The Bechdel Cast - Starship Troopers with Jonathan Braylock

Episode Date: March 11, 2021

Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Jonathan Braylock examine Starship Troopers. Would you like to know more?(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @jonbraylock Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson.

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I'm Joe Gatto. I'm Steve Byrne. We are two cool moms. We certainly are. And guess where we could find us now? Oh, I don't know. The iHeart Podcast Network? That's right.

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2021 a podcast after 500 years releases its four millionth episode but the twist this time it's about the weirdest shit i've ever seen in my life would you like to know more um honestly based on that um no i'm good okay exactly exactly if only we had known welcome to the bechtel cast uh i'm jamie lavdas i'm caitlin durante and this is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Simply. Uh, Jamie, I would like to know more. What is the Bechdel test? Uh, the Bechdel test is a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. Would you like to know more? Yes, please. For our purposes, the Bechdel test requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about

something other than men. I honestly am not sure if it happens in this movie or not. So confused was I by the movie. Would you like to know more uh no i'm good for now okay good well jamie you're a natural at that yeah i'm a i'm a natural propagandist uh it's good to know which is good to know i okay wait uh this is this is gonna pass the bechdel test okay did you notice there there's a golden girl in Starship Troopers? I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me by this video essay that you sent me the link to, which I found very helpful. Thank you so much.

It was great. Yeah, I didn't notice because I think the makeup department makes her face look somewhat disfigured or something. And then she's also wearing these like goggly glasses yeah i i wasn't sure if we were supposed to think her character was blind i wasn't totally sure i think that that might have been the implication but i'm either way rue mcclanahan is in the damn movie at playing a mean science teacher who's like dissect this bug like i mean that in a good a woman in stem though a woman there's okay there's a lot of this this episode is like the case against women in

stem uh when it's used for fascism right so uh yeah this is the starship troopers episode of the bechtel cast and um listen bear with us because we were not expecting this movie. No, we weren't. I'm excited to discuss. So let's introduce our guest. Yay. He is an actor, a comedian. You know him from Astronomy Club on Netflix.

And as the co-host of the podcast black men can't jump in hollywood it's jonathan braylock hey welcome thank you so much for having me this is exciting thanks for being here thank you for bringing us this terrifying movie it was on your list so it seems like you guys it was yes it feels kind of random but we've gotten this request a bunch of times uh and now i i i now having seen it i understand why even less uh right i was gonna say why why have you gotten the request i wonder if it's i have a i guess i guess i have a couple of theories but i mean literally every movie ever, including dozens we've never heard of, we've gotten requests for. But this one came up enough that we like, we like added it to a list and everything.

So. Right. I, people who have requested this movie, I do demand an explanation. Jonathan, what's your history with uh with this movie well it's interesting because like i've said this on my podcast a bunch but like when i was growing up i wasn't really allowed to watch rated r movies uh for a while and so like anytime i saw one it was either like a tv version of it which is like down, but still kind of pretty graphic. Like Robocop comes to mind in that kind of sense. Same director.

Yeah, exactly. Like just hyper violent. But I was super into sci-fi. So I always wanted to watch this movie. And I think I wasn't allowed to when it had come out. But then I like, I don't know, at some point in high school, I was able to like watch it. And at some point in high school I was able to

like watch it and I was kind of like I was like what is I was like just kind of confused because it was because I wanted to watch like a you know just a regular sci-fi like star I thought like I was going to get into like some Star Wars kind of thing and this is this movie is very much not that um but it i don't know there's something there was something about it that always stuck with me about how like it felt like the movie was kind of like making fun of what the movie itself was to a degree but also but was still being that kind of movie and so i i don't know i just it's i wanted to re-watch it because i was like i wonder how that holds up like i wonder if it was saying more than i caught at the time or you know was it like being more subversive than wanted to examine it for me still inconclusive and like

you brought up star wars like this movie is like if star wars was told from the perspective of like the empire yeah just like a very uninquisitive Empire stormtrooper just being like, yeah, seems like they have a great idea. Right, right, exactly. Jamie, what's your history with it? Truly nothing. I'd seen other Paul Verhoeven movies, but by that I mean Basic Instinct and Show showgirls which were his two movies leading up to this so i'd never seen robocop i guess i don't really know this side of paul verhoeven sure and i didn't know it was a book until when i mentioned we were covering this they're like you have to

read the book which is the thing i hate to hear the most but I listened to the audio book and I watched the movie and both of them are so fucking fascist and bizarre to me. But that's my that's my entire history. It started on Monday. What about you, Caitlin? Incredible. I had like, I was like, I'm going to reread the book because I had read the book in a class I took in like a sci-fi literature class

I took in college it was like one of the required readings but I was a really bad student in that class and while I did like sort of read the books I also didn't entirely I would like read the first 50 pages because we had to read a book every week in that class and I was like I don't know who has the time so I would like read the first 50 pages and then usually like skim the rest and I think that's what I must have done for this book because I truly remembered nothing about it and then I also thought I had seen this movie but as I was watching it nothing about it was familiar. So I think I just had one of those like false memories of having seen it. So I also have a very limited history with it. I knew the part of the history behind it of like,

when it first came out, critics were like, this movie sucks. It's just a mess of like gratuitous graphic violence and uh weird themes and da da da da and then and then like kind of in retrospect a bunch of critics were like oh wait a minute actually this movie's freaking a brilliant awesome satire and if you don't notice that then your brain is bad there and just like i like i love that cycle of like people think it sucks then they're like actually and then they like galaxy brain they're like it's genius and then three years later

they're like no wait it does suck it wasn't very good we've come full circle right um i think that like the way there's the framing, I like, okay. The beginning. The beginning, like the propaganda framing. I feel like that is as close to that satirical framework. Those are the parts of the movie that I like the best, but then all the plot that happens between those seem to just be very unquestioning.

Yeah, it's very much just doing the story like when i when i was starting it again i was like i was like yeah it is wow look at this like this is really fun like the scenes where like the guy's like giving his gun to like children and the children like and like fighting over the gun and you're like it's like pushing it to the edge but then when we actually like get into i mean there are small things dropped here and there but for the most part the movie is just doing the the thing that the movies always do yeah and it was made in an era where people were literally making and consuming these movies at such a high degree that it's like how would anyone know that you were even if you said it

which i think he he explicitly said it like in interviews and stuff but it was like nobody knows or nobody like the general audience doesn't know or care they're like they've been watching movies like this all the time and robocop i don't it's funny because like i i don't know if he feels the same way about robocop but like robocop is also like extreme extremely like pro-police like very racist like very like I don't know it's it's what it like says what it says is terrible and if and if you're trying to say like no well this is a commentary it's tough yeah I find those arguments always a little tough Paul Verhoeven is, his quotes are like weird too. The context for this movie being made is like he, the screenwriter, he's working with the

same screenwriter that he did Robocop with, Ed Neumeier. Ed Neumeier loves the book Starship Troopers. Paul Verhoeven hates the book Starship Troopers. This makes so much sense. He literally says, I stopped after two chapters because it was so boring. It is really a bad book. I asked Ed Neumeier to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right wing book.

And he's right. But then like, why would he make this movie? It's so, so strange. Oh, gosh. Well, should we let's get into the recap and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it. Hi, listeners. Just a quick note about the recap.

The way our recording schedules worked out, we had to record the recap separately without our guest, Jonathan. So if you're wondering, hey, why isn't Jonathan saying anything during the recap? That's why. Okay, enjoy. Okay, so this movie is set in a distant future where the people of Earth are at war with an alien species known as bugs or arachnids aka definitely not communist definitely not and okay so in this world the only way to become a citizen of the federation the federation being this government that rules it's like planet earth and yeah it's literally like the military state right yeah um and the only way to become a citizen with voting rights and all that kind of stuff is to serve in the military aka the federal service

so the movie opens on a military propaganda commercial which we've already perfectly demonstrated you amazingly replicated would you like to know more? And this commercial is about how it's awesome to join the federal service. Then we cut to a battle scene where we see the reality of kind of the situation and this war, which is soldiers getting brutally killed by these aliens which again like those first few minutes of the movie with this like military propaganda commercial which glorifies war juxtaposed against these scenes of graphic violence that show the reality and the horror of war makes it seem like yeah looks like some interesting satire is emerging here. But then it just kind of stops and doesn't really go anywhere. Right.

Then we cut to one year earlier where we meet some high school students. Johnny Rico is our hero. He's played by Casper Van Dyne. I'm not really sure what his name is. Fun fact. He was married to an actress who was in The Vow because she joined that terrifying cult. Oh, whoa.

He's one degree removed from a terrifying cult. Wow. Casper. And that's all I have for Context Corner. No, I'm kidding. His girlfriend is Carmen Ibanez. That is Denise Richards. we also meet their classmate dizzy flores she's played by dina meyer who is obviously interested in johnny romantically

then we also meet carl aka neil patrick harris in like full doogie mode yes in this movie like you're there he's like what if doogie was a fascist and this this a question no one asked but this movie answers yes indeed um and they are all about to graduate and they're all considering joining the federal service uh they have a teacher mr roschek i also don't know how to say his name. Yeah. He is teaching them about how military violence is actually really good and cool and necessary. Hell yeah. Then we see a football game where Johnny and Dizzy are playing football and then also sometimes doing gymnastics.

I was like, what is that? That was one of the Paul Verhoeven little touches that I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? Yeah. The reason I bring the football game up is that this is where we meet a guy from the opposing football team, Xander. He becomes important later and he's trying to flirt with carmen and it's a whole thing he's exhausting i mean i everyone in this movie is exhausting but him especially right uh then the next day johnny carmen and carl all join the federal service carmen will train to be a pilot carl will be military intelligence uh because by the way he has psychic abilities he can talk which he shows us by being like i know what every card in the deck is and also i can talk to my ferret you're like huh okay i guess that's technically showing not telling sure yeah I guess that's Chekhov's ferret or something.

Perfect. And then Johnny will be infantry. Johnny begins boot camp with Sergeant Zim, who, of course, is best known as being one of the villains from Flubber. Yes. Okay. I was like, I wonder who is going to bring up Flubber first. Yeah. okay i was i was like i wonder who's gonna bring up flubber first um yeah i mean the parallels between um what is the name of this movie storm ship troop not storm troop troopers i'm gonna yeah i need to do a disclaimer where i'm gonna accidentally call this movie storm ship troopers because of storm troopers even though it's called starship troopers i mean this movie my first note for this

is literally like starship troopers is if there was a biopic made of a stormtrooper who never questioned the military and viewed the rebellion as literal cockroaches like they're yeah fascism um okay anyway so sergeant zim um dizzy shows up to boot camp she had requested to be transferred to this particular unit probably because of how in love she is with johnny rico gary bucey's son is also there which is once you know it's g Busey's son, you're like, whoa, that's really Gary Busey's son. I know. And he's playing the violin. That was another thing where just so much of this movie is so ridiculous as it washes over you that you're like, yeah, Gary Busey's son is here.

There was already a golden girl. I guess we just like jumped the shark immediately. Right. His son is here. There was already a golden girl. I guess we just like jumped the shark immediately. Right. His name is Ace. Boot camp is tough, but Johnny shows promise and eventually he is made squad leader. Meanwhile, we see Carmen learning to be a pilot. She crosses paths with Xander again. Then Carmen sends a message, a video message, breaking up with Johnny. And shortly after that, Johnny is relieved of squad leader duty after the death of a teammate, which was his fault. Yeah. So he quits the military and he's about to go back home. But just then war breaks out when bugs attack. They like throw a meteor at Earth. I don't know if it was supposed to be

funny when he's skyping his parents and they're like come home we love you oh no what's going on and then it goes boop boop i was like okay like there's so much of this movie that like was that supposed to be campy or is that just paul verhoeven trying to be serious. Well, that's the thing. Like, a lot of people will be like, this movie is brilliant satire and it's so hilarious. And then I'm over here being like, shrug? I'm like, I think that it definitely wants to be a brilliant satire. But, you know, kind of like, I'm not totally sure. I'm not convinced. Yeah.

Yeah. So because of the war that has just broken up, Johnny Rico is like, I'm going to join back up. So he and other troops are deployed, but the battle goes horribly wrong. They underestimate the bugs. Hundreds of thousands of troopers are killed in action. Johnny is badly wounded. And Carmen thinks that he's dead and she's all sad about it. So then the military has to reevaluate their battle plan. And the teacher,

Mr. Razchek, shows up and he's like, by the way, I'm a lieutenant. And we're like, okay. And then let's see, Johnny's injury gets fixed via sci-fi science that was kind of fun he's in like a a goop tank and then they're like okay you're good to go yeah uh then they go back into battle and have a few successful missions where they kill a lot of bugs uh raz check promotes johnny johnny and dizzy kiss and have sex and things really seem to be looking up. And guess who loves that they're having sex? Mr. Razchek for some reason. He's like, take an extra 10 minutes to have sex with each other. I'm like, you were my history teacher. Gross.

Right. So then they go out on another mission to Planet P and things go horribly wrong. And they start to figure out that there must be like a brain bug that is controlling the other bugs and making intelligent choices and setting traps and things like that. Oh, also, we should say, I mean, it goes without saying that because this is a sci-fi movie made by a man that the monsters are vaginal. Especially this brain bug, which we are about to see. I kind of was like back, I'm like, you know what? Evil brain pussy? Sure. You know?

Iconic? Hard to know. Yeah. So they learn about the brain bug and a bunch of soldiers are killed including rozchek and dizzy so then carmen and zander fly in to rescue them and carmen is like oh my god johnny i thought you were dead and he's like oh no surprise surprise and then neil patrick harris comes back dressed as a full nazi was not prepared no neil patrick harris to become a full nazi nor was i and he's like by the way you have to go back to planet p and kill the brain bug johnny rico who is now a

lieutenant i think yeah because he had to kill his his teacher yeah right um and johnny's like cool sounds good to me so then they go back in for one last battle meanwhile carmen and zander's starship has been like shot out of space, and then they crash land onto Planet P right into the nest of the brain bug. Convenience. And the brain bug definitely is the most vagina-ish vagina monster of any movie I've ever seen. Oh, God. Yeah.

Yeah. And it sucks out Xander's brain. vaginas do as vaginas do and it's about to do the same for carmen but then johnny and a couple other troopers show up and save her and then they capture the brain bug and then neil patrick harris uses his psychic abilities to learn that the bug is afraid and then everyone cheers because the bug is afraid they're like oh wow we are really gonna commit a lot of atrocities soon like right and that's basically the end of the movie so shockingly yeah let's take a quick break and then we will come right back Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017

was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. These are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson.

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app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast and we're back can i give a quick book recap please because i i just need to justify the time spent listening to the audiobook on 1.5. Okay. So the book and the movie are both fashy, but in kind of different ways. So I guess make of that what you will. In the book, there's a whole whitewashing discussion to be had about this movie, because in the book, most of the main characters are uh filipino um and i believe they live in canada not buenos aires even though buenos aires still does get bugged in the book i don't know but uh the but yeah it's um it's juan rico and his father emilio rico and so that's the the first

huge difference um and as well as like Carmen and Carl, they're all implied to be Filipino characters that live in the same community in Canada. There are class differences in the book, unlike in the movie where they still call him, they like Americanize his name to Johnny midway through the book. Once he's in the military, he's called Johnny.

At home, he was called Juan. But once he gets to bootcamp,'s called johnny at home he was called juan but once he gets to boot camp like he he grew up in a really rich family uh and carl and carmen grew up in a lower class family which which is implied why that's why they're joining the military so there's like more push and pull there there's like actual class stuff going on uh they did it a little bit like you knew that he was rich and there was that scene in the bat like the shout where they're all taking a shower together where they're like talking about why they why they joined and there is like a lot of people are like

joined because they didn't have money or they like were farmers or whatever so like it was there a little bit with him but definitely not carmen they didn't they didn't make it seem like carmen didn't have money in the movie yeah and it seems like carl was doing just fine because he's like in his like science dexter's lab basement or whatever right exactly he's got a pet ferret you know he's got like all the rich people do i'm sure but yes so there's that. But then, I mean, the book does in the middle, take a pretty hard right turn, where it just sort of starts through the teacher character, and the pursuit of happiness. There is only loyalty to the state. The most freedom you can get is a willingness to die for the state. And it just gets really hardcore. The only thing I think it really does better is the class stuff. And like, it's more of a coming of age story, even though it's like Juan Rico is coming of age into a fascist super soldier. He at least undergoes some sort of change, where I feel like in the movie, he's kind of just there.

He's hot and he's there. Yeah, he likes Carmen. He likes Carmen. Oh, yeah, Carmen is barely in the book. There's no love story in the book or anything like that wow that was like the whole thing for this movie though yeah i guess that that's worth saying is there's all of all of the sexism uh that appears in the movie is very of the movie it's not in the book at all i would say that that's one of the issues that the book

actually like doesn't really super fumble but it's it's implying that it's this fashion that it's this like militaristic utopia that's why i think what the author wants you to think like because he was in the military himself he is actively pushing children reading this book to go into the military so he's like the military isn't sexist the military isn't racist we're all fighting that against the bugs which is just communism so it's very 1950s like and was it is it written as like a dystopian world like is it written like in 1984 where it's like warning against this type of thing or do you does it it feels like it's very pro this it's full it's it's full utopia to the point where i was like reading of like it's very pro this it's full it's it's full utopia to the point

where i was like reading of like it's so fucking weird because you think that you i just didn't see that coming where like the more into fascism he gets the happier he becomes and he becomes fully self-actualized by the end in the book his dad doesn't die his dad gives up his richy rich business and joins the military with his son wow and at the end they're like we're so happy like who wrote this book this he's like i i i never a nazi like literally he's a former nazi wrote this book unfortunately he's a u.s veteran who uh really got into it it's really fucking weird like i it's and i guess even in its time people were like this is right wing like propaganda propaganda yeah because it it is but it was also one of the most like successful influential like sci-fi books of its time there were a lot of like posts and stuff i

found about like oh when i first read this it made me want to join the military because that's literally like what it is supposed you're it's supposed to make you want to just die for the state and view your enemy as just a lifeless evil husk right uh so it's a fucked up book uh and carmen and and dizzy the the name dizzy is brought up literally once in the first chapter she doesn't go to school with them she's not a character that exists in this world she's just one of his like squad friends who's killed at the beginning and so there's no love triangle none of that shit it's just truly all right-wing ideology um and a child's being radicalized so that's the book i read that the author robert a heinlein wrote this book in response to right um wrote this book in response to him being mad that the u.s was suspending nuclear testing

yes he's like no we should be blowing and shit up and you know having nuclear bombs dropping all over the place all the time he loves war the more casualties the better looking it up on wikipedia he's six generation german american look i'm not saying that all germans are nazis but this guy wrote a fascist sci-fi so i don't know i don't know sorry continue hey it's so yeah it's it's fun like the book is fucking scary because it like it it does start to pull you in of like wow it's a coming-of-age story and then in like a third of the way through it's like fuck you this is the scariest shit you'll ever read there is something interesting about because he's i think he this guy's right like this is very anti-communist but there's a similar way in the movie does this and i'm i'm guessing the book does something similar where they at some point where

they're talking about the bugs they're like kind of uh like idealizing them they're like oh there's like they're actually i don't know they they don't have fear they follow orders they do this they do that and like there is this way in which like fascists very right wing even though they're like against left wing they like i you know they they they actually like dream about like wow could you imagine having that much power where you know people would just conform to the state and do this and do that like for the good of and you're just like so you're the same thing yeah you're the thing that you think that you think you're fighting against like that's what you want to be like what it's it's such a mind fuck it like that does happen in the book as well and it like it's such a mind

fuck because when you're listening to it you're like this sounds like brainwashing this sounds really bad but the book is like and isn't this amazing that we've shaped this young man to think this way but it yeah it's like uh as he spends more time in boot camp and the boot camp thing is very different in the book i won't even get into it because it's like more fucked up and worse but uh they're just like slowly it's worse they're it's i yeah don't don't read the book but the the they they're just slowly sort of like encouraging him to and everyone to you know not view the bugs as individuals view them as this mass organized and just to encourage to like the soldiers to view them as beings that do not have

emotions and so you will feel less bad about murdering them like and in i feel like the movie and the book you find out really nothing about like the bugs what their goal is like absolutely what they're defending against just so you don't feel bad about watching johnny rico kill them even the like even though they have all this intelligence and like just you know weapons and this kind of things like that like when like every planet that they're on looks like completely lifeless they're like even though even when they go underground it's like what they're just like living in tunnels like the they're just kind of doing this thing of like yeah they just all they do is reproduce and spread and they and uh they're trying to kill us and that's

it like that's all they are just like this living organism that's all it's trying to do is like spread and destroy but again yeah there's a reflection to us that could happen here you know in that but the movie as subversive as people want this movie to be and like yes there there are certain things where they're clearly like poking fun the movie never actually goes there like it never actually goes there because you could do that but nobody had no none of these characters have any real realization that's happening at the end they're all you know victorious they're just cheering yeah look at how much of a hero we all are and it's encouraging the audience to fascist doogie is so scary um oh also that is a that's a that's a big change from the book

carl is uh not psychic and is not uh nazi doctor thing no there's no there's no psychic unfortunately carl dies about two seconds into the. Like they all enlist at the same time. Johnny enlists because he wants to prove that he's more than just a rich kid, which is like exhausting, but he doesn't enlist because of Carmen. And then Carl dies almost right away. And Carmen disappears until the very end of the book. Wow. Going back to the bug thing really quick there's like a very brief suggestion

in the movie that humans have been basically just colonizing all of the like outer reaches of this entire galaxy and then they came upon this like species of aliens and they didn't like to be colonized and then they fought back and now that that's sort of like what instigated this entire war where the humans are like genociding these aliens but it's just because of the humans being colonizers and like there's just like a sliver of that in the movie it's like you could do something with that but then they're like no we're not gonna do anything it's truly a sliver there's one person who's there's like a report like a nameless reporter who's like some would say that the humans are actually the ones that provoke the attack and they're like shut up kill the bugs and then and then you're like you're like like that's funny

but when you don't actually do any of that it's like, I don't know if you guys noticed this, but like there are times where like, especially now where like shows like pretend to be woke by like adding a line in. Like I remember reading this pilot where it was like it was a space kind of start, not Star Trek, but like something like that um and the captain of the of the ship becomes like this dude who's like not as smart and like they're like jokes made about how he's not as smart as like the woman he passes up or like the other people but it's like he still becomes the captain and i was like okay so you guys pretend you're being woke by like being like, yeah, like man, like how did you become captain? Usually women are captains. And I'm like, okay, but this show is going to be in our universe with a male, a white male lead. So what are we, so you're not actually doing the thing that you're commenting on.

Right. Assuming that by stating that it's like, we know. We're doing it again. We're going to do it anyway. We're going to do it anyway. Wink, wink. It reminds me of the last Avengers movie when there's that moment where all the women superheroes that they've only just introduced into the universe within the past like two years they're like wow look at them they're all walking together and just like

feminism right women standing next to each other as feminism yeah right yeah this this movie does because it's like i feel like at the end of the day if if the movie is at no point that I feel like the movie was having you question Johnny Rico's like motivations, question his journey or like root against him in any way. So it's like, well, then is it really saying anything if the whole journey is Johnny getting like really lost in the fascism sauce and we're just supposed to be like really rooting for him the whole time like you're never supposed to be rooting against him or the earthlings so if he had died right i wish he had died i wish he had died or there was like just some sort like yeah the movie to me feels completely void of like commentary and like yes there are these hints of satire with like the propaganda commercials that are being sprinkled throughout but it feels like what you're saying jonathan it feels like like the closest they get to be like isn't this

fucked up but then just doing the fucked up thing yeah i read that director paul verhoeven said that his intent with this movie because again everyone wants to you know lots of people are like but it's brilliant satire so paul verhoeven was like well my intent here was to seduce the audience into rooting for these fascist characters using the same military propaganda that like the third reich was using for propaganda and then also his intent was to challenge the audience to kind of consider okay why are we rooting for fascism that's an interesting idea i just don't think he pulls it off it's not executed well and i didn't see that intent until he explained it to me personally um so it's like then you're not if you're that's not effective

satire i think yeah the reason that it's not effective to me in the slightest is that one we don't first of all the reason that the book uses bugs as the enemy is because as human beings we do have like in an eight like kind of we're like we look at insects as like they're gross and we don't think like people even people who love animals you know will be quicker to kill a roach or an ant you know or a bee than they would and maybe not bees anymore just because now we know their environmental impact but but like but you know what i mean like we're quicker to kill insects than we are any other really any other kind of animal species so so we're watching this movie and we don't feel anything for the bugs like nobody you're you're not you're not thinking

at all like oh that bug had a family or what if that bug was just like uh what if that bug is a civilian that's just like trying to live its life like it's it's so hard to like get there and there are sci-fi books that actually kind of make you think that i mean ender's game is supposed to be that kind of book too i don't know if you guys have ever read ender's gamer not since high school i saw the movie though but that was a similar thing where they're like training these like child soldiers to like kill things and like the bugs are the enemy and then like at the end he realizes like he that this wasn't a trading mission that it was the actual thing and he's like wiped out in a whole planet of of bugs and he's like and the kid kind of feels like, wait a minute, what did I just do?

But it's also one of those things where it's even that, like, it doesn't go far enough because people who look at the Nazis who are bad, like, as bad guys, like, people who sympathize with, like, fascism will also, you know, use the Nazis as, like, some symbol of, like, yeah, those guys, like, Nazis are bad also you know use the nazis as like some symbol of like yeah those guys like nazis are bad you know but our brand of fascism is good you know which is what this movie is you know it's like yeah i don't know i guess i don't know how anyone who wasn't who didn't already know the things that he's like trying to point out. Is going to come to that realization themselves. Yeah. It's like Paul Verhoeven.

It just seems ill-equipped to do what he says he's trying to do. And he's also just chosen. Like if he wants to make an anti-fascist statement. Like this is not the book to adapt into a really expensive movie. Like it's a fascist book. Also using a screenwriter who likes the fascist book right if you uh yeah it's it's it's pretty wild um the other thing that's like yeah the other thing that's annoying is that i actually do think there was a chance in here to do something like like if you do have like these characters just like be like smiling over just

like the most horrendous stuff but like at the end of the day Rico gets to stay alive he gets to save the girl like he's failed upward so many times that he's now a lieutenant just through his history teacher he's like experiencing history teacher nepotism yeah his his history teacher who told him to come in is like is the other hero all the things that like the all the people who are against him like his parents who are against them joining the military they they get wiped out and then motivation for him to stay there you know the girl that he is friends with but he doesn't really like she winds up dying or her only purpose was for her to be with him that's her dying words or at least i got to be with you and then and then he gets and then the and then the guy who

stole his girl he dies too so like everything's a-okay for this dude. This dude is living the life. So how are we supposed to ever think that this movie is saying anything bad about this? I feel like it's especially like the Johnny Rico, like he's just. I can't believe his last name is Rico. It's ridiculous. But like in the movie, I found like Carl to be more frustrating than anyone else. He literally becomes, like, a Nazi psychic doctor.

And at the end, he gets, like, the, I was like, how did Carl not die or experience any sort of, like, like, you just see, like, these high school kids getting radicalized, and then the movie ends. Like, it's so like there's you're never supposed to be like was that good like were we supposed to feel good about that because it's just assumed that you want like you hate the bugs we know nothing about them they all look like vagina monsters like every sci-fi movie from this era like and that's and that's it i i don't know yeah i as

much as i appreciate the in-between segments of like would you like to know more but it's like literally i would paul verhoeven put that in the story um yeah there's one point that i kind of the one paul verhoeven quote that i was, that's kind of interesting because I don't know. He's like, he is a guy who just loves when anyone is naked, right? And doesn't know how to have sex. I mean, that's just off of basic instinct. Off of basic instinct, I'm like, what do you think sex is? Like, what?

He's such a weird man the one quote that because the there is like that co-ed shower scene that is pretty important to like understanding the world and i feel like is like one of the only scenes that i felt like got close to saying something and then ultimately didn't because it was just basically explaining like like what a barrier not serving in the military would be to like achieving any dream you'd have whether you want to be a parent or a politician or a writer or like you have to serve in order to just like live somewhat autonomously yeah so it's a helpful scene to include they're all naked which is very paul verhoeven like i don't know i guess i wasn't like particularly bothered because everyone was more or less framed in a similar way right but i liked so paul ver i guess that that was the scene that he had the most

difficulty getting through not the five trillion gory brutal deaths um not people being ripped limb from limb not someone's brain getting literally sucked out of their head he's like decapitations and so this is okay i'll give you the quote and then i'll give you the context because it's a fun twist uh so he says this quote about that kind of editing struggle he said uh because he's dutch he says americans get more upset about nudity than ultraviolence. I am constantly amazed about that. I mean, I haven't seen any sex scenes in American film that are anything other than completely boring. A bare breast is more

difficult to get through the sensors than a body riddled with bullets. I think that's a very valid point, right? Like that's, and yeah, it's true. And, and I feel like the nudity of this movie, at least compared to other movies of its time, I didn't think it was like particularly, I mean, it didn't need to be there, but it felt like gender wise, it was just like, I guess we're all naked in this scene. I wasn't super bothered by it. But the twist in this scene is that, so apparently he was having trouble even getting permission to shoot the scene. And then the cast, it says on Scholarly Journal Wikipedia, the cast agreed to do the co-ed shower scene only if Verhoeven agreed to direct the scene naked, which he did.

Wow. Respect. Which is like, I can't imagine a world in which having paul verhoeven naked would make me more comfortable but that was that was what the cast said and so that was how he got the topless scene through was by being also topless i mean there is something about the like you you're in this with us, you know, kind of thing. Like, we're all going to share in this, like, experience that could feel embarrassing. Yeah.

So, you know, he was, you know, at least willing to participate. It's like the more sexual version of when Greta Gerwig wore the prom dress during the Lady Bird prom scene. Right. I don't know. This scene felt to me like gratuitous nudity, especially because most of the nudity you see is women's breasts. And it just felt to me like an excuse to show some titties. Right. And I just wasn't sure why it was happening.

But I don't know. Maybe that's just me being a Puritan. I disagree on this specific scene. I don't know. I feel like all the bodies in this scene, especially when you compare it to other. I always think of the shower scene that opens Carrie. Exactly. I was thinking the same thing.

It's so gratuitous. It's so predatory too because it's like these are high school girls and there's no reason for us to see this like it doesn't add anything to the movie whereas this and it's like it's like it's voyeuristic right whereas this this it's like they're all taking a shower together and none of them are sexualizing it like there's a way in which i can see i can see verhoeven's like kind of thinking of like we gotta just you guys gotta calm down with like how like we're both repressed and over sexualized you are in your society and one of the way one of the ways to do that instead

of like seeing nudity in like some sexual context it's like we're all just like everyone showers they're all showering together no one's making comments on other people's body parts and they're having actual like a real conversation right they're talking about their hopes and dreams topless and i'm like well i guess that's as close to enjoying this group of people as i'm gonna get uh i i mean yeah it's like i think that it's a little bit different when it comes to that like weird sex scene with uh with johnny and dizzy like i think that i i would argue is a little more gratuitous but the shower scene i was pretty unbothered by i don't know but also i was reading that test the way that like i don't know just i'm just like wow america is uh so fucking uh broken

right but like test audiences for this movie um did not comment on the brutal violence at all they were just like i can't believe that people were topless and then they also felt like the original notes were that they felt it was immoral for carmen to choose a career ahead of being loyal to rico and they they wanted, like audiences wanted that change, not even Paul Verhoeven. And that Carmen should have- It was immoral. Immoral.

And that Carmen should have died instead of Dizzy because she made the sin of choosing a career over some fucking guy. And Paul Verhoeven- Holy crap. 1997. And I guess that was like overwhelmingly, they they're like i hated that i saw nudity and you should have killed denise richards for wanting a job and you're like oh my god no you should have killed everyone for being a fascist like we're missing the thing here

so i don't know yeah all all the sexism in this movie has been added, but it seems like audiences wanted more. There was a high demand for the female characters to be treated worse. That is absolutely wild. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia.

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subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore.

The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge, better known as the Twats. Yep. You heard that right. We're the hosts of Two Teas in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week we break down every episode and give you our opinions. We cover it all. OC, Jersey, Beverly Hills, New York City, Dubai. As we always say, you're only as good as last

week's episode. Plus, we're talking to all your favorite Bravo celebrities and not just housewives. We're putting your favorite people in the twat seat and getting the juicy stories everybody wants to know. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble. And we're back uh should we talk about uh these gals yeah let's talk about the gals uh should we start with carmen yeah yeah okay okay okay everyone in this movie is a bad actor right like pretty much or like all the main not neil patrick i mean i feel like didn't okay denise richards and casper van question mark are bad actors but watching denise richards pretend to steer a spaceship was like i was losing it it's so funny she's because she her eyes are just kind of glazed and the eyeline doesn't quite make

sense and then she just like pulls like gently pulls a little i was like i've seen star wars i think it's harder to drive this thing than you're making it look i tend to i i think she was maybe miscast for this role but at the same time every time i love denise richards but this movie gets brought up everyone's like oh yeah that's that movie that like denise richards is in for some reason and then like people are like i feel like unnecessarily cruel to her so then so then i'm like oh i guess i kind of feel bad for like dumping on her for her performance in this i'm just as happy to dump on almost anyone in this movie gary bucey's son the lead of this movie is like i'm not getting anything from him he's just a he's just a blank slate but the but it kind of it is this weird thing where it felt intentional for them to be

like these like very young conventionally attractive very very white very Aryan like like oh you know here these are the these are the the the men and women we put on our our poster board you know for for Nazi Germany um and I was like I was kind of like I kind of like didn't I don't know the I didn't like, it didn't necessarily pull me out because of what I was watching. You know what I mean? Like there, like it wasn't like there was something, I guess that's twofold there. I didn't feel like the script was giving anything deeper, but I also realized that better actors probably could have done something that the script wasn't doing.

And that even the director maybe wasn't even trying to do um and make these characters feel more you know three-dimensional but they were it was very two-dimensional and most of these i mean most of the like the main quote-unquote teen actually 30 year old uh cast like most of them are 90s tv stars so they were just like people who were on tv at the time because like neil patrick harris was doogie hauser dina meyer was on like beverly hills 90210 denise richards was on tv like these were all just kind of like teen soap stars that were put in this movie about uh militaristic fascism so i don't really understand the expectation for any of them to thrive in this environment. That said, Denise Richard driving a spaceship makes me laugh.

As far as her character goes in general, I was not impressed with the way that she was written, believe it or not. Because basically, like, so it's the type of character who's like, okay, she's really smart. She's really good at what she does. She's able to work her way up through the ranks. But she, like, just has absolutely no dimension or, like, nuance to her character. Like, she has no flaws. She never makes any mistakes. Her main journey is, like is picking between two assholes.

That's her journey. Well, I guess her journey was to become a pilot. And then she, by the end, is a captain. Her journey is the career path. And then this romance thing. It is fun. I will say none of the female characters are written very well at all uh but i also don't think any of the male characters were written well in this movie at all

so there's like a there's at least a parody in the in the sense in the sense that they're all two-dimensional characters that said like it's still rico still the lead yeah i i i think this was i don't know like i like that she's it feels like a kind of like an empty gesture of like she's an amazing pilot which is like okay that's great but she kind of achieves her goal immediately like the first time she gets in the pilot seat they're like you're amazing at this and then she just continues to succeed at it right um and her main thing is like zander versus johnny and it seems like i like that she's the one to break up with Johnny. Like it seems like she's being pretty realistic about everything.

She's like, because she's barely into him at the beginning. Like he has to keep reminding her that he's her boyfriend. He's like, I love you. Do you love me at all? And she's like, I guess. She's like, we're in high school, man. Like, dude, like chill. Like we're in high school man like yeah dude like chill like we're we're a high school boyfriend girlfriend we're literally not gonna know

each other when we graduate she's just kind of being i appreciate that she's being a realist about her high school relationship and i am and i don't know i don't like dislike carmen i just like we know nothing about any of these kids right and also it is very jarring when all of their families die and they don't really react not react barely I mean there's the one cross-gender yeah where she's like I you know I every time I think about it I'm crying but like she's not crying in that moment and it doesn't seem like she's actually that sad uh anyways i'm like oh my god yeah their entire families die which i feel like really gets glazed over uh which it's again it's just like well then don't have them live there if you're not gonna have them react to their entire families dying

i don't know it's very strange but yeah I feel like Carmen the most like we don't really know she kind of achieves her goal right away and then it's just kind of like she's I like that she's like present and there's definitely she has her own storyline but I don't know it was not very moved by the Xander versus Johnny Rico uh decision and she also didn't seem she seemed pretty set on like what she wanted so it wasn't even really a struggle for her really at any point right she was just like she was like yeah we're like I'm gonna be in a career and you're in the mobile infantry like we're not gonna see each other so blah blah and then he gets upset because he sees that other guy and it wasn't even like she was like i'm leaving you for him it was just like we're never gonna

be together and also there's somebody else here that maybe i'll have a thing with you know right and i'm just like generally annoyed by xan like the whole xander thing it's like added for the movie and also adds nothing it's like it, it's always so frustrating to me when a random guy is added into a scene where there's a more interesting female character literally sitting right next to him for every scene he's in. Like her captain, like I'm like,

could we, could she, could we talk to her? No, she gets killed. And then it's just about this guy Xander. Like, are they going to kiss or are they going to hit an asteroid asteroid and that happens like 40 times he he also has no personality like we we literally know nothing about him he's introduced in the most like basic way of like they're playing some weird new version of football gymnastics football gymnastics football was fun that was like one of my favorite parts and they're like all right if we all right we're gonna prove who's the better guy for your

girl by who wins this sports game and you're like first of all she doesn't care at all and also why what is happening like and then the two of them have another fight later on where he's like you know what let's punch each other rank doesn't even matter and then they just like have this like broey fist fight and i'm like yeah i was like don't care about this and it's also like even carmen looks bored during this scene because she's like this is just like is this necessary and it's like yeah i wish i knew what was on your mind i don't know and also it's like in general i don't know it's we sort of we weirdly talked about this on our cadet kelly episode but it's like you know i i don't know in

this movie i it's like i guess you don't often see women in combat in movies, but I'm like, I don't want to see fascist women in combat. How is that? Like, that's not the representation win. I think this movie wants to think it is. I was going to say, if fans of yours suggested this movie, I'm wondering if it's because,

because of the little crumbs that you're still getting in 1997. There is a way to look at this and be like, wow, they had women in high ranks of every part of this military. She becomes a pilot. She does better than him. She becomes a pilot. You have Diaz, who's really great. Her captain is a woman.

When the general gets taken over over that's like a black woman like so there's like there are and like there are women in combat and there's never um no one's ever saying things like you're you fight pretty good for a girl or like there's nothing like that or like i've i grew up one of the boys like you're not getting any of that stuff football team you know like yeah so like you know in a certain way like if you're just looking at the like kind of general setting that this world is placed in, you're like, okay, it seems like women have some sort of parody in this world, but then the movie is still following the guy, you know? And because of that, any real conversations are always about him or happening because of him.

Or as the audience, we're supposed to be thinking about what is going to happen to him because of what else is happening. You know what I mean? And the women are still framed as like basically just being romantic prospects for him. Yeah, it's supposed to be like a love triangle that we don't care about. Because that's his story and his whole story is a is a romantic story like even at the end where he's like rah rah military like what does that mean what does that even mean for him like what what decision has he come to outside of just like fascism is good i guess i don't know but it's and he only has he only has that like whole journey that whole

character arc because he joined the military for carmen he's like otherwise he was gonna go to harvard or something which is another super weak decision too because it's also like they knew that they were going to get separated immediately like his motivation in the movie makes no sense he knows he's not going to go to pilot school he might as well just be going to college like they could still be communicating the same way like i don't know that was one of the things i thought the book did better is it at least like he was motivated by something that wasn't just like sure why not like it just just so strange i don't know and then on the other hand, you have Dizzy's character. Oh, my God.

I'm so fucking frustrated because there's I had to like text Caitlin to make sure I didn't miss something. But Dizzy clearly joins the military to follow Johnny, who joined the military to follow Carmen. Right. And I'm just like, why are we all what are we doing here? And then Dizzy. Well, she denies that. She denies that she joined the military to follow yeah but then it's like but clearly she did and there's no other nothing else

has ever presented so I'm like oh I guess her dying words are at least I got you so she clearly that's exactly why she literally had no other purpose in life that was also a really weak bizarre bizarre death scene. Like both actors are giving me nothing.

Like she's like, at least I saw you. And he's like, oh, like you're like, oh, this is so gross. She's like, at least I got to fuck you one time in a sleeping bag. Like, oh, so bleak. But yeah, I don't know. Dizzy is such a frustrating character because i feel like paul verhoeven is almost trying to do this flip thing of like look she's aggressively pursuing him and ignoring his boundaries that he's setting and it's like that's not something you need gender

swapped really uh you don't just swap it and be like is it woke now is it like not really but what's interesting is that it's riz right that's her character's dizzy sorry why did i say riz her name's rizzo right yeah yeah dizzy she out of all of them she seemed like the one best equipped to be in the military and then right there is that part that happens too where well yeah i was wondering your takes on that where like they're doing the obstacle course and she like knocks the two guys you know into the mud right into the mud yeah and then like even like when they first they did something, it was like her plan that like got them to win whatever combat training exercise they were doing. And then he was like, well, you know, like Dizzy helped. But then like when it came down to when he got to pick, like when he was in command again and he like needed whatever.

I don't know if it wasn't lieutenant but whatever like right hand man corporal maybe yeah that's what it was somebody he needed a corporal and then he like picks uh gary bucey's son like bucey and bucey's like nah nah i already i already screwed it up dude i i love that he is being honest with himself he's like i am ill-equipped i am just a nepotism pick. I just showed up here. I'm just Gary Busey's son. Please don't pick me.

Yeah, and only then, after Gary Busey's son, he's probably got a first name, but who knows? Jake. Jake. Yeah, so only after Jake Busey's character is like, no, I'm not, I'm going to mess this up again, does Johnny then turn to Dizzy and be like, do you want this? How about, I guess you're right there. But it's like, yeah, she has proven herself to be capable,

but it seems like she keeps getting passed over for promotions stuff right and on top of that because i sometimes get kind of like frustrated when it's like the movie is like i am feminist because for some like just kind of almost mary suing a female character but but that doesn't even happen to dizzy because we know that she's like a better football player than johnny at the beginning like she's she is the most athletic character but then she's like never it's it I'm like I don't know why they go so out of the way to have her never be anyone's top pick for anything because it's like we're supposed to be in this like post-gender world because other women are getting opportunities so I was like

well then what why is it her that we don't see like what's her name is flying up the ranks i mean carmen is like carmen's flying up those she's driving a fucking ford focus in space like it's yeah i i i hadn't even thought about like comparing their careers but it's like's, I don't understand the reason why Dizzy wouldn't be kind of flying up the ranks because she's more capable and this is supposed to be a world where it doesn't matter. Right. Yeah.

And then I also wanted to talk about women getting fridged or damseled in this movie because Dizzy is fridged because she's killed in combat. Yeah. And then going back to Carmen really quick, there's a similar sort of like damseling scene at the end where it plays out in a less bad way than I thought it would, where I thought she would like really have to be like, you know, Johnny would have to swoop in and really save the day.

But she like holds, she chops off the bit you know the brain bugs the knife yeah brain sucking tube uh and like kind of like gets away herself but even so i'm like okay these women are framed in such a way where they are horny for the men around them whoever's closest to them is like whoever they're most horny for. And then they are killed or damseled usually. I choose to interpret Carmen as never being that interested in Johnny because it seems like Johnny's bullying Carmen into being in a relationship with him. It's again that same weird chain of command where Johnny is trying to bully Carmen into loving him. Meanwhile, Dizzy is trying to bully Johnny into loving her and then at the end you're like I'm I don't want any of it and then Carl's just like I'm a fascist

like he's interested in no one I don't think this is any credit to the movie but at the end they're not like together they don't have like a one of those like kiss you know victory kisses that we see at the end of movies a lot of times like she's not she doesn't say anything like we should have always been together anything like that it's just like you know they still care about it it's i think in the reality of of what was presented they wouldn't get together like at the end she'd be like you're such a great friend and we should still remain friends by the way just just in case you weren't you weren't clear on that let's be friends and fascists like all three of

us are yeah we all won the war for you know killed the bugs and ultimately like dizzy being fridged kind of like i feel like feeds into this narrative of like she was the right girl for him because she was willing to die for him in the state unlike carmen who wanted to fly a ship like i don't know well clearly the test audience is about that yeah they're like you should have killed the woman who wanted a job i don't know ultimately i was very uncomfortable looking for feminist messaging inside of a fascist movie and that was i was just like i women can be nazis too i know i was just like this is the reader if the reader taught me anything it's that women can also be nazis this uh i mean i appreciate that paul verhoeven wanted to say something with this movie, but I just don't think that he was successful. Yeah.

Going back to the world building of this story and the quote unquote utopia that this movie is taking place within, there does seem to be gender parity in the world of this story. Sexism doesn't really seem to exist. Well, they tell us that. The movie makes sexist choices. Right. Because it's a movie from the 90s. But the world it is depicting seems to be less sexist. And I feel like a similar thing is happening regarding race, where, again, the movie makes

racist choices. But like part of the world building in this story is that racism doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Which also, none of this tracks for fascism, like that racism and sexism wouldn't exist in a fascist society, so I don't really understand that. But the movie, yeah, it's making some weird choices regarding race. Jamie, you had mentioned that in the movie like yeah it's making some some weird choices regarding race uh jamie you had mentioned that in the book the characters are filipino yes and then that gets whitewashed

for the movie yes and the way the director explains whitewashing it was like he he essentially says that it he doesn't think that an audience will understand a world. Like, he's like, oh, well, if they're fascists, it would feel weird for them to not be extremely white. Which is like, I see where he's going with it. I see where he's going with it. But whitewashing the entire movie seems like an extreme end to go to. I don't know. Well, once again, it's like, sure, but your movie wasn't really anti-fascist in any real way so like like again it's just one of those things where it just seems like a

it's like a nice thing to say but it's like but that's not really what you were doing you know you were you weren't making much of a commentary just adding a couple of scenes doesn't make much commentary on like right why we shouldn't be anti-fascist especially when the everyone wins in the end like i i don't right the fascists win i uh that's i think most of my problems with this movie go back to the fact that like everything the director describes of like what he wants to do sounds like pretty interesting and sounds but that but he just failed at all of those things like none of the things happened yeah right i found a quote from an article in screen rant entitled starship troopers meaning explained what it was really about love these kinds of articles they're like what happened at the end of oh my gosh

i read so many of these articles and reviews being like oh my gosh starship troopers is brilliant satire and if you can't see that then well was there something wrong with you um so as this title suggests this is another one of these articles i have yet to find anything in any of these articles that gives a any kind of convincing examples or arguments about why and how the satire is clear and effective none of them have been able to they're just like well you know a lot of the audiences took the film at face value but they're missing the point because well the movie puts the characters in nazi regalia so that's obvious satire get it but it's not obvious satire if the nazis win like i don't understand how hard that

is to explain because he's explaining star wars shit that like it's clearer in star wars because they're the bad guys like or if like even if they do win if it's so obviously horrible like if it's so obviously horrible to us but again the motivation like even having the motivation for johnny change because his parents were killed by the bugs like that's a real that's a real thing now like like now i'm in now i'm like yeah i mean like maybe the reason this war started wasn't great but these bugs just like destroyed an entire city like millions and millions of people like that's a real reason to go to war you know what i mean like that's a real reason to like join an army and be like i'm gonna like either defend earth or enact revenge because like you're everyone

you knew was killed like you know whether that even the revenge part even if that's wrong you can there's still like a you know a touch point that we all can relate to of like yeah man if like if like everybody i knew was wiped out like and i had nothing else to live for like you know so so that's the that's what i'm talking about like we and then we don't get any of that like like there's like a slight satirical thing for him like when he when neil patrick harris is there and he's like that's what we're infantry for we do the dying you know and right blah blah blah does the flying but then like but then they win and like the guy was proven right like he was like all right we captured the like all of my everything i did worked you know and it was like yeah okay so it's just like it doesn't land at all like it well here's the the quote from this article quote in a 2014 interview

with the adam carolla show okay Okay, well this is off to a rocky start. Off to a great start. Okay, so the king of perfect takes. What did he say? Michael Ironside, who plays Razchek in the film, who played a militant

officer in Starship Troopers, said that he asked Verhoeven why he was making a right-wing fascist movie. To that, Verhoeven told him, if I tell the world that a right-wing fascist way of doing things doesn't work, no one will listen to me. So I'm going to make a perfect fascist world. Everyone is beautiful. Everything is shiny. Everything has big guns and fancy ships, but it's only good for killing fucking bugs, end quote. So the director clearly wanted a message that was more subtle and like not super preachy, which I totally understand for certain things,

but I don't think that subtlety is necessarily the way to go when speaking out against fascism the other thing that's hard about this is like it's not like everyone in that world was like we need to get like yes the people in the army were like that but like we get a sense that there is a world to fight for you know what i mean like there's a world to defend for and the intro to all this is like the bugs are like hurling asteroids at Earth. And we know that like an asteroid in real life like killed all of the dinosaurs. So it's kind of like, yeah, they're trying to commit like a genocide of the human race. So that's a legitimate reason to fight people. And then the only suggestion that we get that like humans started the war is like these like one liners. I think they come at like two different points and it's not explained at all.

So and we don't relate to the bugs at all. Yeah. I don't know why anyone would look at this movie and go, I don't want to live in this world. Because at the end of the day, I'm like, yeah, like maybe I wouldn't want to join the military, but I'm glad we have a military. I'm glad they're doing what they do so that I don't get wiped out by an asteroid being hurled at the Earth. Right. It's like even because it's like we have not covered many movies about war on this show uh and and i do think like it is like i i have like

a lot of different feelings about war movies but it's like there are war movies that are well done that make it like clear the like brutalness and the different sacrifices and the different reasons that everyone comes to be in a war whether they want to or not depending on what the war is and it's like it this movie starts that and then it just doesn't do anything with it like i really do like the group shower scene in this movie that i think is like the strongest start you get into like some insight into like why people are you know why people enlist and like what the different circumstances are that kind of bring you there instead of doing a wide sweeping like war and everyone who participates it in is bad like that is like an easy point to make for someone who has never been

involved in a war like i just uh but then it just all falls apart man man. It's a bummer. Yeah. And then to go back to that conversation about race. So we have these whitewashed characters, which I understand the intention behind Verhoeven's choice to do that. Instead, though, he has the characters be from Argentina, and they maintain their Latin names from the book so you know you've got like Juan Rico, Carmen Ibanez, Dizzy Flores like but they're all played by like white American actors it's weird and I don't like I'm just like well I I don't know what Argentina is like you know 700

years in the future when this movie takes place or whenever it's supposed to take place but that just felt like another peculiar choice and again it's not even like he's like saying this but it's like yeah but there are black there are people of color like in the film like it's just that they're not, they're all supporting characters. Like, they're all, like, minor supporting characters. Like, so you just had all your leads be white. I don't know. You can, like, say whatever you want. Like, it's like, it's not like you had, it's not like some genocide had taken place in, like, all of, like, in this world, there are no black people anymore.

You know what I mean? Or whatever it is. Like, it's like like they're still there they clearly can serve like they can reach high ranking positions just that we don't know who any of those people are because you're not focusing on any of them right and it even seems like to the point where there's kind of like a revolving door of non-white characters where we meet oh who's the who's the the woman we meet in boot camp who is partially responsible for the for the guy's head being blown off and like it's her and johnny that they're like they're the two people and then

she leaves the military she gets kicked out which is like fair enough i would also be like oh this is clearly not for me but it's like that we we had a strong introduction to her like she was like i want to be in politics. I have this dream. And I was like, oh, cool. But then 10 minutes later, she was like, I'm out of here. I feel like she didn't leave on her own accord. I feel like she got discharged. Did she get booted?

Yeah, I think she got booted. I'm not even sure. Because then Johnny has to fight to stay. Exactly. Well, they were going to maybe boot him. And they were like, look, we already lost two two soldiers for this let's not lose a third and then it was kind of like what why do you want to save that dude not that black one we just kicked out but it's the fact that it's not even clear because i my read was she left on her own accord because she was just so upset over the

death of this like team member of hers so like but the fact that it's not clear means that we like the story doesn't bother to check in with her and like see how she's feeling or what exactly happened right because the movie has no vested interest in any of the characters who are people of color yeah there's no explanation it's the basically we get one image and it's her with her backpack crying, looking at everybody inside. In the background of the scene. Like, you're just like, that was so,

and then our other, I feel like the other black characters we get to know well are Corporal Sugar Watkins and then who? Is that the, there's the dude from The Walking Dead who plays the priest. To you there's the dude from The Walking Dead who to you he's dude from The Walking Dead to me he's the guy from Teen Wolf he's been on a lot of TV

I guess he was also on The Wire but unfortunately yes that's right he's on The Wire he's a cop on The Wire my brain doesn't work and therefore I know him from Teen Wolf the series that's hilarious but yeah walk-ins that character he's the guy who sacrifices himself at the end for all of the white people and we don't meet him till halfway through and like there he just he shows

up in the middle of the second act and it's like there's no there's no non-white characters that we get to see their storyline all the way through at all i don't even think any of them survive do that black woman survive i i wonder the other one because there were two black people it was like him it was like him and uh and the and that woman right yeah whose name i feel like is said out loud once what is her name but yeah so many people die i can't believe how did johnny live through that attack by the way did we ever talk about that like how did he how did he possibly survive how did they get him out of there he's not even good like he's not even how did he possibly live they were gone

everyone had fallen back there was like legions of bugs swarming. There was one that comes crawling on top of him when he's completely pinned. And we're supposed to believe that not only did they get him out of there, but he survived? Right. Right. Who saved him? I feel like I've already stated I'm not a a fan of xander but he was definitely better at war than johnny was and he got his brain sucked out but when he was surrounded by like

one-tenth of the amount of bugs he got his brain sucked dry i love the idea that sucking like they can find out information by sucking the brains like live like because it's like oh they're still alive so like if we suck their like live brains will like it's ingest their information like what i don't even know what that was supposed to be it's nasty i will say i do like of the things i do like about this movie uh i love nasty nasty body horror effects and this movie really does deliver if you're a fan of nasty body horror people are getting slaughtered my god like cartoon slaughtered like yeah like it wasn't even close like like they just ripped apart limb from limb uh just impaled constantly just like their back slit open yeah just the brain suck you're

just like oh that's so it's so i'm hard to like get grossed out but there were some that was like fuck that is right absolutely disgusting and i feel like you know what's so funny i feel like i feel like i've seen i saw this movie a couple times and one time i didn't watch it all the way through and i just thought that they just all died at the end because i was just like well there's no I feel like I saw this movie a couple times, and one time I didn't watch it all the way through, and I just thought that they just all died at the end. Because I was just like, well, there's no chance they're getting out of this. When they get trapped in that desert thing,

I was like, there's zero chance you make it out of here. Right. And I feel like that's how this movie should have ended, which is everyone dying. Just everyone dying. And then I would have been like, it is kind of a critique on fascism, isn't it? Right.

Yeah. Fascism doesn't work. The bugs will kill you. Not in this one. What a disaster. Truly. Also worth noting that there are a couple disabled characters. The main one being Roz Cech,

who is played by an able-bodied actor, Michael Ironside. His character has an arm that's been amputated. Yeah, and it's very of this era to not even consider having a disabled actor play a disabled character.

But on top of that, it seems like his disability is mainly used to scare people which is uh also not uh not a very thoughtful uh top to bottom it felt like intentional to be like look at like the like this is what war does to you it like just right dismembers you and but these people are all still serving you know know, and they're like, you should be lucky to like go to war and lose a leg, you know. Yeah.

And there's some interesting commentary to be had there. Did the movie make it? Yeah. Again, any commentary this movie makes is more, is like passing and suggestions, but like never the actual point of the movie. Yeah. You know. I was truly surprised at how many writers and critics have just like kind of put it all on the line

to say that actually this movie is saying everything. But it's like, well, I don't know. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree there with all the people who wrote what you don't understand about starship troopers you tiny brained fool like right what'd you get your brain sucked out you don't even know that this movie is awesome satire get your brain sucked out by a bug that's the thing is like there's just like yeah there's a little again we've said this so many times there's a little bit but it's not enough it's just i don't

know yeah i have to imagine that this was like hard to get a lot of stuff approved and it's like i will give verhoeven the fact that it's like especially with a movie with this big of a budget like i'm sure that he that stuff that would have he would have liked to have in the movie didn't end up in there and like but but there's so many high level decisions that fail that it's like well he's got to take he's got to take the L to some extent yeah it's disappointing it's disappointing it's like I was actually hoping that there would be a lot more commentary than it feels like that it feels like there was and it's just like one of these things where I'm like nobody who believes in this stuff is going to watch this movie and think that their way of thinking is incorrect like if anything this

movie just reaffirms what people believe you know like yeah because that's what that's that's the consequences of the movie the consequences of the movie are like yeah this guy is a hero and he saved a bunch of people and he you know was dedicated to the cause and if everybody works together and we're militaristic they will always defend our home like i don't know like there's no there's nothing else presented for that to for that to not be the case yeah i totally agree yeah I don't see a fascist watching this movie and then being like, oh my gosh, I was so wrong. I need to change my mind. Has a fascist mind been changed by Starship Troopers?

That's the true yardstick. And I want to be clear that people are welcome to disagree with us. I'm sure there are listeners who see this movie as clear and effective satire, especially because like, as director Paul Verhoeven has stated, that was his intent with the film. So I'm not arguing about his intentions. And he's coming from a particularly, he's coming from a place where he is better qualified than a lot of people to make art critiquing fascism because he was raised in nazi occupied amsterdam my argument is that

for me his intentions did not come across as clearly as i think they could or should have. Yeah. If you're trying to condemn militaristic, fascist ideologies. I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I and I also like I really, I really love the intent behind this movie. And I think it's like a really ballsy idea to be like, I'm going to take this source material that's really fucked up. And i'm going to say the opposite while using the same story like i don't think that that's an impossible thing to do but it just it just didn't work out for this one we should do more paul verhoeven movies though he i mean what a catalog what a legacy how have we not done showgirls at this point oh my gosh we simply must shocking we'll get there that's it that's a good one to do for this podcast for sure oh yeah does this movie pass the bechdel test i don't know i think it does

wait i think it very very briefly does by our standards which are like i mean the standards of the test in general are pretty low, but Carmen and her commanding officer who is named, but what is her name? She is. Oh, that was my question. She does get named, but I cannot tell you exactly what it is. Dizzy talks to a corporal as well. That was the other thing I had. And then Dizzy and Carmen do have one scene where they're at least one scene um where uh carmen's like hi dizzy and dizzy says carmen wow we know their names they speak to each other but like the like subtext behind that is connected to a boy yeah they're like oh yeah who like are you dating my ex-boyfriend yeah oh my god, my God. The looks that Dizzy shoots Carmen while Carmen's minding her business is very funny.

But it's a loose pass. It's like a barely pass. A loose pass. Yeah, it's a loose pass. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I think something I want to do moving forward just for like my personal Bechdel test analysis is could the conversation that

arguably does pass the Bechdel test be removed from the movie and the movie is no different or like the plot is not effective like is it an important conversation that like informs yeah the story if not then it's like a not good pass I like that thank you so much i mean it's so hard for this film because there's like a part of me that's like does any like what is the story really at the end of the day right you know what i mean like what is the takeaway it's so hard to care about any of these characters but i guess in terms of like carmen's journey her relationship with the captain, even though it's so barely there is like informative to like her character arc in some way. And she does become the captain.

Yeah. Yeah. So like her, the captain, like talking to her about anything, which is generally about her career is like, cause that's kind of her motivation. So yeah,

I guess in that sense, it's good if the, cause if her captain wasn't it wasn't a woman then this movie would have no shot right right it's not it simply is not i don't know like i should should we just do the ratings yeah let's just do our nipple rating yeah which is a scale of zero to five nipples based on an examination of the movie through an intersectional feminist lens so all things considered everything we talked about i'm going to have to give this movie maybe a half nipple the women in this movie are framed in

relation to like the men in their life or like they're there because they know Johnny Rico kind of thing. And I just didn't find really any of their arcs or storylines very compelling. Yeah. And then again, the execution of this political satire not being very clear. Here's what I wrote in my notes team america world police is more effective satire and condemnation of like military practices than starship troopers absolutely wow absolutely thank you so much america world police is like because it's so the intent is so clear

you can disagree with like the jokes that they do and and that kind of stuff but like they're it's it's a it's such an obvious thing of being like this is how america sees itself it's so absolutely utterly ridiculous that we see ourselves as the world police. Because that's real. Absolutely, yeah. And that's not to say that satire can't be subtle. But if it's so subtle that it's not really there, such as Starship Troopers, it doesn't really work. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, anyway. Yeah, half nipple. And I'll give it to the bugs because, you know, they've just they were just colonized. And what did they do wrong? Right. Yeah. From from intersectional feminist lens, I I'm giving it zero. I don't want I don't like I don't I don't want to root for a fascist girl boss and I'm not going to.

Fair. So I'm giving it zero, because even when the women are portrayed with arcs and with dreams and with ambitions, they're fascists. I don't. Yeah. No nipples. No nipples. None to distribute. Come on.

That's fair. I appreciate the Verhoeven effort. I think his work is really risky and bizarre, and this one didn't hit for me. I feel like I'm grading it on a curve and also based on my own expectations coming in. So I was going to give it a one and a half only because I did think that for what the world was like, they did have women in different positions and like they had black women, too.

And like, you know, she like took over the military and, you know, they were like good, like they could hold their own. There wasn't, you know, I just feel like this time period, there's so much of that, like, oh, you're a sporty Spice. You know what I mean? Like, you're the, oh, you're a tomboy. Like, and none of that, that conversation, like, just truly didn't even exist in the film. And, like, people seem to acknowledge everyone's skills for what they were. And they didn't, like, add gender on top of that. Yeah. everyone's skills for what they were and they didn't like add gender on top of that yeah that said like it's still i mean it was just completely like the movie's still like like everything the movie says is is is not yeah it has nothing to do with any of that

but i don't know i just i just feel like it still did more than a lot of films at the time which isn't saying much but yeah you know 97 uh what a time what we did get titanic and oh my gosh yeah that's about all we got um all right so so that's starship troopers starship troopers there you asked for it yeah but for the people who asked you happy now i hope you're happy i bet they're not though i bet they're not except they wanted us to be like it's secretly genius they're furious with us yeah the people who asked for it aren't happy and the people who didn't ask for are like i didn't ask for they're really unhappy they're not listening right now they're like i'm upset amazing how this is our worst episode ever i'm i'm actually genuinely very glad that uh we went down the rabbit hole in this one because I've been curious about it for a long time.

And it is. I mean, it's it. I don't think it accomplishes what it's trying to, but it's definitely unique. I've never seen a movie like this. And I. So there is that. Indeed. Jonathan, thank you so much for being here with us for joining us in this discussion where can uh people check out your stuff follow you on

social media yeah you can follow me at john braylock j-o-n-b-r-a-y-l-o-c-k uh podcast black men can't jump in hollywood It's available wherever you get your podcasts. We also talk about films with leading black actors in the context of race. That's super fun. And if you've never seen Astronomy Club on Netflix, check it out. It's fun.

It's on Netflix. Six episodes, a quick binge. We'll finish it maybe in one sitting. You simply must. It's very funny. It's the best yeah uh yeah that's it cool thanks again thanks so much for hanging out with us yeah thanks for having me this was great i would love to yeah and uh yeah you can follow us on social media as well twitter and instagram at bechtel cast you can subscribe to our patreon, a.k.a. Matreon. Patreon.com slash Spectalcast.

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