism. And so I went into it kind of unprepared for all the stuff that this movie accomplishes. And thought it was really cool. Thought, yeah, just like visually, narratively, thematically, a lot of cool stuff happening. Lakeith Stanfield is in my like top five celebrity crushes also. He's also a really nice guy. Is he?

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. Well, if he's listening to this and lakeith you know we love you i interviewed him years ago and just so humble so down to earth at one point he was in the interview booth drinking this like charcoal lemonade cleanse purine juice or whatever oh my god finally i was like what the fuck is up with your charcoal lemonade and then he gave me a sip and it was good oh he gave you a sip on my i love that what a generous man he's great love you lakeith anywho as you were go ahead the things i would sip from lakeith stanfield that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying seconded anyway what an erotic thrilling experience I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Seconded.

What an erotic, thrilling experience. So it was an enjoyable watch, but I hadn't revisited it post seeing it for the first time until prepping for this episode. And I'm very excited to discuss. Yeah. So shall we get into it? I think this is the first movie we've covered in a while where the Bechdel test is actually a relevant point of discussion. And it's like, it's what we'll get to the reasons why but it was like a discussion at the time and have so many thoughts. Okay. Yeah. But first, we need to find out what happens in the damn movie let's do that but even before that let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture

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And we're back. Quick question before we start the recap. Yes. Do those earrings hurt to wear, do you think? They seem very heavy, I would say. They seem very heavy. Possibly, yes. Oh, the earrings that Tessa wears in the movie? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, it was a lot. The first time I saw her wear the earrings, it was cute. But by the end of the movie, because they keep changing them out, I'm just like, spare her lobes. I was concerned for her lobes. Because I'm sure it was like multiple takes for every scene, you know? For sure.

Yeah, she has to get, there should be some sort of rule on like lobe distress. I was concerned for her lobes. Same. rule on like lobe distress i was concerned for her lobes same i i just am rooting for tessa thompson to not be in any discomfort in her entire life same same i would second that motion yeah yeah okay so the plot of sorry to bother you goes as follows we meet cassius green He goes by Cash often. That's Lakeith Stanfield. Is that a metaphor for something? Green Cash. Okay, interesting. Green comma Cash. I'm thinking already. We meet him in a job interview. And despite having lied on his resume and bringing several trophies to the interview, he gets a job as a telemarketer at a company called Regalview,

where he will be expected to call as many people as possible and stick to the script. Then we see Cassius at home. He lives in Oakland with his partner, Detroit, played by Tessa Thompson. She's an artist. Cash expresses concerns that he'll die and nothing he did in life will matter. They then see a commercial for Worry Free, which is like a work initiative where employees are guaranteed lifelong work. They are given a place to live. They are provided with meals. And Cash is like, hmm, this is something to think about, especially because he's broke. He drives a shitty car. He owes four months rent to his uncle Serge, who is played by Terry Crews.

Yeah, it's kind of the Amazon factory on steroids. And you noted, Caitlin, I don't think i noticed this the first time i watched but it you know summer 2022 uh the people at work free are dressed like the minions 100 yes and that had to have been on purpose the minions were i mean huge is boots riley a minions head also sidebar the minions have been big now for like close to a decade That's crazy They're like the most beloved actors of our generation Minions acting geniuses Literally Literally

Did you see the newest Minions movie? And then I'll stop, I promise We both did The funeral scene Oh my god When they're singing My god I have not laughed that much since Soul Plane.

I swear to God. It's so funny. It was so good. It's so funny. I was blown away by how much I was laughing. The plane scene also got me so good. Yes. The plane scene, yes.

Peanuts. I love it. I love it. They are our stooges. Kevin Stewart and Bob. We digress, yes. But I do think, I mean, in 2018, Minions have been around since 2010. So I feel like Boots Riley, that was probably an intentional stylistic choice.

Right, because the worry-free workers, they're wearing blue overalls, I think a yellow shirt under that, and then yellow caps, almost like a swimming cap kind of thing that just make them look like minions kevin vibes such big time kevin vibes for sure because we talked about this on our despicable me episode because we covered despicable me what's the union situation with the minions it changes all the time in some movies they're paid in other movies they don't appear to be paid they have money because they contribute to grues go fund me to steal the moon so it's a little complicated we're not sure boots riley is thinking about it harder than um the writer of minions movies

although wait okay one last sidebar we we talked about, maybe we mentioned this. I don't know if I knew this the last time we talked about Minions, but Mike White is writing Despicable Me 4. Oh, Lord. So then it's going to have a bunch of plot holes like White Lotus did. I know. I loved White Lotus, but a lot of plot holes. A lot of plot holes.

But there were questions. I was just, I mean, I know Mike White can make a good kids movie. He wrote School of Rock, but I just was like, huh, huh, indeed. And good for him, you know? It's a worry-free Minions aesthetic. It's there. It's clear and present. Yes.

So Cassius arrives for his first day of work at Regal View. His manager tells him that if he makes a lot of sales as a telemarketer, he could become what's called a power caller, which seems to come with a lot more pay and perks. So Cash starts making calls. He always opens with the line, you know, sorry to bother you. And everyone hangs up on him. Then his colleague Langston, played by Danny Glover of Saw fame, of course, his most famous role, we can all agree. I was gonna say, I wrote Danny Glover parentheses of Saw. No, he was in stuff before Saw. Sam, I don't think that's true. He started with Saw. I'm pretty sure that was his breakout role. People are like, now this guy. This guy.

What a talent. Might I mention lethal weapon, which would not at all pass the Bechdel test, but. Feminist masterpiece lethal weapon doesn't hold a candle to feminist masterpiece saw. Saw. Word. Yes, yes. yes yes okay so langston tells cassius to use his quote-unquote white voice while he's making calls and cassius is skeptical he then goes to a staff meeting where kate berlant is there her character is diana diana debauchery such as all the character names in this movie are incredible

and she's so good. She gets like three minutes in that film, but it's a good three minutes. Oh my goodness. It's a solid three minutes. Yes. So she's kind of giving a spiel about, you know,

oh, they're a family and just like keep making calls and stick to the script. She's Mrs. Girl boss. Yes. We also, we've met this character before but salvador is there played by jermaine fowler um he is cash's like best friend and also colleague also there is squeeze played

by stephen yoon and squeeze approaches cassius after cassius had asked like can we get paid more money squeeze approaches cassius and tells him that some of the staff are trying to unionize. And then we see a newscast about protests at Worry Free headquarters because employees there are forced to sign lifelong employment contracts, which people liken to slavery, especially because they're not paid well their labor is exploited etc however the ceo of worry free steve lift played by army hammer denies these claims yeah yikes army hammer i will say it's like we and we don't need to get into army hammer discourse cause we would be here for five, 500 days. Um,

this would be our 500 days, 500 days of summer, 500 days of army. Yucky. Army hammer, like notorious abuser. And this is, I feel like the only kind of role that I feel like I can still watch them in.

It's like you, you can't watch an Armie Hammer movie even prior to anything becoming publicly available where you're supposed to empathize with him. This is the least empathetic character in the movie, at very least. Yeah. Still doesn't feel good to see him.

Uh-uh. But yes, because he plays the worst person. Yeah, the worst person in the world, at least. Yeah, a little easier to stomach yeah um so cash starts using his quote-unquote white voice which is voiced by david cross wait stop i didn't know that yeah really okay yeah yeah i like david cross that's a good white guy that's a good white guy go He's fun. That's a good white guy. Anyhow, go ahead. The famous people who signed on to do the white voices of black characters was David Cross, and then it's Lily James for Detroit,

and Patton Oswalt for Mr. Beep. Mr. Beep. Yeah. Okay, so Cash starts using his white voice at work and starts to make a lot of sales. And it seems like he's well on his way to becoming a power caller. And meanwhile, Squeeze, Salvador, and others at Regal View are organizing and trying to unionize and planning a strike.

Then it's the day that the Regalview callers, Squeeze, Salvador, Langston, Detroit, who works there now, as well as Cash and everyone else, they go on strike. But this is also the day that the managers at Regalview promote Cash and make him a power caller which he cautiously accepts so then he goes up the private power caller elevator and meets his new boss mr beep and uh played by in the voice in the power caller elevator is rosario dawson i learned today yes same. Beep is played by Omari Hardwick and voiced by Patton Oswalt, as we said. He tells Cash that Worry Free is their biggest client. Basically, they sell cheap slash slave labor to CEOs so that corporations can make bigger profits. And Cash is conflicted because he wants to be a part of his colleagues' movement,

but he's also trying to escape poverty, and he's trying to help out his uncle Serge, who's about to lose his house. So he's conflicted, and on his first day as a power caller, Cash makes the company a ton of money, and then he starts to earn a lot more money. He's able to help out his uncle. He moves into a nicer place. Real HGTV kind of sterile looking apartment. And Detroit is like, hey, dude, you abandoned your friends.

You sold out. The work you're doing is morally bankrupt. And he's like, well, I'm good at this job. And you're reaping the benefits of the money I'm making. And then she's like, well, if you go to work today and cross that picket line, we're through. Which he does. He goes to work. A protester throws a can of soda at his head, which becomes a meme and like kind of makes him Internet famous.

It's like the have a cola and smile, bitch meme. I had to, yeah, I had to also checked. I was like, this was intended as a reverse Kendall Jenner and, um,

Boots Riley has confirmed it was intended as a reverse Kendall Jenner. Okay. I didn't make that connection, but yeah, that makes sense. The Kendall Jenner Pepsi fiasco of 2017. I think it was. Yeah.

Um, so one night cash goes to Detroit's art show, which has very anti-capitalist themes. And she is still upset with Cash. And he leaves and goes to worry-free CEO Steve Lift's annual party at his house, question mark. Steve Lift is very impressed by Cash and all the big sales he has made. Then cash goes to the bathroom and finds himself in a room full of human slash horse hybrid people. Equus sapiens. Basically they have human bodies and the heads of horses.

Cash is absolutely freaking out. He he's like what is going on steve explains slash shows a video to cash that worry-free scientists have been turning humans into these horse people to make them stronger more obedient and more productive workers and steve wants cash to become one of these equisapiens and work at Worry Free for five years, managing the other horse people, but pretending to be their, as Steve Lift puts it, equisapien Martin Luther King Jr. And in return, Steve Lift is going to give Cash $100 million.

Smiley face. Smiley face. And I promise that after five years, he'll turn him back from being a horse person. Exactly. Like, that was one of the, I mean, and we'll get way more into this during the discussion, but, like, I liked that that detail was constantly thrown in

to, like, put Cash at ease, and it kind of, like like triggered different things in me of like different discussions you have when you're starting a job that you're like not totally comfortable with it with. They're like, well, you're not bad. You're just, it's just,

it's temporary. And then you can go back to being like who you are right now. But here's the thing that we know from that movie and from life, some changes cannot be temporary. Some are permanent right yeah and there's like some shit you do that can't be undone it's like it's oh man yeah i wish i could see this movie for the first time again because i didn't see well we're getting to it in a second but the the ending it doesn't feel good but it does feel accurate so despite the huge offer of money cash is like i don't want any part of this and he runs out he's still freaking out he can't find his phone he also thinks that the coke he snorted at steve's party might actually be the like catalyst that turns you into a horse person.

Horse dust. So he goes to Detroit for help. And turns out the equisapiens have Cash's phone and they had sent Detroit a video of them being like, please help us. We're in so much pain. And then you see steve lift come in and threaten to turn them into glue so cash then uses his fame as the cola and smile bitch guy to go on tv and expose how worry free is making these horse people but instead of it having negative consequences for worry freefree their stock drastically increases

and the general public does not seem to be outraged by anything that's happening i do like how like in the space of like two minutes this movie does what don't look up was like trying to do for two hours and it just like accomplishes it very seamlessly and quickly sure because cash can't even like make his point before he like is covered in shit on television like they won't even let him get to the point before he's been completely humiliated right exactly so then cash contacts squeeze and salvador to devise plan. And they break in and release the equisapiens who attack the cops who have been beating the shit out of the protesters at Regal view throughout the movie. So basically there's an equisapien uprising and then things quiet back down

and cash has reconciled with Detroit and Salvadorador and he intends to go back to regal view as a telemarketer and then the movie ends with cash starting to turn into an equisapien and then we flash forward to him breaking into steve lift's mansion presumably to kill him and that is the movie. Let's take another quick break and we will come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever Teddy Mellencamp.

And Tamara Judge, better known as the Twats. Yep, you heard that right. We're the hosts of Two Teeth in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week we break down every episode and give you our opinions. We cover it all. OC, Jersey, Beverly Hills, New York City, Dubai.

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Okay, maybe a lot of trouble. It's not really trouble when it's truthful. Let's just say we can be a little twatty. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In a galaxy far, far away. No, babe, that's taken. We're in our own world, remember? Right, in our own world. We're two space cadets. And totally normal humans.

Sure, totally normal humans. Embark on a journey across the stars, discovering the wonders of the universe one episode at a time. We'll talk about life, love, laughter, and why you should never argue with your co-pilot. Especially when she's always right. Right, and if we hit turbulence, just blame it on Mercury retrograde. Or Emily's questionable space piloting skills.

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Yeah, Sam, is there anything you want to kick off with? You know, I guess like my biggest takeaway, and this was my biggest takeaway after being asked to rewatch the film under the Bechdel lens, you know, when the film first came out, I think a lot of folks were saying there are several things in this movie's favor. It's an Oscar-worthy film, Oscar-caliber film, with a black cast

made by a black creator. We love that. This is an Oscar-worthy, Oscar- caliber film that is a critique of capitalism, an excessive capitalism. We love that. And I feel like those were the only messages that I took in when I first saw the film.

But as soon as you watch it with any Bechdel in you, you realize Tessa's character is a prop. She is a prop the entire movie. And you never really see her have her own life have her own interest or have anything to say unless she's saying it to Lakit's character or his friends or in one scene these shitty art collectors who literally throw sheep's blood on her as she's almost nude and it's like what i wanted the entire film was to see tessa thompson talk to her friends about her life and what she wanted to talk about and not have it be in service to the mission of the main character totally and i suppose this is

like the fatal flaw of many films but i'm almost mad at myself for not catching it the first time or two i watched the movie but as soon as y'all said watch it bechtel style it was like oh shit it's real it's real yeah it's uh this movie is i i feel like the the spirit of the bechtel test is like pretty relevant to this movie. And I remember seeing it discussed at the time, not, I think that it was, you know,

overshadowed by the very deserved praise that this movie received, but yeah, Tessa Thompson's character is, it's so frustrating because it's not like the opportunity isn't there. And it's not like giving her character more to do or even like cutting a different minor character in order to create the real estate to give her more to do it it's like the character is there it just doesn't seem like the interest in exploring the character was made because she and cash are under similar circumstances but the movie is mainly interested

in how cash deals with it i feel like the movie is even movie is mainly interested in how cash deals with it. I feel like the movie is even a little more interested in how Sal deals with it. And it ends up being like, I felt like by the end of this movie, even though you get moments, like I like the idea of exploring like, well,

what does art accomplish if you are talking about capitalism to capitalists like that's a really interesting question that is impossible to answer in the space of one art but it just felt like she was yeah she was used as a tool and you don't know really anything about her outside of the fact that she's an artist and she's like keith stanfeld's girlfriend and then as the movie goes on it almost feels like she's this like symbolic pawn in like well if she goes with is she gonna go with squeeze or is she gonna go with cash will cash get his shit together or will she go with mr union right and it just like i feel like it totally undercuts a really cool character they set up that we never get to like you're totally right sam she doesn't have friends to talk to there are no women present in cash's life outside of her that we know of

and even i mean i was even like hoping for scraps i think the first time i watched this movie it like registered for me but i was so blown away by what this movie does well that i was like well i don't know and then when i watched it the second time it's like we don't even get like some sort of bizarre contrived conversation between her and kate berlant like yeah they work together why can't we have that and they're like politically opposed yeah kate berlant has the most interesting monologues of all the management at the company Lakeith's character works for. They don't give you any backstory on her. And it's Cate Berlant.

Who can do it? She can read any lines you want to give her. She's great. It is wild to me, though, especially when I look at the Bechdel of it all and the colorism of it all. She's not just this black woman who is a prop for this guy. She's a very

light skinned, very traditionally beautiful black woman who is a prop, not just for this man, but a prop for these capitalist art consumers who get to throw shit at her. The color politics of it also feel weird, especially when you think about, all right right who is most hurt by the excesses of late-stage capitalism women and particularly darker-skinned people women of color yeah and black women yeah and so if anything a film that's a commentary on late-stage capitalism should be centered around women because they're gonna bear the brunt of the burden of all that bullshit. They always do. And there was like a fair amount, I mean

it sucks. I wish that this had been kind of a more public discussion. Caitlin, were you able to find any example of Boots Riley addressing this? I wasn't able to find a quote of that because he does tend to be like, he seems like kind of open to like having those discussions. I I wasn't able to find a quote of that um because he does tend to be like he seems like

kind of open to like having those discussions I just wasn't able to find evidence of this discussion specifically doesn't mean it doesn't exist I wasn't able to find it I did find him in an interview I forget which YouTube interview it was but you know I was kind of fooling around on YouTube ever heard of it sicko and the interviewer had a different perspective and said that um you know Tessa Thompson's character is so well developed how like how did you go about developing her and he said like oh I basically wrote myself into that character um I didn't like write down direct quotes but that but like paraphrasing is is what he said i mean which which i do definitely see because he's like an artist making uh making a you know you know making radical anti-capitalist statements yeah but in

doing that he's also like you mentioned sam like giving her a very like sexualized body centric piece of performance art. And he's like, I just it feels like a very valid criticism to say that he's like not putting black women's experiences like front and center in this film. And it undercuts what he's trying to say with the rest of the movie by making Tessa Thompson like a tool versus a character I and maybe it's just because the bar for developing women in movies is so low and especially for characters who are like the love interest of the male protagonist who get like usually zero characterization. I actually felt that Detroit got more characterization than we are used to seeing. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's like it was a shining example, but I would argue that we know more about her than we know about Salvador or Squeeze. Sure, a lot of what she does is very contingent on her relationship with Cash.

But the fact that we even know that she's an artist and we see her do her art and we see her like at an art show in a scene that doesn't need to be in the movie, but it was intentionally put there. I was, I was on the fence. Cause I do, I don't know, like all the mechanics that play in that scene where you're seeing her art. I feel, I feel like ultimately for me,

the concept of art was better characterized and explored than she herself was. And like knowing that boots Riley Riley saw himself as like, was, was putting a lot of himself into that, that kind of helps clarify it. Cause it's like, it's not like, you know,

being an artist that wants to use their body as a part of their art is inherently bad. Like I used, I do that shit all the time. So it, but it's like, because it's a straight man writing a woman's art like it just I feel like it gets so messy it did feel messy and the thing that really stuck out to me was

I felt she was framed as kind of like the prize to be won back yeah at the end when like you know cash triumphs and of course there's the very well-worn trope of a male hero you know getting the girl at the end of the movie as a way to signify like look how awesome he is look at how much he deserves like a woman's body and a woman's love like this is his reward for the heroic thing he did that felt pretty glaring and i kept waiting for that to be pushed back on in because this movie is so self-aware about so many issues but this is just like not really one of them well and it felt like they were trying to juxtapose almost these parallel mirror images of the way capitalism makes you compromise your morals through Lakeith's character and through

Tessa's character but the whole time we're seeing this complexity with Lakeith's character in this conflict and like he's really a great guy but he has to make these choices for the money ostensibly Tessa Thompson's character is doing the same thing making these artistic choices for the money to support her art but there's never time given to her to be that complex and to be that nuanced she's almost painted in that scene where the sheep's blood is thrown at her as a sellout and even though Lakeith is perhaps the bigger sellout in the movie he's never really painted as such he's always just compromised and in distress and has to do what he has to do that felt weird as well like there's a version of this movie where you let

them truly be mirror images and they both get equal time and equal space to be conflicted yeah that's because it is like the the question that detroit's character is exploring is so interesting and like one that is clearly and like understandably haunting Boots Riley and so it's like exactly why not give that equal precedence and it's almost more interesting because it's like I know the answer for the question you know capitalism that makes employees slaves is inherently bad yes we get that it's a much harder conversation when you talk about a responsibility an artist has to money right a responsibility an artist has to sustainability and keeping their art going that's almost a more interesting question to ponder and boots riley just didn't really do it and that's like a question

that's more relevant i mean that's like a question I think about all the time. I'm like, we have a feminist podcast on iHeartRadio. Like, so. Yeah, it's got to make money, right? Like, you have to make these compromises. Yeah. And those are, I mean. Listen, I read ad copy now.

And I'm just like, whoa, this is wild. Right. Like, leftist reading or ad copy. Like, for what? But but like that is the kind of like stomach crawling stuff that i feel like boots riley is well equipped to do i don't know why like even outside of the fact that they're i don't know i don't know and then it did he have other writers on this film or was it just him he's the only credited writer it was this was like a labor of love yeah for him as as far as i could tell this was something he was working on for years and years and years the full screen play was

published in mcsweeney's back in 2014 um he finished the first draft in 2012 yeah like yeah wow so here's the thing it's funny that you tell me that because it makes me think of a man a male writer that we mentioned before in this chat mike Mike White, who did The White Lotus. I realized the biggest critiques I had of that show and the plot holes that he let get through could have probably been answered or solved or spoken to if he had just had some other writers. Yes.

I think a lot of times we reward these often male writers for having this particular unique vision that they hold close to their hearts for a decade or more and make art and make work out of but it's like your work would be better mike white boots riley if there were women in the room people not like you in the room people who see the world differently than you in the room and you're still the boss you can preserve your central vision, but everyone could use some help in those regards. And I just feel like this is an example of a male screenwriter

having a great idea but not getting enough notes. Yeah, yeah, because it's, and with this story in particular, like I totally see what you're saying, Caitlin, about like we do know more about Detroit than we would know about a lot of like, quote unquote, love interest characters in any movie. And maybe it would like bother me less if there were other women around who we like gotta look into but because it's like the only woman we get to know and also the only black woman we get to know her her body is used to kind of half explore a topic that the movie doesn't quite land on an answer to and it's a who's she gonna pick thing i don't know it's just like and i i totally agree sam where it's like, if you had a woman take a pass, way higher likelihood that that would have been caught

and expanded on or like scaled back or whatever the solution would have been. Yeah. Definitely. I wonder, and I guess I want to ask, how do y'all survive as fans of movies, watching and reviewing and going back over movies with this critical lens? Do you just give up a lot of movies watching and reviewing and going back over movies in this with this critical lens do you just give up a lot of movies as we always say everyone is allowed to love whatever they

love whatever they grew up loving we just ask people to be critical of the media they consume you can still love something that you know isn't perfect and that has issues. I mean, goodness knows, I love a lot of problematic shit still. Because if you only loved things that were absolutely flawless when it comes to like intersectional feminist analysis. Chicken run. Chicken run. And that's it. And Mel Gibson's in that.

So you still can't, you know, love it fully. Right. We have nothing. We have nothing. We have nothing. There's nothing. So, you know, we,

we do kind of, you know, you do kind of have to make like compromises as, as far as your tastes and the media that you consume. It's just all about, you know, having the conversations about the issues in the things you love. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's, it's thinking about how different this film might have been if a woman were helping write it or anybody other than Boots were helping him write it. The thing that was lost in this discussion in the film about the plight of the low-wage worker is that a lot of low-wage workers

and a lot of low-wage workers who are women, who identify as women, they are often taking care of somebody else. They are often raising a child or more by themselves. They are often taking care of an ailing older relative by themselves. And the entire equation of how you work and how you live is affected by that reality. And I think the story would have had even more depth and richness

if the low-wage worker at the center of this movie were also a caregiver, were also a woman. Like, that's the reality. And I just feel like Boots Riley, Boot Riley's commentary

about late capitalism through this movie, it kind of ignores who is usually the default low-wage worker. It's the woman taking care of somebody else exploited worker right and the most vulnerable workers right yeah especially because like women not only have to deal with you know their labor being exploited in the workplace

they also often have to deal with sexism and sexual harassment. But instead we see in this movie, Kate Berlant's character sexually harassing Cash. Not to say that doesn't happen, but it's less likely. Although, you know, there's a conversation to be had about like white people sexualizing black bodies and, you know, black male bodies.

But I don't even know if the movie is trying to make intentional commentary on that right i wasn't really sure it wasn't even yeah it wasn't going that far yeah wasn't sure what the intention was but yeah you know women have to deal with a lot of extra things usually yeah yeah and i do get like i think we've had conversations like this before where sometimes oh i'm actually thinking of what was that sofia coppola movie we covered a bajillion years ago the beguiled the beguiled right where she was adapting an older movie that had a black character in it but sofia coppola said at the time well that's not my experience so i just wrote out the character which is such an absurd reaction i will say one thing about sofia coppola she is unabashedly white she doesn't she is not apologizing for it

i will say love the bling ring love the bling i still haven't seen the white chaos at its finest i hate that movie oh it's good but she i mean she yes she is she is aspen white she is boston white she is white white oh yeah and but but like that was and she i mean in the style you're describing like in the most white woman's style, she was like, well, yes, there was originally a black woman in the original movie. People had a lot of criticism of how she was written. And I'm not a black woman and no one else is writing on this movie. So I just wrote that character out. And you're like, that is the worst reaction to that.

And this is the thing with like people as powerful in the industry as Sofia Coppola. They can actually budget as many writers as they want for their projects. Right. Like it's a choice. It's a choice.

Like Boots Riley, you know what? Maybe this was a, maybe this was like a total indie project. He had no money, no funding, no help.

But Sofia, you've got resources. Right. Yeah. No excuse. She's just like choosing to be ignorant and erase people from

her narrative that she doesn't understand or care about like although it is predictable like i know what i'm in for when i watch a sofia coppola movie white chaos right like there's no question marks there truly so i'm not it's not it's not a one-to-one uh with that situation in boots rally but it does remind me of the critiques you were making about auteurs in general earlier, Sam, where it's like, oh, well, Boots Riley doesn't understand women's experiences, so he kind of

shies away from exploring them in this movie versus bringing someone else in who could help him more fully realize that experience and improve the movie. Right. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah well it's weird because like film inherently is so collaborative you've seen film shoots it's dozens of people doing this and then don't even talk about posts right like everything we

see on a screen has had dozens if not more people involved and yet so many writers are like i can only do this part myself it's weird yeah i don't know if it's an ego thing most of the time or and you totally it could have been a budget thing too and i know that this was like a you know labor of love for him and 3.2 million it's like a three it was like a three million dollar budget that's a low budget it's pretty low budget i mean i i love booth riley like i i feel like this is the sort of thing where it's like i would be really surprised if his next project came out and the same issues were present like it doesn't seem like unlike sofia coppola he seems like an artist who actively does want to like grow and learn and all this all this shit um but it did it was interesting

that it was like oh it it felt to me of like, well, I want to have, you know, these characters in the movie, but I don't fully understand the experience. So it's like, I'll just focus on more of what I know. And that's more of like Lakeith Stanfeld's experience, because Boots Riley also this story was like pulling from his own life where he used to work in telemarketing when he just started making music to make ends meet. And so it's like, even though I guess he's exploring the art side of himself through Tessa Thompson's character, the more like direct experience analog, at least at the beginning of the movie is the way Keith Stanfeld character.

Right. Fun fact. I did telemarketing years ago for four days i said there's no way in hell and i got paid out for four days of training it was great oh my god brave what were you marketing i don't i didn't find out whoa i think it was something cable related shout out west telemarketing. I think they're dead now. I, I don't know.

I have a, I have complicated feelings about this because I wonder if maybe it's just because the, the movie accomplishes and comments on so much else that I'm like, I'm a little bit more lenient with it because I mean, so many movies that take a very sexist approach to characterizing the women also are bad in many other ways. Yeah. But this movie, it has a strong agenda, anti-capitalist agenda. It's very pro-union.

It's pro-working class. It's pro-black in a really beautiful way. For sure. It's, you know, commenting on police brutality. It's commenting on cultural appropriation it's you know it's handling a lot of stuff and it's right and it's like no movie has to handle like everything i'd like but i i do feel like i don't know for the for the purposes of our you know what movie does chicken run chicken run the most progressive film of all time.

Well, in part because it's probably free from a lot of these constraints of race and gender politics. It's chicken. Because they're chickens. Because they're chickens. Although they are gendered, right? They are gendered. They're very gendered.

Refer to our episode on Chicken Run for the full discussion. I'm going to re-watch the movie and then listen to the episode. My evening is set. It's a chicken run kind of afternoon. It is one of our Patreon episodes so it is behind a paywall.

We'll send it to you. But also happy to contribute. Listen, I'm here for it. Did you just sell our guest on our Patreon? I am speaking to everyone who is listening who might be interested in the chicken run episode letting them know setting expectations you know no i totally agree with you and it's like and we never want to like set the bar of like every movie

needs to tackle every topic with complete realization and perfectly but i but i i think just for me like it's because this movie has such a strong progressive agenda and black women are so frequently um left out for sure of progressive narratives it's like worth mentioning definitely no doubt about it i do want to share a quote from tessa thompson uh from an interview on the Build Series YouTube channel. She was asked why she wanted to be in this movie. And she said, quote, I've always wanted to make a film that hung out in the space of magical realism. So many of the films that I love sort of use that filmically. And for whatever reason, there are never any black or brown people

in those narratives. So I just always assumed that I would never get to make a film like that. Unquote. Which, very true. Most fantasy, sci-fi, magical realism, surrealist. I mean, we were talking about the current Lord of the Rings discourse

somehow going on at the beginning of this episode. Like, it's ridiculous. Right. So, you know, happy for her that she got to be in a movie, like in the genre that she wanted to be in. But yeah, still. Yes, but I still wish that they'd done a better job with the character. Sure. Yeah. character sure yeah but also though if you are a black actor or actress in hollywood a black woman

in hollywood i'm guessing you're glad for the work it's still a hard landscape i mean it's much better than it was 20 years ago but like a lot of times you got to just take the job you take the job you know so i'm never going to like begrudge tessa for this role in this movie and i'm not even going to get that mad at boots but i am going to say like learn something from this yeah right and i just feel like he will like i know he will like and the industry has changed i think a lot that would have been okay when that movie was made isn't okay anymore yeah which which does which is heartening because this was only four years ago so yeah like i for listen like we're it is a smaller issue within a movie that's accomplishing a lot but you know worth addressing i'm glad i'm glad that we are discussing it yeah um i just didn't know i mean does either of you know a lot about boots riley's life before I knew who he was like I knew he was a musician but I just didn't know

that he grew up in in like a really really progressive pro-union like he was raised by organizers he like did all this cool shit like he went to Oakland High School and was organizing student walkouts when he was like 14 years old and just like his whole life has been defined by these causes of uh pro-union pro-black anti-capitalist organization and it is like so cool to see that like realized so clearly in a movie that is so good like it is it's it's fucking awesome it's good well and i mean like he is just part of a really large big looming legacy of like black people in the bay area specifically black people in oakland they've always been on that liberation theology they've always been radicalized fighting for justice this is where the black panthers are doing their shit

like there's a strong legacy there that boots riley is a part of and that's a beautiful thing been radicalized fighting for justice this is where the black panthers are doing their like there's a strong legacy there that boots riley is a part of and that's a beautiful thing you know it's like even in spite of the flaws that we've talked about in this film to see this creative artistic work that comes out of a long lineage of black activism in the east bay it comes out of that like that's nice to see that's great to see for sure it's so fucking cool like uh boots rallies the cool and it's like how many of our like we like you yeah our like big directors are like publicly identify as communists like that's wild that's literally so cool well and then even to see how we handled the whole oscar campaign

for it which was to not it's like good on you man like fuck the system right get bigger fish to fry like it's uh yeah nothing but love he's making a show right now what is the name of the show he's he's like that's his next project because i was like where where is he what's he doing? He's making a TV show called I'm a Virgo. That's all I know. Okay. But it comes out, I think, next year. About what? As a Taurus? I'm offended.

I can't relate. As a Leo, I don't care because it's not about me, so I don't care. Yeah. As a Leo, Virgos are frightening to me. But it is Virgo season, and it's a big year for Virgos are frightening to me. But it is Virgo season and it's a big year for Virgos because Beyonce released a new album publicly discussing

her Virgo-ness. Yes. Oh, she had a seven minute song called Virgo's Groove on it. She was in her bag. That said, I do feel like every year Leo's season is too short. We deserve six months, but whatever. I agree.

I agree. So shall we talk about what we feel the movie is accomplishing successfully? Yeah, and it's so much. It's so, like, I feel like this is one of the more, at least like modern movies that really clearly addresses pro-union issues in a way that is I don't I don't know what exactly how to like phrase this but like I like when movies show you like you could basically watch this movie and have some sort of understanding of like this is how a union movement builds but it doesn't feel like it's bopping you over the head with it you see steven yin's character like explaining it basically like through his actions

and also just because cash doesn't know a lot about unionizing he's just like yeah this sounds good but like what is it and i just like that over the course of this movie, you see them like build union power and see like the upsides of it. And they, you know, when they organize the like phones down moment, that is effective for them. And then like, but then also seeing the other side of it where people are losing their

jobs, they start to use police force to try to, to try to oppress union workers as, as the protests get bigger. And I don't know, there's not a lot of movies that have an interest in showing the ups and downs of that. And they win. It's like a hollow victory, but they win.

Right. Yeah. Kind of like piggybacking off of the police force being used, I feel like there's pretty active commentary on cops using brutality to protect the ruling class and their property. Because they are seen routinely in the movie beating the crap out of the protesters on the picket line for simply exercising their right to protest.

And they are punished violently for it. So again, not a lot of movies are interested in exploring that. And then on top of that, like there's, I don't know, revisiting it for this episode was fun because I kind of forgot how like nuanced that, because it's like the movie is very, very clearly pro-union, but the protagonist is a union scab like he's still going to work he's still getting promoted up the ladder and like he

ultimately you know quote unquote pays a price for it but i i did appreciate that it wasn't like like like his predicament was really clearly contextualized yeah Yeah. Where it wasn't just like, scabs are the devil. And while you don't, as a viewer, agree with what he's doing, you're like made to understand like why he's doing it. Because his uncle is going to lose his house. Like he needs income,

not just for himself, but for his family. And, and like making those choices under those circumstances are not easy. So it's like, should he have been a union scab? I think it's really easy to say no, but they also very clearly set up at least the reason why he starts to do

it. I think why he continues to do it is like capitalist shit. But the reason he starts is clear. And in the same way of just like in the space of a line, um, they contextualize Terry Cruz's like role as a landlord of it's really like, yeah, fuck landlords.

Uh, this particular landlord is his uncle and is going to lose his house. And it's like this whole domino line of who is exploiting, who is exploiting, who it breaks your brain a little bit right and again it's it's the movie exploring why people uphold the status quo that is capitalism often it's for survival reasons like capitalism does force a lot of people to compromise their values simply to survive and to like make enough money to have a place to live and to feed yourself and feed and take care of your family if you have one. And then as far as like once you reach that because Cash is then able to move into a nice place and buy an expensive car and all this stuff.

Why does he continue to uphold the status quo could be apathy and then it also like i i was wondering about that for like the mr beep character he is a black man but he's always using his white voice he tells cassius to always use his white voice we don't get any context for why he is making these choices but it i don't know it just felt like an examination of like how capitalism and gaining wealth warps a lot of people's brains and manipulates them into making a lot of ethical compromises yeah and and you see that right away when Cash starts his job, where one of the first calls he makes is to an elderly woman who he is trying to scam because it's his job to scam her. cancer and and just like breaks down in tears and then cash has to compartmentalize that experience and that you know like he knows but he has to eat and he had like he's gonna get kicked out of his

place and it's like you see right away that even when he's not getting paid he has to morally compromise himself in order to you know in the pursuit of maybe getting paid. It's just like it's so it's so fucking bleak and it feels terrible, but it's so well done. It is. Well, I'm like it like for me, like the things that I love about this movie are really lovable. One, it's really fun to look at. It's visually arresting and stunning and it just pops in a way that feels delightful even though the topic area is pretty dark. And then besides that it's a really great showcase of some amazing actors who are all doing really great work. You've got like Heath Stanfield,

Tessa Thompson, Steven Yeun, Kate Berlant. I could go on. Terry Crews is in there. There's a lot of good people in this movie. Danny Glover. Danny Glover. To see him pull this cast together and make it all work on a budget of $3 million, that's commendable.

So I don't want to dismiss that. Every actor in this movie is great, and they're all doing the work. Tessa's role is is flawed but she plays the fuck out of her role for sure and they're and and like you're saying earlier caitlin there's so much going on in this movie so the fact that like the landing is stuck on so many issues is like all while like these amazing performances are happening it's i mean this is like this is one of my favorite movies it's so good it's so good and it's like beautiful to look at and it makes you feel horrible right and i mean it takes some

pretty wild narrative risks too with like suddenly there's horse people in the movie i remember when that because that gets revealed maybe like two-thirds of the way through the movie and i was just like oh i was not expecting this. I was not expecting to see an enormous horse penis in my face. Um, and yet really wild yet. And yet the other, I mean,

I guess just on the, I mean, if we were unpacking every single thing this movie is saying about capitalism, we would be here for a long time, but just a few things that stuck out to me outside of, um, I, I mean, i love squeezes character not just because steven yun is also in my uh top tier celebrity crush pyramid but of course because

i i really like that there is a whole character dedicated to building union power the only thing i mean and i totally get why he's like, I should be Tessa Thompson's boyfriend. I'm like, you know, but outside of that, I mean, the worry-free commentary,

I feel like it's a really clear stab at Amazon warehouses and just factory labor in general and all the labor abuses that take take place there across the world like yes yeah well and that's also what i loved about this film like it was super on the fucking nose yeah you know right away they're talking about amazon and like thank you for that be like say it name it cash is green yes exactly i love it like it's so good. And then Squeeze says something like, when you're shown a problem, but you have no idea how to control it, you just get used to the problem. Which I feel is how a lot of people react to what I was talking about earlier as far as, like, people upholding the status quo of capitalism you're just like well i i know i'm like a corporate sellout but i don't know really what else to do or like what can me one person possibly accomplish to like unravel this institution so that you just sort of like get used to it quote unquote and like

he's just like boost rally is like making all these kind of like super leftist borderline actually communist talking points of the fact that I, and through the character of squeeze and also through some of like what Cassius fucks up where I thought like one of the most effective parts of the movie was the whole like viral culture stuff, which was super on the nose as well. But I just thought it was better done than I've seen it done almost anywhere else I feel like a lot of movies and tv shows right now are trying to like unravel that a

little bit and I like the idea that it's like you get Danny Glover's perspective on um I got the shit kicked out of me where you know like squeeze is oh, this is so fucking humiliating. This is so depressing. And Danny Glover's like, this is the best show ever. Like, that, like, just whatever. The whole, like, reality TV culture thing of, like, well, I feel like I'm getting the shit kicked out of me every day. At least I don't have it as bad as that guy. And then, like, the super simple, like, I forgot about it before re-watching it but that moment where the woman who throws the can at lakeith's head she becomes a viral star and a spokeswoman for the soda company i forgot about that oh it's amazing like that's pretty cool it's so small that yeah it's like

blinking you'd miss it but it's like yeah she also sells out because I'm sure that soda company offered her a huge fucking check to sell out the act she took at a union protest and monetize it into being a soda mascot. And how like cash has to like leverage his viral fame. Like would he be able to get on TV if he hadn't gotten hit in the head with a soda can probably not we're not and then when he achieves that he goes on like jimmy fallon and tells people to call their congressman which boots riley clearly thinks is useless because squeeze says that in the next scene where he's like you know people it makes people feel good to call their congressperson because they feel like they're doing something to address a problem. They actually have very little power to change. Which is like, I think, based on what I know about Boots Riley, it's just like his politics. And it's all done so smoothly.

And it also looks so cool. And that little undercurrent towards the end of the movie I just loved it it's so good right and then when um Cash tries to expose Worry Free for this like horse people thing they're doing it just drastically spikes the stock of Worry Free and no one gives a shit they're like oh W-free is even cooler than I thought on the news. They're calling it like scientific innovations from genius, Steve lift. Like,

and it's not until like a violent uprising happens that, and it doesn't even, I don't even know how much it actually changes the world. Cause then we just like zone in back on cash and he's just sort of like reconciling his personal life at the end of the movie but um and just the idea of like i don't know like it just goes against i guess traditional movie logic not that you're conditioned to believe you're watching a traditional movie at all when you watch this but like i remember kind of falling for it the first time where it's like by the end of the movie cash has he done a

lot of legal crimes yes but he's learned his lesson he's learned the error of his ways he's a union man now he's like back to where he started but with all the knowledge that he's learned over the course of the movie and maybe things are going to be all right but the movie kind of suggests like well the reality isn't that simple. Like he did learn something, but it's too late to go back to the way things were. Yeah. And then another thing that we haven't really touched on yet

that the movie comments on is code switching and Cash having to code switch to make sales and turn more profits for the company, which is based on Boots Riley, again, working as a telemarketer, you know, back in the day and finding that he needed to put on a different voice to find success, quote unquote, at this job. I've got a quote from him here yeah from from a guardian interview from when the movie came out yeah speaking to this point he said quote you try to obscure the fact that you're black just on the very basic level of trying to make someone feel like you're like them and on the more racist level of someone being okay giving you

their credit card information that's what i was pulling from unquote yeah well and like it was nice for me to see it just like made so plain and so clear i think like in other spaces no one is asking you to code switch but they're expecting it and there are like gradations of the code switch like i worked in public radio for 12 years and no one's ever telling you to sound more white, but you get it and you get who the audience is. And so to see code switching as a phenomenon and a problem punched up to like the highest level, I don't know if I'm refreshing. I thought that part of the film was handled perfectly because it's honestly true. It's still true in 2022 and then in addition to that so there are instances where characters want him to quote-unquote act more white and then other cases

where they want him to like lean into racist stereotypes basically that part where steve lift is like the army hammer yeah when he's forced to rap and he's just he makes this improvisational rap song where it's just him saying nigga shit over and over and over again this is after he got to that very room where he gets to rap nigga shit by talking white i mean it is a perfect encapsulation of the conundrum of black success in america you have to be both very black and not at all black to make it. And there's always some white person or white pressure or power telling you how to do it. It's weird.

And like he did get that right. And that's why it's like, you know, gosh, I wish he would have gotten gender better as well. But he got that really right and that steve lift wants cash he knows that his worry-free employees are going to revolt he's like yeah they're probably gonna revolt so i need someone on the inside to be a mlk mlk yeah and he's like and i'll give you 100 million dollars to do it because you doing that will like i can still spend a hundred million dollars on that that'll be chunk change compared to the billions he will make exploiting the labor of the uh equisapiens so freaky horse eugenics project yeah that whole

sequence like i mean and that is the movie goes so off the rails but it's so like it's so good the the sequence where army hammer like puts pressure on on cash to rap which he's like i i don't do that and he's like well yes you do because he's racist and then it's like on cash to empower this room full of white executives to rap the n-word along with him which they gladly do and then he goes which is like ah and then in that scene I just thought it was because like the Steve the Steve

character I feel like is like a you know kind of an amalgamation of all these billionaire white tech bros where it's like there's a little bit of Elon Musk in them there's a little bit of Dan Bilzerian and there's like a lot a lot of of Elon Musk in them. There's a little bit of Dan Bilzerian in them. There's like a lot of these fuckos are like all wrapped into this one character.

But I thought it was like interesting how the character like repeatedly really wants Cash to understand that he knows exactly what he's doing, but he's justified in doing it. Where he's like, well, I'm not evil. Or like when cash discovers the first horse person who like the experiment has gone wrong and they're in a lot of pain and he's afraid

he pisses himself and like he wants to leave steve lift's only counterpoint is like well no you should have watched this video before because like i don't want you to think i'm doing this for no reason like he's justified doing it to himself because he's like well it's i have a reason and like whether the reason is good doesn't matter he just needs people to know that there's a purpose it's just so it's right it's very fucked up the mental gymnastics that you know ceos have to do or who even knows what goes through a ceo's brain. There's a scene earlier on where you see an interview with Steve Lift, where he's responding to the claims that worry-free employment is basically slavery. And he's like, well, that's not true. Because people

are saying that we make the workers sign a lifelong contract under the threat of violence. And he's like, we don't do that under the threat of violence and he's like we don't do that under the threat of violence and therefore these claims are ridiculous and meanwhile he's running the company like the fucking c-org you're like this is so scary also contracts are just so fucking bogus period like they're bogus right it's funny like i've worked in media now for 12 years and the longer i do it the more you realize a lot of the shit they have the talent signing would never hold up

in a court of law they just have you sign it this shit is so like nobody should ever sign anything that has anything like a non-compete in it that's bullshit it doesn't like it can't do it I don't know sorry I'm just like sorry to rant here but like that part really spoke to me.

It's infuriating, yeah. Because, like, the very nature of contracts is fake. Right. Fake. And it's, like, predicated on the idea that you should be grateful for the opportunity. Exactly. They're like, yeah, don't read the fine print. And it's also predicated on the idea of a threat.

Yeah. The threat of a really binding contract is that you'll never have enough money to fight this in court. That's a threat. And so they can say that to you and know that you know that, even knowing that, like, the stuff in the contract isn't even that quite legal. But they know that you'll never have enough money to take them to court on it. Anyways, sorry. I digress. I just.

No, no, it's not. It's relevant. I feel like we should talk about this stuff more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. no no it's no it's relevant no i feel like we should talk about this stuff more uh yeah yeah yeah like i mean and it's like you watch you watch cash make these what he is able to justify we were talking about this a little earlier but i just again i'm like boots riley like knows his shit backwards and forwards where it's like it's not like i mean i guess that the 100 million dollar quote-unquote contract which is a fucking meaningless scrap of paper is the big compromise but cash is asked to make these little compromises over and over and is reassured that like this is

temporary you are a good person and that's like what cash responds to. He wants to like build a legacy in the capitalist sense, but he also needs to think that he's a good person. And so, which I think is like a more relatable struggle than a lot of people want to talk about. But it's like even that first scene with him and Tessa Thompson's character where he's like, I want to like make some sort of mark on the world.

And which is, I think think like whatever a universal feeling but how do you accomplish that without hurting somebody and so he has to be repeatedly reassured throughout the movie that it's like this is it's just for now and it's starting in that scene that oh this scene i feel like even more so than the Steve left a hundred million dollars thing. The first time that he makes the big compromise while there's a union action happening in the adjacent room where he starts off like saying, fuck you, fuck you and fuck you. And then within two minutes he's completely capitulated.

And it's, yeah. He's like, no, no, no, no. We're giving you a promotion and he's like

well all right then right i take back my fuck yous yeah yeah and you know why he's doing it like it's just yeah it's oh these things are very complicated and also that he he's good at what he does even though what he's doing is like evil morally bankrupt but he takes pride in like being good in his work which is a very relatable thing and another question to go back to Detroit for a second and a question I had about her character that I don't know the answer to I kind of think it like it would have been another way to look at her character because i don't mean this in a judgmental way but i was curious like it seems like in the context of this movie she like one day is like okay you've been a union scab for too long and now we need to break up and i was like what like why now how is she

able to justify staying with him for so long like Like all are just questions I would have liked to see explored through the story a little more without needing to add in like squeeze as a an alternate boyfriend in order to accomplish. Because it's like her politics are very clear. Obviously, this is a big problem for them. But as Lakeith's character points points out she's enjoying the spoils of what he's doing she's living in this nicer apartment she is like she is partaking and compromised in some way in the way that everybody is yeah i don't know it's just like another question that it was like that would have been cool to see her explore outside of the context of this relationship indeed does anyone have anything else they want to discuss?

I think I've given you all I want to give. Yeah. My last thing is that they credited the horse animation video to Michelle Dongree, and that made me laugh. Right. Hell yeah. Go, Michelle. All right.

So as far as the Bechdel test, it does not pass. Is that correct? It does not pass. It does not pass. Yeah. Women don't interact. I thought we would get a throwaway. We did not.

Not even that? No. And again, it's like not the be all end all. It is a metric that was made as a one-off thing, but it does feel relevant here. But what is the be all, end all media metric is the nipple scale, our perfect flawless metric. The one perfect metric. In which we rate a movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. And for this movie, I mean, it's a tricky one because again, it is handling a lot of things

very well. It's handling issues surrounding class and race extremely well and thoughtfully. As far as how it handles gender, though, as we've discussed, not quite so good. I guess I would, because of that, probably just split it down the middle and give it 2.5 nipples. I'll give one to Tessa Thompson. I will give one to the Keith Stanfield, my crush. Wow. And I'll give my half nipple to boots Riley.

Oh, I maybe I, yeah, this is, this is again a brain breaker because I think of all the issues, this movie explores effectively gender is maybe the least effectively explored issue right I'm gonna go three because I just think that this movie is doing so much right and it's one of my

favorites so I'm also biased uh but fair yeah I totally agree with what you're saying Caitlin I think that it is like worth discussing that there is only like one main female character and that she is very much used as a um I don't know she's she is more than just a girlfriend character I think that like I don't want to be reductive to the character of Detroit but it's just like very underexplored we don't have a second woman for her to talk to. And because, you know, black women's experiences are so underexplored in media in general, the fact that this huge leftist movie kind of skirts around giving her an actual narrative feels uncool. I don't love it. But I love so much about this movie. It's like the absolute fucking best um i mean again right up there

with chicken run and that's a huge compliment coming from me okay i'm not gonna put it there i'm gonna give it i'm gonna give it a two and a half i think like what i loved about it the first one or two times i watched it was not negated but put in different focus after i watched it through the bechdel lens and i just think that like we have to continue to ask men to do better and so boots do better you've got potential we love you do better two and a half yeah let's hope fingers crossed that there's a lot of uh good good shit in whatever the Virgo show is. Don't know. Get a writer's room. That's the answer.

Get a writer's room. A fully formed writer's room. Exactly. And make sure it's diverse. Yeah. Yeah. Sam, thank you so much for being here. It's been an honor. It's been a pleasure.

This was delightful. Where can people follow you online, check out your stuff? Plug away. Yeah. I am at Sam Sanders on both Instagram and Twitter. S-A-M-S-A-N-D-E-R-S. And I have two weekly podcasts. I have a podcast with my good friends, Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford.

We chat about whatever. It's our group chat, Come to Life. That show is called Vibe Check. Episodes drop every Wednesday. And then I host a show for Vulture and New York Magazine. It's called Into It. It is Vulture's flagship pop culture show all about the pop culture. We can't stop thinking about that show publishes every Thursday.

It's so good so wednesdays and thursdays find me talking to you and all other times find me at sam sanders wherever and you can follow us on social media at bechtel cast twitter and instagram we of course have our patreon slash matreon where you can find our Chicken Run episode, along with over 100 other bonus episodes, all at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. And then you can get merch over at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. Now, everyone, I gotta go kill a billionaire because I'm a horse. So I gotta get out of here. Same. All right. Bye.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

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