The Bechdel Cast - The Full Monty

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Jamie and Caitlin discuss The Full Monty for Caitlin's birthday episode!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow@BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nickname Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer,

this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeartTrue Crime Plus, only on Apple Podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge, better known as the Twats. Yep. You heard that right. We're the hosts of Two Teas in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week we break down every episode and give you our opinions. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble. Okay. Maybe a lot of trouble. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the bechdel cast hey jamie i have to tell you something oh yeah what what is it you know how we will resume touring and doing live shows you know when it's safe yeah of Well, I told everyone that we would be doing them completely nude. Is that okay? No.

No. But we have to give them something that the other podcast hosts don't. We have to go the full Monty. Okay, fine. You know what? You know what? But only if it's shot from the back uh-huh yeah only if it's shot from the back and then yes I will do it yeah we will just do our shows with our butts

facing the audience wouldn't be the first time it would be the first time in Bechdel cast history that I I wonder what if we just like launched into a tour announcement after that we're like so does that sound exciting and guess what chicago we're finally coming to your city we're coming to your city there you know what i in that that scene i was like they should bail on him they should bail on him there's a lot of times where I'm like you know I get why Gaz is is our is our is our he's our protagonist we're supposed to root for him but there were a few times where I'm like Gaz you've crossed several lines and I'm seeing everyone's points very clearly yeah he makes some choices certainly choices were made in gaz's life choices were made

welcome to the bechdel cast and happy birthday caitlin it's your birthday episode thank you so much i'm so delighted to be doing this movie this is one of my favorites. I love the full Monty. It's nice to be having a birthday. Something to look forward to. Better than the last birthday. Some happy moment. I feel like it's the nice thing for, I mean, we're, you know, then it's very regional. But here it's, you know, these birthdays are better than the last birthdays.

And that's great. So, yeah, this is our podcast. Oh, yeah. The Bechdelcast, by the way. And this is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Jamie, it's my birthday. I don't feel like saying what the Bechdel test is. Can you do it?

That's literally fine yes I can tell you that uh the Bechdel test is a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test for our purposes two people of a marginalized gender with names have a two line or more discussion about something other than a man and we uh request going forward that that the conversation be meaningful in the plot that it has some sort of effect on what happens and it's not just a throwaway exchange okay yes so that's the test. And this is the podcast. And the movie, again, is The Full Monty. Jamie, what's your relationship with this movie? a bit I didn't really know what it was about and then a couple Christmases ago because we we keep Christmas together and uh and yeah you you you turned it on and I absolutely loved it there you go I'm so glad and it was it was fun to because I mean I think we what we like kind of half watched it on Christmas and I was like wow this is really heartwarming and then we watched Paddington 2 which was all the more heartwarming oh my goodness and and now it's officially the greatest movie of all time i know

isn't that citizen kane take that you turd you know what i think that we can now double down on never covering citizen kane because now it's the worst movie ever made i think that's how that works right yeah it's a cyclical it's a cyclical. It's a cyclical. Once you leave the top, you have actually been brought down to dead last. But yeah, no, my history of it is you showed it to me over holiday. And I really enjoyed it. And it was really interesting to watch. For podcast purposes. There's so much to talk about. Yes. What's your history? My mom introduced me to this movie when I was in high school. She kept ranting and raving about it and saying, Caitlin, this is such a good movie. I think you'll really like it. And I was resistant at first because I was like, a thing that my mom likes, there's no way it's good or cool.

And then I watched it finally. I was probably a sophomore in high school. And I saw it. I think she and I watched it together. That's so nice. And I loved it. So my mom was right. Turns out my mom has pretty good taste in media, at least. And I've loved it so my mom was right turns out my mom has pretty good taste in media at least and i've loved

it ever since i watched this movie several times a year i've seen it probably like 40 times now but i haven't watched it through the bechdel cast lens until until now until now uh there's yeah there there's i think for for 1997 indie movie there's a hell of a lot to talk about yes yes there sure is should i just dive in to to the recap and yeah let's go for it it's i mean it's your birthday lead lead the way oh my gosh i will guide you uh okay so we open on a 70s era newsreel about sheffield england which i learned was like a real like an actual yes like promotional movie made about sheffield it's like a classic uh come to our industrial town there's things going on here we swear we promise it feels kind of familiar and it's you're also like this is all lies right and it is indeed about how sheffield is an industrial hot spot with an amazing nightlife and cool things to do. And also it manufactures steel.

Then we cut to 25 years later, the steel mill has closed. We meet Gaz, which is Robert Carlyle and his pal Dave, Mark Addy, who are unemployed steel mill workers. Gaz's son, Nathan, is also there. Knife! Hoy knife! Hoy knife! And this is for Americans watching this movie for the first time, you're going to want to have the subtitles on more so than usual.

Because I was like, there was whole i was like hoi knife even with the subtitles there's so much slang like yorkshire slang that you you have to do a lot of googling there is also some did you notice this um i i watched i was watching this on amazon prime fuck jeff bezos but i was watching it on Amazon Prime. Fuck Jeff Bezos, but I was watching it on Amazon Prime. But there were like little phrases that were, it seems like they were 80-yard to be Americanized, but in the subtitles, they remained English. Yeah.

There was like, they changed like an English credit card to like MasterCard or like little things like that. I was like, ooh, they like, I feel like that's like TBS syndrome or something when it was that I was like oh they like I feel like that's like TBS syndrome or something when it was like oh when they started syndicating this movie in America they changed things so that it would make sense to our puny brains right but then there's also large swaths of dialogue where they say something like um there's naut, which means nothing. Or, oh, I know more than some chuffing woman.

Which is a very feminist thing to say. Or, don't get a benny on. I never cracked that one. What is that? I think it just means like, it's kind of of like don't get your panties in a bunch. Maybe. Oh, okay. Okay. I did consult my friend, Jake.

Shout out, Jake. Who lived in Sheffield for a couple of years. And I was like, I was like, Jake, tell me. Because, yeah, I think he went to university there. Uni. Yeah. But he was like, I honestly have not heard a lot of this slang. So I don't know if it was like 90s era slang that had like kind of gone out of style by the time he lived there.

Or it could have been like really relegated to like working class slang. There's a lot of possibilities. My favorite turn of phrase happens really early in the movie when uh they're walking towards the chippendale show and gaz is like what is this and nate is like it's them chippendale efforts and i was like what an interesting way to say that uh i want to start calling all performances efforts um i feel like it's a more honest way of referring to most performance like like our upcoming live shows the bechtel cast efforts yeah we're gonna start calling them our live efforts and you know if you don't like them uh that we didn't say you're gonna like them we said it was gonna there was gonna be effort put in yeah we were going to try. That's all. That's all we can do.

Oh, goodness. Yeah, so there's a lot of very specific regional slang in the movie that makes some of the dialogue a bit difficult to understand for Americans and I'm sure other groups. But it's fun. But it's fun to decode. Yes, indeed. Okay, so where were we? Gaz, Dave, and Nathan are all in this steel mill trying to steal an old girder. Or like an I-beam, I guess is what I would know that as.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, so that they can sell it for scrap metal because they're unemployed and they have very little money right on the way back home they pass a working men's club basically like a venue a strip club where these chip and dill efforts are happening right so it's like it's like ladies night at the men's club essentially right yeah right because it's for women only and dave's his wife jean is there gaz and nathan sneak into the club jean and her friends come into the restroom they overhear jean talking about how like dave has given up on their relationship right and then someone pees on the wall exciting yes very exciting then we see gaz and dave at

job club which is like an unemployment office um they're trying to get jobs their former boss gerald that's tom wilkinson is there and they're talking about the strip club and they're making remarks about sort of like how they feel obsolete as men but also like oh there were so many women there and they were paying money to see men dance around. Then Gaz gets notice that he's going to lose joint custody of Nathan if he doesn't pay child support. Right. Which he can't afford to do. This is a moment that in a very different way. But this specific character of Barry, who is like the new dad in town. He reminds me so much of Neil from the Santa Claus

franchise I was like oh the new dad in town I know this character it's a very like it's I mean it's a it's a stock character that's existed for a long time like so-and-so's new significant other yeah and they're like villainized in a way that is probably not fair uh but i i feel like in the 90s it was such a specific vibe that it was like and also he's got a lot of hair and he's wearing a sweater like it was a really specific aesthetic of like if you are the new dad you are wearing uh like a knit sweater a cable knit sweater this was also carrie you wells's character in liar liar a big movie of my childhood i have never there like i just have never seen it jim carrey and Adam Sandler canon completely eluded me as a youth. Probably for the best.

I think I'm better off for it, but there are some basic party talk literacy that I just can't keep up. Is Liar Liar good? I have not seen it since I was probably 12. All right. But I don't imagine it holds up very well. Reasonable. But I loved it since I was probably 12. All right. But I don't imagine it holds up very well. Reasonable.

But I loved it when I was 12. What if everything we loved when we were 12 held up? You know, I'd still be watching Rent. Yeah. Yeah. You know, anyways. Anyways. So Gaz argues with his ex-wife, Mandy, about this like sole custody situation.

And then he gets the idea to put on a strip show as a way of earning money to pay child support, which he pitches to Dave, who is like, um, no, this doesn't sound like a good idea right then they come upon Lomper a security guard at the steel mill who they rescue from a suicide attempt and they befriend him and they all start hanging out and they rope him into this strip show that idea that scene is very I mean we'll talk about it but that scene is very sweet where he's where they're like where it's it's such a i don't know it's fun watching like the the way that bonding happens in this movie of like where they're all kind of yelling at each other still but they're trying to be friends to each other it's very sweet where they're like where are your mates now and he's like oh okay okay why are we yelling but you know i appreciate the sentiment yeah and then

gaz is still on about this strip show he can't let it go and dave is kind of warming up to the idea nathan is very embarrassed by his dad well nathan just shouldn't be around whatever is going on here that's like my main thing with Gaz like the we'll talk in general I don't think that Gaz's ex-wife Mandy is demonized really which is good because I don't really I very much see where she's coming from um it seems like her son is repeatedly being put in pretty unsafe, irresponsible situations. You're not wrong. Yeah.

Yeah, so he's there. He, like, Gaz is trying to do a strip tease just to, like, see how it goes. He's terrible at it. It's really funny. He runs away. Yes, so it's very funny. And they realize that they can't really dance and they don't know what they're doing.

So they approach their old boss, Gerald, who does like ballroom dance, and they ask him to join their group. Gerald's whole thing is that he hasn't told his wife that he's lost his job because he's like too proud yes and he eventually agrees to join the group then they hold auditions to add a couple more men to their troop they recruit horse who's got some good dance moves and guy who has a large penis and that's what he has to contribute to the group what's the phrase that's like the lunchbox has landed i'm like uh-huh that's such a fun line of dialogue where i'm like out of context i'm like this could mean anything but in context i'm like i know exactly what he's talking about do you remember on myspace when you could have just like a little like tagline in your profile yeah that was my tagline for the entire time i had myspace the

lunchbox has landed oh my god that is honest that is that holds up i feel like mine were just like bright eyes lyrics mine were pretty embarrassing mine were like i wish i could write a perfect sonnet like embarrassing oh goodness okay they then steal a copy of flash dance and watch it for inspiration we gotta cover flash dance on the podcast at some point by the way there's so many levels of things i want to talk about with flash dance because it podcast at some point by the way there's so many levels of things i want to talk about with flash dance because it's directed by the same guy who directed the 1997 lolita there's it's an adrian line movie holy shit i did not know that it was his first big movie

how wild how did he i i mean i haven't watched it in a couple of years, but I feel like Flashdance is like cool with some feminist themes. And then all of a sudden, Lolita, like how did things go so wrong? Well, I I I I can connect the dots there. I think I think it's because once he did Fatal Attraction, he was like, oh oh i'm just never it he made so much money um you know making women look um horrible that i think he's like let's just roll with this that's my theory but also i just don't i think he's just kind of mediocre but flash dance itself i i haven't seen it in like 10 years but i really liked watching it i just i associate that movie with sweating because you just it makes you want to get up and dance it's true anyway so we'll

cover it someday we will in the meantime they're watching flash dance they start putting together a choreographed routine which they're all pretty bad at then there's like this training montage then they come upon a couple women who they know and they're like well what do you guys have to offer that these real chip and dale dancers can't and gaz is like well this lot will go all the way the full monty and we're like that's the name of the movie i know and then they say it back and forth three different times and i'm like it's really satisfying but also gaz you gotta check in with your friends it's true come on yeah gaz problematic but now they have no choice but to do full nudity because it has been announced to those two women who they're like well they're

such gossips that they'll tell everyone also while this is all happening we learn that most of the men have something that they're like insecure about or dealing with in their personal lives for example dave is having body image issues which is leading to like a sexual slump with gene he's not sure how to talk about it with her she doesn't know how to bring it up with him right it's one of those things um horse is insecure about the size of his penis. Gerald gets unexpected erections and he's worried that it'll happen when he's on stage during the show. Then they do a dress rehearsal in the old steel mill in front of horses family,

which this is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. It's so funny the reaction shots are truly priceless yeah uh dave is not there because he's having second thoughts he's gotten a job as a security guard at asda which store he shoplifted. Oh, right. Yes. Okay, just checking. Yep. During the dress rehearsal, they get caught by the factory security guard and they get arrested. Because of this, Gaz can no longer see his son

until he has a meeting with social services. Also, Guy and Lomper had fled the scene when the security guard shows up. Yeah. They run off to Lomper had like fled the scene when the security guard shows up yeah they run off to lomper's house uh where they have a little moment with each other i forgot about that why um i don't know if i remembered that from my first viewing and i was like oh wow yeah cute then gerald's wife finds out that he has been lying about being unemployed this whole time. And she kicks him out of the house. Lomper's mom passes away.

Dave's wife thinks that he's cheating on her because she finds his stripper thong and stuff. So this is what we would call the low point. But Dave is like, no, I'm a stripper, but I'm not going to go through with it because no one would want to see me. And she's like, well, you should do it because I would watch you. So now. That scene made me cry.

It's really sweet. It's really nice. They love each other, but they don't know how to communicate. It's nice. And then it's time for the big show the house is packed they've sold hundreds of tickets oh my gosh it looks not unlike they have a venue that is not unlike uh venues that we do for here like it's just it's a bar but large it's yeah it may be nostalgic for rooms full of people i know i know and then dave shows up because he has decided to do the show after all gaz has some last minute second thoughts because there are men in the audience but then nathan is

like come on dad go strip but nathan like, I gave you my only money. You have to do it. And Gaz is like, oh, yeah. Oh, right. So he goes out there. They do the show. They strip. They go the full Monty.

And then that's the end of the movie. Freeze frame. And it's, oh, what a treat. And that's the movie. Shall we take a break? Let's take a break and we'll be right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who, on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today.

And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of this right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI

in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session, 24 hours. BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that?

You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Yes, we are um so i think one of the things that i have always been like drawn to and attached to with this movie and this is something like that i one of the reasons like i wanted to start this podcast from the jump was that i was noticing that so many of my favorite movies were very like male centered and had male protagonists sure and women were not prominent characters in a lot of the movies that I liked because also

that's most of what's available but I I still tend to like gravitate towards stories about men that are like that like are not about toxic men I guess or not i mean i let's i'll throw one out there paddington paddington exactly famously unproblematic um star of the best movie ever made officially eat shit orson welles sorry that's what it is which uh citizen kane very toxic man wait are you suggesting william randolph hurst was a toxic person i mean we will never we'll never have this discussion because we're never gonna cover we're never gonna cover this movie but yes so i appreciate stories about men that are about men who are like not oozing with toxic masculinity and this is one of the things that like drew me to this movie where

i mean there are arguments to be made that like oh gaz does some like he does make some questionable choices but what i always found so like interesting and compelling about this movie is that one of the major themes that gets explored is like the movie's exploration of toxic standards of masculinity and how those standards really affect men in negative ways whether they are like beauty standards or the like expectation that men are supposed to be providers um or whatever it is and how things that we tend to assume only affect women like beauty standards that is not the case like all these men are are affected by like western standards of beauty yeah so that's like kind of one of the big things for me with this movie i totally agree i mean i think that's like kind of one of the big things for me with this movie. I totally agree. I mean, I think that and like what especially I what I like, especially about this movie, and we will, you know, go through all the stuff that didn't age as well.

But the my favorite thing in the entire world is when which I think this movie does so like effortlessly for the most part is like addresses like important issues, but not in a way that is like tragedy porn or bashing you over the head with it. Like it's, it's both like presented honestly and realistically. And it's also just like funny. And I feel like that,

I don't know. Like I, it's just like the kinds of movies that I prefer to watch and also I think that it's like they were able to access such a wide audience by making that choice here where like I had no idea how small this movie was versus how successful it was. It was on a $3.5 million budget. And it made $258 million. In 1997. It's like absurd. How successful it was.

And I feel like. It's because of what you're describing. Of like the. Not many movies that have. There's a bajillion movies. That have a completely cis male cast. In terms of central characters, but almost none of them examine the pressures of masculinity. And I very much feel like we've talked about this before, like part of being a feminist is examining masculinity and the effects that it has on the people it's thrust upon. And also it's it focuses on the working class, which is like yet another layer that you don't get very much, especially in comedy that is like centered around the working class.

It's like, you know, so often the working class is being punched down at. They might appear in comedies as a punchline as a joke right but this is just like it's it's just very matter-of-factly like we're in a working class community that it has been you know like devastated in a way that many industrial towns have been um particularly in this like i did a little little history dive i was like oh this is like you know but that happens virtually everywhere. Like everyone knows of a place where this, I don't know, my hometown used to be shoe city. If you look at it, it used to be shoe city. And guess what? No more shoes now.

There's Brockton. There's a loan. There's a loan shoe company left in Brockton. If you want to, uh, you know, go online to to i think it's called foot joy get some shoes from foot joy it's the last day but there used to be five trillion shoe factories in brockton but anyways this is a very common thing in you know in working class neighborhoods and but you so rarely see working class people centered in movies and it's like watching specifically working class men struggle with the pressures of masculinity on like all these different levels it's it's so unique and I it's I don't know like there's places where I'm like oh I wish they had gone further I wish that this character had more of a complete arc. But I feel like even now, it's like I can't really, there's not many movies that do this.

I feel like there is like a lot of good examination of like working class issues in TV, but I don't think as much in movies. Yeah, I think that is really cool and like you said it um these men are dealing with these pressures of toxic masculinity and acting in ways in some cases that were like i wish you wouldn't use that homophobic slur and i wish you wouldn't like catcall women who are like walking down the street and rating them on their you for instance yeah so you know they're they're products of their environment certainly but yeah i think the movie does especially for like a movie in the 90s does like a pretty good job of exploring those standards and those pressures without like you said being very preachy and like bashing you over the head with it it just sort of like it presents a thing could there have been

more commentary maybe sure but like any any movie could go further but but it tackles a lot but doesn't necessarily go super far with any of it but it's also not like you know it's mostly there to be a romp yeah which i appreciate i mean it's like it's a romp that touches on a number of issues surrounding toxic masculinity without with like kind of so seamlessly it's like yeah i'll take it i also really appreciate it for in the casting of this movie that they cast character act they cast like people who look like people and not like rigid because I feel like that you know even sometimes when we do get movies about about everyday people they still look like movie stars who have the highest like you know it without body shaming movie stars I guess like you know it's clear when

you have the money to look like a movie star versus not right and I just yeah I always appreciate when like it's a cast of of working class everyday people and it isn't like Noahentineo as like you know what i mean right it's like oh the movie is telling us that this is a working class person but this actor clearly has a personal trainer that they spend like an hour or more a day with they clearly spend like i don't know fifty dollars a day on smoothies and like whatever green drinks that rich people drink. This is a class war issue. What is this? It's just like, and we're so conditioned to just boop through that cognitive dissonance. Just like when you watch like a whatever, like a teen soap, you're like, oh yeah, you know, teenagers are actually 28 years old like right it's just a

dissonant thing that exists in culture but but when it actually isn't like that and you get a cast of like people who look like people you know it's like it's I feel like we talked about this in eighth grade which is this is maybe way off topic but just like how startling it is when you see a teenager playing and looking like a teenager because you're so used to seeing 40 year old as teenagers you know yeah i feel like at 35 which i will be in a few days on my birthday i will just be aging out of being able to play a teenager caitlin i feel like you could very much still get cast as like she's like she's a senior and i'm so scared of her thank you so much yeah of course uh i guess should we get into like individual characters and sort of like because each character has like a pretty specific like subplot that they are something that they're dealing with.

Should we start with our protagonist Gaz? Let's do it. Oh, Gaz. We need to talk. So, I mean, as far as like positives, because there are there are some there are yeah i really appreciate that you have an example of a man who like loves being a dad he loves his son more than anything in the world he will go to great lengths he wants his son to think he's cool so bad yes and i feel like that's not a super common thing in media to see for like a blue color

working class man who like loves being a dad and is who is like very attentive to his son and who very openly shows affection toward his son that doesn't mean that he also doesn't sometimes put his son in situations that are inappropriate sure which he definitely does a lot yeah but i like i'm always just kind of so struck with when I when I watch like the relationship between Gaz and Nathan. And while ultimately is this a movie about fathers and sons? It always is. Yes, it always is. But I like don't even mind because I'm just like I. It works here.

Yeah, it works. Yeah, it's it feels earned despite his questionable parenting choices yeah that he makes sometimes i still really love that representation of fatherhood i agree yeah it's it's it's so tricky because it's like you know it's part of it is like well if gaz was being a completely responsible parent the movie probably wouldn't even happen the way that it does. Yes. Because you wouldn't bring your underage child to, uh,

like strip, like where you're going to be completely naked, which is like, that feels intuitive. Um, that said, I mean, it's,

and this isn't to excuse the behavior, but I do think it's like especially in movies where there are parents i feel like sometimes kids are written out of the plot when it doesn't serve the plot but it is like you know that's a very normal especially because we know the financial circumstance that uh that gaz is in that it would make I mean it's like can he afford child care of course not like he's gonna have to have Nath with him wherever he is and that is like I don't know one of one of the plot points with with Gaz that really hit for me is is the the custody issue and I kind of I appreciated that the custody issue at least the way I was watching it and I'm always

like if I had my 1997 goggles on I don't know I don't know you know but I felt like very often and again I guess to go back to the Santa Claus of course mothers seeking custody of their children are often portrayed as being unreasonable as being shrill as being you know like unfair essentially as like taking something but the way that this custody situation is presented I thought was like pretty thoughtful on both ends where like I don't know I how did you I didn't feel like mandy was really demonized and i understood her frustration and i understood her concern like for sure and then you also see completely why like gaz is so frustrated with the situation and it is it's it is like they're being presented with this impossible situation by poverty and it just it and and

it's presented very like matter of fact and I mean it makes me sad because it's just like something that happens um in in poor families where it's like yeah I understand why um why Mandy is like this is not a you know responsible way for my son to be spending his time and then you also are like well Gaz can't afford to do much else at this time and does that mean that he should have his son taken away from him and you know just all this shit that they're like really complicated issues that could have been really you know melodramatically harped upon that are presented in a way that i felt was like empathetic and also not i don't know i don't know maybe it was like too light-hearted but i i thought it was pretty well

done and also just like and this is like a i guess a through line of this movie of like all the all the all the men in the full Monty group is that the name of their group is it called the full Monty I don't think they gave themselves a name oh no it's hot metal when they're um when they put up the posters advertising their show they call themselves hot metal I'm to get you a poster like that for your house. Oh my gosh, please. Tonight, Hot Metal. But the way that, like, and this is, and, you know, everyone who has read, you know, leftist theory is going to be like, I'm presenting this in the most goofy, simplistic way possible but basically like all these men are dealing with the failure of industry and the failure of social safety nets and the like these structural failures and because of the effect that

toxic masculinity has on them they're interpreting it as personal failures right and i think that this affects like almost every man in this group and you see it affect them in different ways but it is like it's so sad and frustrating to see for Gaz that he he is both really doing everything he can to like get through and be able to keep custody of his son and be able to support himself financially but he's being put in this impossible situation. And also, because of all the messaging that you know, everybody gets is made to feel like he is like failed as a provider as well. And so it's it's just I don't know. Yeah, it's so it's so complicated, but it's not presented like that. I just think it's really cool. I don't know. Yeah, I will say that when I watched this movie when I was younger, like when I was a teenager,

I feel like I did maybe think that his ex-wife Mandy was kind of presented sort of as like your kind of typical like mother shrew character, especially because in every scene she's in, she and Gaz are arguing over Nathan yeah but re-watching it like through this lens I fully like saw where she was coming from right and I was like well of course she's constantly arguing with him it's because he's like again making questionable parental decisions he's also i would argue that he's not necessarily doing everything he can to like well no okay child support because he's also she offers him a job there are jobs available but there he like kind of i think he might see him like certain work to be below him because he's always like, no, I don't want this job.

No, I'm not going to be a security guard. So he's refusing opportunities for work, which I found to be frustrating. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I also felt like he didn't want to work under her because he has a lot of, I mean, I feel like the main thing with Gaz for me is is the uh the bringing your kids places your kids shouldn't be and misogyny um are are two not the only things but like two big things where like clearly this guy has some issues with women and it seems like he does not want it seems like he is and I guess yeah it's like i'm watching it with my 2021 goggles on where i'm like yeah like it seems like he doesn't want to work beneath mandy and that like that to him is

like i would rather like hatch a scheme than work beneath someone but it's also like it's i i i don't know it's it's such a tricky area where it's like you know should he be forced to take a job that he doesn't want to take like that doesn't seem reasonable either but he's just like everyone's being put in an impossible situation but yeah i definitely interpreted the like her i'm also like 250 an hour uh even in 1997 like what but it was pounds it was but it was right yeah i'm like what would that have converted to in late 90s money yeah and it's like yeah i mean a lot of people who grew up in working class circumstances is like their parents to support them took jobs that they did not were not passionate about and certainly felt were below their skill set and below what they

wanted to do and sometimes you know i don't know we're not parents that said i did i yeah i was also frustrated by him you know scheme over uh gary like it's it's he's he's a self-sabotager like he's a major self-sabotager in that it's like you know if if this movie took place in the real world and nobody came to that show he would simply lose custody of his son like right it would blow up in his face royally i don't know and then i mean like you mentioned he does pretty clearly have some issues with misogyny that i like to think that he starts to work through after this show and that he grows as a person but there's like that whole scene when they're at the job club and he's talking about how, oh, like men are obsolete. And I feel like that's like a reflection of this idea that as soon as women, if there's any kind of like women's liberation, men interpret that as like, well, well, if women are free and have rights and can have jobs and stuff then men won't even need to exist and

they feel like very threatened from me yeah it is so like boomer mentality yeah yeah so that's like very clearly what gaz is talking about in this scene to me where he's like well gee whiz and then there's also that like funny slash bizarre thing where they're like talking about that woman who they saw peeing while she was standing up. And they were like, how? How could that even happen? And then some random guys like genetic mutations, they're turning into us. then they're like yeah we're we're going extinct we're only gonna be in like a zoo again it's like that sort of thing where i'm just like i i i'm putting my i'm trying to put on 1997 goggles and i just don't have access to them i'm like how was what was this

joke supposed to be about when it came out because maybe it's like but i i thought that that scene was like kind it was fun in that i felt like and again maybe i'm giving the movie more credit than it deserves like that it was they were supposed to look kind of desperate and ridiculous in the way that they were talking about women where it was like i don't know like it's just it's not all of but you know a lot of misogyny is like men being insecure about themselves and then weaponizing it against someone that they think is an easy target. And like the way that they talk about women in terms of like women who are

working while they're not, it's like, well, what a huge insult. And it's like, we, we just need to think a little bigger guys. We need to think a little bigger guys we need to think a little bigger it's not there it's not them yeah um yeah um why don't we take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

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Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Is there anything else we want to say regarding Gaz um gaz well i think gaz he's just it's for our protagonist he i feel like embodies a lot of toxic male

like i feel like more so than any other character really except for maybe gerald uh but like gaz has a lot like he has the misogyny he makes homophobic comments about the chippendales at first uh he you know fat shames dave at times like he he is extremely rigid and binary in the way that he thinks which it's like we can pretty reasonably say product of his environment. But also it's like there are men in this same environment that seem to have more open minds and are kind of on a more productive path. So Gaz isn't my favorite,

but I respect his journey. I'm glad he didn't lose custody of his son. Also, what do you think about gaz taking money from nath i feel like that's another complicated thing where it's like it has to happen plot wise uh but like there had like especially when he could have just worked for mandy for a couple of days and gotten the same amount of money over taking it from his son's savings account i don't know i like especially that young like i i don't know it's like i the way money moves within working class families is definitely complicated but i'm

like taking your whatever 10 year old only money, Gaz? Really? Really? I don't like it. He's perhaps also too quick to be like, okay, I'll take your money. He barely needs to be won. But yeah, what I'll say there is that I hope he pays it back immediately after doing this show with like a hundred percent interest yeah i feel like he will too like he loves he loves nath right but i'm like god you're putting nath between a rock and a hard place here guys my god i also think that nathan will help to rid gaz of some of his misogyny.

And I say this because there's a scene in the very beginning where Gaz sees a woman, rates her on like a one to ten scale, says a bunch of really sexist stuff. He's like, well, she's a nine, maybe even a nine. You never can tell until you see their tits. And we're like gas um and while he's saying this nathan's like dad like in a very like protest-y way and i i hope that as nathan gets older he sits his dad down and says dad you shouldn't be objectifying women like that. You should not be valuing a woman based on how attractive you perceive her to be, etc. I agree.

Yeah, I thought that like Nathan being embarrassed by his dad's misogyny hopefully means that down the road. Also, I'm like, is Nathan their manager now? Like what happens now? I don't know. He seems to be kind of, I mean, he's clearly, he's their manager now? Like, what happens now? I don't know. He seems to be kind of, I mean, he's clearly, he's an investor. That much is for sure. He's an early investor in the group. Who knows?

He's wearing many hats. Yeah. He's, you know, a complex character. Shout out to Nathan. You know, what a sweetheart. What a sweet kid. And a pretty good child actor pretty good yeah his name is William Snape which I was like huh that sounds like a fake name uh

right because then you're like oh wait I guess Harry Potter that name isn't a fake name which is what I always thought when I read I thought It sounds like snake. Probably. Turns out it's a real last name. Water under the bridge at this point. Where shall we go from here? What about Dave? Dave. Dave's

journey is unique and I feel like not just unique in this group, but unique for talking about masculinity and body standards at all in 1997. Yes. So the thing that he is predominantly dealing with in this movie is that he feels a lot of shame about being fat, probably because his peers constantly fat shame him. Yeah, and he also mentions, I thought it was a useful context that it's like, this is something that has been his whole life. He's been made fun of for this.

And it's clearly just his body type, because he's like, I haven't changed anything. It's just who I am. But like people will not leave him alone about it. Yeah. Right. And then it's at least suggested in the movie that this shame he is feeling is manifesting as like this sexual dry spell with his wife because he's experiencing impotency issues he's uh seems to be unable to get an erection uh and it's uh affecting his sex life with his wife the fact that this is even like

talked about at all in in a movie in the 90s is like kind of groundbreaking but yeah and I felt as though that was all dealt with pretty responsibly yeah yeah and I think like in making it clear that all of this is happening in response to you know just how others are perceiving his body and it's like that moment at the end with his his wife um but where it's like i don't know i don't know i mean there was so so much about that scene that i thought was really sweet and well thought out of just you know she she loves him and she's attracted to him and she loves his body and just hearing that sometimes is like i don't know it's like i feel like and this is a generalization but a lot of men straight men particularly don't always know how to like ask for what they need or there is like there's on top of

like shame attached to your body which is you know affects people of all genders like there is like this i don't know i feel like there there's this kind of general like you can't admit weakness you you know you can't discuss shame with your partner when it's so clearly like it's one conversation that like totally sets him free and like clearly i mean it doesn't solve the problem right away but it's it's just so so simple and so nice and but but it you totally understand why he's going through this journey the way he is because it's just like shame on top of shame on top of shame on top of shame and it's all connected to this like toxicity around men and and around the way that people like police each other's bodies totally there are a couple scenes in the movie where they're hanging

out at gerald's house and in one of them dave is kind of expressing his insecurity about like not wanting to show his naked body in front of a bunch of people and gerald kind of dismisses him and says fat david is a feminist issue and he's like what's that supposed to mean when it's at home and yeah so like even when he does try to open up and talk about it he's like it's being dismissed and because like gerald holds this toxic viewpoint of like well being fat is something that's like only women are concerned about or only women should be concerned about and like this it should you know it shouldn't affect you but obviously like body and beauty standards affect everyone who has a body, which is everyone.

So, yeah, so he's not being taken seriously. And then there's a later scene where they're looking at, like, a porn magazine. And Lomper is like, oh, oh well her tits are too big and Dave's like well I hope they're not going to be looking at us like that I hope the the women in the audience are more understanding King Dave comes through and then they're like well well, why would they be judging our bodies? And he's just like, well, you know, why not? He's just commenting on her breast size. And Lomper's like, well, it's different. We're blokes. But well, I guess, I mean, yes, the standards of beauty do tend to be a bit harsher and more rigid for women. But men and people of all genders are subjected to specific

and often rigid beauty standards yeah i i thought that that story you know it played out pretty well and it's like and and the fact that it's like having that conversation with his his wife um but having that conversation with her like and communicating and acknowledging where you feel vulnerable which again not what straight men are generally known for is able to like kind of unlock this confidence in himself and and acceptance and like enjoying being in his own skin it's so simple and so nice and i just yeah i i really enjoyed it and there's also there's a quote i want to pull from friend of the cast janna schmieding who uh gave an interview recently that i don't know it just timed out well I watched this

movie last night this interview came out this morning so Janice says quote oh sorry let me actually lead in with the quote in in Schmieding's estimation we can only really celebrate body positivity when quote we create equity and access for fat people in all aspects of our lives the term body positivity yes it is about celebrating our existence and celebrating our bodies but it's nearly impossible to do that when every system and structure around us is built and created to exclude fat people and to essentially vilify and oppress fat individuals and fatness as a concept we need to get to a place where fatness is normalized widely and people have access to medical care

and all of the same social norms that non-fat people have access to, unquote. Which is, you know, I don't think that this movie goes all the way, but I think that in terms of just even having that discussion in 1997, in a kind of, I mean, I feel like part of this movie's strength is that everyone in this group is kind of clueless and they're all kind of like coming to most of these issues with like uh I don't know and like learning from each other through trial and error and it's just like I don't know it's cool it's as as uncomfortable as it is at times it's cool to watch them work through it yeah because like yeah it wouldn't be super realistic

if all of these men in 1997 were like super woke and like knew all the stuff and just like we're it wouldn't make sense in 2021 like it's like right it I do I do like and I hope that that kind of I would like to see I guess more of that of like people learning on screen and like shedding the shit mentality and not coming in a fully formed, you know, being because like no one does. And yeah, it's, it's just like super interesting. Cause it's like, yeah,

I mean guys in that group are fucking up in terms of like, they're dismissing Dave's concerns. They're telling him it's not a thing. And then they realize over time that, oh, it very much is a thing. And it's affecting my friend who I love. Yeah.

Yeah. Dave does not display as much misogyny as Gaz does. But there is one part of the movie when they're watching Flashdance and Dave is commenting on the main character's welding abilities. So ridiculous. And Gaz. And they're like, you don't know how to well. Yeah. Guys is like, what the fuck do you know about welding? And Dave says, I know more than some chuffing woman, which chuffing I'm guessing is like fucking. I don't like I don't.

God damn. I don't. Yeah. Correct us if we're wrong. Yeah. Yeah. You know. god damn i don't yeah correct us if we're wrong yeah yeah you know so he doesn't uh think that women can weld rude i think that really what dave is more guilty of is uh letting things slide when other men around him say fucked up stuff because it's like i mean nathan is doing more to push up against gaz's casual misogyny than dave is and nathan's like 10 yeah uh so that's not great yeah because it's like anytime like i feel like and you

see this like i don't know like i've i've seen this interaction where it's like someone says something really casually fucked up and then the other person's like, oh, come on. Like, and then they just never talk about it. That is, that seems like Dave's MO is like, well, I'm not going to say it myself, but I'm never going to point out when someone's being, you know, bigoted, unfair, misogynist, etc.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Should we talk about Gerald? Yeah yeah let's talk about gerald so his situation is that he is ashamed at having lost his job he cannot be the provider anymore he is unable to admit this to his wife because of all the shame he feels, which again goes back to that kind of toxic standard of masculinity where men are expected to be the providers. And if they can't do that, then they don't really know. Yeah, they're a failure. They don't know what their worth is and stuff like that so um yeah i thought that was a very interesting thing to explore there are there's like at least one scene where even gaz is like why can't you just tell your wife and gerald's like well it's been six

months now like how can i tell her now i've let it go on for way too long and and part of it is like also this just not being able to be like open and forthcoming to your with your romantic partner and it's it's so like and it's it seems to be like in dave and gerald's case wives that they love very much it makes me sad yeah and what I really loved is his wife's response when she does find out and I don't I feel like you do learn her name but I he mentions it a few times but it's the dialogue in this movie was so tough for me she does have a name I don't remember what it was off the top of my head. Linda, I think is her name. Yes. Okay. So she finds out because people come into her home and start repossessing things. And Gerald comes home while this is happening. And she's like, how long has this been going on? He's like, about six months. And she's like, all right, well,

you know, I can deal with losing the sunbed, the car, whatever like material possessions she lists off. She's like, I can even deal with the shame of everyone watching this. But six months and you couldn't even tell me your wife. pretty major subversion for like for sure the wife character of just like being upset about like losing these like luxury items and stuff like that she's like i don't even care about that i only care that you you weren't honest with me and you weren't open with me and you didn't tell me that this was something that was happening especially because like she's sort of set up to seem kind of like materialistic because she's like let's go like let's spend all this money I want to go on like a ski trip and right stuff like that

but then she's like I don't actually care about that I just wanted you to be honest with me I yeah I I really liked that too because I honestly was like the way that they were setting her up where they were like, you know, she's kind of this I mean, they're, you know, their vibe is like upper middle class assholes. But yeah, it's like that. That is a cool subversion where it's and again, it's I feel like, you know, in the same way that I'm like i totally understand why mandy is so frustrated with gaz you can also see why linda is so hurt by this because and and also and and again we're both sides of this conflict like they're just both prisoners to this like his toxic masculinity that he's been taking in his whole life. And it's affecting everyone so negatively. Ugh, it makes me, and it's hard to not feel for Gerald in a way too,

where it's like, yeah, you're being an absolute fool about how you're dealing with this top to bottom. Talk to your wife. But like that concept of, yeah, just being defined by your ability to provide and not being able to provide connected to just like complete emasculation. Yeah. In a way that I'm just, I mean, like every movie, I'm like, you know, therapy, therapy would fix would fix a lot of these issues. Another movie where all of these characters need to be in therapy. Including Nathan.

Yes. But yeah, I liked, that's right. And also just like them, you know, Gerald being like, well, you know, she's used to a standard of living. And I don't want to ask her to have to compromise, which I don't know. That was just giving me like major 08 recession vibes. You know, like he would rather go into debt than admit that his financial status has changed right like he would rather sever the most important relationship in his life than admit that you know a situation out of his control right is affecting his family and it's like come on man but you also understand where it all comes from right it's not happening in a vacuum vacuum gerald it also makes you wonder how does linda not know that the factory closed down six

months ago like wouldn't that have been like in the newspaper wouldn't people be talking about it i had that question also but i'm like maybe he was like just like oh i'm working somewhere else dot dot dot right does she think he got a different job? I know. I was just like, I wish that had been clarified because otherwise it just makes her seem like completely oblivious. Right. Because I'm like, well, where were you for the last six months, Linda?

The other thing with Gerald is that we learn a bit later on in the movie that he's experiencing a situation where he gets unexpected erections i don't know what the medical term for this is i can't help and this is something that he like confides in to dave but because dave he's experiencing impotency yeah they're not seeing eye to eye on it he's like I you're talking to the wrong man yeah right um so he also he kind of dismisses Gerald after Gerald had dismissed Dave for like being insecure about his weight and then the other members of the group I guess he confides in them or they find out about it in some way. And they're like, it's this thing where they're like trying to be supportive because they're like, oh, well, what if like think about boring things and then you like won't get interaction.

But then they also tease him about it. And I don't know how to feel about that because I was like, oh, well, they shouldn't be teasing him. But this is how i don't know like i i mean that's like that's a another through line that this movie touches on i think with four different characters where it's like some sort of self-definition by if not your penis's size, what your penis is doing in its spare time, leisure hours, et cetera. And it's honestly like I know that it's imperfectly done. I don't feel qualified to get even like incredibly specific with how.

But I do. Yeah. specific with how um but but i do yeah it's i i kind of wonder i i for uh for our listeners uh that have some insight here i guess it's like i i viewed the way that not in all situations but in some situations it's like these men can only communicate by like sort of making a joke out of everything and like they clearly it's really hard for them to have a straight discussion because as we see from how all their relationships are they cannot communicate with anybody until it's like an absolute breaking point like they their life has to be almost destroyed before they'll communicate right and so i sort of viewed that as like an extension of that of like they're teasing each other instead of talking about it but through teasing each other they're trying to talk about it but it's not real like it's a very imperfect approach i don't know right being real real straight guys some of them and then that might bring us to lomper and or guy

so lomper is i think like the third character to join the group uh he's the one who they stop like an active suicide attempt um the aftermath of that is again like a very like they're joking with him about the like the other ways that he could have attempted suicide yeah yeah which is which is like i i don't know i i don't hate the way it's written they're trying to talk him down they also clearly have no idea how to talk about this. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And then it ends with him saying like, well, I don't have any friends. And they're like, well, how could you tell us that we're not your friends? You know, we just saved your life. And he's like, really? That little smile where he's like, oh, oh, I know. It's very sweet. it's very sweet yeah and then and then a little

bit later i don't know if you caught this but gaz is saying he's like yeah i roped him into the group because this could be good therapy for him yes yes that was very sweet. And it's like, well, you know, real therapy would be good therapy for him. But if that's not available. But we also, it's like, we're, you know, in a very low income area. It's very likely that that would not be made available on top of the stigma. Right. Although they're in England, so maybe they do have more access to things. I don't really know.

I don't really know. I don't really know. English listeners, help us out here. Yeah. And then for Lomper, it's revealed that he is gay or queer. He's attracted to men, which Guy also is, because they have that moment when they're like running away from the dress rehearsal and they are like very close and they're face to face and they have their vibing you're like let's have three movies of this right more of this thing the only other thing the only other thing, the only other part of this very minimal storyline is a few scenes later when Lomper's mother has passed away and they're at her funeral and we see a very tiny glimpse of the two of them holding hands, which then Gaz and Dave notice and comment on. And it's, you know, they're just kind of surprised and it's unexpected for them.

And then Dave says a very like Northern England expression. There's not as queer as folk. I was like. Which doesn't specifically, is not specifically about queer people. It's just means like there's nothing as strange as people. But then he like kind of realizes the double entendre of what he said and then they start laughing and they're cracking up at the funeral at the funeral right so i guess my main thing here is that i just really

would have liked to see more of this storyline it gets so breezed past and we don't really learn anything about them as a couple, except for just the very those two tiny little glimpses. and unfortunately kind of like best case scenario 1997 where the fact that they are interested in each other and that they like seem to be at the beginning of a relationship um is presented in a very you know pretty matter-of-fact way but it's so brief and it's like you know that if this were a hetero relationship that it would all of a sudden take over the entire plot in the way that hetero hetero relationships uh that you barely know anything about consume the plot entirely in in many movies it's you know we're kind of going for scraps here i do appreciate that it passed queer coding and you you know, explicitly were like, these are queer characters.

But it, like, I don't know. Like, I feel like of all the issues that are, like, referenced, but only, like, in a very surface scratchy sort of way, this was one of the big ones. For sure. But that said, what is there, I think is very sweet. And I'm rooting for them. i'm rooting for them i'm rooting for them too but yeah the movie spends more screen time on dave and gaz's reaction to learning this information than it does on the relationship itself which i guess like and again

this is extremely bare minimum for them to for gaz to have said homophobic things prior to that, but generally seem to be accepting of this relationship is like, again, bare minimum. But this is yeah, I mean, it does seem like this whole movie to an extent is a journey of bare minimum acceptance narratives where it's like oh i'm not going to mock my friend's body anymore i'm not going to make casually homophobic comments about whomever like i'm not going to assume the worst and and like objectify every woman who walks into my path like it's like the bar is on the floor right but yeah i mean but you're totally right it's like harping on the reaction versus like there's just there's room there was and i'm not even asking for you know this relationship to take over the movie that wouldn't make sense but it's like can we have a scene with the two of them yeah can we have a

scene with the two of them especially because according to our favorite scholarly journal wikipedia the original cut of the movie came in under 90 minutes so they went back and reshot like shot some new scenes like new scenes were like written into the movie for example the the scene where they're like doing an exercise montage and then they're like playing soccer that was shot later well that makes sense and gas really long and i didn't know why i was there yeah it is it's unnecessary and if you notice robert carlisle is not in that scene those scenes because he was like filming other stuff because this was after like principal photography on this movie and he wasn't available so that's double frustrating so there was like there was room explicitly room for this relationship

to be explored further and the choice was simply made to not annoying i don't like wow now that i know that i'm triple annoyed yeah i but i like what's there but but it's barely there it's barely there and it's you know it kind of added in towards the end and then you see it referenced in two scenes and then it's you know we we spend and i'm not even saying it's a bad thing that we spend a lot of time with dave and his wife and we spend a lot of time with gaz and Mandy but it's like let's uh spread the love around movie come on and then the final character is horse horse to discuss so the thing that he is dealing with is that he is insecure about his penis size which again is another just sort of byproduct of the patriarchal society that we live in this toxic standard of masculinity we talked about this on a recent episode on bedazzled of all movies

about society's obsession with penis size and penis function i suppose yeah society is obsessed with penises and it's like yes we we as a society must grow up on this really it's hurting people it is yeah because there's this idea that you know you should measure a person's masculinity based on how big their penis is and how it works. And it's like it's very common still today to shame a person for having a small penis or shame someone who's experiencing impotency or premature ejaculation or any number of things. And four different characters in this movie, their subplot, or at least part of their subplot, has something to do with something relating to their penis. Yeah. Which I feel like for the most part,

this movie handles pretty well. Like just that it gets explored at all, that these men feel this pressure to have a penis that like aligns with society's expectations and they feel the best sentence i've ever said um you know it starts to explore these, like, you know, toxic standards. And granted, it doesn't dive very far into them. I think where the movie kind of fails here is that the character Guy, who I would argue we know the least about of all of these people. Yeah, all we know is that he is the lunchbox and that he redid Gerald's bathroom.

I think that's all we know. And he gets brought into the group strictly based on the fact that he has a large penis. Right. So they are valuing him. They think that he has something to bring to the table based on his penis size. Right. And they're not doing that in a vacuum. But that said, like, it vacuum but that said like it's

you know it's a it's a loaded decision yes and then i'm kind of curious about horse being the character so he's insecure about what he perceives to be his small penis. He's also the only black character. And because there is a popular stereotype that black men have large penises, which, of course, is a very toxic stereotype because it's historically been used to over-sexualize black men and to, like, accuse them of being sexually aggressive. Right. So the movie subverts

this stereotype and it also kind of makes me wonder like does horse feel the pressure to have a bigger penis based on this stereotype and it barely requires saying but all of these stereotypes are completely erroneous and they're and they're also you know in horse's case clearly having an effect on his self-esteem based on these complete lies that are being you know forced upon him and it's kind of made a joke of in this movie not in a way that i feel like is aggressively punching down but i do think that there was like a little more room just in in the way that there is more room to explore his character in general there was more room to kind of directly interrogate that stereotype you know where it's like referenced but it's

almost referenced as a given rather than making it clear that like, and this is total bullshit, you know? Right. There's nothing. There's like no explicit indication that that is what's being referenced. It's just sort of like the movie just sort of treats that as like, this is probably common knowledge. It's a very wink wink way of addressing it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in a movie that I think does a lot well, that is like a stereotype that is referenced without being interrogated or explored in any way and it just feels like a kind of a a clearly missed opportunity for sure yeah but because of how this story is set up

there's no one but white guys around to talk to um the fact that we are having this conversation at all about like the ambiguity of it makes it clear that the the topic was not you know made clear enough or adequately explored and it's yeah i i it's i i really like horse's character and but he's you know he's the only person of color in this group at all he's certainly the only black man in this group we see his family in that really funny scene where like horses horses family they really um they're they're very supportive of his endeavors and they show up and but we don't get to talk to them we don't get to know who they are like they're the only black women in the movie and they don't say anything and we don't get to talk to them. We don't get to know who they are. They're the only black women in the movie, and they don't say anything.

And we don't know who they are. I feel like this is a really, we've talked about this a bajillion times, particularly with 90s movies. But it is a very persistent trope of the only person of color you don't know that much uh about their background or their home life like yeah in the way that and and and i get that it's like you know we we don't see the lunch boxes home life uh but but i do think that that it's like again because we fully know that there is room to build out each and every one of these characters, we've got the time. I think it kind of sticks out that Horse's home life and his character isn't more fully fleshed out and we don't get to explore it more i was like really disappointed not surprised with the fact that our only black character we we he has an arc he you know it's not like he has no story he definitely does and it's you know comparable to the stories that the other men are going through

where he's like you know going you know navigating this um these toxic expectations and coming out on the other side more confident and more satisfied with himself but you don't get the the home aspect of it which i think you get for every character except for horse and what is his actual name guy literally his name's guy which is why i keep i'm like because i keep wanting to say that guy but it's because his name is guy um horse and guy you don't get that background and i i just feel like it would be you know it would benefit both of those characters but particularly horse to to more fully explore what their background is where they're coming from yeah you know it's like the four men we have the home lives of four white guys you know no problem um so it feels it feels pointed and it feels just like his character is you know under underwritten in a way that you know for me i'm like it doesn't it makes no sense um and also

Paul Barber is such a fun character actor and I just would have liked to like see him more like he's just yeah he's just fun he's so funny oh this movie's so funny I love it it is I know it's so it's yeah I mean and and I wish I wish that that his story was just more fully explored, because the fact that we have this little to talk about is like, well, yeah. Yeah, it's telling. Yes. Do you have any other thoughts about the film um i don't really think so i think just in terms of um you know it i guess it will not really uh shock anybody to know that it's all you know white men top to bottom in terms of production uh i guess if it's actually there there is a female composer, Ann Dudley, who was nominated for an Academy Award for the score, which is interesting because I feel like it's a jukebox movie.

But she got nominated for her score, which I don't remember. Yeah, it's a lot of the soundtrack. Well, first of all, the soundtrack is incredible. There is some original score that is really good. And I believe if I'm not mistaken, she won the Academy Award. Did she win? For it? Yeah, won for best original musical or comedy score. Wait, okay. I think this is a different category that I'm not sure actually still exists anymore for the Academy Awards. Not sure. But either way, shout out, Ann Dudley. Shout out, Ann Dudley. So there was, you know, a win there. But like this movie was just,

I don't know, I think it like, ultimately, it speaks to like, this movie is taking a really funny, interesting way of exploring really commonly explored topics that clearly people wanted to see discussed in a movie because it was so ridiculously successful. It was the highest grossing film in the UK until it was outperformed by Titanic. Ooh, feels good. So it would have only been the highest grossing movie in the uk for a few months because titanic came out a few months later look i hope they enjoyed their brief but significant reign over the uk box office it's such a fun movie like it's yeah if you haven't seen this movie you really do yourself

a favor it's a blast yeah it really is and it's about i mean we didn't talk too much about this but like any movie that's about like that explores and i don't know well we've talked about some of the ways in which these friendships are maybe not the most healthy. But I think for the most part, especially by like it's the male friendships that are being explored in this movie are just really sweet. And I really like them. And they clearly need it. I do think that this is like a great example of like the realism is it's, you know, no one is in this space of what a couple of weeks going to go from being entrenched in 35 years of toxic masculinity to being like, now all my male friends and I are talking about our insecurities every day. Like, right. But you see the seeds of it you see and it

is I mean we've talked yeah like we've talked about this on the show before of just like not really an emphasis on like healthy friendships between men it's just not something that's emphasized in I mean in society but also in movies when and and and you see kind of the repercussions of that through like repression and pushing stuff down and not communicating how you're feeling and then you see you know like through their friendships they start to feel some relief they start to see other perspectives they start to realize they're not alone and their insecurities and their worries that they thought were just so unique to them it's beautiful they're all it's real this movie is really nice i like it so much they help set each

other free because they learn to be more open and honest i love when the boys set each other free it's so there's this is you know we're we're we're not in the business of endorsing uh entirely where i'm not in the business of endorsing seven or six six or seven men on a poster ordinarily but this movie really is an exception to the rule it's true it's great does it pass the bechdel test i do not believe so they're only seen where women interact with each other is that bathroom scene toward the beginning Jean and her two friends they either talk about Dave or this guy named Frank most of the time yeah there's like a couple stray exchanges that like technically would pass except that we don't learn the friends names i do not believe yeah and they're also not

characters who ever show up again so sigh i would say that that's not a pass that'd be a no as far as our nipple scale in which we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism so while this is a story that centers men and where women are like the side like his wife characters or his ex-wife characters um even so because this is a movie that by and large explores what toxic standards of masculinity do to men, how they affect men negatively, and how the men are, once they sort of start to set them, like to try to cast those standards aside and like set themselves free of those standards,

do they become happier and more successful yes and people are celebrating them too like at the end i don't think we mentioned this yet but yeah like at the end to like see the the boys all like comfortable in their own bodies and their whole families are like yes my confident family member like is it oh you know if you put yourself in the position of like looking at i don't know i'm like would i want to see my dad in this kind of show no but i appreciate the sentiment uh yeah horses family i think they're there right at the end. They're there. I imagine they're covering their eyes whenever or they're just like not looking in horses direction.

Also Nathan is there. Nathan probably shouldn't. Nathan really just shouldn't be there. Around for most of this movie. But but with all that in mind. Yeah. um but but with all that in mind um yeah it's a story about men who are products of their environment who feel emasculated because of the circumstances and because of this patriarchal society that they live in that start to learn to embrace other standards and to embrace healthier options yeah so because of that i'm going to give this movie this is too high okay i'm gonna give it three nipples i was gonna do that as well i think that's completely reasonable and it's your birthday so it's my birthday and i love

this movie so i can do whatever i want damn good movie a damn good movie. It's so good. It's so funny. It really is. And while the characters do say some regressive things that are homophobic and misogynist, I feel like there's a difference between the characters being that way and the movie also subscribing to that ideology where a lot of movies especially from this era the jokes that are being made by the movie are like punching down i don't feel like that movie is doing this the movie isn't no down no i think they're supposed to look ridiculous when they say these things and and and wrong i hope yeah but yeah at least that's how I view it. And especially because so much of comedy from this era and most of like comedy movies from every decade were so reliant on punching down and making jokes that were homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, ableist, you name it. This movie avoids that for the most part.

And I appreciate that so yeah three nipples i'll give one to horse's family hell yeah i will give one to mandy who i have more of an appreciation for than i did as a younger person and I'll give one nipple to the woman who pees on the wall while standing up incredible yeah I'll also go uh with with a three here I think that it is a very rare movie that is able to acknowledge toxic masculinity without endorsing it like that is such a difficult line to toe and i feel like it ordinarily fails pretty spectacularly but it doesn't here like i i like you're like you were saying it is i feel like that you understand it's interesting to see very flawed male characters presented with empathy but also not endorsing what their behaviors and clearly demonstrating

through the plot and through their arcs and through how their behaviors affect their relationships that this is not the way to live i just i it's so well written. It blows my mind. I was like, how did man, you know, I hand it you got to hand it to him every once in a while. I mean, I do think that the two characters that you neglect to create a meaningful home life and backstory for being your only black protagonist and one of your only queer characters is uh perhaps let's say a bit glaring when we are definitely focusing on the home lives of the straight white guys no problem that is just very 1997 and and um annoying especially because we know there's room for it um however i just think it is uh it

is a very well-crafted story about men working through their shit and also working through their shit uh together you know and and it and learning to communicate with each other with their partners with you know and and and how learning how to communicate even though it does not lift them out of poverty even though it does not solve these systemic problems it does give them more peace and it gives and it's like i don't know i like i like when stories and just in general when people ask themselves like are you know i don't know it's it's it doesn't end perfectly you know that this one show isn't going to you know lift them all out of solve solve an industrial unless it does but like you know there there is there all are all these things out of their

control and there are these things that are within their control. And it's they're just parsing that out throughout the movie. And it's just it's really cool to watch. Yes. Happy birthday, Caitlin. Thank you. I love you so much. I've got your gift. And I'm not going to I was like, I'm not going to give it to you on camera.

That would be very, you know, we need to have our interior life. Yeah. But but happy birthday you're the best thank you thank you i love you jamie i love you too well everyone and a happy birthday to you all um you know this stuff by now follow us on social media. Hey, for my birthday, here's what you can do, listeners. Give us a five-star nipple rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you are able to rate podcasts. It's a nice thing to do if you like the show.

If you don't like the show, keep it to yourself. It would be such a nice birthday gift if you gave the show if you don't like the show keep it to yourself it would be such a nice birthday gift if you gave me five nipples um if you've got five dollars you can put that toward a matreon subscription yeah always an option there's also merch at tpublic.com slash the Bechtel cast. And yeah, Jamie, now it's time for us to prepare for our live show in which... You'll see our butts. We don't know when it is and you might see our butts. Bye.

Bye-bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the

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