The Bechdel Cast - The Fall (2006) with Ali El-Sadany

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Masked Bandits Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Ali go on an epic quest to discuss The Fall (2006). Check out FilmSlop at filmslop.com and on IG at @filmslop, and please support The Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy at https://timep.orgSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Start changing it with the Becdell cast Hey Caitlin Hey Jamie Here's the thing I want to die But Maybe we should do some sort of bartering thing first Well you have to tell me your story first Okay but like make sure you're doing

Some like petty crime for me okay Okay The many ways in which Lee Pace acts completely out of pocket in this movie. He's like, it's too urgent. I have to OD in front of this kid who is addicted to lying and definitely will not leave the room. Lee, Lee. All right, welcome to the Bechtel cast. My name's Jamie. My name is Caitlin. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Yeah. And what pre-tell is that, Jamie? Well, it's a mediometric created by our

our dear friend Alison Bechtel, who originally put the metric in a comic in her iconic comic collection, Dykes to watch out for in the 80s. Lots of versions of this test. Here's the version we use. We require that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of meaningful dialogue. I was a little worried about this. I have to say, Bechal test-wise, I was worried. But we get there. It would have been, it would have been objectively a bad look, 29 countries and it doesn't pass the Bechal Test. That would be pretty incredible. But, spoiler alert, we're fine.

And yeah, we have a sticky little, but yet gigantic movie that we're covering today. Yes. The fall, 2006, ever heard of it? You may not have. And it's such an interesting story. Why? It's basically like this director's megalopolis. Except it's actually watchable. Except when I watch it, I'm like, okay, I basically know what's happening. Right. And we have an incredible guest to discuss with us.

Indeed, he is the editor at Film Slop. It's Ali. Hey, hello. How's it going? Thanks for having me. Well, thank you for joining us and bringing us the fall. yeah truly what a moment I was thinking as well because I know you're a fellow minions head I was thinking as I was watching this I was like okay kind of a love letter to old Hollywood not unlike minions this is actually this is a really good segue because I was thinking about this I have something unlike the Bechdel test called the minion test that I run in my head and this is one of the few movies that passes the test is essentially

If you replace a main character with a minion, will the movie get better or worse? And most of the time, the movie will get better if you replace it with a minion. But this is the one movie. I can just completely say, if you replace a character with a minion, the movie will be worse. So I'm pretty excited to get into that. I think the little girl, if you replace her with a minion, you can't do that. She's better than a minion. No, she's irreplaceable.

You can't replace Roy with a minion. No, because minions can't die. Mm-hmm. Right? And it stakes much lower. Like you can give a minion all the morphine you want. Nothing's going to happen. I mean, they'll probably go to sleep for a while.

I feel like they're not a immune to morphine. They're going to like it. That's true. They're just going to get hooked. Huh. Okay, I love the minion test. I try to think about it. Usually when there's a child actor, if you can replace.

I think because most child actors are pretty replaceable with minions, but. I mean, I don't disagree. You could replace with a poopie situation. Yeah. Likely. I also, I mean, not to get into the plan. out of the movie. The little girl at the center of the movie is basically a mania. She's like attached herself to a kind of terrible person and just kind of her grow.

Does his bidding with whatever he wants. Whoa. Wow. That's why I like this movie, above all. Well yeah, tell us your relationship, your history with this movie. I have a pretty deep history of this movie. I think I came across it randomly. Honestly, don't remember how I came across it. But it's one of the movies that I watched and it really made me unlock why I loved movies. I think honestly before I became a cinephile sorry I just said that out loud and I really don't like the word Cinephile okay brag maybe maybe maybe a better term for Cinephile movie lover but like before I became a movie pervert I think it was one of the first that's better that's just branding Cinefile the movie pervert it's like one of the first ever movies that I saw that I just really unlocked the medium for me maybe

six years ago and then I remember I was having a really stressful day a week out after at work and I started Googling pretty shots from the fall just to de-stress. And then all of a sudden I found myself watching three hours of content from the fall. So I was like, might as well just watch the movie and I continued watching it. And then it just became something really special to me. And whenever I tell people that I love movies, they always ask me, what is your favorite movie? This is one of the top three. And there's a huge issue I have with doing this because there is that movie that came out in 2022 called Fall, which is just a terrible movie about

rock climbers I think I don't get the premise they're like trying to climb a thing but everyone's like oh you love that movie and then I have to end up in this hole no not that one it's the one from 2006 and then I sound like a pretentious juice bag which I really don't like doing but well there's also that show called the fall yeah uh Jamie what is his name oh I was like what the 50 Shades of Gray guy oh Jamie Dornan yeah right he's in that yeah I don't know I I looked at the poster and I was like I put my mom I would have something to say about this show. It just looks like a show for Jill, which generally means that it's none of my business.

Sure. But yeah, every time I tell people I like the fall, I always have to coffee out with actually that one. And I feel like if you're going to name your movie, something related to the fall, it has to be a good movie. Because then I walk out embarrassed feeling like someone thinks that I'm a huge fan of the rock climbing movie, which rock climbing is a concept is just something I don't condone or support or believe in. Heavy is the crown that lies on the letterbox user. You know, it is, it's, it's, it's a tough, it's a tough world out there. Yeah, I, I feel like this movie is not, well, and also if you're a fan of this movie,

I feel like it's inherently you have to explain it because it was not available to watch for so long. Mm-hmm. Until, what, the last couple years. Yeah, it wasn't on streaming. It wasn't even rentable digitally. Yeah, how did you watch it six years ago? Did you have to go through back channels? I had to find some redacted channels of sorts.

Nice. But then they did the re-release in theaters, which I remember that day because everybody was posting on their Instagram stories and they got to see the Northern Lights. And I was really bummed about it because I wanted to see the Northern Lights. All my friends in New York or like wherever else were posting it. And then I remember I saw the fall after. I was just like, you know what? You can have your Northern Rides.

I got to see one of the most beautiful things in the world to put to screen. And it made me really happy. So I think I'm still bummed about not seeing. the Northern Lights, but, you know. Yeah, but the Northern Lights, they happen more, but you'd wait, like, you have 18 years to see this in a theater. Yep. The Northern Lights, I'll be back.

I think so. Yeah. I would take this over. I remember the first time I watched it, I wrote on a piece of paper that I would sacrifice my firstborn to be able to see it in theaters. Because I think it's, it's like a pretty good. You don't have to know. Well, I mean, I did see it in theater, so I do have to sacrifice my first born eventually.

So retroactively. Oh. Like whenever I have them, I'm going to have to get rid of them, which isn't great. Wow. That really does change the dynamic of sacrificing your first born, doesn't it? It's not ideal. I mean, it's just like, they have to be born and I have to sacrifice them. I originally was like, I don't know if I want kids, but I think I have to have a child now,

so I could sacrifice it. So you have to sacrifice it to the fall gods. The powers that be. Jamie, what's your history with this movie? My history with this movie, I had not seen it, but I, have a history of being aware of it, which is normally I wouldn't even mention, but it does feel relevant here because I'm a Leapace head because I, my brother and I watched pushing daisies when it first, when it was airing. We loved, loved, loved pushing daisies. And I was like,

who is this, who is this handsivest man in the world that I'm looking at? And to this day, I think he is, he's got to be cracking the top ten, like, of handsomest men I've ever seen. And, yeah, so I was obsessed with Lee Pace and was like, what else has he been in? And at that point, the answer was not much. But this movie had come out the year before. And I remember being like, oh, I want to see that. And then because of all these reasons I now understand, it just never really happened. Because it turns out it, like, couldn't really have happened unless I got, unless I, unless I,

pirated it, which I am not ethically opposed to, but I just kind of forgot that it existed. So it just took a really long time for me to get around to watching it. And it's so, there's so much going on. There's so much. It's weird because it's so beautiful and it's not, it wouldn't normally be my kind of movie, but you can just feel, I don't know, it's like hard to explain, but like you can just feel the passion and sincerity. Like it's impossible not to get on board with this movie. movie. It's so beautiful, especially learning that there is barely any CGI. It's the kind of movie where, I don't know, there's so many movies we've covered on the show that learning about the backstory makes you like it way less. And this is the opposite. Like I watched it the first time and it was like,

whoa, that was really impressive. That was really cool. It reminded me of a George Miller movie that no one saw a couple years ago, 3,000 years of longing. I saw it, brag. I think we were to the only Wait, Ali, did you see? I watch, I have a, I have a condition where I have to watch every single movie that shows up in theaters. So, we're there. So you were there. You're seated. I was there.

It was, if you haven't seen it, I don't even know if I would recommend it, but it was just like, I was the only person sitting in the theater and was like, I don't know, this feels like a movie where it's both gigantic and it feels like a secret at the same time. So anyways, it reminded me a lot of that. And I'm so glad I finally saw it. You can see how. influential this movie is in spite of the fact that probably statistically you haven't seen it. Yeah. What was your history with this, Caitlin? Kind of similar.

I had not seen it before prepping for this episode, but I knew of it. And I don't remember exactly when it came onto my radar. But I've known about it for a while. I knew what the poster looked like. And I knew that friends of mine who had seen it generally loved it. and thought it was beautiful and like a feat of filmmaking. It's got like a 500 on letterboxed. Yeah.

But I didn't really know anything else about it, but I was eager to watch it for this episode. It is so visually impressive, especially because I love anything practical. Practical sets, practical effects. This movie is that all the way down. Yeah, we'll talk more about the production of it.

But I also generally like a kind of like story within a story. It reminded me kind of of Princess Bride in the sense that it's an adult relaying a story to a child. It reminded me a bit of a little princess where that's not quite as big of a component of that movie as far as like a person relaying a story. And then we flash to images from that story. but the visuals that you do see when we flash to the story and a little princess feel kind of similar to some of what we see in the fall. So it was just, it felt kind of like familiar, even though I had

never seen it before. And, and I was really charmed. Yeah, by the movie. How many epic films? Because this is, and I don't mean that in the cringe sense. I mean, truly, this is epic, not epic, random sauce, epic. just to clarify. Right. But how many epic movies can say that they were shot immediately after a Mountain Dew commercial? I just loved learning about the background for this movie. It's so, there's so much like 5D chess being played. Just, ugh, the fact that I want to see the Mountain Dew commercial.

Why the hell were they filming such an expensive Mountain Dew commercial? We used to, you know, we used to make movies for, out and do, I guess. Because the director, Tarsim, had mostly a history of directing commercials and I think some music videos. He had also directed The Cell, which I've seen, but only once, and it was long ago, and I don't really remember it. And then he would go on to direct Mirror Mirror, the 2012 Snow White adaptation.

He also went on to direct a movie called Immortals, but not that one. Again, another not that one kind of movie. Poor tourism. Like, yeah, people just keep using his titles. Although the fall, you know, kind of asking for it. No offense. I mean, it is a generic word. Anyone's movie could be this.

I also think there might be a famous book called The Fall. Anyways. Also, I love, I just love a mononymous director. You could already, if someone's mononymous, you're like, okay, we're dealing with a level of confidence that I am not going to find relatable. And that's exciting. Right. Yeah. He is also sometimes referred to as his full name, Tarsem Singh, but at least in this movie, he's credited as Tarsem. But yeah, I'm so excited to talk about it. Let's take a quick break. And then we'll come back for the recap.

Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up y'all? It's your girl, Sam J.

And we're the host of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together and I-heart women's sports. Because let's be real. Women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii. My first thought is like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.

Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Naomi Osaka showing out, she beat. Sabalinka. Shout out to you, Naomi. You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened. We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.

Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports. On the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. You know us or rather you know them. Tony and Candice, Nina and Lance,

Spike and yes, the chicken. We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years, but today we're showing up as ourselves to tell you about Podlandia AEO rewatch, our brand new podcast. Each week, we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the backstories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love, and opening up about our creative process. How did any of this get made?

Why do we think that was a good idea? We're ready to talk about it. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life, guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Chryssel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song, a melody. I thought he was going to write.

I thought you're all going to write a song for you. I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia. Ayo, rewatch on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Hayes Davenport. And Sean Clements. We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook. Every episode we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.

The show is famously super accessible so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on. We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller. The definition of what is a movie has kind of changed anywhere too, right? What do you think it is now? It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology. Danny McBride. Oh, that's fantastic. And you make it on, you make your own.

That's great. I call him Terro Reed. It's a good name. They're all named after cast members of American Pie. Yeah. I call, I don't, I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Leachie Sobieski. Yeah. I don't think she was an American Pie, but I still like that.

Haven't looked it up. She was prominent around the same time. Yeah. Then Mary Steenbergin. Why are you guys talking to me? I'm worried. I'm worried. Why are you talking so down to me?

me that you think I don't understand your little play game. I just really, I get it. I'm trying to set you up for success here. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. First, we'll place a content warning at the top for attempted suicide and suicidality. Also, this movie is hard to. to recap and there's a lot that happens. So I'm going to be leaving out some details, but I'll do my very

best. Yeah, feel free to jump in if they're relevant to you personally. Okay, so we open on dramatic black and white slow-mo images and music of a train stopped on the tracks on a bridge. and it seems as though some people possibly and also a horse has fallen off the bridge into the water below. We will get more insight on that later. But is this perhaps the titular fall? Maybe. Yes. But also there are other falls.

One could make the argument. There are other falls throughout the movie that could be the fall. It's true. It depends on who you are. But I guess I was like, oh, well, there's the fall. I can relax. Sure. We cut to a hospital in Los Angeles, ever heard of it.

It's the 1920s. We meet a five-year-old girl named Alexandria, played by Katinka Untaru, who is there because she has broken her arm, because she also had a the fall off screen in the backstory. And, Ali, you referenced this earlier, but great child performance. Maybe one of the best. Like, I don't think there is a better child performance. I'm going to go on record and say that. It's really up there.

It's so good. And I think it's because she's, like, kind of not acting. I mean, she is, but, like, a lot of her dialogue was improvised or, like, just the director kind of created scenarios where what was happening in the scene was, like, kind of happening in real life. So she was just like responding to Lee Pace telling her things. And then she was just, yeah, like kind of reacting naturally. They're like shooting through like holes in the in like a sheet so that it doesn't feel too much like.

I just, I was so impressed by how he shot that because you're because it does feel like how it feels to have a conversation with a kid. Totally. And the fact that she learned English to do this movie basically. And there's scenes where. I read that she had to, like, mostly talk with Lee Pace in English because when she was talking to Tarsem, she started talking in English that had a slight Indian accent, which you can't hear in a couple of scenes, too. It's just like, it's so fun. It's so cool. That's awesome.

So collaborative. Yeah. I do have, I watched the two documentaries that are about this movie. They're each pretty short. They're both, like, 28 minutes long. One is called Wonderlust and one is called nostalgia. And although Tarsem's direction is very impressive and the movie he made is very impressive. There are moments that he doesn't come off looking great in the way that he is treating,

particularly Katinka in different moments. Oh, wow. Sometimes he is compassionate and patient. Other times, not so much. I can talk more about that later. But, yeah, especially considering she was like six years old. when they were shooting this. I literally learned an entire language to do the movie.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's the LeBron James of Child Acting. I feel like you're not patient with her. Kank a donut. In any case, we meet Alexandria. She's in this hospital because she has broken her arm and is in this big cast. She tries to drop a note from the window of the hospital down to her pal, nurse Evelyn.

played by Justine Waddell, but the paper flutters down into the room of a man named Roy, played by Lee Pace. Alexandria and Roy kind of befriend each other after she goes into his room to retrieve the note. And he starts to tell her the story of Alexander the Great, and we cut to the tale that he's telling, which Alexandria, periodically interrupts and questions the various details and logic of the story, which is something that will happen throughout the rest of the movie. And then Roy tells her to come back the following day so that he can tell her a different story.

In the meantime, we learn that Roy has sustained an injury that has left him paralyzed from the waist down, I believe. The details are a little foggy around this at this point, but it seems like he is a stunt man and fell during a stunt that went wrong. It becomes clear that it's that the images that we saw at the beginning of the movie with like the train. That was the stunt. Like he had tried to jump from the train onto a horse below and things went terribly wrong.

We piece that information together. We also learn that he is very depressed and it is possibly about a woman. And then we'll get more insight on that later as well. Alexandria comes back the next day, and Roy starts telling her a story about five men, and we cut to their story on screen. The men are Oda Benga, a former enslaved man, Luigi, an expert in explosives, a man from India whose character's name is the Indian. There's also famous naturalist Charles Darwin and his monkey friend Wallace.

Oda Benga also a real person. It's so weird how they're doing their like, yeah, the Avengers of History, question mark, the Avengers of Lee Pace's morphine brain. Right. And we can talk more about Oda Benga later. I will say of everybody, Charles. Darwin maybe is the most dressed person in the world in this movie. Just the things that he has on are unreal. The big red, like, fur coat, that's kind of iconic. I think there's a lot of hyperbole that I'm

going to speak in, but genuinely, Lee Pace might be the best looking a man has ever looked, and Charles Darwin might be the best dressed a man has ever been in this movie. And just a lot of great. Mm-hmm. Lee Pace is just, he's something else. I just love to see him. Especially as the masked bandit, when he takes his mask off and he's wearing this like, he has like smoky eyes and like this like modern haircut, you're just like, oh. Yep. It's just hot. That's the guy. This is a complete tangent, but there's a movie that came out with Leapace recently, the running man with Glenn Powell. And I hated it so much for one reason, which is they cast Leapace, but they made him wear a mask for most. of the movie. It's like, why are you going to put a man this beautiful if I'm not even going to be able to look into his eyes? Don't waste his time. There are certain actors that I should be masked, Ryan Reynolds, and there are certain masks that there are certain actors who you cannot, under any

circumstances mask, Leapace. What does, what does his character look like in the MCU? I forget if he's got like a like heavy makeup on like prosthetics or if we actually see lepase's face yeah is he not in the MCU you're asking the wrong guy oh yeah he is i'm googling him right now he's blue he's blue right i thought he's blue why would you make him blue i don't know wow avatar avatar your influence his felt all this to say there are tasteful ways to mask lepace and this movie does it tastefully It enhances the Leapace. Right, because the final character is the masked bandit who isn't played by Leapace at first, but then it becomes Leepace. We'll get there.

But the thing with all of these men who we've just met is that they hate a man named Governor Odeus, and they have all sworn to kill him because of various injustices that Odeus has committed against them. But right now, they are stranded on an island until they escape the island via an elephant that's carrying the masked bandit because he can't swim. And then the others are swimming alongside the elephant. And they end up in some remote desert place where they encounter a man who kind of like magically comes out of a tree. This is the mystic who tells them that he's been sent by his mystic cult to help them defeat Governor Odeus. So they all head to a fort where Governor Odeus is holding the masked bandit's twin brother, the

Blue Bandit, and they launch an attack against Odeus's soldiers, but it's too late. Odeus had already killed the Blue Bandit. And then the story that Roy is telling is interrupted, because we, periodically cut back to Alexandria and Roy. Sometimes it's because she's interjecting. Sometimes it's because someone else interrupts them. Oh, I love her interjections are so, it just is so authentically kidlike where she's like, I just, yeah, she's, she's incredible.

She reminds me of my neighbors because they're just letting her be a kid. Totally. Yeah, she'll be like, wait a minute, didn't you say this? your story's inconsistent or she'll like make an assumption that Roy then incorporates into the rest of the story, stuff like that. So the story resumes the masked bandit who is revealed to be played by Lee Pace, although again, I'm pretty sure it was a different actor when we initially saw him. I think it's the same actor who plays Alexandria's father who we meet via a photograph but he had passed away some time ago.

But anyway, the masked bandit swears to avenge his brother, but the men aren't sure where to find their sworn enemy odious. So the mystic and his tribe do some sort of ritual that gives them directions via a tattoo map that appears on the body of the mystic. And the men follow the map. and find Odeus's carriage crossing the desert, which is pulled by a bunch of enslaved people. But before this story continues, Roy stops and asks Alexandria to go to the pharmacy or like the dispensary at the hospital and get him some morphine pills to help him sleep so that he can more

effectively finish the story. So she sneaks into the dispensary, procured. a bottle, but only gives him three pills and then throws the rest away due to a misunderstanding. That I think was like, it wasn't that like an actual misunderstanding by the child actor? And then they changed it. That's so sweet. Yeah. So Roy spells out morphine, but his E at the end looks like a three. So she thinks he only wanted three pills.

And it morphin three. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. Anyone could have made this mistake. This is me at work whenever someone gives me directions. That's how my brain works. It's all you tell me three. Well, you wrote three.

So it's kind of on you. I see no difference with that. I'm with her. Yeah, yeah, totally. So she brings him the three pills. And Roy is disappointed because he wanted the whole bottle for reasons that will soon become more clear. So back to the story. The men free the enslaved people and stop Odeus's carriage.

But Odeus turns out not. to be inside. Instead, it's a woman who he has captured to be his bride. The masked bandit claims this woman as his future wife. I know, which is pretty rich given that he just, it was like, I'm anti-slavery, except for this woman who will marry me or else. Yes. Yeah. And this woman turns out to look a lot like Nurse Evelyn, who we've met before, because the characters in this story look like slash are inspired by slash are the same actors who play other characters in the hospital setting which I I just love how they approach like how the I don't know I've never seen anything like this because it must have been so hard to do is like that we're

seeing a combination of what Roy is talking about but we're also seeing ideas that could have only come from Alexandria and in how she's like populating this world or even just misunderstandings around Indian means two different things to each of them and that like affects the entire story. It's just, I've never seen anything like it. It's really cool. It's very like Wizard of Ozian in the sense that all the characters, Scarecrow, Tin Man, the Lion, the Wicked Witch, they're played by actors who also play the characters that Dorothy knows in real life, like around her farm and town and stuff like that. And she's mapping the people

that she knows onto the characters in her dream. And Alexandria is doing the same thing with the people she knows and mapping them onto the characters in Roy's story. Yeah. I was telling Caitlin about this, but this is like kind of a literalization of how I relate to movies and why I love film. It's also like essentially why I started film slop. And that a lot of a film criticism to me is here's why this shot is beautiful. Here's why this is stunning. But for me, it's always been about where you see yourself in the context of a movie.

And I kind of just wanted a space to engage with that. I think this is the first movie that was like, whoa, you can actually literally see people insert themselves into stories and how they understand their own world through that. And that's, I do think it's magical. I think this movie has a lot of flaws that I'm excited to unpack with you. I do think if you love something, the best way to love it is to see it for its flaws and to help it grow.

But in like the understanding of where you see yourself within the context of a story, I don't think anything does it better than this movie. And that is truly like how I've learned to love and grow with movies. It's so cool. It really is. I just, whenever a movie can pull the magic trick of like showing you like literalizing how people think, even if they're like thinking in a direction that does not make linear sense, it's just like it's the coolest thing in the world. And it happens a million times in this movie to the point where you're like, oh, right, if this was just like a linear story, that wouldn't have happened. But it made sense when you, I don't know. I don't know how you do that and shoot across 29 countries over four years.

And at some point, you're like, I'm sure that there are just mistakes in there that it's like, well, you can't fly a lepe's everywhere. It's also like, I think the story evolves as the characters evolve their thinking, like as the relationship becomes clearer, the characters in the stories, become clearer the people that the child inserts Alexandria. She's seeing different people that she grows relationships to. And things change. It doesn't make sense in the context of the story. But you realize at some point the story really isn't the point you're there to hang out inside both of their brains and see how they think. They need each other.

Yeah. That's sweet. It's awesome. Yeah. Okay. So then we meet Alexandria's mom and sister who come to visit her in the hospital. they are all immigrants from Romania, I believe. And we learned that Alexandria broke her arm when she fell while picking fruit in an orange grove.

Keep in mind that she is five years old. And we're like, right, this is taking place before the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, which significantly regulated child labor in the U.S. But as this is taking place in the 1920s, there were not really, child labor laws at this time. Then we see Alexandria observing a woman crying in a car outside the hospital, as well as a man who is a famous movie star. This is Sinclair.

And we piece together that this woman was Roy's former beloved, but that she left him for Sinclair. And this is why Roy is deeply depressed. depressed and perhaps suicidal. And then Roy has Alexandria steal more morphine pills from his neighbor's cabinet, like the guy, a few hospital beds over. Great guy. Yeah, he's really awesome.

Roy resumes his story. The masked bandit takes the woman who he has captured, whose name is also Evelyn. takes her with him and they fall in love as the bandit and the other men plan their attack on odious's palace. But then Evelyn learns that they intend to kill her fiancé odious. So the masked bandit has to kill her for some reason. So he shoots her, but the locket she's wearing stops the bullet and she survives. And it seems like it's because Alexandria says, no, she can't die. So Roy is like, okay, I guess, well, I have to make sure she lives.

So it's like watching someone write a Marvel movie in real time. No, no, no, no, no, we got to bring it back. Yeah, this action figure is important. I think it's so special that the love interest takes the form of the nurse because you're seeing it through a kid's eyes. So I teach third grade sometimes on Sundays. And the ultimate way I can tell that they like me is if some of them have older sisters, they'll be like, you should marry my sister.

And I'll be like, no, but I appreciate that. I've like ingratiated myself, I think it's for like Alexandria, she sees the nurse and she sees Leipace's the two adults that she likes so naturally in child logic. They need to be together. And I think it's really special that she sees the love interest as the nurse rather than Leepace's ex who in his insullish fantasy

of that story. It plays out, yeah. I love, and I love the character. The nurse, like her relationship with the nurse is so sweet and nurturing. And yeah, I really like that. Because that's like for like the first major detail we were like, oh, this is not just his, we're not just seeing his version of events. So then the bandit opens the locket that he had just shot with a bullet and reads the inscription inside.

And all of this is taken as a sign that the bandit and Evelyn are destined to be together. So they go to get married, but a priest character, not unlike the priest who's at the hospital. Because this hospital is also sort of like a mission, because there's like nuns there and a priest and the nuns are also the nurses or something. I wasn't really sure exactly. Yeah. I mean, this has got a lot of colonial energy about it. Right. So anyway, the priest who is supposed to marry these characters betrays the bandit and sells him out to odious.

So the bandit and his friends are once again banished to the desert and like tied up. And things seem pretty hopeless. There's no one left to save them until a new masked bandit appears. A little one played by Alexandria. And so she unties the men from their restraints. But before the story continues, Roy has taken a full bottle of the morphine pills, intending to die by suicide. And he tells Alexandria to leave when he, quote, quote, falls asleep.

Now, Roy, that's the most diabolical thing you could possibly. Ew. Fucked up. Roy. Not great. Not great. Not great. He's like, he knows, like, he's like, so I can definitely trust this six-year-old to do what I say, even though that's never once happened.

She's like a minion. It's truly, yes, he's kind of grueing out there. That is, I don't even think grew would have done that. Gru would not have done that to Kevin. I don't think so. Oh, no, wait, that's such a, that's just, my stomach just dropped considering that. That's really sad. Oh, boy.

God. No, Gru, you've got so much to live for, dude. And despicable me 12 And when they release that version of old grue Feeling suicidal Old grue, God Gru euthanasia plot Oh my God

Gruthanasia Gruthanasia Something to consider So they did consider Something to think about Anyway Sorry Caitlin I feel like you're doing such a good job

Of telling this like Amazing story It's like this is like impossible to summarize By the way I'm watching a master at work right now And Jamie and I'm doing and I were going about Ruth and Asia. No, it's the little interjections like this that make the recap so special.

No, you worked very hard on this. We'll stop talking. No, it's okay. Okay, so Roy loses consciousness after taking the pills. Alexandria tries to wake him up. She thinks that he has died and is devastated. But twist, he's alive. He wakes up and discovers that the most. morphine was actually placebo pills that the doctors had been giving his neighbor guy.

And I wasn't sure if it was implied that he was a hypochondriac or that he was maybe an addict who was sort of like drug-seeking. I'm not sure what exactly was going on there. I don't know. Yeah. Either way, they're giving him placebos. I sort of resigned myself to day a sex placebo pill. Right.

He just can't die. Much like the vignants. Exactly. So sometimes Roy's grew, sometimes he is a minion. Life is complicated. Right. There are relationships where you're the minion and relationships where you grew in this life. And the most beautiful ones are when you're both.

That's true. And that's the relationship you have with yourself. Again, it really makes you think, I am my own minion. I need that on a shirt. Whoa. Okay. So Roy is furious. because he was expecting to die and he didn't.

So he lashes out. Alexandria runs off. She's kind of frightened. That night, she sneaks back into the dispensary to try to retrieve more pills for Roy, thinking that he needs them to sleep. But she slips and falls, another, the fall. She the falls. Yes.

And as she's, she has fallen and injured herself, it seems like she's, a head injury. We see flashes from the story that Roy has been telling. We see flashes from Alexandria's backstory. And then this like surreal stop animation sequence. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. It's so good. And then eventually Alexandria wakes up and Roy is there and she begs him to tell her the rest of the story. But he is despondent and he also feels responsible for Alexandria's The Fall. Well, I can tell you why he feels that way. Yes, because he is.

But he tearfully resumes the story where the masked bandit and friends spot Evelyn with Odeus, who I think this is the first time we are seeing Odeus on screen, and he is the same guy as Sinclair, that famous movie star. So they plan their attack on. odious but things go awry and one by one the members of the group die starting with wallace the monkey then darwin luigi otabenga the mystic and the indian they're either killed by odious's army or they sacrifice themselves until the only ones left are the masked bandit and the little masked Bandit, played by Alexandria.

I don't know what this says about me, but I think I'm not much of a movie crier, but like the only time I teared up watching this movie, which is really special. Let me is when the monkey dies. Oh my God. I mean, that is very moving. It was like a hard watch. Yeah, a hard agree. That monkey was acting his

ass off. Yeah. Could not replace him with a minion either. No. No, minas can't emote like that. Well, I think they can. Well, they can. They can. It depends. It depends. which minion you're using. I think there's a, there's a spectrum. James made me cry. James made me cry.

James did. Ed's the one who got me. Oh my God. And you gotta love Ed. It's so wild that they created three new amazing minions. I didn't think they could do it. Oh, I forgot what, so this is the minions and monsters minions. Yes. Yes. The new trifecta. I loved Dick. Dick. Dick. Dick. That's, and you might be alone there. I don't remember who Dick is. My favorite moment in Minions and Monsters was like when the minions are passing the

Christoph Walt's producer character and he and Dick have a moment where he goes, Dick, Max, and it made me laugh so much. I laughed for the rest of the movie. That should have happened in the fall. It should have.

I mean, it kind of happens in the fall. There's like a lot of producers and moments. It's true. It's true. Sort of. Right. It's true. There's no Dick the minion, I guess. Or I bet again, we're like, is Roy Dick the Minion sometimes? Is Alexander a Dick the Minion most of the time? It's also true. It's also true. Walt the neighbor, maybe is Dick the minion. He was, he actually behaves like Dick the Minion. Yes, he does. He's got the, yeah. Wow. What,

what a powerful character. We see him everywhere. I think we just both have broken brains and that's okay. Okay. So, um, so most of the characters have died. And then, Then Alexandria, both in the story that Roy is telling and in real life in the hospital, she is sobbing and asking, like, why are you killing everyone? Why is this how the story is going? And it's because Roy is so depressed. And then odious appears and attacks the bandit who falls in the pool and he's drowning. he's completely given up, again, kind of the way that Roy has.

He doesn't even try to fight back. And Alexandria, again, like, begs Roy to let the bandit live. She's also kind of like projecting her father onto the bandit and like everyone is crying. And so Roy decides to let the bandit live in the story. And the character starts fighting back and he punches odious, who accidentally impales him. himself on a sword and dies. Though the line where he says,

I'm not feeling very well. It's so funny because he's got a sword through his chest. We've all been there. Tis but a scratch. And then the story ends triumphantly for the bandit and the little bandit. We cut back to Alexandria, Roy, and other patients in the hospital, watching a film with some characters that kind of resemble characters from Roy's story. And I think it's implied that the film that they're watching is the one that Roy was working on when he was injured.

And we see his stunt, kind of. It got basically cut for time. Yeah, it seems like it. Tough business. And then we cut to Alexandria and her family. working in the Orange Grove after Alexandria has fully recovered. And her voiceover says that she misses Roy, that he has gone back to work as a stuntman, and that she has seen him in a film, and that she like kind of watched it over and over again

to make sure that it was him. And then the movie that we are watching ends with a montage of impressive stunts from silent films, including a lot of people falling. The end. I mean, makes you think. Makes you think. Kind of reminded me of the end of Babylon. I'm like, this movie is so important.

Just a little bit. Just a little bit. And also the beginning of mini's and monsters. Okay. So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break. And we'll come back to discuss. Behind every night spent making the kids lunches,

there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.com.com for details and to check availability.

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We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stillard. The definition of what is a movie has kind of changed anywhere too, right? What do you think it is now? It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of, uh, technology. Danny McBride. He loves Nova. Oh, that's fantastic. And you make it on, you make your own. That's great. I call him Terro Reed.

It's a good name. They're all named after cast members of American Pie. Yeah. I call, I don't, I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Leachie Sobieski. Yeah. I don't think she was an American Pie, but I just like that. Haven't looked it up. She was prominent around the same time. Yeah. Then Mary Steenbergin.

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Yeah, I mean, I think this is the first time I've actually watched this through a Beckdell-Cast-E feminist lens. I think every time I was kind of swept in. by the magic of cinema. This is like maybe round four or five for me watching it. So I can be a little bit more critical and I am very excited to hear your thoughts because I think this movie is rather lacking in some of the feminist readings. There is one lens that I think I have crafted, I'm not sure if it's accurate or it's me inserting

something trying to make an excuse for something that I love dearly. But I do think that Roy's original rendition of the story is kind of an insult fantasy where he's this guy who has been rejected and now he's just kind of lashing out. He is using vengeance as this shield and doesn't know how to accept being rejected, being, he is kind of a loser, unfortunately. But I think with Alexandria, she has inserted herself into this male-dominated story and with the inclusion of a child-slash-female voice,

there's like a break from this toxic masculinity that dominates story. And it is more of like an invitation to add more diverse voices into the stories we tell. So I think that's my one way of like, here's how I can make this a little bit more tasteful to myself. I like it. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with you, especially with the Alexandria stuff where I, the performance is so great. And I also was as I was like looking into the extensive backstory for this movie, that this movie was not written for a child. of a specific gender.

And I feel like you can really feel that in the story. And it made me actually think and challenge a little more how young girls are written specifically because children are like genderless, like gender is a construct. Children are genderless weirdos. They just like, they're flopping around. It's fun.

Being a kid is fun. And like I like that because Katinka was encouraged to, and I'm very curious to hear more about documentary, Caitlin. But it seems that Ketinko was encouraged to just act like a kid and not be acting out this like coming of age young girl plot that I love. But like you can feel how free it is. And that because it's just a kid being a kid, it is kind of like inherently like a genderless

performance because that's how kids are. And I just, I loved that she seemed free to behave. think like a kid in the way that the story rolls out because she's still she's still so young that I think the ways in which gender will shape her life are maybe not quite clear to her yet yeah which is cool I'm thinking of the moment where the Evelyn character enters the story as the woman who the masked bandit has kidnapped and sort of like made into his bride to be. And, but they're also kind of like falling in love, whatever.

And Alexandria is like, make them kiss, make them kiss. And I was thinking about how a lot of like gender socialization encourages little girls to latch on to romance. And it also conditions little boys to think that that's gross. Because going back to, for example, the princess bride, there are parts in that story when, you know, the grandfather who's relaying the story of the Princess Bride to the little Fred Savage character. And he's like, ooh, gross, they're kissing. Can't you skip over the kissing parts? Because he has been socialized to find that stuff yucky. And that's, and romances for

girls, that kind of thing. So I was thinking about that. But Alexandria also says that she has never seen a movie before. So I'm just like, it's not like she was like influenced by, at least films, maybe by books or other stories, she might have received some sort of conditioning. But it could also just be that she wants to see these two characters kiss, and that's just coming from her without any kind of like external influence. I don't know exactly what to make of that, but I found that interesting. I liked it.

It just felt more like, and I'm like, who knows how scripted or unscripted that was. but like it just feels like a thing that a curious kid says right because they've heard of kissing and it looks fun like yeah I don't know I totally agree because I don't know it's so hard to get a performance like this it's so singular so it's not like this could just be how kids perform not everyone is Katinka and Taro but it is so it's such a cool experiment kind of but also it's sounds can we could we talk about that really quick because I just I'm it's like in the back of my head I'm very curious about how she was treated because I we've talked a lot on the show about how just in general like I have very mixed feelings on I mean there's just still not enough

protections in place for kid actors and the whole like whatever the whole classic mentality is don't work with kids or animals when I feel like the question should be like well maybe that's because there's not proper protections in place for kids and animals. And that's why it tends to not go well. Anyways. Yeah. So the documentaries that I watched, Wonderlust and Nistalgia,

they're pretty similar. They both are just behind the scenes footage. So there's no like interviews or anything. There's no like talking heads describing, oh, this was my vision for this scene or anything like that. It's just a kind of a series of, of behind-the-scenes shots that are strung together. What we gather from it is that it seems like this movie was difficult to shoot

because there are all these tough locations. There's harsh weather. There's a lot of practical effects and stunts and things like that. So we see bits of that. There's a part with an elephant that's like on a boat and like being shipped to this island. And it just made me feel so bad for the elephant. I don't know how many protections were put in place in the production for this elephant, but I was just like, oh, man, this poor elephant is like how I was feeling as I was watching it.

In addition to that, you get insight into how Tarsem is as a director for, like, the cast in general, but also particularly how he directed young Katinka. So, as I said before, sometimes he seems patient. and calm and pleasant to work with toward her. And then other times he is just cruel and berating her. There's a moment where she's crying, and it seems it's because something isn't going quite right on the set or I don't know exactly the context,

but she's crying. Not her character is crying, but it's clear that the actor is crying because she's frustrated or her feelings have been hurt or something like that. And Harsim says something like, don't do that crap here, do it over there in front of the camera. God. Stuff like that. And he's yelling.

There's another scene where he has her do 19 takes of something, stuff like that. So again, he doesn't come off great in these documentaries. And I wonder how, I mean, I genuinely don't know the answer to this. like how child, I mean, it's weird that this story touches on child labor and seems to come down anti, and then this is how the child star of the movie is treated. But how those laws differ from country to country, I actually don't know. But in the U.S., there's definitely still a lot. I mean, so much of child labor laws in entertainment have, and this isn't exclusive,

but like has a lot to do with like what the parents are willing to tolerate on behalf of the child, not necessarily what the child themselves wants or needs, which is how you get into all these horrific stage parent things. That's why like Coogan laws exist to protect their money, but I don't know that it necessarily protects them. And then you hear stories about child actors that had parents that were doing their best and were very careful and the child is still harmed or abused behind the scenes. and that's, ugh, I don't know what the solution to that is. Like, it's because it's like you can be a great director and that doesn't mean that you should be directing children. And like, how do you make that distinction?

And I don't know. Right. It's, yeah, it was disheartening to see footage of Tarsim's behavior toward Katinka in those two documentaries. The other notable thing about what I learned. from wanderlust and nostalgia was that Tarsem had Lee Pace pretend to not be able to walk during the whole shoot to the point where Katinka and most of the crew thought he was actually disabled.

And Tarcum did this to, I guess, like, help with the authenticity, particularly for Katinka's reactions to things and her behavior where she was like really careful around Lee Pace's legs if she was like sitting in bed with him or something like that. And then like I think maybe on the last day of shooting, they reveal to her that he actually can walk. So there's a discussion to be had around ableism here. And also psychological torture. Yes. Of a child. Right. Because it's like it's so many layers. It's an able-bodied, actor playing a disabled character. It is an able-bodied actor pretending to be disabled,

not only for the sake of the story that unfolds on screen, but also for the like behind the scenes. And then there's the like lying to a child in order to elicit a more authentic reaction and stuff like that. It's also the gravity of what you're kind of lying to. a child about where this is a child who is learning English is developing a really close relationship with this actor who I think on set is very caring and you come to learn to love him in your own way and you just like have this understanding that the person you care about is hurt it is very devastating to be a kid and to have to think about it in that context for sure yeah and I don't I mean Lee pays very much obviously an adult during this movie but that that I feel like

does sort of lay firmly with tarcum especially because, I don't know, like, yeah, this was like very early until he Pace's career. Like, you're, whatever. I, and, and also with her parents, like, your parents have to be involved in this high level deception if you're that young. Like, they have to, it's not like, you know, because it's a non-starter if her parents were like, no, that's fucked up. Like on all of these different levels, we're going to tell her, like, then there's no point

in doing it. So it's like there's sort of a multiple levels of people that are okay with a deceitful and ablest setup that is required for this to happen. And again, I think it's ableist in the ways that like they're treating. I mean, the story treats. I don't know. I mean, not that the story is inherently, the casting is somewhat ablest, right? But like the story itself, like, I understand. that he wanted an able-bodied actor

to be able to play the other character. Right. But surely, you know, we have a lot of great writers on this movie. There's an interesting way to subvert that in a way that doesn't make it necessary for this to happen in the first place. But writers like Dan Gilroy, man, some of our strongest Nepo soldiers are the Gilroy's.

Like, they're so cool. Dan Gilroy, he's the nightcrawls. Gilroy, right? Yes, I believe so. Good Gilroy, strong Gilroy. And then Tony Gilroy's Mr. Andor. Yeah. And then there's John Gilroy who I think edits like both of their movies. Oh. Yeah. Good for him. Gilroy Nation. Yeah. I guess getting back to the characters, like, getting back to the character, I think that Alexandria is a really interesting and layered character and now talking about how, how the actress was treated on set, it is interacting directly with Alexandria's story in a way that probably was not intentional, where, you know, she was injured working. That is like why she's in this hospital in the first

place. She was injured doing a job that she shouldn't have had to have been doing, which child labor is like all in conversation with obviously like class and the ability to survive. It's not just like her parents. And I like that the movie goes out of its way to introduce us to her mom. we don't get to know her mom especially well but we do get to I don't know I think that there is like a tendency at least in the U.S. to like reduce very large issues to like an individual family or person and have the thinking be like oh this child was sent to work how cruel of their parents when it's like well that that was the only situation that would have allowed this family to even remotely thrive that was like how the system was built and I like that you do get a moment with her

and her mom, and then she's still being a bit of a minion in that scene. Because she has all the power in that scene. She's the translator. And she's like, hmm, like she, I don't know. Did you see the Bulgarian movie that this is based on? It's called Yo-ho-ho. I have not. It's like the same kind of premise, but instead of a little girl, it's a little boy.

And the story is about like pirates. And it's a little bit more simplistic. But it's kind of the same broken arm in the hospital befriends a paraplegic. And then they make up a story. the paraplegic is also suicidal. But they kind of resist the villain in the room at the end. Okay. Interesting.

Okay, yeah. I knew it was based on, because I know that like lore-wise with the production of this movie, was that a movie that Tarsem saw when he was young and like wanted to create his version of, right? I think so. Seems like it. Yeah. So Tarsem went to film school in a. Oh, I forget the name of the school, but it's in Pasadena.

Yeah. His classmates included Michael Bay and Zach Snyder. Okay, a lot of really strong, weird guy energy. Of course he wasn't writing very strong women characters. Look at his peers. Come on. His classmates. I'm on his Wikipedia page right now, and the last sentence is,

Singh also acted in a student film of Bay and Snyder, including Pint Ginozzi in one of the latter's works. Wow. And you're like, and the less said about whatever the hell that is, the better. It's like, cool. Sure, why the hell not? But like, but it seems like Tarsum saw the Bulgarian film when he was in film school, which I'm guessing would have been like late 80s, early 90s. And from that point on, he's like, I'm making, I'm adapting this. I'm making my own version of this.

he and I'm pulling a lot of this information from an indie wire oral history of the fall that was published in 2024 and I I know this is so pedantic but I read the same article and I was like this isn't a damn oral history this is an article with an interview in it yeah right nice try Lela Jordan yeah get her ass but it's funny you mention that article because Lila and I went to college together. Oh, but, oh, okay, okay, tar some Michael Bay vibes. She's great. She's cool. Okay. I'm sure, I'm sure she didn't, she didn't write the headline either, but I was like, I was, I, I love world histories. And I was like, but this is, it's a good article, but an article nonetheless, but you, right? Let me tell you, film slop would not be publishing titles like that. No. And that's why everyone should

read film slop. You hear that? Yeah, listeners, multiple plugs. Listeners, for the record, I was being unfair. Their writers rarely get to pick their headlines. But whatever. In any case, Tarsem saw the film early on, wanted to make his own version of it, and basically throughout the 90s was like figuring out ways to do this. It seems like when he got his first big paycheck after directing a big commercial, he bought the rights to the Bulgarian film. From that point on, he was working with writers, production designers, things like that, to do. develop the movie and then it went into production finally. I don't know exactly when,

but I do know that it took four years to film. Tarsem funded the whole thing himself. Which I guess is like part of how he did that, which is pretty clever is like would take gigs like Mountain Dew commercials, be in a great location already, keep the same crew, like pay to retain the same crew from, the commercial so you didn't need to actually assemble his own international crews in every single country and then just fly the actress out.

Kind of something only he could have done at this exact moment, but I was like pretty, pretty cool 5D chess he's playing, scheduling was. For sure. I also read that he paid the entire cast and crew the same rate, no matter what their role was, which meant that some some people got paid a great. rate than they might have otherwise on a different production. It seems that other people would have taken a pay cut. But from what I read, anyone who took a pay cut was like, I'll gladly do it because I believe

so much in this project. That's called, I've, that's how I made my movie, Smiley Face. It's called a most favored nations setup that is designed to, it's, I don't know if this is how Tarcum did it, but I think that I only learned about. this to do this movie but that everyone is paid the same day rate and everyone gets back points so for people who are taking a pay cut it's and on my movie is kind of who wasn't taking a pay cut that there is like potential for more revenue on the on the back end um i guess not that anyone in the fall would have ever gotten the opportunity to get back end points because this movie was not

financially successful but sure it is coming back kind of i think they've had a little bit of run so I wonder if the new movie stuff has come to the actor terms how wild would that be if you started getting residuals like 20 plus years after the movie first after you shot something i mean that's how residuals should work it's just wild to think that for a movie that you very much had given up on ever seeing a cent from right best wishes to the cast and crew yeah for that i had a point to all this context I was providing, but now I forget what it was. We're talking about the international. I think we started in the international thing.

Right. Yeah, I guess just that Tarsom would take commercial directing jobs only in countries that he wanted to use locations for in his movie. Oh, right. I was just saying how basically the development and the production of this movie. So he funded himself by accepting these commercial directing gigs. and it happened over a four-year period. And so I'm guessing it went into production in the early 2000s,

because this movie premiered at TIF in 2006. Tarsen was hoping that Roger Ebert would champion his film as he did for The Cell, and that because of that kind of testimonial from Roger Ebert, he would get distribution for the movie after Tiff, aka the Toronto International Film Festival. But Roger Ebert was sick and didn't attend the festival. And then Harvey Weinstein,

world's greatest villain, basically was just like, this movie sucks. He walked out of it after 15 minutes. He literally bawled his fist up and was like, I'm confused and stormed out. And because of that like public rejection of the film, no one wanted to touch it.

it. No one wanted to buy it for distribution. And that's part of why this movie basically never came out and was so hard for anyone to get their hands on. And I mean, not that it was impossible because obviously people did see this movie and it developed a cult following, but it was very not accessible for most of the time this movie has existed. The end of my little story. It is. I mean, there's so, well, getting into the woman of it all, because I guess that's our job. Right, we're right. I do think it's interesting. We see these stories of various, I mean, and it's not like Tarson was like a world famous director. I think he was a very wealthy director because he directed so many commercials. So it is, there is kind of a distinction there. Totally. But people who finance their like dream projects on a very long.

large scale. I was looking at the list of directors that have done this through the years and they and you won't believe what they all have in common. They're all men. Only men have ever been able to, it seems like, afford to take a swing like this. Which I think just like gets back into conversations we've had before about, you know, whose big swings get the chance to even be, I mean, I think it is pretty upsetting like the way that the fall hit basically every, set back it could have hit. But that doesn't mean that Tarsem didn't get to realize through a lot of like

friftiness, but he could have, I mean, to be able to afford to make this movie is pretty staggering. He spent somewhere around $20 to $30 million of his own money on the production. And I liked in the in that article, in the Indie Wire article by Laila Jordan

innocent. He was like told his brother not to tell him how much money he had lost. But like to be in that position, you know, is very few directors have ever been in that position. Obviously, our most recent example is Spegalopolis. And I'm not even opposed, like, I've not opposed to that conceptually. It's like, sure. But yeah, I don't know. It just, I was, I was like, maybe, maybe there's a secret woman that I, that could have afforded to do this. But so far, it doesn't seem that that

was the case. And also, I mean, this movie opens on David Fincher and Spike Jones, presents to fellow male ateurs. And it turns out they had absolutely nothing to do with it. And they just put their names on it to increase its chances of being seen because they liked Tarsoom's previous work. So nice of them to do. And also funny that they had nothing to do with it.

Have you read the Vulture article that's like the 100 most powerful directors in Hollywood that came out like a week ago? I didn't for my own safety. I mean, it really does fall in. to the thing you're saying. I think there's like three women on that list. Yeah. It's like a, and I don't think it's a reflection of vulture or the person who wrote a reflection of the time. It's like there truly is like no power except outside of like Greta Gerwig enclosure who have had to kind of do everything and endure so much hate. Yeah. Okay. I haven't pulled up now.

I yeah. There's certain articles where I'm like maybe in a year. I don't want to be reminded how how low my chances or for success or. But it's also, it's like a fun contrast because there's like 20, 20 year old guys on there who, you know, maybe,

maybe aren't the most of deserved, but I guess that's just how power moves, which. Look, Kane Parsons get behind me. I will protect my nephew, Kane Parsons. I'm not talking about him,

don't worry. I don't think he made the list yet. It is fast. Yeah, we got Greta Gerwe, we get number four, but even she's stuck in franchise world. Like,

it's just, I don't know. I'm very glad that the fall is able to exist. I think that a lot of the conversation around this movie is it's wild that it was able to exist because this is not the kind of movie that anyone asks for. And it's like Tarsoom realizing his perfect art, which is like amazing. And I just wish that more women got the chance to do something equally unhinged as to what Tarsem has done here. Right.

Also the Mountain Dew commercials fun. That was my. Oh, did you watch it? I did. It's a samurai fight. It's pretty fun. We'll link it in the description. Yes, if you want to see the titular Rott and Doe commercial.

But going back to your initial remark, Ali, about like, this is a movie about a man relaying this story that he's making up as he goes, that he's drawing inspiration from

his real life, as well as kind of like historical events that were like in the news at the time. And then it's this young girl populating the version of the story that we're actually seeing unfold on screen. So while he's narrating it, she's like filling in the gaps and influencing the story, like we said earlier, because sometimes she'll like question story logic or react to a specific detail that he either then like emphasizes or changes depending on her reaction. So she has a lot of influence over this story. And a part that I thought was so moving was

toward the end, it's after Alexandria has fallen trying to retrieve more pills for Roy. And she has a head injury. And she's crying and begging Roy to finish the story. And he's like, I don't want to. It's my story. I can do whatever with it. And she's like, no, it's my story too. And she's absolutely right because she's had so much influence over it. And Roy is so frustrating at this point in the story where I'm like, can you fucking grow up for what this kid cracked her head open? Trying to help you. Trying to help you. And you're like, no, my girlfriend. Shut up, dude. A child could have died. Also, like, the story that he's telling at first kind of sucks. It's just a guy who has been spurned and now he's going revenge mode.

And I love a revenge story. I think when I was 12, I found a copy of an abridged version of the Count of Monica Cristo and made it my personality in third grade. I was like having my friends in the playground. I was teaching them about vengeance at the right age of 12. And we were like going at it. But this story is just like he's just, I got rejected. So now I'm going to kill every single person. And there's even the characters that he inserts, like I think you mentioned Darwin and Andamanca, who are both representations of social Darwinism.

It's like a very man strong, survival fittest. better I destroy thing and then until Alexandria begins like input her lens there's a softness and more nuance to it which I think is really funny that like the seven year old is coming in with so much like just five year old she's even younger yeah I've just been throwing out numbers randomly I've been like 12 seven but yeah I think that that's something that like the script in the story does

very well is like it does clear like this story is enhanced the moment she gets involved. And at the end, she kind of saves the story on multiple levels where she, you know, like reassures Roy, like, no, you're awesome dude. Because that's what has to happen. But also, like, it becomes a better story for her having been involved. It's not just the tantrum ending that Roy wants it to be. But, yeah, within that story, we are, I guess, subjected to Roy's conception.

of women and rejection quite a bit. And like you're saying, Ali, like Alexandria's pushback on that sort of ends up giving the story more depth than it would have had otherwise. But there's still not really, until Alexandria shows up in the story, Lil Bandit style.

Which I kind of wish had happened earlier. Sure. She had maybe inserted herself in earlier, but sorry, go on. But before then, yeah, it's very, like, he's creating these, and I still want to talk about the historic people, that he chooses, specifically Odubenga, but he's assembling his, you know, 1920s Avengers,

his morphine Avengers. And, you know, of course, of course they are all men and there is, it sticks out to me most of like this character's conception of women in, yeah, in the scene where first of all, there's like, oh, sort of a white savior thing going where a group of enslaved people are liberated. But then immediately after he sees a woman. is like, I will marry her. She's mine. And you're like, all right. So we're playing with a bunch of different rules in here.

And that character never, like, fails to ever fully take shape, which corresponds with how that like, whatever, clearly, even though we see her as Nurse Evelyn in the story world, I think to Roy, it's his ex-girlfriend who has dumped him for a Hollywood guy. Yeah, movie star. And I do feel like this story, like we only really get one glimpse of her. She's crying. She's at the hospital. Like, but we never get to know who this woman is.

Perhaps maybe she had a good reason for Brit. Like it's never conceived of. We're told she left me for a richer more successful man. And it does seem like he's an asshole. But perhaps she has a type and Roy was also an asshole. Like we're, we're, I think that the way the story. works, we're left to believe, you know, kind of in the more classic, um, broad storytelling sense, she left him because he was less powerful, not because maybe his personality sucked.

Roy does objectively suck. Like, this is a guy who, he's not a good dude. Also, can we talk about how the first chance he gets? He's like, oh, she doesn't want me. I have to kill her now. That's like a yes. Yeah. And for a character that he's like has clear, like he as the storyteller has no interested in her in superiority. He's like, she's beautiful. She is mine. She's not mine. Time to die. And then the other woman who appears very, very briefly toward the beginning of his story is the character whose name is the Indian. His wife is kidnapped and then fridged to motivate the Indian's narrative and like story of revenge for the rest of the movies. So. Right, which is like in the context of like the time this story is taking place in might make sense, but it's also being written in the early 2000s.

And we have this little girl here who's never seen a movie before. Like that's a great opportunity to have pushback on a plot point like that. If there's a little girl that's like there's no girls in this story, you know, maybe the direction actually changes. Like I don't think it needed to be like a one to one of like what the. of women in movies in the 20s would have been, which wasn't even exclusively that. But, yeah, yeah, there's, we do have Nurse Evelyn, who, as we said, we're fans. She, we don't get, I mean, again, we don't get a ton of, uh, we get a fair amount of time with her. I don't think we get like a, a, she doesn't really have much of her own story.

But we do get some time with her. We get one scene with Alexandria's mom. that I appreciated. But again, like, except for Alexandria, there's not really a girl or woman in the story that you get to know or that, like, the movie seems to have interest in outside of a symbol of something else. Because I think while I really like Nurse Evelyn, she ultimately kind of symbolizes a maternal figure for Alexandria.

And like a maternal figure specifically because she takes care of her, she puts her at ease, and she shows her how to put on makeup. And those are kind of the things that Nurse Evelyn does. I also, I think Nurse Evelyn's perception, even in Alexandria's mind, kind of shows a little bit of a normalization. And, oh, that is the pretty woman who takes care of me. Her purpose is to marry the nice man that I have met in the hospital. And I put them together.

And this is what society has taught me to believe, which, I mean, it is a reflection of how people think, unfortunately, but not great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like, going back to your original point, Ellie, like, it is kind of an in-sell revenge story on Roy's part that I don't think the movie is pushing back off, like, not commenting on enough to just, I kind of am like, maybe this is where, like, Tarsom's like, yeah, exactly. Anyone in his position would do the same. How dare she? Like, yeah, maybe you should have gotten dumped, Roy. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. Based on Roy's whole, I mean, I understand, like, whatever. I'll show. this man who doesn't exist grace why not that he is recently paralyzed and like the whole shape of his life is going to change he is feeling upset that this is going to cost him the career path he was on all this stuff like he's at a low point obviously he's he's suicidal but i don't but i don't think that that makes his like i but it seems like he's blaming his ex-girlfriend for all of this in the story and in his attitude towards her. Yeah, maybe not our best movie for women. But again, like, Alexandria saves so much of it.

I'm so glad that they cast a young girl in this role. Also, not to objectify Leepace, but do you realize how massively you probably fucked up to be dumped when you look like Leapace? For a guy who's like, he's fine. He's like a decently attractive man. I'll give him that odious or whatever. the Sinclair. But to break up with Lee Pace for him, Lee Pace has

to have a really terrible personality. For a second, I thought that the famous actor was played by Jason Schwartzman, but I was wrong. I don't know. I think I've just seen him wear a little hat like that in a different movie. But yes,

that I think maybe confirms that Roy had a shitty personality because he's Lee Pace. He's a gainfully employed Lee Pace. Like, what's the problem. What's going on here? He can do stunts. He can, he's able to convince children to give him the devices to kill himself. He's clearly got charisma. Although if you have to manipulate a child, maybe you're not the guy. He knows how to do a solution. But you were saying that you're glad you

cast a girl. And I think to your credit, the original version of the story was a 10 year old boy and a grown man. So I think this iteration, I'm curious about why Tarsem went for this, and I'm not sure it's with the same nuances and motivations that we're talking about. But I'm really intrigued to see what his intentions are of I need to bring a girl into what kind of norms are at the foundation of that. Yeah, because I think without Alexandria, this movie is almost completely essentialist about gender and gender roles and who's entitled to who as literal property. He calls dibs. He literally calls dives. From what I learned, and I can't remember if this was from the IndyWire article or, it must have

been, that when they were casting for the child, they weren't looking for any specific gender, they were more looking for children that responded very, like, emphatically to stories that were being told. So in their travels as they were doing location scouting or prep work or something like that, they were in Romania and they went to a school and observed a teacher or some adult telling a story to a group of children. And the person who fit the bill the best was this young girl Katinka, who I think was four and a half at the time. by the time they shot her scenes she was I believe six but yeah she was just cast because she gave such like animated responses to hearing a story she's awesome and and her casting I feel like

saves what what at least from a gender perspective of what otherwise would have been saying not very much and then there are some other things to consider about the story that Roy tells that are perhaps not super great, such as, again, the character who is just called the Indian, who is also completely silent. I think he never has any dialogue and feels very underdeveloped as a character as a result. There's the Odebenga character who does say some things,

but he similarly doesn't have a ton of dialogue. And Oda Benga is also, it's such a, I'm curious why they pull this specific historical figure. Because Oda Benga would have been probably someone who Roy living in the 20s would have been aware of, but had an extremely tragic life that I know that I think that the idea of the story is to bring this historical figure into a story and have him have more of a triumphant moment. But without any context, it's just, it's, so the background with Otabengo is that he was a formerly enslaved person from the Congo who was brought to the U.S. as an exhibit. So basically treated throughout his life first as an exhibit of an enslaved person from the Congo at the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition. And then later was brought to the Bronx Zoo and literally exhibited as a zoo.

animal, like put in cages with monkeys and apes. And then eventually just made, quote, unquote, an exhibit of his own. And this is, I mean, this was happening in the early 1900s. And he eventually took his own life in 1916. So horrific, like, I don't even know where to begin. So for, I don't know, I just feel like this is, I'm no object to Oda Benga being, like, awareness being brought to him. But it's like if you're bringing Oda Banga into the conversation,

I feel like you really have a responsibility to do so carefully and like thoughtfully. Because by 2006, you know, this is not someone who we really discuss and not someone who I would imagine the U.S. is willing to acknowledge that this happened, not to mention just a hundred years before this movie was being filmed. So, well, it doesn't seem to be like an openly antagonistic. I don't think that this is being done, that this is. historical figures being brought into the story in a way that is intended to cause harm. But I just didn't seem, given who Odebenga is and how tragic his story was, I don't know.

I don't know. That choice was confusing to me, especially because, so the other historical figure that is referenced by name as a character in Roy's story is Charles Darwin. And he gets a whole story. And it's and the monkey and it's referencing the dispute between Charles Darwin and Alfred Russell Wallace regarding like the credit for the ideas that were put forth in on the origin of species, which is again directly reference in the sense that the Charles Darwin character is often seen stealing ideas that Wallace the monkey gave him and then taking sole credit for them. So his story is like specifically referenced, but then Otabenga, the only references about the real historical person that you see in the character in this movie is that he's a former enslaved person. And then he also carries a bow and arrow, which is a reference to when real life Otabenga was literally put in a cage alongside an orangutan. he was given a functional bow and arrow in case he needed to use it against the ape for his protection.

But instead of doing that, Otabanga would shoot people who mocked him at the exhibit. So the bow and arrow is referenced, but again, you don't know any of the context for it if you were just watching this movie. Yeah. Yeah, it's just very bizarre. It feels pretty, I mean, especially because Charles, Darwin is a historical figure that most Western audiences are like he's very he's taught in schools. But for this movie to go, yeah, out of its way to like reference some like kind of B-side Charles Darwin lore. Right.

And give that historical figure. I mean, we also have Alexander the Great at the beginning as well. But to have that historical figure given more depth and more references and like this like kind of I think kind of is like beautiful, tragic scene. the end. The monkey scene at the end is so sad and I wasn't able to find the name of the actor who played Wallace. He's not credited. He's not credited in the movie. I was hoping for a Jimmy the Raven kind of situation. But anyways, that is side. Or Sully Seagull, if you have listened to a recent lighthouse episode on our Matrion. Legend. Sully Siegel, scene stealer. But all that to say, yeah, like this movie clearly does have the time's faith and energy to build out

the historical characters they're invoking and do not do that for Ode Benga. And it's like if you're not able to contend with the history of what Oda Benga went through and how tragic his story was, then why choose him to include in the first place? Like I just was confused by that choice. It's bizarre. And then in addition to that, again, regarding Roy's story and the details he chooses to include, You've also got the mystic played by a white actor who various points in the movie has like different shades of darkened skin, aka he's in like black and brown face. And then for that character and like his quote unquote mystic cult, it felt to me like they were coded as an indigenous tribe.

and it feels like tropes around indigenous characters were present, especially because we never really learn anything about any of these characters, so we're just seeing stereotypical imagery. But then you think about who is conceiving and telling this story, and it's Roy, who is a cis white man in the 1920s, so it's not going to be a progressive, inclusive, story but also this movie was made in the early 2000s so there can also be um there's also a specific kind of early 2000s prejudices that are like any period piece you're like okay so there's the

prejudices of the time we're talking about and also whatever the hell was going on when they made it um right i was doing i was doing some side reading on otabanga and i found something kind of interesting So the movie, the fall takes place in 1915. Oda Banga died. Okay. Yeah, so he would have still been alive. Yeah, but he died of suicide in 1960 and due to depression, which I think is a really interesting parallel to the Le Pace character. And potentially maybe why Tarsem included it, but I don't know if the description there is, because I think there's a lot of peril, but I just don't think it's handled as gently.

Right. I feel like we don't have enough information, maybe. I do want to know the psychology of why he included that. Yeah, because it's not, not that, like, Odebega is like a historical figure who we should talk about, but I'm just like, in this movie, it's just like, it just feels like a weird choice.

And it's a, yeah, for him to take on and then actually not take on. Just, there are so many choices made in the movie, the fall 2006. It's a movie of choices. And it's so, so. So many choices. Yeah. Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about regarding all these choices?

I know. Any other choices to talk about? We've talked about the choices. I would love to see Minion James's version of the fall. I'll say that. Oh, my God. I don't know what he would be doing, but I do think it would be problematic in its own light. It's, I mean, yeah, I think, you know, James and also the fact that,

oh, that's not, spoilers for minions and monsters. don't let it ruin it for you. At the end, we find out that the movie we've just watched was written and directed by James, and so possibly none of it happened at all, and it's just James's rewriting of history. Wow. Meaning that all of, you know, any tropes,

any harmful tropes presented in minions and monsters, well, that's kind of on James. James Le Mignon. Yes. So, you know, it's male autateurs. They're going to do it every single time, even James. Again, they're making choices out there.

A lot of pressure to be a male autort and a minion. It is kind of scary to me that James the minion is ranked higher than Greta Girlwig on Vulture's 100 most powerful directors. But how many IMAX screens? That's Hollywood, baby. To be fair to the minions, I guess they don't have a nuanced understanding of gender because they're all male, so it kind of, yeah, it's a weird, weird dynamic. But that word for.

Scarlet Overkill, you know, like they know a powerful woman when they see one. Props of them. It's, God, bring Scarlet Overkill back. If there's one Minions Expanded Universe character I want back, it's her. Anyways, okay, that's all my thoughts I have on this movie. Same. If we're back to Minions. Yeah.

We brought up the minions more times than the fall in this conversation. It's fine. Every movie comes back eventually. Of course, of course. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yes. It does. It passes between Alexandria and Nurse Sampelin a couple different times. I think it also passes between Alexandria and her mom, although I cannot be totally sure because I do not speak the language that Alexandria's mom does. Well, when Alexandria is translating for her mother, it seems as though one of the things that her mother wants to know is like how much longer Alexandria needs to be there slash what is that goal?

going to cost her, which goes back to class. Yes. But yeah, we don't, we don't know exactly what the conversation is, but we glean bits here and there. But yes, that conversation does seem to pass, I would say. I think so. Yeah, I guess the reason I said I couldn't say for sure is because it seems like she's mistranslating her mom at several points in that conversation. But, but yeah, either way, it does pass the Bechdel test, not handily.

and I don't think, you know, there is a retroactive feminist argument to be made for this particular movie. But Alexandria, I mean, she's the saving grace of this movie. Definitely, yes. And then as far as our nipple scale, the scale where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. This is tricky. It's a top one. you know it's it's not doing great i would say especially if we're considering the nature of roy's

story and his failure to include women meaningfully and the fact that we haven't really said this but at the end of the movie it doesn't seem like he's really meaningfully even though like he clearly has formed a strong connection with this awesome kid it doesn't seem like he's meaningfully grown as a person. He's still kind of like boo-hoo, boo-hoo, my GF dumped me. Like, that's kind of his thing the whole movie. Yeah. It seems like I'm not going to commit suicide, but I will still see women as what I've seen them for the first place. Yeah. She did what she. I still, I don't have any reason to believe that he doesn't blame her fully at the end of the movie also. I think he just feels worse because it is. He seems aware that it's his fault,

of what happened to Alexandria, but I think he still blames his ex-girlfriend for basically everything else. Because the way he ends, like, her arc in his story is that she comes back up to him and says, this was all just an elaborate test to get you to prove how much you loved me. Projecting. Yeah. Right. And then he says something like, no thanks.

Bye forever. As if, like, it almost seems like a, I'm not fired. I quit. kind of thing. It's also middle school. Like when I was in middle school, the way that people would break up with each other is they'd get in each other's face and go, you're cut. And that's sort of like what he's doing there. He's like, nah, you're cut. Wow. I know you are, but what am I? Every breakup I've been through, I'm like, what if I just said, you're cut? Yeah, dare, dare you. Move out. You're cut. I feel like you should do that. It's just clear communication. It seems like

that's your duty when you're breaking up with someone. You just have to be really clear. I can't like there's there's no there's no road for reconciliation as I said you're cut you're cut you can't really misinterpret that it's very clear yeah in any case um so yeah Roy's story plays into a lot of tropes surrounding women being damsels or being fridged tropes surrounding the various characters of color and characters who I feel like are coded as indigenous but again we're not really sure what's going on there a lot of the time. But, yeah, Roy's story that he's telling does not fare well on the Bechtelcass nipple scale. The larger movie is a little bit more complicated because, again, it is a story that this little girl is populating and interpreting through her lens. And so we see sort of like a more interesting and more nuanced version of the story that Roy is telling, but she's also five years old. So it's not going to be too nuanced. But I do appreciate

that the child character is a little girl and she is like inserting her sensibilities into the stories. So I don't know, like two nipples. I have no idea. I almost want to like defer. I'm, I'm going to rate it because he wants this to be viewed as a movie and so I and so I must rate it fair okay also I'll go with two nipples then I'm gonna go I think I'm gonna go and this is again I guess qualifying up by say I feel like so often if we're gonna if there's like a criticism of this show they're like they gave it such a low rating and it's like well but look at the framing of the rating we're never rating it on how much we liked it except if it's a minions movie they were giving it five of course

But, you know, the point of the show is we're talking about a very specific subject within movies that we like. I say that because I am going to give this a 1.5. And I really, really, really liked the movie and I will be watching. It's stunning. It's incredible. It's moving. It's great. It's going in the rotation.

However, this movie doesn't, I mean, outside of Alexandria's very strong characterization, which we know, has a lot more to do with. the performer than maybe the writing. This movie is pretty essential in the way that it views gender. And also, I mean, I think just knowing how Katinka and Taru was sort of spoken down to

by the director also just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially because one of the points it does seem to try to be making about this character is that she shouldn't be, like that it's dangerous for children to be working and overworked. So it feels a little

dissident in that way and then everything else we've talked about so yeah I'm gonna go 1.5 and I'm giving them both to my good friend Katinka who did not who who elected to not really go on to do very much acting and I'd be I haven't seen any interviews with her so I'd be curious as to like why she made that decision yeah Holly how about you I think I'm with Caitlin and just pure middle of the road. This is kind of a two-nipple movie, a five-star movie in general for me, because it's one of the most beautiful things. Top three. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it is, like, it does, it does push the message of you need more diversity in the stories that you tell, but it is kind of unfortunate to put all that weight on relying on a five-year-old, a child, to be the voice of diversity when

they should kind of come from the adults. And there are a lot of questionable decisions made in lenses of acceptance that I don't necessarily think are the greatest perhaps. Also, apparently El Fanning was in talks to be the child. Yeah. The Fanning sisters are so iconic. Like, it is wild how I forget that El Fanning, I think she may have recently turned 30, which is wild because I cannot. No, she's 28. I can't conceive of a world in which El Fanning is not doing three movies a year. It's wild. I also am just like, is she not still a child? No, I guess not. She's not made for an Oscar last year. Oh my gosh. For sentimental value. Oh, yeah. Which I saw. And she was very clearly an adult in that movie. So I don't know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, Ollie, thank you so much for joining us for this discussion and giving us an excuse to finally watch this movie. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Tell us what you'd like to to plug where people can follow your work, et cetera. Yeah, I think I've talked a lot about film slop, but film slop is my child. It is a film review site that I kind of started because I used to freelance and I liked writing about movies, but I never felt like I was writing things in my own voice. And now it's just become a space where you can engage with movies in the same way that kind of the fall does, where our ethos is blending personal narrative in films.

as an editor, I don't really care about what you thought of the technical craft of the movie. I care more about where it exists within the lived experience of yourself. So yeah, if anyone ever wants a starting point in terms of writing or interviews are kind of getting into the world of film journalism and wants to build a portfolio, we are very happy to work with you. And yeah, and then I think the other thing I would like to promote is my sister runs a human rights foundation based on, in the Middle East called T-I-M-E-P time up. So if any of you are fans of human rights, that is a place to go.

She's doing cool things, and she is my older sister. So it would be bad of me to not mention it at every opportunity that I got. That's amazing. That's so cool. And you're, yeah, everyone check out Philipsop. You're a great writer.

I'm like, I just love following along. And check out all these interview with a certain couple people named Caitlin and Jamie. Yeah, check it. We are Film Slop, F-I-L-M-S-L-O-P on Instagram, and FilmSlop.com on the internet. Yay.

That's where you can find us. And you can find us in all the normal places on Instagram, as well as on our Patreon, a-k-K-MATRION.com slash the Bechtelcast, $5 a month, gets you access to two new episodes a month on a theme of sometimes yours, sometimes our choosing, as well as a backlog of over 200 bonus episodes going back nearly, I think, eight years now. And keep your eyes peeled because we'll be announcing tour dates very soon. Yes. And with that, googly, googly, googly, googly, be gone. Bye.

Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her?

Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechtelcast. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The Dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia AEO rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode

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