The Bechdel Cast - The Craft with Suzee Dunn

Episode Date: November 16, 2017

This week, Jamie "Light as a Feather" Loftus and Caitlin "Stiff as a Board" Durante invite guest Suzee Dunn to discuss The Craft!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @_bosswitch on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. What happens when a professional football player's career ends and the applause fades and the screaming fans move on? I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite.

For some former NFL players, a new faith provides answers. You mix homesteading with guns and church. Voila! You got straight away. They try to save everybody. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States.

One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeartTrue Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hi, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name's Jamie. My name's Caitlin. And this is our podcast about how women are portrayed in movies. Hey, is it good? Usually no. Almost never. Almost never. But sometimes a movie surprises us and it's like, oh, it wasn't, it was like only 90% terrible, but like 10% okay in his portrayal of women. And then sometimes you're like, I'm tired. I'm tired.

I'm tired of this. I'm tired of this happening. I'm tired of this world. Why do we have to have this discussion? But we have to because someone has to. And then you just spiral. We are heroes. You're right.

Jesus fucking Christ, man. What an exhausting time to be alive. Indeed. Well. But we're here to, I don't know, maybe bring some levity to anyone's life by. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we're not supposed to be the bummer podcast. Yeah, we're fun.

We're a fun lift up. We're fun. We're fun. We're fun. But sometimes we get pissed off and you just have to be okay with it. It's an upsetting world. We're allowed to have our feelings. Yeah.

I haven't been drinking a Mike's Heart in days. What's going on? Oh, shit. I know. That's what's going on. I bought crystals. We bought crystals. Yeah, we did.

I bought like eight crystals. You bought a lot of crystals. I didn't say anything while we were in the store because I was just like, no, she's into it. She's going for it. Well, I figured. Your first crystals. I have a lot of things that need addressed in my life. And I bought a crystal for every issue.

I bought crystals yesterday and I was vibrating at a very high level. I walked for a total of three hours. I had a panic attack. But I'm like, I'm just I can't handle the energy of the crystals yet. Or maybe I should go back on my bipolar medication. Hard to say. Bought the crystals. Feel good about it.

Bought Picasso Jasper. I'm about to start writing the great American novel literally any second. Literally any second. It's on the tip of my tongue. I can't wait to read. We're so close. But yes, we bought crystals. Totally fine.

We can deal with it. Shout out to all you crystal heads out here. We are become you. Yes, we are among you. And speaking of like, crystal-y mysticism and doing this, this is not the movie we're talking about. But before we even do that,

let's introduce our guest. She is the creator of Act Like a Girl, which is a podcast. It's a live show. It's a whole movement. It's a movement. Susie Dunn. Hello. Welcome.

Sorry, I introduced you right as you were swallowing a gulp of water. Also, I have to say, I just got given a bowl, like a pipe, that's completely a crystal. Whoa. It's so pretty. Sm a pipe, that's completely a crystal. Whoa. It's so pretty. Smoking out of it gives you mental clarity or something. Yeah, that's like two for one. It clears my heart, clears my brain. Chakras.

Chakras. Yeah. So we're here to talk about the craft. Yes. Wait, the craft of screenwriting? The craft, yeah. Speaking of, I do have a master's degree in it. I hate to bring it up.

I wanted to open it up. I'm so excited that this is getting brought up because you want to know what's exciting. There are still only three degrees between us. Oh, wow. Well, now we're even. Now we're even. I'll give you one of mine.

Take one of Caitlin's. Just for the podcast. Yeah, I've never used it. Okay, great. Keep it. My dad will finally be proud of me. It'll be great. Who wants to make a dad proud, honestly?

That's so 20th century. Right, I'm over it. When did you first see this movie? What's your history with this movie? Oh, man. I mean, I feel like i saw this in my teen like teenage years i was probably like 13 or 14 i think that's like the right age to see it for the first time i wish i'd seen it then yeah yeah yeah i was obsessed with it immediately i mean it's it's not

a it is a teen movie structurally but it's also like not a teen movie it's pretty scary yeah there's some scary imagery there There's some pretty heavy topics. Sexual assault. I think it's good, though. Yeah, yeah. Racism. Yeah. I don't think I saw it until I was later teens or maybe even early 20s. I think I saw it for the first time in college. And then Jamie... I saw it

at 3 a.m. last night. Yes. You've never seen it before? Never seen it. Which is weird. It's like a movie that I know if I had seen it at the right time, I would have been. Because I was really into witchy shit when I was a teenager and still kind of now. I mean, we just bought crystals. We just bought crystals.

What do you think? Well, I have a lot of thoughts. I loved the first half of the movie. The second half of the movie, I didn't like the second half. I didn't like the weird turn that it took in the second half. But we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there.

But in general, I liked what they were going for. I'll do the recap of the craft. The recraft. That doesn't make any sense. I loved it. Thank you so much, Jane. I like it. YW.

So it centers on these four girls, Sarah, Nancy, Bonnie, and Rochelle. Sarah's new to town. She just moved to L.A. from San Francisco. And she's like already kind of practicing witchcraft and magic. Sarah hot. Sarah hot. All of them hot. All of them hot.

All of them are babes. Yeah. It's a very, it's a hot movie. There's hotness. There's a lot of hot. Not really any hot men to speak of. I'm going to go ahead and say Skeet, not his character. Who's Skeet? Skeet Orlitch.

That's his real name. Oh, wait, who, the jock? Yeah, the guy that, yeah. His name is Skeet? His name is Skeet? Have you ever heard of Skeet? Like the short term for masturbation, like Skeet? His name is Skeet? Have you ever heard of Skeet? Like the short term for masturbation? Like Skeet?

Skeet, Skeet. Like Skeet, like... Like Skeet, Skeet, motherfucker? Yeah. Skeet, Skeet, goddamn. Skeet, Skeet, motherfucker Earl? Skeet, Skeet, goddamn. Ulrich.

Ulrich. Yeah, yeah. He's on Riverdale. This is all wild. I didn't know he was the guy from Riverdale. Well, I guess he's hot. I find him attractive. He's hotter now, I think. Really?

I think he's hotter now. I would agree he's hotter now. I didn't think he was hot in The Craft. Yeah, I don't either. Is he hot in Riverdale? I think yes. His character is deplorable, so maybe that's why. But I like that this movie totally hearkens us to discuss the male characters that way.

Like, in a way that generally you would discuss the female characters, right? Like it's just like very easy to be like, well, he's hot, he's not. Yeah, and then we don't know anything about his character because he's not well-developed enough. Other than that, he's horrifying. But we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there.

So Sarah's like, hey, you guys seem witchy. I'm kind of witchy. Maybe we should all be friends. And the other three girls are like, yeah, we need a fourth because they have to have earth and fire. Everyone knows the rule of fours. Yeah, the rule of fours. And the other three girls are like, yeah, we need a fourth because they have to have earth and fire. Everyone knows the rule of fours. Yeah, the rule of fours.

They need a north, south, east, west. Yeah. So they sort of bring her into the group. And Sarah is the most talented of the witches. So she's able to, like, introduce them to different spells. And like, hey, wait a minute. There's this racist girl. Let's make her hair fall out.

Wait a minute. There's this boy, Skeet. Well, Sarah, she's the best witch, but she knows the least. And then they kind of teach her how to harness a little bit. Right, right, right. Yeah, she's like the least educated. Yeah, and so I think that... She just has raw talent.

Yeah. Right, but then they sort of mold her and they teach her how to cast the spells and then they whine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's different people who they sort of want to cast spells on, either to punish them for being racist, i.e. Christine Taylor. Which, by the way, all racist people should just go bald.

Fuck Lauren Lizzie. And that's letting them off the hook too easy. Right, right. Because some of them might look nice. Well, it was like spoiled bald. It was a weird. Like her skin. well it was like spoiled bald it was a weird like skin oh i never even made that connection that maybe they were turning her into a skinhead because racists sometimes are already bald by

choice right like this is part of my and then they were like i wonder if the two white guys who wrote this movie thought that hard about it i doubt it i doubt it but i said but i like that but then it's also interesting because even though, like, okay, yeah, that's great that they talk about racism and, like, show a racist character getting her comeuppance. But then, like, they don't even give Rochelle a lot of validity as a character. Like, we never see her home life. The only time we see her home life is the door. She's the only character we don't see the home life. Yeah, she's the only one.

Like, we just see her front door. That's it. I mean, there's, I mean, the back half of this movie just is a big fat problem. And there's no other person of color besides her. Yeah, she is the only one I think you even see on screen at any point. Which is, like, for a movie that takes place in Los Angeles is, like, pretty ridiculous. The craziest thing. But, right, so she...

They punish these people. Yeah, and then Skeet is, like, he spreads this rumor that like he and Sarah had sex, even though they didn't. But then Sarah's like, well, I still want him to like me. So she casts a spell and he sort of becomes obsessed with her. Yeah. And then Nancy sort of like the head witch in charge. Farooza Balk.

Yeah. Dorothy Gale in the terrible movie Return to Oz. Oh, is that her? Yes. I still have not seen that. Her eyes. She's a cult figure. Dorothy Gale in the terrible movie Return to Oz. Oh, is that her? Yes. I still have not seen that. Her eyes. She's a cult figure, yes. Oh my God.

Her eyes are like so spooky. Those eyes, that smile. Yeah. But she wants to sort of invoke the spirit of Manon. Yeah. They worship a male god, which is kind of upsetting. Right. It's a total bummer.

Manon. Manon. He's within me, Manon. That's like 40% of this movie. It those movies like who's inside of you yeah anyways so she like they cast this spell or whatever do this ritual to have him be inside of nancy and then it turns her all evil and then they have this big they sort of duke it out at the end. Finally, Sarah triumphs because she's the good witch of the North. North.

She's literally, and then is Nancy the witch of the South? Am I? I don't understand it. She's not of the West. I can't remember who's who. I didn't even. I can't either, but I also think that they assigned them the wrong elements, in my opinion. Yeah, I was thinking that too. Because I think that Rochelle is definitely air.

Okay. And Bonnie is definitely earth. And then this is like different than I think most people would think. But I think Sarah is fire and Nancy is water. Because Nancy is more chaos and fire is like, I don't know, like more controlled and it's all like one thing whereas water like other things can exist in it and there can be like different kinds of chaos whereas fire is just like all this anyway i think about these things no i was just wondering it's like am i am i a fire am i a water am i a samantha am i a charlotte i don't know i think you're

what's your what's. What sign are you? What kind of sign is it? I'm a Taurus. Well, that's Earth. You're an Earth sign. Okay. I'm a Fire sign. I'm a Fire sign. I guess. I'm an Aries. Leo. Nice. Hell yeah. Earth. Well, Earth. Sarah was Earth, right? Yeah. I think that's what

they assigned her to. Yeah. Yeah, she was Mother Earth. Yeah. Right, right, right. And I was like, I guess I see that argument. I don, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she was Mother Earth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. And I was like, I guess I can see that argument. I don't know. Yeah. I think, okay, so something I did find funny

in this movie. Okay, so the big problem for me with this movie is the first half of it is all about these teenage goth-adjacent misfits finding each other, bonding.

There's a little bit of friction. There's a little bit of click there's a little bit of click problems but ultimately it's people in high school finding people that they like and generally doing positive like or not horrible things they make a racist go bald i think that's very cool yeah you know nev campbell gets healed of her scars and gets confident. Which, by the way, like, in this universe, now her doctor's being, like, written up about in medical journals for curing

her burn so easily. Right, and she's like, I did this. Women lifting up women! Yeah, yeah. Women in STEM, even. Women in, yeah. Yeah. Even though the women in STEM, in this case, had nothing to do with it. Yeah. Women in magic. But she's like making major breakthroughs. Right, right.

I mean, you know, it's about them coming together. And then the second half of the movie, they kind of sell out all the momentum made in the first half and just turn these characters against each other in a really brutal way. And for me, the most frustrating part was,

I mean, I guess we're to understand you know nancy gets her wish which is money inside of her and she basically becomes a god who can read people's thoughts and fly and appear and blah blah but then they basically sell out the characters of bonnie and rochelle who we have started to learn more about and they have been getting to different degrees at least we've gotten looks into their lives and we're sort of understanding where they're coming from and why they want what they want and then all of a sudden it's like oh but none of that matters anymore

they're just going to do what Nancy tells them to do and now they're evil. I was shocked by that choice that they didn't have them be on Sarah's side. Or didn't even address the we don't see that change take place. It just happens. Right, yeah.

There's no real buildup or arc. Well, are we to believe that Manon and his power is sort of corrupting all of them or maybe just... But then why are they still bitches at the end, you know, when they go up to Sarah and they're like, hey, we don't have powers anymore. Do you have power?

Like, it was just weird because they all came together as friends and then it's sort of and i thought of that too of like oh maybe they're just being manipulated by nancy and mentally but but even after that's no longer a thing it's like oh are we supposed to think that these three were just not good people the whole time because i thought that i think yeah i don't like that there is sort of that implication because come to think of it i don't think mano is a bad force the yeah he's supposed to be everything yeah he's everything he's the world and as the witch store lady, I can't remember what her character's name is. I'm pretty sure it's the witch store lady.

Yeah, witch store lady. She says, like, there's evil and good in nature and in the world. So, like, it's really the witch who chooses which one to harness. Good or bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, like, they steal from her in the beginning. Which, you know, as a teenager, I stole stuff sometimes. Sure. Like more like from CVS than like from a local mom and pop.

Yeah. Yeah. From like a locally owned. And to her credit, I mean, she doesn't seem super bothered by it. Like, you know, like the woman who owns the new age shop is like, oh, you're stealing again. And she's like, yeah, I don't have any have any money i was like this is a weird dynamic why would you let them keep coming in but yeah she's so chill she's in with manos she's just like whatever yeah this is life that's a good point though about this movie starts out as like a depiction of female friendship and you're like oh cool i'm glad they all found each other and even though some of them are you know like rough around the edges they found each other and that's nice. And then, yeah, by the end, they've pretty much all the three original, which is all turn on Sarah.

They try to kill her even. Yeah. They pretend like her dad and stepmom are dead. Yeah. Oh, my God. That was the thing that made me laugh. It was like, they're like, oh, man, it was a flight from L.A. to San Francisco. I'm like, that's like an eight minute flight. How can you get that wrong? She should have known they were lying. Right. Because at the end, you see her dad, and he's like, hey, it's me. I was like, of course.

You took a two-minute flight. You're fine. He's fine. I love those parental relationships. I love Sarah and her dad. They're so cute together. Like, I love that she doesn't have daddy issues. Yeah.

He's, like, kind of the only male character that you don't end up absolutely hating yeah and he like he fully supports her like when she when that guy shows up when they first get to the house oh the snake man yeah the snake man like he like freaks out on him yeah that was so fucking weird he like freaks out on him you know rather than like i don't, victim blaming or something. Right. And I also love Nancy and her mom's relationship, which I do think also gets spoiled by the second half because it's like,

they have, I mean like, yeah, they're a mess, but like they're each other's mess. I, I didn't, I don't know.

I didn't like Nancy. It's interesting. Cause again, it's like the movie does a lot of work in the front half to develop Nancy's character as like, yes, she is jealous of Sarah, which is not atypical for a teenage girl. And so it's like, okay, she's tough, but she doesn't seem like a bad person. they give us her backstory which is like she has a brutal home life like her mom and her stepdad i guess are alcoholics who are screaming at her from the second and her mom is the first one to yell at her um and so it's like okay she has a really really really hard home life and then sort of sells that out when they're just like okay now she's an all-powerful being and she's a she's an

evil bitch and at the end she's punished by being in a mental asylum in a kind of needlessly long montage of her squirming around in a straitjacket. I thought that this time, too. I was like, okay, we get it. Cut. Yeah, I was just like, what is it? Were they like, no, we need more? But either way, I was just like, man, I don't get why this movie went the way it did. Because it just sacrificed all the really good character development they were doing to just turn girls against each other for the sake of it.

It felt like, I don't know. I mean, I have conflicting feelings about it the same way I do for, like, Heathers and Mean Girls, where it's like a depiction of female friendship, which is like always, to me, kind of just defaults as like, oh, cool, I'm glad that there's a movie about this. And then they're often shown as like, at least some of them are really awful to each other to the point where they're killing each other or trying to kill each other or just like bullying each other. So there's that, that I'm like, okay'm like okay well yeah like you said it toward

the second half and toward the end the three original girls two of the characters are basically they're just like well whatever well like they just totally blow them off i don't know yeah yeah they're just like well everything hope you enjoyed the first half of them because now they're just gonna be around it's also Hope you enjoyed the first half of them because now they're just going to be around. It's also so interesting. Like their hair all just gets so much better. As they grow more powerful. And I also love that.

Oh, I can't even remember why she said this, but my favorite line in the whole movie was when Rochelle is like, and I told her, you're white, honey. Just deal with it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're like, what did Nancy wish for? She's like, I don't know. She wished to not be white trash anymore. Yes, yes. I was like,, just deal with it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're like, what did Nancy wish for? She's like, I don't know. She wished to not be white trash anymore. Yes, yes.

I was like, oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah. I was like, and I told her, you're white. You can't. Just deal with it. But I mean, Nancy, I guess I didn't really, like the takeaway I got from Nancy and her mom, because even after we see the stepfather have a witch-induced heart attack and he dies and then they get money. That's all like, great, great, great.

Love to see a villainous male die in front of me. I love that scene in the trailer, too, when they're talking with the guy that's the lawyer with the will. All the different, like, the art department must have had so much fun creating that scene because there's, like, different wallpaper on each wall of the trailer and like the two girls are just like sitting and smoking cigarettes. The mother daughter smoking rolls. Yeah it's so good.

I love it. And they're like $175,000? $175,000? She looks like she's crying but then she's laughing. It's so good. Yeah. And so that was all great but then I feel like where you sort of leave off with Nancy and her mom is they move to this really nice apartment which you're just like $175,000.

But it was 1996. So then they move into this amazing apartment in LA. With a jukebox. With a jukebox that only plays Connie Bradley? Bailey? Something like that? Connie Walk? No.

Connie Walker. My favorite brand of whiskey. Connie Francis. Connie Walker. And my favorite. That's feminist John Walker. But then I'm pretty sure the last time we see Nancy's mom, you can tell. Because when she closes the door in her face.

Right, because her mom is still kind of a disaster alcoholic who's not thinking about her daughter. Right. And so it's like, well, you know, that's not what's gonna make nancy happy even though that improves her situation by not having a piece of shit step stepdad anymore and having a better living situation her mom's still an alcoholic and doesn't know how to take care of her kid and that is like kind of devastating and and sad and hard to see um and also just made me feel worse when they turned Nancy into a total evil demon. Because I was just like, she... I feel like if you're going to do that to a character,

if you know at the beginning you're going to take this character and turn them completely irredeemably evil, then don't give them a very sympathetic backstory that possibly a girl seeing that movie could relate with. Right. Because so many... I mean, you know, it's not uncommon to have an alcoholic parent. It's so true.

And so it's just weird to see that. There's also a moment where her stepdad, she's wearing a robe, and he's like, you could almost see through it. And he kind of yanks on her robe, and it's weirdly sexual. Horny mess. Yeah, bad.

Another thing that I struggled with in this movie is that a lot of the spells that they because each of the four girls has sort of like their own character arc their thing that they're trying to achieve and at least two of them are like either very superficial or selfish where bonnie is trying to remove the scars so that she can be beautiful on the outside as well as inside and then as soon as that happens she turns like shit on the inside. But also when Sarah was giving her a hard time in the car, I don't know. And I say this as a teenager that wore a back brace.

Like when Sarah turned to Bonnie and was like, ever since you started looking like a normal girl, you've become a real bitch. Or like that was summarized. And I was like, you know what? Give Bonnie like a couple months to be a little bitch and be like i'm cute now i was like man because getting out of a physical prison is exciting and give her a couple months i don't know i was like let her dress sexy and walk around yeah like let her have that catharsis she'll get over it like for a narrative of a movie it was a little bit of a bummer to like see bonnie like so Bonnie, her hair so greasy

in her face and just completely covered up because of this scar. And then the minute it's off, she's sexy Neve Campbell all of a sudden. She starts out very Ally Sheedy in The Breakfast Club. She does. I think almost covering her face

with her hair to be like, oh, please don't do this. It's Neve Campbell and she's very hot. Because she's hot at the beginning of the movie too but it's that crazy hollywood thing where they're just like we're just gonna gaslight you into thinking she's not hot because she looks kind of dirty a little bit she's gonna have a middle part and you're gonna be fooled well between that her like her wanting to remove her scars and sarah who's the main character that we're most supposed to identify with and root for her thing is that she wants this boy to like her even after he spread these like vicious rumors about her and right so i want to go through that arc really quick skeet's character arc skeet skeet ske. Skeet, goddamn. A new segment on every episode of the Bechtelcast, Skeet's character arc.

Okay, so the first thing you see is him talking to Sarah, and he's like, oh, those girls over there, the bitches of Eastwick, and he slut-shames Nancy. And we're like, oh, I don't know about that. He literally is just like, she's a slut. Yeah. You're like, oh. Yeah. While we know how he feels. So he's like, she's a slut. Yeah. You're like, oh. Yeah. While we know how he feels. So he's like shit-talking them.

And then they go on a date, he and Sarah. They're like flirting. He's like, oh, your head is good. Good for kissing. Can I? He asks. He asks. He does.

I know. I noticed that too. I know. And then. And I was like, feminist icon Skeet asks permission to kiss. That never happened. Skeet Ulrich. He, I was like, wow.

This never, we never seen an enemy. I literally said out loud last night, I was like, god damn it, that's so sexy. And then he fucks it all up. Right. Which is weird, because he, well, I mean, and she says no, and he's like, oh, and then she's like, are you mad? And he says, no.

And then you're like, and then the scene cuts to the next day. You're like, well. Well, they do kiss. They do. Well, yeah, they do kiss. But she consents to that. But then it totally adds validity to his story because his friends see them making out. And then they're leaving.

Right, right, right. So that's like key that like they do kiss. Because then everybody's like, well, we saw them making out. So she must have fucked him. But they don't see what happens leaving. Right, right, right. So that's like key that like they do kiss because then everybody's like, well, we saw them making out. Right. But they don't see what happens afterwards. Right. Well, because then he asks her to go home with him and she says no. And he's like saying he's okay with it.

But the subtext of his tone and stuff like that is he's annoyed and pissed off that she won't go home with him. So then he spreads the rumor that they slept together, and then she calls him out on it. She's like, you're a lying sack of shit. Fuck you. And he's, like, really rude to her. And then she's like, oh, I better cast a spell to make him like me, even though he has proved himself as a piece of shit.

He also says, like, he, like, yells so that everyone hears. He's like, I don't want to date you again or whatever, like, just to add even more validity to a shitty, shitty story. And his stupid pants. He has terrible pants in this movie. Who is in charge of Skeet's pants? Oh, by the way, this movie, I just want

to say this, this movie completely was passing the Bechdel test until minute 13. Which I think is really good. And that never happened. It only has to happen one time. And at minute 13, they talk about how much they don't like the guys. That's like the first way that it... That was another part I liked about the front half of this movie

is that at the beginning when... I mean, granted, do Nancy, Bonnie, and Rochelle basically bully Sarah into being their friend? Yes. Is that click being their friend. Yes. Is that clicky and problematic? Yes. Yeah, they're just like, come with us. They're like, you're our friend now.

You're coming with us. Which kind of happens in a more fun way in Mean Girls. But it's, I mean, that's high school, I guess. But, you know, worth saying. But they sort of look out for each other a little bit where Nancy, very in no uncertain terms, says, look out for Skeet. He's a predator. He'll hit on anyone with tits.

Trust me. He spreads disease. I know from experience. Right. Right. Except Bonnie, because she is still as a middle part for like 20 more minutes and then she'll start fucking anyone she wants. And then when that happens and Sarah finds out the hard way that Skeet's an asshole, Nancy sort of gloats a little bit, but ultimately doesn't shame her for it, doesn't doubt her story and is like, what did I tell you? Yeah. And that is sort of what convinces Sarah,

okay, I'll be friends with these girls because they warned me and I wanted to learn anyways, which seems like a very teenage girl move. And then, you know, now I have a reason to trust them. Right. And so that was I was like, that's a, you know, pretty solid friendship bonding moment. And I liked that. And it was like one of my favorite parts of them coming together. Light as a feather stiff as a board scene.

Amazing. So good. Yeah, I'm obsessed with that scene. Because it's like it's the best. And they're sort of doing the mid to late 90s, almost pre-Matrix-y kind of technology where you see the 360 shot of Rochelle floating a foot off. We just want to prove that there's not some weird thing.

She's laying on a green block, but it looks so real. It's exciting. Man, yeah, that was cool. I loved that scene. Yeah. So then where Skeet's arc lands is that he gets this spell cast on him. He falls in love with her and starts stalking her. Then tries to rape Sarah.

But by then it's the second half of the movie where it seems like all the harmless slash very little harm done they do in the first half that's fun to watch suddenly comes back on them threefold in the second half. And I feel like punishes female characters unnecessarily. Everything post the invoking and summoning of Manon. Yeah, that's when things take a turn. So then he tries to rape her. She runs away. And then Nancy's like, we a turn. So then he tries to rape her. She runs away. And then Nancy's like, we're going to get revenge on this guy.

Right. So she goes and, and like puts a lot of unwanted sexual contact on him. And then, turns into Sarah and has sex with him. And that could probably be considered rape.

Did they have sex sex though? I mean, it seemed like. It seemed like it. Like they were starting to, right? And that, but be considered rape. Did they have sex sex, though? I mean, it seemed like. It seemed like it. Like they were starting to, right? But that's another selling out of a character that just didn't make sense to me other than once Nancy had momentum power, she just wanted to use it to cause chaos to hurt anybody. Yeah.

And that just didn't. I don't know. Because at first when she said, I'm going to go get revenge on him, I was like, all right, this seems like something this character would do

because she's pissed off and wants to take care of it probably in a chaotic way. Right. But then ends up having totally selfish motives that's like, I don't really believe that.

I don't know. That scene ends with him getting magicked to death out of a window, like pushed by magic out of a window. Wait, but does he die, though? I think he dies. He does. He did die.

Okay. I couldn't remember. And it's just like, start there. Just kill him if you want to get rid of his daughter. I mean, honestly, his death scene, the sex scene that precedes it is very problematic and confusing and just like oh what are the ethics of this well right but his death scene i i really liked that's the problem is that she like quite literally asked for it you know what i'm saying like our big issue with

talking about rape culture is well she was asking for it like she quite literally by casting a spell yeah she like literally asked for him to fall head over heels in love with her. Not to rape her, obviously. Sure. No, no. That's what I'm saying. That's why it's so problematic. And that spell was so fun at first, too. Right.

He was just like, I want to carry your books. Why can't I stop thinking about you? I'm stupid. I'm stupid. I'm stupid. And it's like, great. This checks out. He's stupid.

And it all backfires. Yeah. And then the whole threefold thing comes in. And just every repercussion of the threefold thing just didn't work for me at all. Like, there's no world in which because Sarah cast a goofy spell in an already misguided attempt to make an asshole like her, there's no way that she deserved that comeuppance of no being assaulted no and rochelle's arc of at the end when you know she's doing a bad thing and she's kind of mindlessly following nancy for reasons that i didn't understand she and bonnie look in

the mirror and bonnie has scars on her face right And then, and then Rochelle's somehow going bald because she retaliated against a racist, which is like, no, she, that was allowed. That was allowed. I just, I don't know. Like, every racist should go bald. Right, like, men. And then every racist should fly out of a, get thrown out of a window. Man, I really did like Skeet's death scene.

It was. It was so good, but I felt like. What did she say? She said, you're sorry. And then she's like shaking. And then he just like,et's death scene. It was. It was so good, but I felt like... What did she say? She said, you're sorry. And then she's like shaking. And then he just like, you know, explodes. But I agree with Caitlin that it like totally negates the validity of it all by then raping him before doing that. It's such a bummer.

His whole arc plays out in an insane way, especially because it starts out with him asking for consent to kiss her. Like, don't... And that's before he's under a spell. It's such a bummer. If you're going to set up that type of behavior, then don't make that character actually end up being a gross... because that's like behavior that we should be celebrating.

Yes, be applauding. Asking for consent. That happens to so many characters in this movie. Especially because... A troubled but possibly not irredeemable character and then at the end they're just totally like nope and i remember like re-watching this movie when i was becoming more feminism aware you know and thinking to myself like i kept hoping because i think i like kind of forgot plot points, and I kept hoping that she would be wanting him to fall so head over heels in love with her

to then teach him a proper lesson, like a good lesson. But then it just really was because she just wanted him to like her. And I was like, damn it! And almost immediately, once he starts to like her, she's over it. She's just like, oh, well. Well, it goes back to my point of like two of the like desires of the girls are like i want to be hotter and i want a boy to like me and it's like you i guess you could argue that sure that's what they're they're teenagers that's what teenage girls but i would counter argue that we're socialized to think that that's

all teenage girls are capable of or should care about or do care about which is fair one of them wishes that racism would no longer exist and that's good really like Rochelle kills it in the wish department everyone else kind of she also like kind of feels bad about it too which is sad like I she should just be like yeah fuck you you're bald deal with it you know but I think that that's interesting too which again sad like i she should just be like yeah fuck you you're bald deal with it you know but i think that that's interesting too which again is why it's such a bummer in the end when she's just like a crazy bitch too yeah i mean and and really like yeah selling out a developed female character to be a crazy bitch is just such a cheap move also Also, a small character note for Sarah.

She's sort of Disney princessed a little bit by no mom. She has no mom. And there's sort of this, the specter of her mom is sort of being held over her head the whole time. I totally thought about that. But only because of you, because of what you bring up always on Bechtelcast. I was like oh

yeah we're changing lives we're heroes we did it we're heroes but but that occurred and then I I don't know I mean I wasn't dissatisfied with how that was brought back at the end with the name of the the witch uh at the witch store is lio, which is a Spanish word for Lily. But at the end, when Sarah almost sort of seeks out Lirio as like a maternal figure of like, here's a woman who knows something I don't and I need help and I'm scared. Mom goes, goes to Lirio and Lirio is,

you know, adds in and, and she really is kind of like the witch ex machina at the correct moment in the movie where, oh, she has all the information and turns out Sarah will be fine no matter what. And, you know, and then we get to see that weird climactic scene. But she says like whatever. She's like, and your mother was a witch.

Did you know that? And Sarah said, no. And she said, well, she was. You're like, well, she was. You're like, well, that's great. How does she know? She's the witch ex machina.

She knows everything. She knows it all. Yeah, that was, that was a weird, what did she do that was helpful in that scene? Genuine question. Because doesn't it just end with like the shop blowing up and then that's it.

But then it doesn't really. It gets glamor to throw up because it looks like it's exploding and uh sarah's like it's it's nancy so she runs away because she's still being tormented by nancy yeah i mean that character the witch store lady doesn't really do anything except maybe give her the confidence later on to realize hey i can invoke my mom too it was nice to see a maternal moment for sarah maybe that was like supposed to just be like oh and she gives her strength or something oh i did like that sarah repeatedly tries to not kill nancy which after a certain amount of misdeeds would have been legit you know and i think a lot of movies would have just made that easier move but is repeatedly trying to make counter spells to be like i don't want nancy to hurt anyone else and i don't want her to hurt

herself yeah so you're just like well that's uh good look it out and also i don't know if i would have had that sort of restraint i'd be like get, get rid of her. Why is she so mean now? Which is why it makes no sense to me that if that's her character, she wants goodwill toward everyone and she's looking out for people. Why then does she choose to make this boy like her as her main story arc thing? I think maybe she learned from that. Even that choice though. If he had wronged her, why

didn't she cast a spell to make his dick fall off or stop working or something. Or just a counter spell. Something. It was just a weird choice that if this had been written and directed by women I feel like a lot of those

i was also very sad when all the sharks washed up on the oh yeah what a weird scene i forgot about that where that was like you're making me feel bad for sharks i don't like that poor hammerhead i did there's just a million of them and she's like they're gifts they're like what fucked up nancy that's that's pretty much exactly where the movie lost me because I don't, there's just a million of them. And she's like, they're gifts. They're like, what? Fucked up, Nancy. That's fucked up. That's pretty much exactly where the movie lost me. Because from that scene on, it's just like, well, I hope you enjoyed the first part. It also makes no sense, like, when they, because they do the seance, right?

And, like, all the glass things explode and all the animals go out and whatever. And then Neve Campbell is, like, sitting on the rock watching Rochelle's characters taking a beautiful nap. And then Nancy is walking across the water and it's like, what happened? Yeah.

I don't know. How did we arrive here? What happened? Oh, here's another. Because there's not a lot of male characters in this movie, which, amazing.

Most of them end up dead by the end. Most of them end up dead. And the remaining ones the of one character i don't know why i was like harping on this in my head i'm like man it's crazy that that character wasn't a pervert the gym teacher the swim coach oh yeah except for there is the moment where like he definitely like when laura lily or what is her name? Laura Lizzy. Which is like the craziest popular girl name ever.

When she like, you know, when she takes off her cap and her hair is falling out and then he like, it's literally like he's like, oh, she's not hot anymore so I won't pay attention to her. Let me look over here. And then he sees her do like the perfect dive and it's like, oh, now he pays attention to

the girl, the only girl of color in the whole fucking film i guess i didn't see it that way because he scolded laura once before where laura was making fun of rachel and he was like knock it off but i don't think he did enough in my opinion well he's also a character who's on screen for like 11 seconds in the whole movie i was i was lightly impressed by him but yeah i, I mean, between Nancy's gross stepdad who has a heart attack and dies, Skeet, who dies, and the snake man at the beginning

who gets run over by a car. Yeah, it's like half the men. Because the only other male characters with speaking roles in the movie are Chris's friends. Who is that tiny friend of Clueless? Breckenmire. Okay, I was like, I know who that guy is. Who's that tiny guy? He's in Clueless. He plays Brittany Murphy's love interest.

Little Prince Farquaad. Yeah. And then I don't even know the other dude. One of them is Mitt and one of them is Trey, I think. I don't even know which one's which. Which is great! Exactly. He's like, I don't know

what these character names are. They all represent the same. Oh, he's in Clueless, too. Yeah, yeah. He plays Brittany Murphy's love interest in Clueless. Oh, in Clueless. Got it, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I would argue that of the both male and female characters in this movie, of the women who aren't portrayed all that well, neither are any of the men. Like, all the men, except for, like like sarah's dad who hardly has screen time and it's kind of awesome yeah he is he's such a good dad and then when she there's like a scene where she's like laying a boundary she's like don't touch me go away and he's like okay yeah he does like oh man that definitely happened with me and my dad at some point he doesn't be like fuck off yeah he's like well teenage girls are confusing and then when he's like drop, you know, clearly we established that they look at her wrist and they're like, oh, you cut it the right way.

So we clearly established that, like, probably part of why they left San Francisco is because she tried to commit suicide. Suicide attempt. Yeah. Right. And then when he's dropping her off at school, he's like, you know, you don't have to go right away. Like, we can, you know, settle in.

You could take some time off. And that's another positive part of their friendship i thought was that she's not shamed or pushed to be asked questions about that yeah nancy's just like punk rock right and then like okay we accept you you're our friend and i was like man cool okay cool but i don't know man another fun moment in the half of the movie that i liked. Yeah. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? Just that this was written and directed by white guys.

Yeah. Obviously. In case you couldn't have assumed that off the fact that it's a movie that was released. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just exciting that they don't really talk about boys that they like really true there are none to like yeah and so i think that that's an exciting part of it but yeah i think it's just a bummer that it yeah but they're redoing it right aren't they oh i heard that that they're that they're thinking about redoing it which i'm like let's cast suzy dunn as Sarah. And let's have it be written by a woman and directed by a woman. Oh, yeah.

The craft reboot is actually a sequel. Oh, it's a sequel. Well, that's cool. Or just stop rebooting things and write another movie about witchy teenagers. Yeah. It's true. That'd be tight. Sure.

Speaking of characters talking to each other about things, this movie definitely does pass the Bechdel test. It basically passes immediately. I mean, they're not talking to each other, but they're like doing a seance and it's three girls. Oh, with their like chanting? Yeah. I mean, in terms of passing the test,

a million times it passes. It's almost like the opposite of the test. Like the boys are the characters that are obsessed with the girls and are only ever talking about girls. And men rarely talk to each other. There's only a few scenes where there's two men talking to each other about anything.

Usually, yeah. How they super love a girl or how they super think she fucking sucks and is a slut and blah blah blah. But they're all punished so that's important yeah yeah i mean most of the time they're talking about spells yeah and magic and and like all the what they want or like what their inner conflicts with each other are like yeah this movie very much goes along with the theme of the more a movie passes the bechdel test the more it tends to be financially successful.

Budget of this movie, 15 million. Box office, 56 million. All right. So there you go. Maybe write a female character. Even if you kind of fuck up the second half, still write female characters. You did it.

Yeah. Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. Yay. Zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Ooh. This is a tricky one. This is tricky. Because it's doing a lot of things right. It's a female

centered movie about female friendships, at least they're friends for the first part of it until that all goes to shit. But well, it is very upsetting to me that the male character who asks permission to kiss a girl, because at least half of the movies we talk

about there's a surprise kiss and it's supposed to be romantic yeah and it's like oh or like yeah she's supposed to like lift her foot up oh my god yeah so i was like oh he's gonna be because i couldn't remember much about this movie so when i was re-watching it i was like wow he's asking is he a good guy are we supposed to like him i like him right now and then yeah every story beat after that it's like oh no he's a nightmare person right so yeah there's the the female friendships and for the most part at the beginning they're uplifting each other and they're supporting each other and the movie isn't specifically there's not about the goal isn't they're trying to win over a man's love or anything like that. They're basically just trying to get better at witchcraft. Women in magic.

Women in magic. Although it is like, okay, Manon is a man. They keep using the he pronoun. So it's like, all right, why couldn't it be like a goddess? Especially because they're basically describing Mother Nature. I'm like, why is he a guy all of a sudden? Especially when they have Sarah then say Mother Earth. Like, why wouldn't they?

Like, if they're putting that pinnacle thing, and they have her say that last, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it had a lot of potential, but the movie, especially by the end, whenever all the girls have basically turned on each other, and it's not, you know, this feminist masterpiece that we're all hoping for anymore.

I'm going to give it, I guess like two and a half nipples. I almost said stars. Come on, we've been doing it a year. I know, but stars are five pointed things, which is like a very witchy thing. The pentagram, is that what it's called? I think so. Yes, please. Let me consult my crystals. The pentagram, is that what it's called? I think so.

Let me consult my crystals. Oh my gosh, I brought my crystals. They're in my pocket! I have to see them. Oh wait, you have it in your pocket right now? I have them in my pocket right now. Let me see. ASMR rattle them.

Oh my gosh. Wait, where did you guys go to get these? House of Intuition at Coal Park. I work right by gosh. There's so many. Wait, where did you guys go to get these? House of Intuition at Cal Park. Yeah. I work right by the one that's over here. Oh,

fun. Yeah. So I am going to give it, I'll give it three. Maybe I'll give it two and a half. It's a bummer because all the characters

have so much agency there with the exception of I wish we had seen Rochelle's home life. I think it's really bizarre that the only person to cover in the whole movie doesn't have a home life. So dumb. But I mean even excluding that

we're given a background for all these female characters and then they turn out to be crazy they turn out to be blah blah blah the second half of this movie was a big disappointment but in the first half of the movie we see so much more of a fully

developed female character than we would see in almost any other movie so it's hard nancy is kind of one of the bigger bummers for me because it's just like she's the child of an alcoholic and then ends up in a mental asylum like that is not a good message yeah it's such's such a bummer. It's bad. We don't find out what happens to her mom or whatever. Yeah, I really enjoyed the first half of this movie. If you happen to fall asleep in the middle, don't rewind it. You probably saw the fun part.

I'll give it two and a half nipples. I'll give one to Rochelle. I'll give one to Nancy. And then I'll give half a nippy to the gym teacher who didn't bother me. Oh yeah, I didn't give my nipples away. There aren't any cats in this movie

so I don't know who to give them to. That is weird that there's no cats. Give it to those worms and scorpions. Do scorpions have nipples? There's spiders. Spiders have eight legs. This has been Spider Facts with Caitlin. Just like how cats have eight nipples.

Exactly. There we go. I wish this movie was about four witches who people wronged them in that they were racist toward them or that they were assaulting them. And they're like, I'm going to get revenge. And then they get revenge. And then the world's a better place. That's what this movie should be about.

I don't know why. I'll write it. I'll write that movie. Anyway, would you like to write the movie? Yeah. I mean, I think you guys are spot on with Two and a Half. Like, I think that there are so many things that it did well. And then it like all of a sudden just like flipped and did it badly.

And then, you know, again, like this stuff with rochelle like yeah i think that it was really strong and cool to show that black girls do deal with white girls being racist to them in high school but then they don't show her home life they like only make her like the 2d character of the four other girls that they kind of make yeah i feel like she has the fewest lines of all of them. Yeah, yeah. And stuff. I think so, too. And they don't have anybody else of color to, like, back her up. And then they, like, you know. Give the girl a family, too. Right, right.

Give her more than a front door. Exactly, yeah. So, yeah, I think two and a half nipples is a good rating. Who gets your nips? Oh, man. Okay, well, yeah, definitely I think Rochelle gets one of them, for sure. I think the, like, store owner them for sure. I think the store owner definitely gets one. Witch ex machina.

Yeah, witch ex machina. And then also I think that probably Sarah's stepmom could get the half nipple. Because I mean she's not really in the movie but she like clearly is very supportive of them and she uprooted her life because

of what happened with Sarah. And she gets on that eight minute flight. I feel like it's like a good, healthy family relationship. I agree. Even though we don't really get to see her. I mean, there's a lot of speculating there.

Yeah, I am. But you know, that's what you have to do with most movies to fill in the blanks. Oh, I wonder what this female character must be like. Well, I'll just write the stepmom. But I feel like, yeah, because must be like. Well, I'll just write a depiction of a stepmom.

Yeah, because I feel like there's so many times in real life and in movies and stories where the stepmom is horrible and wouldn't even let the dad have that relationship with his daughter. Yeah, that subverts the Disney trip a little bit. Yeah, it's nice. Cool. Well, Susie,

thanks so much for being here. Oh my gosh, you guys. Thanks for having me. Of course. Where can people follow you online? Well, Susie, thanks so much for being here. Oh, my gosh. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having me. Of course. Where can people follow you online? Well, you guys can check out Act Like a Girl, as we said before. All the handles for socials for that are at actlikeagirltv. And then my personal handle is underscore bosswitch. Amazing.

Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Cool. You can follow the Bechtel cast on twitter instagram facebook our website subscribe on itunes rate it review it spotify sure go for it we're not stopping here stitcher.com i think or maybe it's an app i think it's an app Okay probably has a website still though Probably if you type in Stitcher.com It probably won't be porn

It'll probably be a website where you can maybe find our podcast And also Earth, fire, wind and water Which one are you? I'm fire Aristotle is earth Susie you're water and Jamie You're I'm fire. Aristotle is earth. Susie, you're water. And Jamie, you're...

I'm man earth. I'm God. All right, bye. Bye. Thanks. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks.

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