The Bechdel Cast - The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005)

Episode Date: December 25, 2025

This week, Jamie and Caitlin open the wardrobe in the spare room and head into Narnia to discuss The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (2005)!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? Who catfishes a city? Is it even safe to snort human remains? Is that the plot of Footloose? I'm comedian Rory Scoville,

and I'm here to tell you, Josh Dean and I have a new podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. It's called Crimeless, a true crime comedy podcast. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse

and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. It doesn't matter how much I fight. It doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in. Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened?

My sister was y'all 22 times. A police officer, right? But what do you do when the monster is the man in blue? This dude is the devil. He'll hurt you. This is the story of a detective who thought he was above the law until we came together to take him down. I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die.

I got you, I got you, I got you. Listen to the girlfriends, untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I got you. I know he has a reputation, but it's going to catch up to him. Gabe Ortiz is a cop. His brother, Larry, a mystery Gabe didn't want to solve until it was too late. He was the head of this gang. You're going to push that line for the cause.

Took us under his wing and showed us the game. as they call it. When Larry's killed, Gave Must Untangle a dangerous past, one that could destroy everything he thought he knew. Listen to the brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Caitlin. Yes, Aslan.

You got it. Do not cite the deep podcast to me, which I was there when it was recorded. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I wrote that one down. Thank you. Actually, we should pause because I'm assuming the listener is applauding. Yeah.

Thank you. Uproarious laughter. I'm like Cynthia Arrivo. Uproarious. Get it? It's a lion. Yes. Mm-hmm.

I'm doing what Cynthia. Reva does at the end of the wizard and I, literally pause for applause, assuming that everyone is cheering. And she's right, and so am I. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Applaus, applause. Clap, clap, clap. And now calm down, everyone. Settle down. Come on. Easy, easy. Plot incoming. Welcome to the Bextel cast. My name is Jamie. My name is Caitlin, and this is our The Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe episode. Get ready because we're all going to become Christians today. We're going to become a lion-fearing, whatever.

So this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens and the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. But Caitlin, what the hell is that? I'll tell you what, CS Lewis wouldn't give a rat's ass, but let's let the people know. Sure. It is a medium metric created by our best friend. In the whole wide world, Alison Dectal, there are many versions of the test. The one that we use is, do two characters of a marginalized gender, have names? Do they speak to each other?

And is there conversation about something other than a man or a male lion? Exactly. Yes, Liam Neeson. And we'll talk about it. Lion Neeson. We'll talk about Lion Neeson. Is that anything? Lion Neeson was very impactful to me.

it's so funny when I was trying to think of what is another I feel like we've talked about it recently a movie that's trying to make you religious but then just ends up making you horny because that is my experience of this movie this movie I did not successfully make me believe in like the Bible but it did successfully make me horny I'm trying it'll come to me but there's another like important movie text to me that is ultimately trying to be like Jesus is real right and you're just sort of like oh I was like I mean, was it Jesus Christ Superstar? Oh, yes.

Okay. Yeah. It is like something that you're like, oh, I'm supposed to be thinking about the Bible, but I'm actually just thinking about having sex with Judas. Kind of the opposite of the intended effect. Sure, sure. Anyways, this is our Chronicles of Narnia episode. If you are a member of our Patreon, aka Matrion, and you should be,

this is a quick plug, $5 a month, gets you two bonus episodes of the Bechtelcast a month on a theme of yours or sometimes our choosing depending on the month. There's over almost 200 episodes of backlog. So if you have, if there's a movie we haven't covered on the main feed, there is a really good chance we have covered it over on the Matriot. And it's a very fun community. We've been doing it forever. And yeah, it's the holiday season. Give a gift to yourself. Give a gift to someone else. But so we, this, the genesis of this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's, that's a part of the Bible. Yep, holding for applause. Once again, yeah. Again, calm down, calm down everybody. Okay, okay. More revelations in coming, folks. Whoa. Okay, I'm going to tap up pretty soon because I don't really know. I was like, can I name another book of the Bible? No, I can't. I don't know.

John? John? Is there a John in there? There is. There's definitely a John. Yeah, name. It's like, whatever. It's just like names of the Bible. It's like calling Role in a second grade classroom in like 1995, basically. Yeah. Anyways. What were, oh, so this began over on the matriad. We were thinking of some wintery holiday-coated movies that we haven't covered over the years.

And Narnia, there was just such a ridiculous appetite for this movie that we were like, we got to bring it to the people. Much like the word of Christ. We need to bring it to the people. Yeah, we're missionaries in that way. We are. You're podcast missionaries. Oh, God. You know what? I bet that there are people who say that with complete sincerity. Oh, yeah. Well, we'll get, we'll get into it. I had to listen to a lot of

Christian podcasts to prepare for this. Oh, my. And some were actually very helpful. In any case. So this started on the Matrion. So we're, we're covering this here, but we are just to close the loop on the plug, covering two other holiday classics over on the Matrion that our community really wanted to hear about those being the Family Stone, R.I.P. Diane Keaton and Black Christmas, RIP, I have to assume a good chunk of that cast. It's a pretty old movie. It was made in the 70s. Yeah. But two movies that, I don't know, like we've been talking about this a lot as we approach our 10 year anniversary. There's a lot of movies that you would think we would have covered by now, but we haven't. And we're having a great time. This movie included.

Indeed. Caitlin, what is your, what is your history with this movie and also just the Narnia expanded universe? Sure. So at my house, growing up, we had the box set of all of the C.S. Louis Narnia books. Same. Same. Is the one that you have at your apartment, your childhood copy? Because I think I had the same set.

It is not my childhood copy. I don't know where or when I acquired this, but there is a little price tag on it. that says 80 cents. Damn. So I think this must have been like... That's the going price for the Word of Christ? Brutal. Brutal.

It's the one with like the little like Ariel's shot of like Mr. Tumnus, right? Yeah. And he's got his little umbrella and his packages. Yeah. I think this was maybe purchased at a yard sale or something for 80s. I don't know why it only cost 80 cents. That feels right. But that like, whatever.

That was my childhood. I had the box set. I don't know. I have that. But for some reason, I think it was a street book. I have all seven in a paperback with Tilda Swinton on the cover. And so that was what I used for prep. And it felt good.

Nice. Yeah. So I did read the line, the witch, and the wardrobe when I was a kid, I don't remember what age. And then the only other book in the series that I read was Prince Caspian. And I remember liking it more than I liked the line, the witch, and the wardrobe. robe. Really? Yeah, but I couldn't tell you a single thing about it. I have no idea what it was about. I can tell. I was just like, I think I like this more than the other one. It is more like adventurey, I feel like. It is, yeah. Prince Caspian is good. I don't know. I wanted to,

so for listeners, just for context, like this, whatever, I mean, like, we're not apologizing. This is, people write their like doctoral feces on C.S. Lewis and these books, there are so many things we could have done to prepare for this and we just you know it's a weekly show we weren't able to do all of it i wish i had had time to rewatch because i'm honestly not sure if i've seen prince caspian i know i've seen voyage of the don treader because baby will polter is in that oh and yeah this was just a series that made me very horny as a kid um so okay so you so you read uh you read two of the books yes but i remembered the line the witch in the wardrobe and its whole narrative far better because I think it just like the cultural osmosis of this story is like just way more in the zeitgeist.

For sure. So I was pretty familiar with the story going into watching this movie, the 2005 adaptation. What I had never seen and I don't think had ever even knew existed was the 1988 BBC miniseries. I'm so curious why this was the route. this was your this was your over-the-top prep route what drew you to this series i'll tell you why okay the the comments on the matrion poll when it was clear that this movie was like winning by a large margin yeah to the point where we were like we can't even pay all this it feels wrong right right a lot of people in the comments were like well you also have to talk about the 1988 bbc miniseries and i was like

what I had no idea that was even a thing because I grew up in America god damn it I'm not watching BBC that's none of my business and so and so I took it upon myself to watch this BBC adaptation and I had the time of my life really this damn thing the costumes it is I would say it's not like good but it's so it's campy it's ridiculous the effects are horrible. The costumes are horrible. Every clip you sent me more baffling than the last. I do want to watch this because it sounds like it just is like, you know, we have $40. Let's see what we can do. It seems simultaneously very low budget and very high budget because they're like the costumes and the sets seemed expensive, but then also the camera does not move. They put the camera in one place

and then they never like there are no dolly shots there's no crane shots there's no like maybe a pan or a tilt here and there but it's just like this stationary camera and then stuff happens in front of it anyway so as i was watching that i was simultaneously rereading the book yeah so i would like read a few chapters of the book and then watch the like corresponding episode of the miniseries to prep for this. And I did that about 10 days ago. Okay. And whatever, I'll say a few more things maybe about the BBC adaptation, but it's a very, very loyal adaptation. It's basically identical story beats. Most of the dialogue from the BBC version is directly like word for word lifted from the book. So it's a very, very, very faithful adaptation. But anyway, so I'm jumping all over the place. I read the book

as a kid, I saw this movie, the 2005 adaptation, around the time it came out, I think probably in theaters. I was like, that's fun, but it's no Lord of the Rings. So, well, which, and these, these two writers are very connected. They're BFFs. Yeah. The boys. They're, and they're always bitching at each other about something or other. Did you know that C.S. Lewis is the basis for, oh my god what is the lord of the rings tree character tree beard tree beard that's c s lewis oh fun okay yeah and did chariotelkeen's like look i think you're annoying you're loud and annoying this is you you're a tree and he's like oh that's pretty awesome thanks king yeah anyway so the movie i thought was fine the main thing i remembered was tilda swinton witch oh so impactful tell me about it yeah

so i saw the movie once around the time it came out i watched it again with our our friend Bryant last year around the holiday season. And then I watched it again twice to prep for this episode. So that is my C.S. Lewis Narnia experience. Awesome. What about yours, Jingy? So I believe I was, I was, hmm, I read all the books. I had the books as a kid. I have like a very strong memory. I think it would have been before the movie came out. maybe even in anticipation of the movie, either right before or right after. I'm pretty sure before, though. We would go up to Maine to see my grandma, and I really felt the need to hide from my family as much as possible.

And this was a big deal for me because when we went up to Maine to visit my grandma, I could have my own room that had a door. And at my house, I had my own room, but it didn't have a door. Right. And so any level of privacy, I would go into a room. bring a bajillion books with me, close the door, walk it, and really just come out for food. And it was my family really did not like this quality about me. But I, you know, I didn't want to hang. I wanted to read.

I remember there was just like a trip where I locked myself in that room and I read all seven Narnia books. Wow. Yeah. And had the time of my life doing it. I'm sure I missed out on some really beautiful family memories. We'll never know. But I remember reading all of them. I definitely like Lion Witch in the wardrobe the best.

I don't have a really like descent. And there are a couple that I'm like, this one is boring. I read through some of the synopsies just like jog my memory. I like, you know, I'm kind of like, I like the ones with the pevencies in it. And the ones without the, when we start to stray away from the pevencies, I'm maybe not as interested. It took me forever to realize that that's their last name. I was like, what? And then it, yeah, it's the four kids.

right yeah yeah yeah when it's not the four kids and like you get into there's like a character name jill pole who comes in at some point there's a character named polly there's a used to scrub that's a little will polter character that's their cousin okay so there's like this whole expanded universe of kids because there are like narnia i don't know whatever we'll talk about it because narnia has deep ties into like christian storytelling and biblical storytelling which i don't think i was really a aware of when I was reading them. I definitely was not. I think maybe after the movie came out. So when the movie came out, I was 12 and anything would make me horny. And so I think I never, I'm so surprised I haven't brought it up before. Maybe I did years ago or something. But my two like important

horny posters I had as a kid were the Alfred Molina Spider-Man 2 poster. Duh. Easy. But I also had the Chronicles of Narnia poster with the big Aslan on top and I would kiss Aslan before I would go to bed but it wasn't it wasn't a sexual thing it was like I just respected him so much I don't know what it was

I would kiss the poster before bed that's all I can say incredible yeah I had a crush on basically everyone in this movie even though it's kind of boring it is like a very vibey like ear sleep kind of but you're also awake I would kiss Aslan

I kind of had a crush on Edmund, even though he's a menace to society. Oh, this little shit. Definitely had a crush on Tilda Swinton and definitely had a crush on James McAvoy, Mr. Tumnus. I was like, I was all in on James McAvoy, Mr. Tumnus. I was like, what if I was the little ingenue that met Mr. Tumnus? And then he was like, you want to be my best friend? Like, it was, I know I'm not alone there. I know I'm not alone there.

Do not contact me if you feel similarly, but you know, you're seen. Sure. So, yeah, I had a crush on everyone in the movie, really liked it. But then I guess it's like, I think of this movie series as like the first movie it was really big. And then the second ones, I like, I don't even think I saw the second ones in theaters. Yeah, they like diminishing returns on the sequels. And then they didn't finish.

I mean, and now I'm very curious because Greta Gerwig is making a huge Nardia movie that's going to come out next year. Yeah. And, you know, I'll be there. I'll be there. I'm curious what she does with it. I don't think you can really top James McAvoy, Mr. Tumnus, but I invite her to try. I invite her to try. And so for my prep for this, I revisited the movie. I had reread the book last year. But I went more in on the symbolism side and the CS Lewis lore side. So we can sort of talk through it a little bit. I feel there's, Again, C.S. Lewis, there's just like so much stuff written about him. And with a short amount of time, it's actually weirdly hard to research because a lot of the sources you find are very Christian. And so there is like an extreme tilt to the way his work is presented. So it's hard to find what I would consider to be like slightly more objective sources.

But I did my best. Sure. C.S. Lewis, I'll tell you what, a weird man. A weird, weird man. I, it's hard for, and also like listeners, if you have, you know, there's been many biographies written of him. So these are just broad strokes. My takeaway was that he is prejudiced in many of the ways you would expect for someone born in 1890. But not in all of the ways you would expect. I think that the main things are, and they're also, you know,

prejudices that bear out in Christianity where there's like something called like the CS-Lewis foundation or whatever like as a Christian organization where they're still trying to figure out whether they're accepting gay people or not like that that kind of like religious homophobia like yeah that does feel present and and as we'll talk about his views on women fluctuate throughout his life in a way that is kind of interesting okay and then there's just some fun facts that I was like hmm hmm can I tell you my see yes lewis fact that really i was like what's going on there please okay so his mother passed away when he was quite young i think he was like 10 11 something like that then he because he was born in

1890 he of course is drafted into world war one makes friends with this guy named patty and patty and him make a pact and patty is like if i die in world war one will you make sure that my mother is taken care of? And C.S. Lewis is like, oh, yeah, I don't have a mom. Like, that's really nice. Then, unfortunately, R.A.P. Patty, Patty dies at war. And then C.S. Lewis enters a three-decade long romantic relationship. With Patty's mom?

With Patty's mom. Whoa. It's a lot going on. It's like, yeah. And kind of what I was enjoying, as I, because I, I watched a like, whatever, like, A&E biography on C.S. Lewis. I read a lot about his life. And really no one knows the right way to frame this because it's so weird where it's like

they're two consenting adults, but it feels pretty fucking weird. But anyways, he, um, he was 21. She was 46 and they were together until her death. Wow. So he just, he's just hooking up with his friends. I was like, certainly that was not what Patrick. had in mind. That is not what he meant when he said, take care of my mom.

Are we risk? Yeah, take care of her. Come on. Wink. No. I just don't, you know, I, is it, you know, I guess he's not around to complain, but I was like kind of disrespectful to Patty to be like, I'll take care of your mom already.

Whatever, you know, it seems like they were happy. And then later in his life, C.S. Lewis, he got married again. Oh, yeah, the other work of C.S. Lewis that I've read, that I actually really liked was he wrote this very short book after his wife but he was never married to Patty's mom

they just had a thing for 30 years and then he did get married not too long like when he was older to this woman that a lot of people were like is that that's why I was like he kind of got cooler as he got older he married a divorced

Jewish American woman which basically everyone in his life was like you can't do that and he's like watch me but you're so Christian right right and then like he was like a hardcore Christian and yet I mean like many Christians uh was very loosey-goosey of like what applied to him and what didn't sure but in ways that seem mainly I mean whatever we'll get into he is certainly guilty of a fair amount of misogyny but in this marriage it seemed like it was very happy and that she was I don't know like it seemed really lovely and he wrote a book when she died pretty suddenly and it's called a grief observed and

And it's very similar to, like, Joan Didion's, like, the year of magical thinking, like, very written, like, in real time after losing his spouse. And I just think it's really beautiful. So if you're in grief mode, I would recommend it. But, yeah, weird guy. We'll talk more about him. That was, so I kind of went into the Lewis zone. I mean, it sounds like you had more fun, honestly. Yeah, I did none of that.

So thank you for doing that research. I really just watched that BBC miniseries and laughed. my ass off any time Mr. Beaver was on screen. He's so big. He's human-sized. He's so damn big. Because it's a human in a beaver costume, just waddling around, being like, I found them. I found the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve.

And you're just like, what is going on? God. What a gift. What a gift. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with the recap. I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's Attorney General is suing a Nashville doctor.

In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos. I was terrified. Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever. At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow. But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. It doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get.

None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the, My Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? And what is this? How is that not a story we all know? What's this? Where is that?

Why is it wet? Boy, do we have a show for you? From smartless media, campside media, and big money players comes crimeless. Join me, Josh Dean, investigative journalists. And me, Roy Scoville, comedian, as we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. We'll look into some of the silliest ways folks have broken the laws. Honestly, it feels more like a high-level prank than a crime. Who catfishes a city?

And meets some memorable anti-heroes. There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. Clap, if you think, she's a witch. And it freaks you out. He has x-ray vision. How could I not follow him? Honestly, I got to follow me. He can see right through me.

Listen to Crimless on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming. If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way. I said through your shot 22 times. The police, right? But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you.

I got you. I got you. I got you. I'm Nikki Richardson, and this is The Girlfriends, Untouchable. Detective Roger Golubski spent decades intimidating and sexually abusing black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence. This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down. I told Roger Galooski, I said, you're going to see my face to the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, Untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us.

Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the calls. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind

and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Here is the recap of the line, The Witch and the Wardrobe, 2005.

It is World War II. So four children, Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy are sent from London during the Blitz to safety in the English countryside to stay with a distant relative called the Professor, who lives in this huge old Downtonabee-ass mansion and the children start to settle in. Peter is the eldest, so he's like, you know, the responsible leader of the group.

Lucy is the youngest, so she's the baby. She wants to play games all the time. Lucy is a legend. I love Lucy. Wow. You love Lucy. Lucy. Wow. No one's ever said that before. I love Lucy. I also just remembered I loved the actress who played her. I just follows her on Instagram the other day. She's thriving. She's like a bisexual icon winning like theater awards in London. She's killing it.

Nice. But little Georgie Henley. Oh, I loved her. Her and her little Bob. Come on. She's cute. Yeah. She's so cute. Then there's Edmund, the second youngest. who is now basically like a what i always forget the like the names of the british conservative party he's basically he that actor scandarkeens is now like an advisor for english conservatives ooh yeah kind of a bummer well i mean based on his character of edmund i know it was all there surprised because it was all there i know he's he's canonically aligned with fascism always oh yeah yeah Yeah. Edmond is a little shit. That's his main character trait. And then Susan is there too. Oh, that's not nice to Susan. I mean, it's not, okay, it's not a reflection of how I feel about Susan. I like Susan. But I feel like the story is just like, and she's here as well. I do agree. I feel like if you like Susan, you kind of need to like build some head cannon for her. Because also, and we'll talk about this. She gets written out of later books in a pretty pointed way, which we can talk about after we talk about the movie.

Damn. Yeah. Okay. So those are the kids. One rainy day, Lucy suggests they play hide and seek. And she wanders into a mysterious spare room or spare oom with nothing inside but a large wardrobe. She goes inside the wardrobe and it's full of these like fur coats as well as an entire country. James McAvoy Toplis.

I'm like elbowing against the back of any cabinet as a 12-year-old being like, where is he at? Where is he at? But he was never in there. So this wardrobe is this like portal to this alternate dimension fantasy realm called Narnia. It's so awesome. It's right up there with like the entry into Oz for me of like entering another world and it feeling so like. practical and so magical and it's just it's just beautiful i love it great i love this shit right it's so well done and it's especially because like pretty soon after you're like entering kind of like

uncanny valley marvel territory but it's like it's just so pretty i love it and it's very cold and snowy and everything is snow covered and there's a lamp post that's like the landmark that lets you know that, oh, you're near the entrance of the wardrobe. Which legend has it that these, whatever, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, best friends. Like, J.R.R. Tolkien is one of the main motivating factors for C.S. Lewis to become a Christian because C.S. Lewis didn't become a Christian in a meaningful way until his 30s, but he was just hanging out with his boy, J.R.R. And J.R. got him in. to it. But I guess that whatever, J.R. Artokium was like, I bet you couldn't make a something like an

innocuous object feel really magical. And that's where the lamp post comes from. Huh. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And guess what? He did it. He did it. And he made feminist icon lamp post. And feminist icon Mr. Dundas. Right. Because the first being that Lucy encounters in Narnia is a faun named Tumnus and he's like oh my gosh are you a daughter of Eve a human child and she's like um yeah bitch what do you mean and he's like wow I've never seen a human before why don't you come to my house for tea so Lucy goes to Tumness's house he's but well he says he does not really say Tee though he gets this little girl to come to his house by being like I've got I've got pounds and some sardines at my house.

I was like, oh, right, right. He's like, there's toast and cake. And maybe if you're good, I'll bust out the sardines as if that's like a selling point. And then Lucy validates it. And she's like, well, if you've got sardines, I was like, wow. I like, this is like, I don't understand what's going on in the UK. British children begging for sardines. Loved sardines.

Wow, the one way to lure a child, a stranger luring a child into his home with a promise of sardines you're like what sure wow sure i guess i guess it was you know economic downturn you know it was hard and i i do we'll talk about this but i did appreciate i mean this is like more i feel like it's it's in the book but it's more like thoroughly grounded in the movie of like the children are you know displaced and you know they're separated from their mom and it's really sad there's a scene at the beginning of this movie where their mom takes them to a train station that kind of looks like Paddington Station and she puts these tags on them that basically say like here's the train stop that these kids are supposed to get off at and

here's their names and like who's supposed to come and collect them I think is like probably generally the information that was on these and it's very similar to in Paddington when Aunt Lucy puts the tag on him and it says please look after this bear and then he shows up at the train station in London. They really are kind of like four little bears being shipped out to the country. Yeah, it's just, it's sort of like the opposite journey, but it's the same sentiment as far as like these small children are displaced. Yeah.

They're refugees and they're like seeking safety. They are. Yeah. It really made me think more this time again, like, I don't know. I think if we have recorded this episode 10 years ago, I would have been extremely hostile to the like concept of faith as it's presented within these books but i don't know i don't know if it's just i'm older or whatever it is but like i do i did kind of appreciate it more this time around where it's like the grounding of like these kids are displaced from their family they're refugees

and they're like kind of looking for something to feel grounded in and believe in and so in the context of that you're like yeah it makes sense true yeah so mr tomness is like lucy i've got sardines at my house come on over and she's like you bet UK listeners would this work on you there yeah let us know please um and she's like hell yeah i'll do that so she goes to his house and eventually tomness confesses that he is in the employ of someone named the white witch who is an evil woman who has taken control of narnia she's the one who makes it always winter but never Christmas. Oh.

And she had instructed Tumnus to kidnap any humans he finds. And Tumnus reveals that he is actively kidnapping Lucy, but he's had a change of heart. And so he helps her get back home through the wardrobe back into the house. It's really sweet. And I feel like is a great sort of foregrounding of what I think, Susan, I agree with you, is like not a very well-rounded out or thought through character. but I really liked how Lucy from the very beginning is like I don't know like she she is effective she was like no you can't kidnap me look at me I'm so cute and then he's like damn you're right

you're right you got to go like that scene was was great yeah and then he's crying and she's like here's my handkerchief like you need this more than I do and they're besties and they're besties from that moment forth it's true so Lucy enters back through the wardrobe into the spare room and discovers that even though hours have passed in Narnia no time has passed in like her world and when Lucy tells her siblings about Narnia they don't believe her and Edmund especially is a shit about it but they like give her the benefit of the doubt they investigate the wardrobe but when they you know open it up it just seems like a a normal wardrobe.

One night, a short time later, a very determined Lucy goes into the wardrobe again. Edmund sees her and follows her. And this time, Narnia is back. It's there in the wardrobe. And we stay with Edmund as he starts to explore Narnia. And who does he immediately encounter but the white witch herself? literally the Satan insert Edmund

walks in and immediately I'd look and it's his vibes I'm just saying Lucy does not immediately attract Satan right yeah but Edmund is Judas or something and so well we'll talk about it like there I think a lot of people are like trying to figure out the one to one of Narnia and per C.S. Lewis he's like no it's not

yeah there's like definitely like Aslan is like obviously Jesus and the white witch is definitely Satan coded but like outside of that there's not a ton of one to one right so we meet the white witch played by Tilda Swinton and it's a white woman with dreadlocks so we're like we're like beware that's that's a true that is true that's a kind of a universal indicator of maybe do not trust yeah It is incredible to me that this is how an entire generation of children learned who Tilda Swinton was. I mean, this is absolutely how I learned who Tilda Switten was.

Oh, sure. Yeah. It's like right up there with like Antonio Banderas and Spy Kids with like an incredible way to introduce a child to an iconic actor. Mm-hmm. So good. Yeah. I love those. Yeah.

Perfect. We meet her as well as one of her servants played by Deep Roy. Mm-hmm. What we were just talking about on the Charlie on the Chocolate Factory. That's true. Slash Willie Wonka episode. The witch tells Edmund that she's the queen of Narnia and she gives him some magical Turkish delight, which puts him under a spell, which basically makes him even more shitty than he already is. Yeah.

But it's like, arguably, it didn't take a lot. Right. Yeah. And she tells Edmund to bring his siblings to her. her. If he does, she might make him Prince of Narnia. So he agrees. She leaves. And then Lucy shows up. She's been visiting with Mr. Tumnus again. And Lucy is delighted because now Edmund can vouch for Narnia existing to Peter and Susan. But when the time comes, Edmund betrays Lucy and says that she's making it all up. Ooh, he's dirty for that. I hate, if there's one bitch,

I hate who it's Edmund Pevency I hate that little asshole yeah and I kind of like due to reasons we'll talk about I kind of love Peter because Peter's like fuck Edmund Peter's team Lucy yeah yeah and so Lucy is devastated by this and Peter and Susan go to the professor who by the way is played by Jim Broadbent who plays oh wow Mr. Gruber in Paddington wow so the similarities keep piling up he's really great and his character um i don't remember i don't know like if you would capture this but his character whatever there's a whole like language in the wardrobe is the first book published in this series but it's the second canonically in the series when it's all written out in like chronology yeah yeah so chronel like story wise the what's his name what's the jim brabend character's name professor i don't even know if he has a more specific name He definitely does because... Oh, Professor Kirk.

Professor Kirk, if I did my research correctly, in the first book in the Chronicles of Narnia series, he is a boy in that book. And like, whatever, something, something, something, there's an apple tree. And with the wood from the apple tree, they make the wardrobe. So he, like, went to Narnia as a child. And the wardrobe has access to Narnia because it's made from Narnian... wood or whatever so when he's like he he ha ha tell me more about it it's because he's been there yeah that's that's heavily implied in this movie but unfortunately for my money one of the more boring books i'm like i don't need like tree lore i'm not worried about where it came from i need

tree beard aka c s lewis i don't remember um can i just like struggle with fantasy there's too many details is too hard for me. But I don't remember like what is the vibe of tree beard? Is it like passive aggressive to be like your tree beard or is it kind of like nice? He I think is a generally liked character but he talks really slowly because he's a tree. Therefore I find him kind of boring. Okay. Because CS Lewis was like from what I could tell was known to be like really loud and yappy oh but i don't know anyways there's a part in two towers when tree beard rallies a bunch of other trees or ants rather and they're like oh my god let's go kill sarmon and then they attack isengarde and destroy it and it's this really great sequence yeah remember that jamie no of course

i was like yeah um so up okay i'm sorry i just double checked my my source the one wiki to rule them all which says, yes, Treebeard's deep booming voice was directly inspired by C.S. Lewis's, Tolkien reportedly told Neville Coghill, God, that's a British name. Portish. That he modeled treebeard's voice off of the booming voice of C.S. Lewis, including the hum, rum, rum, mannerisms, and that, like, it, I guess, C.S. Lewis had a wide gate. Men are so weird. Anyways, let's go back to the story.

Okay, yeah, back to the story. I'm bored. So Peter and Susan, because Lucy is so insistent that Narnia is real, Peter and Susan go to the professor to be like, what do you think is going on? And the professor's just like, hey, maybe try believing your sister, you little shits. And they're like, oh, I guess. Yeah, and he's like, apologize. Apologize now, bitch.

Then one day, the kids accidentally break some shit in the house and they have to run away from Ms. McCready who works for the professor and they all end up in the spare room and they hide in the wardrobe and sure enough they all wind up in Narnia and Peter and Susan are like oh my God, so sorry Lucy that we did not believe you you were so true all along

and then Peter's like Edmund you're a little asshole you're a piece of shit and he's right he's right so then they all head to Mr. this house, only to discover that he has been abducted by the white witch's wolf police force for fraternizing with humans, aka Lucy. I do feel like there's like a little bit of, you know, real life fascism commentary going on here.

I particularly liked the line of like, I don't know, every kid has the moment realizing this. They're like, she'll be called the police? No, the police are doing this. And they're like, oh, so we have to do something about it. Yes. Yes. So the siblings decide to try to help Tumnus, but they're not sure what to do until Mr. Beaver shows up.

Your favorite. Your favorite. I do like Mr. Beaver. He brings them to his house where he lives with his wife, Mrs. Beaver. And what does she do? well she cooks them dinner because women be cooking even beaver women even beaver women to beaver women uh to be fair you know c s lewis was kind of dating his mom so it's kind of like it's c s louis's views on women and i'm not saying that they're excusable i'm just saying

they're they're they're very particular because he's fucking patty's mom while he's writing this book and you're just like what whatever they took in i guess during world war two they the two of them took in refugees, which I'm sure had some influence on this story. And there are stories of like, you know, like young people who passed through the house, kind of in like a boarding house capacity that were like, he was really lovely. And yeah, they had something. Who know? And they were together.

They were together all right. I forget where that was going. But yeah, I was like, it is like, it is very, you know, gender essentialist for him to be like, women be cooking but I'm like is he just thinking like mommies be cooking are all women mommies to him we don't know we don't know which is still misogynist but you know just food for thought and speaking of food they all sit down to mrs beavers fish and chips it's no sardines but i mean i was i was hungry i was like fish oh i love i love some fish and chips so during the dinner mr beaver tells the kids about aslan a lion who

is the rightful king of the land. He literally is like, while I've got you here, I'd like to tell you about my one and only Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You're like, oh no, I knew the food's never really free, you know? It comes at a price. It does. Aslan has been gone for many generations, but word has it that he's on his way back to Narnia to set things right. Mr. Beaver also tells them about a prophecy that when two sons of Adam and two daughters of Eve, the two genders, according to C.S. Lewis, sit on thrones at the castle care paravell that will defeat the white witch and restore peace to Narnia. So it's speculated that these four siblings are who the

prophecy is about. Right. Then Peter, Susan, and Lucy discover that Edmund has snuck out and abandoned them at some point during dinner, and he's heading to the White Witch's Castle. And the only thing that really can save any of them now is Aslan. So Mr. and Mrs. Beaver and the three remaining siblings set off toward Aslan. And this is where things start to. slightly depart from the book a little bit in that there's like some more... It's like an added action sequence kind of... Yeah, it's... I wouldn't say it's thrilling. It feels very like studio notes.

Like, we need... We need a big action setpiece right here. I'm not mad about it, but yeah. Yeah. So they set off and they're being chased by wolves, the wolf police. Acab includes these. wolf cops. Includes the Michael Madsen Wolf or whatever.

Oh, is that one of the voice actors? The voice actors, it's kind of funky. Yeah, Mr. Fox, Rupert Everett, didn't know that. Yes, of a Shrek 2 fame. Yes, well, because this movie, we have, how could we have gotten this far into it? Directed by Andrew Adamson, the director of Shrek Shrek 2. Yeah. And can I just say, that's range.

that is range. That is range. Shrek 2 comes out the year before this. I would never in a million years guess this is the same guy. I know. Yeah, where are the fart jokes in Narnia? I think, you know, and the restraint. The restraint he shows. And I don't know what I'm curious. Maybe it's like one of those things where it's like he just has so much money. He does, he's like whatever. Shrek residuals, you know, will feed my family for for centuries. But he really like, does. He does. He's like, he's like, So he does Shrek, Shrek, Shrek 2. Yeah. And then all three Chronicles and, no, no, directs the first two Chronicles in Arneum movies. Uh-huh. And then in 2012 directs a movie called Mr. Pip starring Hugh Lorry. I'm seeing that. And you're like, mm-hmm, okay, that's not my business.

And then a Cirque du Soleil movie. And that's kind of it. And that's like kind of it. I think it seems like he kind of pivots to, yeah, producing, because he produces other Shrek properties such as the Puss and Boots movies and the other Shrek movies. I would be curious at like how involved he actually isn't those though or if it's just sort of like he's Mr. Shrek so he's got to get a credit on everything Shrek forever. Right. Shrek forever after you could even say. Whoa. Which he mysteriously actually does not

have a credit on. No, he is the EP on Shrek forever after. Oh, is he? Yeah. Oh, yes it is. Yes, I am. Okay, shout out Andrew Adamson. Yeah. We were not familiar with your game, and then we were. And then you kind of stopped directing stuff, so. Well, more men should stop directing stuff. So I'm not mad about it. I'm not mad about it.

I'm just saying the range. Shrek 2, 2004, Chronicles, and R.A. 2005. It's impressive. It is. It is. And, yeah, there's a Rupert Everett voiced Fox character in this movie that I think is a complete edition, not in the book at all. And kind of like, for what?

I wasn't really sure what this. Yeah, because I didn't remember if I went through like a list of changes, but like you're sort of like, why? I don't know. I never want a movie to have more CG animals, so. Right, right, yeah. But I do want movies to have more Rupert Everett. So it's a toss up.

It's complicated. Oh, you know who we need to talk about? And this is like, there's obviously. There's not time right now, but Sarah Marshall was visiting this weekend, and I forget how we got to this, but are you aware of the movie Mr. Wrong? No. Okay. I was not aware of it either. It is a rom-com from 1996 starring Ellen DeGeneres pre-coming out.

Oh, right, this one. Okay. With Bill Pullman. I know the poster, but I've never seen the movie. Genuinely, one of the more unhinged things I've ever seen. I think we should cover it on the matrient at some point, because. people like absolutely hated it in its time and i'm not saying it's good i am saying i never knew what was going to happen like i i was on the edge of my seat you will not believe the list of things

that happen in the movie mr wrong okay the least of which is ellen degenerous peak ellen right but like i guess like the first phase of ellen yeah pre-talk show um she made two million dollars to be in that movie, and she does accidentally look into the camera twice. Incredible. 10 out of 10 on the rompometer, but, you know, someday it would be interesting to cover on the Bactylacast, because Bill Pullman is giving one of the weirdest performances I think I've ever seen. Whoa.

Okay, listeners, do you want that? Do you want us to talk about Mr. Wrong? We will. Because, yeah, I mean, we could. We could. I would watch it again. Okay. Good to know.

All right. Back to the Chronicles of Narnia. Okay, so most of the siblings are trying to get their way to Aslan and they're being chased by the wolves. Meanwhile, Edmund shows up at the Witch's Castle and she's pissed that he came alone since he was supposed to bring his siblings. And she's about to kill him or maybe turn him into stone because she loves doing that. Yeah, she kind of like, it feels like you have like a weird James McAvoy like Hans Solo Carbonite guy. Yeah. And Edmund's like, no, wait, the beaver mentioned something about Aslan.

So now the witch knows that Aslan is coming back to Narnia, and she really does not like this. So she takes Edmund to go looking for the others so that she can kill them to prevent the prophecy from coming true. And Edmund is finally starting to realize that maybe the white witch is not very nice and that maybe he shouldn't align. himself with fascism. He's a bit dense, isn't he? And really, like many before him, and, you know, I'm sure that this is commentary of some sort. He really only starts to be like, maybe I shouldn't do this when it starts to affect him personally. It's when he's thrown in jail that he's like, wait, maybe I don't like this. Right. Yes. Yeah. Meanwhile, the children and the beavers, they're still like journeying toward the stone table, which is like

Aslan headquarters, the witch catches up with them in her sleigh. But wait a minute, it's not the witch. It's Santa Claus. I always forget that Santa is in this movie. It is so weird that Santa is in this movie. I like, why is Santa in the movie? I mean, Santa knows God? Like, what do you mean? Well, Santa feels kind of, I think of Santa's kind of his own thing. He's a secular guy but no not here Santa knows Jesus and he's like Santa's like Jesus has returned like I don't know it's I see that scene and I'm like sure why not and and he gives them weapons he's like Merry Christmas bitch you're going to war

and then he's like yeah weird he gives Lucy a little dagger and some magic healing juice because women be healing not fighting as we will see he gives Susan a bow and arrow as well as a horn which is meant to like communicate with others because

the burden of communication is on women women be communicating women be witnessing the crucifixion like I got lost after a while of like what women be doing but yeah yeah Peter gets a big soul he's a 15 year old boy a lethal weapon and he's like I just again You're like things you're not used to seeing Santa doing.

Yeah. Is that what happened in that movie, read one? We don't know. Well, I do know because I saw it. Oh, because you, oh, I forgot you were the one, you were the one person who saw it. I really, I, that, maybe I'll, maybe I'll watch it this year if it's free because I like, those polar bears were, they're so jacked. Not that that's a selling point. I guess I made it sound like, I got to see it.

I don't really remember. what happened in that movie. I think that's probably... But I do remember not liking it. Lucy Loo's in it, right? I should watch it. How bad could it be? Lucy Loo's, I think, in it.

I remember the rock is in it. The rock is, well, yeah. He'll do anything. True. Yeah. Okay. So also Santa Claus's presence, his P-R-E-S-E-N-C-E, not his, like, gifts. Hold for applause.

Again. calm down everybody sorry we've been doing this for a while not anyone could do that his presence in narnia means that things are starting to change because before there was never Christmas but now there's Christmas and we also see the snow and ice starting to thaw and melt away and then there's this whole actiony set piece of the siblings trying to cross a river as the ice is breaking because it's melting and the wolves are chasing them but then they escape and they make it to the stone table where aslan has assembled an army of like centaurs and shit aslan comes out and of course he is the lion king and he takes peter aside and they gaze upon the land

and he's basically like simba my son everything the light touches will be yours It's true, and you're like, and I, and like, you know, 20 years later, the CGI isn't great. Liam Neeson does elect to just use his speaking. You mean Lion Neeson? Lion Neeson is using really just his speaking voice. Like, Grant was in the kitchen when I was watching the movie and didn't even need to look. He's like, I didn't know Liam Neeson was in this movie. I was like, well, yeah, I guess he's not really acting.

He's just talking. But I don't know what it was. Something about that damn lion. Something about that damn line. I just... You wanted to kiss him every night. I didn't just want to. I did.

You did. I did. Yeah. No accounting for it. Look, no judgment. Okay, so they're all hanging out now at the stone table. Then the wolf cops show up and they're about to attack Lucy and Susan. But then Peter saves them and he kills one of the wolves with his sword.

And so now he's a man or something. Yeah, it gets pretty gender essentialist in the back, in the back half. Yes. Meanwhile, the white witch is gathering an army of her own, and she's also making her way to the stone table. But before she gets there, a few of Aslan's soldiers appear, rescue Edmund, and bring him back to the others. And Aslan is basically like, don't worry, Edmund, you don't need to apologize. And kids, you just have to forgive your brother for what he did. Right.

And I mean, look, I guess if you're the other Pevenzies, what are you going to do? You can't really kill your 11-year-old brother. You know, you can't kill him, but you can, I don't know, hold him somewhat accountable for. Yes. I mean, I agree. them. I think at this point it gets tricky because we're like stuck in the Christianity of it all where it's like, okay, you know, he's been forgiven, like Jesus has forgiven him and we have to do the Christ-like thing and be like. Right. Even though it's like, yeah, he should be at least demoted. I'm not advocating that we kill the kid. But like, you know, he should feel, he should, this is not the kind of kid that I feel like learns a lesson from being shown grace and forgiveness by everyone. But, you know, whatever. Right.

Yeah. So then the four children prepare for the impending battle with the witch and her army. She shows up to be like, according to the laws of Narnia, something, something deep magic, any traitor belongs to me. So Edmund is my property. Well, and then he says, do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. And it's like, it is kind of iconic. I love that line.

It's pretty, it's pretty sick, yeah. He kind of, you know, he really showed her. Yeah. Then Aslan and the Witch have a private meeting where some negotiation is made in which Edmund is spared and no longer belongs to the witch. But in exchange for what we don't yet know. But we find out soon when that night Susan and Lucy can't sleep so they leave their tent. and see Aslan headed somewhere.

So they join him for a while, but then he has to go on alone, and Susan and Lucy watch from afar as he goes to the stone table where he is awaited by the witch and her minions who tie Aslan up, they taunt him, they shave him, and then the witch kills him. Because apparently he had bargained to save Edmund's life by agreeing to give his own. So he dies, and then the witch and her army leave.

Susan and Lucy approach Aslan's body. They're devastated. They're crying. There's mice. They're chewing through the ropes. Blah, blah, blah. Whatever. They then send word via the trees to their brothers that Aslan is dead.

So now Peter has to lead Aslan's army to war with the witch. who shows up on the battlefield looking like a lion herself. A really great outfit. Really great outfit. I don't really care about battle scenes in general. It's just not my culture. Same goes for the Lord of the Rings movies. I do feel like this movie was kind of marketed as Lord of the Rings Jr.

For sure. And I think kind of the books were as well, which is really funny that these two guys knew each other very well. and that J.R.R. Tolkien was sort of like, why do you write books for kids, you fucking loser? Even though The Hobbit, his first book was for kids. It just sounds like J.R.R. Tolkien was, I don't know very much about him. And again, someone that people write doctoral thesis on. So what do I know? But it seems like he had kind of a streak of pettiness, very British pettiness to him that seems kind of fun. We love men being bitchy to each other. And it seems like these.

two were really they were like both converting each other to various religions and huge bitches like they were it was a rich text between them but um anyways i like this battle scene more than i like other battle scenes i don't know i just wish that susan and lucy were allowed to participate in it because it seems like the it seems like the witch is the only woman on the battlefield question i think so really bizarre the one woman invited is satan which feels pointed right right right yeah also this battle's scene which is like a paragraph in the book yeah gets extended into this long sequence in the movie because it comes out in the wake of the lord of the rings movies so every movie like this needed a hashtag epic battle yeah which does

manage to make this children's movie two and a half hours long which is like pretty and also really violent like the violence in this battle scene is it's not bloody necessarily but you feel the impact war is hell kaitland war as hell i kind of liked that though i feel like even as a kid you're just like damn that i don't know but i also saw the lord of the rings movies by that time so maybe it felt less but it's yeah it definitely didn't feel like battle junior it was pretty gory for for kids it was graphic yeah yeah yeah okay so meanwhile the girls are not allowed to be in the battle. So they have stayed with Aslan's body all night.

And then they finally start to leave. And as they do, they hear this thunderous crack. And they look up and see that Aslan's body is gone. And the stone table is split in half. And then a resurrected Jesus, I mean, Aslan appears and explains that the deep magic says that if a willing victim who has committed no treachery is killed in a trader's stead, then death can be undone. And you're like, oh, cool, he knew that hack and no one else did. So, yeah, really convenient for this specific story. I think for stuff like this, this is where, and this is like,

you know, we won't get into it because it's like so pedantic and weird. But there are certain, even though like this book is these or these books in general are pretty massively popular in many Christian circles there are still hardcore people that are like Jesus would never be a lion that's pagan and the fact that they say deep magic even the word magic makes some you know like super hyper religious people like lose their mind I'm like he made Jesus into a lion that is net good for your project you to chill out true Yeah. Okay, so then Aslan takes the sisters to the witch's castle where she has a whole courtyard full of beings that she has turned to stone, including Tumnus. And then Aslan breathes his hot lion breath on them, and that brings them back to life. Yeah, kind of fun. And then back on the battlefield, the witch is turning all of the good guys to stone with her wand. So Edmund, destroys the wand but then she stabs Edmund so he's dying then Aslan shows up with everyone

that he had brought back from being stone and then Aslan attacks and kills the witch in what should be like the big climax of the movie but it feels very very anti-climactic to me which is wow because like you're saying the buildup is massive yeah and then the yeah the big kill you're like blink and you'd miss it. But, you know, Edmund got stabbed, so it could be worse. And he's dying. So Lucy gives him some of her magic healing potion that Santa Claus gave her, which is a ridiculous sentence to say.

Amazing. And then he is absolutely fine now because this story is obsessed with bringing people back from the dead or near dead. Then the four siblings are crowned the kings and queens. of Narnia at the castle of Care Paravelle, just like the prophecy foretold, and peace is restored to Narnia. Tadda. And then Aslan fucks off to somewhere else because he's God or Jesus or something, and he's

got other things to do. But he'll be back one day, just like they are always telling us. And I like how Mr. Tumnus is sort of tasked with having to explain that. He's like, yeah, you know, Jesus. He's just kind of like, we don't know. Maybe we'll see him. Maybe we won't. And then he's like, all right, do you want any more sardines or whatever?

Yeah. And then we get that little moment with Jim Broadbent where he's like, he-he, maybe you'll go back someday. Oh, yes. So the last beat here, or the last few beats here are that the siblings rule over Narnia for a couple decades. Yeah. They become adults, and one day they're out hunting in the woods, and they happen upon the lamppost

near the entrance to Narnia. And they're like, hmm, that's kind of familiar. What's all this? And then they go and they find the coats and the next thing they know, they're tumbling out of the wardrobe, except they're back to being children and no time has passed. So imagine, like, growing into adulthood, living this whole life. as like, whatever, like imperial ass thing in Narnia. Living out an entire fantasy.

It is interesting that they make that detail because, again, like, we'll get into it. But like, Susan later stops going to Narnia. And I'm sort of like, well, yeah, I mean, like possible that she's over it. It sounds like she's really put in a lot of time there. Yeah. But they make it out to be this big, well, we'll talk about it. but they make it out to be this big thing. I'm like, you know what?

You're allowed to move on. Sure. But yeah, it's just so weird that like they grow into adulthood. They're like in their 30s maybe. And then they revert back to childhood. Yeah. And they're like, oh, my dad, it's still World War II. Like, yeah, because like no time has passed.

So they're still at the professor's house. And the professor comes in and says, basically, welcome back from Narnia. Mm-hmm. Did you have a nice time? Because he's been there, too, is what it's implied. The end. The end. So let's take another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss.

I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse. And the patients who banded together in the. chaos that followed. We have some breaking news to tell you about. Tennessee's attorney general is suing a Nashville doctor. In April 2024, a fertility clinic in Nashville shut down overnight and trapped behind locked doors were more than a thousand frozen embryos.

I was terrified. Out of all of our journey, that was the worst moment ever. At that point, it didn't occur to me what fight was going to come to follow. But this story isn't just about a few families' futures. It's about whether the promise of modern fertility care can be trusted at all. It doesn't matter how much I fight. It doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get.

None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? And what is this? how was that not a story we all know what it what's this you where is that why is it wet boy do we have a show for you from smartless media campside media and big money players comes crimeless join me josh dean investigative journalists and me roy scoville comedian as we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals we'll look into some of the silliest ways

folks have broken the laws honestly it feels more like a high level prank than a crime. Who catfish is a city? And meet some memorable anti-heroes. There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. Clap if you think, she's a witch. And it freaks you out. He has x-rayed vision.

How could I not follow him? Honestly, I got to follow him. He can see right through me. Listen to Crimless on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? I just fell and started screaming. If you lost someone you loved in the most horrific way.

I said through you're y'all 22 times. The police, right? But what if the person you're supposed to go to for help is the one you're the most afraid of? This dude is the devil. He's a snake. He'll hurt you. I'm Nikki Richardson,

and this is The Girlfriends, Untouchable. Detective Roger Glute, Lipsky spent decades intimidating and sexually abusing black women across Kansas City, using his police badge to scare them into silence. This is the story of a detective who seemed above the law until we came together to take him down. I told Roger Galoopsky, I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, untouchable, on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast.

Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it.

When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back.

All right. Where do we start? I feel like we've started. I mean, we've, like, touched on a lot of my bigger notes, like, story-wise for this, which is that, like, I don't know. Like, it's not as bad as it could be, I guess, for a movie that's, like, pretty faithfully. adapting a book from 1950 but i mean i think that the the big sort of sweeping things going on here are it falls down like very very very traditional gender lines yes gender lions you might even say i guess with the except the white witch there's like a little more going on there but

not necessarily in a positive way but if we're talking about the kids i'm sort of of two minds about it, right? Where it's like, I was surprised that the girls were doing as much as they were for a book of this age, but there are those broad, like, they are not allowed to go to battle. They are sort of tasked with the emotional burdens of, I read that, like, Susan and Lucy in the, like, religious read of this book, you know, are supposed to almost like represent Mary Magdalene of like witnessing the death of Christ and then like having to and then witnessing his resurrection. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. But anyways, you know, I think the big thing is they don't get to go to war. Susan's character, I thought was very kind of, she's constantly

scolded for like thinking too hard. Yeah. Where, you know, Peter. I mean, Peter and Susan, it's like, in some ways, it's like just an antagonistic sibling relationship. They're the two eldest there's a moment that I couldn't even tell how intended it was but towards the beginning when the kids are being put on the train where their mom is referring to Peter as a man and saying to look out for everyone and Susan is referred to as a girl and it seems to kind of bother her like I think that she wants to take more of a leadership role maybe this is me head canning it but like it seems like she wants to take more of a leadership role that Peter has been given as like quote unquote the man of the house, which I do think it is intentional.

He clearly is struggling with like he wants to fight in a war like his father, right? And like that is presented pretty unambiguously. I don't think that there's a lot of thought into it. But like, you know, it makes sense that he then is very quick to enlist in the Narnia war or whatever because he wants to be like daddy. He's like, oh, well, Santa Claus gave me. a sword, so I have to use it. But I will say, I don't think that this movie boils down to being like fathers and sons like you would expect.

True. It is kind of like about Jesus and a bunch of kids. Yeah, lions and children. And I think there is, or I think of the four kids, Lucy is sort of the most memorable. And also, I think, in the world of the books, because she becomes the protagonist of three out of the seven books and the other kids sort of fall by the waistside a stars born 2018 um but whatever just keeping it focused on this i i like that lucy is the kid who discovers nardia who sticks to her guns about it exists and that her siblings with the exception of edmund who we hate

apologize to her and you know like see her worth and value throughout So I don't know. I mean, I think the big thing for me is Susan being underwritten and the girls are not allowed to participate in the big action piece. But that's more of a criticism of the movie than the book because the book is like the battle scenes are so short. Right. The movie takes a lot of liberties with the battle scenes. So it easily could have made adjustments to be more inclusive of the girls, but it doesn't. And this is what like most of my notes are about. So I'll just kind of give my little spiel here where, as we've said,

this movie is a fairly faithful adaptation with a few exceptions as far as the script seems to add a few like, again, action-y set pieces. It heightens tension. It generally just makes the story more cinematic and like, again, action-y. So, for example, like the part where the wolves are chasing them, the set piece at the river, like... All the clunky CGI stuff feels like it's expanded. It's added, yeah. Yeah.

Because those beats are in the book, but like in the book, the wolves are following them, but they never really get that close to the children, like, on their journey to the stone table. The kids do have to cross the river, but in the book, it's not like the ice is breaking apart. The wolves aren't there. Right. Lucy doesn't almost drown. So there's these, like, few changes. It's so, like, kind of funny, where it's like, this movie is so clearly in conversation with the very successful Lord of the Rings movies that just came out.

Totally. Yeah. Absolutely. And then again, as we alluded to earlier, like, I'd imagine that one of the reasons that the battle scene is so expanded upon for this movie is to sort of, like, capitalize on the success of the Lord of the Rings movies, which. But the Lord of the Rings movies, you know, kind of famously include women in battle scenes. In key moments, include one woman.

Look, I'm not saying it's great. I actually do think in general Chronicles and Arnia does pretty squarely better on just including women in the story. For sure. For sure. But in this movie, not in the battles, as we've been talking about. So again, there's the big battle at the end. And as I'm like rewatching this movie, you know, through the becdo lens for the first time, and I've just reread the book, I'm like, okay, maybe this adaptation is going to give the girls more of a chance to participate in the battle, especially after Santa Claus gives them their gifts.

Because what happens here is that. Every time we say Santa Claus, I'm just like, right, and Santa Claus is in this movie. is in the movie as a character. He's war mongering Santa Claus. Like, Merry, he's a Merry Christmas. Go kill a guy. Like it's, yeah.

Wow. Yeah. So in the book, Santa Claus gives Lucy the dagger and Susan the bow and arrow. And then he says, hopefully you don't have to use these. Yes. Battles are ugly when women fight. And this is a C.S. Lewis, to get into C.S. Lewis's attitude towards women, very briefly, like there's, to say he's better than token on gender isn't really saying very much. But there are, you know, throughout the Narnia series, there are a series of women protagonists. Not just, I mean, Lucy Pevency is a major protagonist throughout. There's also, oh my gosh. let me see if I can find the names of these characters.

But there's like no fewer than I think three to four of the books where there are young women at the front of the story. However, C.S. Lewis himself for a great chunk of his life and career, while it seems like on a one-to-one basis, he was like not like out and out like fuck all women, but very of his time where the big thing with him was he was a professor at Oxford and then Cambridge, because British. And he was very against women going to, I think it was Cambridge, which it seems like, again, it's so hard because there's people who are very invested in caping for him. So this might be an overly generous read. It seems like as he got older and

particularly once he married a really cool woman, his views on gender evolved towards the end of his life. But I think, like, for most of his career, he, you know, tolerated women, but wasn't an ally, let's say. But did, I don't know. It's tricky. Anyways, that's all. Right. So in the book, Santa Claus is like, battles are ugly when women fight. In the movie, this This line gets changed to Santa Claus simply saying battles are ugly affairs. So this gendered language is removed from the movie adaptation. So I'm wondering, okay, like if the movie is going to lean into the action and the fighting and we've sort of removed this gendered line of Santa Claus's, will the sisters be allowed

to participate as much as the brothers, especially because they've been given weapons. but the answer, as we keep saying, is still no. Yeah. I mean, I get why Lucy, because she's so young, I understand why she would not be put in the middle of battle. But Susan seems to be pretty close in age to Peter. She has a bow and arrow. I think she uses it one time to kill Deep Roy's character.

I think that that is, yeah, it felt very like that old school, like that McSweeney's article we used to quote a lot. where it's like she gets to do one thing. I, because you just read the book, I reread the, I don't remember the specifics here. Does she get to use the weapon? Because it felt almost like, like, let's have her train with the, like, she, we see her training with the weapon. She very intentionally is like, I have to go practice so that she can use it once at the

end of the movie. But I was like kind of frustrated, I think, for the same reason of like, the movie is setting it up so that they're involved right um because also lucy like flings her dagger at the target like during the target practice thing and then hits a bull's eye and first of all i'm like i mean maybe she's a child prodigy at the dagger throwing but like she's also seven years old so are we sure about that i'm well i'm willing to suspend my disbelief that diva can do anything to me wow okay sure but yeah it is it is setting it up because again they're training they're practicing with their weapons right seems like they're going to participate but pretty much not yeah the moment when susan does use

her bow and arrow to kill the deep roy character it is to save edmund so we do see you know a girl saving a boy uh so that's something again it's it's like more than you might expect but still not a lot yeah is sort of what it came down to and then also So it does take Edmund a while to join in the battle. He's sort of like standing way off in the back and the distance with the beavers and with what appears to be women centaurs. Oh, I didn't notice that. Oh, not the women's centaurs.

I notice this. Okay, so the man centaurs, they're fighting in the battle on the front lines. The women centaurs apparently are not allowed to fight. on the front lines they're all the way in the back watch like what a weird they're basically not doing anything one of them fires a bow and arrow the arrow turns into a bird that turns into fire and then like creates that sort of like fire blockade thing it's frustrating i feel like this is very um emblematic of the 2000s of like clearly these productions are aware enough of of feminism women in general that they're willing to add these sort of like

breadcrummy kind of things Susan gets to do something once a woman centaur does one thing and it's like okay so you know what you're doing like obviously we know that but it's just frustrating to see movies of this era and movies this era I mean this continues for years and years and years like this continues throughout the like Avengers franchise but it's just it's so irritating to see i didn't even pick up on the the woman centaur moment which it's like you're like sure but it's like it's i don't know sometimes i'm like it's almost worse than nothing the women centaurs are like relegated to the to being way in the back with a literal

child and the beavers like basically the people who can't fight for shit yeah but i mean i'm yeah i was like do i want like lucy you know out there with a a with a Glock? No. So, but yeah, Susan, I mean, Susan, it just, again, they give you the little breadcrummy moment, but you don't really get the full, you know, what our character deserves and what it seems like the movie is building up to. And so what I've seen a lot in a lot of the Christian reads of this movie, that it is thought to be by some a showing of deference and respect to the girls that they are the ones that. Aslan trusts to witness, like he chooses them to witness this and to witness his resurrection

versus the boys. It almost feels like, whatever, if we're going with the allegorical read that C.S. Lewis kind of waffles on over the years, that he's favoring Mary Magdalene over the disciples. Again, I'm like not, uh, whatever. That's just there, there's that. But I do think like if we're reworking like this movie like you're saying takes a lot of liberties expands on a lot of stuff just josh the timeline and have them be able to be present at the battle aslan's whatever behind them whatever it's it's narnia just make it up right like aslan shows up with the sisters and the rest of the army and then and then that's when the battle maybe really kicks off like right not that hard to do yeah but i want to talk a little bit more about susan if it's okay yeah

please so canonically there's a whole thing around susan that a later generation of fantasy writers they all have something to say about susan pevency and two of them are now deeply disgraced because it's neil gaman and jk rowling but susan pevency uh so she is in uh let me be completely sure she is in the lion the witch in the wardrobe and then she's in little bits of the other books. She's in all of Prince Caspian. She is basically written out of Voyage of the Dawn Treader. She has little parts in the horse and his boy.

But so in the last battle, one of the Narnian books, we are given a reason why Susan is no longer present. So Narnia, I don't know, it works. I think it's easiest to explain in like polar express logic where, you know, like, whatever, the kid can hear the bell if they believe in Santa. If they don't believe, they can't. So the way that Narnia appears to work is that kids go to Narnia to learn that Jesus is awesome. And then after a while, you're no longer able to access Narnia.

I wasn't able to find, like, a consistent reason why this is. C.S. Lewis explains it in, because he had all these fan letters he would write. He explains it at some points as, like, when you understand the importance, of Aslan in Narnia, then you can understand the importance of Jesus in the regular world. And you don't need to go to Narnia anymore. But the way he talks about Susan is different. This is how Susan is talked about in the last battle. She's being talked about by another young woman, Jill Pohl.

So they frame it as if Susan has had a spiritual downfall in a way a lot of people read as misogynist. And I agree. Okay. quote oh susan said jill she's interested in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipsticks and invitations she always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown up grown up indeed said the lady polly i wish she would grow up she wasted all her school time wanting to be the age she is now and now she'll waste all the rest of her life trying to stay that age her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can so wow i know like basically they're like oh she came of age and now she's into silly woman stuff, right? And the argument against that is that like, oh, well, he's just writing about kids growing up and becoming interested in adult things. But I think that what chafes with that is Peter eventually can't go to Narnia either,

and it's not framed that way even remotely. Edmund can eventually not go to Narnia. Like all of the kids age out of Narnia at some point, which doesn't really make sense because, like you're saying, their maturity levels like all over the place. right but anyways it's been like something that's been sort of talked about for 75 years now about like it's generally thought that susan is done dirty in the books in general because she's underwritten to begin with and then he just writes her out over time being like oh she's like too silly she she likes lipstick too much so she's actually not welcome in christ's kingdom anymore

you're just like oh i don't love it i mean the way that like teen girls are the recipients of so much vitriol for what they like, what they're interested in, speaking very generally here. And it's just like, well, that's just because the critics are old men. Or C.S. Lewis. Okay. So I have a quote from C.S. Lewis that kind of confirms this misogynist read of it. He says, okay, so this is from a letter he wrote to a child. Because there were kids writing in being like, where's Susan? I miss Susan. And he says, quote, the books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there's plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get

to Aslan's country in the end, in her own way. So you're just like, you know, his his explanations really do sort of bear out the worst faith reading of that choice. And it sucks. Well, justice for Susan. Justice for goddamn Susan. Yeah, Lucy, it doesn't seem like, you know, she is sort of dealt quite as bad a hand as Susan. But it's also, I think, just because she's younger. And clearly, C.S. Lewis has a bone to pick with, like, young women coming of age. I don't know.

Well, he never saw it happen because he went off to war and then he met. It's true. He actually never. He met Patty's mother who was 46. In her mid-40s. That is so true. I like this is so much of CS Lewis's stuff you're just like can be kind of reduced to like this you know take everything he says with a grown of salt because he had like absurd mommy issues which brings me to the witch let's talk about the witch yes please mommy I like her I like I mean I don't like her politics I don't like her fascism but I like when she's played by Tilda Swinton she's also a pretty fun character in the BBC adaptation. Oh yeah. Tell me. I didn't write down the actor who plays her. The costume is pretty wild and she's giving

quite a performance. It is like full camp. She's screaming all the time. She's so mean and I love it. I love it. I mean, tells us when she's perfect in this movie. Yeah. She's so good. She's so scary. I love a good female villain. I know that that comes with a lot of baggage. And I think it's worth pointing out that, you know, in a world where women characters are pretty sparse, all of the sympathetic characters we meet in this world, with the exception of Mrs. Beaver are men. Jesus, Aslan is a man.

Mr. Tumnus is a man. You know, all the actively kind characters we meet in this world are pretty much all men. And the woman we know the best is, Satan, but she is also so kindy and like, it's not like I was like, I wish this character was played by a man because I don't. I guess what would have been cool is to have, like, like so many times, a second woman who was allowed to do something other than cook or like respond to men. Especially because so many members of Aslan's army are,

mythological creatures in in this world maybe patriarchy doesn't exist why not have the woman centaars like there's like a general it seems of aslan's army who is a man centaur why not have that be a woman centaur why not be like all of the soldiers in the army seem to be like male coded fons and centaurs and stuff does seem like something i mean i think particularly in the horse and his boy not the book you would expect to have some light feminist themes but there there is a character named arabis in that book who flees who runs away from home to escape an arranged marriage then sort of becomes this warrior which is kind of cool except the fact that the culture she's fleeing is sort of a veiled version of Islam. So it is C.S. Lewis being Islamophobic.

Yeah, Islamophobic while trying to be feminist. So it's just like, it's a mess. It's all a mess. I'm sure that there are Narnia books where there are more women in this world, at least more than appear to be in Lord of the Rings world. But regardless, it's like this is the iconic one and the woman we know best is Satan. and, you know, objectively not ideal. But I also am like, she's so good.

She's so good. She's great. Very reclaimable character, I think. And, yes, as far as adult women go. And then the two sisters, they're children, but they are very active participants in this story, more so Lucy than Susan, as we've discussed. But I do appreciate that there's a component of this story,

which is Lucy dealing with, her siblings not believing her about Narnia. And you can presume it's because Lucy is both a girl and the youngest because there's a long history of people not believing women and girls and people not believing children when they disclose something or have to say like, say like, this thing happened to me. Absolutely. Because you can imagine that if Peter, was the first person to discover Narnia, he'd be like, hey, younger siblings, come with me

on an adventure. They'd be like, awesome, sounds great and definitely sounds real. Because it's Lucy, she's a little girl, they're like pish-posh, there's no way that's true. And then to the professor's defense, he is like, you maybe should believe your sister. Let's logic through this. Let's take what She's saying seriously. Let's take what she's saying seriously. I also like the scene. It's a very short scene, but I liked the scene between Lucy and Susan about growing up. I thought that that was very sweet.

It reminded me of like a lot of my cousins where it's right before they like spend time with Aslan and then Asloid dies. All very back to back to back. But there's a brief Bechtelcast passing exchange between the two of them that basically boils down to like Susan. being like oh i'm sorry like we don't hang out as much and because but it's more like a reference to like their difference in age and maturity and lucy kind of pokes at susan and it's like well it's because you're so boring now and the way that your you know elder siblings seem boring when they're interested in other things in you and i just thought it was a very sweet moment and again it is not much but i did appreciate that you know like in general you do get moments between siblings

pairs in a way that I think shows more thought than you would maybe expect. And I like to have that the movie takes a moment to be like, what is Lucy's relationship with her older sister? In the same way that, and I think especially with Lucy, you have a very clear idea of like what the distinct relationships are. I think between kind of all the siblings, because Susan and Peter have the sort of like eldest thing going where they both think they're hot. shit and think their sibling sucks which feels you know that scans right lucy and edmund have

their like edmunds suck everyone kind of hates edmund that's everyone's relationship to edmund is like we yeah you know our parents you know something happened at the baby factory um well there's a there's a reference in the book that's not in the movie oh toward the very end of the book that and again it's been like it's been too many days have passed since i've read it so Basically, 84 years. It's seeping out of my memory. But the idea is that apparently something happened at school with Edmund. We're not sure if maybe he was the victim of bullying or something like that.

But basically, there was some experience that he had at school that kind of, that was the catalyst for him to behave the way that we see him behaving. Oh, interesting. Okay. Throughout the, like, first, like, two-thirds of the story. Okay. Well, that's actually, like, helpful to just have it even contextualize a little bit. It's literally, like, one sentence, but there is that little bit of context. The movie doesn't include that, which I understand why. Like, it might have been, like, clunky to include. Right.

But we just don't really know why, at least according to the movie, why Edmund is the way he is. Yeah, I mean, he's just like sometimes kids are little shits. But, yeah, I mean, I think, again, I'd like, I did appreciate that, whatever, all of the sibling pairings have a distinct dynamic, more or less. But unfortunately, I think it is Susan who kind of gets the, I always thought of like Susan and Peter as like they were boring to me. But Susan, you get the least out of them. Yeah. The 1988 BBC miniseries. I've already said most of what I wanted to say about it, but I was like, I did spend three hours of my one,

human life watching it so great the the last things I'll say about it the episodes are directed by a woman okay Marilyn Fox a TV producer writer and director who mostly worked on BBC programming specific to like children's programming from the 1960s to the 90s so she had a pretty prolific career And, yeah, she directed all the episodes of this mini-series. Again, lots of goofy effects and costumes. There's also a part where, so the part of the story where Edmund has left the beaver house and is making his way to the witch's palace. In the book, he's having an inner monologue, which is tricky to put on screen.

And, you know, some writers might have had Edmund just kind of talking to himself. Some maybe would have included his inner monologue as voiceovers. The 2005 movie kind of doesn't really do anything. It just shows him walking without any sort of indication that he's having thoughts or feelings. The 1988 adaptation chooses to do the worst option of them all, which is to have Edmund talk to an imaginary hologram of himself. Okay, that's awesome. It's visually really bizarre and hilarious.

This happens multiple times. And so that's that Aslan is an animatronic who talks a lot, but his lips don't move. His head is just sort of like nodding up and down. I kind of watch this. Also, he can fly the part where he is resurrected and then he takes Susan and Lucy to the witch's castle, he flies them there in the BBC version. So pretty, pretty cool stuff. I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't wait to watch it. This sounds like the perfect. I have a fever thing to watch. Absolutely. Amazing. I, yeah, I guess the last thing, there are four credited writers

on this movie. One is a woman. So there, there, there you go. And Peacock. Anne Peacock, cool name. She's got some other credits. But I think, than that we are really dealing with a pretty heavily male production team all things considered I think what this boils down to for me is it's like it is ultimately soft Christian propaganda but but I will say that it is ignorable to me anyways like I don't know it's not so aggressive that you can't enjoy it it I do feel like I mean Jesus lying it's pretty unignorable but I do feel like this is a take it or leave it kind of movie. And I'm leaving it, but, you know, respectfully.

Sure. I don't know. I still, I think probably some of its nostalgia, but I still have a lot of affection for this movie. And it is worth saying extremely white. So, so absurdly white. I think the BBC version might be better about being more inclusive in its casting choices. It's all, like, background.

characters and like fawns and stuff. But like, yeah, between the 2005 movie and the BBC miniseries, neither adaptation has any meaningful diversity in the cast. And that I'm hopeful and I guess looking forward to the Greta Gerwig interpretation. I hope it is a more inclusive interpretation. And it seems like, you know, having a woman at the helm of Narnia, hopefully we get coherent Susan here's to maybe a coherent Susan next year yes indeed I'd imagine that Greta Gerwig's adaptation she's doing is she doing another line the witch in the wardrobe is she what does she I this is like I don't know enough about this I don't know I just know it's been in production forever and the first one is coming out in theaters next year okay I believe she's

doing it in chronological order not publishing order though so I think she's not starting with lion witch in the wardrobe. Okay. But we'll see. I mean, we'll see, we'll see next year. I'm like, I'll, I'll see anything she releases. I'm not, like, I'm not excited for her adaptation of this the way that I was excited to see her adaptation of Little Women or Barbie. But, you know, hopefully it's amazing. We'll see. We will see. It passes the bectal test. It definitely does. Not extensively, but even that scene we were just talking about with Susan and Lucy, that entire scene where they're talking about their relationship and their relationship to growing up, I feel like it is actually, it is very plot relevant and a very sweet moment. And I'm sure that there is a pass

with one of the two and the white witch. And their mother at the beginning, there's a few passes as well. So not extensive, but it does pass. I'm giving it to them. But what about the most important metric in this world? Yeah, that would be, of course, the Bechtel nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens and I will give this movie like I think like one and a half that feels fair yeah maybe two again I'm feeling in the generous holiday spirit but probably yeah probably only one and a half um mostly because this movie had the opportunity. And again, if we're going to like meet the movie where it is, which we don't have

to do, but let's for argument's sake say, okay, this is a movie that's coming out in 2005. It's coming out after the success of the Lord of the Rings movies, which had lots of battle things. So we're going to expand the battle sequence of the Narnia movie. And therefore, there are opportunities to take liberties with how inclusive the story is. with especially the older, the elder sister, Susan, with her bow and arrow, and can she do some stuff if this is going to be like a battley actiony movie? And it feels like we're stuck in like Princess Leia land where it's like she can do one stuff and then she and then we're cutting her off.

Yeah. I mean, even Princess Leia does more stuff than Susan gets to do in this one movie at least. But so yeah, I, there were opportunities that were squirited. wandered. But again, if we are going to compare this to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which clearly wants us to. Which has basically, which has like fewer women in far fewer narratively significant roles. And in the movie adaptation of those, there were like female characters who were drawn out of the like appendices and like other material that J.R. Tolkien had written that weren't even.

in like the source material of like the Lord of the Rings books like I think Arwin was like barely in the books things were that dire like it was yeah it was that right so this movie in this story in general is doing better than that the bar is low and you know as we've talked about in past episodes fantasy at least the fantasy that gets adapted to film in Hollywood is quite male-driven, very white, very like Anglo-Saxon vibes. Yeah, which is improved, but not by as much as you would hope over time. Right. Also, I'm just so sick of big tent pole fantasy movies.

I'm like, how about we make them about no one? I'm so bored. But yeah, that said, yeah, I think I'm going to meet you at two taking into consideration. it's time because I think for a fantasy series it's doing better than most other fantasy series of its time so I'll give it a little edge for that reason and I just really love Lucy and the white witch even though there are fewer women characters in this movie than male characters I do think that the women in general are the more memorable and more iconic and I agree. I'm sort of like Aslan, I'm bored. The White Witch, I'm engaged.

The White Witch, yeah, she's the one that stands the test of time, you know, and that's coming from someone who used to smooch Aslan before bed. Right, right. The White Witch takes it regardless. Oh, yeah. So I'm going to give it two nipples. Where are you giving your nipples to? I'll give it two as well. Merry Christmas, everyone. And I'll give it to. two, one to Tilda Swinton and one to Andrew Adamson's Shrek and Shrek two. I was going to say an argument to bump it down to one and a half is that we know Andrew Adamson can make a feminist masterpiece. He just made Shrek two.

So there is that. You're like, we know the bar for Andrew Adamson feminist masterpiece is relatively high, but I'll stick with two. I'm going to give one to Lucy. I'm going to give one to Warlord Santa. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Never forget. It's so funny that Santa's in this. Apparently, J.R. Tolkien was also like,

you're a joke. You're a flop. Why is Santa in your book? Which is very funny. All right. Incredible. Well, there you go, listeners. Nine years after you started asking for it, there's our Chronicles of Nardia episode. We hope you enjoyed it. And you can find us in all the normal places. You can find us mostly on Instagram on social media. And you can find us, as we said at the beginning.

beginning of the episode on the Patreon, aka Matrion, which is how we were able to figure out how badly everyone wanted this episode. But if you want to head over there for additional holiday episodes, we covered the Family Stone, and Black Christmas, another popular request. Indeed. And with that, happy holidays. Happy holidays. Here's a sword. Go kill someone, young one. Bye, bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of I-Heart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them?

That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her? Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic, and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Have you ever listened to those true crime shows and found yourself with more questions than answers? Who catfishes a city? Is it even safe to snort human remains? Is that the plot of footloose? I'm comedian Rory Scoville, and I'm here to tell you Josh Dean and I have a new podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. It's called Crimeless, a true crime comedy

podcast. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm investigative journalist Melissa Jeltson. My new podcast, What Happened in Nashville, tells the story of an IVF clinic's catastrophic collapse and the patients who banded together in the chaos that followed. It doesn't matter how much I fight. Doesn't matter how much I cry over all of this. It doesn't matter how much justice we get. None of it's going to get me pregnant. Listen to what happened in Nashville on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Who would you call if the unthinkable happened? My sister was y'all 22 times. A police officer, right? But what do you do when the monster is

the man in blue? This dude is the devil. He'll hurt you. This is the story of a detective who thought he was above the law, until we came together. to take him down. I said, you're going to see my face till the day that you die. Listen to the girlfriends, untouchable, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I know he has a reputation, but it's going to catch up to him. Gabe Ortiz is a cop. His brother Larry, a mystery Gabe didn't want to solve until it was too late. the head of this gang. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it.

When Larry's killed, Gave Must Untangle the Dangerous Past, one that could destroy everything he thought he knew. Listen to the brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.