The Bechdel Cast - Spirited Away with Ayumi Shinozaki

Episode Date: May 5, 2022

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Ayumi Shinozaki visit an abandoned theme park and discuss Spirited Away! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @ayusheknows on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

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cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey listeners, just a quick note about this episode. Some of the audio is slightly distorted here and there. You'll hear some crackling. It's not terribly excessive, but it is there enough that you notice. So we just want to apologize for that. Hopefully it's not too disruptive to your listening experience. And we hope you enjoy the episode. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do

they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast jamie caitlin it's getting dark oh no we have to get you out of here we have to get you out of this podcast because if you stay get me out of here you're gonna turn into a pig and maybe also a spirit oh shit is it a metaphor for something maybe oh no it's too late now you have to get a job i'll never know what the metaphor is it's probably capitalism it's always capitalism the Or the environment or coming of age. Oh, no, I'm a pig. Oink, oink. Me eating smart ones as we record. I'm like, oh, no, slow down. Eat your smart ones slower.

I think that was an incredible. That was a very, I thought you were going to make me hold my breath is what I thought was going to happen. Oh. But also that would have be impossible to pass the Bechdel test because I would be unable to speak. That's true. So my version was amazing. 10 out of 10. No notes.

No notes. Thank you. Welcome to the Bechdel cast, by the way. Indeed. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus. And this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies in the whole wide world using an intersectional feminist lens. And today kicks off, I guess, a unit that kind of makes it sound like this podcast is school. I don't love that. But a unit of films that has been requested for years and years and years.

And the time is now. They're all finally, at least in the US, they are all streaming in a pretty accessible way, which is what we were waiting for for a long time. And then we just kind of waited another year for fun. We needed to cover Shrek 2. Priorities. I mean, with all due respect, there were some animated stories that needed to be looked at. And by that, I mean Shrek 2 and only Shrek 2.

But yes, we are starting our Miyazaki month. And we're starting with his Oscar winning film. It's true. Which I didn't really, well, we'll get into there so much. It's Spirited Away Day. It is. On the Bexel cast. Yes, it is. Oh wait, we didn't say what the Bechdel test was. I guess we should say that. We usually say that. What is it? It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. There are many versions of it. Ours is this. Two people of a marginalized gender with names have to speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. And ideally, it's a narratively meaningful conversation. Yes. Which in Miyazaki canon is not usually not a problem. Too hard at all. So very excited for today's episode. I can't wait to. Okay, let's bring in our guest. And then I have a really pressing question. We have an amazing guest today. We absolutely do. She's a writer, translator, host and producer of Sparkle Side

Chats podcast. It's Ayumi Shinozaki. Hello. Welcome. I was holding my breath waiting to be introduced. Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, you can finally breathe. Yes, yes. It's wild because we couldn't see you for the beginning of the recording. And then we heard a sharp exhale and then you appeared. Yes, very excited to be here. Thank you for being here. We're so excited to kick things off with a Spirited Away episode with you. This is definitely an extremely American statement. However, immediately, the second Lynn began speaking, I don't know if I

remembered this from the first time I had seen this movie. But this the moment Lynn began speaking, I was like, oh, Megara, Megara, Hercules. That's true. Disney's Hercules. It's all I mean, I was a I was a big Hercules head. I don't know that that would fare very well on this show at all but I really loved it when I was tiny and um her voice unmistakable yes definitely yes I do think that um one thing that's really interesting about this movie in terms of you know why it's so well done or like why it's so popular in the U.S. is because it was the first one that was localized by Disney in particular. Because before that, there were different other studios doing it. Like sometimes it wasn't very successful. Totoro did, I think the original Totoro did okay. I think I remember watching that one in English,

but this was the first Disney one. I think that you can definitely hear it in the localization. So it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I was, the whole adaptation process i watched i mean it was a heavily heavily disneyfied uh look at the adaptation process but it was interesting i never sort of seen that process done before so closely with the with the filmmaker too yeah so let's let's get into it and And Ayumi, what's your history and relationship with Spirited Away? Yeah, so I guess my history with this movie is really connected to my history with Ghibli in general, which, you know, for anyone who has no idea who I am, I am Japanese and white. And my father, who is a white American, he actually was like really, really into movies.

And so he got into Ghibli movies in the 80s, like through his best friend who was a Japanese American. And they used to basically do fan dubbing of the movies for their friends because it was just so inaccessible. Yeah. So hold on I actually did I I am both my parents to get at their their history of Ghibli before they got married but um yeah so what he told me was like you know they really went line by line and translated they did Naushka they did um the Castle of Kaiyostra which is uh Lupin the third movie but was also uh directed by Miyazaki then Lapita and then um also Macross which is not Ghibli but is a very big like sci-fi uh Japanese movie but um definitely like I was always closer to my father uh in the first place but like, you know, when it comes to movies, and especially

Ghibli movies, I was always like watching them with this idea of like, you know, these are some of the best, you know, movies out there. And like, they were kind of the way to kind of understand that like animation was a genre. And you know, like, just because something is animated doesn't mean it's like less of a movie than a live action one um but yeah since you know in the you know late 80s and early 90s a lot of more kid-friendly juvie movies had come out so those were the ones i definitely watched more you know totoro and kiki's delivery service but uh it wasn't until like thinking about my relationship to this movie that i realized how perfect this movie was for me because this movie came out in um well it originally came out in 2001 in Japan but I believe it came out in 2002 in the U.S. uh in its localized version and that's where I grew up and in 2001

I um I was 10 years old so the same age as Chihiro was. And then I had moved to, well, I moved within New York City, but I had a pretty major move. And yeah, it was just like this, this really interesting movie for me. And then the other thing is that this movie is very, very based in, like traditional Japanese folklore, which I never really had a relationship with growing up because my mother is in like this neo Buddhist group. For me, I call it a cult. They don't call it a cult, but whatever. That's either here or there. But the point is, they're very much they reject those like old ways and so on. So I really didn't have a relationship with those. So this was like me learning a lot about, you know, my own background in a way. So I was so obsessed

with it. I was obsessed with how it looked. I was obsessed with the idea of like, going to another world and getting a dragon boyfriend and all of that. So relatable, very relatable. Nice. Yeah. Jamie, what about your history um i had seen this movie once before i didn't grow up i wish i had grown up in a household that was more um i guess active about getting me miyazaki movies because i i only saw i think two growing up i saw kiki's Delivery Service and Spirited Away both at my friend's house shout out Samantha Honeywell um at least my like recollection of it growing up it was like there would be one kid that would have the Miyazaki movies but it wasn't like they should have been

in every household the way that there were five you know whatever my my parents were just like very very much and this isn't this is most parents you know it's a hard life but they would just be like okay we're gonna go see the Disney one uh we're gonna see Dana Carvey Master of Disguise because for some reason I really wanted to see that but other than that we would just go see the Disney movie and but I wish that I had seen everything that was available younger. But I remember being so fixated on Kiki. Like Kiki's delivery service was it. I loved it so much. I really liked Spirited Away.

And I also vaguely remember thinking like, I don't know what the child's like equivalent of this, but I'm like, this might be a little over my head when I was when I was a kid because it's so beautiful and it's this amazing adventure and I remember being scared of no face and then also being amazed when she was nice to no face because that didn't happen in movies the villain falls off a cliff at the end of a movie but that's like this this movie is like so i don't know i mean i i hadn't ever watched it um as an adult and so preparing for this episode was so wild because there's just there's so much it's such it i it's no longer over my head although there's there's so much to talk about because it's because it's about capitalism. And we know that now as adults.

Ever heard of it? But I really enjoyed prepping for this episode. And just learning more about Miyazaki in general. I didn't know much about. I only knew kind of the broad strokes of his background. And so it was really cool learning about his background and his politics and and i'm very excited to talk about this caitlin what's your history with spirited away i did not have one i had not seen it until prepping for this episode i've watched it three times now because there's a lot to digest it's a heady kids film it really is if you're operating at a shrek level

which i was and still am yeah we kind of come in at the shrekian point and sometimes you got to kind of level up right so i grew up with totoro that was my absolute shit but that was the only Miyazaki movie I saw until I think a couple years ago when I saw Kiki's and then it was only within the past week that I watched Spirited Away and now I really want to like make it a point to get through the entire oeuvre of Miyazaki but um I'm still working my way through it I was not expecting Spirited Away to be so wild it's scary it's scary there's a lot of like frightening imagery there's a lot of just like wild stuff that happens I mean it's a children's movie set in like a horny bathhouse for spirits like it's just wild so i was kind of expecting something more along the lines of i mean obviously

like there are elements of you know fantasy and in both totoro and kiki's delivery service so i was expecting it to be like that but still kind of tame like those movies are and then spirited away is just like whoo um so it was it was a wild ride for me but yeah i'm i'm excited to discuss and this is one of those episodes where like my notes make no sense and i it's mostly just like non-binary icons the soot balls is this movie about capitalism and environmentalism question mark like it's just like well yeah gold coins and rivers um but it's so i mean it's like that's so incredible for for i mean for any movie to like address either of those topics well or thoughtfully much less a movie that is like very accessible and like understanding of kids too it's just oh this movie uh blew my mind. I really, really love it. Yes. So with that in mind, should I do the recap? Yes. Sure. Yes. Okay. I do feel like I left out some details of the story in the interest of

brevity because this movie, it was difficult to concisely recap because again, there are so many things that happen. There's a lot of details, but I did my best. Okay. So we meet Chihiro, a 10 year old girl who is in the car with her mom and dad, and they are all headed to the new house they're moving into. On the way, they come upon this odd building with a long dark tunnel and they decide to walk through it and on the other side they find this abandoned theme park and despite chihiro's protests they all walk through the tunnel go into the park and her parents find this food vendor and start chowing down on a ton of food. Right away, I thought it was like I had to, there's, I don't know. I mean, I obviously was not picking up on this as a child.

But like right away, the script is referencing like contemporary Japanese history that I had to keep pausing and being like, wait, what is that where i think it's chihiro's father when they first get to the abandoned theme park he like mentions a stock crash like an economic crash and like contextualizes why the park was abandoned and it's done so quickly and so easily like i just it's so well done it's so cool yeah even like the very beginning, like the opening shot of the movie, like thinking about it. I mean, they have her read over what the card is, but like you open with the shot of this bouquet of flowers and this card from Chihiro's friends, you know, saying like, I'll miss you and all of that. And it's just like the way that it just doesn't hesitate to just get you right into the story. It's so it just doesn't hesitate to just get you right into the story. It's so, it just, it's really great. There's so much that happens and it's very, it doesn't stop to have to like explain everything in, you know, amazing detail or whatever.

Right. Yeah. And as a group that just did the Dora the Explorer movie, not all movies are like that. A lot of movies, it's part of the form to stop and tell you what you're watching right uh okay so her parents are eating all of this food and chihiro wanders off and she sees this bath house she's like wow i wonder if i'm gonna end up in there for the next several weeks question mark unclear then she bumps into another kid who says you shouldn't be here you need to leave before it gets dark and she's like what was that all about but she runs back to her parents and uh while she's doing that the park seems to be coming alive

and is occupied by spirits so then she finds her parents who have turned into pigs so scary yeah how like i that's one moment that and no face i remember were the two moments that i was like like the idea of leaving your parents you come back in their pigs yeah yep still scary so she starts freaking out and she tries to leave but the way they came in is now underwater then she watches a bunch of spirits disembark a ferry and head into the bathhouse and then that kid haku finds her again and he wants to help chihiro find her parents and leave so haku tries to sneak Chihiro into the bathhouse. But she is discovered by all of the creatures and spirits as being a human.

Because she has to... It's so good. I really like whenever a writer finds something that you just know kids were super receptive to seeing it in theaters, like being asked to hold your breath and like that whole thing. Like it just I don't know. I was doing it as I was watching it and I'm old. But like as a kid, you're like, oh, that's such a smart thing to do as a writer because there's no kid watching that movie who's not going to try to do the same thing and also probably not make it right it's so good so she's discovered as being a human so they have to run away and haku tells her that if she wants to help her parents she has to go to the boiler room and ask kamaji for a job And if she doesn't get a job, Yubaba, the witch who runs the bathhouse,

will turn Chihiro into an animal. So we're like, okay, the stakes are high. And it's like Boiler Room. What is this, Titanic? Okay, that was the Titanic reference I was able to find. Yeah, this movie does have a small connection to Titanic, I suppose, technically speaking. Yes. I wonder if we have the same fact. Would you like to share yours? Yeah, it's so this movie was the top grossing movie in Japan until 2020. Yeah, in late 2020, it was usurped by the Demon Slayer movie, which is whatever. But not for me, but it's fine.

But yeah, so it went for almost 19 years. It was the top movie in Japan. And before that, that was Titanic. Yeah, I have the same fact. Yes, yes. Titanic had a brief reign, but it had to end. Yeah. Okay, so Kamaji, the boiler room man, turns out to be a guy with six arms.

And all these little balls of soot work for him. And Kamaji does not want to help Chihiro at first. But then he warms up to her and tells her that she'll have to make a deal with Yubaba if she wants to work at the bathhouse so then this woman named Lin takes Chihiro to see Yubaba and along the way we get of like the head of the cleaning women she's she's like the head of cleaning yeah yeah yes so then chihiro finally meets yubaba who has a baby a large baby but not just any baby a big old baby a huge baby yes in the english dub voiced by tommy pickles yes expert baby yes who is that uh tara strong tara strong yeah okay she's like an iconic i mean she's been she's she's bubbles from powerpuff

girls i could i could go on about her. She's an animation legend. She's great. I think she's probably, I would say, maybe the top most famous female voice actress in the US if I had to pick someone. Got it. I don't know my voice actors, I guess. Caitlin, get it together.

I know. I was delighted to find out that she was big baby she's a big baby yeah yeah yubaba also has a few little minions including a trio of green heads that bounce around she also has a crow that looks like her or like a bird of some kind that looks a lot like her so yubaba makes chihiro sign an employment contract and in so doing takes away chihiro's name and says that her name is now sen for the sake of this recap, I'm going to keep calling her Chihiro. It's what she'd want. Exactly. Yeah.

So then Haku returns to set Chihiro up with a job, but he's acting cold and distant now for some reason. She gets assigned to be Lin's assistant, and Chihiro continues to have a difficult time adjusting and processing all this wild stuff that's going on due to being thrust into child labor because because you're trying to save your parents who are now pigs yes you know they're like the only way to save your parents is child labor I I was like, geez, Miyazaki. But this is all going somewhere. So don't worry. Right. So then Haku, who is nice and warm again, takes Chihiro to see her parents at the pig pen. And Haku tells her that he can't remember his real name and yubaba controls i think like all of the staff of the bath house by stealing their names then she sees haku flying through the air because he can turn into a dragon

he's so crushable that haku yes like yes and i will get plot but like i appreciate how miyazaki yes like yes and I will get plot but like I appreciate how Miyazaki generally doesn't like push romantic narratives particularly on children which a stunning number of children's movies cannot say for some reason but if if you're 10 watching that movie yeah you can see what you want to see you can see a dragon boyfriend in the. You can see a dragon boyfriend in the distance. You can see a dragon friend in the distance. Sure, sure. Eye of the beholder. Yeah. Personally, I saw a dragon boyfriend.

Same, same. I saw a dragon friend. And it could just be because I'm watching this for the first time as a 35-year-old and not thinking about child romances. But I think that's actually really healthy if you yeah i would be concerned if i would maybe be worried if you saw a dragon boyfriend okay also chihiro occasionally passes this spirit who we will come to know as no face but we don't fully meet no face yet so chihiro starts working in the bathhouse and after a while she lets no face in who has just again kind of been lurking around outside chihiro and lynn

have to clean this really big tub and no face helps her get this token she needs for the tub. He seems to, like, really take a liking to Chihiro. I wrote down, embarrassingly, I wrote down, No-Face is like Meatloaf in Fight Club. He's just waiting outside. And he's like, someday, someone's gonna, my day's gonna come. And they're gonna let me in. Interesting.

That is very interesting. That's where the similarities end. But I was like, oh, he's like, I don't know why now anytime someone's waiting outside, I'm like, oh, like Meatloaf and Fight Club. But that's how I dissociate waiting outside for a long period of time. Well, also famously Meatloaf and fight club communicates by going oh oh yeah much like no face so actually the similarities don't end there so meanwhile a stink spirit shows up at the bath house and needs a bath in the big tub that Chihiro and Lin just cleaned.

And everyone is grossed out by the stink spirit, which turns out to not even be a stink spirit. It's a river spirit that just had a bunch of trash lodged in it, which Chihiro figures out and helps get all of the trash out. After that, the river spirit leaves behind a small round ball. I'm not quite sure exactly what it is. It's just a little gift. It's a plot pellet. Right. And also leaves behind a bunch of gold, which very much pleases Yubaba. And Yubaba compliments Chihiro for doing a good job and making her a bunch of money. Now speaking of gold, we learn that No-Face, who is still just sort of lurking around, seems to be able to just conjure gold in his hands, which he uses. Meatloaf and Fight Club could not do that. I think his story would have ended very differently right that would be

a very different movie yeah meatloaf could conjure gold okay okay so no face uses his gold making abilities to lure in a frog and then he eats the frog then we cut to the next day and No-Face is just like going wild. He's eating a ton of food. He's giving away a bunch of gold. Things are going off the rails. Meanwhile, a bunch of what appears to be paper birds are chasing Haku in dragon form and he gets badly injured and is losing a lot of blood so chihiro is kind of rushing around trying to help him trying to save him meanwhile no face is eating people like he's just yeah things went a little too far in capitalism cafeteria um yeah so chihiro is still Capitalism cafeteria. Yeah. So Chihiro is still kind of rushing around,

trying to clean up some messes. She bumps into Yubaba's baby. She also bumps into Yubaba's twin sister, Zaniba, who turns the baby into a mouse and turns the bird into a much smaller bird and zaniba is there because she wants the golden seal that haku had stolen from her which haku later vomits up so chihiro decides to return it to zaniba so that haku will be free of its curse and he will get better chihiro is an angel she's doing a lot of emotional labor she's really yeah she's really doing it all yeah i love her i mean there's always the like you know women are conditioned to apologize too much and she she's taking, like, that's being taken a step further here, because

she's apologizing for... On behalf of her dragon boyfriend. Yes, yes. That's a very Japanese thing, though. Like, it's, I think, like, in general, it's not, it's not necessarily as gendered. I mean, it definitely is in this particular case. But yeah, like, you know, in Japan, it's like, if particular case but yeah like you know in Japan it's like if someone bumps into you you apologize for being in the way it's that kind of thing so yeah um I I do think that I don't think it says like I didn't read it as that way as much maybe that's good to know yeah yeah for for me what so I mean I I appreciate, too, because I just didn't know. I was like, well, it felt more like a friendship sacrifice.

Right. And going to apologize to, I mean, I don't know. I don't know why when a woman apologizes to another woman, I'm like, well, it could be worse. Sure. Okay, so she's about to set off to go to Zanibas to apologize. But first Chihiro has to placate No-Face, who is now way bigger, way more monstrous. He's eaten so much food. He's eaten several other spirits. Chihiro then feeds him the gift from the river spirit which makes no face barf up everything he's eaten including the people and that frog he bar he barfs up the capitalism metaphor

that he was eating yeah and then chihiro lures no face out of the bathhouse and he returns to his former state and accompanies Chihiro, the mouse, and the little black bird on their journey to Zaniba's place. They get on a train. We get that, I think, one of the most iconic shots of the movie where they're sitting next to each other. Meanwhile, back at the bathhouse, Haku wakes up feeling all better and kamaji tells him that love broke the spell so again we're like is this like dragon boyfriend slash girlfriend love is this platonic love it's open to interpretation but love broke the spell so haku goes to yubaba and points out that her baby is gone and she's like oh yeah I guess you're right and he's like well I'll go and retrieve your baby if you tear up Chihiro's contract

and return her and her parents to the human world meanwhile Chihiro arrives at Zaniba's, who tells Chihiro that she'll have to help her parents and Haku on her own, but remembering her past might help with this, especially since Chihiro thinks she's met Haku before. Then Zaniba gives her a little gift. It's a hair tie, a sparkly hair tie. I loved it. I forgot about that detail. It's a nice touch it's so sweet then haku shows up as a dragon and he flies chihiro back to the bathhouse and on the way she remembers meeting haku before because he saved her when she was drowning as a younger kid because haku is actually the Kohaku River,

which no longer exists because it's been filled in by apartments. So you find out your dragon boyfriend is also your river boyfriend and you're just like, ooh, you're 10 years old. You're like, pfft. And then it also does, what is this trope? I'm trying to think of another. Okay, Tuck Everlasting, Twilight, Spirited Away. An eternal being is like, my love interest is a teenager or younger.

And it's not egregious in this movie because it isn't explicit. And again, it's like you can very much opt in or opt out depending on, I guess, how old you were when you first saw the movie, question mark. Yes. Right. But I just, I mean, that is always an interesting trope to see crop up because I feel like it's rarely, I mean, these are usually hetero matchups to begin with. But it's rarely the girl in the equation that gets to be an eternal being it's usually an old man who's 17 but he's actually 500 it's like the peter pan thing yeah totally yeah uh- Well, so she's got a river slash dragon boyfriend.

Awesome. Chihiro and Haku return to the bathhouse where Yubaba has one final test for Chihiro, which she passes. So Chihiro is free. She gets her name back. She reunites with her parents and they walk back to their car and it seems like this all could have been a dream but there are little hints that the whole thing really happened including we see her sparkly headband there's like dust and debris on the car as if it's been there for a long time the implication being it all actually happened

the hairband proves it happened that's her how i beat shack moment we've talked about this moment on the show before i forget why yeah yeah what episode was that that's very funny i don't know i don't but i know that it's the the convention where was it a dream or not? It used to be Wizard of Oz, but then it later became the Aaron Carter, how I beat Shaq. He beat Shaq in his dream. Was it a dream? Well, he woke up and he was wearing Shaquille O'Neal's jersey,

so it wasn't a dream. He did beat Shaq. Sort of like how was Rose dreaming at the end of Titanic? No. And some would say, yes. Everyone's like, yes, she was. She wasn't. And there's no proof. And then and then I say, wait a minute, I think it's just as viable an option if she was dreaming. But irrefutable proof. You don't have a hair tie. You don't have the Shaquille O'Neal jersey. Oh, anyways. Anyway. Let's take a break.

That's the story. Let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks

everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you.

I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110.

120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare.

This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from? Like what's the history behind bacon-wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. your podcasts. And this season, we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history. Seeing that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba, and the piña colada from Puerto Rico. So all of these... We have, we thank Latin culture. There's a mention of blood sausage in Homer's Odyssey that dates back to the 9th century B.C.

B.C.? I didn't realize how old the hot dog was. Listen to Hungry for History as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Ayumi, is there anywhere you would like to start? Anything jumping out to you right away? I guess like there's a lot of context.

I think it's really interesting for this story. Yeah. Yeah. I think in particular, there's like, again, the localization was pretty incredible, all things considered. And I do think that is, again is again a really really big reason why the movie did so well and was so successful in english but i do think that the context for this story and why it stands out compared to earlier ghibli works is really important so

the i guess the main thing being that you know mi Miyazaki has said that he made this movie because he had realized he hadn't made a movie for, like, for young girls yet. Like, I would say Kiki's Delivery Service kind of is, but that is an adaptation. And in this case, like, so what he did is he, like, was interacting, I think, with, like, some daughters of daughters of his friends and realized that like he hadn't made a story for them quite yet. So, you know, I think that's part of why, you know, Chihiro is 10 years old. I think that this story and the way that he kind of got the idea was reading comics that were being published at this time. The readings that I saw specifically cited um nakayoshi magazine and ribbon magazine and these are two of the major uh they're like basically three major uh magazines for young girls in terms of comics that publish monthly and um nakayoshi

is a big one because that's like where sailor moon was published and a bunch of stuff like that and so i was looking back at the uh I went specifically to look back at what was being published in, you know, 1999 and 2000 for what he probably was reading, basically. And, you know, yeah. So, you know, luckily, because these are really big magazines, it's really easy to get the information. And so, you know, just looking at some of the stuff, you know, they're, they're all like, there's, you know, other magical girls at this time. And there's also like stories like UFO baby, which is like an alien baby comes from space, and someone has to take care of it or whatever. Like, there's lots of all kinds of really ridiculous, fun things that happen. There's a lot of sci-fi and fantasy elements in these stories.

But I think that as far as stuff that is kind of relevant to Spirited Away, I think one of the major things is like, you know, a lot of these comics, for one thing, these comics are almost always illustrated and written by women. It's like this particular genre of comics for girls in Japan.

It's a very, it's for, you know, decades now, it's like been a very female-led industry. But, you know, these are stories that are meant to appeal to, like, this exact demographic. So there's often, like, a little bit of romance. There is to have, like, characters, like a haku like character right who is like you know like you mentioned like this kind of eternal boyfriend or whatever um that is not uncommon um but uh yeah i think that one thing that really stands out in comparison to this movie is that a lot of the stories if they have fantasy

or sci-fi elements they're definitely more inspired by western things while Spirited Away of course is extremely Japanese so I do think that that is an interesting like difference I guess if that makes sense totally yeah yeah yeah and I was reading a lot about that context too in terms of you know Miyazaki wanting to create a film specifically for 10 year old girls and which I found interesting because like several of his movies before that are like very appropriate for that specific target demo because like I was watching Totoro as a 10 year old girl like you know Kiki's delivery service

is appropriate for a 10 year old girl even though that character is a few years older but I mean kids love a few years older that's aspirational um yeah that he was like reading these comics and felt that they only offered material about like girls and their crushes and romances. And he felt that that's not what, at least like the, you know, daughters of his friends that he ended up wanting to make this movie for, what they held dear in their hearts. So he wanted to make this movie about a female heroine that those girls could look up to. And that's, I think, one of the other reasons that I didn't read the Haku-Chihiro relationship as a romance. Because he deliberately was like, well, I don't want this to be about crushes and romance.

But he gave us that shot with the hands at the end. So, you know. Right. But also, the movie doesn't center around their relationship. It's more about Chihiro, you know, doing child labor. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely her story, which is important.

And he is like a factor of the story. But like, I think, you you know I definitely see it as like something where I think it's like for example I was trying to think of like how they would take the time to make it an explicit romance and like I guess the thing that would have to happen is like something like them kissing but that really seems unlikely to me because um like not to say that kissing doesn't happen in kids stories or whatever um especially with like hetero uh stories but like kissing is a lot more um for me a lot more adult a lot more sexualized in japanese culture especially at this time um but even today

it's still the case um so it's like it would be very shocking to go that far. I think there would have been issues if they had gone that far. And I think that for the most part with Miyazaki films, they never actually go through like fully going in a romantic route, even if they kind of have a lot of like implied romance and a lot of subtext, which is, you know, nice for the reason, like you said, like you can opt in or out of whether or not you read it as romantic, which I think, I think it's more clear in a story like, like Ponyo, which comes out later. And that's like, taking the Little Mermaid story, but making the characters five, it's very interesting. So it's like, you really can't have

like a romance with five-year-olds that last forever exactly but uh they they so they change things around but um yeah i think with this story like i do like that and i do think that it is a thing where a lot of kids especially young girls who you know might be interested in boys would like appreciate that particular aspect and yeah I think I definitely am I don't I know how should I phrase this most of the most of the kids I know who like grew up with this movie also read it as romantic if that makes sense and when you contextualize it to where Miyazaki was turning for inspiration and like what were girls you know who were his target audience actually reading and you know

pulling from magical girl tropes in a way that felt like it still fit in with who he was as a filmmaker it's like I don't know I I wasn't for the reasons you were describing Caitlin I wasn't really bothered by it because you can read it that way or not it's true to the like subculture for young girls that he's pulling from and the story doesn't fall apart if you don't view it romantically it the story remains basically the same and I also I mean we don't try to get in the habit of handing it to men too much but Miyazaki I will make an exception because just of how I feel like it's very rare to see uh male auteur who we talk about on this show all the damn time and he fits very cleanly into that description but someone who is committed to centering women

in his work very often and also I mean what you were describing I mean it sounds like over time he was more committed to it which I feel like often with male auteurs you see like I'll have one female protagonist so people will leave me alone it might there might be some holes in the story and it might not be good but I did it uh here's my gone girl or whatever you know and she's gone but she's not in the movie anyways but I appreciate that like Miyazaki like you're saying Caitlin like centered girls in his work very frequently, but also was like, but I can take it further and I can,

you know, show this like spiritual growth and like reconciling capitalism and the sins of her parents generation. I also love that this movie hates boomers. It's like, it's fun. Like this movie like has in a way that doesn't really single out Chihiro's parents specifically. But it's clear that like, you know, and then the more that I was reading and researching and I'm curious to talk about this as well, of just how the parent characters and the pigs of capitalism and all that was like reflecting on

japan's fairly recent history as well and i i just i don't know i really enjoyed learning about miyazaki's personal politics through researching this and we'll continue talking about this as we continue talking about these movies but his movies pretty consistently center girls and women they tend to be very anti-war he won an oscar for this movie and didn't show up to the ceremony because he was protesting the war in iraq and america's brutal invasion and like he just really appears to be a real one in many regards. Yeah. Yeah. And like we've been discussing,

he has, it seems a vested interest in exploring the like inner lives of girls and making movies that, I mean, children of all genders can appreciate, but that like girls especially can see themselves reflected in especially because his movies are like applauded for their realism which might sound weird because a lot of them are so uh heavy with fantasy yeah that was a weird way to say that but

heavy with fantasy is really good i like it it's like when you're heavy with Greg, when you're Greg-nit, but you're heavy with fantasy. So, but just like the relatable issues that a lot of the girls in his movies are dealing with. There are a lot of like, you know, coming of age stories. They're dealing with just like different sources of anxiety in their life and we see how that kind of manifests in the super imaginative stories that are told in the movies and I think that's just like such an interesting thing because so many male auteurs don't have that vested interest and they're just like let's make toxic masculinity the movie 500 times in a row or even just like a passing curiosity and another thing i mean that

i appreciate is chihiro's story speaks to kids of all genders and it's it's i also appreciate that too because i feel like sometimes you there's still this kind of convention right now and this movie's 20 years old but there's still a convention of you know taking that like every story is about fathers and sons and then then just being like inverting it and being like okay we're gonna put a girl at the center of this story so things have to be a little different and it it doesn't yeah like she's a relatable motivated character who like messes up sometimes succeeds other times in ways that make kind of a stunning amount of sense in this like nonsense world that she's inhabiting i really liked um

when she first meets haku and she's told you you know, she's being told by everyone, don't trust this person, don't trust this person, don't trust this person. And it was like even unclear to me as a viewer. I'm like, who can she trust? And like watching her navigate that and sometimes take one step in the wrong direction and take a few like it just she's just like a very realistically characterized kid and i like that she's you know rewarded for not just taking gold like she's like there's a dragon dying nearby i can't i can't with your gold right now you know yeah yeah she has very um clear priorities and like i mean i do think i was thinking about like how like in terms of how she moves throughout the story what amount of it is her doing stuff on her own

and like you know at the very beginning you know haku is very clear about telling her what to do but once she gets to kamaji you know with that whole thing um you know it's up to her to actually convince him and she doesn't convince him to get a job there but um she is able to you know it's up to her to actually convince him and she doesn't convince him to get a job there but she is able to you know have an effect to like at least enough of an effect that he like pushes her in the right direction right because it could have all like stopped there if you know he said no and she'd be like well okay I'm screwed but yeah just he's able to keep going and everything so and her her actions there and throughout the movie, but like, again, just kind of from that starting point

in the boiler room, like her choices there affect the trajectory of the story because then she like picks up a piece of coal and then like throws it in the fire. And I guess that shows Komaji like, oh, she is maybe capable and then actually something I found really fascinating about this movie and I think is so it's like so cool that this is clearly or at least the way I interpreted it that the experiences that she goes through in

this story are like manifestations of her anxiety of like moving to a new place and like worrying if people will accept her and like having to reorient everything about her life because she has like left all of her friends behind and everything that was familiar to her and she has to like navigate this extremely unfamiliar situation and like that's so much of what happens externally in the movie so i thought that was like just a really cool way to like show a character's anxieties manifested in like a visual physical way um but part of that is her meeting all these people and like having to just kind of get a sense of them and a lot of the first impressions that we as the audience get and that she gets turn out to be wrong because like for

example Komaji seems way scarier and meaner than he actually is and a lot of that is like kind of the visual thing where it's like he has these long spider like yeah arms there are six of them and he starts out being really annoyed by her but then by the end of that scene he's like she's my granddaughter yeah and then like lynn also seems like just very annoyed by chihiro and it seems like she's going to be that way for the entire movie and I the first time I watched this I was like oh no is this going to be like a needlessly antagonistic relationship between two female characters but it's not because as soon as Chihiro kind of expresses some vulnerability and she's like I don't feel well and I you know she's very clearly overwhelmed by everything

that's happening Lynn is like oh my oh my God, are you okay? And then she kind of takes on this caregiver role or at the very least she becomes her ally and mentor. It feels very big sister-y. Or I guess maybe that was my read of it as a kid. And Lynn's character arc is so interesting to me. I feel like revisiting Lynn's character as like a young adult under capitalism. You really feel for Lynn in a way that I certainly I mean, as a kid, you're 100 percent. You're like, I am Chihiro and that is my dragon boyfriend.

And like, but, you know, at this stage of my life, I feel like the closest analog for most of us is Lynn, who is working in a service role in this big capitalistic entity. She is well-liked, but not well-treated. And you don't get a ton of information about her backstory but what you do is so like so i don't know just like the the economy of storytelling is so good because the really one insight you get into who she is and what she wants is like she watches the train pass every day and wonders like when is it going to be my day to to get on that train and by that she means not working this dead-end job that i don't like and where i'm not treated well and where you know it becomes her responsibility in a way that you know

is it fair is it not it's not fair but i think it's the right thing to do that she she takes on chihiro and almost sees like it seems like a younger version of herself of like well i hope that this kid can get on the train and then she does and it's nice yeah what's interesting is um i think it's really unclear and i think also the voice actress choice in english doesn't really help with this but according to like the original story there's like a i mean this is one of those things there's like so many story notes about this movie uh lynn is supposed to be 14 in the original like iteration oh i know oh yeah i would not have guessed that yeah she's giving me a hard 32 right i know she sounds she sounds like an adult in English for sure and I feel like I definitely got that when I was watching it in English um before but like you know what in

preparation for this podcast I think the first thing I did was I watched the full thing in Japanese without like taking any notes or anything and so I feel like there are a few characters that have pretty distinct differences but hers is definitely the biggest one. So like I think in Japanese, she definitely sounds more like an older sister. But like she's also like a like the way she carries herself. She uses like very like hyper masculine language in a way that like she's like trying to, I guess, make up for the fact that like she is a teenage girl. I think it's really interesting. But yeah yeah i definitely see her as being a very much like a big sister to chihiro for that reason yeah i liked their relationship so much and that there was like even moments towards the end of the movie where there's even like these passing moments in

this movie where the characters are misjudging each other or like not giving like there's that moment that i was like i think it's komaji that says to lynn in a way that i thought was a little bit harsh that you know lynn was like oh what broke the spell on haku and komaji's like love something you've never felt in your life and i was like like, whoa, holy shit. And I was like, I thought you guys were like kind of friends. And he's saying that in kind of the same breath where he's like, yeah,

I've had, I know that it's your one dream in your life to have a train ticket. I've had one for 30 years. Anyways, you've never felt love in your life. I was like, wow, brutal.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think that was very nice to win and then i was worried that i mean i guess that that was it's just like again speaking to like how good this movie is where i feel like especially in kids movies sometimes i am conditioned to think that if there is a line of dialogue spoken by a character that i'm not supposed to hate i interpret their dialogue as the moral compass of the movie sure because that's how a lot of children's movies are written where you're like well i don't know if if fucking lumiere says it it's probably how bad could it be but again there's like shades of gray

in everyone in this movie where like we we like kamaji as a character very much at this point and then he kind of like cuts lynn down in this very i thought kind of i don't know why i was so i was like oh i was scandalized by it and i was worried that i was like oh are we not supposed to like lynn anymore because i still like her and then in the next scene lynn is being her big sister self again and she apologizes to chihiro for calling her a dope which is like i don't know what the translation but i just thought it was like what a what a word to apologize for later she's like sorry i i said that when we first met like you're great and you're blah blah and so that weird off-handed thing from Komaji isn't how the movie felt. That's just how Komaji felt in that moment for some reason.

I'm like, where's Komaji? Apologize to Lynn. That wasn't very nice. Yeah, I noticed a lot because I had the chance to watch it in both languages, I noticed that there are some things where the line read in English is like more sarcastic or more rude in some cases than in Japanese, where it's like more straightforward

or more, maybe not necessarily like polite. Now, I don't remember the line read for like that exact thing. But like one thing I remember for sure is, you know, in like near the beginning, when Haku is going to Chihiro you know, in like near the beginning, when when Haku is going to Chihiro to ask her to like eat the little berry from the spirit world so she wouldn't disappear. In English, he's like, don't worry, you won't turn into a pig like, you know, making a

joke. But like in Japanese, he's completely serious about that line. So it's really interesting. Like, there are there are definitely some interesting things where like there are kind of added things due to the the localization which isn't bad i think you know it's a very very good localization and i think again that is part of why it's so successful um yeah that's fascinating i hate to give disney a lot of credit but yeah right especially because like john lassiter had so much involvement in this and you're like oh never pleasant to see him yeah because like because of him um he like they took on doing all the other ghibli movies from before and so um it's kind of interesting to like look back at old like older ghibli movies from before. And so it's kind of interesting to like look back at old,

like older Ghibli movies that have now been dubbed by Disney and see like more familiar. There are a lot of Disney names and so on. But I mean, I think it's good because they're very good at localizing and they did a lot of like things to like kind of fill in

like cultural things that might not be as clear to an English speaking audience. Like there are lines that are completely different because like they're trying to like explain something because, you know, you can because like Chihiro gives the first half of that little the little ball to Haku. And that's when he like vomits out the seal and the slug. Right, right, right. Yeah. And she has to step on it. And they like explain the whole thing with like putting her forefinger and thumb together. And they don't explain that in Japanese.

They just do it. Right. But because Kamaji's off screen they're able to like add that line in and stuff so it was like very very clever yeah and helpful that's for me yeah that i mean i wish i wish i knew more about that process without having to watch 20 minutes of john lasseter talking because it is so fascinating like yeah I think I mean I have the blu-ray in uh in English because wow brag yeah um but uh so you can watch it I think the North American blu-ray has both the English and French dub as well as the original Japanese

and even the French localization is different it's really interesting interesting yeah i mean and in the disney dub i mean you we i guess mentioned this right away where i was like hercules but they they really i mean and usually when i say usually when anyone says disney it's pejorative but it in this one it was kind of it was like funny to me just like how specifically this era disney the dub cast is where literally the voice of lilo is the voice of chihiro the voice of max goof of a goofy movie is haku like it's so disney what about an extremely goofy movie though yeah same guy same guy he still got work uh the guy who did cogsworth and beauty and the beast is kamaji i mean the list goes on it's it's a whole lot of whole lot of um yeah anyways yeah yeah Let's take a quick break and come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

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I just had a few more thoughts on Chihiro's character before we kind of move into the next area. Yeah. I mean, one thing that struck me, I mean, is, and this is, again, such a small thing, but I like that she is consistently positioned as, even when she is confused and doesn't know what to do, she's always positioned as a strong, resilient character. never posed as like a reason to judge her in a way that sometimes I think we're like conditioned to see female characters especially young female characters as like helpless and damseled and unable to get out of their predicament on their own a lot of that is due to Disney movies that

you know we're working on the same movie or or the like uh the i guess converse of that is that the right word why did my brain shut off anyway the inverse i was like it's not converse that can't be right the inverse of that is the precocious you know 10 or 12 year old girl that we see all the time where they somehow are geniuses with phds and they know everything about all adult things none of that is is present in chihiro and on top of that like she is not i mean she is she openly cries at several times in the story in a way that again it's just like she's allowed to have these moments of strength and decisiveness she's allowed to have moments where she has no idea what the fuck is going on because like you as the viewer

have no idea what the fuck is going on right and you have moments where she like very understandably in the way that any character but particularly a 10 year old who's just lost her parents to becoming a pig which also i was like i wonder how miyazaki was into animal farm and the answer is very he was very into animal farm and uh it shows but but that she's allowed these moments of intense emotional vulnerability in a way that doesn't take like it only elevates her character because i feel like that it just like reminds you as an adult viewer now like this is a child who is yeah in the and like of course she's going to cry when confronted with yet another stranger who she doesn't know if she can trust or not and i liked that she's very much

a hero and an aspirational character for kids watching but in a way that again for the for the genre and like the situation she's in feels really realistic of like how a kid would react in that situation yeah um can we talk about the first time she cried because that's like a really i think a big i think one of the visually one of the more iconic parts of the whole movie but yeah because like for the first part of her being in the bathhouse, she's like kind of just holding everything in, you know, doing what she has to do and like not really complaining about it or anything, just like being really headstrong because she has to be.

But then it's like we see that, you know, she's having trouble sleeping. And then Haku, like while she's in the room with all the other women, he kind of like sneaks in and is like, oh, meet me by, you know, this by the bridge. And she goes and like they do the whole thing with the parents. And he gives her her clothes back because she needs them to go back to the human world. And she and also the card so she can remember her name. And then he gives her the rice balls, which he says, I don't know if there actually is a spell on them or if he's just saying that, but he says like, oh, this will give you your strength back.

And I think it's basically the same in Japanese. And that's the first time she cries. And she cries so big, like her eyes well up in her, like it's just like her entire eye just like turns into a puddle. It's definitely an iconic like visual to say the least but i think it's really interesting that like it's when she's you know finally given that chance to be vulnerable and like let it all out that like you can really see that she is has been holding in those tears the whole time oh yeah yeah and that's what's so great about this movie and again i haven't watched all of miyazaki's

work but of the ones that i have seen and can speak to his treatment of these characters in showing them being active and making choices but making mistakes and being vulnerable but having the strength to go on and do what you need to do and just like all of these like aspirational and empowering qualities that like young girls can see and admire that to me is the most like one of the most, like one of the most effective versions of feminism in movies, more so than, for example, my favorite example to make fun of is like, when in whatever Avengers movie, when all of the, like seven female superheroes, like start walking beside each other, and they're like, and now it's our turn turn and we're gonna have this one moment for 20 seconds in the movie where we're awesome to protect spider-man right like it's so this is

like truly just treat women like people like that's all you just described is treating a female character like a person like a person person. A complicated person. Which like when I was reading a few different accounts of like people being like, it's so cool that your movies are so feminist, Miyazaki. And he was like, I don't know about that. I just want to entertain people and write interesting characters. So yeah, like that's all it takes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. in characters so yeah like like that's all it takes yeah yeah definitely like obviously i'm really happy that this movie does feature a 10 year old girl but you wouldn't have to change anything about the movie if it was about a 10 year old boy or a 10 year old on my my dairy child so like it's yeah it's it's pretty great right yeah i love i love chihiro so much um

also she saves a boy she doesn't have to be well i guess i mean you can make an argument that like he at the beginning like saves her a little bit and like gets her away from immediate danger but it feels like an exchange of yeah maybe i'm cutting it too much like but like it feels like an a friendship exchange yeah and then because she saves him by going on a long journey with her new friends on a train and apologizing and yeah all that and you know feeding him a ball yeah yeah should we should we talk about capitalism sure let's do it feel like it was gonna come up hit it yeah so i i again i don't know i i learned a lot about the end of the 20th century economy in japan via learning about this movie i'm sure we all did maybe you you probably do more than we did already um just a little this movie is like

really interesting i mean the way that it gets a a really solid criticism of capitalism that it can work for anyone but also works very specifically for japan at the time this movie came out and works again like both ways is so incredible to me where it's like i guess speaking to it in the broad sense the bathhouse is this capitalist entity you know you have your uh your character at your at the top you're you babas of the world um she's dressed in a more i think traditionally like western way she doesn't interact with the working class like her whole i mean and it's like to the point where it's like she's known for taking your name stripping you of your identity overworking you and being very very unfeeling toward anyone who isn't her own plight she's only responsive

to people once she finds out that they have money and even then i mean i think i think it's just another like shade of gray that comes up in this movie is like she's very like mr crabs motivated i would say uh by yeah by money when she finds out that uh no face has a ton of money at first she's thrilled until no face becomes too unruly and too other and then she's like okay you're actually a monster and you're you're bad you have to get the fuck out and she did essentially one the a different version of the same thing to the stink monster when he came in where it's like okay i'll take your money but I'm not going to respect you or consider your plight and just like yeah and and then you know putting Chihiro in in in kind of contrast to that

where Chihiro like she doesn't want to financially profit from being trapped here she just wants her family and she wants her basic needs met and she wants her friends to be okay you know but she's like put into child labor i mean yeah and then on the other end you've there's just so many different like different ways and then with lynn you have another perspective of like someone who clearly resents the capitalist system but feels stuck there and feels unable to get out and she's very much a cog in a wheel and then this i'm not quite as sure of um so if anyone knows more please uh jump in but i based on the research i was doing and like reading interviews that were happening at the time of the release of this movie um i thought it was like i learned at least a little from what Chihiro's parents are supposed to represent in terms of like the specific moment they appear in where.

And again, I didn't know this. I mean, it was like pretty true in the US as well. But like that in the 80s, you know, there is a huge capitalist fucking boom across extremely industrialized nations and it sounds like a lot of what Miyazaki was trying to say with the parent characters in you know them disrespecting the spiritual grounds that they arrived on consuming consuming consuming without any care for whose work they were consuming who was making it whether they were gonna pay or not they were consuming, who was making it, whether they were going to pay or not. They were just sort of like, who cares? It's here. Let's go nuts.

And that as a criticism of that generation of middle class, upper middle class and above in Japan, that is just, I mean, I definitely didn't know that when I was 10. I know, I know. What? Yeah. just i mean i definitely didn't know that when i was 10 i know what yeah another thing i thought was cool about chihiro's character specifically was again and it's her who figures out that the stink spirit is not actually a stink spirit it's you know there's something else going on there was

like something wedged in that spirit's body and it turns out to be a bunch of like pollution basically right so we also have some like cool environmental themes happening but um she figures it out chihiro saves the day with that river spirit and the river spirit leaves behind all of this gold and yubaba is like oh my gosh chihiro actually you're awesome now thank you so much and it's not until that happens that yubaba respects chihiro in any way and for maybe a different person they'd be like oh well if i can make my boss more money right then i'll get more respect so then i should make it a point to try to make my boss more money. But instead Chihiro is like,

every time gold is offered to her, she's like, I don't want your fucking gold. I'm trying to help out my dragon boyfriend. She's always like, there's a dragon fleeting nearby. So I thought that was cool. And leftist icon Chihiro. Yeah.

I think what's really interesting, and this is kind of, again, like I get really present in a lot of Japanese media for girls is that like the fact that she doesn't really care about money, it also does feel like a part of like her upbringing and her

privilege that she's never had to worry about money. That's true. Yeah, especially the way that like her father talks about, you know know how it's okay they're gonna eat all this food because he has credit cards and cash you know like no problem but like and that definitely does sound like something parents at the time might say but i do think that um it's it's kind of i guess i have mixed feelings about her not caring about money because um it definitely is you know a thing where like when she refuses to take gold from from No-Face in that one scene, which because she's trying to go help Haku.

The one guy was like, oh, don't worry about her. She's just a human. She doesn't know any better. And it does feel like human is a kind of placeholder for child in that way where where it's like children don't know about money. Like they don't know any better. Yeah. Yeah, it is complicated. But that's why I'm glad that Lynn is there to like present a sympathetic character that we're rooting for who is stuck in it.

And unfortunately, I feel like we're led to believe that she kind of remains stuck in it. We kind of leave her there. It's not like she got on the train, unfortunately which again is like i don't know i mean that's an interesting bittersweet i hope komaji had another ticket i don't know i can't believe he told her he had another ticket the whole time that's so mean uh anyways team lynn over here because you would you would you're led to believe I mean that you know Lynn probably did not grow up with very much if that's a job that she is unable to leave so you're totally

right Amy where it you know Chihiro does I mean she benefits from the privilege of being a child and not having to but also she she benefits from being a child who like worrying about money has, we're sort of led to believe is not a big issue for her because her parents are driving out capitalists who turn into, yeah. Yeah. Orwellian, uh,

you know, Orwellian figures. So, so there's, yeah, there's definitely, I appreciate that there's at least foils to, to that.

And then especially, and then that leads right into the fact that like, we were joking about it, but the fact that, you know, Chihiro is constantly like, I don't want your money. There's a dragon bleeding in the other room. The dragon bleeding in the other room is Haku, who ends up being this, you you know big metaphor for the environment because and right again just like another one offline that revisiting it now you're like oh my god like where you know they're they're literally falling out of the sky having a very calm conversation which i love um and and yeah she's like she's like you're the And he's like, I am the river. Damn, it's true. That's exactly what he says.

Propaganda. But then she's like, I know what that river is. They filled it in and it's apartments now. And he's like, oh, that must be why I'm not a river anymore. And like just that, you know, now you're like, oh, you know exactly what Miyazaki is trying to do. And then Haku is also utilized as a character as, I think, I mean, as I guess kind of yet another in into capitalism commentary that's different from Lin's

because he is this environmental symbol who ends up in the pocket of capitalism which um like he is you baba's like uh you know he's her what her assistant her apprentice and it sounds like he's again i'm like i don't know that i feel bad when someone steals from you baba oh yeah no people seems like redistribute your baba's holdings except for the baby and uh you know best of luck to the baby shout out to the baby who's like the baby was supposed to represent but no i it was really big i actually do think there's something i have i do have thoughts about um bo the baby um oh because so like i mean yubaba is uh for anyone who is listening for some reason and hasn't watched the movie yubaba is uh very differently

designed from all the other characters she does does have, like, Western-style dress. She also has a giant head, and that's part of why she has a giant baby. But she's also, like, an older woman. She gave birth out of her giant head. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where. But in any case, yeah, like, we don't really know much about, like, why she would be an older woman with this baby.

But this baby is huge, but also still mentally very much a baby. And then we later learned that the baby can, in fact, speak perfectly fine and speaks in full sentences. And it's it's like very interesting because it's like this is a baby that has been for as long as we know, like for its whole life has been trapped in this one room. And, you know, he's like, afraid of going outside, which is like, kind of almost like the polar opposite to Chihiro's situation to me. Right. We're like, she's, yeah, she's exploring a whole new world. She's facing all these challenges herself. And even if she is afraid, she doesn't let that stop her from moving forward. So I think it's really interesting. And then, and I wanted to say, because we haven't talked about it yet, but I think the names of the

characters are very important. And in particular, like, so the big word that's used a lot in this story is spirits, which would be kami in Japanese. But when it comes to mythology stuff, it's not really one to one. And kami can be both spirits and then full on gods. So like, and in particular, Kohaku's name, his real name is actually different in Japanese. So his his name in Japanese is Nikihayami Kohakunishi. And it's meant to invoke like the name of a god. So the idea is like he was a full on god and then like, cannot return home because of, you know, environmentalism. So she's got a dragon boyfriend slash river boyfriend slash god boyfriend. Yes. Magical girl tropes. Yes, yes, very much so my boyfriend is god yeah yeah exactly so it's uh

it's pretty interesting um yeah it's like it's not really like clear but like you could definitely make that like distinction that like he is he was a god before you know all this and again he's a god that looks 12 years old apparently so yeah right that's fascinating i i had no idea yeah um but yeah the the names are so interesting to me in general for the movie if it's okay to talk about it oh please please yes so like even the name um chihito itself it's like this name was at the time one of the most popular like names. Like it's basically like the most not the most average name for a 10 year old, but pretty average for a 10 year old at this time. I actually went through the data of like name rankings in Japanese and found that like her name peaked at the number four spot in 1990. OK. It's not really as big now. found that like her name peaked at the number four spot in 1990. Okay.

It's not really as big now. I think for the most part, people who named their kids Chihiro these days are specifically naming it after this character. This character. Yeah. But her name basically means like a thousand questions. So like she's like asking a thousand things.

So the Chi in her name, once you take away the second part it does become sen so sen means 1000 in japanese so that's like very deliberate and you know the the japanese title of this movie is uh sen to chihiro no kamikakushi so sen and chihiro's spiriting away yeah and the other thing i think that's really interesting about the way the movie looks um like the kind of spirit restaurant area that they go to before the bathhouse. I believe it is very inspired by a specific place in, I want to say, I can't remember if it's Taiwan or China specifically, but there is like an actual place. And the food that the parents eat is, those are real things you can eat which is pretty cool

but I do think it's interesting that they went outside of Japan for those for those images and like all the signs and stuff are super weird I think my favorite one is I was looking at some like there's a shot where you know she's first running through and you start to see spirits. And there's like lanterns that say, come here, but backwards. So it's like super creepy. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. And then the bathhouse itself, I think the first thing is the name of the bathhouse is written backwards.

And you can be the you in like you,aba, for example, it means hot water. But for the bathhouse name, they don't use Yu as in hot water. They use Yu as in oil, which is really interesting. So you see that the character for oil everywhere. Yubaba's name basically just means like hot water lady or hot water grandmother. I don't know. It's like kind of, it's not a really direct translation and then her twin sister zeniba zenny is comes from like a public bath which is

interesting so it's like two different yeah okay because she's the twin of the people yeah right yeah yeah for sure um yeah and then like names like uh like Kamaji just means pretty literally boiler old man. Like, it's very, yeah. But yeah, those are, I guess, for me, those are the major names. There is a shot where you can see all the names, where they're kind of turning their time cards, I guess. They all have their names on them. And you can see they're all super short names

that were clearly like taken from a longer name i think that's really cool um right to say like yubaba stole their original name and replaced it with something like simpler yeah basically yeah so it's uh it's pretty cool it's pretty uh interesting so you can assume the same thing happened to uh lynn as well um right right yeah her name used to be caitlin oh i wanted i i do wish we knew a little more about lynn but it's like we what we do learn it's like enough for the story to to work and work and work but uh i was just like oh i want to know we got to find out what Haku's deal was. What is Lin's deal? I didn't know that this was going to radicalize me in favor of working class icon Lin.

But she's got the union going in there now. I know it. I know it. Or maybe she escaped in that little like circular paddle boat thing. Hmm. Hard to say. I wanted to talk about the character design specifically of Yababa and Zaniba, since they are identical, where they are the only two old women in the story and the character design and i guess this is subjective but

it's not the most flattering i do that character wow hot take i mean maybe some people look at yababa and it was like wow what a sexy bitch but and and they're right to do so well maybe maybe more zinni but yubaba is uh bad but right yeah like that i i think the any older i mean they're the only older women in the story and they're pretty aggressively othered in how they appear and how they look and i was worried that like this movie was leaning into villainizing the only old female character we get to know especially because we only zaniba doesn't show up until maybe like halfway through the movie or maybe even later than that it's longer yeah yeah so for a long time it's just this one older female character and she's the villain and she's designed to be pretty grotesque and

scary and all this stuff so i was concerned about the handling of that and then you meet zaniba who is similarly scary and aggressive at first but then she's one of those characters who seems one way at first and then when we see her again like when chihiro pays her a visit to give back the golden seal suddenly she's this sweet granny type yeah literally granny making scrunchies on a loom you're like oh yes granny and then i love how she kind of takes in no face too yeah nice i was i i didn't quite know where to fall there because i i did feel for the vast majority of the movie yeah the only older woman is othered pretty aggressively in a way that like if you read it from a moralistic standpoint you're like well yeah she's the you know she is the capitalist overlord of the story

but also she's the only older woman in the story and that seems maybe a little unfair and the other thing that i did pick up on there that is something we've talked about with animated movies before it's always like a little ping annoyance for me because i work in animation and i'm always like can we not do this and it always happens um is we have a lot of different like i don't know like the spirits come in all different forms they're all different animals they're all different you know they're they're drawn and characterized all very differently but there's really only any sort of like variety in male coded characters all the women basically look like some version of a youngish woman who is a human right and that always bugs me that like no matter how progressive you find an animation it's always like well we don't want to we don't want to like have a fun mix of uh body types and

species in a movie where literally anything canon does happen so that was like a little thing that i always kind of get frustrated by the most egregious example that i think we've talked about caitlin it's like i always think of it as like Ghostbuster syndrome where all the male coded ghosts are like, I'm a pile of shit. And then like the woman is like, I'm a human woman. That's really horny. And you're like a super sexy, horny ghost lady. And obviously this is not, you know, a sin of that caliber. But I did.

I did. I was like, man, most of the women women we meet with the exception of the other older woman villain they all kind of look like generally attractive youngish human women yeah yeah yeah and i mean we haven't really talked about like it's kind of hard to talk about diversity in this movie which is mostly about a bunch of spirits so not like a lot of human characters or anything but um you know like the only time uh like yeah the only character who is has any sort of other body shape is you know you got as anybody who again are drawn identically and then so there's like that really silly thing where ziniba's like how can you not tell me apart

from your own mother to Bo the baby? And it's like, because you guys are drawn exactly the same. And she's also the only, like Zaniba, who is supposed to be the nice old lady, is the only character that like actually says something fat phobic to Bo. Like she comments on him being really fat, like, you know, a chubby baby.

And I mean, he's a giant giant baby but he's still very baby shaped i don't know right yeah he's not like grotesque or anything like it's not it's not he's not like drawn in an exaggerated way like to look like a very particularly scary baby he's just like a very big fat baby right like most babies are fat right yeah like uh do you guys know what movie we're watching yeah exactly um but yeah like it's you know there isn't really a lot of like i would it would be really cool to have more diversity of like especially with the the female spirits like how they look it's like basically there are two types of female spirits there like how they look. It's like, basically, there are two types of female spirits. There's the ones with, like proportion heads that are similar to humans, like Lynn, and then there's the ones that have like very large heads. And that's it. Like, that's a, that's a variety in

female characters in this movie. Yeah. But the others, no other particular, like, and again, we only have like, basically one human family that we're looking at so there isn't a lot of i guess room for diversity but it would have been nice if there was a little bit more yeah true yeah i mean speaking to chihiro's parents what we do know of them i do at least appreciate that it's like they're both damseled by the story like it's not one you do get that thing that i think we bump up in movies a lot where it's like the dad is more gregarious and likable and like seems to be less of the disciplinary and then chihiro's mom um wasn't a huge issue for me because they're barely in the movie but i don't know yeah yeah he's i guess he's he's kind of like the fun dad but also

her mom goes right along she's it's if anyone's like the come on don't you guys stop it it's chihiro oh yeah chihiro is the one that's like we're capitalizing too close to the sun you guys yeah because her mom's like yeah i'll fucking i'll eat all this food i'll go down this tunnel i don't give a shit yeah you know uh their names don't come up in the actual text but they do have names and i think it's really funny because um her father's name is akio which uh the kanji for which is a bright husband and um and then her mother's name is Yuko, which is like, the kanji is basically like, what's it called, like a calm child. And the child part being like, that's a factor of, you know, Japanese girls' names, especially at the time in older generations, in recent years has like kind of fallen out of favor. But child was a very common character to use in girls names compared to adults

being used in boys names it's whatever but um yeah but like the idea like she's like that their names really match their personalities and their generation but um yeah it's like they're they're very much like chosen like kind of stock characters if that makes sense. Yeah, that does. That's interesting. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? My last thing was just No-Face. We've talked about No-Face a bunch where at different times they appear as this capitalism metaphor and then other times. I liked the, mean chihiro has this i guess like

childlike in a good way but also just like this kind of superhuman ability of like forgiveness and a willingness for like almost i think you can make an argument for like Chihiro believes in restorative justice. With at least with no with with no face and also with the stink monster where she's, you know, the central character who does not judge people based on how they look. Or I think like through the story learns to, you know, at least challenge her first impressions of people or what she's told to think about the people and spirits and creatures that she meets. And I was touched by her relationship with No Face, which in my memory, I think it's just because like that iconic image of them together. I remembered the movie as them being together way more than they actually are not true they're actually not together very much um but just that you know no no face does some shit like no face is really committing some crimes in there and uh eating some poor people yes which which i also would not have been upset if chihiro was like no face it's been real um but you need to go to therapy and work on

yourself right and then we can talk not my i'm not gonna take on this emotional labor at this time no face um which also would have been totally fair and i would have been completely happy with that but i just thought it was an interesting creative choice which maybe again like puts we've mentioned this like uh you know chihiro's taking on a lot of people's shit uh in this story in a way that you know maybe it certainly isn't fair to her but she does it willingly it seems like and out of her own nature and i appreciated how you know once it felt like no face demonstrated a desire to not behave the way that they were behaving and they uh you know freed the people that they ate from themselves and then chihiro

was like okay let me get you out of this horrible like out of this like toxic environment and take you to granny and see how you do. I just thought that was an interesting, I guess I don't know what like moralistically could go either way, but I thought it was an interesting choice. Yeah. I feel similarly conflicted. Yeah. She does blame the bathhouse specifically for causing no face to be this way,

which is interesting. Right. And also probably another iconic shot of this movie is like, well, cause like, you know, he is violently vomiting all over the bathhouse and chasing. What did you do to me? And in doing so, there is a part where Yubaba tries to fight him off and gets also covered in no face vomit. And that is that's nice. I like that.

I like that part. I was a big fan of that as well yeah loved it yeah um any anything else uh that folks want to cover i think that's it for me yeah same here does spirited away pass the bechdel test. Yes, it does. Chihiro and Yubaba, Chihiro and Lin, Chihiro and Zaniba. My favorite pass was, can't you even manage a yes ma'am or a thank you? Yes ma'am. What a dope. Hurry up.

You're like, pass. I think the pass is like in the first scene because like the whole first scene is you know, Chihito's mother talking to chihito as they're driving yeah true yeah so like right away wow now on to the main event the nipple scale wow nipple scale zero to five nipples based on looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens

i will give spirited away i'm like somewhere around a four or four and a half i think there are some issues with some of the character designs with uh the female characters or female coded characters specifically. But other than that, I can't really complain about much else because I, and you know me, I love to complain. We've made a career of it. Truly. So yeah,

I mean, just between the protagonist of this movie being a relatable and active female character who is someone that can be admired by the target demo of specifically 10-year-old girls, according to Miyazaki, but also people of all age ranges people of all genders it's just such a cool character such an interesting story just watching like the choices she makes and the the friendships she develops and um I don't know it's just like it's all really it just seems like effortlessly feminist again not to hand it to an auteur man but it's just like i don't know it's it's great um i'll give it four and a half nipples one will go to chihiro one goes to lynn one goes to zaniba i'll give one to no Face, especially No Face pre and post bathhouse.

No Face's behavior in the bathhouse, again, seduced by capitalism. But No Face overcomes that and gets a job as Zaniba's knitting slash weaving apprentice. So that's fun uh and then my half nipple will go to non-binary icon the soot balls i'll go four and a half as well i i really love this movie i think that it's doing so much that movies in general are not doing effectively much less movies that are accessible to everyone i i love chihiro i love the environmental message the capitalism message for the most part works for me there's little moments where you're like but for the most part i i think it's really well done and and clearly just based on what i now know of miyazaki's politics and track record

all come from a very good place yeah i i love you know kind of his cinematic mission and tendency to center female characters and the fact that like you were saying earlier ayumi like there it wouldn't have made a difference there could have been a kid of any gender in this character and it would have been just as impactful and wonderful some of the animation choices i mean it's a gorgeously animated movie uh that's not the issue it's just yeah the the a few a few tropes with how women are animated in large animation projects were still present here in a way that i was hoping it wouldn't be but it's a little thing in a way that I was hoping it wouldn't be, but it's a little thing in a movie that's doing so much right and holds up so

well. I would show this to a kid that wouldn't be awake, crying their eyes out over some of the more horrific images in it anytime. So I'll go four and a half nipples i'm gonna give two to chihiro i'm gonna give two to the baby and i'm gonna give the last half oh wait sorry taking them from the baby giving them to lynn baby gets half a nipple done okay perfect um yeah i think i kind of almost want to match you guys but i think i'm gonna go with four nipples on this one um so you know the reasons that you mentioned are really good one thing we didn't talk about that i forgot uh we probably should

have mentioned is like in terms of every episode we're like oops there's a whole huge thing we forgot to say in terms of like the production um I couldn't find any women in the major roles of this movie. Oh, yes. So that is, yeah, that that takes away a half nibble for me. And then the other half is yeah, the representation and stuff. I think overall, it's just a really great movie. Again, you know, it was the top movie in Japan for almost 20 years for good reason. Like, you know, it was the top movie in Japan for almost 20 years for good reason. Like, you know, you can still show this today. There's a, you know, the stage show going on in Tokyo.

Like right now, this story is still very accessible now. So it's just a really like, it's just a great story. And the fact that it's able to translate so easily to everyone around the world is, yeah, it's great. And it's also the reason why we got more Ghibli localizations moving forward. So, yeah. As far as who gets the nipples, goodness, I should have thought about this. Everything's riding on this. Yes.

I think, hmm, definitely one to Chihiro and one to Lin. You know, I'll give one to Zuniba just because, like, you know, the problem is with her character and mostly just because of how she's drawn and that's, you know, not her fault. And I'll give one to the little bird. Not the big bird, but the little bird, who's an icon as well. Yes. Yes. Love that. Oh as well. Yes. Yes.

Love that. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's been an honor and a privilege. Oh, my goodness. Come back anytime. Yes. Yes, I would love to.

Where can people follow you on social media? Tell us about your podcast. Tell us about anything you'd like to tell us about your podcast tell us about anything you'd like to tell us about yeah um so i guess you know the first thing if you liked what i had to say today you can find me on twitter and instagram at ayushinos so that's a-y-u-s-h-e-k-n-o-w-s and if you're a fan of the magical girl genre, I talk about it every week with fans and sometimes creators on sparkle side chats with magical girl. Are you,

and you can find those on Twitter and Instagram at magical girl. Are you, let's see. Also, I made my voice acting debut this earlier this year, and that's on the side. Thank you. I'm on the sci-Fi Western Anthology Podcast

Breathing Space Fading Frontier. I'm in one episode of season two, but it was a lot of fun. And if you are interested in that genre, you should just listen to the whole podcast. But yeah, it's pretty awesome. Congrats. Thank you. And then finally, my most recent thing that I, like my most recent translation project was this anthology of sapphic comics featuring butch and butch relationships

that are created by queer and trans Japanese artists. It's called Boyish Boyish and spelled like Boyish squared. But yeah, you can find that if you search for Boyish to book on the socials, you should be able to find that everywhere. And, you know, they're working on, like, they want to be able to make another, like another edition, like a part two of that anthology. So, you know, if the more people, you can buy a digital copy or a physical copy, I think.

So, you know, it's a really great a beautiful bunch of stories um yeah it was so fun to work on it was like a dream project so that's awesome yeah hell yeah i will we'll link that in the description as well we'll be linking everything um thank you so much for joining us again and and um for kicking off the Miyazaki uh unit Miyazaki month I keep hesitating to say month because I I fear that we yeah we'll not get it all done at once but we will get it all done eventually yes yeah and you can follow us on twitter and instagram at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our Matreon. That's at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. It gets you two bonus episodes every month,

plus access to the entire back catalog of bonus episodes. And you can always get merch over at tpublic.com slash the Bechtelcast. With that, we can't look back it's hard to say did the podcast happen we'll never know wait a minute wait a minute I have this shiny hair tie I'm wearing a jersey that says Shaquille O'Neal what does it mean it all all happened. It happened. Okay, bye-bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated.

Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

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