The Bechdel Cast - Spider-Man 2 with Sina Grace

Episode Date: July 6, 2017

After much consideration, The Bechdel Cast would like to declare that we are now an Alfred Molina fan podcast first, and a podcast about the portrayal of women in movies second. Our Amazing Spider-guest is Sina Grace, and boy was he patient with how horny our discussion of Spider-Man 2 gets.(This episode contains spoilers)Follow @SinaGrace on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

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Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. This is our best episode yet. My name's Jamie. My name's Caitlin. And welcome to the best episode of the Bechdel cast you're ever going to hear in your goddamn life. This is a podcast about the role of women in movies. Today, what is it about?

I guess we'll just find out. A wit movie? Today it's more like an Alfred Molina themed fan show. Kind of. I don't know. Like a celebration of him and his career. We should have warned our guest how much we will probably talk about Alfred. What's his name? Oh, my God.

Alfred Molina. Sorry, I had a stroke but um okay Jamie's obsessed with Alfred Molina I'm gonna try to steer the conversation away from him your crush had a large poster I'm we should have sent an email I had a large poster of Doc Ock in my room my parents thought I liked comics. I was just all horned up for Alfred. Wait, but he's not exactly the poster child of sex icon in Spider-Man 2. No, he's a beefcake. So it still works for you? I got into the beefcakes very early.

All right, real quick. So we'll give you a proper introduction. No, this is good. Let's just dive right in. So we have a podcast that's inspired by The Bechdel Test, which requires that the movie, the show, the comic book, whatever story you're consuming, it requires that there are two female characters who have names, who talk to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. We talk about that.

We talk about how women are portrayed just in general in the movie. And we have a great time. As you said, best episode yet. Yeah. This is our, I would guess, around our 35th episode. Pretty close. And I would say we've talked about Alfred Molina and I would say at least 27 of those episodes.

Conservatively. Yeah. Maybe 34. I don't know if we mentioned him in like the Heathers episode, but But sometimes he finds a way. Yeah. Because he's such a character actor that sometimes you see another character actor and you're like, well, I wish that had been Alfred Molina,

but he did fine. Right. That's how I feel about most Beef well, I wish that had been Alfred Molina, but he did fine. That's how I feel about most Beefcake character actors. Like, no Alfred Molina, but he did the job he was paid to do. Before we get too carried away with Alfred Molina, let's introduce our guest. He writes and draws graphic novels. He is writing Iceman for Marvel right now. He also has a graphic novel called Nothing Lasts Forever.

Sina Grace! I'm no Alfred Molina at all, dude. I think you're better. Fighting words between you two. I'm not involved. We'll hash this out over the course of an hour. We'll figure this out.

Let's see how I do. The movie we're talking about today is Spider-Man 2, parentheses, 2004, in case you're like, oh, what if it's the Andrew Garfield? No, it's not. It's Tobey. It's Tobey. Should we say it like Jennifer Connelly in Labyrinth? Tobey.

Oh, my God. I forgot that that's how, because Tobey's the baby, right? Oh, right. Baby Tobey. Tobey Maguire, we could make the argument of this maybe, perhaps, being the peak of Tobey Maguire's career so far. I think he's got another... he's got a second wind. Yeah, I mean, I'd say so. This is, you know, his biggest role.

And he's great. I think he's a really fun Spider-Man. I like him a lot. He's all right. All right. Well, what do you think, Sienna? He, like, looks like Peter Parker. Like, you can't shake that.

But he does this, he just kind of, like, looks dumb the whole time. Like, he's like, oh, I'm sorry I'm late. He's late a lot in this movie. Yeah. That's a couple different plot points. They really just like, because the last time I saw this, I was in high school, and seeing this as a grown-up,

I'm like, man, they just really beat down the themes on the viewer. They're just like, all right, our average viewer is seven, so we really need to just be like, Peter Parker's always late because he's Spider-Man and he doesn't know what to do. There's been a disturbance.

That's his line. There was a disturbance. That's why I was late to your play. And it's like, just tell everyone. If I was Spider-Man, I'd tell everybody. I'd tweet it every day. Hey, everyone, I'm Spider-Man. Give me money.

Crowdfund me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spider-Man give me money crowdfund me yeah yeah Spider-Man Patreon the crowd yeah that would work probably yeah I will say that in this movie Tobey Maguire there's so much physical humor he's doing straight up slapstick Maguire there's that scene in the beginning where there's like the mops in the closet and he's like I can't get all these mops in this closet

featuring Emily Deschanel by the way yeah oh is that who that is yeah yeah with a weird

she only has one line back to the Bechdel cast and she gives off this weird New Yorker accent she's like you're late yeah

and I'm like bones I'm not paying for these listen bones there's so many no bones about it weird New Yorker accent, she's like, you're late. And I'm like, bones! I'm not paying for these. Listen, bones. There's so many... No bones about it. So I made a list of all of the bit characters in this movie. There are 400

characters in this movie. Male, female, child. Which, children can be of all genders. I'm not doing good so far. This is supposed to be my greatest episode. I shouldn't have let in with that. You're really setting us up for failure. There are so many bit characters.

It's insane. I made a list. There's the guy who runs the pizza place, Emily Deschanel, who doesn't want to pay for the pizza. There's Elizabeth Banks in a wig. She comes up a couple times. I always have to do a double take to remember that it's her because it's such a weird wig. I had totally forgotten. She's supposed

to be Betty, right? Betty Brandt? Yes. I don't know if that's her last name, right? There's the daughter of the landlord. There's the landlord. And we'll get to that weird scene with the cake. There's a bunch of journalists. There's a million townspeople who go like, whoa, Spider-Man! There's the doctor in the tie-dye t-shirt. Yep. That's a weird

one. Usher, elevator guy, Joel McHale. The Usher is played by Bruce Campbell. I was like, is that? And then I was like, oh, right. Sam Raimi directed Evil Daddy, directed these Spider-Man movies. It makes sense that he'd give Bruce a little role. This movie makes a lot more sense when I'm watching it now where I'm like, oh, this is a Sam Raimi movie. Like the very scary, violent scenes out of nowhere, you're like, oh, that's because he's a horror boy. And I think that was kind of cool. Horror boy. Horror boy.

That's what they call him and then my favorite bit character was harry's butler who's in exactly one scene and james franco's you know like doing his james franco thing he's like oh gotta get spider-man like just brooding and his butler who's very old shouts from across the room your father only obsessed over his work and then james franco dismisses him by saying good night bernard and then he turns around it leaves never to be seen again i don't know how many actors got their sag card off of being on the set of this movie for like 25 seconds but there's so it's so weird also the name of the butler is bernard not not bernard unless. Unless James Franco just fucked up that line entirely. He says, good night, Bernard.

There's no... Who is it? Bernard. Good night, Bernard. And then Bernard turns around and leaves. And it's so funny because if you think about Batman's butler, you know, the famous one. And then you've got Bernard who has one line

and then he's like, well, you're right, I'm gonna fuck right off. And then he does. Shana's the best 15 grand that actor made. So wait, Sina, let's talk about when did you first see the movie and what's your history with because you write for Marvel.

I write for Marvel. I'm in you're you're a big deal tell us about because jamie and i we recently did an episode about wonder woman and i revealed that i've never read a comic book in my entire life sorry everybody really yeah so um because i'm not a fucking nerd just kidding i am i'm a graphic novel gal but i've never been a comics gal yeah yeah so i saw spider-man Yeah, so, because I'm not a fucking nerd. Just kidding. I am. I'm a graphic novel gal, but I've never been a comics gal. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw Spider-Man 2 in high school with my friend Eric Mierowitz, actually. He's a cool guy.

I had such a big crush on him, and we would have, like, sleepovers and make each other mixes, and I just, like, was always like, how do I sort this out? Didn't happen because he's straight. But anyway, back to Spider-Man. Shout out to Eric. Hey, eric love the weight loss glad you're married um but uh i always loved spider-man as a hero to to tie it into work stuff you know it's fun to be writing this book called ice man where it's about this guy who's trying to give himself a fresh start but he's like 30 something or like early 30s late 20s and it's about this guy who's trying to give himself a fresh start, but he's like 30-something or like early 30s, late 20s. And it's interesting to try and be like,

okay, well, how do I give him sort of Spider-Man adventures where every challenge basically speaks to his like personal life and his superhero identity? And then on top of that, you know, I think the magical thing about Spider-Man is like, he's never really good enough to win these fights. And the thing that sets him apart from everyone else is like spirit and ingenuity. And that's kind of the beautiful and inspiring thing about him is this like parting sentence from Uncle Ben

kept him on like a track to be like the good guy and to do the right thing. And this movie is really weird about that, by the way, like, he's like, I'm kind of tired, and I'm just over it. So I'm going to give up for an act. And it's all of like a four minute montage. To raindrops. Raindrops. Fun montage. I like that he becomes like spidey impotent.

He's like, my jizz doesn't come out of my wrist anymore. Well, I want to talk about that, too, because we have discussed on the podcast before the James Cameron draft of the 2002 movie, which bangs you over the head with the jizz metaphor. I never read or saw or heard tell of this. For the best, but James Cameron did the first draft of the 2002 script, and it's very, like, I mean, we read the scene where it's like Peter Parker, and the webs are jizz, very clearly laid out, act one, by James Cameron. And so I couldn't stop thinking about that because I was just like did he run out of cum like what he's out of cum

because he's afraid and i guess that makes sense but in this world uh thankfully the webs are not come they're something more uh well not that come isn't meaningful but you know what no i take it i mean it's not it is for a man right i could take it or leave it sure but for men it's their entire like basis of spirituality is like how big their loads are so maybe it is more like spermatuality you're gonna have branded shirts yes but yeah anyway yeah so i saw this in high school and it's funny because i didn't really much like it in high school and then i re-watched it to prepare myself for this and my relationship with it is a little different now because i was looking at it in consideration of like the bechdel cast like i really don't like it but i also do like

some things about it it ages interestingly and as a grown-up i love you know when you were talking about all the sort of bit characters like that's such a new york thing that you kind of even if it's just for like a moment you just have this like sense of this person where they are what their identity like just these like micro glimpses of all these little new yorkers that's such a spider-man thing and that was done pretty effectively in this movie but um it was a funny movie. It's a really funny movie in consideration of this podcast. Yeah, I mean, it's frustrating how women are portrayed in it.

But it's not, it wasn't like a chore for me to watch. I wasn't like, oh, I have to watch Spider-Man. It's a fun movie. It's fun, yeah, but... 94% on Rotten Tomatoes, if you can believe. I remember when it came out i was really into reading roger ebert's reviews and he at the time said this may be the best superhero movie i've ever seen i remember that yeah so i had a boyfriend who like loved yeah ebert yeah i had a boyfriend

who loved what is with that all these ebert hits it's due to like want to feel valid about watching movies yeah yeah but i mean he was like the premier film critic at the time well sure no i'm just saying it's it's funny that so many people have like a fixation on him in particular and then like malting gal myself had a he used to have a crush on leonard malton you really need to have a separate podcast about your crushes like i'm just putting that out there so we chose this for Alfred Molina exactly well we there's a new Spider-Man movie coming out

and we're like we gotta do a Spider-Man episode but we skipped the first one because we're skipping right over that and we gotta do Spider-Man 2 because of Alfred Molina although there's some interesting things I do want to point out some fun things

that happened in the first Spider-Man because I also re-watched it. I was just like, I've got to get my bearings. It's a fun one as well. It's fun. I think I might even like it better than Spider-Man 2. Critics-wise, 2 wins out, I think. I think so.

I'm pretty sure. I love an origin story. Right. So I enjoyed that about the first spider-man unique i'm sick of origin stories oh well maybe now maybe now because they've been done so much yeah but they're so they're not they're not fun to watch now or that's my problem with origin stories is now i don't know the tone of most comic book movies is so serious and it's just like that's why it was fun

to go back to this movie because i was like oh this is like really goofy and kind of dumb but i was like oh this is like i don't feel heavy after watching this movie it's like very there's so much levity to it anytime he's at the plant no no i'm about to get like destroyed by people listening i said the planet daily planet but like yeah any scene with like j jonah jameson's always like even though it's so arch it's just kind of like you just like want to believe in a world where like the photographer talks to the editor-in-chief like like one-on-one and like asks for advances for like, you know, two photos. It's so, and,

and I, I feel like if just for the sake of argument, feel free to disagree if they, you know, in the newer Spider-Man, and it does seem like this new Spider-Man sort of going for a more light hearted approach where with the Andrew Garfield, they're like,

Oh, this is like Captain America, civil war, which is where we first see this rendition of Spider-Man. He was fun. He's a kid. He's like, I'm a kid. I'm not even Spider-Man.

He's the lead in Billy Elliot. He's a dancer. He's living his life. But I feel like the tendency with most movies now would be like, you see J. Jonah Jameson. And yeah, he's got a couple of funny lines. But we also learn that there's more to him than and i'm just like i'm so happy with jay jonah jameson just being like nope i'm selfish i suck i'm weird i'm yelling end of scene i love in and out jk simmons is portrayal of that character though it's so fun it's great wait so i'm going

to talk about the things that happen in spider-Man 1. Just to transition us into Spider-Man 2. There's a scene, and this is relevant to the podcast, because there's a scene early on in the first Spider-Man where Peter Parker, he lives next door to Mary Jane, and he's like, I'm going to look into her window. And he just spies on her when she's in her bedroom. It's creepy. Yeah, with that Tobey Maguire, like, those glassy eyes, like, hey.

He does kind of have, like, a dumb face. Yeah. And then MJ needs to be saved in this movie once at the parade, once when there's, like, four rapey dudes trying to, like, mug and attack her. And then she needs to be saved again at the end when it's Spider-Man having to choose between her or a bus full of children. Oh yeah, I love that. What a fun choice. Basically in that movie and in this movie, MJ's pretty much only role is to be like,

I'm a person that just needs to be saved over and over this is the most frustrating part of the movie in context of the theme of our podcast the two characters obviously mj is just i feel like she's just like this recycled inciting incident for peter parker to learn another lesson and make a choice he makes a choice to not be spider-man because he loves mj and then he becomes Spider-Man because and then he can't be with MJ but then he can and it's blah blah blah and it's like what does she do?

She's somehow a famous actress. Was she even in the drama club in high school? How did this happen? We don't know. We don't care. And then the other character that really bothered me and I didn't even register for me the first time I saw this because I was just like, you know, so wet for Alfred Molina. This child in the theater just soaking wet for this grown man.

But Doc Ock's wife, Rosie Octavius. Perfect name. It's a great name. Rosie Ock. She's in a couple scenes, but she only really speaks in one scene, where Peter Parker is over and Doc Ock is, you know, Alfred Molina. He's holding court. He's like, I love science. I love my wife.

She loves poetry. How are we compatible? I don't understand T.S. Eliot. That's why she's better than me. The only things that Rosie says, like her opening is like, hey, Peter, do you have a girlfriend? It's like, okay, so she's a plot device. Right off the bat. And then they start to talk about like, oh, now Rosie exists to prove that Dr. Octavius is a good guy.

And he's talking about how he loves her. And of course she's an English major. Of course she can't be a fellow fucking scientist. They're like, no, she's sensitive. She reads T.S. Eliot. And then she's like, I do. And she doesn't bring any new information. She exists to validate Doc Ock as a character

who is not a bad guy. So it will feel it more when he goes bad and then basically the next time we see her she's very proud of him and then she is killed um by a shard of glass presumably to her jugular well by a lot of shards of glass there's like a whole but then she dies right and she dies for to serve another plot point, which is this is the inciting incident for. Well, Doc Ock has nothing to lose. He lost his wife. He loved her. And now he has no one. And, you know, who cares? But we never find out. She's like, I think referenced vaguely one other time.

We never find out if she has a funeral service, if Doc Ock is allowed to attend this funeral service and we never ever ever hear of her again she just like serves two very specific points to flesh out this i mean statuesque amazing gorgeous man and then she's killed and then we never hear about her again so my real question is like how hard was it for you to, like, not just stare at Alfred Molina in her scenes? Like, how much work did it take for you to do this work? I mean, I've had, what, 13 years to build up the stamina to not just stare at Alfred Molina. Some days are easier than others. Every day is.

There's other people in this scene. Yeah, I'm just like, I keep forgetting that... There's other people in this scene. Yeah, I'm just like, I keep forgetting that there's two other actors in this scene. I mean, Alfred Molina truly steals every scene he's in. Sometimes he steals every scene he's in to the point where they're like, let's put no one else in this scene.

Let's just let Alfred Molina do a three-minute Shakespearean monologue talking to his own claws. And it's still amazing. He shines. Wait, I want to make two points. One, he could not attend Rosie's funeral service because he was too busy stealing money from a bank. You know how banks just have bags of coins? The cartoony bank. I love the cartoony bank that Joel McHale works at that gives away toasters. That gives away toasters and that only has no paper cash, no like stacks

of hundred dollar bills. Gold. Just bags of gold coins. Alfred Molina also for that scene goes into the bank you know, claws blazing and has somehow acquired a villainous fedora. Just for that scene he's wearing a fedora

to rob the cartoony Joel McHale bank. And I mean, that's like another fun part of this movie for me is I feel like there's so many scenes that are just interrupted by very cartoonish acts of violence. And it's so fun. Like it's, you know, there's the whole scene where it's like Aunt May can't get a bank loan and Joel McHale's there and they're not going to get a toaster and Peter feels bad. And then all of a sudden cut to Alfred Molina, bags of gold, fedora. And it's just suddenly a completely different scene. Or the other one where Kirsten Dunst is leaning in and you get that weird shot of her like about to kiss you. Oh, yeah.

That was a weird shot. And then cut to car burst through the window. End of series. Oh, i really like this movie i think it's so fun oh god well the other point i wanted to make about doc ock is that here's some hot speculation from caitlin i would argue that peter parker he's like i want to meet my idol otto octavius and he was like i don't really have time for students right now. And Harry goes, he's like, okay, fine. You pay the bills.

So I'll meet with your dumb friend. And he spends all this time with him. Like Peter Parker goes over to his house and like they have tea with like his wife. They're spending a lot of time together. But here's the thing. That took away time that Octavius needed to do his calculations because he fucked up and the demonstration goes all wrong. And that's what turns him into Doc Ock. So really, Peter Parker ends up creating the monster he would later need to destroy.

Are you spider shaming? Yeah. He already fucked up the lives of his two closest loved ones. Also, but let's just to Molina shame a little bit, like, if you're like, well, now, all right, I liked you up until this second. But what scientist would like, if he was leaving those details down to the last minute, I mean. That is his fault. So, yes, Molina shaming. Let's say, everyone gets shamed.

Everyone gets shamed. Everyone gets shamed. Alfred Molina, let's just, and this is a strictly Alfred Molina comment because I was texting Caitlin when I was watching the movie. And I was like, oh, Alfred Molina's got the 50% gum, 50% teeth ratio. I thought he would have been a big Hollywood teeth actor. He's not. He's got regular teeth bordering on small teeth. He's humble. Respect him. He doesn't need Hollywood teeth. He's got regular teeth bordering on small teeth he's humble respect him he doesn't need hollywood teeth he's got talent and bedroom eyes he's got a crooked nose too he's a character actor small eyes big nose beautiful or not small eyes small teeth big eyes, big old broken nose.

I do wish that they gave like Dr. Octopus like a little bit more of a soul, you know, like because in the books that happens like every once in a while he'll get like moved. Like there's a minute where he Aristotle like nod or don't nod or whatever. But like there's a minute where like he's dating Aunt May, right? Like, in the book. Whoa. Or he has a crush on her. Look it up. Oh, my God.

And it was rewatching the movie, and I was like, oh, right. Is that what's going to happen with this, like, Aunt May scene in the, you know, on the side of the building? And then it's like, no. She does the thing that, like, every superhero writer does. And it's like, and then the woman does her part by daintily smacking him in the head at the right moment. Right. So that was the extent of their foreplay.

Yeah. She did do good, though. That was a well-timed, I'm going to hit you on the head. That was a good goof. It was a fun goof. It ends up, she saves Spider-Man, because otherwise he was going to impale him with his sharp claw bit.

Also, interesting. His phallus. His four phalluses just flailing around. In the books, is there a better explanation for why the claws exist? Because in the presentation, it's weird. He's like, I made these claws. I control my brain. Also, I made a new energy source. They're to magnetism and like radiation or something like that okay i couldn't he it's a

very it's like almost a throwaway line but okay yeah they do offer something because i was just like oh those are very different presentations why he needs to to me at least why he needs to like fuse them into his spinal column like why can't he just build a robot that he can control from afar because then he wouldn't get to build a robot that he can control from afar because then he wouldn't get to wear that because then he wouldn't be able to be the broad strokes are kind of the same like he was a scientist and and did this thing i don't think and i can't remember so please internet don't get mad at me or judge me but like i don't remember if there was that like also like and then there's this weird

explosion thing that like explains why he's a crazy person yeah oh his inhibitor chip yeah because that was the whole thing yeah that's a great scene the chip that's in one of his monologue scenes yeah in the book i don't think the tentacles is what they like to call them i don't have agency i think he's just a guy who's gone corrupt with power. And, you know, I don't know. I might need to I got to look into this because I don't I know. I think Rosie's in the books, too. But I don't think it's all as like neatly packaged as like here are these causes and effects like.

And that is why, like, he hates Spider-Man and this, that and the other. But, yeah, it's a similar thing where like he's like controlling these things and they just kind of make him a little too invincible for his own good. Hey, Aristotle, what about the Doc Ock and Aunt May thing? It happened? Almost married him. Almost married him.

Also, fun fact for you too, because you don't read the comics, there was a minute where Dr. Octopus, his brain was in Spider-Man's body for a while. Peter Parker's body. Toby McGuire exuding Alfred Molina vibes? Uh-oh. Can't imagine.

Uh-oh, fanfic. Interesting twist. Yes, we'll write this fanfic. I hope that they... She also just rubbed her screen because there's a picture of a Molina. I did just touch it. That was involuntary.

I'm sorry I called you out. You can edit it out. Being Molina-shamed. I hope that they gave Alfred Molina those. I want to say three full monologue scenes. One is especially long where he goes, the chip. That one's very long. But as we all know, Alfred Molina joined the Royal Shakespeare Company in 1977.

He's no stranger to monologues. He's a serious stage actor. So I hope they were like, well, we've got to have Molina as Octopus, which I doubt that they ever said. But he's a character actor. He's seasoned. He blew him away. And they're like, we've got to write some. We've got to let him talk to these claws.

Seems like he could really hear me out. If you can make some sweet screen chemistry with claws, maybe you are the greatest actor to ever live. Maybe. Well, he is really convincing. He's great. Hey, let's talk about something other than a man. This is going to be hard on this one. Okay, well, let me start. So we already kind of touched on this before, but not really surprised that MJ, main female character, doesn't really have much of a personality. She's not a super developed or fleshed out character.

She really exists only as the love interest. Her role is to be captured and then to be saved. She's a flip-flopper. Just over and over again. Well, let me crush some Lit 101 on you, too. Okay. Hit it. I was just realizing this on the drive over everything about her is static like when peter walks by all the same image of her you know what i mean like the whole movie it's the same billboard the same image

she's just there in place essentially waiting for him and then even the play like she's just in one place performing the same lines over and over again. That's really interesting that she does, like, for all intents and purposes, just exist to kind of stand around as an example of something. Yeah, right. She's just static. Yeah, and it makes her very passive. I mean, she pretty much does nothing actively to push the story forward or to really do anything that has any... I think she prompts whatever the next thing

Peter is going to do a lot of the time. But that's boring. Okay, this is... I'm probably not phrasing this right, but, like, why would you still have, like, a boner for someone

who's like, hey, and in the few months we haven't talked, I got engaged. Okay. I'd be mad. All scenes mary jane's so confusing in in this because she's not a fleshed out character but all the scenes she's in with peter are so weird like there's that scene where peter's leaving his own birthday party and mary

jane's outside of her parents house and there's that weird conversation where he's you know like not wanting to say i love you because he's still spider-man and then she gets very like close to him and is basically like say you love me say you love me and then he doesn't and then she's like okay well i have a boyfriend and i was just like why would you act that way that's so bizarre and then and then at the end when did i cry when peter was like we can't be together sure in the big web that talk wow i'm easily manipulated to be fair i don't think that i should have cried but i did but then you know she's lowered from the big old cum web. He's loaded. He blows a load. They lounge in it.

Hearts are broken. And then she's lowered from the load down to her long suffering. It reminds me of Liz Lemon's fake boyfriend. That's who MJ's marrying. Like astronaut, famous astronaut. Mike Dexter. That's basically who MJ is is engaged to he's perfect there's that great line where she like is like no let's do the spider-man kiss she does the

spider-man kiss with the astronaut and because he's not a character really either he's like i feel like i'm on the moon that was so weird that was such a weird line i was like we get it he's a space man that was confusing because he like, do you want to invite your friend Peter Parker to the wedding? She's like, Peter Parker? No, I hate him. He's a jerk. Let me kiss you like Spider-Man. She's weird. She's like, lie back so I can do that

Spider-Man kiss to see maybe you're Spider-Man. I don't know. Are you there with me, babe? And she's just like, nah. Shrug. And then in the next scene, she's meeting Peter for a coffee. And she's like, I changed my mind. Okay. You could argue that her kiss, her Spider-Man kiss with astronaut Mike Dexter wasn't as invigorating as she was hoping.

But then why doesn't she go and seek out Spider-Man unless she just intuitively knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man? It was confusing. Also. Why she's like, well, I just spent the earlier scene telling my fiance how much I hated you, but let's get coffee and maybe we're in love. And say like maybe I'll break up with my astronaut boyfriend for you, a freelance photographer who is emotionally withholding and a college student. Grow up. Also, did you notice that every woman in this movie, like, under the age of 60

was like, oh, who is that guy? Like, every girl in the movie was like... Elizabeth Banks. Mm-hmm, the neighbor. Keep your chin up, Peter. Yeah, she's like, you got this. Who would say that to a 20-year-old freelance photographer?

No one. Yeah, she was into him, the neighbor's into him, She's like, you got this. Who would say that to a 20-year-old freelance photographer? No one. Yeah, she was into him. The neighbor's into him. MJ, obviously, who just said is into him. There were a few others here and there that were just like always like, oh, who's that? And I was just like, are you like what? Oh, he's like walking on his campus.

And after in his like, there's like raindrops keep falling on my head montage. And he's like, girls walk past him and they're like, teekoo, teekoo. I do like that he does a bit of a reverse Princess Diaries for that montage where he's like, I'm putting the glasses on. And now my life is great. I'm like, interesting. That sequence ends in the most confusing freeze frame of all time. It's the best. I mean, I feel like that montage is... And this is a very silly

movie. That's almost as silly as the movie gets, but in Spider-Man 3... Oh, yeah. Spider-Man 3 is that montage spread out for like 45 hours. I mean, if you take the raindrops are falling on my head montage and then hold it up next to the weird dance scene in Spider-Man 3.

It's staying alive, right? Is that the song? Is it staying alive? I forget. Aristotle, fact check. But that's another one where women are turned on by Tobey Maguire and it's like, no, they're not. He looks like he's about to snap someone's bones. He is a scary guy.

Do we know the song? Oh, speaking of songs, Vindicated by Dashboard Confessional was written for this movie. Oh. There's references in the, because I remembered, this is, it's the perfect Hot Topic song. But there's like a whole verse about Mary Jane's wedding ring and how it's like oversized and overwhelmed like it's there's a whole it's all about spider-man dashboard confessional man cool cool story you're mad you're so mad okay let's talk about offer melina no um it's just really it's frustrating that she's basically reduced to effectively an object that's like now you're

captured now you're saved now you're captured again and now you're safe like it just happens over and over she doesn't do anything to ever try to save herself or to like when she's in the end of the movie she's in like chains she's like all right i'll just i'm just gonna stay here i'm not gonna try to she does the the thing that the the captured woman does where she's like, hey, let me go. And he's like, no. But she does try to defend herself once. And it's so weird the way it's dealt with. There's that moment in the last scene where Mary Jane, she takes a crowbar or something and she tries to hit Doc Ock.

And he just picks her up and throws her. And that is the one time she tries to do something and it blows up in her face immediately. Yeah, he's not even like, his mechanical arm is just like, punch. He doesn't even look at her. Yeah, he doesn't even like, back turned, bam. I was almost excited.

I was like, oh, she does do something. But then he's like, pfft. Yeah, she doesn't give it the chance. She's out of action. And then a wall is about to fall on her and then Spider-Man's like, we'll prop this up for you. Hey, this is really heavy.

And then she's like, I'll just stay here. And yeah, she does not scatter away. I think she's trapped under something. But I also think that in the other direction is the big ball of energy. So maybe she's going to get I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. They didn't need to have a conversation at that point where she was like, you said you do love me. He's like, you said you do love me he's like oh you do that sentence i've tried to remember the exact wording of it because it was also very silly where it was like okay she's kind

of over explaining rehashing something that's already happened where she was like you said you didn't love me but you do even though you said you didn't and i was like okay you could just say you do love me but she like like double negatives it just to even everything out she's dumb he's dumb it's well it's so funny like i'm just watching it and i'm like oh like this was written by men like it's just so funny there's so much bullshit you know we can talk about in the sense of like yeah they're all wallpaper and they're all serving this guy's story and i just in my head i'm like these what like what morons and it's like well they were probably just they just have the best of intentions in their heads like guys are so dumb that they think

like the best way to honor a woman is to say look how much you inspired me that's kind of all this movie is is like yeah my muse well but i'm not and i'm not forgiving it or excusing it i'm just like i'm watching it and i'm like trying to be like why would you just do it like with like so few dimensions and it's like i think that's why it's like they're just so busy these writers are so busy crafting like this one character and all they can think about is how like everyone else fits in their lives and it's like yeah the women are just always love interests and like damsels and they inspire them or move them or die in order to get them to do the thing and like right if they just try it a little harder they could write developed female

characters like it's not writing is hard it's not that much harder to just do a better job portraying women like right you know if you're gonna go so far as to write a feature-length script like maybe spend a little time on these female characters well alfred gets all these monologues even i mean and i would not take a word away from him however stop it okay i will flip this table uh we haven't talked about Aunt May in this movie very much. I was surprised. She had more moments than I thought she would. I feel like she is the closest to having a female character with some depth.

Because she does exist, like Uncle Ben did, to say a line in the trailer that I believe there's a hero in all of us. I remember that from the trailer. Same. Right. You know, both the aunt and the uncle exist for the trailer. But we do see,

like we see her grieving a little bit. And so there's a little depth there. We see that she's having money problems. There's a little depth there. And then you also sort of get a bit of an arc, which is amazing. It's like a female character had a one point arc. But she does where she sort of starts to move on and is like, I'm getting evicted from my house.

I found an apartment. Little neighbor boys help me out. I don't need your help, Peter. If you want to hang out, feel free. She's wearing a flannel. I'm like, good for she's she's starting to like all right you have to take matters into my own hands i can't afford this house anymore and then there's the moment where peter comes forward and he's like i might be responsible for uncle ben's death and she's just like you motherfucker and she goes upstairs she has two arcs sort of yeah and then and then in

the next scene when they're together again he's like hey about my last visit and she's like we didn't talk about it i'm over it let's move on i was gonna say i i thought that that was a believable yeah yeah especially for like i don't know it shows like i bought it that she has like some level of complexity well let's if she was never mad about it, that would have been weird. Right. She was upset about it at first. Sure. So, yeah, she has dimension.

She has a story. It's just unfortunate that everything about her is built around the actions of men. You know what I mean? Her husband, his death, her nephews being responsible for his death at the hand of another man. Even the neighbor boy. Even the neighbor boy. Why couldn't there be a little 10-year-old girl? at the hand of another man. Like all this, you know, man, man, man. Even the neighbor boy. Even the neighbor boy. Yeah. Why couldn't there be a little 10-year-old girl?

Or the banker was a man. Yeah. Joel McHale. The scientists, all the scientists and doctors who get to talk are men. Yeah. No women in STEM with lines. I was going to say, there were women, we were talking about the scene, that's a great Sam Raimi scene where Doc Ock murders 10 surgeons.

Oh, that was really scary when I was younger. Yeah. And I think I had almost like kind of blocked it out because I remember being afraid of it. But I just forgot until I saw this watch. And there's a lot of women in that scene, a lot of women in STEM. But I think that they're just there because Sam Raimi is like, we need screamers. Yeah, they shriek so much. Lady doctors. And there's all these intense close-ups of women going,

ah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one woman who digs her fingernails into the floor and then scrapes. Loved it. It was scary. I want to do a super cut of all the just women screaming in this movie because I think it would be about 20 minutes long. Yeah. I think they did a decently good job

with Aunt May giving her a little bit of depth. And it's nice to see, like, a woman over 50 in a movie. Yes. Oftentimes doesn't happen.

I think the only thing that kind of was like, oh, man, come on, was when Doc Ock captures her and is tossing her around and all that stuff. How did she not go

into cardiac arrest? Yeah. Yeah. Although the best, in that fight scene, it's not the best fight scene in the movie. That's obviously the train scene. But there's the best Alfred Molina line read in that

scene where Spider-Man's like, give me my aunt! Or whatever. And he's like, Butterfingers! Loved it! Loved that. My brother and I texted my brother when I saw that because we used to say that line back and forth to each other. And then we would just drop stuff. Butterfingers.

Butterfingers. Anyways. And then, like you mentioned, she does get her moment where she gets to hit him with her umbrella over the head. And it kind of saves Spider-Man from getting dead. Stop throwing women around. Yeah. Throw James Franco around a little bit. Right.

He does get a little bit thrown around, and then his glass of whiskey almost hits him in the face, and then Doc Ock catches it at the last minute. We haven't talked that much about James Franco. Let's not. I read one of his books of poetry. I'm good. I have a signed copy

i was to say i he did a reading at book soup where i used to work and i managed that day and it was one of the most traumatic days of my life was he a diva or was it just his fans fine it was just the 500 000 teenagers and he was so i was like stop touching them he was touching their hands that's what they wanted i but he was touching speaking of books of poetry though did you know that if you read a woman poetry she'll fall in love with you forever according to alfred molina auto octavius but to be fair his personalityless wife corroborated it she's like it's true it. I have three days to live. The other thing I wanted to mention was that while MJ does get tossed around, captured, saved, blah, blah, blah.

That's really her only role in this movie. She does kind of redeem herself in the end. Although I don't think it's very earned because she is so flat of a character that I think they're like, well, to write this line for her to say and then it'll make everything better but it's when at the very end it's after she's discovered that peter parker and spider-man are the same person and she's like oh and we do we love each other and we right you were in the come web and i love you and he's like we can't be together. I have enemies. I'm crying. Which like doesn't matter. She still gets captured even though she didn't.

Might as well be fucking. Might as well be fucking. Which is kind of what she says because she says, sorry, where is it? I have it. Can't you respect me enough to make my own decision? Yes. Is the line. But that line comes right after she says, uh can't you respect me enough to make my own decision yes is the line but that line comes right after she says i can't survive without you yeah so it's like sandwiched in between if that's like one good line sandwiched in between 45 bad lines right

but that that was that stood out to me too i wrote that down yeah yeah and then she's like but like could mj just when she's lowered into the web into the arms of astronaut mike dexter could she just say well you know obviously peter is following his path right now whatever but that doesn't mean she has to marry a man she doesn't love like and she just lands and there's that shot where he's holding her and she's looking back at peter i'm like you could just be single you're 20 exactly like we gotta get that runaway bride moment in there though he's gotta run through new york in a wedding dress that was i was feeling more for astronaut mike dexter in that scene because he seemed ready he seemed ready he's probably 30 you know he had he would have had to have gone through all kinds of training to be an

astronaut to go on the moon. He'd already played football on the moon. That was a fun throwaway line. The first man to throw a football on the moon. Let's talk about really quick the age of women. Oh, yes. Specifically, because I was just trying to look up Elizabeth Banks in regards to this movie because I'd forgotten she was in it. Apparently she was like almost MJ in the first movie

which is why they Sam Raimi ended up kind of throwing her into this movie because he felt bad but she was told at the time because I guess she's like

a year older than Tobey Maguire and they're like nope you're too old can't do it. Too old to play MJ. Too old to play MJ because you're older

than Tobey Maguire. She needs to be 18. And she was. Yeah. This is also why Tobey Maguire shouldn't have been cast and why we are all excited

about Tom Holland. But like he's too old to play Spider-Man. You know what I mean? Like he was like 26 when they started this thing. And I don't know how old Kirsten Dunst was.

She was probably. She was 18. She was 18? She was 18 when I started doing this. I forget that she's Kirsten Dunst so she was like 30 in experience at that point because of her career to date.

That was like post-virgin suicides. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She'd already done some shit at this point. I cannot wait to do a Jumanji episode. I'm jazzed. That'll be fun. But yeah, that's interesting.

Maybe Aristotle remembers this, but because neither of you read comic books, therefore you never read Wizard of the Maga. I feel shamed. No. No, no, no, no, no. What I'm trying to say is I'm setting it up so I don't sound like I'm mansplaining. Oh, no, that's okay. Good for you. So I'm trying to more be like, hey, because you didn't read this shitty comic book magazine in the 90s,

you don't remember when the James Cameron name was floating around. They were like, let's dreamcast Spider-Man the movie. And they wanted, they said Leonardo DiCaprio should be Peter Parker. Of course. Cameron name was floating around. They were like, let's dreamcast Spider-Man the movie. And they wanted, they said Leonardo DiCaprio should be Peter Parker. Of course. And then they wanted Nikki Cox. Remember her? No.

Look her up. She was on that sitcom in the 90s. And that's who they wanted to play. Oh, interesting. That's what fanboys thought Mary Jane was. Well, she's got, yeah, she's got the classic belt. Yeah, the boobs and no waist. She's got that, yeah, no waist.

40% smile. C to D cup. Little soulless behind the eyes. Yeah, she would have fit the bill. But then they were like, let's go a little unconventional. Let's get Kiki in her gap. Let's get the gap in there. Let's get Kiki in her gap. Let's get the gap in there. Let's see what happens.

Yeah, so just to let you know, that character is screwed no matter how you look at it. And in the comic book, and again, I'm not defending any of this, this is just all like, oh, it's really funny what men think is the coolest version of a girl. It's like, ooh, she's a model and an actress, but she likes the nerd.

And that's kind of her, like the whole series like in the comic books she's yeah she becomes a supermodel well i guess that sort of like doubles down on the problem of like this is a comic book written by men being adapted by other men yeah and like and and also they touch on this in the first movie but not as much in the book she She's also a victim of domestic abuse. Her father hits her. That's sort of hinted at in the first movie. I totally forgot about that. She gets dramatically screamed at and is crying and Peter's like, hey.

I'll fix you with my cum. You know it can fix a problem a man perpetuated. More man. Yeah. If at first you don't succeed MJ and also we have to call you MJ cause your name is weed yeah exactly

um that was my big beef with the movie was I was like ugh whatever just lean in like just throw in a joke in the first ten minutes being like yeah yeah yeah I know they're goofy enough they could have done it could have gotten away with it you could have have done something tongue-in-cheek. Kids wouldn't even know anyway.

Right. How many pounds of hair gel do you think James Franco used in this movie? Do they think he just got him a vat and they dipped him? I don't know, but while you were having a crush on Alfred Molina during this time, I was having a crush on James Franco. It has since moved to

Dave Franco, but... Oh, but oh well i mean that seems like a smart move yeah uh james franco is unhinged but in this movie he's not cute he's got so much gel he's wearing plastic sunglasses for 40 of the movie he keeps putting them on taking them off james franco is such a drama queen he's almost crying in every scene there's that what was the line that i texted you where they're at astronaut mike dexter's party and then peter comes up and then every time harry's just like who is spider-man tell me right now and then uh peter's like now's not the time and harry's like every time is the time and he yells and he's like drunk and it's like he's a mess also after octavius the. And he yells and he's like drunk. And it's like, he's a mess.

Also after Octavius, the whole experiment goes wrong and he turns into Doc Ock and several people get murdered in that scene. Harry comes out and he's all like, I'm ruined. The only thing I have left now is Spider-Man. Yeah.

It's like you're still a billionaire. You still live in a penthouse apartment in new york city well that's what bernard is trying to do it says you're totally obsessed over word good night bernard um this is dedicated to bernard shut up um can i just say oh my god i didn't even do the recap whoops i i don't need it this one we capped it pretty well yeah i feel like it was a slow recap um part of the movie is mj being very mad at peter for never coming to see her play and i just want to say if i got as mad at my friends for not coming to my shows as she gets at Peter for not coming to her show, I would have no friends.

But astronaut Mike Dexter's been five times. To be fair, if it's someone that you see as a love interest, I don't know, I got into this fight with my boyfriend a lot, like when it comes to reading books of mine. And I'm like... Books is different, though. It's still like, you know, well, you have the book on the table. It's pretty, it's still like you know well you're you have you have the book on the table it's a pretty it's a it's hefty sure so it's still like a two-hour commitment but even more to the point he didn't have to leave his apartment to read it and he hasn't read the you know and it's like i don't but i don't get but it's it's a place where like when romance is involved and this is

kind of the part where i'm like i guess i kind of respect that like that's where she's drawing the line like you're not meeting me on my terms which is my career which is cool that's i could yeah but again it goes back to like she's static and she's just always staying there waiting for him and like and he's just not show all he has to do is show up and he's not so right and this was her first big thing i think i guess i was doing a really bad job by the way every scene so bad she messes up her lines all the time she froze yes i mean no if lindsey lohan did that like oh daily mail would get so mad sorry yeah i'm making some weird references the one um really quick i feel like we've name dropped so many character actors one person we didn't name drop but he's in the very beginning asif manvi oh yeah yeah the pizza guy right who fires peter yeah mr is these just like oh and and also

again this has nothing to do with but there's so many people with four lines in this movie and i just want to make sure we acknowledge every single one of them willem dafoe avenge me he's in it for 45 seconds screams avenge me two times end of scene a hundred thousand dollars for willem dafoe new car for willem dafoe uh can i i'm gonna bring it back to what's relevant about this podcast not that i wasn't having a great time talking about willem dafoe please stop yelling at me another frustrating thing about it is that the reason that one, Peter Parker won't reveal to MJ that he is Spider-Man. And the reason that he won't be with her is that he's like, I have to protect you from my enemies. I'm always going to have enemies.

And I couldn't put you in danger. Which is really just like a symptom of this like patriarchal bullshit where he's like i have to always protect you and it's like no fuck off like no she can't fend for herself because you've written her as such a helpless piece of shit character but if you didn't if you like these writers tried a little harder it wouldn't have to be oh i gotta protect her if she could even let her land that one blow on doc i'm like why did he have to be, oh, I've got to protect her. I've got to save her from my enemies. If they had even fucking let her land that one blow on Doc Ock, I'm like, why did he have to just swat her away? They went through the trouble of writing,

well, she's going to try to do something. But we're going to make sure she fails. She would have broken all of her ribs and killed her. Punctured all of her internal organs. Well, Tobey Maguire would have died. Tobey Maguire is thrown against a brick wall so many times. He's got a spider exoskeleton. He's got spider skin. Or exoskeleton he has spider strength

do you think Tobey Maguire has any body hair? probably not, right? I don't think he has any body hair he's a shaver, I think you know who doesn't have any chest hair? is Alfred Molina, and we know this because there's a scene where his bare chest is exposed but what if he's a shaver?

do you like bare chest is exposed. But what if he's a shaver? I think he's gotta be. Do you like hairy chests? I do. Yes. I like them bare. You like them bare? I like a hair free. I find a smooth boy chilling. I like them smooth.

Do you like at least like some happy trails? I like a little tiny. Yeah. Like I don't want like a hairless person. Although not to shame people with like alopecia. You're great. Stop alopecia shaming. Sorry. Yeah. I don't like. I like just like a little like a little bit maybe like a little hair around the nips

free there alfred if you're listening if you shaved fine but no you didn't have to yeah he could have been a pretty brutish really quick one weird scene a woman is in it and it's not about alfred molina the cake scene yeah what's going on why even have that character first of all it's like we get it everyone has a crush on toby mcguire for some reason why have the character why have that scene yeah it's the neighbor the landlord's daughter she's like would you like some chocolate cake he's like with okay with milk with a glass of milk yeah that sounds so weird it goes it's like why why is it there cut that scene and then she watched she does not have cake she watches she has a plate she has a plate she's eating presumably eating her cake why is she staring at him she's just looking at him she

wants to she wants some of that spidey jizz to what end like where does that i i thought that that scene might have because when i was watching it i'm like is this scene implying that like peter's trying to move on and maybe they hook up but we see her leave we know it doesn't happen so it's like well then why and then she's like oh by the way you got a note from your aunt why not just cut to peter at his mailbox right and not not that it's like we don't need more women in this movie but what a fucking weird i watched it twice to make sure i'm like am i missing anything encoded in this scene like no nothing i remember the first time i saw this movie when it came out i was like why is this scene in here oh we uh i remember seeing this movie

in the theater and everyone burst out laughing during the line that MJ gives. Peter's like, let's pick up where we left off. And she's like, you never got on. How can we get off when you never got on? And it's like, sexy. I'm going to use that as foreplay. I'll just be like, look, you can't get off if you don't get on. So get on, buddy, and get off.

My foreplay is, mmm, Butterfingers. Welcome to my Alfred Molina school of foreplay. My other professor. My other one is, my inhibitor chip. I'm uninhibited. I love it! Fuck me! There's such a good where he's like, the chip!

And he turns around and he goes, oh, it's so good. Wait, can we talk about. I had a rush of blood pressure. His other. Remember when he tries to make a joke and he's like, did anyone lose a roll of $20 bills on a rubber band? Well, we found the rubber band. And it's like, I'm going to get rid of all my standup material. Tell only that joke and be a worldwide sensation.

To Hollywood extras. Wait a minute. I forgot to talk about my favorite moment in the entire movie. So I made a list of all the times that Spider-Man has to save a character. He first saves Harry whenever Octavius's experiment goes all wild. So, hey, a man saving another man. Okay. Then he has to save Aunt May after Doc Ock captures her at the bank.

And then he saves a small child in a burning building. Oh, yeah. But the floor collapses beneath him and he kind of falls down. He's hanging from this ledge. And he hurls the baby back up onto the floor collapses beneath him and he like kind of falls down. He's like hanging from this ledge and he hurls the baby back up onto like just flings her violently. Because this is like a toddler who's like two or three years old. And then somehow this baby helps pull him up back onto the floor. This, you know, 160 or 70 pound man and a two and a half year old baby.

She pulls him up. Hero baby. That's a good point to cite that this is a very white movie. Yeah, very white. Which is not what we tackle specifically, but worth mentioning. Worth mentioning. Very white movie. Very few people of color in the movie.

Which for something about New York is like okay throw a few Dominicans in please there's also Robbie Robertson at the newspaper but again if you can't immediately think of him that says everything oh right oh yeah I didn't know his character's name

I just know him as the guy who loves Spider-Man and then Asif Manzi but it's a two hour movie I just know him as the guy who loves Spider-Man and then Asif Manzi but that is you know it's a two hour movie and these people each have a handful of lines so not great anyway just wanted to put that out there

that I love that a baby helps pull Spider-Man shout out to baby so do we have any final thoughts about the movie and how it portrays women before we get into talking about whether or not it passes the bechdel test i like was talking to my boyfriend about this this podcast and the bechdel test and he like knew a little bit about it but then he's like what is it really and then we like don't worry sophia coppola doesn't know either

burn sick bonus episode so we ended up looking I just image searched the Bechdel test to show him the panels from Dykes to Watch Out For and there were all these statistics that were related to the Bechdel test which movie does this versus that

but then there was also box office statistics there's like a positive correlation between if your product passes the Bechdel test it also earns more money. Whoa. Yes. That's great to hear. And also, I guess not that surprising,

women make up half of the population or more. More, yeah. And they are, they go to movies, we, we, they, they, those women. I'm one of them. Those exceptions. I mean, I've seen that statistic too. And and it's, like, not surprising at all. And it doesn't even mean that the movies are better because the bar for the Bechdel test is, like, kind of absurdly low to begin with.

It's insane. I mean, as we've discussed before, the Bechdel test sort of examines a larger problem, which is that there just aren't enough women in movies most of the time. They often don't play a significant enough of a role where there would be several of them talking to each other, which is just, like I said, a symptom of a larger problem where there's just not enough representation

of women in most movies. It's weird to do, like, this episode about Spider-Man 2 having very recently done a Wonder Woman episode, which, which like just fares so much better. Flying colors is how it passes. Passing the test and then also just portraying women like it just like, you know, like, oh, a woman's kicking ass and driving the story. Well, and even look at the Bane Batman movie with Catwoman.

Like there's this whole subplot with her and Juno Temple like looking out for each other right and it doesn't take much you know what I mean like and that's not time consuming it's not really anything people talk about in regards to that movie but it's yeah it's something and it gives yeah and like for anyone

listening to this writing their own stories and myths and whatnot like just like start from scratch and be like alright what does the character want and how do they get it? Delete the, like, male love interest and then ask also, like, what does this female character want and how does she get it? Like, outside of, like, dating Spider-Man. That's really just all you need to start. And it makes your story better. Yeah.

It makes a better story. When you mention that. So in the first Spider-Man movie, she's like i want to move to new york and be an actress and then we see like a little scene where she's like oh i just had an audition and it didn't go very well but then after that she seems to have a pretty successful acting career and modeling career because she's got this like whole billboard like a perfume ad and then she's like one of the worst pictures of her too yeah like but like and she's a terrible actress but somehow she's still doing well but It's like one of the worst pictures of her, too. And she's a terrible actress. Yeah. But somehow she's still doing well.

But it's like we never see her struggle in regards to her career or just anything else about her life. She's just like, I love this boy who doesn't love me. He just shows, like, yeah. It's just careless. Yeah. But let's talk about whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. the first scene where women interact yes is peter's surprise birthday party where aunt may goes hey mj can you give me a hand and mj says this is one of those fucking infuriating scenes where it's like our antennas go right up because we're like oh two women are in the same scene this never happens and then it's

like every time they speak you're like and then then it doesn't this movie doesn't pass but but there's another near oh maybe in in that scene where again and it's also ironic because they're both talking about domestic stuff while peter and harry are talking about business um but uh aunt may says let's go into the other room and get something to eat and then mj says to no one in particular, I'll get the hors d'oeuvres. Oh, I didn't pick. I didn't notice that one. But yeah. Two women speaking consecutively.

Right. Not really to each other. Yeah. And then the one I mentioned where she just goes, that's not a response. That's not a conversation. And she's not. Yeah. She's not conversing because she's staring at Peter.

Right. Yeah. And walking backwards into the kitchen like a fucking freak. In the scene where James Franco goes, You're busy? You're taking pictures of Spider-Man? 20 times. He's like, oh, you're busy? Are you taking pictures of Spider-Man?

He's also almost crying. Are you taking pictures of Spider-Man? The whole thing. Spider-Man pictures. You're taking them? You'd tell me, wouldn't you? And Peter's like, I don't know. He's like, oh my god and then they bring out the others good night bernard there's an opportunity there's an opportunity for that scene to pass

really they just need a few lines of dialogue back and forth between Aunt May and MJ doesn't happen. The next scene that I noticed was it's before MJ's show. And she's talking to her castmate. And her castmate's like, oh, you seem jittery tonight. And MJ's like, you never know who's coming. The implication is that, oh, Peter's coming. But that's implied. And it's like, not explicitly stated. It would be a pass, except.

Except that we don't know that other character's name, not explicitly stated. It would be a pass, except. Except that we don't know that other character's name. Sorry, bitch. It doesn't matter. It's one of the caveats that we adhere to on the Bechdel cast. Yes.

We have to know the character's name because if they have a name, they're important enough to the story where we would need to know their name. But this character

is pretty insignificant. And then there's the second interaction that they have on the street. Well, before that, on the stage. Well, before that, on the stage. Well, this is the fun exception one.

Because the importance of being earnest does pass the Bechdel test. And it passes the Bechdel test on screen. But it's not Spider-Man 2. And it wasn't written by anyone involved with Spider-Man 2. So even though we could argue, if you know know the play the importance of being earnest fun play goofy nice you could say well we do know those characters names if you have that knowledge of the play that would be it's asking a lot of comic book fans it's asking a lot and also uh it it doesn't and it's not written by anyone involved with Spider-Man so it's not relevant.

It's a staged conversation that exists outside of and then also we still don't know that actress's name and then they talk again after the show and she's like, you sure didn't want to come tonight? And MJ's like, yeah, I'm sure. Great show. I'll call you later.

Even if she said, okay, thanks Steve. Now we know the okay, thanks, Steve. And now we know the woman's name is Steve. And then it would have passed. Right. But we still don't know her name. So, and then there's the scene

where they're at the party for astronaut Mike Dexter. And J. Jonah Jamison's wife is like, beautiful dress. But the woman doesn't respond. And also we don't know her name or the woman she's talking to her name so doesn't pass i also forget i mean weird not relevant but astronaut mike dexter's

jay jonah jameson's son that's in the comic yeah is it he and he and he just has like this perfect son well yeah like he sir he becomes like plot points his mortality affects affects J. Jonah Jameson's perception of Spider-Man. I'll leave it at that. Got it. Okay. And same with some of these throwaway characters is like the ladies and stuff. They don't necessarily become anything more than just like objects for Peter Parker to like pine over in the books. But I've been trying to remember if that like, yeah, the neighbor girl, what her significance is.

But I don't. But that's never an excuse and again even if it was like building to something that they thought they'd have you know four more films with like they all still exist to like be his love interest i mean sometimes like something that's adapted from a book or a comic book they'll give a nod you know they'll be like oh remember this and like fans of the comic book will know who this is but if you're then gonna put it in the movie have it serve a purpose not just be like, remember this? Like, fans of the comic book will know who this is. But if you're then going to put it in the movie, have it serve a purpose. Not just be like, oh, remember this thing? Do you recognize her?

Oh, cool. And for everyone else, fuck off. I think that's why astronaut Mike Dexter was kind of a fun character for me. Because he is really the only male character in this. Just in the context of strictly Spider-Man 2, he's the only male character who is as empty and purposeless as most of the female characters. So it's like, well, they've got, you know,

Mike Dexter doesn't have a personality either. He's an astronaut, so if someone kisses him, he says, I'm on the moon right now. It's like, love this guy. So, yeah, we conclude that the movie does not pass the Bechdel test. It does not. Not surprising. I like when James Franco

yells to Alfred Molina, you're a hack! That's a fun one. I was like, oh, I want to take that one to the green room. Yeah, the women don't even have good zingers. And the get on, get off is not a zinger. It just landed funny. Right.

Yeah. We'll give the credit to Kirsten on that one. Way to go. Good for you, girl. Yeah. Hey, let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. We have a scale of zero to five nipples where we rate the movie based on its portrayal of women. I give it one nipple.

Oh, boy. I mean, Aunt May, pretty good character for who she is. But the only other substantial female character is the main one, Mary Jane, MJ, everyone else like Miss Brandt, and the landlord's daughter, and Doc Ock's wife, Rosie. They, you know know they're on screen for mere minutes if that and they don't have much to do with the story and neither does mary jane like she's like i'm here i'm wearing a dress you can see my nipples you better capture me take me to a tower hold me captive chain me up chain me baby speaking of chains what where is this going because how do i feel about two chains because you are because you are a man we did have to chain you

to the chair and you've remained very still yeah you're you're very good you know but that is the price you pay for being a man on this podcast you're our first guest in like 15 episodes that has been a man. And I begged to be on this. Broke the record. And providing any last minute lashing out, you've done an excellent job. But in any case, so good job. No, you're wonderful. Thank you so much for being here, Sina. But yeah, so MJ, she sucks.

She's a very watered down character. You know, no depth, no dimension, just exists to be captured and saved by the bad guys and the good guys. So yeah, because MJ is just not a good character, and the movie doesn't pass the Bechdel test, and the portrayal of women, not great in this movie. Not surprising for superhero movies, especially of the era of the early 2000s. Yeah, One Nipple, it belongs to Tobey Maguire in the scene where he takes off his shirt in the window as he's getting ready for MJ's play. Why do we need to see him take off his shirt? We don't. But I like that it's there. I feel like that's Sam Raimi shouting, like, just in case anyone's interested in whatever's going on there. I like that we get sort of like,

because usually if there's, like, unneeded nudity in a film, it's a woman taking her clothes off. But now we get Tobey Maguire in his, like, chiseled Spider-man exoskeleton body i'm gonna give it two napples yeah maybe one and a half uh instead of two and i really i really do love this movie a lot i had a great time watching it for alfred bolina but also just because i think it's a super fun movie and superhero movies have a really hard time keeping my attention and this one never has never will uh but the same reasons i think aunt may is really the only fully realized female

character in this movie and even then all of her actions and motivations are tied to the men in her life it does not do a good job with its female characters mj sucks. All the other women, we don't know. Because we don't know them. Hey, one of them really likes chocolate cake. That's her defining characteristic. What a cake girl story. I don't even care. But I'll give it one and a half nipples, and they belong to Bernard.

Oh, whoa! I know. Hard left? Feel the burn. Wow. Feeling the Bernard. Wasn't expecting that. Good night, Bernard. Sorry, Bernard. We see fuckingfred molina's nipples in this movie you can see his nipples in a lot of movies to be fair you can trust me i have i have like one of those cork boards at home where you can figure out exactly what moments in time you can. Anyways. Free the Molina nipple.

Yeah. I'm going to give it one nipple as well because of everything you both said. I don't have much else to add to it. The nipple I picked, though, is Mary Jane's nipple from the first one. It exemplifies everything that we take umbrage with, which is like women only like fit best to inspire uplift and challenge men not like to be their own so like here's this like dumb like lolita nipple you know what i mean um but yeah yeah it is a fun movie that's what's that's what sucks about it is that you want to like it but it just they, they just stopped after like, all right, well, we have like a good Spider-Man journey, but not like,

I don't know, yeah, and I think about the movie about like New Yorkers and all these voices and stuff, it's amazingly like, everything is just like a wash, you know? Yeah. Thank you so much for being here, Sina. I had a really lovely time. I learned so much about Alfred Molina. Happy to follow up.

Subscribe to the newsletter where can people follow you online uh you can find me pretty much on any uh social media platform just by typing s-i-n-a-g-r-a-c-e and you know you put an at sign in front of it or dot com at the end of it look me up hang out i try to and buy your book yeah i don't know that does the i don't know that the book passes the bechdel test only only in that so many scenes are one-on-one interactions with me and a person but the women in it talk about a lot of things that aren't romance like we talk about careers we talk about grief like okay and then. And then relationships. Cause that's me, but that's me. That's not what I think.

Like, oh, like this is what you use a girl for. Like, you know, so the book doesn't necessarily pass, but it gets a pass because. It's okay. Many of my favorite movies don't pass the Bechdel test. I still love them. Example. Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man 2 is in my top 10 movies.

Don't yell at me. I would say, though, Raiders of the Lost Ark, another Alfred Molina... Joint. Joint that he's in again for two minutes. I would not say it passes the Bechdel test, but hey, let's do an episode about it. Let's find out. Anyway, yeah, bye. See you in his book, Nothing Lasts Forever.

Thanks again for being here. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. You can follow us at Bechtelcast on Twitter, on Instagram. You can listen to us and rate us and review us on iTunes. So many platforms. So little time. Engage with us on the platforms.

We love you. We need you. Tweet at us, especially if your name is Alfred Molina. We tweeted at him. Who did not answer. And as of today is June 20th, he has not tweeted back. Also, we have a new... What am I trying to say?

Hey, do you love the Backdollcast? Do you want to make it less of a financial burden on the creators of the Backdollcast to continue the Backdollcast, which you listen to for free all the time? Good news. We will happily accept your money that is what i was trying to say yeah we have an opportunity if you so choose to kick us a few dollars you know maybe spike us a few dollars if you're a volleyball gal punt us a few dollars whatever verb you choose yeah we have some costs that we have to pay for to produce this podcast

and we would love it if you guys could donate hey maybe a dollar a week or like a chunk of five whatever you want we encourage you to donate to our show the way you would to your church so that's about 10% give up your religion and then give it to us instead. We are your new religion.

Welcome to your new religion. We are going to need a lot of your money. If you want to call us up and confess things to us, we're available around. Yeah. We have a PayPal account that you can donate to. If you go to paypal.me backslash Bechtelcast, you can throw. Throw is another verb. Throw us a few dollars.

You can hurl. Like hurling a discus in the Olympics. Exactly. Tight, tight. Yeah, you can hurl us some bucks. What's the verb that they use in curling? That like Canadian ice. Curl us a dollar or two. Curl us a dollar or two.

Curl us a dollar or two. That'd be gross. Hey, you want to curl me over a dollar? I'd love to, Jamie. Thank you so much. I'll fall out. So that's something you do. It would really help us out.

We'd really appreciate it. Guys, I think I have Goodnight Bernard pulled up on my computer. Harry's looking at clips. He's hitting the table. Where are you? I'm leaving for the night, sir. Fine. Your father only obsessed over his work.

Goodnight, Bernard. Goodnight, Bernard. Goodnight, Bernard. Oh, it's so funny. And with that, good night, Bernard. Good night, Bernard. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated.

Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right. The queen of comedy herself.

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