The Bechdel Cast - The Dark Knight with Pallavi Gunalan

Episode Date: October 3, 2019

Why are Caitlin and Jamie so serious? Because they're chatting with special guest Pallavi Gunalan about The Dark Knight. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @PallaviGunalan on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you.

You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories,

and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante. I'm Jamie Loftus.

And we talk about the representation of women in movies. It's true. This is the podcast where we do it. We've been doing it for years at this point. Wild. It's true. And we use the Bechdel test. Ever heard of it? Which is a media metric developed by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Ever heard of her? Also sometimes known as the Bechdel Wallace test, which we always forget to say. We're done with Wallace erasure over here. Yeah. But yeah, the Bechdel test, if you don't know, is a media metric that requires there be a scene that includes two named female identifying characters

who talk to each other about something other than a man. Most of the biggest franchises that have ever been released don't pass. Oopsies. Wait, can we do a test run of it? Let's do it. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin.

Why so serious? IDK. Maybe just need to go back on Wellbutrin and really start evaluating my options. Sure. I've been thinking about going back to therapy. Wow. Good for you. I should too.

The reason I don't like my current therapist would break the test. Okay. So let's not talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that pretty much passed the Bechdel test. Male therapist, I can't do it.

I don't know what it is. Yeah. I've always struggled with them. He just like he's he's so smart but he's also like what are you talking about I'm like this is this isn't gonna work anyways uh I'm very excited to talk about I think probably one of the most famous movies of our time I mean Iconique it it is yes and i think we can all agree a feminist text a feminist masterpiece yes yes yes womanhood has changed because of this oh yes uh but before we dive in let's introduce our guest she is a hilarious comedian she's one of the co-hosts of facial recognition comedy it's paula v ganalen hey hello hi thank you

thanks for having me of course I also don't like male therapists I it sucks it sucks he like saved my life

and then I wanted to get rid of him right away I felt really bad anyways it's been three years and I'm a coward oh god fun good stuff

so we're talking about The Dark Knight yes 2008 Christopherolan the second installment of the dark knight trilogy but i feel like the most famous and enduring installment yes agree polyvi what is your history your relationship with this film okay thank you so much for asking i love batman batman's my favorite I love Batman the animated series the best and then this movie the next okay I watched this movie and uh there's a part in it

where the Joker is just sticking his head out of a window and literally in the in the theater the audience just erupted in applause for this villain and i did too like we were all like so excited for him and i love movies and books like that where it takes like really horrible people and it in like makes you empathize with them people i mean people love this i mean there's like it's very sad because i think that this movie was released posthumously for Heath Ledger. And it was his greatest role. Yeah. So, I mean, everything's lined up for people to be addicted to the Joker. And he's so good.

He is. He's amazing. Say what you will, whether it's a feminist text or not, his performance is so, so good. I mean, I try to model my comedy after his jokes. Yes, he's also an iconic comedian. That's where my pencil went. All of our writing utensils are gone.

What happened? There's just blood everywhere. But yeah, I really love this movie and it was like my favorite movie for a while. A lot of my favorite movies are so misogynist and I don't know. Same. I have this.

This is a huge problem of mine in my life well mad max wasn't it was i think the reason that i loved it was because it was feminist fury road or mad max fury road yeah yeah i love that movie i also like really loved fight club and i think that i'm not allowed to say that on twitter no as a woman we've all been there yeah we've all gone through the fight club phase I mean it's just like live and learn baby I think my most problematic fave of these toxic male franchises

is the Indiana Jones series which I mean I still love it I let it go we don't eat monkey brains Temple of Doom is the worst one. It is, yeah.

But Last Crusade is a boatload of fun. But yet, it's so bad. It's wild. Yeah, I think The Dark Knight is that movie for a lot of people. What's your experience with it, Caitlin? I saw it in the theater. I think probably more than once. I think I maybe saw it a couple times in theaters

and then i promptly bought it on dvd i watched it i also like batman begins a lot and i think this might sound wild to say but i think i like batman begins better and i only realized this upon re-watching both of them to prep for this episode i was like oh there's like 30 minutes of the beginning of dark knight and 30 minutes at the end where it's like either hard to follow or kind of boring or like anticlimactic but batman begins is like a streamlined like story all the way through with like rising tension and it's just like i don't know and i like an origin story. Arrest me.

Whatever. You're in jail, baby. No one's arguing for the Dark Knight Rises. No, no, no, no. That was actually filmed. I went to Carnegie Mellon and part of that was filmed on one of the buildings. Like the part where the steps. I did a microscopy and I had classes in that building.

Isn't the football stadium that's in that movie also the Steelers? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I thought. Whoa. Anyway. Wild. So yeah, I love this movie. I haven't revisited it though in probably like five years or so.

Jamie, what about you? I love this movie too. I've never been a superhero person as loyal fans of the show will know but I feel like this movie came out when I was in high school and it just like everybody saw it I hadn't seen I remember seeing this movie and then having to go back and watch Batman Begins because I hadn't had any interest in it and then I mean yeah I've seen I think I've seen the full trilogy twice but I've seen this movie probably five or six times because it's I don't know it might yeah it's it, it's the one that people tell you to watch over and over. And it's the one that every toxic boyfriend makes you watch with him.

So I have seen this movie a bunch. I always really enjoy it. Also hadn't revisited it in at least five years. And, you know, a lot to discuss. Certainly. Fridge, fridge, fridge, fridge. So much fridging. Yeah.

Okay. Wait, what, fridging? Oh, so that's like when... Well, let's... Oh, yeah, fridge, fridge. So much fridging. Yeah. Okay. Wait, what, fridging? Oh, so that's like when... Well, let's... Oh, yeah, we'll get there. So should I just do the recap? Yes. Yes.

Okay. Yes, fridge. This movie's very long. I'll make this as quick as possible. It is very long. Two and a half hours. Anyway, so we open, the Joker is robbing a mob bank. He's killing his criminal buddies.

We're kind of thinking it evokes Spider-Man 2 when Alfred Molina is wearing the fedora at the bank. Right. And Joel McHale is there. And Alfred Molina is like throwing bags of coins. Much goofier movie. I feel like it's in a different tone. It is very goofy. Much goofier movie. I feel like it's in a different tone. Yeah. Very.

It is very goofy. Then we cut to Batman. He stops the scarecrow because I guess he forgot to do that in Batman Begins. Oops. I don't know. And then Batman throws a dog. There was a lot of dog throwing in this movie. A lot of. I did not like that.

Towards animals. I was just like, whose dog is this? I mean, the representation of Rottweiler specifically in this movie is not positive. No. Anyway, so meanwhile, there's a new district attorney in town, Harvey Dent. He is dating Bruce Wayne's love interest, Rachel Dawes. Who we're just like, oh, it's Maggie Gyllenhaal now. It's no longer Katie Holmes.

Right, sure. We'll take whatever Scientology gives us. Right. Scientology giveth and it taketh away. And Bruce Wayne is jealous because he wants to kiss Rachel. Gordon, Lieutenant Gordon. Feminist icon Gary Oldman.

There's a whole laundry list of problematic men cast in this movie. For sure. So he needs Dent's approval to get warrants to search and, I guess, seize these mob banks. Meanwhile, Joker shows up to a mob meeting, and they're all trying to figure out how to keep their money safe. And the Joker's like, oh, you should pay me to kill Batman. And the mob doesn't like Joker, but he is wacky and unhinged. He's so funny. He's silly.

And he makes his own clothes. He's like That's So Raven in that way. That's the only character I think of when i think of someone who makes their own clothes she's a style icon oh is she oh she had a sewing machine in her room oh yeah it was awesome um anyways but so joker is scary so they're like oh well i guess we gotta do what he says and then there's this guy mr lau who does all the bookkeeping for the mob so Batman goes to Hong Kong and brings him back to Gotham and Dent and Rachel are like you're in big trouble mister so Lau gives up all the names of the mob boys so that Harvey Dent can put them away in jail my boys back at it again joker does not like that this happened so he's like hey batman take off

your mask and show yourself and every day that you don't do this i will kill people meanwhile bruce wayne throws a fundraiser for harvey dent because he wants dent to be the new like face of hope and justice be tipping the scale with candidates. We know this well. Well, he wants this because he basically wants to retire from being Batman so that he can kiss Rachel. Because in the first movie, she's like, while you're still Batman, we can't be together.

So Joker shows up to the fundraiser to go after Dent. And this is after he has killed the police commissioner and the judge who sentenced all of the mob boys uh so batman fights him off and then joker tries to kill the mayor but gordon takes a bullet for him during this parade and gordon dies or does he i forgot that this happened exhausting because then they have to go to his wife and be like, him dead. And then they go back to his wife and say, him fine.

Well, at least they got, you know, some of his wife in there through that. His wife. That's like a third of the women. That's true. It's, yeah, women weeping over Gary Oldman's death. So, you know, it's fiction. Jesus Christ.

So Joker names Rachel Dawes as his next victim. And Batman doesn't want any more blood on his hands. So he decides to reveal himself in the hopes that Joker will stop killing people. But before he can do this, Harvey Dent steps up and is like, I'm the Batman. And his reasoning for this is that when the Joker attacks again, the real Batman will be able to swoop in and take him down. So as they're getting Harvey Dent to safety or they've arrested him, I'm not sure, they're transporting him somewhere. The Joker shows up and there's this big chase scene which is very fun uh shortly after that is the scene where he's like his head is out the window and his the wind is in his hair and he's just like ah the iconic yeah but batman shows up to stop the joker and then we find out

that gordon is not dead after all and he arrests and locks up the joker and then gets promoted to commissioner yay for him problematic men in charge hurrah and the joker claps for him yes a little jokey clap it was like a he does nancy pelosi clap he was like i had his time in every way yeah but joker has already kidnapped dent and rachel or he's had his goons do it and he put he's put them in two different locations and batman has to choose who he's going to go save so he goes after rachel he shows up there at the address and harvey is where joker said that rachel would be so explosions go off, Rachel dies, and then half of Harvey's face gets burned off, and then he becomes Two-Face, and he's bad now.

He's upset. Yeah, he's got a new look. He got a glow up. A new attitude. Or a glow down. A lit up fire. And it's so gruesome. He would be dead. I don't understand how he's still alive

i remember the first time seeing that in theaters and being like i was like i think i was like 15 but i was like oh it is scared graphic it's like and that same thing happened in like breaking bad when did you guys see breaking bad i stopped after like four seasons well like one of the major bad guys like who's half his face is blown off but he just like dies. Right that's what would happen. That makes way more sense. But he dies like he like still walks outside

and then falls down and you're like your face is gone. Right. Wild. Anyway Harvey Dent is so strong and everyone loves him so he survives and becomes Two-Face. Wow. And then Joker blows up a hospital because Batman still has not revealed himself. And then his next target are these two fairies.

One is full of prisoners and one is full of civilians, and both are full of explosives. So he does the classic trolley probby. Love it. Doesn't that happen in Spider-Man too? That happens in most superheroes. But that also like they just had that with Rachel and Dent. They were like pick your poison. Right.

Yeah. He just did that. Right. Get some new moves, babe. And he's doing this social experiment to see if they will blow each other up, these boats and he did just do that why didn't i pick up on that but it's more people and it's very obvious bad guys it's very obvious yeah it's like a from trolley problem to bigger trolley problem okay this didn't work the first time i tried it let's make it big yeah he's like let's raise the stakes let's you know escalate so dent meanwhile is going after the crooked cops who sold him and rachel out and

he's killing them and then batman finds joker via this like crazy surveillance machine and i say yeah uh-huh there's some really weird stuff glorified in this movie. Like, thank God the NSA was spying on everyone. Or we wouldn't have been able to find Mr. Joke. Yeah. Yep. And then the boats don't blow each other up. And then the Joker's like, hey, wait a minute.

I thought that would work. And then he's caught. But there's a whole thing after this. Then Harvey Dent has kidnapped Gordon's family because I guess like Gordon was okay with having crooked cops in his unit. Something like that. I don't know. It's scary, Oldman. You're just like, it's probably, I don't know.

I don't know. He's supposed to be good. He's supposed to be good. And then Batman shows up once again and saves the day dent gets killed but they all have to pretend like he was still good since he was like gotham's white knight right so gotham's dark knight that's the name of the movie is going to take the fall for dense crimes because something about a hero that we have but we need but do we deserve it? It's hard to

know. It's the one we deserve but not the one we need right now. It's weird. People think it should be flipped and stuff. I don't know. I know I've seen it as a back tattoo. Oh wow. Let's take a quick break

and then we'll jump into the discussion. Yay. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers

and Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.

Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it.

It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my slok, you hollum. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions.

Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Santer. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take?

Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, man. I was thinking a lot about a friend of the cast, Whitmer Thomas. I was just thinking of his Joker bit for most of this movie. Oh, I either haven't seen it or haven't seen it in a while because I don't really remember it.

They talk about it a lot on his podcast, American Arts and Culture Review. So I wanted to shout that out at the top because I was thinking about it consistently throughout this iconic movie. Wow, thinking about a man's work, Jamie. Okay. Listen, I'm very problematic and I'm honestly canceled. I blame her male therapist. Yeah. He probably- Incepting you. Another Christopher Nolan thing. Okay. Can we talk about Christopher Nolan right at the top? Because he has some problems.

I'm a fan of his work generally. He has a major issue with, well, let's talk about fridging, the concept of fridging. So I have some info here. Women in refrigerators, it was actually- What? Oh, it's exactly what it sounds like? It's literally exactly what it sounds like. That is so funny. I think we first talked about this in our Lara Croft episode with Danny Fernandez.

So way back in the day. But for a refresher, it was originally a website created in 99 by a group of feminist comic book fans that list examples of the comic book trope whereby female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered, sometimes to stimulate protective traits as a plot device intended to move a male character story arc forward. So Gail Simone is generally the woman credited with this, and it basically comes from – do you have the information of – the reason it's called Fridging is because of a specific comic book plot where a wife or girlfriend is killed and literally stuffed in a fridge to motivate the male character. I don't know the specific source of that. So if we have any fans who know, please. I don't know the specific comic book being referenced, but that's why it's called Fridging. But now it's kind of just shorthand for killing off a female character usually a wife a girlfriend love interest killing off kidnapping brutalizing in some way yeah to motivate and to move the story

forward which this movie is very guilty of several times uh but also christopher nolan's work in general is guilty of if we're thinking of his filmography, where you start with Memento, which is he's trying his wife. That movie is his wife. Inception is his wife. Batman, The Dark Knight is his girlfriend. It is such a consistent pattern in his work that from what I could tell the first time in his entire filmography, the first time that doesn't happen is, what's the movie about space? Oh, Interstellar. That's the first movie where someone isn't fridged. There's no fridges in space. There's no. And that's why. There's nowhere to put women in space. He was just like, well, it doesn't seem to be an option. But it is i mean it's i i don't want to like i mean it's by no means a reason to knock his work as a whole but it is interesting to like see how long it takes for

auteur filmmakers like christopher nolan to pick up on or get enough blowback of like you can't this is so lazy and shitty and you know right because the implications of fridging i mean there's many of them it's that a woman first of all it means we have to usually see a woman being brutalized on screen the implication is that a woman is much weaker than her male counterparts and then and just not as important to the story. Right. It's just damsel in distress. Exactly. That's all it is. Right.

But, like, just turned up to an 11. And the movie I was forgetting about was The Prestige, where Hugh Jackman's assistant wife dies. And then the story basically starts. Yes. So The Dark Knight is not an exception to this rule. Chris Nolan made Interstellar, which I've never seen. It's amazing. People love it.

It's because they actually do black holes right. It's the first time I've ever seen science in a movie used accurately. It's because Kit Thorne, who won the Nobel Prize in physics, consulted and they listened to him. That's amazing. We should mention that Paula V is a woman in STEM. Ever heard of her? For now. I need to go to school.

But yeah, this is a movie where it happens. And then just to extend it a little, it doesn't happen at Interstellar. And then there's no women in that Boy Island movie he made. Are you happy? Dunkirk. Are you happy now? There's no fridging because there are no women.

There's no women. He's like, I fixed it. There's no fridges in in space there's no women on the island he's like harry styles happy so yes there is that's my comment on chris nolan as it took he he figured it out for exactly one movie yeah and it's not this one it is not this one because it does certainly happen a lot so we have essentially one main female character in this movie. We have a couple secondary characters, but as far as the main one who still doesn't get that much screen time, it is Rachel Dawes.

She is framed as the love interest of two different men, so another female character put into a love triangle situation. But it's crazy that she's a love interest of two men, and they both still can't tell that she's not Katie Holmes. You know what I mean? They're so in love triangle situation. But it's crazy that she's a love interest of two men and they both still can't tell that she's not Katie Holmes. You know what I mean? Like, they're so in love with her. Like, no, I'm just in love with the idea of you. Maggie Gyllenhaal, man,

she does her best with what she's given here. I like her a lot. Yeah. I like her too. But yeah, so just to continue this fridging, damseling conversation um it first happens during the the fundraising party that bruce wayne throws for harvey dent uh the joker shows up he threatens her kind of has a knife to her face he's telling a story about his wife

but i think his wife is fake in which he's damseling her too right yeah exactly his fictional his wife yeah so batman comes in and saves her by like punching the joker in the face i just think it's funny that the reason that she's put in that situation where he like grabs a knife and puts it to her face is because he's like threatening an old man and she's like okay knock it off oh no he's like oh you got a little fight in you oh yeah she's like, okay, knock it off. Oh no. He's like, oh, you got a little fight in you. She's like, I'm damsel. She's like, I'm scared.

A few minutes later, Joker grabs her again, holds a gun to her head and then drops her out of a window and then Batman has to like dive after her and save her again. Yeah. Also, I feel like that's not how gravity works, but okay. Right. He has his suit. His acceleration due to gravity in his Batman suit is faster than normal because of all of his science stuff. Okay, cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not a woman in STEM, but I feel like that's how that works. Then she gets damseled again, like for the third and finale time, where the Joker's goons, we've understood, have kidnapped her, put her in this warehouse full of explosives, and then she is killed when the explosives go off. Right. This is, I mean, there's a lot written about this character. From what my research indicates, and I'm not a bat head, so simply go off in the comments

if I'm wrong, but she's one of the only characters in this film franchise that was added for the movie. She is not a character that appears prior to this film franchise. Oh, so she was not in the comics or anything like that? She isn't, no. Oh, interesting. There's a number of other, I mean, I think they appear in other Batman movies. There's a number of other Batman girlfriends.

Vicki Vale is the one from the Tim Burton Batman. I remember that. Right. Which we did cover many, many moons ago. I know, it's wild. One of our first episodes. But yeah, she doesn't appear in the comic books originally and I feel like that is kind of so it's not even an adaptation problem which I think some of the issues with this movie kind of are and all comic book movies sort

of come up against that but Rachel that doesn't seem to actually apply to her so it's kind of like even more obnoxious so the screenwriters just fucked up the screenwriters fridged her which and i would argue she has some mary sue qualities uh and there's just i don't know like she's just kind of like a go-to like every trope i don't i like well i don't have a handle on who she is at all, really. I also think it's like crazy that like she she's wavering on like who she wants to be with. And she's painted like she kisses Bruce Wayne when she's with Harvey. So then it's like and then she's like sacrificed. So like you don't even get to like her as much as you want to.

Well, that's I have a theory about that. And I don't know if anyone else has read it this way but i feel like there's a read of it where the movie feels justified in killing her because she doesn't choose because she doesn't she was gonna leave yeah i feel the same way yeah okay yeah where it's like she's made to seem like a little bit less lovable before she even though it's like objectively she's making the right i mean if you if i mean if if we were really she wouldn't choose a little bit less lovable before she, even though it's like, objectively, she's making the right, I mean, if we were really, she wouldn't choose either of them.

I have, okay, two things. I have a joke about how Batman's the OG fuckboy because he's like, listen, I gotta be a Playboy billionaire during the day. It's part of my cover-up. It's my disguise. And then Superman and Spider-Man are like, we're in monogamous relationships and work at a newspaper what so i just think it's like it's like she she doesn't pick the fuck boy and then is punished for it and then and then also

like i think it's so funny like not funny but it's like ironic i don't know when she she's like blown up in the middle of a sentence. She gets interrupted. It's more realistic. By a bomb. Yeah, and then Harvey's screaming at her instead of hearing her last words. He's very emotional, that one.

Rachel, I think in general, deserves better. We do know what her job is. I feel like it is almost used to just justify her being around Harvey. Harvey and by extension sort of Bruce. Because we don't really see her like do much for her job. She's the assistant DA. So arguably she's a villain too.

And then she's also fucking the DA. Right. Inappropriate. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which is like... Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's right. So we know what she does for a living. At least we get that.

At least we know that she's in law. And she seems to be good at it? I have no idea. But we don't see her do it. She was on time when Harvey wasn't. There you go. And, okay, so in that scene, this is toward the beginning. In this scene, she's waiting for this trial to begin.

They're in the courtroom. And then Harvey shows up and he's like, i am late and he's like were you worried you might have to like do this without me and she's like i know these briefs backwards yeah and he's like well i don't give a fuck i'm gonna do it anyway this is my thing anyways i'm new here and i'm better than you yeah i mean it's she there are moments that like but it's like we don't really see that really come into play very much. Like, we see, it's nice to see her be, like, okay, she is clearly good at her job. But, like, that's never really plot relevant, the fact that she's good at her job. And we still don't really even see her do her job at any point.

Yeah. It's like the bare minimum of, like, describing who she is and where she is i appreciate the gesture but i don't know she could kind of do anything and the movie wouldn't change right um whoopsies and also this whole time this was the first time where i was like and someone i tweeted about something about batman and someone was just like oh wouldn't it be better if like batman and tony stark simply paid their taxes they would probably be doing the world a lot more good if they just pay their taxes i mean chances are they're probably getting huge tax breaks because of like all their

corporations all that stuff that's like i used to think that like batman was my favorite superhero too but now i'm realizing he like sucks. Like there's, cause there's so much discussion about like class and poverty and how it's causing all this crime in Gotham. This is, it happens a little bit more in Batman Begins, but it's like, you're a gazillionaire.

If you just redistribute your wealth instead of like cosplaying as a bat and punching people. I was like, stop cosplaying as Halloween animals and do Halloween animals and pay your taxes, sir. Are you guys looking to see an action movie starring Bill Gates? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the hero that we deserve and need. You saw that video of him.

Have you guys seen that video of him jumping over the rolly chair? No. He could be a superhero. He might be horrible. I have have no idea all billionaires are scary to me yes um but it does feel like a very like batman could not be written now and be such a sympathetic i feel like with the comparison to bill gates i think he falls more into like elon musk's territory because he's pushing like technology and stuff. Right.

And so like as a scientist and engineer, I feel like because people are like, Elon, why don't you just like fix Flint instead of going to space? And I'm like, yeah, OK, don't throw your car into space. That's just space trash. Yeah. And don't throw your fridge into space. Dear God. But don't.

A woman will end up in there. Yeah. Don't fridge your fridge. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. You guys got to watch Bill Gates jump over this chair really quick. But I feel like, you know, there's a need and it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive for all these things to happen.

But let's watch Bill Gates. Oh, my God. Wow. Yo, he got jumped. I would watch that movie. We'll post that little YouTube clip on our Twitter. It's a lot. Anyway, yeah, I mean, I do mean it as like a joke but

just like the idea of like presenting a billionaire as like the superhero to end all other superheroes feels like a very particular you know there's a there's a time where that like american dreamy stuff can succeed and i feel like now is maybe not that definitely also did anyone feel like Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne is just Christian Bale's Patrick Bateman like they act the exact same to me and they look the exact same because they're Christian Bale yeah but like yeah but he's I mean they're even like dressed and styled the same way. Like their hair is the same. Like they look identical and they act identical. I was thinking of like the scene toward the beginning where he comes in with like the ballerina.

And he's like, let's put these tables together. And Harvey Dent's like, I don't think they'll allow us. And he's like, they should. I own this place. And it's like, I feel like that is such a Patrick Bayman thing. I don't know. Anyway. But I think, oh, yeah, his character of Bruce Wayne, you're saying. Yes. Oh, I see. Maybe. Yeah. and it's like i feel like that is such a patrick bateman thing i don't know anyway but i think oh

yeah his character of bruce wayne you're saying yes oh i see maybe yeah when he's bruce wayne yeah he is being patrick bateman when he's batman he's like i'm batman yeah yeah but yeah his bruce wayne to me read a lot like patrick bateman but more importantly and more relevant part of Bruce Wayne's persona when he's not Batman when he's like you know being his whatever regular self part of that persona is to treat women like objects fuck boy yeah yeah you touched on this a little bit already but like he rolls into Harvey Dent's fundraiser with like three women on his arm. The ballet has to be canceled because he takes the entire like ballet full of dancers onto his yacht. Although that ballerina Natasha is my favorite character in the movie. She's smart.

I love what she was saying about vigilantes. Wait, that doesn't count because there were two dudes in there. But like she is talking about that's when two women meet. I don't know any other scene where two women meet and talk. There is one other that is wild. But yeah, I liked that. I mean, she's in it for literally 45 seconds. Someone was like, Natasha, are you the prima?

But then Batman cuts her off. He interrupts. She's the prima ballerina for the Moscow Ballet. And you're like, she was talking. Everyone's getting interrupted in this movie. All the women are. And then she's clearly only there because Bruce Wayne brought her to be like, See, Rachel, I have a date too.

I go on dates. I have a girl, lady. But the twist is, she's cool. And she's like, Batman, what the? Like everyone was like, she's like, why are we relying on this like cosplayer to save the world? And she like kind of criticizes Harvey as the DA for counting on a Batman to do his job for him. And you're like, oh, yeah, outside of this world, that would seem very irrational. So I just I was here for Natasha.

I was hoping she'd come back, but she did not. No, she didn't. But shout out to her. One last thing on the fridging conversation. Gordon's his wife and children also get damseled and infringed essentially by Harvey Dent at the end. Also, Gordon's son is credited with a name. Gordon's daughter is not. Huh.

Fun. Wow. That's because he said he loved her more. That's the only reason he loved the boy more. Because it's a boy. And so you're like, oh, so that's Jimmy. Cool. Upsetting.

But yeah, his daughter is not credited even at the end of the movie with a name. And she doesn't have any lines. I think the little boy at least says something. He asks about Batman when Batman runs away. Right. And then you can tell that it's going to be the little kid that's excited about the superhero or whatever. But the little girl was never like, what the fuck, Dad? You love him more than me. Fuck you.

That's not going to haunt their relationship for decades. She's going to have to go to a male therapist after this. Okay, first of all, that hurts. Just a quick thing on Two-Face. Whenever he says, I make my own luck, I'm like, Jack Dawson, Titanic, fuck. Okay. Well, that's what Cal Hockley says, right? He's like, I make my own luck, I'm like, Jack Dawson, Titanic. Yes. Fuck. Okay. Well, that's what Cal Hockley says, right?

He's like, I make my own luck. I make my own luck. Yeah. It's like, oh. I mean, Aaron Eckhart, but what about Billy Zane? Billy Zane visibility is very low in this movie. Extremely low. It's at an all-time low.

They don't even reference him. And Aaron Eckhart, man, Aaron Eckhart is so weird because he can be so good in movies and also so bad. Oh, really? He, well. well i frankenstein you gotta check out i frankenstein oh god it's the movie of my life i love it so much it's he plays sexy frankenstein well didn't he do that in this movie too sorry which is it wouldn't patch him up it's the opposite effect it's even i mean he can play this exact role very well or terribly i think he did i think he did a good job of transitioning to like he played both characters pretty well i think that yeah they didn't give him enough time to like transition or whatever but it like it still was pretty good in this movie at least i

like his performance in this movie a lot. Rewatching it this time, I was like, they went too overboard with his face. Really? I like it. That's what it looks like in the comics. I don't know. I really like it. I like it because it also gives him that grin like the Joker. Oh, that's true.

They all have these smiles. Permanent grins. Yeah. But scary ones. Yeah. But also, in these movies like superhero movies are supposed to be like ridiculous you know like you go in like knowing that fucking gravity doesn't work for batman or that like his face can be blown off and he'll

still survive like i guess well was it tommy lee jones who plays two-face in the earlier batman and like he just has like a bunch of scars on his face. I'm like, that is, you know, still a bit gruesome, but you know. Yeah.

I liked it. I liked that they went all the way with it. Cause I feel like this is like gritty Batman. This is the gritty, not gritty. Shout out to a queer and feminist icon. Gritty. Sure.

But this is like there. And I feel like all movies were trying to be like this for a while where they're like, it's very dark. But this is, this is, this is like there and i feel like all movies were trying to be like this for a while where they're like it's a very dark reboot but this is this is this is okay i have a lot of thoughts about this yeah this is exactly what batman the animated series did like this is how it shifted batman and all of these other superhero things that tried to like emulate them after batman the animated series like the even the way that they like animated it was on like dark paper and they like painted light on top of that and it was like the grittiness

that came in so after the animated series is when all of these things shifted before it was like more silly there was fucking nipples on the suit which I think but and then like Batman the animated series was also responsible for the two voices of Batman

or whatever. Yeah. And for like the crazy laugh. Yeah. And then all of these other superhero movies were like, we're going to make this darker now. Got it. Yeah. All right. Good to know.

Except for like The Flash is still fun. The Flash is like, I should go real fast. Like in every movie. I mean, in this movie, it works super well. Like it makes sense that every superhero movie was trying to be this for a while and shout out to han zimmer for the soundtrack what a good score it's such a good score yes love some zimmer love us some zimmer we got to take a quick break but we will come right back Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

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thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Oh, yeah. There's a few other female characters in this movie. There are. Well, can we talk about Ramirez?

Yes. I also want to talk about the representation of people of color in this movie, because I think that will kind of nicely transition yeah yeah because the only people of color in the movie are bad guys criminals people in the mob villains or people who have been incarcerated yeah there were uh there was a cop that was killed that was black oh oh the commissioner yes uh no there was a cop that was like hey what are you doing here and then he got shot in the face by Joker. There's that one.

Come on. There's that guy. There's a couple law enforcement officers, too. Of course, there's also Morgan Freeman, who is an ally to Bruce Wayne in Batman. I mean, ally to a billionaire. Yes. Love it. He had some ethics.

No, he definitely did. He did hate the NSA machine so that was good um but he is on the list of bad people IRL which we will get to oh right yes oh fuck I forget all of them there's too many it's so hard to keep track of them um but the the majority of people of color you see in the movie are framed as being bad guys. And then one of the other female characters that we get to meet is Detective Ramirez. She seems good. She seems like a good person. But then she turns out to be traitorous because she sold out Rachel to the Joker and his goons. She was, I mean, and again, it's like we don't have really the context

of how this character is portrayed in the comic books, and I think she is in the comic books. Yeah, that's hard. The main thing with Ramirez is, like, it took, they don't say her name until she's been on screen a couple of times. And so that was, I don't, I i mean she's probably in batman begins as well but i'm like i have no fucking clue what this character's name is and then it's like the third or fourth time she's in the movie for a couple seconds someone says this is anna ramirez you're

like oh great thank you i appreciate that i mean she ended up being duplicitous and one of the times that this movie sort of passes the bechdel test is when anna ramirez is like being she's being held at gunpoint by aaron eckhart right and she calls his wife it's a mind fuck of a pass yeah she is being held at gunpoint by aaron eckhart but it does technically pass uh oops yeah but she's talking oh, she's just trying to, like, get them out of the house or whatever. Yeah, she has called Barbara, who is named Gordon, Gordon's wife. Yeah, Ramirez is like, oh, you got to get away. We can't trust those cops. Go to this address. Yeah.

Blah, blah, blah. So, although she keeps saying, like, he wants you to do this. He wants you to go here. So yeah, about Gordon. Yeah. Yeah. I had I had one two line exchange in that conversation. But either way, it's a wild it's a wild reveal that you're like, oh, she's being held at gunpoint.

Great. I don't know if this happens in the comic books. I at very least appreciated that her betrayal is not irrational and there is a reason that she's doing it we like learn that her mother is sick in the hospital and she's given her little trolley choice of like do i save my mother or do i kind of sell out this family so yeah at very least i feel like she's not so underwritten that you're just like oh she's just bad like you do understand why she's doing what she's doing yeah but it still means that the i think the one woman of color in the

entire movie is made to be presented in such a way where the audience then hates her i don't mean well i feel like you don't hate her i don't hate her yeah all right it's but it but not a good not a ethical person in the way that all these men who have to like stand up for what they believe in are who make the right decision yeah I don't know I mean yeah there's definitely I mean again a

Christopher Nolan thing it's just like they're very white movies and so when people of color are portrayed in certain ways it's like there's no one really to compare it to and but it's interesting because like at so many points in this movie the Joker's like there's no one really to compare it to and but it's interesting because like at so many points in this movie the joker's like make a decision pick the person you want to kill right and she had that choice too with her mom versus uh like everybody else basically but it's interesting that like right before that the convict like threw the thing out the window

because he was a person of color who also had the decision where like he would be killed um and so it's like it's it also is like a power play like with convicts versus you know police officers and like class stuff so i think like at least they had that that's true i mean the the on the two ferries we have the like all the incarcerated people and like the guy who's like i'm gonna do what we should have done 10 minutes ago. And he throws the detonator out the window. And then meanwhile, on the other boat. And he takes it from a white police officer. So the police officer gave it to him thinking that he was going to blow up the other boat. Right.

And you see the failure in the police officer's ethics and the rise of this convicts. Right. And then on the other boat is all the civilians. And then there's like one white guy in particular who's like, let's kill them. They made their choice. They're murderers. And then even he can't go through with it, but like,

and then everyone around him is disappointed that he can't go through with it. But everyone on the convicts boat, like the, the, the group of people he's like friends with or whatever, like go to protect him. Like if you see, he like walks back and then like all of his black friends like surround him

and are like yeah this is it my theory is that everyone on the civilian boat is actually like guilty of insider trading but they've never been like convicted and then everyone on the like boat of incarcerated people are we're in jail for like yeah they were like for like a marijuana charge yeah yeah and they're all actually like non-violent offenders that's not necessarily a theory but probably i mean honestly accurate especially given their facial reactions when they didn't kill a bunch of people right i yeah i i feel like that it's that that scene does a part of what i like about this movie well where it's just kind of like a very comic booky like who is good and who isn't what is good what is bad and like people who are put in certain boxes

aren't actually that and I mean it's definitely like a very egregious example but I don't know I always like that scene too um but there should I mean there should be more people of color in this franchise and seen in different roles. I totally agree. For sure. There is another woman in this movie that we didn't mention. And she is the one who's having sex in his bedroom with that man while he goes into his safe room. And she's like, are you kidding me?

When shit goes down at the fundraising party. And she's putting her blouse back on, as we all normally do, very carefully buttoning the shirt up. Oh, I can't leave a room unless all the buttons are just so... Not wrinkled at all. A sex positive icon. Truly. In this movie.

Young woman fucking an old man. Well, if we bring up her, we also have to bring up the woman who, I think his name is like Salvatore Maroney. He's in a nightclub with this woman and she's like can we go somewhere else we can't hear each other talk and then he's like what does she think I want to hear you talk yeah like feminist icon Maroney Salvatore Maroney this is who we get to choose from of the the female characters in the film and we and I think we

picked Natasha right I think Natasha's the best one. She should have been seen more. And we briefly, so we mentioned Barbara Gordon a couple times, but she only really exists in relation to her husband. We see her primarily

doing mother stuff and being damseled. Right. I think... Crying. Barbara is also the name of... Oh my God, what's his name from The Rock?

Yeah. That sounds right. Barbara Hummel is on the grave., oh my God, what's his name from The Rock? Yeah. That sounds right, too. Barbara Hummel is on the grave. Barbara Hummel. Yeah, his wife. Wild. The list of disgraced men, I'll just go through quickly. I also-

But they were all just, like, it was outed after the movie, right? This is all post-08. So we didn't know at the time, but Christian Bale- Which is important context. Yeah. Oh, what did Christian Bale do? This is all post-08. So we didn't know at the time. Right. Which is important context. Oh, what did Christian Bale do? He was arrested for assault following a dispute between him and his mother and sister. Oh, shit. Yeah.

I was trying to read up on this. The details seem murky. I don't quite know enough to comment. He denied the allegations, and it seems like they were kind of dropped, which for me never necessarily means that that is any reflection. Right. So it was from his mother and sister that? Yes. And he's also been known to have outbursts on set a lot.

Yeah, and on stage with that accent. Crazy. Put that away, Christian. How can we never figure out how to act less cockney i don't know the ultimate twist yeah that was crazy that he's been in film for so long and none of us fully understood what he's because he's almost always doing an american accent or like a more posh british accent and then yeah you hear his accent in real life and you're like, oh my. This man hasn't received enough awards. Right.

That's the takeaway. We've got Michael Caine who loves Brexit. Oh, what? Oh my God. He's a Brexiter. Okay. But he's not. So he's just an idiot then.

He's just too rich for his own good. Yeah. Okay. But he's not like a malicious idiot. I mean, I would argue that anyone who is like in full support of Brexit is like a bad person. Well, I think like. And like inherently racist and, you know, things like that. Oh, I see. Well, I put them in like different categories and like assault and like these.

Yeah. I mean, well, speaking of Gary Oldman assaulted his wife. I forget what year that was, but that came to light. That came out. That's so sad. Right before he won an Oscar anyways. So really a wash for Gary. And then Morgan Freeman made many, many unwanted sexual advances and remarks towards many women on different sets.

And then he also had a weird thing with his like stepdaughter or someone who was in his family. Oh, that one I don't know about. Again, it's so hard to keep track of all the horrible men and all of their horrible misdeeds. And it's exhausting. It's a weird. Yeah. And this is just a side fact about Christian Bale that I learned today is that he at one point was Gloria Steinem's stepson.

Oh. Oh. So he's a feminist icon. Wait, he was her stepson? But his real mom and his sister is who he assaulted. Right. He did not. I think that more people would know if he assaulted Gloria Steinem.

And also, I mean, it's worth saying that all of these men are still working and are doing just fine. Yes. So make of that what you will. This movie was... I miss Heath. I know. We barely talk about Heath.

I mean, yeah. Just fantastic. And no complaints. Nothing's come out. Nothing's come out. As far as we know a terrific guy uh i wanted to touch briefly on how mental illness is demonized in this movie well that's i mean the joker's character in a nutshell but but batman stands up for it right he was like that guy's a

schizophrenic and you wanted to hurt him yes so basically that's that one line and then everybody else is crazy yeah yeah so one of joker's goons is described as being a paranoid schizophrenic the kind of mind that joker attracts so i don't know if it's even in defense of that man or like saying like you shouldn't you know i think he was trying to sorry i keep interrupting you on this feminist podcast my therapist told me i have masculine energy she was like you're like an an alpha guy girl i mean girl you're just like okay that is a free session right but but i think he he stopped someone from hurting yes he stops Dent from shooting him. Right. I mean, for me,

there's so many overly serious toxic male tropes that are given power in this movie. It comes down to kind of an adaptation issue for me where it's like we have the idea of asylums in

this world are super stigmatized, and I feel like they are in a lot of comic book universes. This is something that isn't really improved upon in this movie, which I think that the only thing it does is present the Joker as more complicated and is to an extent multifaceted and we know that he is in pain from enduring being stigmatized and there is that i don't think it really goes far enough i think that well since they name this specific illness paranoid schizophrenia and then because that's like the one specific

representation we have of mental illness in this movie and then having that character who has that illness end up being a villain and a bad guy like right who needs to die right that does a lot of harm and to say like oh it's the kind of mind that Joker attracts, which means apparently then Joker goes after a lot of different people with maybe an array of mental illnesses. And that means that all of those people with mental illnesses are demonized, too, because they're all bad guys. I think in general, like this is an issue. I love like superhero comic books, movies, everything. But like this is an issue in general is like mental illness. And then also like i hate

the way scientists are portrayed because they're often like the same thing it's like the mad scientist like there's never any like good engineers other than like batman and iron man right like so i'm like we're not all fucking crazy like we're not and i think they often couple those things together like the most brilliant minds who are villainized are these like mad scientist type people like scarecrow developed this technology but he's like using it for evil you know yeah so i think that's like those are two things that in general all comic books have an issue with usually we've talked about different movies where like especially women in stem are demonized or like women in stem adjacent whether they're made to be witches

it's like a false attempt to empower them yeah um and be like see our women are more complicated but then it's like they're just evil they can't be like smart and also caring and right whatever there's and i feel like uh speaking to the mental illness conversation i think that schizophrenia is like kind of disproportionately attacked yeah in movies as seeming like truly like you cannot possibly function in society. Bipolar is also a common thing. I feel like that's kind of invoked more in slasher movies of like they're so two-faced and they can't blah, blah, blah. And to all my bipolar heads out there, we're cool. We're chill.

We're fun to be around we need a manic superhero we right like they need someone that's like i'm gonna go solve crime today and then i think there's a different read of the joker that is just sort of really empathizing with like a misunderstood white guy who descends into violence um even putting the mental illness conversation aside like i like that he is made to be a complicated character by that movie i think there's like a lot of interesting things to be said about that but like ultimately if you're not reading it as an attack on mental illness he's a misunderstood white guy who kills people and that is you know that's not nothing

that's a lone stabber exactly Exactly. I don't know. He was always kind of eccentric. Right, right. But no one, I don't think anyone in this movie calls him a terrorist, but that is what he is. No, he's invoking terror. But because he's a white guy, no one's using that language. They never said terrorizing the city. Usually they use that word.

But they didn't call him specifically a terrorist. I do not think. Because I don't think of terror. I mean, I know that they're pulled from the same root word, but I don't think of someone saying, like, you're terrorizing the city. A terrorist. A terrorist is different, yeah. But do they do that with, like, people of color in these comic books?

I feel like they. Well, I don't know. I think that the villains are almost always white men. So I don't know that they're colored men. At least there's that. At least you're not getting called in to be like terrorists in a Marvel movie. That's like at least. Yay.

We're just not in the Marvel movie. But I think when you do have like a, you know, mental illness conversation aside, a white male terrorist, you know, I think that they go further into justifying his actions and giving a context then you probably would if the villain were a person of color yeah it's the yeah it definitely now that we're talking about it this way and he's just like the outside character that people that dent chooses that dent is convinced by because he's tired of the system that's trump that's. That's like that chaos of like I'd rather pick this unknown than anything else.

That's Trump. Yeah. Harvey Dent drained the swamp. Yeah. And we can talk all day about like Batman just never processed his trauma. He'd rather dress up like a bat than deal with the death of his parents. I don't want to talk about it. Leave me alone. I'm going to go wear my costume.

You're like, all right. I think I identify with him because a lot of my depression, people can't tell when I'm depressed because I just work harder. Oh, I love high functioning. Yeah, high functioning. So it's like I just pour everything into being a robot, basically. So I think that's probably why I like him a lot. Does anyone have any final points about the movie i just want a natasha movie uh oh the ballerina yes well that brings us to i

mean we've already talked quite a bit about this but does this movie pass the bechdel test sort of i mean yeah i guess it would be ramirez talking to Barbara with that two line exchange because she's like, those cops can't be trusted. Go to 250 something street. She's technically talking about her protecting her daughter and son. So you're like, oh, you could kind of see it. But I felt like that did pass. And it was an insane pass because she's being held at gunpoint by a man while it's happening. That's also how Christopher Nolan put it in the movie he's like fine i'll do it he's like i'm a feminist and then the other conversation where women are even just in the

same scene together which hardly happens but rachel says to natasha natasha are you the prima and then bruce interrupts and says prima ballerina for the moscow ballet so they don't even get to talk to each other because bruce wayne interrupts a woman oh yeah so um a great movie fun to watch honestly i still did enjoy it it's a good movie uh i'm glad that i mean it does sort of in context it gives me a little bit of relief to know that christopher nolan got this note eventually to like please stop fridging women as the center of the plot of every single one of your movies um it is nice to see progress you know because in spite of everyone's efforts men are not going to simply disappear so having them be allies to women uh in their work is always

encouraging yes all right let's write it on our nipple scale where we use a scale of zero to five nipples based on its representation and treatment of women i guess i'll give i i mean it's basically a zero, right? It might be a.5. .5 for Natasha. I think I didn't notice how bad it was growing up because we were just fucking used to it. And so it doesn't take away from how much I enjoy it as just a movie, but I'm just like, damn, at least now we have movies where we are fulfilled. We have things that are happening right now. But it really like pales in comparison when you like compare.

Like I was just like there are no I was searching for the women. They're hardly around. They're barely around in that long of a movie. And just like knowing that, yeah, when this movie came out, it was not something that registered for us. You just don't think twice about it. You weren't looking for it. You weren't expecting, like, you wouldn't expect it in a movie of this genre, especially. So, yeah, I'll give it a half a nipple for Natasha being, like, an intellectual and, you know, just cool.

She's just like, we're just governed, dummy. I like it. But other than that, I mean, between all of the fridging, us barely getting to know the Rachel character, not letting us see her do her job, you know, all that stuff. This movie, I would say, is not like outwardly contemptuous of women. It just doesn't care about having them be in the movie. And it doesn't make them...

There are a lot of superhero movies where the women are unlikable and damsel in distress even more. They're just literally there to fuck. Right. So I feel like at least it's not that. I've been saying at least a lot today. It's one of those movies that...

Just sitting here justifying this bullshit it's still a good movie and so we're like but there's this but yeah I'll give my half nipple to Natasha how many nipples does a bat have I wonder anyway not important

George Clooney has two Schumacher Cannon says two I'm going to do a half two same, especially because Rachel was written in for the movie that you can't even make it an adaptation problem. You're just like, come on. And it was written by Jonathan and Christopher Nolan. Yay. Most of those movies are. And I'm just like, we get it. You want to kill your wife. Like, whatever. It's lazy writing. It's a stand-up equivalent of like, my wife's a bitch, but you just create these characters to kill off. Like, okay, maybe go to counseling.

Can't even trust her with my fake death. I would be very, like, if I were Christopher Nolan's wife, I'd be like, do we need to talk? Like, what did I do to you? Anyways, yeah, just kind of like lazy writing and exclusion of women on the whole but I like Natasha have nipple give it to Natasha why not yeah same I'm gonna say same I will say now that like as we're discussing this I realized like when I watched the movie my least favorite part of it was Rachel and I think it's

because I couldn't take anything from canon andachel and i think it's because i couldn't take anything from canon and like apply it to her character like i couldn't justify anything because she was new and i was like who is this bitch and like why is this like this i don't like her character as much as i want to she's kind of like a humorless killjoy also i also think well all inconsistent because she's like she's like i'm on time like i do this stuff but then it's like you know she's like inconsistent wavering between them, and then isn't as strong as you want her. She's just wavering the whole time, like, wakey. And you're like, who is this?

I don't know. And they didn't, because she's not a character in the comic books, you can't just apply that knowledge to her. Right. And I also just remember from the press surrounding this movie, it reminds me of like a sarah jessica parker like how just sarah jessica parker was treated during sex in the city where maggie gyllenhaal was not perceived as attractive enough to be a romantic lead there is a lot i mean if you go back to oh i've got some receipts on it i mean there's a lot of really gendered pointed conversation about how people didn't find her hot enough to be in this movie so it's just uh you know we've we've grown maggie jillian hall's always been hot let's relax right um half nipples across the board uh paula v thank you so much for being here

what would you like to plug i co-produce facial recognition comedy which is on the show. What would you like to plug? I co-produce facial recognition comedy, which is on the second Sunday of every month at West side comedy theater in Santa Monica. And we also have a podcast, um, that's released every Tuesday. And then I also run a show called oversharing comedy in boomtown brewery. And that's bi-weekly.

So every two weeks on Thursdays, um, and it's oversharing comedy on like Instagram. Um, and then should I give him my social? Yes, please. Okay. My socials? Yes, please. Do it.

Okay, my socials are get out a pin. P-A-L-L-A-V-I-G-U-N-A-L-A-N. That's my full name. That's my website, my Instagram, my Facebook, my Twitter. Awesome. Oh, and I also started a dirty science web series on YouTube and Instagram. What's it called? Dirty Science.

But it's just like on my Instagram and then on my YouTube which is youtube.com slash public vegan on comedy I talk about

different science topics that interest me or like I talk about why things are the way they are through a scientific lens but it's also like

for adults so I like swear and talk about sex and stuff hell yeah awesome yes check out all of that stuff

you can check us out on Twitter Instagram Facebook at Bechtelcast you can go to our website bechtelcast.com check out our patreon patreon.com slash bechtel cast five bucks a month you get two extra episodes do it why not there's merch we got t-shirts we got pillows the other items you might want i got this down to a science tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast. And as always, we'll see you next time.

Why so serious? Wow. Bye. Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption

that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

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