The Bechdel Cast - Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

We're celebrating Caitlin's birthday with an episode on Star Wars Empire Strikes Back (1980)!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Jamie, I am your father. Join me.

We can rule this podcast as father and son. I like that you didn't change. You only added the word podcast. And then I'm like, no, I would sooner free fall into space. Then rule this podcast with you, you sicko, fascist. Wow. Oh, yeah, I know. It's my birthday, though.

I know. Sorry, happy birthday, but you did, you brought it on yourself. We can't excuse fascism just because it's your birthday, Caitlin. Happy birthday. Thank you. It's true. This is my birthday episode. Big year.

Holy shit. Yeah, I'm 40, bitch. I love it. I love it. And you've, well, tell the listeners at home how you've been celebrating. It's kind of been, I like that for, you are so good at having a birthday and it becomes birthday season, not birthday the day. Yeah, it's a whole, this time around, it's a whole year. I started in April.

My birthday is in a few days from the release of this episode. But I started back in April by going to London to see Paddington the musical. That was my big birthday treat to myself. And it did not disappoint. It was so good. I'm so happy for you. That is like, yeah, the second it happened, I was like, I know that Caitlin is going to find their way there. It really is just a matter of when.

Yeah. But you made quick work of it. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I was very efficient. But yeah. And one of the other ways I'm celebrating is by making us talk about Empire Strikes Back. Which I am actually, I mean, wow, life comes at you fast because I'm so.

happy to do it. And I can't imagine myself saying that when this podcast started. No. I mean, this is just like a big nostalgia year, especially us wise, because it's our 10 year. We're still figuring out how to celebrate, you know, but I think so much about how I remember like your 30th birthday show at Nerd Melt. Yeah. And how that was a time where it was around the time that the Star Wars sequels were starting to come out and I just couldn't have cared less. But time continued to march on and then I realized I was wrong as hell. These movies are fun. They're good.

They're fun and flawed. And guess what? I'm not better than a damn person in the world, unlike I thought when I was 22 or whatever. So I'm so excited. Yeah. I mean, should we, I guess if this is your first Bechtel, cast episode. Welcome. It's a fun one. And we'll tell you what the show is really quick. This is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies and in this case, Caitlin's

favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as the jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what is that? What is that? Not to quiz you on your birthday. Yeah, wow, making me do labor. It is a media metric created by our dear friend of the podcast, Alison Bechdel. Quick version is. And our version is that do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is there a conversation about something other than a man? And I think you'll find the reason that we're kind of glazing over the specifics of the test in a case of this movie is because, well, it doesn't pass even...

Doesn't apply even a little bit to this movie. So, you know, like there are certain episodes where we get really specific about like, well, it could mean this. it could be this, but there are certain movies where you're like, well, it either, it's episodes where it happens a lot or never even runs the risk of happening. And this is, this is the latter. We don't really need to get into the nitty gritty today. No, we don't. But we do need to get into the nitty gritty of our relationship with Star Wars. And Jamie, you were already talking a little bit about yours, but tell us, what's your relationship with this movie specifically? and then the larger universe.

Yeah, it's been, it's been a journey. We actually, we talked about this a fair amount in our prequels tour, which happened early last fall in the Midwest, where my relationship with Star Wars began with the prequels. I just was not a sci-fi kid at all. I was not sci-fi or fantasy. I know we were very different. sci-fi fantasy action were just not my vibe i was like performatively to criticize myself at 11 years old

uh performatively against a lot of it okay because i don't know i had this mentality that like magic was cheating so that's why i i don't know but star wars obviously i i remember i didn't see the first prequel in theaters i did see the second one at a drive-in and remember it being the first movie I was like, wow, that was boring. And you were not wrong. I was not wrong. And you can listen to our prequels episode for more on that. And then the third one I performatively loved because they like kind of turned

Darth Vader into like a sexy hot topic character, which I was into. So all over the place. But I never really watched or engaged with the original trilogy when I was a kid. So I wouldn't have seen the Empire Strikes Back at least until I lived in L.A. I would guess not for the first time until like the last five years probably. I just never. I mean, and then it definitely rewatched it last summer when I was doing like pretty heavy prep on the prequel and the original trilogy. Yeah, for our tour.

Yeah. For our tour. So I can now confidently say all this yada, yada, yada, yada. I can now confidently say that Empire Strikes Back is indeed my favorite of the first trilogy. It's a lot of people's favorite, I would say. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a controversial opinion. But it like it just, it hits. It hits.

And it, I mean, while it makes a lot of the mistakes that movies of its era also make, there's a lot of tokenism, there's a lot of like there's, we'll talk about it. But I think that in terms of mistakes that Star Wars often makes, it tends to avoid a few that I associate with this franchise in a way that I appreciate. And the performances are so fun. It's a great story. I love Lawrence Kastin. I enjoyed learning about Lee Brackett, who I didn't really know anything about. Same. And yeah, I don't know.

I just, this is my favorite one of the trilogy. Although I think that, because I know your favorite is Return of the Jedi, that. that while that's not one that I love, I do love the Ewox. And if the Ewox were in Empire Strikes Back, it would be a perfect movie. I agree. Yes. Thank you. I know that I cite Ewox as the reason that I love Return of the Jedi the most.

And that's not entirely true. There are other things I like about it. And also, and I might have brought this up before either on this podcast or I've guessed on other Star Wars things in the past. But the version of Return of the Jedi that I watched growing up was an edited for TV version of the movie that we taped from TV onto a blank VHS, which like just trims a lot of the, I think, unnecessary bits from that movie. It makes it a lot tighter.

And that version is my favorite movie. When I watch the theatrical cut of Return of the Jedi, there's weird stuff that wasn't in the like edited down version that I saw. And I was like, what the hell is this? Yeah, I get why people think it's kind of not the best. But was there anything else about your relationship with Star Wars before I start to wax poetic about it? No, I just, my favorite, I love Babu Frick. I didn't see the last Jedi when it came out in theaters. I might have seen episode seven, but we definitely saw episode nine together.

And we were we were fricking it up. That's my full history. Incredible. For my Star Wars fandom, I mean, you have history. I've got history. This is a fandom that I do not talk about as much as some of my other fandoms, such as Paddington or Titian. Titanic, for example. But I am a long time Star Wars head, especially this original trilogy.

I am not a completionist when it comes to all the Star Wars content out there. There are a bunch of series that I haven't watched. I mean, at some point, it just, like, it gets to be too much. Yeah. Yeah. So there are many fans who know a lot more like Star Wars lore than me, but I've seen this original trilogy dozens of times probably starting around like age nine or ten this specific movie I've watched many many times I love the world I also love Andor I have an Andor tattoo I also love

Babu Frick oh now we're talking excited to see him in the Mandalorian movie that's about to come out I can't wait we were just talking about because we were just talking about Carrie Fisher on Avery an episode of Daily Zekegeist icons. Yeah, I haven't seen them. Although I remember you texting me saying that the Babu-Frickians were in Mandalorian season three, right? That wasn't me because I did not watch the show that far. Oh, okay.

Someone must have told me. Either way. But yeah, he's back, baby. He's on the poster and everything. I can't wait. Oh, yeah. I'm very excited. So, yeah, like because that movie's coming out, it felt also like a good time.

to talk about this movie specifically because the lore of the Mandalrians, like Boba Fett is like one of those people. The first Star Wars movie that he appears in is this one. I think, like, I know he's not in a no hope, but there's like also random like there's a Christmas special that everyone forgets about. But anyway, like. I mean, people talk about the Christmas special.

Isn't Boba Fett like a meaningful part of that? I barely remember it. I just remember you meet Chubacca's whole family and they look so fucking freaky. But it honestly is worth a watch. We should watch it some Christmas together. We should cover it. We should cover it. Yes.

Yes. But yeah, I love Empire Strikes Back. And yet Return of the Jedi is still my favorite. favorite. And I will probably insist that we cover that for another birthday episode of mine, maybe even next year. We'll see. Oh, my God. Wow. Okay. But, uh, yeah, shall we take a quick break and then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Experience Harry Styles live in London, England at Wembley Stadium.

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So first I'll start with a very brief recap of episode four, just in case anyone needs a refresher. The evil galactic empire has built this huge planet-destroying. Death Star Space Station thing. We meet Princess Leia. She's a member of the Rebel Alliance that are rebelling against the Empire. She puts blueprints for the Death Star into R2D2. And then he and C3PO escape to the planet of Tatooine, where they end up in the possession of Luke Skywalker, who links up with a Jedi Knight named Obi-1 Canobi. Together they find a hologram message from Princess Leia about these Death Star plans. So they set off to deliver R2D2 and the plans to the secret base of the Rebel Alliance.

They do so in the Millennium Falcon, a ship piloted by space smugglers, Hans Solo, and Chubaca. You've seen it at the Lego store. Yes, it's a little known ship called the Millennium Falcon. And then as they're flying around in this ship, they get pulled into the tractor beam of the Death Star, where they find and rescue Princess Leia, who had been captured by Darth Vader, the big bad boy. Yeah. And if you don't know who Darth Vader is, we can't help you. Sorry. We cannot help you, yes.

Yeah. He and Obi-1 Canobi have a lightsaber battle. Obi-1 is killed. The others escape in the Millennium Falcon. again and they make it to the rebel base where the death star plans are analyzed they discover a weakness and after this big space battle luke skywalker blows up the death star the end and now and that leads us right into episode five empire strikes back with a very satisfying little time jump that i appreciate it yes we skip over some stuff and we're caught up to speed in the famous

Star Wars opening scroll, of course. I believe it's been a couple of years since the first. I was seeing three years after the destruction of the Death Star, is what I was saying. Which actually, I didn't remember in preparing for this and actually did kind of help address some of the story questions I had where you're just like, well, it's been three years. You know, there's a lot of shit that's gone on. It's been 84 years, minus 81 years. At this point, it's like, you know, Leah and Hahn, it's like, it's like a work crush, you know?

Like, it's not love at first sight. They've been, they've been colleagues for years. Right. And we don't know exactly how much time they've spent together in those three years. Yes, I was not totally clear on that. But we learn in the opening scroll that imperial troops are hunting members of the rebel alliance across the galaxy, a group of rebel fighters, including our friends Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, Chubaca, C3PO, R2D2, and others have established a secret base on the ice planet of Hoth. Meanwhile, Darth Fader is obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker and has sent out like probes to look for him.

question mark like we i i have to believe we're not meant to truly know um the i did like um i remember when i rewatched it last summer being like oh this is a fun little fashion moment in the empire strikes back that because it starts on hath like everyone kind of has this like little l l b thing going on where they're wearing parkas there's and there's at least for haun and luke there's a big like I took my hood off and here I am and I'm still sexy and awesome moment. That is so like we come to this place. I really, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the derobing.

Sure, sure. Yeah. I meant to do this earlier during my like history and relationship with Star Wars, but I have a little show and tell moment if you'll indulge me. Oh, please. I have a bunch of Star Wars memorabilia that I've collected over the years. Uh-huh. And so first.

It's great for a podcast that we've. refuse to pivot to video on. Yes, this is an audio medium. However, I will describe these things. And then people will be like, wow. Thank you. We're going to conjure an image. My tools are words. Okay, so this thing is a canister of hawth chocolate. Hoth cocoa. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Hoth cocoa. I also have a boba fete. This is a coin bank. What is it about? what is it about Boba Fett that is so appealing to people? I like have never quite understood it because I was so surprised on the rewatch of being like, oh, this is the movie we meet Boba Fett in.

And he's so like random to me. I just like I don't understand why people have, but people have like an absolutely like fervent connection to this character. I never really understood it either. He does appear on screen a little bit more in Return of the Jedi, but cumulatively. His moments on screen in Empire are maybe one minute of screen time. He's barely there. They don't even call him by name either.

Darth Vader just keeps calling him Bounty Hunter. He's a guy doing cool stuff, but there's a lot of guys doing cool stuff in Star Wars. And I don't think the prequels really help retcon that, honestly, because you're like, oh, Boba Fett has a difficult relationship with his father. What's fucking new in this franchise? So true. God. Yes.

Okay. A few more items, and some of them are very specific to this movie. This is a little book called I Just As Soon Kiss a Wookie. Oh my God. And other Star Wars quotes. This is a book called the Star Wars cookbook. Wookie cookies. Wookie cookies, yes.

Okay. I mean, I guess it was just sitting there. Precisely. This is a book called How to Speak Wookie. And then there's buttons on it. I wonder if the batteries are still alive. No, they sure. aren't. I pressed a button and nothing happened. Okay. Last thing I'll share is we simply can't forget my

ladies of Star Wars deck of cards. Yes. Yes. I honestly do sometimes because my my recall on the original trilogy, unfortunately my recall is best on the prequels. Because and again, you should go back and listen to our prequels episode because I'm very proud. We did a lot of work to prep for that. We sure did. But this one, this one for me at least is going to be a little looser because I did not have weeks to prepare and or tickets on the line. Yeah. But I kind of forgot if this was the the one with Java or not. It is not the one with Java and I think that works to its advantage quite a bit. I would say so, although I love the sequence at Jabba's Palace. So I, I, I, I, I, I know. Okay, this is like, well, this is related, but not related to Empire Strikes Back.

But I was so shocked because I'm so out of the loop with this franchise that I know that, like, fans knew about Jeremy Allen Jabba for probably months and years. But I was so when I was watching the trailer for the Mandalorian and Grogu and they were like Jeremy Allen White. And I was like, where? I must have missed him. Wait, I don't know about this. Of what do you speak? Look up Jeremy Allen White. Star Wars. He's playing like Jabba's son, nephew? I forget where it is. He's Jeremy Allen Jabba. You're like, what? Well, if you recall, I made a big deal about Jabba's small son who appears in... Is that Jeremy Allen Jabba?

Let me see. I also was like, I guess I don't understand what point in his career, Jeremy Allen. Why does that? This is a confusing career marker where you're like, you can be in Star Wars. we're not going to look at you. Yeah. Well, it's like when Daniel Craig plays a stormtrooper who's on screen for like three seconds in one of the sequels. Yeah. But you wouldn't know that it was him because he's in a stormtrooper outfit. But he was already very famous by that point.

But Jeremy Allen Joppa is like second build. He's like a big part of. Yeah, he plays Rhoda the hut, Roda the hut. I'm not sure how to pronounce it. But yeah, he's... I'm calling him in Jeremy Allen Jaba. That, that, I just was, I don't know why that was so shocking to me. I just don't think of him as Jeremy Allen Jaba.

I mean, he contains multitudes. I guess so. Anyway. Anyways, can't wait for Babu Frick. I will be seeing Jeremy Allen Jaba in theaters. Same. Do you want to go together? Oh my gosh.

If you'll have me. I will. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, back to Empire Strikes Back.

We cut to Hoth, the ice planet. Luke is riding around on his taunton creature when the abominable snowman attacks and captures him. This is so iconic where you were just like, I didn't know that he could get to wherever this is. It is like right up there with monsters incorporated with places you don't expect to see the abominable snowman appear. No, he's around. Yeah, he gets around. He gets around, including a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And so he captures Luke Skywalker.

Meanwhile, on the rebel base, Han Solo is getting ready to leave to pay off his debt to Jabba the hut, father of Jeremy Allen Jabba. Princess Leia gets wind that Han Solo is planning to leave. and she wants him to stay because he's a valuable asset to the rebellion and also maybe because she likes him question mark we'll talk about it we'll talk about it but whatever feelings they have for each other they are unwilling to admit it to each other and also it's mostly han solo being a complete dick yeah Han realizes that Luke is missing. So he goes out looking for him, cut to Luke in an ice cave,

the Abominable Snowman's Ice Cave, where he uses his Jedi powers that he's been working on to summon his lightsaber and kill the abominable snowman. But the Abominable Snowman made an incredible recovery at least by 2001. In Monsters Inc.

To meet Mike Wozowski, yeah. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. of course. Luke escapes into the blizzard. He's freezing to death. He starts Jedi hallucinating and sees a vision of Obi-1 Canobi who tells him to go to the Dagabas system and find Master Yoda so that Luke can complete his Jedi training. It's part of the reason that Jedi shit is so fun and has to be so useful as a writer because it is just having a plot hallucination. A plot. A plot. Plot-based hallucination. Whenever it's convenient, Obi-1 Canobie's ghost, like force ghost will just show up and

either deliver some exposition or move the plot forward. And you really don't need, it's not that you don't need to. It's that you're not allowed to ask questions because the very concept of faith is on the line. It's a very high-stakes plot device they have there. Yeah, yeah, and good for them. Yeah. So then Hans Solo finds and rescues Luke.

they return to the base where Han continues to be a dick. So Leah kisses Luke to perhaps make Han Solo jealous. Which is one of cinema's most flaccid kisses. Also, fully, we don't know in this movie, but fully incestual. Also, she kisses her brother, but she doesn't know that their brother and sister yet. So it's actually kind of cool and fun and flirty. Right, right, right, right. Okay, so one of Darth Vader's probe droids shows up on the planet Hoth,

meaning the empire knows that the rebel base is there, so the rebels start evacuating, but the empire launches an attack. There's a big fight scene with Luke and the other rebel pilots battling the empire and their at-ats, which is also not, they are not named. in this movie. I don't know how anyone figured out what they're called, but they're those like giant four-legged things. I love. Okay, this is the way that I think about it, unfortunately, but because I have too many pets. But okay, they're called what? I think it's pronounced at-ats or maybe they're called AT-A-T's, but it stands for like all-terrain something, something. So to me, they look like and always have looked

like if my Cocker Spaniel Sonny fans will know if he got the surgery that Pedro Pascal gets in materialists that's what To extend his legs I was like that's what it would look like if

Sonny got the surgery he would look like there's I think they're so funny I don't see them referred to comedically enough they're too big they're just too big they're too tall their legs are so clumsy tall and skinny and you're just like the design flaws are abound truly to the like it's so easy for the rebel pilots

to destroy them they're they're called all terrain armored transports i've got notes but also like it's so fun i mean i'm sure that this happens in actual terrifying you know military industrial complex machines where you're just where it's just so unbelievably monstrously inefficient i mean one of my favorite things to watch is videos of like robots that there's like a presentation of them someone's like unveiling this super high tech AI robot or whatever kind of robot thing and then it immediately trips and falls and like breaks apart yes it is so it hits so hard seeing a Boston robotics thing eat shit uh it feels so good to see it's awesome my favorite one is it like goes well I don't even have it goes viral I also feel old

saying goes viral now I don't know if people say that anymore But there's that one of, I think it's a Tesla robot trying to like serve a drink and then it just like passes out. It's it's real fun. Yeah. Yeah. I love those videos. Yeah. Okay. Fuck them.

Fuck them. Yeah. The problem with Star Wars is while it is cool conceptually, you know, robots aren't going to like help us or anything. Yeah. Well, it's always the empire that uses them. That's true. I mean, well, droids, I guess, are robots. But I think that droids are actually robots.

Yeah, they are. Look, it's complicated. It's complicated. It is. It is. Yeah. But anyway, this battle is happening. The rebellion is losing.

And then Darth Vader shows up at the rebel base, just as Han Leia Chui and C3PO managed to escape in the Millennium Falcon. but Star Destroyers and other Imperial ships are chasing and shooting at the Millennium Falcon, which is damaged and can't get to light speed. So they end up in this asteroid field that they have to maneuver through. They enter a cavern on one of the bigger asteroids to hide while Han and Chewy repair the ship. But wait, there's something weird about this. asteroid or this cave, but they don't know what's going on yet.

Meanwhile, Luke and R2D2 head to the Degabah system. They kind of crash land into this like spooky bog and they're trying to figure out where they are, where this Yoda character is. I was I was going to say kind of a bit of a swamp. Like a like a like kind of somewhere where like a like a like a like a like a shrunk. Reclose? Kind of like somebody could start playing it any time. Kind of that.

Wow. That kind of vibe. And you know, this is a swamp where a green outcast lives. That, and it's interesting. And someone should write their thesis paper on why green oust cast, you know, sort of trend towards these settings. I have, okay, I have a letterboxed list that I've, been working on. It's called something like movies where a character who is green has been cast out by society and lives alone somewhere. Grinch. Oh my God. Grinch. Shrek. Yeah. Wicked.

Wicked. Wow. Four. That's that's official. Yeah. And Yoda. That, wow. What's going on? What's going on here? And in a way, because there's like the little, I've been, well, whatever, it's minion season, Caitlin and I, well, you don't have to tell me twice. Below, we're going to, I cannot wait for the new minions movie, but that's a separate, like little yellow cartoon characters are another whole thing too, because you've got SpongeBob, you've got minions, you've got, like, the list goes on and on. You're just like, what is it? What does it mean? Someone give me answers. Let's continue to explore this, shall we? Yes.

But anyway, Yoda is Shrek. But they don't know that yet, Luke and R2D2. And they come upon... Unlike Shrek, Yoda, to be fair, Yoda is like open to others being at his swamp. But it really depends. He's kind of like if Shrek and Donkey were one character. Yes. Yeah.

Wow. Huge for Yoda. Well, a compliment. Yeah, right, right? Because like donkey, Yoda is annoying. He's really annoying and always like, but but also, you know, wants company so badly. It's true. So Luke is looking for Yoda, but he doesn't know what Yoda looks like or who he is. And he comes upon this weird green little Muppety guy. Boy, is it a Muppet? It's literally Frank Oz. It's Miss Piggie.

Yes, yes. And he's super annoying. So Luke is like, what the fuck, dude? Leave me alone. I'm trying to find Yoda. And this little guy is like, I am Yoda. And you are too impatient, too angry and too old to be a Jedi, you crusty bitch. So here's maybe a controversial thought.

Yeah. And it comes with many layers and does tie into our previous, prequels research. Yoda, like, what a wild swing the character Yoda is conceptually versus how hugely, like society embraced Yoda as a character. I think with this in mind, things make a little bit more sense into like the jar jar of it all. Now, I look at how weird and annoying Yoda is in Empire Strikes Back.

and sort of understand why George Lucas, who is like not known for really thinking things, thinking how things might be perceived through, might have thought that Jar Jar was really going to work. We talk about in the prequel, all of the reasons that that may not be the case. But there's precedent for it. Yeah, I feel like people who talk about Jar Jar Jar like an annoying, character coming out of nowhere in Star Wars is a completely out of nowhere thing. But it's like there is precedent.

And there's precedent of it working. Yeah. But yeah. Shrug. Who knows? Anyway, Yoda is reluctant to teach Luke. But Luke is like, no, teach me, please. Teach me, daddy.

Luke always wants a daddy. That's kind of his whole. He's obsessed with having a daddy. I mean, to be fair. They keep dying. True. So he thinks. Back on the Millennium Falcon, they're working on the ship.

They're still trying to repair it. Han Solo continues to be an ass. But Leah, quote unquote, likes it. And they kiss on the lips. And again, we'll talk about it. But then they go outside because some creatures are lurking around. and there's, again, something really weird about this cave, except it's not a cave.

It's a giant space worm that they have to fly out of slash narrowly escape from. Fun. It's fun. This is a great part, yeah. I love worm. So then we see Darth Vader having a little chat with the emperor about Luke Skywalker, how the force is strong with him and how if they can turn him to the dark side he could become a powerful ally and Darth Vader says he will join us or die and I think one of the things that

the Empire Strikes Back has going for it is like not too heavy on the emperor you really have to have a careful balance of emperor in your Star Wars movie I feel too much emperor is annoying and or boring. A little bit of empire is fun. I agree. And I think there is too much of the emperor in Return of the Jedi. And also in the prequels and sequels.

Except in that amazing fight with Samuel L. Jackson. That's the right amount of emperor. Oh, my gosh. Yes. There's fun emperor and there's not fun emperor. I like that he's there for a scene. And then we just move on. We move on.

Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about the dark side and they're trying to get Luke to come over to it. Back on Dagaba, Yoda has agreed to start training Luke, and so they're doing that. Luke asks about the dark side. Then he goes into this cave where he faces his fears

that he will be tempted by the dark side and become someone like Darth Vader. So now we have this like looming thing over Luke. And it's also freshman year philosophy seminar, what's going on in this cave. It's like it's good shit. It's fun. Yeah.

Meanwhile, Darth Vader hires a bunch of bounty hunters, including Boba Fett, to find the Millennium Falcon. And apparently a lot of people were like, hubba, hubba, who's that? And I'm just like, he looks like a fucking, anyone else in Star Wars, I don't get it. There is a certain, like, sci-fi fan braid

that I just like I need it really spoon fed to be because I don't understand. I don't necessarily get this one either. I understand that he's like cool, I guess and his costume's cool, but why people glommed on to him so much. I don't know. I don't quite know. If you did or know why, sound off. I'm genuinely curious why this character of all characters. For sure. Okay, so Luke keeps working on his Jedi training, which is. mostly just like floating rocks around. He does try to Jedi lift his ship out of the swamp.

Luke literally kind of like has a little grad school side quest. Yeah. Yeah, he's like he's doing a workshop. Yeah, like many like many grad school courses, you're like so what is the function of this? I'm sure it'll become clear eventually. And it does. Yes, it does. Anyway, Luke, he can't lift something as heavy as a spaceship out of a swamp, but Yoda does it with relative ease.

And Luke is like, oh, shit, I'm a freaking idiot. I still have so much to learn. This Muppets awesome. Yeah. And then Luke, with his force powers, sees a vision of the future, which is Han and Leah in danger. Yeah. So Luke wants to go help them. but Yoda and Obi-1's force ghost try to discourage him saying it's a trap and he needs to finish his training

and he's being tempted by the dark side, blah, blah, blah. They're like, don't quit grad school. And he's like, don't worry, I'm just going to take a sabbatical. Yeah, he's like, it's just one session. I'll be back. I'll finish my degree. I swear. I swear.

So Luke leaves and Obi-1 says to Yoda, He's like, oh, that boy is our last hope. And then Yoda is like, no, there's another. And we're like, oh my gosh, who is it? Meanwhile, Leah and Han and Chewy and C3PO arrive in Cloud City where we meet Landau Calrissian. He is an old pal of Hans and also a scoundrel like Han. like Han, so not someone they can really trust. And there's definitely something suspicious going on.

It turns out that Lando sold them out to Darth Vader. So our friends are imprisoned and tortured. C3PO is torn to pieces. Han Solo is frozen in carbonite and turned over to Boba Fett. And this is where we have the famous scene of Leah saying, I love you, and Han says, I know. And we're rolling our eyes. And then...

All right. A lot of people were irreparably harmed by that line of dialogue. Including me as a child. So I'm not above that. The line that... No, no, it's not being above. It's just... It's the line that inspired a million emotionally volatile relationships.

Yes. Sad but true. Yeah. And then Luke shows up to Cloud City. and there's a big confrontation between him and Darth Vader. They're lightsaber battling. Vader is like, join me on the dark side.

It's really cool over here. Meanwhile, Lando double-crosses Darth Vader to then help his friends after all. So Lando, Leah, Chui, C3PO, they're running around. They're trying to save Han, but they're too late. And then they have to make an escape from Cloud 6. because it's being taken over by stormtroopers and everything. We cut back to the lightsaber battle. Darth Vader chops off Luke's hand and then reveals to Luke,

I am your father. And we're like, there it is, a movie about fathers and sons. Yeah, and then it becomes nine movies about fathers and sons. Try as it may to occasionally become other things. That is sort of where we keep going back.

Ultimately, a movie about fathers and sons. Ultimately, I mean, the sequels, right, are ultimately kind of more about Adam Driver and Han Solo than they are about Ray and the people they can't decide if they're her. Like, they can't decide who Ray's parents are. So it's not about her and her parents. They're like, um, it's the emperor, whatever. I mean, and I'm not the first and only person to make this observation, but the sequel trilogy really suffers for. to men having a narrative dick measuring contest with each other because it's Ryan Johnson and J.J. Abrams being like, no, it's my thing. No, it's my thing. Which is like, you know, annoying and

ridiculous, but it's also like you would think that there would be a system in place that would like decide who was going to do what in advance. It is still so shocking to me. And I don't care about the continuity of Star Wars so I'm not like super worried about it but it is shocking to me every time I hear how those things played out where it was like so your plan was to spend like a billion dollars of these movies and you didn't want to decide in advance who was going to do what and when and if they agreed with each other about a single thing like that is kind of like it's almost awesome how how like ridiculous it is I guess. You could see it as encouraging that the huge corporation of Disney who...

They let Ryan Johnson do his thing, but like... Right, they're giving creative control to the filmmakers, but at what cost. Right, but then they can't decide if they, like, regret doing that or not. I don't know. Yeah. There's been so much discussion over the sequels, but what does seem interesting to me, after just like rewatching this and watching the pre-reaching. and, you know, not having quite as firm a grip on the sequels, but it's like it is sort of

different versions of the same cultural biases that become an issue every single time with this franchise. They never, they're always promising, they're about to course correct and they just kind of, it seems like outside of like ancillary series like and or out of like non-feature entries to the franchise, they never really quite managed to do it. Yeah, definitely. sigh. Okay, so Darth Vader has just told Luke that he is Luke's father

and Luke is like, oh my God, what? Obi-Wan Kenobi told me that you murdered my father. That bitch is a liar. Yep. It's funny, in Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan's Force Ghost appears again

and Luke confronts him about lying to him. And Obi-Wan's explanation is like, well, if you just like really interpret it very weirdly, actually what I told you was true. So it was just shut up. I'm just saying stuff. Whatever. Yeah.

Okay. So Vader wants Luke to join him so that they can rule the galaxy as father and son. And Luke is like, pass. Yeah. And he like drops into the abyss. and ends up like dangling from an antenna or something in Cloud City. And he's like, uh, somebody help me. Leah, help.

And Leah, who is flying away with the others in the Millennium Falcon, here's Luke's call because maybe the force is strung with her also. So they turn around and rescue Luke and they're trying to get away, but the falcons hyperdrive is still fucked up so they can't get to light speed and luke is having a force conversation with vader about joining the dark side he's literally having a job interview on like over the zoom force force zoom yeah exactly then our 2d2 fixes the hyper drive and they escape and then make arrangements to go rescue han solo from job of the hut on tatween which will happen in the next movie.

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on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. Well, Caitlin, I. I mean, birthday privileges. Where would you like to begin this discussion? Oh my gosh. Well, I feel like it makes sense to start as we often do with some context. I did some research on Lee Brackett.

And if you're wondering, huh, who's that? Well, I didn't know. Let us tell you. I didn't know before researching for this episode. It was a delightful little journey. because Luke sorry George Lucas is simply so synonymous oh my god wait is that why his name is Luke yeah I just did like a Freudian slip it's like if I named my protagonist loft you're like you know loft my last name is loft has nothing to do with it loft skywalker it's like a CVS Luke

Skywalker. Wow, I never connected those dots, but maybe. Wow. Are we the first, with Star Wars, I never believe anyone's the first person to make an observation, but what if we were? Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that George Lucas is so synonymous with Star Wars and its conception that people tend to forget who else was involved in the making of these movies. Right. So of course, the first movie, episode four was written and directed by George Lucas, but Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kirchner, and the screenplay was written by Lawrence Kasden and, drum roll please,

a woman! Lee Brackett is her name. Which, would that ever happen again? No, you? I don't think so. Wow. Really good, guys. Great job, guys. And Lee Brackett, has a kind of fascinating life story. Do you, I mean, do you want to take it away? Because she,

she passes, unfortunately, before the movie comes out. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the research I did. If you have anything extra, please chime in. But Lee Brackett was one of the most prominent woman writers during the golden age of sci-fi. So like the 40s and 50s, I think primarily. She was known as the queen of space opera. She wrote a bunch of sci-fi novels and short stories throughout her career. She also has numerous screenwriting credits, including The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye, and...

Wild! Right? Like crossing genres, too. Mm-hmm. Totally. And she worked on an early draft of Empire Strikes Back. So what happened here is that Lucas approached her. George Lucas reached out to her, right? Yeah. Yes, he approached her.

Because it was like George Lucas was a big enough sci-fi fan that I'm sure that he was aware of her. Totally. Yeah. And what I read was something to the effect of he didn't like love building out the world of Star Wars and like figuring out all the lore. So he's like, let me find a sci-fi writer who's been doing. this for decades. Who loves the war. Yeah.

So he approaches Lee Brackett. And in late 1977, they come together and basically like put the pieces of this story together for the sequel to Star Wars. So cool. George Lucas had some core ideas in mind, but he wanted Lee Brackett to kind of form them together into a cohesive story. So she went off, she wrote a draft and turned it into George Lucas. However, she was sick with cancer.

And by the time he like kind of came back to her with notes on her draft, she was hospitalized and she died a few weeks later. Very young tissues in her 60s. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, this was, I mean, speaking of just like how. Especially when you get past a certain point in history, but this is 1980. It's pretty ridiculous how infrequently women writers are acknowledged or remembered because, I mean, and this is not a dig at Lawrence Caston whose work I really love, but like everyone knows

who Lawrence Caston is. And part of this is that apparently there's this kind of phenomenon where people generally acted like nothing from Lee Brackett's draft appeared in the final film. And so people just kind of weren't really talking about her and her contributions to the story. Which is especially, that makes me frustrated on the George Lucas side of things, particularly because they know she's like not around to advocate for herself. Yeah, totally. So it is just like kind of a full erasure.

For sure. And for many years, her draft. of the screenplay was available to read, but it was only available to read at a library in New Mexico and only there. Okay. So it was hard to get your hands on. Yeah. Until 2016 when it was published. And so I would be interested in reading it. I have not read that draft of the script. But for those who have read it, the consensus seems to be that many of the basic story beats between Lee Brackett's draft and the final film are more or less the same. There are a few differences such as the love triangle between Luke, Leia, and Hahn is far

more prominent in her draft. In her draft, Luke has a secret sister named Nelleth. Oh, I remember learning this in my Women of Star Wars research last year. Nelleth, the character who would never be. Nice try. right oh you wanted to write another woman in the movie well too bad well you're going to have to wait another 20 years and don't worry we're going to write her out immediately yeah we won't give her parents we'll never figure out who her parents are um another difference was in lee bracket's draft luke's father

and darts fader are separate characters and then there's some other kind of minor differences here and there. I mean, yeah, that's, that's a, to be fair. No offense to our friend Lee, that's a pretty big change. If that's a Lawrence Castin idea, that's, Darth Vader being the father, kind of crucial. Fair, yes, for sure. But I think people were sort of acting like her entire draft was scrapped.

Right. And they basically started from scratch. But like Lawrence Castan was building on her work. Precisely. And so, and I'm paraphrasing a piece from the Den of Geek website. But in her draft, there is a battle on Hoth. The flying through the asteroid field sequence is there, as is the city in the clouds, various unexpected betrayals, the climactic duel between Luke and Darth Vader.

So, like, so much of her... I mean, that's massive. Yeah. So was she, I mean, and I did not watch the credits when I was doing my rewatch. Is she credited by name in the original movie or is it just Lawrence Casten? She is credited. She is. Okay.

That's good. Because I think that there's like, in general, a like still to this day cultural misunderstanding of like how writing for TV and film works where it's. Well, I feel like there's a cultural misunderstanding. because it is unclear in many cases, and you've talked about this on the show before, where like your name will be on an episode that you didn't actually write that version of the script or you did write a script and then you are not credited because X, Y, Z reason. So there's like all these.

So it's like the crediting system is very weird because the crediting, to some extent, is just done to justify how money is distributed between writers, which is very confusing as well. like the WGA crediting conventions are really confusing. But like even all that aside, like you're saying, the fact that one writer is credited disproportionately kind of undercuts the whole point of like how it works, which is like that they're, even if they're not working together at the exact same time,

which they weren't, they're still collaborating. And that it ends up being kind of this genderless dick measuring contest. that mysteriously writers who are not cis men tend to lose almost always as evidenced by what we both said which is that we were not aware that a woman named lee bracket wrote a draft of this movie i've been watching this movie for over three decades oh was this your first time hearing of her i didn't know if it was like i wow yeah that's ridiculous i mean that and that it took until 2016 for or, you know, that to become even knowledge that we could have because it's like truly without, and this is like where fan communities are can be amazing. It's like without people willing to go to the library in New Mexico. It's like people's, her contributions could have been downplayed for decades to come.

Yeah. Yeah. So her contributions to the film are undeniable, but her work is often completely, overlooked because people are just like, yeah, George Lucas and Lawrence Kasden, duh. And it is at that point, I think particularly on George Lucas to emphasize her contributions. And I think that that failure to do so is something that we're allowed to be pissed off at NFL. For sure. Yeah. So shout out to Lee Brackett. RIP, our friend Lee Brackett. Yes.

So with that in mind, let's talk about the movie, although there's a little bit more of, I think, behind the scene stuff regarding Leah slash Carrie Fisher that will kind of dovetail into perhaps a discussion about Princess Leia. Yes. Maybe I should have said that during my Star Wars. My biggest connection to Star Wars is I love Carrie Fisher. Yes. More so than anything else. Yeah, no, she was so awesome. Gifted writer.

R. AP to her as well. Just amazing. God, I want to live in a world where Carrie Fisher was allowed a crack at any Star Wars script. I know. Like a proper crack at it. Right, because listeners may or may not know that Carrie Fisher was a highly sought-after script doctor for a while, and she would be hired to fix or polish or punch up scripts. But that was after she was in the original Star Wars trilogy.

Right. Okay. So Carrie Fisher was pretty open about, like, saying that she was having a hard time connecting to her character, Leah. Yeah. She found her to be pretty one-dimensional. She joked that basically the only thing she knew about Leah was that she likes to wear white clothes. You're like, hey, so that's actually not a character. That's not.

And we know from the diaries that Carrie Fisher kept at the time of filming these movies, that she was envious of Harrison Ford because he was allowed to rewrite dialogue for Han Solo, often on the fly. So that he would never have to actually learn how to act. And that's my, I'm not a, I'm not a Harrison Ford fan. I think he's obviously like undeniably, he's got Riz, all that stuff. But it's like, well, yeah, because he can't do anything else. So of course he's going to need the dialogue.

He doesn't have range. No. That is for sure. But many movie stars don't. But yeah. Yeah. So a prime example of this is during the scene where Leah says, I love you. And Harrison Ford improvised the I know response.

So he was doing that from time to time on set, just kind of rewriting his lines and doing whatever he felt like. However, director Irvin Kirshner would not allow Carrie Fisher to do something similar. But what she did do was just kind of make a bunch of notes for herself for the laya character in an attempt to kind of provide some extra characterization and context that this script doesn't. The script didn't do. Yeah. This was discovered when her copy of Empire Strikes Back was like put up for auction. She's so amazing. I believe after her death.

Yes, I saw this as well. And a lot of her notes for herself was something along the lines of men are so disappointing. Mm-hmm. And so. That is something that, it is so, I don't know, it's so cool watching actors. it's just like every time you see and this isn't I mean this movie is a great movie but every time you see an amazing performance

in a movie that you're like how the hell did you manage to do a great performance in this like otherwise kind of boring movie it's because of stuff like that it's so cool that like she had to create a character where a character didn't exist because she cared yeah it's awesome dude I love it I know I know

if only any of the actors did that in the prequel trilogy. Well, let's not blame the actors in the prequel trilogy. We know who the problem was. Yes, yes. But like, I think Ewan McGregor, Ewan Marrera, in the prequel trilogy is a great example of someone giving an amazing performance in like pretty boring movies.

I agree. Yeah, I was thinking of Samuel L. Jackson, who is one of the most. prolific actors of our time and he gives the flattest dullest performance imaginable but i'm not blaming that on him because iconic director george lucas sucks of directing and doesn't like people or actors or apparently you just told me writing so so so you're an editor man he's a he's a special effects guy He's a special effects whiz And that's why he made the Star Wars movies

Yeah Which is all good But it is funny to learn like Oh and he also hated writing I was like okay He hated actors And writing And directing

Okay And directing Cool Yeah Anyway so Carrie Fisher Through her performance Helps to give Princess Leia

More characterization than she otherwise had and I think it's a huge reason why I always connected to the Princess Leia character. I always admired her. I think it's one of the reasons I like this trilogy so much. She's doing so much with so little. She's amazing. Yes. However, she still is the only woman in the galaxy. Yeah, it's, I mean, and I have to be willing to criticize my faves too. It's kind of like Minions 5. It's every setting in the original Star Wars trilogy has minions rules, has full-on smurf rules. Yes.

There's only one woman and we're not allowed to ask where the others went. It's still just her. But I mean, in that there's, well, it's interesting because I'm curious what you think. I think that Leah, I also feel this way about episode four, but I think more so about that this movie. She is a very active character. She is a character with a lot of power and a lot of agency. And while she is not always the person making the most active decision in from scene to scene, she is always a part of the action. It's something I really appreciate about hers. I think that sometimes, especially kind of older Star Wars fans will use that very true fact as a

a way to dismiss some of the more stereotypical aspects of Leah to be like, I mean, I encountered this today and I was like, okay, where they're like, it doesn't matter if she's the only woman because she welded in that scene, you know, like, you're just like, okay, we've got, we've got to be able to hold a couple things at once here because I love that she welded. Yeah. We celebrate that she welded. What was she doing? We don't know.

And no one could tell us. But like, yeah, she's always actively involved. But to be fair, when, like, Han and Chewy are welding the ship, I also don't have any fucking clue what they're doing. Well, that's, that's what I mean. It's like she's doing space science. I just think it's funny that, like, the sort of tokenism around gender that exists in this trilogy, I think for big fans, they're sometimes like, you can't say it's not feminist.

She welded. I was like, yeah, but has she met another woman before? Has she met another woman? Like, she's a part of a love triangle because women are the romantic interests. Sloppiest love triangles ever written. Yeah. But, yeah, like, I rewatched episode four as well, just to see if there were any significant differences between how she's framed in the first movie versus this sequel. And I think the main difference is that in the.

episode four, she, I wouldn't even say primarily, but she is like the princess who has to be rescued. Yeah. And they kind of drop the more princessy elements of her in this, I thought. I don't know. I agree. No, I totally agree. And even though she has to be rescued, I would almost argue that in that movie, she isn't necessarily damseled the way other damsels in distress. will be treated because she's taken as a political prisoner rather than like a woman love interest being captured to raise the stakes for the male protagonist. And she's taken as a political prisoner because she's suspected of rebel activity, which she was doing because she was putting the plans to the death star into R2D2.

So unlike most other women who become damsels in a movie, she was actually doing something to impact the direction of the plot. And then as soon as she's released from captivity, she jumps right back into the action, which also we tend not to see in a typical damsel situation. So I think from the jump, she has been written as a character who is a very significant part of the narrative, the action,

the beats that move the story forward. And it's also that she's always, It's also that she's always been a like revolutionary general, which also remains to be true. I mean, I think throughout the rest of her time in the series, like in the sequels as well. Yeah. And so, you know, we could talk about the girl boss optics of becoming a military general, sure. But, you know, I think for the military for the resistance. For the revolution.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I just, I don't know. I appreciated that, you know, two things are true here. And I think also to build on, because we covered episode four, we should recover it. Because we covered it one of the, I remember I was late because I was working at Playboy. And it was 10 years ago when we first did that episode. It's our first episode that appears in our feed.

Yeah. So. For now. For now. But yeah, I mean, I feel like she, you know, I love that she's a revolutionary. I love that she, you know, I think. think maybe 10 years ago it was like well we don't want any love stories and now i think you know the show has grown to be like no it's not that it's that it really depends on what the love story is and like

so let's talk about that yes let's talk about it okay so hon is in love with lea but he cannot be vulnerable enough to directly communicate that to her yeah presumably because he he's afraid of rejection. So in episode four, Han has a conversation with Luke about how like, oh, would a princess ever get with a scrappy guy like me? So he's afraid of a class-based rejection, it seems. But instead of, you know, being vulnerable and communicative about his feelings, he negs her, he projects onto her.

There are all these scenes toward the beginning where he's like, you want me to stay because of the way you feel about me. Yeah, he's like fully handsome and awesome. It's the, it's the Bishemi test vibe of just like he and, and what's interesting, and I don't think we could have talked about this when we talked about a new hope because I don't think it was out yet. We now know, we just talked about this on Zikeyes the other day, that Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford had an affair with a significant age gap.

She was a teenager and he was in his early 30s on the set of a new hope, not this movie, but that, again, just like speaking to how aggressively Han Solo mirrored who Harrison Ford was, a lot of the issues Leah is having with Han in this movie are issues that Carrie Fisher was having. in like trying to have this relationship with Harrison Ford, of like being emotionally inaccessible, of being dismissive, of, you know, doing all these things that I think men are socialized to be permitted to do and women are socialized to tolerate.

For sure. So we have Han Solo not treating Leia well because of his insecurities of being rejected by someone he loves. Now with Leah, it's telegraphed to us that she has feelings for him as well, but also doesn't want to admit it. Perhaps also for a class-based reason, like a social status thing where she might think he's beneath her or something. Or maybe because he's kind of an asshole. He's being a dick. It's like when you're really attracted to someone who's an asshole and you're like maybe best to just keep this.

as a crush. Yes. And to Leah's credit, she is always pushing back against him when he's being a dick. She's calling him delusional. She calls him a stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerfherder. An iconic line.

But she, it is very like, we're never meant to fully believe that. And I think that the reason we're not supposed to fully believe that is because of how you're socially conditioned, long before you're sitting in the theater. Right. And so it's like one of those tricky things where I think there was like an era of media

criticism where it would be like Star Wars did this. And it's like, well, no, Star Wars didn't do this, but Star Wars reflected this to a very young audience. Yeah, Star Wars didn't invent this. No. But it did perpetuate it. Yeah. And in a way that like, I mean, you only need to visit a forum or two to understand that some

people really took this mentality quite seriously. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So then there's the kiss scene. Yeah. This is when Leah is welding, aka doing the most feminist thing ever.

Women be welding. Oh my God. It is, do you remember when, I think we talked about this forever ago, what Julia Roberts movie is it? Where we were like, oh,

the rom-com trope where like, we know that she's, she's going to get the guy at the end if she like fixes a car at some point. Oh yeah. It's like the mechanic trope to be like I'm I'm a girl that's more doing more traditionally masculine things therefore I'm not like other girls. I'm cool. Yes it happens in a lot of movies actually I don't think this is when Leia is welding she's just doing some other repair work on the Millennium Falcon anyway not important yeah she's fully evolved at every step of the action Yes. Yes. Han comes in as she's like doing this repair work. He starts immediately invading her personal space, trying to either like take over what she's doing or help. She shoves him off. He starts condescending to her, calling her a nickname that she doesn't like. He's touching her hands intimately. She's telling him to stop that. He keeps inching his face closer and closer to hers. He has also backed her into a corner. So,

she cannot like get away. It is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario. I mean, truly it is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario that exists. But like just in terms of being textbook murky consent, the whole premise relies on it being Harrison Ford in a movie. Yes, exactly. Like he's charismatic and rugged. So obviously anyone's going to want to kiss him is the idea.

So he's, he's, he's. close to her. They exchange a few more words and then he interrupts her with a kiss. Their kiss is interrupted when C3PO comes in and then as Han is talking to him, Leah sneaks away. As far as the kiss itself, it's also murky because it's like, okay, I wouldn't classify it as a surprise kiss because she also goes in for the kiss, but only because she is written in such a way that she's like relenting to him basically. And the scene feels quite coercive. Yes.

He has treated her badly up until this point and continues to like neg her after this. And also I think that it is like a tricky like even if we are to believe that the character like that, you know, I do think that like obviously Carrie Fisher is like giving a performance where it's like, oh, she's attracted to Han. But to be clear, which. I mean, we know we're fully appreciating the choir here, but that like being attracted to someone does not entitle them to do anything to you physically. Yes, of course.

So like, again, it's just like it's a lot of murky logic that this movie is like assuming we're all on board with. Totally. Because you can read it as either like he wears her down until. Which is like also doesn't feel like quite it either. Like there's just this like. I don't know how to describe exactly what's going on because it's... Because it could be like, actually, she secretly likes it when he mistreats her and negs her in many scenes. Yeah.

We don't know exactly what it is, but it's not good. And it's a lot of like, again, it's like, it's a lot of tropes that like it's, that this is just one of the most famous examples of. It reminds me of our conversation around like when we redid our Twilight episode not too long ago. of the idea of like fantasy fulfillment and yeah but but how murky a conversation that becomes like where if like you if this scene affected you in a way that like you're like oh that's such a hot scene like that that's not an irrational reaction based on how people are socialized you know it's just right well because like I mean it's it's complicated by the fact that there is this like there is a trope that like, well, women want to be ravaged by a masculine, either man or beast.

Right. That's a pervasive trope throughout literature. But then some women do kind of want that. Right. Well, yeah, it's right. It's just like presenting it that like, whatever, like not everyone wants that and some people do want that. but this story beat tends to prove i mean it's like kind of just like fabio on the cover of a paperback novel thing they're doing here i mean that's literally what the like the movie poster looks like

with the two of them for sure he's like kind of looming above her she's like if i'm remembering it correctly like she's got her head kind of thrown back talked back it yeah i mean it evokes a lot of romance novel stuff. And so it's hard to know what to do with because I think that for for me it's like it's mainly how young like the general audience for these movies were. Yeah. In a way that I think we've seen in the way that like the fandom has sort of played out over the decades that there are some positive takeaways right where it's like Leia is a like very powerful outspoken woman who is always a member. of the action who is still subject to these romantic tropes.

Exactly. Yeah. And like, let me know what you think about this, but in various scenes, when we're seeing her making strategic decisions about what the rebel alliance should do, she's giving orders to people, parentheses men, because it's just a bunch of men, they respect her authority, they don't question her choices. So it almost seems like, even though there is a dearth of women in the galaxy, or at least in the Rebel Alliance and the empire, there doesn't really seem to be like systemic space sexism against her. No, which feels very much like borrowed from like Star Trek,

where, you know, we are also to believe that there isn't space racism. Right. But also, that doesn't stop Star Wars from being subject to all of the race-associated tropes that existed in the U.S. in 1980. Yes. And we'll talk about Landau-Karrizian. We sure will. But, yeah, there aren't these like systemic, like these systems of oppression and bias, really. It's just like individual men being shitty to Leah, such as Hans Oloving, Land-Ocar-Rizian.

Well, that's what makes it kind of. like, again, like this bizarreo cultural artifact where, you know, we're being told we're in a world where women can easily be, you know, unquestionably in power and powerful. But how can we hold that being true with Leah still being treated like a woman might have been treated in 1980 in the U.S.? Like, you know, it's just, again, it's like it's not a problem specific to this movie. your franchise but you know you certainly do feel the reverberations of this kiss and this relationship dynamic the i love you i know which is like you know i got to hand it to whichever writer wrote it it's a snappy fuck or i guess harrison ford harrison ford improv did on set it's a snappy line

of dialogue and it like tells you who this character is but yeah i i don't know i mean it is obviously like a very particular melodramatic dynamic that in a movie that I think is pushing back on gender archetypes with Leah in some ways it really doesn't

romantically or with this love triangle that becomes increasingly incoherent as they're changing their mind between movies which I guess is what Star Wars has always done. Yeah it really represents a relationship model

that so many men thought they should follow, so many women thought they had to follow for like for what a burgeoning romance was supposed to look like and again I fell for it in my youth. And it does feel like well, wherever we won't we don't need to get into it too much today, but how every feminist movement comes with a period of backlash, some of which is over it, some of which is like a little more subtle.

And I think that like at every step of feminist representation in media, because Leah is to many an iconic feminist character, that for many of these characters, especially in like bigger projects, it's like they can have power to a point or in certain arenas, but in other arenas, they have to remain submissive and okay with blah, blah, blah, blah. But then that, you know, that is a little bit in conflict with the fantasy fulfillment. Like, it's just, it's, it's, we're not Luke. We're not at Jedi grad school. But like, but it is, it is really interesting because I think that we're having a very different conversation about this now than we would have when this show started. It's true. It's true.

Well, growth. Growth. We love to see it. Well, happy birthday to me. And speaking of age. You already mentioned this, but the Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher age gap, because I believe she was, was it 19 and he was in his early 30s. Yes, she was an adult, but she was still quite young. Yeah, not, so not illegal, but not good.

And so, yeah, he is pretty significantly older than her. And married also. Oh, right. Oh, my God. Yeah. I forgot about that. for the sake of their relationship in this movie, it's a classic case of, you know, a Hollywood age difference where the woman is far younger because society hates older women. And once again,

happy 40th birthday to me. Which, like, which luckily Carrie Fisher had no shortage of things to say about when she was younger and when she was older. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it is, it is like so unquestioningly like to the point where like I had to I had to have it pointed out to me when I was first watching Star Wars where you're like yeah he's visibly so much older than her and I was like yeah I guess I'm just used to seeing that right but yes I don't do you have any other thoughts on Leah and this I mean the other thoughts I have on her are generally quite complimentary like I I just I I love I this is my favorite movie for her mm-hmm um just a few things such as In this movie, she's never damseled, but she is instrumental in saving Luke at the end, which normally we don't see that. Her costuming does not sexualize her, which... Or objectify her. I mean, that's a different conversation in Return of the Jedi, but in this movie... I was also thinking about Padmay, who I've spent a lot of time thinking about we both have.

and how, you know, not, it, again, I'm not saying this to be like super complimentary, but it was, it is interesting to observe how the state of the Western feminist movement is reflected throughout whatever, over like basically half a century through these movies. Because somehow in 2000, we're in a worse position than we were in 1980, which was also just culturally true. where between the second and third movies in this and the original trilogy and the sequel, the original trilogy, we decide that while and Return of the Jedi, we have the whole Java thing, but we decide that Leah is more powerful than we could have possibly conceived of. She is a Jedi, and she has access to the force, whereas in the prequels, Padmey gets an unbelievable character downgrade between

movies two and three. She is more a part of the action than she'll ever be in part two, which isn't saying that much. And then in part three, she's just weeping in a room the whole time. She's pregnant. She's going to be dead soon. Yeah. It's just like it's, it's, she's really left in the trenches. So it is, yeah, I do appreciate that Leah is being set up for a rocky third movie, but a movie in which she will continue to be, I don't know, I haven't, I didn't watch Return of the Jedi before this. I know she has sidelined for a significant part of the third movie. So maybe it's just tradition. Right. I also didn't rewatch it for this, so it's not super fresh in my mind. But again, we'll just cover it my next birthday. But yeah, I love Leah. And even though I understand why

at least during the filming of this movie Carrie Fisher was kind of lukewarm on her get it? Luke warm? I wonder if I've made that joke before. I feel certain you have. I understand why she's a beloved character and I love her.

And that so much of that has to do with Carrie Fisher. Yes. I also love Leah and I think this is like of the three movies, kind of like the best showcase of what's great about her character. Shall we talk about Lando Calrusian? Let's talk about our friend Lando. I don't have a whole awful lot to say, but similar to how Leia is the only woman in the galaxy, Lando is the only black person in the galaxy, at least with lines of dialogue.

That we, yeah, which is, and again, this is another. they're like, I think Star Wars fan cope with all due respect if there's members of the community listening that people are like, well, James Earl Jones is a black actor. You're like, uh, well, come on. Yeah, but we never, you don't see him. And when you do see him, he's a white guy. He's a white guy. And he's canonically Hayden Christensen. So that actually does not deflect like, well, well, James Earl Jones, you know, is the most iconic cast member, arguably in the entire franchise. Like, we can't be making that sort of argument. Right.

I have a little bit to say about Lando, who plays like, Billy T. Williams is just like so amazing. Yeah, I was looking for a little background in how he is characterized, and there was a fair amount written about Lando as a character when Solo came out. And then I think that conversation promptly stopped because no one saw that movie. movie. Speak for yourself. I saw it in theaters twice for some reason. There were dozens of you. But Donald Glover plays Young Lando Calarizian in that prequel movie. And so anyways, there was like a brief period of time in 2018 where black culture writers were reflecting on the legacy of Lando. So this is pulling from a slash film article from 2018 by Monique Jones.

pimping in space, the black exploitation roots of Lando Calrissian, in which she kind of traces, she mentions something that George Lucas is always, he's like, Star Wars isn't racist. And I'm like, okay, if you have to say it, maybe you need, because Star Wars famously, I mean, and again, like if we're thinking about Star Wars on a longer timeline, this is something that the franchise makes steps towards, but never actually. meaningfully improves on because you think about how John Boyega was rightfully speaking out during the sequel trilogy about how severely scaled back his character was and how he was erased from promotional materials in certain countries that were extremely racist against black people.

So same thing with the- Jar Jar Binks of it all and all of the racist tropes present in Jar. I was also going to say the Rose character played by Kelly Marie Tran. Yes. She was the recipient of so much. racist vitriol. Yeah. When her character was introduced.

And then she was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker. Yeah. This is historically, I mean, this happens in movies quite a bit with actors of color that are initially cast in large roles. This is certainly the case consistently in main Star Wars franchises. Yeah. Without fail. I mean, the fact that Samuel L. Jackson turned in a mid-performance.

You're like, something's going on here. Something's not right. But with Lando, who is the first significant black character in the Star Wars franchise ever, yeah, Monique Jones talks about the cultural ideas around blackness that are being pulled from to create this character. So something I wasn't sure about, but is true, is that Lando Calarizian was always envisioned as a black character and was also always envisioned as Billy D. Williams specifically. I guess George Lucas was a fan. So, like, in his original notes, he was like,

Billy D. Williams. So this part was kind of written for him. But it's pulling on a series of tropes, and specifically the Black exploitation movies of the 70s. So, quote, Lando further defines the mainstream image of blackness as being one synonymous with coolness and slickness. But with that image comes negative associations of blackness, being shifty, dangerous, and untrustworthy.

It's unclear if Lucas was directly inspired by Blacksploitation, but Blacksploitation's pervasiveness certainly informs Landau's character, from the cape to his roguish personality. There's a reason that many fans refer to Landau as a pimp in space. In Just Looks alone, Landau fits in with the sweet, sweetbacks, Dolomites, and Superflies who preceded him. The iconography of the pimp is one of the lasting controversial effects of Blacksploitation popularity. The image is emblazoned in our minds, a charismatic black man with perm straight hair, a flashy hat, an equally flashy clothes.

Our fur or cape of some kind was always in the mix. Lando, too, has relaxed hair, a saunter, an expensive-looking blue cape lined with luxurious gold fabric complete with a gold neck chain. Looking at Lando from a black exploitation perspective, the character continues in the tradition of updating the trickster persona via the pimp. Even though Lando is in a galaxy in which racism doesn't exist, his costume, and his cape in particular calls back to the movie pimps of the recent past of the time. Showing the audience, he has the mystique that the other white characters can't quite replicate or understand.

His clothes exemplify his ability to work outside the system that is still, despite it being in a galaxy far, far away, set and run by white people. In this way as well, Lando's character harkens back to black exploitation. His individual acts of resistance, such as tricking Han and working with Darth Vader with the goal of securing Cloud Cities protection, are, quote, conceived in confusion and executed in panic. He doesn't stop to think how his double crossing would have come back to cross him. All he knows are the ways of the swindler, despite his role as a government leader. His trickster ways are tied to his blackness, and whether or not Lucas realized this, he still gave his critics ammunition against him, despite his inclusion of a black character. So it's a very interesting piece. She also later goes on to review how Landau's character

is addressed in solo, which isn't relevant here. But we haven't really talked about the black exploitation genre in any deep way here. And I wanted to just acknowledge that that was a very, very thoroughly discussed. And people who have so many minds about it genre that was sort of at its height in the 70s and that you can see its influence on Lando Calarizian. But what every analysis, of Lando. Like it always ends, including this piece, ends with, that said, I love Lando Calrissian

and he's really cool. And Billy D. Williams is awesome. And Lando rocks. And I think that both of these things are true. That like, you know, yeah. And what is also true is, and this is part of the, you know, like smooth talker, like, black exploitation inspired characterization of him. you might call him a smooth talker or you might say that he's being a creep toward Leah because he's

always being like, ooh, hubba, hapah, look what we have here. And I think in that way, he's being a creep in the same way Han is a creep. This is true. Like, they're just both creepy guys who found each other like many creepy guys too. And that said, I do love Landau Calrusian. So it's complicated. I really think everyone loves, I mean, I don't know. I was not in my admittedly kind of like not deep research,

but I was not able to find any Landau-Calrissian haters. Yeah, I don't. Which is all Billy D. Williams. I mean, like, Billy D. Williams is so awesome. Yeah, for sure. So anyways, yeah, I do think that there are, even though George Lucas has resisted any racial analysis of this character, obviously it is there. It has been discussed quite a bit. And again, there's like the. classic Star Wars tokenism to this character that also exists for Leah,

where in the entire galaxy there is one black person and one woman, and she, of course, is white. And for many classic films, this was the way the world worked. I do appreciate with Lando, it's like, it's impossible to, I think, impossible to dislike him by the end of the movie. I do appreciate that we are given context for why he's doing what he's doing. He's not double crossing Han and Leah because that's just who he is. It's not out of like spite or malice. Yeah. No. It's it's a survival based decision. Does it I there are many implications that come with that.

But I did appreciate that like you are given a clear reason not just why he does it, but why he is later forgiven. Right. Because the first. chance he gets, he double-crosses Darth Vader and tries to help his friends. So, and then appears again in Return of the Jedi as one of the crew. I mean, well, speaking to that, speaking to like a choice of survival, something that we didn't talk about, I don't think on our first Star Wars, like our New Hope episode, but the fact that this is like... I don't even know if I was there.

I have no idea. Yeah. I also think that might have been one of the episodes where you kind of didn't watch the movie. Yeah, I didn't think podcasting was going to be a job. I just thought we were chilling. Having fun. Yeah. But the anti-imperial nature of this whole franchise, I think it's best handled in Andor.

It's very, very simplified, I think, in the original trilogy where it's just sort of like Empire Bad, Rebel Alliance, good guys. Well, and it's like the first trilogy is really clearly pulling on World War II. I mean, it's like the, you know, in a way that I feel like, I don't know, I'm not trying to hand it to George Lucas with the subtlety of his storytelling. But some of like the visuals are so overt that it feels like you don't, that they're like sort of electing you to fill in the blanks on your own based on your knowledge of what would have then been like pretty recent history. But I don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you look at like side by side footage from this original. trilogy and footage from Nazi Germany.

The parallels are visible. But this is why I like and or so much because it examines in a far more nuanced way what a fascist empire looks like and what it does, what a revolution against that looks like, how a resistance movement ignites,

and the complicated figures who are participating in it along the way. Yeah. So, everyone should watch Andor but then it's like to do that watch it illegally because Disney Plus is the worst. That's the thing is now like you have to make well you don't have to also

you don't have to. You don't have to make anti-fascist content for the fascist but like you know there are there are many like for a certain budget people are forced to put themselves or to force to choose to be in that position. Yeah. It's a whole thing. Anyways

Andor's good. Andor's great. The last thing I wanted to touch on was just a little bit about the Jedi. Ooh. Are we talking religion? Like ideology. Okay. And we talked a bit about this in our prequels episode as well. But I want to talk a little bit more about the kind of like philosophy and ideology of the Jedi. There is a video essay from pop culture detective agency, which we might have cited this specific essay,

before. But it's about how even though the Jedi in these movies are portrayed as these like wise heroic protectors of the galaxy, they actually represent a rather toxic version of masculinity because a huge part of their ethos is suppressing your feelings, emotional vulnerability equals weakness. And because most Jedi knights are men, especially in the first two trilogies, we can see the parallels between Jedi ideology and patriarchal conditioning in our galaxy, in our world. Yeah.

It gets more into the Jedi lore, I guess, in the prequel trilogy. Because the reason Anakin is seduced by the dark side. is because he makes the mistake of having feelings and of having deep connections with women, both his mother and his beloved Padme. And that's what inevitably leads him to the dark side, which you could read as commentary on, like, look what horrible things happen when men are discouraged

from freely feeling their emotions. But the prequels do not frame it that way, really. No, the prequels, the prequel is kind of, I think if we're operating in, and I think that that is actually a good reason people don't, like, because there are some reasons people don't like the prequels that are annoying, and some that are valid, which is that like this whole spiritual encouragement to connect with one's emotions to have a clear perspective of the world and to meditate and all these things that are, you know, demonstrably good is retconned to be this like, weirdo. It's just like over-explainy and kind of undercuts what makes it so interesting in the first place and what makes it possible for viewers to kind of

take on for themselves in a positive way. Right, because going back to the specific movie we're discussing today, I think that one of the things that distinguishes Luke Skywalker from his father, Anakin slash Darth Vader,

is that Luke kind of rejects this part of Jedi ideology. And we see this in a scene where Luke sees that like future vision of Han and Leah being in danger, possibly about to die. And he wants to go save them. And Yoda and Obi-1's ghost, which are his Jedi trainers, are like, no, who cares about your friends? You have to stay here and finish your Jedi training. And Luke is like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to. to sacrifice my loved ones. Which, to be fair, I guess, knowing the events of the prequels helps that moment hit a little

harder where you realize that, like, Yoda and Obi-Wan are kind of, like, beating the same drum until Luke proves them otherwise. Sure, yeah. I guess. But it's, it's all over the place. It's all over the place. I do like that, and that, like, multiple things end up being true where, like, Luke does is right to go and rescue his friends.

And also it was a trap. Like they weren't totally wrong. They weren't wrong. But Luke is like, well, since I know it to trap, I can maybe work around that. Leah still has to tell him. That's true. But isn't that the way?

I mean, she's always the most discerning character in the room. She's always the voice of reason. She is. And the franchise eventually recognizes that. It just takes a while. Yeah. But I guess what I'm saying is one of the things I like about this movie is that at least Luke is permitted to be more emotionally vulnerable.

He's more expressive with his emotions, certainly, than Hans Solo is. He cares deeply about his. friends and he's not afraid to show it. I love Luke. We need more men like that. I love Luke so much. I feel like we really often, not that Luke's guywaker is an overlooked character, obviously he isn't, but that in favor of Han in terms of like what makes a character interesting

and attractive, I do think he is kind of overlooked sometimes. No, totally. Because his qualities are objectively, I guess, and whatever. speaking for myself here, but like more attractive than what Han is doing. But the movie is very didactic in telling you who deserves romantic attention and what behaviors should be quote unquote rewarded. And that's a whole other thing with romantic attention and what shouldn't be. And like Luke, while we clearly, we love Luke.

He is, you know, he is our protagonist. He is notably the recipient of less romantic attention than Han. Yeah, Leia only kisses him. him to make Han jealous. And then they make that weird and gross in retrospect. Yeah, because they're like their sister and brother, actually. And I'm not saying that, like, Luke should have a romantic interest. Like, that's not one of saying at all.

I just think it's pointed who, you know, has the, because in this world and in this time, and still often now, the romantic interest of a cis woman is treated as a plot reward. And Han is clearly the recipient of that plot reward in this, in this franchise. Totally. Yeah, I have come all the way around on this where as a kid, as a teenager, into my 20s, maybe even into my early 30s, I was like, Luke Skywalker, whiny and annoying, Han Solo, cool and hot and rugged. And now I'm like, Han Solo.

a dick who needs to go to therapy Luke Skywalker soft gentle kind sweetie and sweet and again I look if you're someone in the business of dating straight men you'll encounter your fair share

like no no shade if you're still like I like unfortunately Han Negging is hot to me like you you live in a society and it's your right I'm just saying that Luke is Mr. Sweetie and I recognize that. And also it seems like Mark Hamill was Mr. Sweetie and is possibly Mr. Sweetie to this day. Do you remember when we went to that event at a now defunct comedy space UCB Sunset and he was there? No.

Where were we? It was something that Liz Winstead was doing. It was a comedy show. I think it was a fundraiser. that was promoting access to abortion. I do remember going to that. I don't remember that Mark Hamill was there. Mark Hamill was there.

I think like doing random illustrations or something. He's like, I mean, from what I know, and I'm not a, but it seems like, you know, I'm sure they're a little lib, but like it seems like he's a genuinely like sweet and thoughtful person. I think so. And no, he was there. I'm wondering if I can like dig up pictures from this event but um yeah he was there and I was like freaking out I was like oh my god that's Luke Skywalker this is incredible and you were sitting

next to me being like I feel nothing I guess that's why I don't remember because I felt nothing it was just another day for me yeah yeah fair but no yeah he's Mr. Sweetie he seems like a sweetie and yeah I don't know I mean I think that's everything I had for this I mean I I mean, it's tricky because when you're talking about one Star Wars movie, you're kind of talking about all of them. So I'm sure that there's things we missed. Listeners, if there is anything in particular that you feel we should have discussed and didn't, please let us know. But, yeah, I mean, there's so much to love about this movie. I understand why it's a lot of people's favorites.

I will point out that this is the, and I'm not totally sure why this is, but this is the only Star Wars movie of the original trilogy that was not, I believe, edited by a woman, Marsha Griffin, who would have been Marshall Lucas at the time, who I remember because of her iconic quote about how she, long after her divorce, saw Star Wars Episode 1 and went to her car and cried after her and was like, what happened to my ex-husband? What a flop. Why did he make such a bad movie? Yeah. But she did edit episode 4 and 6, so I'm not sure why she didn't edit this one.

But she needed a break. Maybe. I mean, we just, we haven't talked about the original trilogy in so long that I just wanted to shout her out. She also, I mean, she was like very much in this group where she also edited American graffiti and other, but a bunch of Scorsesee movies. Taxi driver in New York, New York. Alice doesn't live here anymore. Like, she's a legend. A legend.

Anything else you want to talk about? No, I can't wait to see Babu Frick. Oh my gosh. We're going to see. And look. I'm not above thinking Grogu is cute. I look, there's sometimes I look at my cat Casper and I'm like, hmm, grogu vibes. And I see it.

Look, we're, sometimes you just have to remember, we're living in difficult times and you have to be cringe every once in a while. And it's a sign of, you know, whatever is a sign of. Happy birthday, Caitlin. Does this movie pass the back to the time? Absolutely not. No. Not even close. There's not another woman.

There is, I did see with mine own eyes. Oh, no. Not us starting to do the like, I saw a woman blurred. You're talking about it like how they talk about like the munchkins that are allegedly dead in the background of Wizard of Oz. And you're like, oh wait, we actually corrected. We actually updated it to 4K and it was a tree. It wasn't anything.

It wasn't a woman at all. Even so. Uh-huh. There's a woman. She's on Hoth. Okay. At the Rebel Base, she, I think, is in front of a computer. She maybe has a headset on.

That's so valid. So she's doing something. That's so valid. But Leah doesn't talk to her. In 2017, they would have made a four-part mini-series about her. But now there's no more TV and misogyny's back, and they probably wouldn't. Anyway, so yeah, that's a no on the Bechtoe test. But what about our nipple scale where we rate the most?

movie on a scale of zero to five nipples examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Hmm. Indeed. Well, again, we've talked about how Leah is an iconic and admirable character. Uh-huh. She is not immune to gendered tropes of the time. Mm-hmm. But she also defies a lot of gendered tropes of things.

the time in that she's allowed to actually participate in the story and the action. And that's that's not insignificant. The bar is in hell, but. But there is that. But I do love Leah. Yeah. And I love Carrie Fisher. I don't know.

I guess maybe like a nipple and a half. Yeah. Maybe two. I was going to give it to based on the existence and like delayed celebration of Lee Brackett. Fair. While Star Wars is very flawed, I think you're hard-pressed to find many movies of its era where there are women in roles that prominent, including in the editing booth, et cetera. Again, it's peanuts, but it was rare at the time, and I'll, I'll say two nipples for that. Same.

One goes to Carrie Fisher, one goes to Lee Brackett. I'm going to do the exact same thing. A secret third nipple goes to Babu-Frick. Babu Frick, guys, we're going to all start cheering at the theater when he comes out, right? Yeah. Right? You and I will. We're going to get him that side thing that they were supposed to do.

Do you remember how the voice of Babu Frick said that she wanted there to be a series about him, about his romantic exploits of the past? I did not know that, but I need it. I really, I really carry a torch for that, for that anecdote where she was like, if, she's like, there's a story here. This, this little guy has lived. Babu Frick, Fricks. It's right there. It's right there. And we're available for work when the Bobbu Frick series gets greenlit.

Caitlin, happy birthday. Thank you so much. Thank you for bringing one of the best Star Wars movies ever. Happy to do it. And I don't know if I will commit to covering Return of the Jedi next year for my birthday. But it's a strong possibility. But thank you for covering this with me today. Of course.

And thank you listeners as always. Sorry, my computer's going to die in like two minutes. So I'm racing to the finish. You can find us as always if you enjoyed this episode. But just the two of us, there's hundreds more over on our Patreon, aka M. where for $5 a month, you can access not just two new episodes a month on a topic often of our listeners' choice. You can also get access to about 200 back episodes. And it is the best way to directly support the show. And you also get access to like tour information before we announce

it to the general public, which will become relevant later this year for our 10 year anniversary tour. And access to a really fun community that we're very, very, thrilled to be a part of. So, yeah, check us out there and on Instagram for updates. And that's kind of it. That's kind of it. Um, shall we get in our Millennium Falcon and press the hyperdrive button and go to light speed? Whatever the hell that means? Let's do it. Okay. Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Laugh, And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen.

And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

With vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic. And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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