The Bechdel Cast - The Accused with Sarah Marshall

Episode Date: October 22, 2026

This week, Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Sarah Marshall examine The Accused (1988) in conversation with the ongoing Cornell case and how survivors are treated by the justice system. Check out Sarah's podcast, You're Wrong About (and follow it on Instagram at @yourewrongaboutpod)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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looking at movies through an intersectional feminist lens. We have, we have an intense episode today. So I just want to mark it at the top of just some trigger warnings before we even get into the Bechdel test. We're talking about the accused today. It's a movie from 1988 that at least, well, we'll talk about it. I don't think is really talked about very much now. And I find it interesting. But it is a movie that directly covers the trial and fallout and depiction of a very brutal rape. So if you are not in a place to be hearing about that today, please be advised.

That's what we're getting into as well as I'm sure inevitably. some talk about the Cornell case, which is sort of why we're choosing to cover this movie when we're choosing to cover it. Yes. So, yeah, unpleasant. I don't know about you two, but I feel sick already. So if you are in a- I do not feel good.

So if you are in a place, you know, to deal with topics like that and you can find a cathartic, maybe this is the episode for you. And, yeah, hope you get something out of it. Yes. Anyways, let's get into, before we can get into the horrors of the world, Caitlin. Yes. What's the Bechtel test? I forget. I'll tell you.

It's a media metric created by a friend of the show, Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It is a media metric that has many different versions of it. The one that we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender have names. They speak to each other. and their conversation is about something other than a man. And ideally, it's a conversation that is narratively meaningful and not just throw away dialogue. And thankfully, today's movie does pass it handily, so we will not be harping on the fectal test today. Imagine if it didn't.

But, you know, when you see 1988 as the release date, you just never know. But yes, we have an incredible returning guest. her fifth appearance, which is the jacket tier of Bechtelcast guest, where we tell you we're going to get you a jacket and then we don't. And then we never do. And then we don't. You are going to get me a jacket. I'm going to come to your house and find one I like. Oh, sure.

Oh, yeah. I guess we didn't get specific about what the jacket was. I think we promised Keniz a specific jacket that never material. But you could just, yeah, come grab a jacket. Yeah. Yeah. Go shopping in my closet. You deserve it, girlie.

it's the amazing Sarah Marshall, a host of your wrong about. Hello. Amongst myriad other wonderful shows, she's an incredible writer. And the first person, I mean, I guess this is like, I don't know, let me know how you feel about this distinction. When we decided to do this episode, you were the first person I thought of. I was like, I just, I want to talk to Sarah about this movie. It, like, so overlaps with so much of what you talk about on, you're wrong about. and I also just love talking to you.

I was like, we have to choose a guest who we feel safe with. And that means so much to me. And I do, you know, I, yeah, I want to have that be my distinction here that we all feel all as comfortable as possible today here together because certainly I have no expertise here except, except I guess from like the sort of the pattern of talking on my show. about various women who had to defend their right to exist in the media and had the media descend on them in a huge way.

Yes. And this is one of those stories, you know, in a story from the 80s. And also one that as you're saying, I think this case and this movie, you know, were tremendously visible in the times that they happened and that we haven't returned to very much, which is interesting. Right. Yes. I was not familiar with either this movie prior to us kind of deciding to come.

it, nor the actual case that this movie is based on. Maybe if I was a little older and more alive in the 80s and not an infant when this was all happening, or I guess the case took place before I even existed. So maybe if the timeline was different, I would be more aware of it. But yeah, I was not familiar at all. It's also interesting to me to compare this, the case that inspired this movie to all. also something like the William Kennedy Smith trial, which was a rape trial that people were absolutely riveted by at the time that it was happening. And it also raised questions of how much

and whether to identify the victim. And, or, you know, if we want to be legalistic, I guess, the alleged victim in a trial like this that was getting so much media attention. And again, that's like a story that people don't reminisce about and have kind of taken out of maybe the collective memory of a period in an interesting way. Because you have something like the O.J. Simpson trial and no one ever really forgot about that one. But stories like this, you know, seem to have, yeah, been maybe a little bit repressed. And also, you know, Jody Foster won an Oscar for this movie.

I know that that was like, you know, even if it's not a movie we talk about very frequently, I feel like I'm at least, you know, most Oscar, like, winning. movies like that I am more aware of than I was aware of this movie. Same. Yeah. So I guess I'm, I guess for, for listeners and for Caitlin and Sarah, I'm like, there's so much we could talk about in this episode. I, I'm, I think correctly, assuming all of our listeners are aware of and to some extent

following the Cornell case. I don't think I want to get into that one specifically, but I think that the, I'm, the parallels are very clear. For sure. Between, I mean, I think that that's part of, I don't know, yeah, I guess I just wanted to do a vibe check at the top. Because I mean, I'm assuming I'm very much not alone here. I've been having a really horrible time recently with, I mean, but in a new way, I guess. And I'm curious if this like resonates where this is, unfortunately, the Cornell case is so familiar.

and so familiar that it is a story we have heard massively publicized within like the history of this podcast. Right. I've been thinking so much recently about, you know, obviously because we're about to go on our 10 year anniversary tour and how this moment shares very grim similarities to the Me Too movement. But I mean, and we've talked at length at the shortcomings of that. movement, which bear a lot of similarity to the shortcomings of most American feminist movements. But I think I did feel more hopeful and more energized at that time, that that was going somewhere and that the conversations that we would be having in 26 would not feel even worse than the ones we were having in 2017 and amongst other like personal stuff campus rape in particular but yeah I don't know yeah

vibe checking I know we're all doing bad but I'm just this this particular kind of like we've been here before yeah so historically recently and I feel worse can I tell you what it feels like to me and I ironically I am using a metaphor that involves a movie that had unsafe and traumatic working conditions for a woman. But the part in the Blair Witch Project where things have started to really get bad and they've been hiking for like 15 hours and they realize at the end of the day that they have come back to the same log over the same creek that they were at that morning and it's just like the exhaustion and the fear and the feeling of having like taken away from you even the

catharsis of having made one day's progress. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a very apt metaphor. And you're like, I gave you back the map, Heather. Just like take it. Yeah. That's, ooh.

Okay, Sarah's genius mode. We're 10 minutes in and Sarah's already gone genius mode. But it is like, but I bet, but you know, that I feel like I've been, I guess watch that movie again because it's, you know, October and that's the, you have to watch the Blair Witch Project in, and in, and in this house. And so that feeling of like exhaustion is like I think, yeah, what to me what comes to mind, right? Where it's like, oh my God. Like was all of that so that we could end up back in the exact same place?

Yeah. I guess luckily and unluckily a way in to talk about most of the things I've been feeling about the Cornell case through the lens of the accused because so little has changed. not just in the way that rape culture is so pervasive, but in the way that media presents rape culture because we always have to have a man who's redeemable and we always have to, you know, I've felt so frustrated by, and I know that there is value to this, and I am, you know, it's impossible to not bring your own shit to the table,

but how quickly we jumped to like, we need to talk about men, You know, it's like, no, I don't want, no. They're like, we need to figure out how, you know, it's again, once again on, I think what's really been kind of like lighting me up recently is, is because this is like not the first wave of this discourse that has happened on social media also specifically is that I'm seeing stories that I remember hearing and feeling, you know, like from peers, from, from, you you know, public figures from whomever, stories I remember hearing 10 years ago, seeing again repackaged and reposted. And it, like, I don't know, something about that really broke me because

I, it makes me feel so much for victim, survivors, whatever your chosen languages, that, like, we're being asked to once again, like, open the trauma suitcase and, like, doll it up in whatever way is most algorithmically friendly and be like, hey, do you give a fuck this time? And the answer is always no. No. I mean, and then the other side of that is, you know, you find community. You find, like, I mean, it's more complicated than that. But I don't know. Well, I think watching, I mean, you know, not to get too into the plot, but I feel like the sort of, one of the overwhelming feelings I had watching it was the sort of horror of, as we've been talking about, sort of being now where we were then, where we have been for much of recorded history,

where if a man or in this case a group of men rapes you and uses your body as something that they're bonding over by dehumanizing you, then you have to go prove, to another group of men that it happened, right? That the legal system is basically just like another group of guys in a bigger building. And how much that, you know, not totally hasn't changed, but has sort of changed and then changed back multiple times. And how we keep coming back to this bedrock and we're here now again. Well, I guess unless there's other, we can just get into our history with the movie.

Had either of you seen it before? Never saw it, was not familiar with it. Yeah, just watched it for the first time a couple days ago. I had seen bits of it on TV. Weirdly, my greatest familiarity with this movie was always the fact that it was the subject of a chapter of Carol Clover's book, Men, Women, and Chainsaws, which was like the first scholarly book on slasher movies, or one of the very first. And it was a chapter contrasting this with I Spit on Your Grave. Oh.

Interesting. Oh, we should cover that too. Yeah. Which is also very hard to watch and has a remake that makes it, I think, less hard to watch, but also less day of the woman-ish. But anyway, but that's a whole other story. But no, I'd also never seen this whole movie. And also there is, you know, a very long, explicit rape scene in it.

and I had, I think, I realized while watching it to come on today that I had been avoiding it because I, because I knew about that part and I didn't want to watch it. And, yeah, I'm glad to have seen it and then get to talk to both of you about it. Yeah, thank you for being willing to have this conversation with us. Seriously. Jamie, what about you? Had you, were you familiar with it, the movie? I was aware of it, but I hadn't seen it. I think, like, yeah, avoiding it kind of for similar reasons, but I was glad that we ended up deciding to do this episode, even though it feels so all over the place. But, like, I'm glad we ended up deciding to do it

because I do feel like movies like this, you know, for better for worse, and I think this movie is generally for better, that, like, you get a, you can get a feel of, like, how far culture was willing to deal with this topic and stories like this in a given historical. moment. Yeah, I don't know. I was, I guess, pleasantly surprised at how thoughtful it was, even though there's obviously like a lot of 1988 in there. But I was more familiar with the, and we'll talk about this after we talk about the movie, but I was more familiar with the

case that inspired this. Yes. With a woman named Cheryl Arrucho, who was not even alive when this movie came out, which we can talk about. But because that happened, like a decade before I was born, but it happened near where I grew up. And so I don't recall, like it wasn't like a story I was intimately familiar with growing up, but I do, I recognize her name. I certainly recognized, we were talking about, and we will talk about there is an episode on, I think a pretty good Netflix docu-series from a couple years ago called Trial by Media. Yes. That it was like so intimately familiar that I was like, oh, I know some of the,

the ladies in this movie. So I was familiar with the story and I'm interested to also talk about like what elements from that story they brought to this film and what they kind of left. As there's just so many ways to come at this. But anyways, I generally was, I'm very glad that this movie exists and it seems like it was tremendously difficult to get made and was made unchlockingly because of there being women executives fighting for it, which is unfortunately something that we still, I'm like with this terrifying super merger happening, I'm like, I wonder if women will be allowed to make creative decisions anymore. We'll see.

Maybe they'll replace women with like a computer that analyzes women and then tells meth what women will watch. It's going to be awesome, dude. It'll be called. what will it be named? Oh my gosh. What's the fake AI actress that whoever loser made up? Tilly.

Tilly Norwood or something. Yeah. Tilly is going to go work for management. Tilly. But I imagine her as just like the Creschenator from Pucurama. Huge feminist win as Tilly Norwood is promoted to Head of Development at Super Paramount. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Paramount Brothers Brothers.

We're laughing, but that is going to be like a variety headline in the next eight months. I don't think. There are so many variety headlines that have broken me, but I don't think that there's any, this is just, okay, this is an aside, but maybe we need to, but there's never been an industry trade headline that's made me laugh harder than UTA signs Parmesan cheese. What? Do you remember that? No.

How did this happen? And not just because I got dropped by D, by U.S. T.A. Not a year before. And then they signed Parmesan cheese. What do they, what does that mean? The brand. The brand. And then the body of the story is we're so glad that the resources that we no longer had to spend on Jamie Loftus we could use to acquire parmesan cheese. Yeah. If you look up UTA, I think it's UTA, UTA parmesan cheese. They like represent the cheese. What about cheddar? Well, I don't know. You'll have, they won't talk to me. So you, you'll have to, you'll have to ask. But like, Cullen be like UTA. Hello. I've got. chat around the line. He's not happy with his current management. Well, the purpose, Caitlin, I think, is to get Parmesan. Like, it's like product placement. Like, we're going to get Parmesan on HBO. Oh, okay, Parmesano Reggiano. Yeah, it's like a brand. The brand. Like the official Parmesan. It was like, like the generic idea, the concept of Parmesan tree, cheese. Okay. They can't do that yet. But they're getting there. But basically, that's kind of the brand. Wow. Anyways.

Right. Well, shout out. Call Parmesan cheese as agent if you want. I don't know how I feel about Parmesan now. Do you think Parmesan sold out? I think so. Yeah. I think I'm going to go full pecorino now. I want independent cheese. Independent cheese only. Well, shall we take a quick break?

Yeah, I fear we may be wool gathering. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, let's collect ourselves. Come back after this break. It is like love. You feel it in your heart. IHR Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts,

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After a while, a woman named Sarah, played by Jody Foster, comes running out. She's screaming. She's clearly traumatized. She's clutching her clothes, which seemed to be partly torn off. We see a man also come out of the bar and call 911 from a payphone, saying that a woman was just raped by three or so men inside of the bar. We cut to Sarah at the hospital. She's being questioned by the healthcare staff.

Photographs are taken of her bruised and scratched body. She has a pelvic exam. And then a few people show up, including a woman from a rape center, a detective, and a woman named Catherine, played by Kelly McGillis. She is the deputy district attorney who has been assigned to Sarah's case. it's interesting to me and we can talk about this more as we go on but we're met with a series of women kind of in real time at the very beginning but we i think i mean one movie can only bite off so much but i was interested and especially more learning about the charler rojo case how the um the rape crisis center representative kind of falls into the background after that i mean almost immediately we meet her before kelly mcgillis and then we don't really see her come back and I guess like fortunately that that like feminists and feminist organizers and rape crisis counselors were a lot bigger of an element in the Cheryl Arrudeau story. I feel like the accused

doesn't really have the bandwidth or chooses not to. We can talk about it. But yeah, I was surprised because we meet her like we meet the examining nurse. We meet the rape crisis counselor and then we meet the lawyer and then we just kind of stay with the lawyer. I would. I, wonder if that is because the original draft of the script, and it's worth noting that this movie was written by a man named Tom Topor, Topper, and directed by a different man, Jonathan Kaplan, who do seem like lovely people, but yeah, this movie was fought for by two women executives, and it almost feels like that decision that we still see people make all the time, which is like, well, it has a better shot of getting made if we let men make it.

Sure. Yeah. So the original draft of the screenplay had it so that the district attorney character was basically the main character, that the focus was on her. Because it was going to be Jane Fonda. Oh, right, right. And that the survivor of the assault was going to be far less of a character. But then director Jonathan Kaplan kind of insisted that the Sarah character be basically as prominent of a character as the district district judge. attorney. So, but I'm wondering if like some that's still kind of leftover. Yeah, right. Like the,

the absence of like, you know, the rape crisis center staff and things like that. I think it's probably because of that. I agree. Anyway, um, so Sarah is examined at the hospital. Um, she meets the Catherine, district attorney character. That same night, Catherine and the detective take Sarah back to the mill, the bar, to see if the men who raped her are still there so that she can potentially ID them. Sarah reluctantly agrees to this, but she goes and she identifies two men who are still there. Catherine then drops Sarah off at home. She lives with her boyfriend, Larry, who seems like a piece of shit. He does not know how to be supportive of Sarah, and neither does her mom who Sarah calls so we get a sense that she does not have a very good support system.

Yeah. I like how that, I mean, we don't spend a ton of time with Sarah's support system or lack thereof, but I like that the movie does go out of its way to not just make her one-dimensional in that sense and that like she makes efforts to, and like as with so many people, especially the further back in time you go, it's like even the people who might care have no idea how to support her. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And she's just like this overwhelmed. alone character over and over again in the movie. And also, I was surprised by how young Jody Foster looks in this because it's just a few years before the Silence of the Lambs. But I feel like she's still got such a baby face on her. And she almost, she like reminds me of the way she was in like Freaky Friday in this movie. She's still, yeah, because she's, I guess she was like 25 when this was shot.

I, I really, she's so good. She's so good. Yeah. As an actress and also for the world. Yeah. Yes. I just want to. I always have an overwhelming urge to protect any Jody Foster character.

Yeah. Yeah. I just want to like, because you know those like TikToks that are like getting up at 4 a.m. to make lunch for my blue collar husband. I want to do that, but for Jody Foster. I hope Jody Foster's, you know, I don't know. Jody Fosters are also queer icon. Like we just, we just love to see her.

I corresponded via email with her when I worked as an unpaid intern, basically being an assistant at a literary management company. They should have just hired an assistant. Yeah, this was in New York. This was many, many years ago. And they should have just hired an assistant and paid them. But instead, they got unpaid interns to do that. The golden age of the intern. Yeah, that's true.

You can't exploit them like that anymore. But even though it was an intern, I still had like the responsibilities that an assistant would have. And so I was instructed to email Jody Foster. I don't remember specifically about what. And she and our correspondence, as I recall, was lovely. Oh, she really seems unmatched. She's so good. And this, it was interesting reading about.

And I guess for just to, because I know we, we talk. about in movies like this, particularly when they are made by men at the top, like the first thought is almost like, God, I hope that Jody Foster was, and Kelly McGillis were treated well and fairly. And from everything I can gather, it does seem like this was, I mean, like a very heavy, but safe and thoughtful production, particularly for its time. I'm sure that there would be more sort of systems in place today, as well as intimacy counselors. And and, you know, sort of choreographing things, like, scenes, like, we'll be talking about. But for anyone who did, like, I just want people to feel haunted by that question,

it seems like, because there's, there was a oral history about this movie published about 10 years ago in The Hollywood Reporter. And it seems like it was, you know, appropriately difficult, but not from a, like, anyone felt put upon or harassed, which is. Glad to hear it. Yeah. Which is proof that that's possible, despite so many people. in the industry claiming it's not. There's no, there's no year where that needed to happen

because this was shot in like 87 and everyone was, you know, okay all things considered. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's also, I will guess point out on a lighter note that this is set in Washington. It was filmed in Vancouver, B.C., but it has the look of the Pacific Northwest that feels so true

and so familiar to me, which is just like not really really, overcast sky, train tracks, light dusting of garbage. So you felt the region was represented? Yeah, I really felt so. Visibility matters. Well, you can compare that with like, you know, Seattle is depicted in the ring where it's just like pouring all the time.

Sure. Which is good for your horror movie. Seattle isn't green. I think of the ring as being a mostly green movie. Yeah. It's so gray. Isn't the Matrix also pretty green? It's like a step below the Matrix. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of like, what do they call that? I don't, it's not color correcting. It's color. It's color grading. Yeah. Yeah. They just put a green color grade over the entire movie of the Matrix.

Yeah. Anyway, so the next day, Sarah and Catherine go to the college campus because one of the rapist, is a college student, so they go to try to find him, and Sarah identifies him. He's a member of a fraternity, and so he and the other two men that she ID'd earlier are arrested, but they are shortly thereafter released on bail. This case gets picked up by the press, and we could also talk about the real-life case that this movie is inspired by and the press of it all. We'll get into it. Yeah, because I think the press is sort of another large topic that this movie includes but doesn't like super, I wouldn't say it like focuses on it.

Totally, right. Yeah, it's more prevalent in the real life case. This case gets picked up by the press and there's a report about how the defense plans to claim that there was no rape that Sarah enthusiastically consented to everything that happened. The college guy rapists frat is watching this on TV. They're cheering for him. Although there was another guy there glaring at this character whose name is Bob. We recognize the guy who is glaring as the guy who called 911 at the beginning of the movie. So we're like, hmm, okay, let's see how this panel. out. Then District Attorney Catherine pays a visit to Sarah. She asks several victim-blamy questions.

I want to talk a lot more about this scene, but the questions infuriate Sarah. Catherine's basically like, I'm just prepping you for the questions you are going to be asked on the stand by the defense because they're going to try to show the jury that you have a rotten character because, for example, Sarah drinks alcohol and smokes weed and she has a criminal record because she was arrested for possession of a drug that wasn't actually hers, but she still has a record. But yeah, basically the defense is going to try to invalidate everything she says. Right. Then Catherine goes to question Sarah's friend Sally, who was there at the bar with her that night.

Sally also works at the bar, but she didn't see the rape because men were blocking her view. She says she didn't know what was going on and that she left. But Sally fully believes Sarah. She also says that she can't really remember any of the patrons who were there that night, except for a guy with a scorpion tattoo. And so we'll put a pin in that. But because Sally didn't really witness anything, Neither did the bartender because Sarah was drunk and high that night and has a criminal record and various other factors.

Catherine does not feel confident that the jury would rule in Sarah's favor because of that. I think like other DAs encourage Catherine to do a plea deal so that the case doesn't go to trial. And it also is interesting though that like at the beginning, I think that that like, Like, again, I don't know about this specifically, but this movie is so effective at getting you, reminding you about how many systems need to actively fail someone who has been raped in order for something this horrific to, for it to happen this horrifically.

Because with the Kelly McGillow's character, there's at one point, a man who will become very much her, like, op in terms of, like, getting this case done, actually suggests at the beginning that she's like, she's not going hard enough when they're at that hockey game. And I thought that that was such an interesting detail to add that it's like the way that rape is viewed in this profession at this time is so clinical where he's trying to think,

well, what's the most you can get? What's like, what's the win you can get? Like you're thinking too small. And he's like, so he's both sort of, he's advocating for Sarah, but totally incidentally. Right. Like he's just like for the right reasons. Exactly. Yeah.

And it's it is interesting. I do think that there's like, even though I think that Kelly McGillis character is like over emphasized in the story over Sarah, I do think that it is like interesting to see that character's journey from like being forced to see her clients as people, which unfortunately, you know, plenty of, plenty of lawyers do need that. So anyways. Jamie, what do you think of the role hockey plays and all this? And the role, I, you know, did we even see a Zamboni on screen? No. Come on. And so in that way, it doesn't pass the lofty test at all.

I do actually have, unfortunately, it's a bummer one, but I have a pitch for a new test. Oh. Do you want to share that now? I'll pause it now. I don't know if this is going to, you know, like many, we'll see if it's, I think, and we'll talk about it, but I have very complicated feelings about the creative decision to show the rape scene. I think I understand why it was done. I don't think that it is a valueless decision.

Wouldn't have been my choice, right? Right. My test is, I'm pitching, okay, I wrote this at two in the morning last night. The Doubt 2008 test is what I'm calling it. Okay. A movie whose central question at the time of release seemed to be, will you believe, that this clearly traumatized person you've been conditioned by the media not to believe

is telling the truth so that's that's the test is like this question of because it reminds me of doubt in that we're asked I think especially with 1988 goggles do you believe her to the point where I think the movie feels it my theory is the movie

feels it necessary to go out of its way to tell you she wasn't lying she was telling the truth here will show you versus, you know, a modern lens, I think of like a movie like Sorry Baby, where there is an assault, but you don't see it and you don't need to see it to believe the protagonist. The reason I say doubt is because doubt is a movie in which a sexual assault, this time of a child by a priest, is the central question of the movie. But there is thankfully nothing shown, but it means that a lot of people in 2008 took the wrong,

questions away from that movie, which is, I wonder, do you think that happened? Did it happen? Right, which was like literally what I mean, as we talked about in our doubt episode 5,000 years ago, that was my takeaway from that movie. It's like, I don't know. It's really about the question, right? And it's like, no, watching it as an adult, it's clear that this did happen. But like a movie's compulsion to show you, look, they're not lying because you've been so culturally conditioned to not believe them. I don't really know what the test is, But that's, I'm thinking around movies with those kinds of themes. And I suspect that the reason the accused does show this scene is a combination of factors,

including how horrific rape is. But I think there is also, especially we'll talk about the production and like how this movie tested, how people reacted to it, how people reacted to the Cheryl Ruggia case. I can totally understand why production at this time would feel like we have to show the audience definitively that she's telling the truth because there was so much dubiousness around believing anyone which yeah so i don't i don't know i mean yeah we can talk further about the merits of showing the rape scene on screen which spoiler alert eventually does happen toward the end of the movie i think there is value in it for certain reasons i think there's also

So again, I also would have not chose to show it or show it in the way that it's depicted on screen in the movie. But I do think it's because the film wanted to, like if anyone in the audience had such doubt of whether or not. Such Doubt 2008. Exactly. Regarding whether or not Sarah was telling the truth about what happened to her, the movie is saying, no, this absolutely did happen. Do not have such doubt. Do not have such doubts versus a movie. Because there are movies such as anatomy of a fall where you do walk away from that movie.

Yes. Maybe having such doubt. But that's okay because it's just a different approach. Yeah, right. And it's a different set of questions. For sure. And it's in the context for that is, I mean, because rape culture is so pervasive and rape culture dictates that anyone who comes forward about. having been raped, the reaction is usually do not believe this person. They are lying. Usually this

woman is lying. Like at best they're equally on trial to the rapists. Right. Because that's so pervasive. I think there is a lot of value in in the movie confirming that this did indeed happen. Now, again, did it handle it the best way? We will talk about it. But yeah, I was more, we'll talk about it. But, But yeah, I think that that does feel like I can totally understand why that decision felt necessary in 1988. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And also kind of who is that, who is that depiction aimed at?

Yes. Yeah. Because there's, I mean, there's all of these. Okay. We're going to go ahead. But like the talk about in that oral history, Jody Foster was reflecting on shooting that scene. And she was like, honestly, it was very upsetting. I, you know, she was like not from it, but she was like, it's a traumatic position to be in as an actor.

And so I don't really remember, but what I, what she vividly remembered was how upset the men were getting. And the men were leaving the room and throwing up. Throwing up. Yeah, I read that. You know, screaming, crying, throwing up. And fair enough, it's horrific. But I do wonder, I mean, and again, and this isn't necessarily a criticism. And it gets into a lot of what we're talking about right now because in order for,

rape culture to be dismantled, men cannot be in favor of it as a block. Like, they do need to be forced to sit with these things and understand. I take issue with that coming before the safety of, you know, victims and survivors, right? But it's very complicated. But I, I was, I was struck by, like, how, you know, it sounds like Jody Foster was like, yeah, it sucked and it was, you know, it was difficult as an actor, but like the men were way more upset. And I was like, that's so interesting. There could be a million answers. It depends on the person.

But yeah. Yes. I mean, and yeah, and of course there are so many reasons for that. But it does make me think of, you know, part of part of this whole problem and conversation of men, defaulting to disbelieving women's rape claims to the extent that they have historically. It feels like part of that has always been the idea of, well how could you undergo this trauma and then you know act in this way later on or make a joke about it or sort of continue on with your day and it's like well right i don't know women just kind of do that

we just sort of continue on with our day or there's the alternative because that you're being too histrionic and are therefore acting you know and we're and then of course you know and ultimately that's all about the idea that you are not the one to decide the reality. of what happened to you. Or that whatever, however you behave or whatever you say, it's being judged and the validity of your complaint cannot be taken for granted.

We simply cannot win. Yeah. There's just like, there's no right way to be. Jody Foster also worked on a movie where she co-starred with an actual lion when she was a child and had like close calls with it and just had to go right back into it. So, you know.

I mean, Jody Foster is, I, God, I'm so, like, what a life. Because it's also like, this was her, this, this role won her, her first Oscar, but it wasn't her first nomination because she got nominated as a child for playing a child sex worker. All right. In taxi driver. In taxi driver, which we somehow, I mean, I understand how, but maybe, maybe it's, maybe it's, unfortunately almost time to cover taxi driver. I can't, I can't.

It's kind of like, that's one of those ones. that we're like, well, we have to, I guess. Unfortunately, it does feel. It does tend to come up. I mean, and then there was the whole I did it for Jody thing, which I don't know enough about, but I mean. I know way too much about it. There's an episode if you're wrong about about that one. I was like part of it's because of Sarah.

It's called the insanity defense. Yeah, that was stressful. She was at Yale at the time. You know, she was very buffy. She was just trying to get through midterms or whatever. That was prior to this movie, right? That all happened in the early 80s, right? Yeah.

Like 1981, because Reagan had just become president. I just, she was, oh, I love Jenny Foster. That was also connecting to this movie, that was kind of how Nancy Reagan got so into astrology. Because she liked it kind of a normal amount before, but after Hinkley shot Reagan. No, after Hinkley shot Reagan, she was like, I really need to know astrologically how to keep my husband for being shot again. That's my analysis. this. Wow. Well, so, okay. It all comes back to astrology as we will see. Yeah. All roads lead to astrology. It does. I mean, I applaud her. I'm like, I'm also looking for answers in the stars.

There, yeah, I know this episode is all over the place. But I thought it was interesting that, like, Jody Fosser was not the first choice for this part, which I guess I'm just like assuming she's the first choice for everyone because she's awesome. But she was not the first choice for this part. And in fact, many actresses turned this part down due to, and it says because it was a controversial theme, but I think we can also make space and grace for not every actor is going to want to put themselves in the position of being raped on screen. So this isn't a judgment of these actors, but the other actors who were considered before Jody Foster were Kim Basinger, Demi Moore, Jennifer Beals, Meg Tilly, and Rosanna Arquette. So there were a lot of, I mean, I think that, again,

Again, that just speaks to what a charged topic this was always is, but specifically in the 80s, that so many high-profile actors were like, no, not doing it. Well, including Kelly McGillis, who was cast to play the district attorney, but she was initially offered to play the role of Sarah, but declined. But the reason was that she had been a victim of rape and didn't want to play. Right, exactly. Yeah, which I knew very, this is, I, I'm just not very, familiar with Kelly McGillis. She gives a great performance in this, but I'm like, I guess I've

seen Top Gun. Right. I guess I've seen Top Gun. Her ring was limited by the needs of Top Gun. But I think she's, she's terrific in this movie. And yeah, we'll talk about it. But yeah, like you're saying, Caitlin, like she was in consideration, but chose to play the lawyer because she felt kind of just like weird about playing a character who had gone through something so similar to something she'd been through very recently at the time this movie came out. Yeah. And we'll get more into it because it also was like, I think very, it must have been incredibly difficult for her to, you know, discuss on this press tour, which is like how people found out.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, back to the movie, I suppose. So Catherine is not confident that she will be able to win this case for Sarah. So she meets with the attorney. who are defending the rapists. They are trying to negotiate what specific crime the men will be charged for.

Catherine is pushing for the most severe charge, which would be rape one, like first degree rape. The defense is trying to minimize it and advocate for like sexual abuse too. They're having this very creepy. I know it's real, but it's very, again, like you're forced to watch a lot of really nasty shit in this with, with purpose. like yeah they're they're like debating over like they're like they're negotiating a contract totally i can give you rape too i can give you a little it's yeah there's a moment in that scene when the attorney who

is defending the college frat boy he says and i quote he's a kid of 22 he's an a student he's got a bright future. And where have we heard that before? Yay. I love this one. Yeah, they're playing the hits here. But I mean, and these are the hits that are literally being played, right? I mean, I'm certain we're going to see these exact hits played. You're sent back to the Brock Turner case. You're sent back to any number of high profile rape cases where it's like, consider the boys, consider the boys. The boys and they're bright futures. And as we're going to get into in just a moment, Another thing that, I mean, an aspect of the Cornell case that is being at least more discussed in, from what I've noticed, like on social media and just among the plebs of this world on this round of discourse that I wasn't seeing as much discussion about 10 years ago is something that this movie deals with directly, which is bystanders. And what do we do with bystanders?

because bystanders are whatever, to me, more rape culture syndrome than the rapists themselves. They're the enablers of rape culture. Right. And that is something that I think is very rightfully being talked about a lot in the context of the Cornell case, even though I think sometimes there's like this misguided, like, we have to, we have to think about how we can help men not do this. And it's like, oh my God, can we please kick it to them? Can they, can we not make this women's responsibility for the first time ever? I think if they stopped getting away with doing it, they would, they would perhaps, we should try that, you know? I'm just, I'm just, I'm just being hashtag trigger.

I mean, we all are, but I'm just, uh, anytime we jump directly to like consider the men, it's like, what, what moment of my life am I not considering the men? Oh my God. Yeah, we've been doing that and it hasn't worked. No. Anyway, Catherine and the offense, sorry, Catherine and the defense attorneys are negotiating. I like the idea of offense attorneys. I mean, it's. They're really aggressive. They're very offensive.

Absolutely. Yes. They eventually come to an agreement with the charge being reckless endangerment rather than rape. Catherine agrees to this because it carries the same like prison sentence as rape. That being five years, although these rapists will likely only serve about nine months in prison. So they come to this plea deal. This makes Sarah furious and she confronts Catherine being like, what the fuck is this? Why aren't we going to trial?

Why isn't the charge first degree rape? Well, it's like, why didn't anyone ask me to testify? Like, yeah. And she says, oh, just because I'm poor and not as educated as you, this means I would be a bad witness on the stand. Fuck you, you sell out. And so class becomes a part of the conversation. I'm interested to talk more about that. Sarah gives this great monologue, and then she storms out.

Cut to Sarah giving herself a short haircut. So we've got some baldest woman in charge vibes. I think it definitely bears out because the next thing she does is hit a, hit a bystander with her car, as is her right. Yes. Yeah, that haircut did work. But first she breaks up with her shitty boyfriend, Larry, saying to get the hell out and don't come back. And he takes everything but her James Dean poster. And again, another, I'm very glad.

It's referenced later that Larry is in court and. testifies maybe, but we don't see it. I don't think we have to. I'm glad that that was done away with. But again, just like another detail that I really appreciate it was that her boyfriend, well, not himself, as far as we know, it's sexually abusive towards her. Does this thing that felt very familiar and it's just like done and then she breaks up with him shortly after.

But that like he is frustrated by her trauma limiting her, his sex. access to her. Totally. So while he is like, and this happens in kind of movie time where he does this and she immediately breaks up with him, but that like that I think like is a familiar feeling to a lot of survivors is like someone who is like, I'm here for you, babe. But then when you're having difficulty even considering sexual contact with anyone, you're met with frustration or resentment or whatever it is. And you can feel that dynamic happening there. I just thought it was a a thoughtful detail. Yeah, totally. He says something like, you're going to have to get over this

soon. This is getting so boring. Right. And then she's like, get the fuck out and never come back, you piece of shit. This is also the reveal that it's like, he, I'm like, does he even pay rent? Like, you know, she's like, this is my house. And I was like, oh yeah, get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Oh my God. So after she kicks him out, she carries on with her life. And one day at a record store. This is what you were just talking about, Jamie. A man relentlessly hits on her. She keeps saying no. He gets more and more aggressive. And then he says, I recognize you from the mill that night. And he's taunting her. She's trying to leave in her car, but he's blocking the exit. So she rams into his vehicle with her car. He and Sarah are both admitted to the hospital. Catherine shows up for

Sarah and sees the scorpion tattoo on this guy's arm. Hmm, didn't Sally say something about a scorpion tattoo? Then Catherine goes to Sarah and Sarah is like, this happened because you didn't let the case go to trial and let me speak for myself. So now everyone thinks I'm a piece of shit. So this is your fault, Catherine. And Catherine is like, damn, she's right. So she goes after the scorpion tattoo.

guy who tells Catherine that Sarah is a crazy whore who put on a sex show for an audience, and she loved every second of it. Right. And this is where things start to, I mean, well, they've already sort of separated from the case that inspired it. But I thought it was interesting that they paced it out in this movie. Because my understanding of the Arrojo case is that bystanders were always a part of the conversation and that these were separate.

trials but it wasn't I thought it was an interesting writing choice that they had Kelly McGillis's character go after the bystanders because she had taken it too easy on the rapists themselves because that's how it's presented yes yeah for sure and this is like a thing that happens a lot in law and order where like you as an audience will watch the prosecutors kind of not be able to satisfyingly prosecute the person who's morally responsible for something so then they kind of go after somebody else and it's very and it like satisfies you as a viewer but it's it's weird legally and also just consistently for them to sort of you know for it to then maybe feel as if we're using the second trial as a way to make the first deal seem like palatable less inadequate right

yeah right I mean it is sort of like Kelly McGillis like to some extent her like journey to recognize that um yeah you know like what's a combination of things right because it's like she she believe like she always does but i guess it's like a question of her character at the beginning believes sarah but she doesn't necessarily believe that it matters right which is like two separate things that it's worth going to trial for and or like worth risking anything professionally or personally so it's which i think is so telling and i think is very true of of many women of that time and still now that like when you when someone is in i'm thinking right now of i mean whatever we're talking about this at the tour as well but um you know megan kelly right who very

publicly and like rightfully called out roger ails for sexually her harassing her. This was around the time of Me Too. I believe this happened in 2016, so the year before. They made a movie about it, whatever. And who is now, during the Cornell case, has totally stepped back from that stance as being an advocate for women and basically, you know, went on her fuck-ass show and was like, consider the boys. It's what she was wearing. Like, was she, like, the playbook that we've been hearing from before the accused came out. right from time immemorial of blaming the victim which is fascinating when it's like you know I do think there's value in showing that other women will and and not to say that only women are

victims of rape disproportionately you guys all know what I mean right yeah but but that other women will you know not be willing to personally risk anything for a woman who is suffering to protect their own interests and peace. Yeah. And I think the kind of the way that generational trauma exacts itself where women will kind of look at other women or younger generations, you know, reporting or wanting to have taken seriously sexual trauma or assaults that they've suffered and the sort of the feeling if you have lived through that and not received any kind of attention or care for it, you know, the feeling

of resentment that we can see that. that engendering. Not fairly or rightly, but like that that's definitely a trend that keeps emerging. Yeah. Totally. This is not the same thing, but it's like when people are like, well, I had to pay back my student loans so everyone should. It is like that. No, it totally is. On a different scale, but yeah. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't, I think it is morally correct for things to not be better for my children. And it's like, yeah. What? I suffered, so everyone should have to suffer. Yeah.

Yeah. So the scorpion tattoo guy says this horrible thing about Sarah and the events of that night, which prompts Catherine to go back and listen to the 911 call that the guy made anonymously at the very beginning, in which he says, there's a whole crowd watching. So, as we were just talking about, basically, in order to redone, the situation, and also perhaps like Catherine redeeming herself, because she fucked up by taking the plea deal, she now wants to go after the group of patrons at the bar who she believes solicited and encouraged the rape so that she can charge them with criminal solicitation. Her male colleagues at the DA's office do not like this.

And I don't know if they fire her or threaten to fire her, but they're being babies about it and they're being really shitty about it. It was unclear because it does seem like she stays at the office question mark. I don't understand how lawyers work. So I was like, maybe she still works there or maybe she doesn't. Either way. Yeah. They're at odds. Indeed.

Catherine goes back to Sarah to admit her mistake and say that there's still a chance for Sarah to go to trial and take the stand and tell her story. if they prosecute the complicit men who encouraged the rape. Sarah agrees to this, especially because if they win this case, the rape will go on record, which it wasn't before because of the plea deal, and the rapists will stay in jail for the full five years of their sentence rather than be released after a few months. So Catherine goes back to Sarah's friend Sally, to see if she can look at a lineup and identify any of the men who egged on the rape,

which she does for three men. Then Catherine asks Sally a series of question. Sally kind of lets it slip on the record that on the night of the rape, earlier in the evening, Sarah had said that she thought the frat boy was cute and wouldn't mind sleeping with him. Sally acknowledges that Sarah was joking when she said this, but Catherine thinks that this does not make Sarah look good, and she feels she can't use Sally as a witness for the prosecution anymore. And so everyone is discouraged, and they're like, oh, God, what do we do? Then Catherine goes to the mill to look around.

She sees the video game that the bartender mentioned one of the men who, who was there that night, like, playing the video game. Gosh, this movie does not make pinball games look good. And I do love just like in any movie a gum shoe reporting sequence. Oh, yeah. This is, I'm like, I don't know how to feel about this. It's kind of silly. She goes to the, like, top scoreboard on this video game.

Thank God he was good at it. Thank God he was good at it that he leaves. his first name. That his first name is three letters. Deus X pinball machine. They're like, how do we get this plot information across? So basically this guy who is the one who makes the anonymous 911 call, he had been playing this game.

He scored well on it, entered his name on the scoreboard, which also says the date, which is April 19th. Which I don't think it normally does. I don't know. I don't know either, but... This is the evidence pinball machine. But the best part is that his name, it like, it pans over dramatically and his name is Ken, which could be anyone named Ken.

But for some reason, okay. But no it isn't. Okay, I felt so I thought I was missing something. I'm like, how does she know? I'm like, Ken, why not choose a more anachronistic name? Sure. So this prompts Catherine to look at the like fraternity yearbook. I love that she has that.

I mean, I'm sure she could get it, but it's just a funny thing to suddenly appear in her home. I'm like, was that in the library? I don't know. I wasn't mad about it. Yeah, I was like, of all the things to be like silly in summary, I'm like, whatever, we get to Ken. Yeah. We know where we're going. We need to get there.

But yeah, I guess love that she just has it all of a sudden. She has the like, I don't know, I don't remember the name of the fraternity. She's doing the lawyer movie thing. where you decide to win the unwinnable case and then it just and things just start working out for you. Yeah, exactly. So she looks through this fraternity yearbook and finds Kenneth Joyce. And thank God there's only one Ken. There's only one. There's only one. Yeah. But nope, there's just the one. Just one Ken. And she's like, hey. In 1988. Oh, my God. Right. And then she shows up on campus and she's like, I know that you are the Ken and you are going to talk to me about it right now.

sitting on this bench. And he's like, you got me. I am the only Ken in the state of Washington. I am Ken. Oh, shucks. This is probably not that funny, but inside of this conversation, it's very funny. I just need to laugh about Ken. It's very plot. Yeah. The movie's going to get plotty somewhere. And I don't find it like offensive that they, that they kind of are they yada yada this. Because we just got to get to Ken. We got to get to Ken. And we do. Yeah. His job is. video game initials enterer yeah Ken's an interesting character I'm I'm interested to to talk about same the function of Ken yeah because he keeps kind of going back and forth of like I'm going to testify wait no I'm not yes I am no I'm not involved I don't remember anything you know so we don't know what he's going to end up doing we cut to the day of the trial for the criminal solicitation case Sarah takes the stand and tells her story recounting the events of the night of April 18th.

Jodi Foster comes to win an Oscar on this day. Oh, yes. She is cross-examined by the defense who tried to say that it's not possible for her to know exactly who encouraged the assault. And she's like, I mean, yeah, I guess you're not wrong. Because she was too busy being violently raped. Right.

This one also feels so horrifyingly real where they're like, well, if you were so distracted by being horrifyingly raped, then how could you possibly have seen it well enough to describe it? It's like, you're right. The fact that this terrible thing happened to me is proof that it doesn't matter what I know happened to me. Good job.

Right. It's so like, I mean, and then if you look at the Arrujo case, it's like so, it's not like exactly one to one, but it's so close. Like, just of how we still talk about, rape and how, you know, it's like Sarah is, is on trial for sure. We treat UFO sightings with more credulousness, I guess, you know, like when you, when someone is on the news saying they saw a UFO, people ask much easier questions.

Yeah. Totally, yes. So things are a little shaky during the trial and pretty much everything comes down to Ken's testimony. before he testifies, he visits his rapist friend who is in prison. He was like, hey, buddy. Hey. He tries to coerce Ken into saying that he was drunk and doesn't remember anything from that night.

Because this rapist knows that if Ken testifies that he witnessed the rape, this frat guy will get the full five-year sentence and it will be on his record. And five years is a really, really long time to go to prison. Especially for a man with such a bright future. Yeah. Fuck off. Well, that, like, truly, truly. So then Ken goes back to Catherine and Sarah and says that if he is made to testify, he will recant his whole statement. So Sarah is like, what the fuck?

Ken takes the stand. We don't know if he is going to, like, chick. out and recant his statement. But it turns out that he tells the whole story, which we see as a flashback and, again, like, extra trigger warning here. But the brutal rape is depicted on screen. It goes on for a while. And we see, I think, crucially, we see the entire. Yeah. And I'm not saying this pro or con, but we see it from the moment she enters the bar, which is sort of part of why I'm like I do think that like and not even in a bad way but I do think that men or or I guess more generally people inclined to disbelieve rape victims see every single thing that is talked about and put on trial we see the whole sequence including the the moments that are characterized as Sarah's quote unquote mistakes right her saying, oh, he's kind of cute.

Like maybe I should, you know, hook up with him to make my shitty boyfriend jealous. And in the moment, you see, like, it is so clearly like a cast off thing. Totally. It is like not this diabolical thing. It's made out to be. Like, it, I don't know. It is such a. And something that I found, I guess, about this sequence, if it has to be there, and that's the way the movie is.

So I guess it has to be there. something I found tricky about this and I guess gets into I know what a lot like we'll have a longer discussion about intent and everything of like what is the purpose of this sequence we're constantly switching perspectives in this scene we don't stay on any one character's perspective which I found to be I don't know a choice I just want to talk about with both of you because it's not Like you necessarily, I mean, whatever. No one wants to be locked in on Sarah's perspective here. She is experiencing something truly horrifying.

But we are frequently switching to witnesses' perspectives. We are occasionally directly in Sarah's POV. We're also in the POV of Ken. We're also in the POV of Sally. We're also in the POV of the bartender. We're really jumping around this scene. And I think it's to just show who's telling the truth and who is maybe not told the entire truth. But I found it, I guess just like even as a viewer, I found it quite jarring that the scene cannot seem to exactly choose or favor a perspective.

Because I wouldn't even, I think that if I had to pick a character whose perspective is favored, it would probably be Ken. but even so it's like the camera's really jumping all over the place in a way that I was like okay I feel like this scene is really telling us who this movie is for and it seems like everyone is supposed to maybe see themselves in someone's perspective in this scene I don't know I actually kind of appreciated the objectivity of the point of view because in theory we should only be seeing things from Ken's perspective because this is who is recounting these events in this moment. Sure.

But the movie chooses to give us a more objective point of view or to like jump around to different people's points of view, which I think implies, again, this is what happened objectively because different people are going to, different people who experience the same thing are still going to describe events differently based on their perspective, their lived experiences, certain bits of context, whatever. But this objective depiction of this event, I think actually serves the story well. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but no, you're not wrong. I'm like, it was just something I was, I was curious what you both thought about. I think I, I struggle with it a little bit, but I also am like having a hard time articulating why.

So that is helpful to hear. I feel like watching it or talking about it even more now, it makes me think about, shamey to what you're saying, how much of that sequence is sort of answering the assumptions that I think the movie is assuming audience members have maybe made at that point and that if it is a movie where characters are raising these questions, which, you know, are very familiar from real life about,

and, you know, this like fundamental also non-question at the heart of all this, which is, you know, well, was she so drunk and flirty that it can't have been rape? And it's like, well, there's no degree of drunkenness or flirtiness or any other behavior that makes something into not rape, you know. But this question that seemed so relevant to people at the time in which people, and, you know, still does, unfortunately, and which people give so much power to. And I think that what, to me, what this sequence does that I feel grateful for to see in a movie is that it shows her, like, being flirty and showing interest in this guy and dancing and being sexy.

And yet when it comes to the actual rape scene, you're also then forced to watch something that is so brutal and so horrifying and goes on for so long that I think, you know, the gamble that the movie is taking is that anyone who's watching it, even who's been unsympathetic to Sarah. and who has the kind of assumptions that it would be fair to assume that a lot of viewers would have at this time, that if she dances or if she's flirty or drunk, then it then doesn't matter what happens to her. It feels like the movie is forcing you as the viewer to recognize that that assumption is horrible and insane. Yeah. I'm sure there are some people that that didn't work on, but, you know, it's, I don't know, I'm grateful for, that's my read of it. And I appreciated that. Because we see the evolution of things being consensual for Sarah consenting to things.

She is dancing sexily of her own volition. She is then dancing with the guy. It seems as though she is consenting to that. They start kissing. It seems as though she is consenting to that. But then there's a very clear turn where she very, very clearly says, stop, no, I have to leave. And that's when the bystanders get kind of activated to get involved. Because they're more passive before the rape starts. I also, I hope I'm remembering it correctly because

it was not a scene that I was like, let me watch it a second time. I don't think that there's an overemphasis on music. When that shift happens, you're kind of just, which again, like I think, I think that that is very smart filmmaking choice where you can't really argue. And I, again, guess going back to your point, Caitlin, of like the value of moving around perspectives and this like trying to make the scene as objective as as possible that like there's not a lot of filmmaking tools that are like could be argued as like trying to tell you how to feel. Right. Like it's you're you're being shown something and you're not being told how to feel.

And that cuts both ways, right? Because it's like if you're playing tragic music as the. this rape is taking place, that's telling you to feel one way. Or if the camera is behaving differently and her body is being objectified in any way, which I didn't think it was, that's, you know, how that cuts the other way. And like, I guess, yeah, this is very helpful to talk out with both of you. That so much of what I see value in with this, with this story specifically, and it connects to Cheryl Arrucho, even though, you know, it's like this story is best separated from her because it's not her story, but just the idea of like an imperfect victim, which is something

that we still culturally struggle with so much. Yeah. That we are sort of conditioned to only empathize in an uncomplicated way with people who have been assaulted and at no point, like there was no line of consent that was like began as consent and then crossed over into it. There was no alcohol. I think that it is like important to be confronted with these. I mean,

because this is how a lot of rape takes place and how a lot of rape is excused. And so having having her at the center and seeing it and also just it being so clear that this, that there's no world where this is right. Yeah. And I guess that there, that I think a lot of the complexity that people, claim to exist in the issue, I think, because to me seems to dissolve once you can hopefully

get people to understand that, you know, rape is not anything that anyone has ever asked for at any point, right? This idea that to be sexually available is to ask for rape, you know, and this idea that men can't tell the difference. And shouldn't be expected to. Right. Yeah. It's, anyway, moving, moving on. Unfortunately, still so prevalent. So we see this flashback. Then we cut back to the courtroom. The defense and prosecution give their closing arguments.

Sarah and Catherine await the verdict. And finally, the jury finds the three defendants guilty of criminal solicitation. And that's basically how the movie. And then a wonderful scary TV movie ending with statistics. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. And I didn't write down the exact statistic, but it was, you know, I think it was like once every six seconds a rape case is reported.

Six minutes. Six minutes. Sorry. And again, that's this is separate from this movie's conversation, but those are just the cases that are reported. I think the statistics. going around during this round of discourse is that I believe it's three quarters of women or non-binary identifying people have some experience with assault. Which still feels like a conservative estimate.

Yeah. So that is the movie. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. The music you love. Your favorite radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts, everyone's talking about. All in one place.

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I'm all about lying if it's something that really happened. The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing, you look the bear in the eye, and you say this isn't you. Do not preserve relationships. You don't need them. You only need one thing, and that's the get worse podcast. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pruh on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, this is, I'm not surprised that this is a movie that we've kind of been having a discussion throughout. I guess before we, Sarah, is there anything that you want to start the discussion with?

Is there anything standing out to you that we haven't started a discussion on yet? Well, I mean, the only thing that comes to mind is that I find it, we were talking a little bit before, in sort of the central rape scene about whose flashback this is and how it does seem to be, at least according to the structure of the movie, mostly Ken's flashback. And I find it interesting that it sort of, and again, this is sort of like us situating the movie as part of a time. But the idea that it takes a man's testimony for theoretically the jury in this courtroom and also us, the people watching it to be able to see what happened. and for the people hearing this testimony to to believe it possibly.

Yeah. Yeah, that's something that, okay, so because obviously this is something that is like on all of our minds in particular right now with the Cornell case and that there's a, you know, group chat of, I think over 50 people who were aware this was happening and that no one intervened. That I'm of many minds about that because it's like it is crucial for. for men who are aware this is happening and not doing anything to put something at stake and intervene. And if you didn't intervene to do everything you humanly can to make it right. And then in the same way, I do have so. I think that the way that the movie handles this plot point is kind of, is fairly dated.

The shot that is kind of like, was like, ooh, I really want to believe that would not happen in 2026. is at the very, very end, they win the case, and we cut to Ken, and he kind of gives Sarah a little smile. I'm like, you witnessed her horrific, right? Like, there's this little redemptive shot you get of him that I was like, that, I do think this movie does have an interest in getting men to recognize. And again, I'm saying men in the general sense, please don't yell at me, but like, getting men to recognize their own complicity. in rape culture and in bystander culture and and everyone's but specifically men right i think that that does feel like a clear part of this movie's agenda and i'm like thumbs up i appreciate it but it felt like going way too far to give him a little like hero shot at the end of the movie like what do you

mean i i mean i agree i think it could have been a lot worse though which doesn't excuse the but there's so many and i just found the shot whole like Oh, come on. Like, cut it. Leave it on the cutting room floor. Yeah. But I feel like there are many movies that lean way further into the like, yeah.

Look how this like man savior or it's similar to like a white savior narrative. Like look how how awesome and amazing they are. And it almost, and the movie will like turn focus to them and highlight their redemptive arc or their triumph or whatever when it's like, no, this is not the story. that is being told. We should not shift focus to the savior. Right.

Because, and Jamie, like you were saying, it's complicated because people with privilege, men, white people, cis-hete people, etc., should use their privilege to help and advocate for and protect and ensure the safety of marginalized people. But, like, that's the bare minimum. So, like, we shouldn't be groveling at their feet. and shifting all the focus to them when they display basic human decency.

And it feels a little like, yeah, I think the shot sucks. I do think it's like kind of like, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but like propaganda positive for like for people who, and again, I'm just going to say men and I'm so sorry, but like to men who maybe would not have. have seen themselves in this movie. I mean, we talk all the time on the Bacti Kaspah, the Patriarchy, the Guy archetype. I think this movie avoids that so well. We see such a gradient of people of all genders, really, in their reaction to this crime and to Sarah

as a victim and as a survivor. And I think that the movie seems to maybe be offering Ken as the most. accessible self-insert character for men watching this movie of like you know I think that there is this little undercurrent of like be the ken in this story be the person you suspect that they tested this and based on comment cards they were like oh we have to give well you have to give the men's we actually have some information we have this information take it away jamie so what happened okay so there the story is there this is coming from uh Hollywood Reporter, oral history of this movie that came out in 2016 by Rebecca Ford.

That talks to basically all of the relevant parties. So this movie was directly inspired by the Cheryl Arrucho case, which we'll get to. It was originally pitched by writer Tom Topor, who I don't know very much about, but it seems this is, this is definitely a preoccupation of his writing career. And I don't mean that in a negative way. So he he, he, he, brings this. He was struck by the public response to the Cheryl Orojo case and suggested writing

this movie. It is three producers, two of whom are women and definitely worth like singling out. Don Steele and Sherry Lansing were the two producers who did get this movie made because this is obviously not a movie

that is considered marketable. And in fact was one of the first mainstream films to ever deal with this subject which I mean which is not to say I was curious I wish I had more time to like

not that I doubt it but like to fact check that and to see over time how was this topic previously addressed because I do believe that there were movies obviously in which rape played a prominent role but not quite on your grave as one answer but then that's like

you know in the B movie exploitation genre where also one of the goals of movies and the kind of rape revenge genre in the 70s was to titillate men and then presumably to make them feel better by watching rapists being murdered and being like, see, it's fine that I felt like that. They're all dead now. I don't know how they're supposed to work psychologically, but we sure made a lot of them for a while. I haven't seen I spit on your grave, but that's what I understand it to be like. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, and this idea of like a mainstream legitimate movie that also doesn't sort of go into euphemisms. It's like a courtroom drama as well, like more so than a procedural.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The quote from Tom Topor when he and Jonathan Kaplan were getting ready to put this movie together after Don Steele and Sherry Lansing pushed it through, he says, Jonathan and I looked at a lot of old films and we couldn't find one that explored the subject. There were almost no movies where the subject of the movie is rape. There are many movies that have a rape incident in them.

but the accused is entirely about rape. There's no other subject. And it's about two women. There's no man who comes to rescue them. It's a very tough subject. So I, yes, the movie was written and directed by men, but at least it was by men who cared about the topic. And then like the closest thing I can think of is off the top of my head is anademy of a murder.

Which came out in maybe 1961, but that's about a woman is raped and her husband murders the man who did it. about the trial. Never seen it. About him going to trial for that. And so what happened to her is relevant. But it's, you know, it comes back to men ultimately, of course. Got it.

For Ben Gazzara. To get her background to Sarah, your question about test screenings. Yeah. That's all leading up to. So this is covered at length in oral history. When the movie was first test screened, it received the lowest scores in the history of Paramount. Oh, my God.

which is unhinged. And they did the Friday of the 13th sequels. Sherry Lansing says the audience thought that Jody's character deserved the rape, which like you, which is not shocking to hear, but is shocking to hear. But I mean, particularly in, I mean, I think there's no person in particular that said this, but coming off of the Cheryl Orojo case where that was very much the energy, it makes you, It made me want to lay down and die because it's like, okay, so this is just proof positive that this horrific trial being broadcast on national television did not change people's minds. And that makes me so angry because Cheryl Rujo is not alive to see this movie.

Anyways, Lansing later asks for a screening of the accused with just women, which tests far better. Because the executives at Paramount, because of the really low scores on the test screening, wanted to basically cancel the release of the movie. Yeah. And Sherry Lansing was like, not on my watch. Yeah. She was like, no, this is, consider maybe who this movie is for. Why do we need to prove that women see movies every two years or whatever?

But yeah, according to Lansing, there were 20 women who saw the movie in this test screening. and 18 said that they had experience or knew someone who had been raped. And as they continued to edit the movie, it eventually got one of the highest test scores in the studio's history. So there's, you know, it seems like this is also being filmed and released in a moment. And again, like speaking to your point earlier, Sarah, that we've taken steps forward and back and like this is very nonlinear. But during a moment where people's feelings are changing on this topic,

kind of in real time, which is interesting because this movie does go on to be financially successful, which I wasn't expecting, honestly. And Jody Foster wins an Oscar for it. And like we talked about Kelly McGillis luckily chose, this was not information that was like outed about her. She she chose to share that she had been raped just a few years before in a very horrific way and talked about it in the press tour just to really make it. clear that like this is an issue that it affects everyone it is extremely pervasive for example me so um i don't know kately did you have anything else for the production that felt relevant um not really i don't think because you already touched on something i wanted to talk about which is the actual

filming of the rape scene and how um i'm thinking about like if this movie was remade today not saying that it needs to be but if this movie came out in 2026 i i I think it would be filmed differently or I would hope. But even at the time, people were very cautious about it. And they understood how it seems like they understood how the impact it might have on audiences, the impact it could have on the cast and crew, and that it was meticulously rehearsed. Seems like measures were taken to ensure people's safety on set.

And even so, it was still quite traumatic to, many people involved. Just to kind of reiterate that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that was everything I had for the production. I did want to talk a little more about the case that inspired this. Yes. Yeah, it does feel relevant for us to get in on that.

So, this is based on a case around a woman named Cheryl Arrucho, which, again, is like, This is something I was vaguely aware of because New Bedford is pretty similar, I guess, like socioeconomically to my hometown, Brockton. So it's like, I don't know, very aware of New Bedford. Also, iconically, like a lot of Moby Dick is in New Bedford. Oh. There is an annual reading of Moby Dick in New Bedford. It's great.

And what is relevant here, because while I think the accused, I'm like kind of blown away with how much I, how well, how well I thought it did with all these difficult topics, given the moment it came out in, and also kind of not given the moment it came out in. We're not really getting movies like this frequently. And certainly not ones that become, I mean, we had Sorry Baby last year, but I think, you know, it's like promising young women and Sorry Baby are sort of the only two movies of the last 10 years that I feel like I've really broken through in a like award sense on this topic. So it definitely has paved the way for a lot. But there are different. and things that it doesn't deal with,

that the case that inspired it does, that feel relevant to talk about. The two things that really stuck out to me were the issue of prejudice, first of all. And then second, the issue of media coverage. Yes. Caitlin, you alluded to this earlier.

We both watched the episode of Trial by Media on Netflix. I'm interested to watch the rest of that series. Deborah's in it. Shadow Debra. Oh, and then the third thing, is how feminists were actually crucially involved in these cases and, like, public response. So, okay, Cheryl Arrujo, the case itself, the details of the case are quite similar, down to the fact that the reason that a pinball machine in the accused is so focused on

is because they had to change that from a pool table, which is from the original case. important to note we should not know Cheryl Arrucho's name. Yes. So this is something that is, again, the accused does not really get into media exploitation, but what was remarkable about the Cheryl Arrucho case is that it was one of the first, if not the first rape case to be broadcast. Televised, yeah. Yes, televised began locally and then escalated to like an early coup for CNN.

And because of that, and you hear the. the judge in this, he speaks for this and explains why he felt it might be in the interest of the public good to understand how rape trials work. You can, like, I guess if it hasn't been done before, I can see why you might want to feel optimistic about it, but what we learned very quickly is that that is not at all the case. And that because there was no experience to, to like, harken back to, for broadcasting a rape case, her identity was not sufficiently protected. Everyone agreed. I thought this was fascinating because this is like so far out the window at this point of how we talk about rape cases where the idea of Jane Doe is still held.

But again, like everyone agreed. Like there was no argument. We don't need to know what this woman's name is and we don't need to see her on television. But they fucked it up and accidentally. her name on TV, which effectively docksed her. Doxed her and ruined her life, right? Because the other element of play here is that Cheryl Arrujo, like many people in New Bedford, there's a big Portuguese population and Portuguese immigrant population and all of the, you know,

very New England prejudices they're in and American prejudices in general towards Portuguese people. So both Cheryl Orujo is of Portuguese descent and the men who raped her were also of Portuguese descent, which makes sense in a majority of Portuguese community. However, what this, and this vaguely, Sarah, I was thinking like it vaguely reminds me of elements of the OJ case because Cheryl is, you know, like goes to the police and says I, you know, I was raped by, I believe six men. and that there were witnesses, like we talked about, these trials kind of happen alongside each other. There isn't Kelly McGillis character in this story, but that a lot of white bread like nimbie types in this area take this opportunity to say, oh, well, of course she was raped. Portuguese immigrants are unsafe and use it as this big opportunity to say, like, well, I knew it because I am prejudiced against immigrants. It's like I'm racist, I'm horrible. Yeah.

And so Cheryl Arrillo was like dealing with multiple layers that we don't see with Sarah because the story has been, you know, pretty whitewashed. Because I couldn't fit it into two hours and this is. Well, and not to not to offer that as an excuse, but just, yeah, to say that the complexity of real life doesn't fit into the time of a movie. I couldn't find a phase of production where this was even considered to be included. And that seems tactical as well in a depressing way. In a depressing way, yeah, because not only is Cheryl Arrujo doxed, but she's also kind of cast out of her own community in New Bedford because people blame her and blame her, you know, reporting this case in the first place for this new wave of anti-immigrant sentiment in this area.

So she is, you know, ostracized from her own community to some extent. extent. Again, I'm not saying 100%, but that this became a very complicated, charged issue in the Portuguese community, understandably, because there was this wave of prejudice that came off of this case that was then put on Cheryl Arrucho. There was also a lot of local protests. There was a lot of feminist organizing. I think more so than we see in the accused, there was a lot of public support of Cheryl as this case went on I get why there might not have been

bandwidth to show it within the accused but it was I mean if you see these crowd shots of New Bedford is like not a big city and the streets are like flooded with people on both sides of this issue at different points but it is flooded with feminists

it is flooded with Portuguese feminists specifically who are like let her fucking speak this is a more complicated issues than you're making it out to be. You see all the classic, I mean, things we still see today of what was she wearing culture. We see something I thought, sorry, I'm like talking so much. I'm sorry, guys. Keep talking. We see how people received watching this case, because again, people just like hadn't, this hadn't happened before. There wasn't precedent for it. So there's like local reporters who are interviewing people watching this in bars.

people are saying something that feels so normalized today that it was almost bizarre to watch people talk about it as if like it wasn't something that happens every day which is depressing but it was like people in bars being like yeah normally I watch soap operas but now I'm watching this which is there's a whole true crime industry around that now waiting to be born yeah but but this was unusual people were like well what you know and there were feminist groups that were like well we're like well if we're consuming it like we're consuming soap operas, then this is not the right way to consume it. And there's also the argument that like for a lot of people seeing, I do see the cultural value of seeing how rape is treated in court. Because you see like right up front all of these questions similar to what we see Jody Foster confronted with in the accused, just putting her on trial, blaming her. the feeling at the time was like well this is going to encourage like not encourage other survivors of sexual assault to come forward which is true but again I that I guess maybe my my hot take there is I don't think that's a fault of the broadcast that's that is like one of the valuable parts of the broadcast is to show that the American justice system only traumatizes the victim further in many of these cases and like it shows you directly how much you have to put on the line to even address. address this in a court. Like I don't think that that was the, I think that this case would have gone that way either way. Yeah, and I think it is interesting that kind of the arguments you see people making about, you know, during kind of this period and other periods when it was

possible to use new technology to broadcast trials in some way, especially live, this idea that, you know, it'll, it'll shed light on the whole process and it'll discourage corruption and it'll educate the people. And I feel like now in the world that we live, in it is so sort of every day to have the trial as entertainment that it seems sort of quaint to think of it that way. And yet it is that is also true. Like I do choose to believe that at least that, you know. And also it's then true that whatever you offer to people for education,

they can then turn around and use as entertainment in perhaps a pretty ghoulish way or that, you know, they can use, you know, media that you're offering them to challenge their assumptions they can use to back up their own assumptions if they're determined enough to do it. And just the sort of lack of control that you have over how people use that information is pretty humbling, I guess. Yeah, 100%. The last thing that is, I think, is worth acknowledging. And this isn't a criticism of the movie, really. I think that there actually is a value in showing a rape case that ends to the, victim's satisfaction

is the outcome in the accused is not the outcome in the Cheryl orio case the outcome in the Cheryl Arrujo case is kind of well not exactly flipped but that the assailants themselves were found guilty but the witnesses were found not guilty and then there was a huge wave of protests

in the streets of New Bedford again in favor of the rabid Yay. They said innocent, innocent, innocent. But anyways, just to speak to, because I know the bystander topic is so focused on in the accused, that's not how it went in the Arrudo case. And tragically, Cheryl and her daughters. So the other, obviously, one of the clear risks of being doxed is Cheryl's safety, but she also had two young daughters. And after her name was publicly aired after she was assured it would not be. She was immediately, you know, ostracized in her own community. She was born and raised in New Bedford, only place she had ever lived, but didn't feel safe, especially after the case ended. She and her daughters moved to Miami. I'm unclear.

This has been disputed, so we don't know. But it seems like she had substance use issues following this case, which who on earth could blame her? And she died at 25 in a car car car. So she died in 1986, two years before this movie even came out. So I think it is like very easy to see the direct consequences of how this case was handled, even though she quote unquote won in that her rapists went to prison, but she did not win.

This ordeal top to bottom ruined her life. And it just, I don't, I'm not suggesting that there is a lesson there really, but just, you know, a very sort of horrific and grim example of how absurd it is to argue that any survivor of assault would advocate for themselves for attention. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it's the amount that the assault and the trials that surrounded the assault and the trials that surrounded the assault and, the public speculation and and the having to be on trial herself, even if you get the outcome that you go to court to get, that does not mean that everything is fixed. You're still faced with so much scrutiny and just living with the trauma. You know, it's... Yeah, and taught, yeah, it's like the trauma of the trial

on top of the trauma of the assault itself. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, I, was aware of the case but I didn't realize that she passed away so so young and her daughters had like gone on to preserve her memory and talk about this as time has gone on yeah a few things that struck me about the movie we've already touched on a few of these things but

like we were saying the movie doesn't focus on how much the press was involved in this trial it is there. You do get a sense of this story becoming national news. It's certainly not the focus of the movie. It's sort of there in the background. But how anytime we see like a news report about this case in the movie, it's always centering the defense. Who keeps saying that Sarah is a liar, that there was no crime, was no rape. Then the press speculates that the case didn't go to trial. Like the, the, the, the, the, rape case, not the criminal solicitation case, but that that one didn't go to trial because Sarah is not a suitable witness for the state. So it just, I feel like it sheds light on the fact that the, like, the harm that the press can and often has on rape culture, the scene toward the beginning in the hospital struck me because the hospital staff are treating Sarah in a pretty dehumanizing way. Like, she has.

Oh, yeah. Pritting her like Virginia Madsen and Candyman. And she's all covered in dog blood. Right. And it's this series of not super overt victim blaming questions, but not not that. Like, when was the last time you had sex? And you're like, yeah. Yeah.

Have you ever contracted an STI? You're like, I believe that this could be relevant somehow, but yeah. And then when she's being, when Sarah is like receiving her pelvic exam, the nurse or whoever is saying like relax you're tensing and it's like well yeah she was raped moments ago I was also struck by and this was just like I don't know what is considered normal here or like what because there might be a function for doing this I was like the the rape crisis advocate was standing next to the nurse and so presumably watching the exam take place which I'm curious if that was like standard procedure standard procedure yeah because that to me it's like smoking in a

courthouse back then right because it's like you you want to like I don't know if someone's in this predicament I mean I guess you just sort of want to see that moment of consent because I can also see the value of like ensuring that the medical professional is treating you fairly and to be able to confirm what is seen because medical professionals don't always like you're saying Caitlin and treat rape victims with the appropriate amount of care. So I can see the value in like overseeing the proceedings, but you also just want to sort of make sure that that she's cool with that. Right.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to arrive at is I feel like this movie highlights the ways in which different institutions under patriarchy and rape culture handle sexual assault, such as health care, such as the press, such as the justice system. Obviously, the justice system is what this movie primarily focuses on, but that all of these systems have the potential to and often do fail survivors or treat them in a very dehumanizing way. And then to speak more to the justice system aspect of that,

I found this scene between Catherine and Sarah, when Catherine goes to Sarah's house for the first time to ask her questions as she's trying to build this prosecution case. And Catherine starts by asking a series of very victim blaming questions. And you think at first, and I don't think this is true of Catherine's character, but you think at first as if she is asking these questions because she believes the validity of these questions, such as how much did you have to drink that night? What were you wearing? Did you show cleavage, see-through blouse?

Did you put on a show? What about your criminal record? Have you ever had sex with more than one person at the same time? And you're like, oh, my God. And then throughout this, Sarah keeps responding with like, what the fuck difference doesn't make what I was wearing. Do you think I asked for this to happen to me? Like, fuck you, get out of my house.

There are better ways to begin that. conversation than the way she did. Totally. Because then you get the sense that she's asking these questions to prove a point, the point being, this is what the defense is going to ask you, so I'm trying to prepare you as your attorney. But yeah, I agree. Catherine didn't handle that very well and ask questions that were like pretty traumatizing. This is, this movie is partly about her growing into a girl's girl. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I actually do, like we've talked about, I think that that's like a worthwhile journey to see. Yeah.

And I like that because from what I can tell that Kelly McGillow's character is sort of made up for the purpose of the movie. And there's not a direct analog in the same way that there is for Cheryl or Rousseau. I think it's like a very valuable thing to see like for women and for lawyers and public servants. Yeah. Yeah. Because there are also a couple other women in the story worth noting, one of them being Sally, who I find to be such a fascinating character. All of Sarah's closest friends have variants of her own name, Sally, the waitress, and Sadie the dog.

Oh, yeah. Whoa, that's true. It's a real Paul Bettney in a beautiful mind kind of a situation. So many Sarah's. That's true. Yeah. But she seems reluctant to talk to Catherine in ways that you can. potentially understand, but also she seems like she knows more than she initially lets on

when you see the flashback where to me it seemed like she had some sense of what was going on and chose to leave rather than trying to help Sarah. That might be due partly to the scorpion tattoo guy. It seems like he turns to Sally to say like you're next. and then she leaves because she's trying to protect herself. But it's just, I guess, I don't know what my point is, but just I think it's interesting to show a character who you think would try to help her friend but chooses not to, in the interest of preserving her own safety,

just kind of demonstrating the complicated nature of all of this. I felt that, I mean, I appreciated. that because that's I think sort of to me the reveal in the rape scene everything else is stuff that we already know yeah I think the one thing that we don't know is that Sally is not exactly telling the truth about her having no idea this was going on right which to be fair there is a Sally analog in the Cheryl LaRouca case who genuinely didn't know what was going on so that's an intentional change she had left by the time that began okay so it's inspired by but not a one to one but yeah and and that we see we're shown why like you're saying kately we're shown why even though the

movie doesn't excuse it we see that she has two young kids we see that she is working a wait staff job we see we're given the explanation as to why she is not willing to stick her neck out for her friend which feels relevant because again it's like sally i think is a character that probably people saw themselves in sure and And makes it so that, yeah, like not all bystanders are necessarily can, you know. Right. Yeah. And then there's another woman who we see for the first time in the flashback who seems to be hanging out with one of the men who would go on to rape Sarah.

And this woman seems to be jealous of the attention that Danny is paying to Sarah. And she sees Sarah dancing, quote unquote, provocatively. and her actions and words imply that she thinks that Sarah is a slut and then leaves because of it. She doesn't want to see the quote unquote show that she thinks that Sarah is putting on. So I guess my point is, yeah, I think this movie does a good job of showcasing the different mentalities that are all pretty much byproducts of rape culture that people of all generally can harbor often in different ways, but that there are gradients, like shades of gray, I suppose. I agree. And I think the last thing I have to say, and this is just, I mean, and again, I know that

not one movie can do everything. But worth mentioning that, you know, this movie is very white, especially because it's pulling from a story that took place in a far more diverse area. People talk about, I mean, I will never stop dying on the hill of the fact that Massachusetts is way more diverse than it's portrayed in media. But that it is a very white movie and that non-white women are disproportionately affected by sexual violence. And so there is this tendency that is not the fault of any one survivor that white women's stories tend to be centered in these discussions. This was a big component of how we talked about Me Too. And so I think it's worth mentioning that. And I also think that that decision was very likely a strategic one.

Going back to what you were saying before Sarah, of like this movie was like so unlikely that it was going to get made. It almost didn't see the light of day. And I feel like that unfortunately because of how media around sexual violence works, works, they quote unquote, played it safe where they could, where they centered whiteness and men are at the top of the production on paper, even though Sherry Lansing and Don Steele are really the people who make it happen. So just for, I mean, I'm so glad that this movie exists. Don Steele also, like, this is a totally separate thing, but like just a fascinating person.

She unfortunately died in her early 50s, but her, the three movies, she pushed. through that aren't this are flash dance top gun and fatal attraction oh my god she was all over the damn place she was so we would be living in a totally different world if not for her she really and she wrote a memoir that i am actually kind of curious about yeah great title they can kill you but they can't eat you wow um it's like okay i i just i think this is my first time learning about her oh sister act two back in the habit is Well, wow. Let's not forget, honey, I blew up the kid, cool runnings.

Oh, great. She just, what, she, oh, and she also dated Richard Gear pre-fame and Martin Scorsese post-Isabella Rissolini divorce. So, I just wanted to introduce a new diva into the chat. Because I, and I want to read, they can kill you, but they can't eat you. I want you to read that to me. I would be so happy to. Okay, thank heavens.

Yeah. Yeah, and I guess this is, I don't know, the story of how this movie got to us also feels like proof that in industries controlled by men, including law and entertainment and law, law entertainment, I guess. Men will never stop claiming that something clearly for women is for nobody. Yes.

Because they don't think anything is happening inside of women's heads, I guess. and therefore why would we need movies? And they will never not be surprised. And so at least that's consistent. Yay. Is there anything else anyone wants to talk about? I love Jody Foster. I love Jody Foster too.

And I guess I love Kelly McGillis now. I have a new appreciation for her. Also, her character is supposed to be 29. What? I know. Yeah, she says she was born in 59. I feel like that's based on, the Hollywood law that no one, or I guess

28 actually if it's set in 87. I know that no one in a movie is allowed to be over the age of 30 except for like Sharon Moonstruck, but this is a big case for her at such a young age. Really? I didn't realize that. She needed to spend a few years at legal aid or something and then maybe work her way up to this,

but whatever. She did a good job ultimately, I suppose. I guess the last thing I wanted to share from the oral history was that, I mean, that at least for the people involved in this film, making this movie was an extreme net positive. Kelly McGillis says that as of 10 years ago, there were still

people who had come up to her, mostly women, who cited seeing the movie and the movie success as a reason that they felt either motivated to, if not pursue justice in a conventional sense, speak about it with people.

So, like, I think that this is definitely an under-discussed stepping stone movie toward what you would hope would be more movies. But I do think, you know, stuff like the accused, I don't know, do you get, I may destroy you if you don't have the accused? Like, I'm not sure. I think that it definitely has an important place in history. And just one more Don Steele fact, because I'm now obsessed with her. This is a quote from Jonathan Kaplan that I'm just like, oh, my God.

Okay, Dawn was pregnant when we were getting ready to shoot. Then she was let go from Paramount during the shoot, fired while she was in labor. That's the environment we were dealing with at the time. So it's just the director trying to say everyone was so misogynist that it was like you had to be there. Getting fired from your executive job while in labor. So just to, yeah. Oh, my God. Well, let's sit with that.

And yet we still got the movie. We still got the movie. I mean, and it seems kind of. like a miracle that we did. Yeah. I wonder what that baby is up to right now. Oh, I hope she's well. I hope she's well.

She also, yeah, also her dad was a bodybuilder. Like I, who knows? A lot of interesting stuff with her. Donna Steele. Donna Steele. Her last name wasn't Steele. Her dad just went by Man of Steel and she's like, okay, I'm using it. She sounds awesome, dude.

I have no idea if you're kidding or not. No, it's true. It's true. Oh, really? I thought you were. kidding. Yeah. This is like when you told me that Pilates was invented by a guy who's last name was Pilates. No,

oh my God, that's my favorite detail ever, Joseph Pilates like, sure. Hey, it's me, Joe Pilates. No, her last name was Tarlow and then she's like, actually it's steel. Yeah. Which, anyways, she's fascinating.

Does it pass the vectal test? Yes. Yes, it does. It does. A lot. A lot. Absolutely. As far as our nipple scale goes, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. This movie feels ahead of its time for me. I agree. I mean, there are so many parallels between what happens in this movie and the current conversation around the Cornell case and many, many other rape and sexual assault cases.

One would hope that this movie from almost 40 years ago wouldn't feel. so relevant and familiar today. But unfortunately, history just keeps repeating itself. And so many people have learned nothing when it comes to what consent is and how not to victim blame and just the horrors of rape culture in general. So that doesn't feel great. We didn't talk much about this, but I appreciate that it also examines how class plays into people trying to invalidate Sarah as a witness and as a survivor,

including, it seems to some degree, her attorney, Catherine, but then Catherine comes around. But yeah, I appreciate that class is examined. But yeah, there's just so many interesting things about this movie. The brutal rape scene at the end, I wish had been handled. differently, but also there are probably many people, parentheses, men who need to see something like that to understand. Yeah. All this to say, I think I'll give it three and a half nipples.

And I'll give them all to Jody Foster, the end. I want to give it four, I think. I think given, I'm grading it, I guess, on a curve, given it's time. time. I had a hard time with the rape scene, but I guess that makes sense. I, yeah, I don't, I don't really have anything else to say, but I just want to say to listeners who are, who are struggling right now and struggling to figure out where their head is at and, you know, on top of whatever your personal stuff is, just the, I think, very painful deja vu of seeing these processes happen over and over that it's like you know stay angry protect your peace and protect your peace

and stay angry i think um you can we can we can we can do these things at the same time yeah it's a it's a it's a long fight yeah so i'm going to give four nipples i'm going to give one to jody one to kelly one to don and one to sherry the four women who kind of make this movie possible nice Yeah, Sarah, how about you? I think, yeah, the same four nipples on a curve, but I'm going to give all mine to Jody Foster because I'm very biased. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Again, difficult conversation, so we really appreciate your willing to do this. And we appreciate all you do.

So thank you so much. We love you. We love you. I love you both. Thank you so much for having me. Always. And, yeah, I'm just glad. glad to be all here together in this moment, even if we are on the same log as before.

Yeah. We come to this place to feel like shit. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Of course. Where can people check out your work, follow you online, etc? Oh, you can, you can check out my work over at You're Wrong About.

It's a podcast about all kinds of history that I find interesting. including the stories of maligned women and jamie just did some bonus episodes with me talking about the memoirs of mary joe but a fuco a book called getting it through my thick skull and we um jamie was so wonderful yeah sarah i've just i don't know we'll we'll never stop uh extolling how how wonderful all of your work is and just i don't know your rugged butt really has like shaped me and so many people and And you are so loved. Indeed.

I'm so happy to just get to, yeah, to get to talk about whatever's happening in the world with you. And, yeah, thank you both so much. Thank you. And listeners, we love you. Yeah, it feels weird to plug at the end of this. Find us on Instagram. Find us on our Patreon, aka Matrion, where you can get two bonus episodes a month. That's the best way to support the show.

And with that, let's have a good lay on the floor, shall we? Oh, gosh, please. Let's have some horizontal time and decompress. And if you're Jody Foster, let me make you lunch. I would get up really early to do it. Oh, yes. And with that, Jody Foster, get in Sarah's inbox. I know.

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