The Bechdel Cast - Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

This week, Caitlin and Jamie discuss Tangerine with three special guests, Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle.(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @kaichoyce @VioletSilver & @msdahliabelle on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's right, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Bechtelcast listeners. This is Jamie. And this is Caitlin. So we just

wanted to do a quick explainer at the top of this episode. We're doing something a little different this time. We're covering Tangerine, a movie that you know us, we have a lot of blind spots going into analyzing this movie. So we wanted to get a number of perspectives on it. So you will hear not one but three different guests today. Kai Choice is with us for the majority of the episode, but we also have analyses and input from two other incredible guests, Dahlia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that we talked with Dahlia and with Violet after the recording of this original episode. Yes. So enjoy the episode. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just

boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus. It's us. This is our podcast. This is our feminist movie podcast where we lead our discussion and our analysis using the Bechdel test, which is a media test made by queer writer allison bechdel sometimes called the bechdel wallace test uh but caitlin it's been a couple weeks what is the bechdel test i simply don't remember gee whiz i'll see if i can remember yeah um now historically uh we have and many people

have used a version of the bechdel test that... It's funny to use the word historically as it pertains to us, a show that's been on for four years. Historically, no. No. Historically. I see where you're going. I see where you're going with this. Yes. Thank you so much.

But like with us and then also on a larger scale, many people use the Bechdel test in terms of do two women speak to each other? That's what we've always said. Now, in our ongoing effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way we see the Bechdel test. And rather than two women or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about something other than a man, the version of the test that we are going to use moving forward is two people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that includes non-binary people,

that includes intersex people, that includes trans men speak to each other about something other than a cis man. Yeah, a cis man. Because if there's anything we don't need more of in cinema, it's cis men. It's cis men. Right. So that is our Bechdel test moving forward.

Yes. Shall we try to make it pass? Okay, yes. Okay, this is a special dystopian edition of the test ready uh let's run it hey caitlin yes jamie i don't know why but the national guard just flew a drone over my house just something terrifying to think about um and we're talking about a drone that's an example of the battle test being passed yeah that is scary we live in a police state and um fuck the police defund the police yes if you if you uh if you're pro cop log out yeah go do some reading anyways um yes i'm very excited for the

movie that we're covering today. This has been a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this movie for a long time. But I'm glad we're doing it. We're covering Tangerine. Yes, we are. And we have a guest with us as always a special guest. He is a comedian, podcaster, host of Women Who Kill podcast. It's Kai Choice. Hello. Hey, Kai. How's it going? It is. It's going. It is. It is going.

That feels like, yeah, that feels like the right vibe. Was that a real, that was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually happened to you? No, I was on the phone with Caitlin before you jumped on the Zoom call, and it was like, it became really loud all of a sudden, and I looked out the window, and there was just a gigantic, like, low-flying drone just going over my neighborhood

that i need to do some googling about i was like i thought are they still here like i don't i don't know but it was very close and very i've never seen one in real life me either yeah um shaken Yeah. Shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time this episode airs, I will know more. But given who knows, you'll be fine. Yes. Like we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine. Kai, what is your relationship with this film? I love this movie. I saw this movie for the first time a couple years ago. Yeah. And the only thing that made me want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy. But also, I heard they shot it on an iPhone.

And I was like, I need to see how terrible this is and it wasn't it's great no it's like i i think that if i didn't know that this movie was shot on an iphone going into my first viewing i wouldn't have guessed it i would i would have been like oh it looks like a diy movie but i never would have guessed it was shot on an iphone yeah yeah i would have thought they just they did something weird to stylize it i'm like no that's that's just how it looks when when that's what you use but it worked also two white guys two white guys produced it yes that impressed me we'll talk all about that yeah but the director of this movie is a white man named sean baker and then he co-wrote

it with uh chris berg go bergach well we'll talk about that though because i think that i think that the writing credits of this movie are a little are a little bit belong to messed up other people yes yes uh why the the improv or well, yeah, and we'll cover this more when we get into this discussion, but the central conflict of this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one lead actor in particular, Kitana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy, actually a few things that happen in the movie, a few pretty major plot points, or, like, again, the whole story.

Her, like, lived experience. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah yeah things that either happened to her or friends of like happened to friends of hers that she just kind of like relayed the information to these white cis male screenwriters and i mean there's there's definitely like i said there's a whole discussion to be had but um okay yeah the production of this movie i didn't know anything about other than the iphone aspect There's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to be had. Okay. Yeah. The production of this movie, I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect. I didn't know much about the production of this movie. And there were a lot of twists and turns.

For sure. There's a Duplass brother that gets involved. You're just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, Jamie, what's your relationship and history with it? I have seen this movie before. I really, really enjoyed it. The first time I watched it just because I think it had come to streaming recently and I just wanted to see it because everyone's like, it's the iPhone movie and it's great. And I was like, OK.

And I really, really enjoyed it the first time I watched it. I wasn't at the time I wasn't watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it for for the show. And guess what? I still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same. What about you, Caitlin? Yeah, I saw it. It came out in 2015. I probably didn't watch it for the first time until a couple of years later. I think I saw it in 2017 the first time and I had heard similar things like they shot the whole thing on an iPhone. Isn't that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like who cares about that like it's such a monumental film for so many other reasons yeah um and it's so fun it's so funny it's I mean a romp uh you know me I love

a good romp um but it's yeah I I loved it I watched it I've seen it a few times now over the years and um big fan big fan i think it kind of selfishly it's fun because it takes place near where we all live and so yeah oh i know where oh cool i i think i know every i've driven past donut time before yeah but also there there are parts where you're like you didn't walk there you didn't walk from there there's no way yes i was like unless we're cutting to like hours later cool so should we uh jump in yeah let's do the recap cool so it's christmas eve it's a christmas movie in los angeles it's a christmas movie right it is oh oh this is good this should be added to the the official holiday movie master list.

Yeah, with Die Hard. For sure. And one of many reasons I like this movie is that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It kind of... Sometimes it's lighting. I feel like the main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun holiday lighting in some scenes.

Which we're like, all right, cool. But for the most part, everyone's just like, i don't really give a fuck that it's christmas and i'm like that's how i feel uh as the resident um scrooge mcgrinch of the group um did you just so scrooge mcgrinch uh-huh yes that is what i said and i'm so sorry everybody innovating innovating all over the place thank you it's actually the name of my new screenplay um scrooge mcgrinch the the anti-christmas story the anti-christ mass story yes it starts who does it start who does it start oh um oh my gosh honestly if alfred molina is not in this movie i'll pitch a fit it's true so he belongs somewhere in this universe i'm assuming it's an expanded universe there's a lot you know oh yeah i need i need at least four movies

to unpack you'll get them. I'm working on it. Okay, anyway, so it's Christmas Eve in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it? And we meet... West Hollywood, specifically. In West Hollywood, yeah.

We meet Cindy, played by Katana Kiki Rodriguez. You gotta spell it. Yes. It's not the, like, C-I-N-D-Y spelling that you might be accustomed to. Not the Brady spelling.

It's S-I-N hyphen D-E-E. Last name Rella. Last name Rella. So Cindy Rella. Yes. There's our protagonist's name. You don't call her protagonista? I can do that, though I'm not sure I will. And then she is with Alexandra, played by Maya of, but they think it begins with a D. And this was happening while Cindy was gone for the past few weeks. And we find out later that she was in jail for possession of drugs that she was holding for Chester.

She was in jail for 28 days, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. This is actually the sequel to 28 Days Later. By the way, RIP donut time. I know. It was a simpler time.

It was a donut-ier time. It was a donut-ier time. Wow. You're not wrong. Okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady. Yeah. The fish.

The fish. Mm-hmm. And Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her. And she's also handing out flyers for a show that Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at 7 p.m. Yes, this is where the walking comes in. You're just like, how did we get here so quickly? Right. Meanwhile, we meet Razmik, a cab driver,

and we see him driving some people around. Now, is this before, is this before, is this BU? Is this before Uber? before is this bu is this before uber or uh no uber was definitely a thing at this point it was just was it kind of new maybe like wasn't a gigantic threat to the cab industry yet i don't know because he seemed busy right he was always driving and it was like yeah i guess it would have been cab times i also i mean this movie was like shot let me get the exact dates of when this was shot because it might have been shot like at an even more cab time let me see okay it was filmed at the end of 2013

so i feel like that is pretty firmly like before Uber really, really caught on. Right. It was still it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and Lyft was it wasn't super popular. Yeah. But Kai, you said BU and that provides an opportunity for me to bring up something that I hate to bring up. Did you go to Mormon college? No, that's BYU. I went to BYU.

Yeah. And I did get a master's degree in screenwriting there. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose. I hate to bring it up, but you left me no choice. Okay, so we meet this cab driver and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash, played by Ian Edwards, who is a comic and actor, of course, but... He's really funny.

Super funny, yeah. Yeah. She asks Nash if he has seen Chester and he tells her to go to a food line where she might be able to get some more information from people. That leads her to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile, Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he completely shortchanges her from the jump, and then the situation escalates because...

Cops get involved, and because this is fiction, the cops are hella cool. Yeah, the cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas! Right, right. They're like, I'm gonna let this one slide, and you're just like, okay, cop.

Like, really? Would you do that? I don't think so. It's still fucked up. So then we see, we're back to Razmik driving around cruising. He's looking for a sex worker to pick up. And we learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. And then he and Alexandra cross paths because he is a regular client of hers.

Then Cindy finally finds the woman she's looking for. Her name is Dinah. Pulls her out of this party room at this motel and starts dragging her. Party room. Excellent. That's such a nice, that's a nice way of putting it. Party room is so wholesome. I know that motel, by the way.

Oh, no way. Where is it? It's at Hollywood and La Brea. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. I used to drive past there all the time going to Nerd Melt. I used to work at a, the only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone knew that that motel is like legit

that's all that motel does is they rent by the hour to sex workers and it was it was nice to see that you know they're still doing business they're still doing really well got some some full frontal male nudity we see at least one dick yeah it's a it's a scared dick it's a dick against the wall and you're like yeah she finds dinah she finds dinah and pulls her out like drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her across town toward donut time where she finds out that chester is but then she realizes it's a little past 7 p.m. and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy drags Dinah to Hamburger Mary's

to watch the performance. They get on a bus. They go on a city bus. You never see, that's like one small representation thing that I always really appreciate. You never see protagonists use public transit. And when you actually see it you're like

people people of course like they're but yeah they they they hang out on a real life la city bus what a dream and everyone has seen that yeah you know if you've ever like taken a bus for more than a couple days at a time you've you've seen a situation like that you're like i'm gonna pretend this isn't happening right now this is none of my business someone is probably in danger but this is a low-key hostage situation it's a hostage romp everyone minded their own business it was nice yeah we all got to where we were going um so meanwhile we see rasmik at home and realize that he is married he and his wife have a small child his mother-in-law lives with them so we realize basically he's kind of living this double life they are armenian yeah yes they're armenian they're i mean it is like there are so many

elements of this movie that make it like an awesome LA movie because it's so many like underrepresented communities in LA specifically are in and it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them like actually characterized and not just like in passing is yeah for the amount of movies that take place in LA it's like a super rarity it's cool totally um so he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's then we see her singing at the show and then we also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less antagonistic than they were a little bit I wanted to see Dinah continue to be beaten because the only two white people in this movie are the kind of white people who use the N-word because they think it's cool. Right.

And so anytime something bad was about to happen to them, I'm like, yes, bring it. More. Right, because it's her and Chester. And Chester, yeah. Yeah. It is wild because there is such a huge build in the movie to you meeting Chester. And then when you meet Chester, you're like... It's not what you expect. You're just like, this is who we were so...

This guy? All right. Maybe he has a great personality. And then he doesn't. No. And then he does not. This is who everyone was fighting for. Right.

Literally. Chester has no idea how good he has it. Right? Yeah. Their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke. Is that crack? They bond over meth.

Oh, it's meth. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don't know drugs. Embarrassing. God. Caitlin.

How do you live in LA and you don't know meth? I don't know drugs. Embarrassing. Oh, God. Caitlin. How do you live in L.A. and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square. It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing L.A. is known for. So that happens. And then Cindy also fixes Dinah's smudgy makeup. So it's like maybe they're starting to be sort of friendly toward

each other the makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until she cried it off uh-huh correct it's very sweet it is it is like that it ends up being a very tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too where it's just like things are like happening happening happening it's a romp we're going from place to place very quickly and then every once in a while you get like to really hang somewhere and it's not always with the characters that you expect like i wasn't expecting a longer scene with cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom right but it just feels right and it like gives you a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together. You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. So then they head back toward donut time

to link up with Chester. Meanwhile- Are we going to talk about how terrible the show was? Oh, yeah. It's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes. No one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians,

relatable. We understand. We get it. Especially around like the holidays in LA. And if you're like still doing shows, you're just like, there's four lonely people and they're so into it. And then other than that,

there's no one. And you're just like, you know what I wish they had done? I wish that in the middle of her song, they had turned on a blender. Someone started shaking a drink really hard. Every time. Every time someone orders a fucking daiquiri. Who's ordering a daiquiri?

Who? And whoever it is then is like heckling from the back you're just like god right yeah and then we find out that she had to basically like pay to get stage time also relatable we've all been there we've all i definitely have paid five dollars to participate in an open mic before yeah but it's it's an audition caitlin right it's valuable you're being charged in experience there i i thought alexandra's performance was lovely i was yeah it was really sweet and really nice and i was just i don't know yeah it's just like a holiday time show feel where you're just like be so nice if there were people here.

Okay, so then, so they're heading back toward donut time. Meanwhile, Razmik is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he missed them at Hamburger Mary's. So he asks their friends where they might be. And then he also heads toward donut time. But he lied to his family. He lied to his family. He said he had to go to work. Yes.

Right. His mother-in-law is suspicious. So she gets in another cab and hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra and Dinah arrive at Donut Time. And Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet on screen for the first time, about cheating on her with Dinah. Chester's all like, no, Cindy, I love you. You are my fiance. And everyone's like, wait a minute.

What? You're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time. Yes. Right. Yep. And then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah. And just then Razmik shows up because he wants to spend time with Cindy. But right then his mother-in-law also shows up and she realizes what Razmik has been getting into this whole time. So there's a lot of yelling. And then she calls her daughter, Razmik's wife, and she shows up. And then there's more yelling. And this poor woman who owns the donut shop is just like, why does this keep happening to me? She keeps threatening to call the cops, which again would have in real life resulted in...

Everyone dying. Yeah. Probably. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up. Yeah, that's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency. Okay, we'll be there in six hours.

But anyway, so Razmik's wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife has to look the other way. Because he is the sole breadwinner. Breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call me down here? I know this already. Trying to pretend this isn't happy now you have to embarrass everybody right but anyway so it seems like

everything's gonna be okay after all this chaos has just erupted but then chester is like wait a minute alexandra is the one who told you that i was cheating cindy well did she mention that she and i had sex and then c then Cindy is devastated that her best friend would betray her like that. So she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's not having any of it. And then she tries to go to work, but some awful bastards throw a cup of urine on Cindy. And then Alexandra runs over and helps her get cleaned up they go to a laundromat they she knows she washes her off uh and then she gives cindy her hair and then they make up and that's the end of their night and the end of the movie why is chester the what why can

can no one do better than chester? I don't understand. Yes, zero redeemable qualities. Because you see these women knowing their worth a lot. Throughout the whole movie, they're like, no, you have to give me more money. I'm not doing that. There's a lot of them knowing their worth. I feel like not to defend Chester, and I'm not defending Chester,

but there's a lot of strong women who know their worth who are inevitably, like kind of inexplicably with a Chester. Drawn to 40-year-old dudes who still have skateboards. Right, and you're just like, okay, so this is just,

this is, there's something that, you know, like Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's, you know, everyone hasy hasn't unpacked where she's you know everyone has a uh i i have a certain kind of shitty guy that i'm you have a chest too i have a child it's not the chester type but i have my chesters you know i've had my share of chesters sure among us hasn't had a chester or two. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss the film. Cool.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? Like you miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career

without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it.

I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt

Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I gotta hawk this slalom, Luge. Not hawk the slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous.

Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. So... Where do you begin? There's so much uh so many wonderful things to talk about does it make sense to get into some of the context in terms of like the production and development of this movie sure thing first yeah so so i think that the surprising thing for me because again when i was watching this movie the first time I didn't do research on the director

I was just watching it to enjoy it but the director and uh one of the two credited writers on this movie is a director Sean Baker who is like a white guy who went to NYU which I don't know what I was expecting but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to NYU, which I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to NYU. And so I think that that is like, that's worth discussing here, because I think that this movie is, is and is considered a step forward in trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films let's say and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have been made if mark duplass hadn't gotten involved and if this guy sean baker hadn't directed it so he made movies before i think this was his first like big really

popular movie and then he went on to he also made uh the florida project right but same same writing team same director and same font on the poster even same yeah i didn't even think of that so i mean it's it's nothing i mean i don't know of anything negative about sean baker but i do think that that is something that has come up on our show before where um sometimes in movies that are like pushing forward in some ways you still have a lot of the old guard let's say behind the camera which kind of which sucks like you i mean ideally there should be more black directors being able to direct black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need for a white guy who went to NYU really involved at all. I think in this case, a beautiful movie was was turned out by it. But that kind of gets into what we were talking about a bit at the top of

the show which is the writing process and once you find out that like a duplass brother is involved the writing style kind of all comes together you're like okay so both of them yeah you're like okay so this movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written because that's a very like Duplass Brothers, they're the mumblecore kings, whatever. And it seems like this movie had a very similar approach to writing. at the time that the movie was coming out was that Sean Baker did not, wasn't ingratiated in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He was just kind of a guy who made movies and was looking for stories to tell

and lived in West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community. He was aware of the trans community, but he, you know, obviously, he didn't have any experience there himself. And so he started to talk with the two women who eventually starred in this movie, Kitana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor. And through, Caitlin, you were saying this earlier, but through talking with them, getting to know them,

spending time with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right to tell through talking with them. And like you were saying, a lot of the major plot points in this movie are based on the experiences that either they or their friends had had. Right, because they are both former sex workers. They are both trans women. They very much lived this experience that their characters are depicting in the movie, which on one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters played by trans actors, which is unfortunately, historically in Hollywood, pretty rare. Eddie Redmayne.

I feel like he still hasn't had to answer for that. Oh, for the Danish girl? Yeah. And the fact that, yeah, I mean, they are black trans women. They have this experience of being former sex workers. It's their kind of real life story that's being told through this movie that again was, as far as accredited writers go, is these two cis white men. Yeah.

It's a really long way of getting to the fact that Kiki and Maya should, based on everything I've read and seen about this movie, they should be credited as writers of this movie just as much if not more so than sean baker and chris berg bergach not sure how to say it yeah question mark who's this chris guy who is there's no wikipedia link for him so we may never know but this is also in addition to like again major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences yeah um i also read that a lot of the dialogue that was written into the script got basically altered improvised adapted to be more authentic to be more authentic right so it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue i could tell that chester's lines were 100 written yeah by a straight cis white dude like that that was written on a fucking macbook pro those lines

right there 100 going on yeah it is it's true and i feel like yeah when you when you know that going into watching the movie the viewing experience is it's true and i feel like yeah when you when you know that going into watching the movie the viewing experience is it's still a wonderful movie but it's a little different because you can you can hear those written scenes in there like under this like very authentic like natural feeling dialogue from kiki and maya and i was also saying reading and and hearing in the interviews that they gave around this, that Kiki and Maya were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker and pushing to make the movie funny and to make it a romp. They're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah.

For sure. Like their line readings were ridiculous. Yeah. It's hilarious. So perfect. their line readings were ridiculous yeah it's hilarious so perfect and it seems like and i think that a tendency a lot for white filmmakers telling non-white stories is to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy and even though there are sad things that happen inside of this movie it doesn't feel like a weighed down tragic story.

And that sounds, based on all the interviews, it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and Maya pushing for that. So I cannot find a reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not credited as writers on this movie. To speak to that a little more um this is a quote from an article in the guardian where it says quote the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more downbeat and dramatic had rodriguez not put her foot down looking back he realized how right she. She was asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream audiences in

a pop culture way so that they could identify with them, end quote. So then pay her for that. Like, it's just so, oh, it's so annoying when people pull this shit and continue to pull this shit because, yeah, I mean, it seems like they wrote more of the story than he did i know he's like eventually i realized that you know she was kind of right about like how the story that she basically uh created should be told you know like she had she had good instincts i guess and he's like yeah i'll put my name on that. Sure. You're just like, Jesus Christ. And it's so many things at once.

Because I just like, it's frustrating. Because it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker is a bad person. And I think that he made a lovely movie. But it just doesn't seem like Kiki maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence and work that they did and had over this movie so yeah the actors made it totally and yeah especially because like a writing credit would have meant that they got more money they would have been paid more and yeah and things like that they could have been nominated for writing awards like they're uh another thing that this movie i think was like considered as like a milestone that

tangerine pushed forward was some of the first um the oscars suck so of course they slept on it but um some of the first like acting nominations for trans women were because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, there, there is a lot of, if not first, some of the best in, in recent memory progress for, for representation, but it's still just the fact that at the end of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating. And it's like, I wish I could say I were surprised.

I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this, though, because the budget was $100,000. Yeah. Boy. They shot it on three 5Ss. Okay. Right. iPhone 5Ss. Yeah. And they edited it.

And I think just like i movie probably no no it was it was super i mean it seems like they used equipment that they already had to make it but even that aside it's like they still have a whole crew they have there's a lot of performers in this movie and you have to imagine they're not making a ton of money to do it and it's like mark duplass you have money yeah come on mark sir in any case yeah well something that has been coming up for us a lot is we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be inclusive in their writing. And we've been saying again, this more often more recently, but, you know, we were not saying that a white cis man couldn't make a great movie about black trans sex workers because we saw that they did that did happen and um i have a quote here from another article entitled what tangerine taught hollywood about how to tell trans stories from the publication them quote to craft a story about a world with which they had little experience director sean baker and his writing

partner chris berger um knew when to ask for help right away the humility demonstrated by baker and berger in copping to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject up front is essential for any cis filmmaker who wants to incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. I'll end the quote there and we'll post this article because I think the whole thing is worth reading. But that's what we always say, like do your homework. You can represent communities responsibly, even if you do not belong to that community. It is going to be much harder for you and it will take a lot more homework. But I guess, and I don't want to sound like

I'm giving these guys too much credit, but the bottom line is, yeah, definitely, that these two actors, the lead actors in this movie, should have been given far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie way more than they were. Yeah. I mean, it's like if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important.

But you also need to like give credit where credit is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is also something that you do financially. And it's something you do by like using your own influence to continue to like provide a platform and provide like it's just I Sean Baker is more on the right track than I think a lot of cis white guys are. But it's still the fact that I'm just like they should have been paid more. They should have been credited more. And because like this movie was nominated for a lot of behind the scenes stuff too and and and they should have you know

gotten a a cut of that as well so yeah oh yeah yay what have they done after this uh not too much, unfortunately. This is Kiki Rodriguez's only film credit. And Maya has been in a few other things, but mostly short films. And then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Liu and Adrienne Grenier. So she's working, but Kiki isn't as much. And I feel like that's something too. It's the fact that Sean Baker, you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a springboard

and go on to make the Florida Project, a movie that, I mean, I haven't seen it. I know it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget and a movie like he was able to leverage tangerine into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women whose story he was literally telling with tangerine and did they get left behind in,

in an unfair way? And, and meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience, however, well told as a springboard for his own career. Right. Yeah. Yuck. Um, experience however well told as a springboard for his own career right yeah yuck um this is a good time to cut to our next segment with another one of our special guests she is a stand-up and improv comic a dungeon master and sometimes freestyle rapper it's

violet gray hello hello thank you so much for having me oh thank you for being here so more or less we just wanted to hear your thoughts specifically on the representation of black trans women in the movie tangerine sure so i was just telling my partner that my position on this has evolved quite a bit because if you had asked me 15 years ago what i thought of the representation of black trans women in the movie tangerine i would have talked about this uh uncomfortable consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as like drug addicted prostitutes but since then in the last 15 years or so I've really evolved on what it means to be a sex worker and what it means to have addiction and I would say there's nothing wrong there's nothing shameful about being in the sex

industry and one thing i did like is that i mean there was a scene where they're using drugs they're smoking crack yeah and it didn't happen until much later in the movie. And I thought that was good because it established them as humans first. They're not drug addicts. They're humans who do drugs. And it took them out of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood that that environment is some people's realities. I was thankful that they were humanized the way they did. I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me of myself. So there's a scene where Cindy is in the subway train and she is looking out of the window, I don't think a lot of people realize that if you're a trans person, that can be a sort of defense mechanism because you're pretty much locked in

a box with complete strangers for a while. And when you're looking out the window, they can't see your face and they can't see your features. Yeah. So I guess that there's something to be said about how Black trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is a conversation there. Sure. But I also think that, hey, sex workers and people who have substance abuse issues are humans too absolutely and i think ultimately this movie was more about friendship and adversity than any of that definitely to speak to the um so i was just talking about how just last night at the time of this recording this documentary just came out on net but the doc disclosure that Laverne Cox among many other people executive produced they touch on this specific thing in the documentary about how the representation of black trans women especially

in media that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately. And there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many Black trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out, there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate for Black trans women is very high because of discrimination. And many Black trans women have no choice but to turn to sex work because no one will give them a job. Absolutely. Yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge any of the systemic reasons why Black trans women might be sex workers. And's just like well that's just what black trans women be and yeah right right as if when everyone was going to elementary school and one person wanted to be a police officer and the other person wanted to be yeah yeah no no little kid is in it

and uh when people want to know about intersectionality, Black trans women are my go-to example, because it is the intersection of being a person of color and being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think that a lot of people, especially people who push this personal responsibility narrative, as if it's a false dichotomy, it's an either or, you're either taking personal responsibility for your situation, or you're blaming external factors, as if external factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for your your current situation whatever that situation may be but yes i think what most minority groups need above anything else in film representation is to be humanized right and i think that tangerine did do a good job of that amazing yeah i'm also curious of um going off of tangerine a

little bit what would you like to see more of in terms of representation what is um something that you would like to see more of that that isn't quite i don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet as far as black trans women yes or just in general oh as far as Black trans women? Yes. Or just in general? Oh, as far as Black, okay. So one of my favorite sci-fi books, and one of the stories that I point to as one of the best representation of a trans person, is a book called The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin. Okay.

And there's a trans character in there who you don't find out is trans until two-thirds of the way through the book. But until then, mostly what you know about her is that she's this sort of terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this thing in it, we could do this thing. And she comes from a well-to-do family, but she is pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because she was supposed to be the man of the house who was supposed to marry well. And she's like, well, I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't be what you need me to be. And so I really liked a story where

a trans person, her transness is not her defining trait, but at the same time, it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. Sure. sure right so when you're saying like what would i like to see more of i would like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness without it being the defining trait for sure yeah that's a balance that it seems like hollywood at least even though slow and slight progress is being made in terms of trans representation in hollywood it seems like still so many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever are still very much contingent on well this is a trans person and that's the thing we know about them right yes that there was a controversy about a video game i believe it was one of the balder's gate or icewind dale games okay and um there was

a trans character and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans person disclosed their transness their trans status they mention it in like the opening sentence of meeting the character the main character so it would be the equivalent of going up to someone who's like hi uh Caitlin nice to meet you I'm trans so anyway um and so yes yes and so they were like you know yes there is something to be said for uh it's evolving is the point that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters in games now that aren't so in your face. But it's like, do you remember Atari? Yes.

Remember how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation 5 is coming out and it looks damn near like real people i think dialogues have sort of the same progression i like this metaphor i know it's like this is this is good shit uh yeah yeah i think that they're still figuring out and me being having gothic tendencies i don't usually lean toward optimism but But I think that I think that they're, they're working it out. media and how for decades and decades it was all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals as well as culture at large, and how it's really only been in the past, like, five years yeah that there's been any kind of headway made in terms of progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people in popular media i think that once the internet came out once we had the internet, it was a wrap because knowledge is the bane of ignorance.

And now with the internet, we can just know things at such a rapid pace. A lot of people can know a thing very quickly. And so I don't really think that there would be a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate or black lives matter or trans issues without the information age that we now live in totally and we would i mean we what we were talking about in the episode was it's it seems like tangerine is a good step in the right direction but i hope in a couple years we're at a point where it's like a sci-fi story with a trans protagonist. That would be fucking incredible. Right. Absolutely.

Just like you were saying, just, you know, centering the story on a trans character in a way that isn't like, and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no, we're in a sci-fi world with a trans character. Right. Absolutely. in a sci-fi world with a trans character right absolutely yeah the normalization is still something we need to normalize if that makes any sense yes yes wow really makes you think i mean it's it's a process but uh it's something we'll just have to keep working on until we do it. Because I remember watching a documentary on the representation of Black people on the screen back when they were Black and white movies. And there was a time when if a Black person was on the screen for a couple of seconds, Black families would call out to everyone in the house and say, look, a Black person on TV. And they would all run to the TV to watch the Black person on TV.

And this was before, say, Living Single or The Cosby Show or What's Happening or Family Matters. And so, yeah, I think most groups probably, when it comes to representation, go through this process. As we talk about on the show often, representation will kind of come in waves or there will be stages to it where, first of all, any marginalized group will be more or less just erased pretend that they don't exist in media absolutely then there will be an acknowledgement of their existence and an inclusion of it on screen but that that representation will be horrifying racist transphobic you know all yeah just like really damaging and then when we when you know enough people realize that that's not good then there will be more progress to something and then and then that's when even is like that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like okay we are going to center this story

on black trans women in an authentic way the director is still some random white guy who went to NYU but you know it's like the story is still not like given to the people who who need to be telling it yes so it's like a step like inching inching inching forward yeah a lot of people don't know that the writers for good times were all white oh wow yeah to begin with yeah and so yeah yeah that is definitely a process that uh it was the source of some tension between the actors and the writers sometimes i'd imagine so yeah yeah yes but yeah it is it is part of the uh the evolution. Something that I think most of us believe in. Yes. Yes.

But yes, I keep, but, but yeah, I do think it is, it is one of the things that is part of the normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation.

And then small stepping stones. And then someday, hopefully very soon, we have just no one could take any issues with the representation that we see, because it's at a place where it's positive and good. And yeah, a sci fi expanded universe. Right. And that will come with trans people being the ones to tell their own stories absolutely absolutely i look forward to the day when when the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche right and and not because she's like a weird tropey right murderer yeah um do you have any other thoughts any other things you'd like to share in terms of tangerine specifically or representation in general one thing that i thought was particularly poignant about tangerine and i think this is true of many minority groups, but I think trans women and trans women of color in particular

is so toward the very end, she found out that her best friend cheated with her boyfriend and she was like too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry. And she's trying to walk away. And then she's a victim of this hate crime. Yeah. And then Alexandra takes her to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her her wig, which is wow, which is a major gesture and one thing i thought was very poignant was about how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because they have to because the re at the end of the day the rest of the world is against marginalized people and um i thought that it ended on a note that expressed the value of sticking together

and being there for each other. I love that. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. Give us your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you and your oh sure on instagram i'm chaotic violet you get to see all my weird

renaissance fair costumes and on twitter i'm violet silver and this monday'm going to be on the Butterboy Comedy Zoom show. Yeah. With Aparna Nancherla, Ron Funches, Judah Friedlander. Amazing. Yeah. That is where you can find me. Oh, Violet Gray on YouTube. And yeah, that's it.

Incredible. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yes. Wonderful. Yay.

Let's take a quick break and then we'll be back for more. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption

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I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song?

Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.

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your podcasts. We're back. We're back. And another thing that I love how this movie like toes the line of you you so often see like characters defined by their own trauma like i think that that's a lot of like when cishet white guys are writing outside of their own experience and when like a lot of like when any writer is writing outside of their own experience, I feel like it is a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone by their trauma.

And I think this movie, for the most part, toes the line really well of portraying that there are very, very real struggles that these characters are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put in jail, it seems like, for not a good reason. And the kind of looming presence of the cops that never fully explodes, but is always there.

Like you see the unfair shit that they have to deal with, but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that defines them. What defines the story is how you know it is primarily like alexandra and cindy's friendship which is so like fun to see and that that's a whole journey as well and yeah for sure i it's also i mean the characters, many of them are not, I guess for lack of a better term, woke. Like, there's slurs that I know. There's, you know, there's reductive and offensive name calling that gets thrown around. There's, I mean, a large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent toward another woman and not holding Chester

accountable enough, perhaps for cheating and really in targeting the other woman, you know, which is a thing that always, you know, dings our little bell. But at the same time, like I,

I give all of that a pass just because again, that, that these characters feel so I'm like, yes, that would probably happen. And of course this and dina is such an dina i mean and she she has her own like sub story as well but like when you meet dina she's such an antagonistic asshole like you know it it doesn't necessarily justify the violence against

her but i also it's like i don don't know. Cindy is already upset. Dinah does not approach the situation in a way that is remotely, like, cool or calm or anything. And so I feel like it's justified in story of, like, you know, particularly when you first meet her before you get those, like, more tender moments and you get more context for her. You're like, oh, I get why cindy is like pissed at at at this lady but also as as shitty as all the the men are in the

movie the cis men you you never really get the feeling that any of the women are actually threatened by them though in real life that might not be the case um in in the film you don't you don't get that impression right that's true i guess yeah with alexandra's um client early on where he only has 40 bucks and he's like trying to shortchange her and and like she's she has none of it and it ends up like it, the situation flares up, but eventually it's fine. And she has control of the situation. She gets her 40 bucks,

right? At least I forget. I don't think she ever does. She not because the cops interfere. Oh, right. Fuck. Yeah.

But then she, she does meet up with resume who gives her money, but resume is also, um, it's complicated. Yeah. But then she does meet up with Razmik, who gives her money. But Razmik is also... It's complicated. Yeah, but that's, I mean, right. And then also, like, I wanted to mention that even though Cindy is literally dragging Dinah by her hair and being violent toward her and all this stuff. I can't speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she as a black trans woman would feel very betrayed by Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I get it. Like, I'm not necessarily

pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, maybe I am. I totally was. Yeah, if anyone's gonna do it it should be her you know it feels like it's not it's not really abusive yeah she's just she was betrayed they were having fun

they smoke meth together it's fine it's different rules it's like not to excuse It just looks like they're having fun. They smoke meth together. It's fine. It is. It's different rules. It's so funny because it's like not to excuse a kidnapping, but it seems like a pretty light kidnapping. Because by the time they're on the bus,

even Dinah is kind of joking about it. She's like, oh, can I pick up my hair tie? Is that okay? I'm still your captive, but can I put my hair back and sandy's like yeah fine whatever and it's like oh okay this is a very friendly kidnapping they go to a show together they you know it's um yeah when they went to the bar and the door guy said she's she's only got one shoe she said she's from the hills she's a hillbilly. And the door guy's just like, sure, fine, whatever. Great.

Yeah. I mean, I keep having to remind myself that like these are people whose survival instinct and just like survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs to be because of my privilege. Like, I don't need to be out on the streets where the risk of danger and violence against me is much greater. So I have to like remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another woman out onto the street by her hair, like I am not put in danger every day also the stakes are a little higher when you consider that going back to jail for either of these women most likely means being put in a jail with men right very true absolutely i think that yeah and and the fact that even though they're not credited as writing it

the fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from their own experiences you know they're presenting true experiences and they're presenting it in a way that is very fun to watch and I mean yeah that's why the movie's good like it's

it's because of them and their performances and their input and their lived experiences that get adapted to the screen. Like, yeah, that's why this movie was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if we had just let Sean and Chris... It would be so depressing. Like, yeah, guess their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah would be they would have gotten it so wrong like it would have been Requiem for a Dream with a song exactly like it would have just and and so yeah I everything in this movie that it just that you're

just like oh I don't is but it's like it's there. They're telling their own story in an authentic way. And it's based on true experiences. And it's just like, OK, that it is what it is. Like they're telling their story. Now is a good time to cut to our next segment with another special guest. She is a comedian, a writer for the Portland Mercury. She's an associate producer of the Portland Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dahlia Bell.

Yay! Hi! Welcome! Thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Of course, of course. we just wanted to hear your thoughts on the representation of Black trans women in the movie Tangerine specifically. And then if you had any other thoughts on trans representation, Black trans representation, the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah. So to be entirely honest, I did have to go back and watch the movie uh about two nights ago and yeah it did not rub me well i will say that and i really had to do

some personal soul searching sure because you know initially'm like, am I so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans woman as sex workers? And I thought about that and no, I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends are full service sex workers. So I like, no, that's not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use? play a role in both trans culture and the broader queer culture, simply being stuck in situations where we're trying to find ourselves. And in many cases, I've been a pro-drug advocate. However, the representation I feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar tropes that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women are guilty of.

For example, the image of... So first, I do want to commend the movie for casting what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women, as opposed to even a program I love, like Pose, where you have the obviously over glamorized mythos that people want to see. But all the same, I feel it's a very messy image of trans sex workers. it kind of paints us as buffoons sort of the old step and fetch it tradition yeah then the trope of you know fighting over the affection of some ne'er-do-well cis male you know yeah exactly like why is that always our ultimate prize you know like chester surely there's nothing else that trans women could possibly want than some random cis loser and that is putting it nicely honestly like chester chester sucks, he's garbage.

I mean, I speak only for myself, but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of especially contemporary trans women when I say many of us do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles or ways of being or identities because our experiences with cis men are so negative. And at a certain point, you have to be like, is this worth my time? Is this something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never really raised in any depiction of trans women that i have ever seen there's always this element of us longing for the affection of this class i i don't know why yeah i totally see your point. I've seen this movie a few times now. I love it. I think it's such a fun romp.

And of course, I'm coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming at it with blind spots with our backgrounds. So I hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of buffoonery that is arguably displayed i always sort of interpreted that as oh but they're fun and they're they're just you know they're goofy and we're seeing like rather than a tragic story which is how many trans narratives play out we're seeing a fun a fun romp so that was like always my kind of like right you know just interpretation of that yeah um but i totally see your point and i had to look at that you know numerous times because is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would be very problematic as well. But I think for me, it's a matter of looking

at that intersection of black heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation. And when you really look at the Venn diagram of that, I think there are some issues raised. We've been talking a lot about how, I mean, the fact that the movie is written and directed by cis white guys as well likely factors into a lot of what's going on within the movie

that maybe doesn't match up quite well and how um the two lead actresses in this movie uh were not credited as writers even though they had a huge influence on what happened in in the story and then ultimately all the credit going back to you know the the tish grad um is oh exhausting so that was the first time you had seen it is that right is that right yeah yeah yeah and it was interesting because my partner who's also non-binary trans they're gender fluid though but it was their second or third time seeing it and they're more a fan of like queer cinema uh-huh uh so we've they've been like taking me on this tour of of all the the queer classics sure and you know kind of realizing some holes and blind spots in a lot of the films that a lot of us felt were formative, you know,

just because at that time, the people that were in the writing room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the people in the writing rooms who are part of the community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative. That makes that makes a ton of sense. We hadn't even come at it from that angle. That makes a ton of sense. Is there any I mean, not to we don't want to put you on the spot. But what would you like to see more from in terms of trans representation in film in general and black trans representation? Yeah, I guess what I would really like to see would be, I guess, the happy medium, you know, the happy medium, even if we're going to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I get why that trope is still useful.

But even if we're going to do that, i would like it to be maybe a happy medium between say tangerine and pose where you have these realistic average looking perhaps quote unquote non-passable trans sex workers who are empowered not necessarily, not necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or, you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but actually flourishing, thriving, maybe a montage sort of show where maybe you have the trans call girl and then you have the trans call girl, and then you have the trans businesswoman, and, you know, the trans, whatever this dude does, he's a tailor, maybe, you know, just allow us to be human beings, and not just the sort of trope, either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity yeah or sexualization things of that sort absolutely yeah and as we've been discussing you know representation is often unless it's

representation of like uh cishet white wealthy men who there's an abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talk about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It goes from erasure to negative representation to steps in the right direction to positive representation. And it feels like we're still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase in terms of trans representation in film and TV. And Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the right direction,

but maybe not what we want to see ideally, especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit for writing the script and things like that are white cis men telling the story of black trans women yeah i don't know would you would you agree with that assessment that you know tangerine's a step in the right direction i i think it will definitely be uh included in the canon long term you know i think tyler perry still has his place within black cinema that doesn't mean i'm going to necessarily watch a tyler perry movie on purpose um medea isn't your favorite yeah yeah

you see you have to spring tyler perry on someone you have to be like you have to walk in the room and it's already been on for 45 minutes. And you're like, all right. What are we watching? Is this? It's too late. Any other thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep friends.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. This been so wonderful um thank you give us your your plugs where can people follow you online anything you'd like to plug oh yeah well i'm gonna behave um so uh i think one of the more fun places to follow me is on instagram at mix.dahliabell, mix being an X, dahliabell. You could also follow me on Facebook at dahlia.dahliabell or mix.dahliabell. One is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram. This is way too long of an explanation. I should have explained I haven't-

No, keep going. We wanna follow you everywhere okay if you follow my personal facebook page it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that i experience every morning around 2 a.m of course but my instagram are really cute pictures of me so that that's really where you should go what a great balance though of depending on the vibes that you're seeking there's always there's a lot of options there's always dahlia bell thank you so much thank you so much again thank you you were wonderful have a good day

yay thanks again dahlia and now we're back with Kai Choice. Does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings? Feelings? Yeah, talk to us about your feelings, Kai. So I just think everyone should know that if you got to go to Donut Time, you're very lucky. They actually have really good donuts there but it later became a trejo's tacos and then it became a trejo's donuts and now it it might be nothing soon i don't know i don't think it's doing very well oh no i could be wrong but i just i don't

see people there ever i haven't either i know i passed there a couple days ago knowing that we were going to watch this movie i was like oh god damn seven years seven years makes all the difference i feel like a lot of a lot of stories that portray sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency from the characters and to kind of denigrate the experience and you don't see that happening here right in every situation the women seem to be very in control of the situation regardless of whether or not that is always the case in real life for sure with these characters like even with with resmeek you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women.

And the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up it ends up, you know, getting the shit kicked out of backfiring on him. Yeah. Right. Which is for sure. Karma, baby. Yeah. And that the the story I mean, the story covers a lot of ground, but every character gets a full arc and the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between cindy and alexandra and like i just it's really fun to see especially like a female friendship that you see have ups and downs and it's not just like a perfectly written like we're best friends we always get get along. Everything's great. La la la. It's like they disagree with each other every other second, but there is such a clear bond.

Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry as performers that it just like, it just holds the movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot picture two different performers in this movie like they make the movie I mean they're like good friends in real life too yes yeah before they were cast yep yeah I feel like the iPhones got more more air time than they needed to in this like people talked about the iPhones more than they talked about Maya and Kiki is we gotta we gotta turn that around another thing kind of to piggyback on um what you were saying just a moment ago Kai is the way sex work is often portrayed in movies and media another thing it will do I think it's like a

plot device it's treated as like a plot device that a character needs to overcome. Right. A life that the characters are trying desperately to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but that isn't really a component of this movie, at least not on the day that we see these characters. But then another thing is, I think that sex workers will often be characterized in such a way that they are shown as having like no moral compass almost, or they wouldn't care. Like sex means nothing to them or they don't, they can't form real human relationships. So they, they would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or,

you know, anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on just yeah another thing that humanizes these characters and this movie also does a a thing that's kind of subtle but every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker characters tell a story like from their childhood like there there's one little anecdote where Alexandra is like,

Oh, I had a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub. And then I think maybe she's like the madam of the party room, but she says something like, yeah, me and my sister would always like, I would not describe that woman as a madam. Is that what it says on her LinkedIn? Like I like it. i don't know exactly what

the best terminology is but i love the embellished credits this is great fancy she um she says something like yeah me and my sister would go to these dances when we were kids and we're supposed to bring a boy but i could never find boys so I would take I had to go dance with my sister and it was just like stories of them like and it's like yes like sex workers used to be children they have interiority they have feelings they have jealousy they have other like the whole range of emotions that's a trick right that's a trick they say if you're ever kidnapped by a serial killer you should tell them a story involving your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself to a complete stranger.

Is that true? Does that work? Because everyone can relate to being a kid. Supposedly, it works much better than screaming, let me go. So in this case, the movie is the kidnapped and we are the serial killers. It's true though it's i feel like a common misstep in movies in general is just um when you're trying to subvert a narrative

the the message is more like i'm not like the other girls i'm like this but what this movie does is just say these are these characters they're like this. But what this movie does is just say, these are these characters. They're like this. The movie is not comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is a night in the life of these characters. Like, take it or leave it. And it seems like everyone wanted to take it.

My cat is meowing so loud. Someone's cat? She's so cute. I know. Aw, Flea. I wanted to really quickly touch on Resmeek Cat. She's so cute. Flee. I wanted to really quickly touch on Resmeek and his family.

Resmeek is not the central character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to just bring up because he is an Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see them represented.

And I did a little bit of research on this because, I mean, you do get, this movie does such a great job of giving every character, like, an interior life. And so for Razmik, he's dealing with his mother-in-law. You know, he's perhaps misrepresenting how he spends his time to his family. We're not exactly sure. But we see that he has a home life. We see that he has his own interior struggles. And that is not something that is usually lent to an Armenian character

because Armenian characters, I did a little research just to kind of confirm. I was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've seen in pop culture really at all. And representation for Armenian people, Kardashians aside, is extremely low. Most of the examples you'll find are on TV, and they're usually characterized rather violently. You'll see Armenian characters often pop up on shows like The Sopranos as mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters. When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a very particular way. And so, again, Razmik and his family are not the center of the

movie. But I do think it's like many things this movie does. It is a step in the right direction. Because I mean, in movies about LA in general, you are seeing one zip code in a gigantic city. Like you're seeing Beverly Hills, usually, yeah, the class warfare zip code and it is a gigantic and many parts of it are are wonderful and cool and but you don't get to see most of those parts and so I thought it was really nice to see an Armenian family represented and I sincerely hope that um that continues to happen moving forward and we get to see all sorts of armenian characters i would have loved to see more of resmik's wife um his wife no she does she does have a name uh her name is eva uh but i would have loved to see more of her

and like so yeah that's a yet another thing that this movie does that most movies about los angeles do not i agree and uh to our armenian listeners um if you have any other examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of armenian people let us know because we'd like to check those out yeah and refer us to uh works and characters that that are that are worth covering we're we're always listening but yeah there there have been some pieces written in the past several years about how extremely limited there's one character on the sopranos there's a series of characters on the shield okay there's a character on weeds and then there's the kardashians end of list yeah um so we do need more armenian representation as well yes um does tangerine

pass the bechdel test for sure lots lots and lots between a bunch of different between all sorts of pairings of characters and again the main like like we've said the relationship that's really at the core of this movie is the friendship between cindy and alexandra and they talk all the time about and sure they're talking about chester sometimes but other times they're talking about fish they're talking about dina they're talking about like alexander's performance and singing and you know all all kinds of stuff dina and cindy talk at length as well uh there is conversation between resmeek's um wife and her her mother that is usually concerning him, but there are a few line exchanges that don't,

and they concern their daughter. And there's a lot of, this movie passes a whole bunch. For sure. All that to say, yeah. Also another rare example of a movie that passes the Vito Russo test, passes the DuVernay test. The Vito Russo test, it basically examinesay test. The Vito Russo test,

it basically examines if there are any queer characters in the movie at all. And if removing them would impact the plot at all, basically they have to be essential to the story and they can't be, they can not only be identified by their queerness. They have to have like other characteristics and interiority so okay this movie very handily passes that test uh like i said the duvernay test um kind of all of them it really hits all the marks as far as our nipple scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its representation of women and also part of me wants to kind of retool

our nipple scale a bit i know but i think it would behoove us to kind of just reword it or like retool it a bit to it being more about like how does this movie fare from an intersectional feminist point of view totally yeah that makes so either way uh looking at it from either version of our nipple scale um it gets pretty top marks i think i'm going to give it a 4.5 the fact that it is a what i think is a good step in the right direction of trans representation black trans representation specifically also we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro-Latina, which is another representation we often don't get in media in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot of things very well,

as we've discussed the humanization of sex workers and sex work and the focus on the friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And the fact that a story, again, a story about black trans sex workers is fodder for like tragedy porn. And that's not what this movie was at all. It was a fun romp. Many genres in one. Yeah. I loved all those things. I love this movie.

I'm going to watch it every Christmas. And also. This is the Christmas movie. Right. Boom. Yeah. So where it gets taken off for me is, again, this idea of, well, the only way we're going to be allowed to learn about trans people or hear their stories is through the lens of cis white men at this moment in history.

You know, this should have been a movie made by trans filmmakers. So a step, a step. So, yeah, 4.5. And I will give a split my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Cool. Yeah, I was going to go, I think, a 4.25 on this movie. I feel weird marking it much higher because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going for it in terms of representation, I do still feel like I always get a bit of like a,

when you look up the director and you find out, okay, this is, and something that bugs me that we discussed a little bit as well is that the director goes on to leverage the success of this movie into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does not involve any of the cast from Tangerine. And we haven't seen really many actors from this movie since even in that same director's work. And I do feel like particularly if you are an NYU guy who and I'm not saying that, you know, he didn't do a great job. I think he did. But I do feel like you you you cannot in good faith use to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like that is just right you can't you can't you can't um other than that i i do um agree with everything you said kitlyn i uh love the representation

of black trans women i love the friendship i love that it's a romp uh just there's it's so so so so funny um and i credit you know 90 of it to the lead actresses they're so so good and and also you know you get a representation of just a lot of los angeles that you normally wouldn't you have the picture of an armenian immigrant family you have their you know sex worker representation this movie's got everything uh so so yeah i'll go uh 4.25 uh i'll give two to cindy two to alexandra and one quarter to resmeek's baby oh oh i thought you're gonna say resasmus dog, but that's probably better. I would have given it to the dog. I mean, that's just me. Different people. Yes. How about you? I want to I want to say a four. And I would say the only reason I'm not giving it a five is because of the issues that you guys brought up. But also, because there was a little bit of a Tarantino ism going on here, where I think that anytime you guys brought up, but also because there was a little bit of a Tarantinoism going on here

where I think that any time you have white characters using the N-word to display how terrible of a person they are, it should at least, there should be a black person directing it or writing it or something, because by all appearances, they got that pass from whoever wrote the script. True. Which was not necessary. They were terrible enough as it went.

Yeah. Right. Totally. You could replace the N-word with a monster energy drink in the hand and, you know, we get the same impression. And we get it. We get it. Yeah.

Well, Kai, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun. It was nice to talk to you. Yeah. Good to see you. It was nice to talk to you. Yeah, good to see you. It's been a while.

Likewise. Where can people follow your stuff, check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill. It is a true crime comedy podcast. And the focus of each episode is a lady who is a murderer. So we don't talk about any dudes who rape and murder unless a lady who is a murderer. So we don't talk about any dudes who rape and murder unless they're part of a couple.

Which has only happened a couple of times. You can also find me on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's K-A-I-C-H-O-Y-C-E. And I mean, that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days. Maybe one day we'll be back to it. But otherwise, you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me being highly inappropriate on social media.

I really thoroughly enjoy your social media presence, if I may say. Thank you. Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtelcast. We've got a Patreon, aka Mat matreon it's five dollars a month it gets you two bonus episodes plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes and um you guys got to start using protagonista by the way yeah i'll give you that it's in you can have it. Thanks for tuning in. See you next time. Bye. Bye.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

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