The Bechdel Cast - The Handmaiden with Soyoung Chon

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

After many twists and turns, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Soyoung Chon team up to analyze The Handmaiden. Here's an article about the historical context for The Handmaiden, "How Japan Took Control of Korea" - https://www.history.com/news/japan-colonization-korea(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow@BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Teddy Mellencamp. And Tamara Judge, better known as the Twats. Yep. You heard that right.

We're the hosts of Two Teas in a Pod. For all the housewife lovers out there, every week we break down every episode and give you our opinions. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble. Okay. Maybe a lot of trouble. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister? Or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hey, Jamie. Yes, Caitlin. I just wanted to say thank you so much for giving me a job as your handmaiden.

Oh, you're welcome. And I just want to let you know, I'm definitely not trying to trick you and steal your fortune or anything like that. Okay, well, I guess while we're on the topic, I wanted to let you know that I'm definitely not three steps ahead of you what with the trick and I'm tricking you based on your trick and your trick is actually a whole distraction and it doesn't matter because we're gonna fall in love at the end all the tricks cancel each other out and it's uh and we're gonna go on a boat I love that for us good for us yeah I'm, I'm going to seem like I've never been outside, but here's the twist.

I have been outside a couple times. Okay. At least. All right. Well, I love that we're learning so much about each other. We're in love. What can you do? Hello, and welcome to the Bechdelcast.

Perfect intro, as usual. Amazing we nailed it. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus and this is our podcast where we look at your favorite movies, your least favorite movies, movies that you don't know how to feel about using an intersectional feminist lens. And we use the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechdel test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test. And it has many versions and the one that we are using these days. And we also have been finessing this formula. We've been finessing our little twist on it for half a decade at this point.

It's true. The metric that we are using, the caveats, if you will, are that a movie has to have two characters of any marginalized gender who have names. They must speak to each other about something other than a man. And ideally, their conversation is meaningful, plot relevant, not just a throwaway exchange of dialogue. Or maybe it's, in the case of this movie, a deceitful exchange. I love a good deceitful exchange. You know what? It's allowed. It's allowed. And then something that we should bring up more often, but it's especially relevant for a movie like this, is that the test originally appearing in Alison Bechdel's Dex to Watch Out For in 1985, queer women would watch movies and pay attention to if the female characters in the movies they're

watching speak to each other. And if so, do they talk about things besides a man? Because if so, then Alison Bechdel's characters could ship them together and pretend that they were lesbians in the movie that they're watching. So that is the origins of the Bechdel test. Speaking to the piss poor representation of any queer people in movies at the time the comic was published back in 85. Right. And then for a movie like this, no shipping required because the characters do that for you. It's canon. Yes. So the movie that we're talking about today is The Handmaiden. And we have a guest joining us. She's a pal of ours. She's a cybersecurity engineer. It's Soyoung Chan. Hi. Hello. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. So we're interested in what is your relationship, your history, your general impression of The

Handmaiden? Yeah, I thought it was pretty wild from start to finish. These types of movies don't really come out that much from South Korea because Korea is a pretty conservative country still. So this was a big shock when it came out featuring two lesbian women. That never happens. But I thought it was overall really, really good, really new and groundbreaking for Korea. so that's what I thought it was pretty cool yeah oh I can't wait to talk about it more Jamie what about you uh I hadn't seen

this movie yet and it rocked my world I'm really like movies that really keep you on your toes like this where I guess if you haven't seen this movie i would recommend honestly watching it because listening to us like some movies i feel fine spoiling for our listeners but this movie i'm so glad i didn't know any of the twists going in because sometimes i'll go into a movie being like i've seen i've seen it all and then it turns out guess what i like half of my notes from the first half of the movie i had to like highlight being like just kidding i am i am the fool they got my ass like it's so tightly written and i just yeah this was my first time i've seen it twice I feel like this is a movie that really delivers on a rewatch. And I just really enjoyed it.

Holy, holy shit. I am just not as smart as this movie. I'm not operating on this level. And it was a pleasure to be in a world where I was like, oh, yeah, I would have. I don't know what would have happened to me if I existed in this world. I would have I would have just died because everyone is, like everyone's playing 4D chess the entire movie. It's wonderful. Yeah. Caitlin, what's your history of this movie?

Oh, gee whiz. I saw it not right when it came out, but I remember there being buzz around it because it was released in the U.S. sometime, I think in the back half of 2016. And then it won the Oscar for best movie, not in the English language. Oh, really? Yeah. For like the 2016 Oscars. So I was like, oh, all right. Got to see it. Exciting. So I was still getting Netflix DVDs at the time. So I took it upon myself to borrow, rent or whatever, to have Netflix send me a DVD. And I don't normally do this, but I watched the movie. And then as soon as it was over, I immediately watched it again. Because I was like, whoa, holy shit. I don't even want to process that. I just want to like rewatch it and just have a better understanding of what

happened because yeah like you said there's so many twists there's so many layers there's and so I've seen the movie I think like six or seven times now and every time I watch it I discover something new or like notice like a new little clue or like a bit of foreshadowing or some like plant and payoff or just like some detail that I had overlooked before. So, yeah, definitely holds up on a rewatch. The twists are so intricate that or like some of the reveals are just like I won't remember what happened. So like every time I rewatch it, it's like I'm seeing it for the first time. So I'm just like, whoa, it's beautiful to look at. It's mesmerizing.

Yeah, the story is so tightly written. I love this movie. And the history behind the movie is also really interesting. I didn't know about like all the adaptation stuff going on in this movie. So I'm very excited to talk about it. Yeah. I also in preparation for this episode watched the BBC like two episode miniseries. Wow. Fingersmith. She's doing her homework. Okay. Yes. Well, then I was also like Sally Hawkins is in this. Paddington's mom is in this. Obviously, I have to watch it see i always

think of sally hawkins i'm about to sound like i hate women i'm like she's the lady who had sex with the fish in the movie i know that lady but that was reductive and i apologize but she did have sex with a fish i mean you're not wrong i not wrong, but I should remember the character's name. I just know it was Sally Hawkins. Well, she's definitely Mrs. Brown in the Paddington franchise. So I did watch Fingersmith. Did you like it? I did. So just some context for anyone who's not aware.

This movie is based on a novel called Fingersmith by Sarah Waters that was published in 2002, I think. So obviously we did not read the book because we famously on this podcast do not read books. It probably won't stop people from getting mad at us for not reading a book. But listen, the show is free. I don't know what to tell you but I did watch this adaptation and probably like the second half of Fingersmith is pretty wildly different from the second half of The Handmaiden where I like the ending of The Handmaiden way better and I don't know if that's just because like I saw it first and my brain just works that way where I'm like ending of The Handmaiden way better. And I don't know if that's just because I saw it first

and my brain just works that way where I'm like, well, the first thing I saw is the thing that I like better because this happens all the time with me. But I don't know. I feel that it gives the characters more agency. Yeah, I like The Handmaiden better. I like the narrative choices that were made there. Yeah, it's the rare movie where I feel like we're constantly complaining about how movies are.

Movies are long, but this movie is two and a half hours long and it does not feel two and a half hours long, which is incredible. A miracle. Yeah. Should I get into the recap? Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's do it and uh so you feel free to jump in at any time it's a free for all absolutely thank you okay so the story takes place in japanese occupied korea so both korean and Japanese are spoken by almost every major character throughout the movie. I believe we are in the 30s. Yeah, although the decade wasn't super clear. But I read in interviews that yeah, it's supposed to be the 30s. Okay, cool. The story is divided into three parts. Part one, we meet Suki, a pickpocket, a forger. She's like a common thief.

We also meet a Korean man from a low class who is masquerading as a Japanese nobleman. He's going by the name Count Fujiwara. I kept calling him Count Olaf in my head because anytime someone introduces themselves as a count, I was like, okay, all counts are con men. This is a trend in media. All counts are lying about being a count. And they're always wearing a hat and lying. That's my knowledge of counts. I think that's canon. Yeah. This, I mean, does this count? Challenge that? He does not. It's true.

So he helps Suki get a job as a handmaiden to Lady Hideko. And he does this because he intends to seduce Lady Hideko, marry her, put her in, like, quote, a madhouse so that he can steal her fortune. And he needs Suki's help to do all this. So Suki, using a fake name, meets Lady Hideko and starts tending to her. She spends most of her days helping her uncle, Kazuki, with his rare books, which he collects and sells. And then he also hosts private events where Hideko does readings from the books for rich Japanese gentlemen. Right. And the meaning of rare books is really stretched and challenged later. Yes. Her uncle is, it becomes apparent pretty early early on and then even more apparent later on that he is extremely creepy and he's also trying to marry hediko to get access to her fortune

also something that count olaf's trying to do all the time oh that's true a lot of count Count Olaf connections here. Oh my God, right. Counts are always trying to marry people under false pretenses to get access to a fortune. I need to write a think piece about this. Doesn't Count Olaf pretend to be those children's uncle too or some family member? He pretends to be a distant relative in order to adopt them. I mean, I didn't even put that together. If anyone ever introduces them as a count,

walk away. They're lying. What's the story of The Count of Monte Cristo? Oh. I know I saw that movie, but... No idea. I feel like there's some deception involved there as well. Is is OK?

This is not the Count of Monte Cristo. Is that related to the sandwich or is the sandwich a separate thing? Monte Monte Cristo sandwich. Is Monte Cristo a place? I think they're all. Sorry, I was just born this morning. I think they're all extremely, not only connected, but identical. What is even in a Monte Cristo sandwich?

You know what? I'm being distracted. There's ham and there's cheese and you like panini it. And then there's like powdered sugar on top. Wow. That's always such a scam when someone makes a very simple sandwich sound extremely fancy. And they're like, it's Monte Cristo. It's $17.

And then you get it. You're like, this is ham and cheese. How dare you? Anyway, speaking of the count. Yes. He gets to work on seducing Lady Heideko under the guise of giving her painting lessons. Meanwhile, Suki and Heideko are getting closer and they are clearly attracted to each other. And the further into the scam Suki gets of like helping the fake count marry Heideko the more Suki wants to back out especially after one night when Lady Heideko wants Suki to teach her how to kiss so that she

will be ready to kiss the count and then they end up having very steamy sex. Suki has no choice but to keep going along with the scam. And the two of them run away. They travel with the count to Japan. The count marries Hideko. And then he and Suki take Hideko to be institutionalized. But wait a minute, turns out that the count and Hideko had been the ones who were tricking suki and they send suki to the institution i gasped gasped right yeah when hideko uh at first i was like what is going on because she hugs suki and then she walks backward really quickly and i was like what is happening and then it was uh the twist yeah but wait there's more wait there's more there's two more parts so this is the beginning of part two we learn what

the real situation is with lady hideko she's not this like virginal naive lady that we all thought she was the books of her uncles that she does readings for are very pornographic something that he's been training her to do ever since she was a child which is what disgusting the fuck yeah and this is like this is something he's done with like other members of the family too like her aunt as well yeah it's It's a whole thing. Yes. So when the count first meets her, he realizes that he would never be able to seduce her. So then he forms a different plan, which is to collaborate with her, take her away from this place and set her free, and then they will split her fortune.

And then it's her idea to find a handmaiden and send her to the institution under her name. So then a lot of the same story beats play out that we've seen before, but this time through Hideko's point of view, with like Suki arriving and tending to her and convincing her that she's in love with the count but then eventually because hideko and suki are falling in love hideko also wants to back out of the plan right and then finally the two of them reveal to each other that they have been tricking each other so that scene is so good but scary but good yeah where lady hideko is about to take her own life. She's about to hang herself.

And then Suki catches her and everyone watching the scene has an anxiety attack of like, I hope that she has strong arms. And this whole scene, it's really good. These two actors together are incredible. For sure. So now their new plan is to team up with each other against Count Fujiwara. And then right before they're about to run away, they also destroy the uncle's treasured book collection as basically a like, fuck you, dude gesture.

Yeah. And then we realize that when Suki is taken to the institution it's all part of the plan so then part three is suki escapes from the institution by lighting it on fire i was slightly confused about the logistics but by that point in the movie i was like yeah sure she lights it on fire yeah i believe it meanwhile hideko drugs the count escapes and meets up with suki they flee and get on a ferry to shanghai and then the count has been captured and brought back to the uncle's estate where the uncle tortures him and then the count smokes a couple cigarettes laced with mercury, which poisons the air and kills both the men.

And then we cut back to the ferry where Sookie and Hideko have more steamy sex. And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today.

And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not.

What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people.

There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. The largest adaptation change is obviously changing the setting. And I think the time period was shifted as well. I think it was like Victorian England to 1930s Japan and Korea. But what is different about like the plot points of the ending? So, yeah, the first half plays out basically the same. But in Fingersmith, the two women never collaborate they never say oh you're

tricking me i was tricking you wow let's team up together and take down these male oppressors that does not happen instead the handmaiden character ends up in the institution and then stays there for a while does still escape meanwhile the lady character like is taken to london after this marriage and she keeps trying to escape and they're like no we still have to get your fortune from you uh so she eventually is able to run away and goes to one of like the book collectors that her uncle knows but then he like turns her away so she has to go back to the home base of all the like the thief house basically in London which by the way the sort of like matron character yeah is played by Imelda Staunton who is of course Aunt Lucy from Paddington. Oh, okay.

Okay. I'm with you. So there's a lot of Paddington connections in Fingersmith. So, and then that, like, matriarch character is like, hey, royal lady person, by the way, you were switched at birth with this handmaiden lady and so she's the actual lady and you're a pet i think maybe i'm getting that totally wrong because things got also very confusing at that part the handmaiden is better is what i'm hearing right yeah so there's some like switched at birth scandal you can't introduce switched at birth at the end.

What is it? This fourth grade? And then so the count guy who they call whose name is like the gentleman in Fingersmith comes around at some point and gets murdered by unclear which person it was. It was either like the lady or the Imelda Staunton character. But Imelda Staunton's character takes the blame for it and then she is hanged. So that sort of now that all these people are dead, she goes back to her like estate with all the books. And then Sally Hawk, like the handmaiden character comes back and they sort of like reconcile. So the huge difference is that there's never a team up. There's never like a co-conspirator,

like let's take the men down kind of thing. They just sort of like have to forgive each other. And then there's some like class stuff of like, you're not who you think you are. And it's also kind of confusing so that's fingersmith it sounds interesting but long i like this better yeah okay well thank you thank you for um thank you for sharing that i i wasn't aware how how much the um the source material deviated from this adaptation.

Yeah, it's pretty significant. Or I mean, again, because we haven't read the book. Who knows what happens there? Who knows how much that BBC adaptation deviated from the original source material. But The Handmaiden is pretty drastically different in the second half of it from Fingersmith, the BBC series um got it yeah so yeah and because of that one of the things i like about this movie so much is that it's a story about men trying to exploit women and pit women against each other which doesn't work because the women talk to each other.

And then they're like, wait a minute, these men are trying to fuck us over. So they instead team up and punish their like, again, the male oppressors. And then they get together and they live happily ever after. God, I hope so. Or at least happily on the ferry ferry they at least have an amazing cruise so as you started to talk about so young in terms of like this being a pretty groundbreaking film for south korean cinema in terms of its like queer representation yeah just curious if you have any other thoughts on that or yeah because um you know queer representation is just it's not there's not a

lot in korean media and stuff like that even in you know songs and stuff and while it's still what's changing and people are becoming a lot more open to it. It's still not on the forefront like it is in America or, you know, other countries. So this was a, you know, this was a pretty big deal for not even it's not even like two gay men, because that would have been still more something that you would see. But to two women that that is unheard of. So this was yeah, this was pretty groundbreaking in that way and I appreciate it I saw like I guess mixed reception of of the sex scenes and how they were filmed and framed and I'm interested to talk about that as well but I did appreciate that like this movie is not shy at all about what it's about and about this like intense sexual connection that these two

women have uh because i feel like we i mean even in covering other movies on this podcast you know very often when there is a relationship between two women you get a fade to black situation or you you don't get the sex scene that appears in many PG-13 movies between a man and a woman. And so I was pleasantly surprised to see it. I was like, oh, we're getting sex scenes. That's exciting. I'm very pro-sex scene. And this would have been more common in at least like older American movies.

But I just remember that episode that we did on Fried Green Tomatoes where the source material like more explicitly makes it clear that the characters are queer. But then the movie, because it's like a movie from the 90s, not even suggests it. It's just like they're friends. Right. They're friends who don't kiss each other they're friends and they live together for such a long time which based on how you described like the history of queer representation in south korean cinema so young you might expect there to be more of a like coding of like that relationship,

even if like the two characters like do team up and like screw over the men that the precedent was set, it sounds like to not get very explicit about the nature of their relationship. So the fact that we do, it is very explicit. And we do see steamy sex scenes which again we'll talk about but um yeah I was like I thought that was I thought that was really cool because I did a little bit of just kind of I'm by no means an expert in Korean media and certainly not in like queer representation of it but there is a very helpful wikipedia our favorite scholarly journal page specifically about queer representation in korean media and that how according to two scholars pilho kim and c colin singer there are three pretty distinct waves of queer representation in korean cinema where there's like an invisible age from 1945 to 1997 where there was like minimal very minimal lgbtq plus

representation in film but those films were like relegated to the sidelines like they didn't get publicity they were not mainstream most people didn't see them they like flew under the radar and then there was the camouflage age from 98 to 2004 where representation grew during that period but queer characters and themes were still sidelined and overshadowed by more heteronormative characters and themes and then finally the blockbuster age from 2005 to the present where cultural acceptance of queer people in queer communities in south korea as well as queer representation in media has just kind of like been on the rise and been more tolerated and accepted. So which like doesn't sound that unlike the trend of queer representation in American Hollywood cinema, to be honest. Yeah, that's true. It's just a little slower, a little more behind. Right. Yeah. Another trip that I really liked that this movie because we've we've been covering a number of queer movies recently.

And I think, Oh, it was in our portrait of a lady on fire episode where we discussed the trope that it's also a very white trope ordinarily, but when there is a period piece with a lesbian couple, that it's all very doomed. It's all very like, it it it never ends well for the couple the couple never is able to survive the adversity which is in some ways at odds with

many historical examples but that is the trend that movies have taken and so when I when I learned this was a period piece I was like oh, Oh, no, are we going to get another, you know, doomed queer couple that and, and we don't they win, like they win. And I mean, it was, I guess it does kind of demonstrate how going for scraps, we still have to be at times, but I was like, they, their, their love survives. They overcome the adversity. It's not like, you know, an ending where they're just like, I wonder what could have been like they're on the damn boat having sex. I was thrilled that they ended up together at the end.

And because it's, yeah. And in period pieces, especially, I feel like that is kind of rare. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. period pieces especially i feel like that is kind of rare for sure yeah yeah it i think it legit uh shocked me given the historical context of the of the movie because you know during that time it was like a lot of people died so it wouldn't it wouldn't have been strange to kind of see that ending but the fact that it was a happy ending, I mean, that was amazing. I was like, absolutely, I'm here for it.

Yeah. And the catharsis of the two men dying cut to two women just putting jingle bells in their vaginas. And having a ball. I guess that's one way to put it literally no pun intended having a ball oh god the that there were moments where i like this movie is just straight up smarter than me in certain ways where i was like oh yeah like i know that the bell I was like the bell is a metaphorical object I can pick up on that much and so when they're fucking each other with the bells I'm like this means something I don't know what but

definitely something it's a metaphorical thing and I and and sure and I totally understand yeah I don't know what the bells are a metaphor for but I feel like I don't need to know I don't know every time I'm just like it's a metaphor for dot dot dot patriarchy

don't actually really know I think the bells they were in um one of the the books that yeah the lady she read i think they're just kind of like oh i'm gonna reclaim it you know it's not part of this weird creepy whatever thing that i'm doing for my uncle it's like our love thing that's what i thought i don't know right yeah it's like uses their use as a weapon at one point and okay maybe i do understand oh but that those are a different set of metal balls that are used like as a okay then i'm i'm lost again yeah i think that was stoned

those weren't the bells? Okay. No. They look similar. But no, but you're right, So Young, where she was, because it's this difference of she's being forced against her will to read these stories solely for the sake of the pleasure of all of these men. And then when we actually see her use those toys materials the items the bells the bells now it's like they're on her terms and she's not doing it for these creepy men she's doing it for herself so it's like a nice just symbolic thing i also noticed in that scene when she's reading about because that's the only scene i think where

she's doing a reading from one of those books that does involve two women and we see her like pat her little handkerchief like pat down her like perspiration as if to say wow that actually got me excited because of all the other the other scenes where she's doing readings about like a penis going into a vagina she's just like not interested do not care and a penis going into a vagina in a pretty a pretty mean way most of the time like they're they're not they're very unpleasant stories that all these guys are getting extremely aroused by it's all like i mean i guess that that is like so much of what comes up in the movie is like the the men of this story policing and controlling the women in their lives and controlling their bodies sexually controlling their bodies in terms of like lady hideko is literally like trapped in this castle kind of

princess peach style and it's like about the extreme control of women's bodies and and an attempt to control their minds which doesn't succeed but yeah i don't know i mean it's it's so and and then also in the case of the uncle this really volatile nature of like repeated intimidation of his wife who eventually takes her own life and and his niece but no he it's implied that i'm sorry he kills her but it but it's played off as though she killed herself but in any case like it repeatedly like instilling them with fear and threats and then when they respond to that they're framed as hysterical in this very, I mean, I guess you're like, well, it's the 1930s. Of course, that is happening. But it was interesting seeing it framed the way it was where it was like, even with that deception that they're

like, oh, she, she took her own life, you know, because she was, you know because she was you know she was suffering from something that we don't really know what was going on when it's like so clear what is going on in this house where women are just brutalized and I I don't know I mean it's it's it's really brutal in some um in some sections of this movie to the point where, you know, when the Count and the uncle kind of get their comeuppance at the end, you're like, thank God. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially with the reveal that the uncle has been basically grooming her since childhood to read this, like, erotic literature. That's straight up child sex abuse. And so when he keels over and dies, I was like, it's about damn time.

Let's take another quick break and then we will be right back. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered There are crooks everywhere you look now The situation is desperate My name is Manuel Delia

I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground.

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named Sarah Waters who wrote this in 2002 and I thought that just I don't know all the information on adapting this movie and adapting that story to Japan and Korea in this time period I I learned a lot having gotten, you know, a piss poor American education. This period of history in Korea and Japan, I was not well versed in. I knew kind of the main bullet points, but learning more about the annexation of Korea and just the complete cultural erasure and colonialism that was going on at this time was not something that I was very well versed in. And it doesn't sound like it was something that Sarah Waters, a Welsh author, was very well versed in as well.

And so there, we'll link this in the description, but it's just a very interesting adaptation story where Sarah Waters was at first not sure whether Park Chan-wook, who is the director of this movie and many other movies. He's kind of has a reputation for being a hyper masculine director. Like he directs pretty like he directed Oldboy. He directed all these like really male driven movies. And so at first she was like i don't does this make sense and once they like discussed collaborating and he sir and and he also wrote this script with a female co-writer uh chung i hope that i'm getting this right chung seo kyung um who he's worked with a number of times over the years so he had he had a female co-writer

and they proposed this time shift and that was what got Sarah Waters on board so I just I don't know it's it's a really cool story of and I and I feel like this time period in the setting like fit the story so effortlessly and also kind of I mean based on what you're saying about the BBC adaptation Caitlin sounds like it sort of expands the scope of what the story is able to explore because it's you know not only is it examining class in a lot of ways and it's like examining queerness and it's examining patriarchy but it's also touching on this you know extreme period of colonialism and really aggressive cultural erasure in a way it sounds like the source material didn't because of where where and when it was set so um yeah yeah

it's just a really interesting uh story yeah like i was like turns out i know nothing about this period of history. Let me read the Wikipedia page. I mean, it's just like in the US, we're just like not taught about this period of time at all. Yeah. So this movie inspired me to like learn about it. So I did read the first several paragraphs of the Wikipedia page. Well, we'll link to some resources in uh in the description as well if you like us got a very limited shitty education in the united states yeah i just wanted to add like i think one of the interesting things is like uh so the brutality of the men right the men were pretty terrible and they did pretty terrible things.

But during this time, you know, there was a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment, obviously, because of what was happening. And I thought it was really interesting because these two men are very pro-Japanese, right? They want, you know, doing all these things, but they're Korean. And so it kind of showed the whole, you know, in my personal opinion, it showed a whole like, oh, the Koreans who kind of betrayed, you know, our country, in a sense, were worse than the Japanese people who invaded our country. So I did find that that's a very interesting framing of that from Park Chan-wook, because, you know, during this time, it was such a, you know, it was obviously a bad time, but kind of that shined janu because you know this during this time it was such a you know it was

obviously a bad time but kind of that shined through the very you know don't be this type of person during this horrible time in which you know these things happen so yeah yeah totally yeah there there's like that whole conversation they have where it's like a reveal later in the movie that the uncle has done the same thing that the count is in the middle of doing which is yeah you know saying they're they're japanese when they are not and uh being generally villainous and but there's like that whole conversation they have where the uncle is talking about how he thinks that k is ugly and Japan is beautiful. And the count says, oh, you know, that's interesting. I've heard people say the exact opposite.

And it's like the, I don't know. I mean, and again, I'm not extremely educated in this period of history at all, but just even opening this story to make room for discussion about that. And it does seem like Park chanuk is is making kind of a value judgment of of these characters through their behavior outside of of the colonial history yeah yeah it's it's it's it's you know i never want to see someone's fingers chopped off by like a paper cutter um i guess that's the end of the sentence but you know it's like if it had to happen to someone i'm like the count is terrible and and as the as the story goes on you just realize more more angles from which he is terrible yeah and so

when they take his fingers off with a paper cutter it's like you know yeah okay fine fine i'll allow it yeah no uh both the count and the uncle got what they deserved as far as i'm concerned because you know they're both abusers they're manipulators i mean we see a scene where the Count tries to sexually assault Hidiko. These are awful, awful men. And so I appreciate that we see toxic male behavior being punished because they end up dying. Because the women were very clever in their orchestration of this scheme to get back at them and I thought that was really cool to see you often don't see toxic male behavior punished in movies so yeah I just appreciated that a lot right

and it does seem like they really I mean both of those characters are leveraging the most dominant advantage they have which is the fact that they're men and it is i feel like any you know any empathy you could generate for these characters who are to an extent in a really difficult situation as korean men at this time of intense colonialism is completely undercut by the fact that they're taking it out on the women around them, the people who have less power than them, and elevating themselves at the expense of the people who have less power. And there's, there were some like, moments I found interesting with the count where he says these things that sound so cutting and cruel, but you can sort of understand why he's saying them, even if you don't agree with it, where he's saying, you know, where I come from, it's illegal to be naive.

And sort of referencing the fact that he's from the underclass and he's from he's Korean. He's from a really oppressed group of people at this time. And so you can understand why he would say that but what he's talking about is deceiving a korean woman and throwing her in jail essentially and it's yeah oh yeah it's almost like blaming her it's like you shouldn't have trusted anybody yeah ever right yeah it's it's all very fascinating and yeah the way that these really terrible men in the movie are punished for their like upholding of the patriarchy is very exciting to watch in a way that like doesn't really I mean it kind of happens in Fingersmith but like again the major change that I really appreciate is

the two women like realizing that they're in love with the other that kind of prompts them to admit what's going on then they're like yeah i'm upset that you tricked me but also i was tricking you so i can't be that upset but now that we know what the real situation is let's team up and now there's a third trickery happening against the count so I love a movie with tricks. It's exciting. Should we talk a little bit more about the sex scenes slash the male gaze? Yeah, let's get into it. So like we mentioned, there have been mixed reviews. Yes. Like we mentioned, there have been mixed reviews about this, where some of the discussion around this film was how the movie deconstructs or transcends the male gaze. up and collaborate and take down the men rather than the sex scenes themselves because other

critics have been like um well it is a movie about lesbians with some graphic sex scenes that were shot by a director and cinematographer who are both men and these sex scenes are really long and and quite graphic and you know there's still male gaze involved because of the people who are capturing this imagery and delivering it to an audience and then other people were like but what about the part of the movie where there's like a shot from the point of view of Heideko's vulva? We just see Suki like leaning in with her tongue out about. Like she had a GoPro on her vulva. Yeah. Is essentially the shot and so it's like well how could that be the male gaze

when it's literally from the point of view of a vagina and that so there's you know there's a lot of sides to this argument yeah i'm curious how the both of you feel about this i i think okay look i think the the sex scenes were over the top. That's just my personal opinion. I think it was a lot and very graphic and almost, like, unnecessarily graphic, honestly. And I do agree. It's a male director. It's a male cinematographer. So there is a male gaze there, especially, I don't know the director, obviously, but just kind of, of like how much do they really know about how

the sex scene should go you know in like in other LGBTQ movies so I'll say yeah that's like my main criticism it is it's a lot it's definitely almost too much uh and I think if you didn't have it that graphic or whatever it wouldn't have taken away from the story whatsoever sure so i think yeah i think it was a little too much i wasn't sure i mean i i was interested to read through all the different takes and it's like you know if if you loved the sex scene that's great i didn't i mean i liked that there was a sex scene there i didn't have any issue with that because i feel like you know very often like we were talking about earlier when there's a lesbian relationship it's all very like wink wink fade to black in mainstream movies but the scenes are very

long they're extremely long the gopro shot through me uh we also get the same sex scene twice from like yeah two different points of view yeah i guess yeah i mean knowing that it was directed and filmed by men uh i feel like kind of tells you what you need to know and I was also interested in this came from a guardian profile of Sarah Waters who wrote Fingersmith at the time The Handmaiden came out and kind of like clarified I was like what is so essentially what it says is in in the book which we're not going to read but in in the book i guess uh you know sarah waters very often writes lesbian romances in her work but a lot of what she's known for is just talking about women's bodies very frankly in a way that like incorporates things like sweat and like pubic hair and just things that are kind of a glossed over and a lot of big movie sex scenes and present this very idealized version of what lesbian sex looks like. where, you know, like when Lady Hideko is reading this, you know, pornographic literature, they're referencing the vagina repeatedly as like hairless, smooth, like this mythic thing

that those who have vaginas are like, okay, sure. It's somehow like pearly white, made of jade. The jade gate you know and they're like folds of like gore you're like okay but also and shimmers and but there's also other stuff going on um and it seems like her work was kind of known for just like talking about bodies in that way that was like very sexual but also about actual bodies and not this like mythic view of what bodies are and I felt like the sex scenes in this movie didn't really meet that where it still felt even though the other side of that came across clearly that it's like listening to her have to talk about this really unrealistic uh view of what a vagina looks like day after day is clearly wearing on her and is ridiculous and male gazey

the sex scenes i feel like didn't really challenge that enough i don't know i don't know my personal My personal opinion is that they were long. Yeah, I'm like of two minds about it, where I think it's cool that we do get more of a foray into lesbian sex than you tend to see in mainstream movies just because of like our heteronormative society and so much phobia around queer sex there's just been a tendency to shy away from it or skirt around it or just not feature it especially because when it's lesbian sex there is double the focus on female pleasure, which is something that even in heterosex scenes, and just again, culture at large, the idea of female pleasure is terrifying to a large chunk of the population. So for there to be this emphasis on female pleasure in these sex scenes is cool and exciting. Yeah. But these sex scenes linger on for longer than we need. And ultimately, they are, by the very nature of who is making this film, shot through the

male gaze and interpreted through the male gaze and even sort of the way in which the like the blocking of the sex scenes feels it's a lot it's i just knowing there was a man on the other side of the gopro yeah it feels just like okay it feels fetishy the way some straight men are like oh yeah lesbians getting it on yeah that's so hot i agree and i feel like that is like another thing that it seems like i mean just based on doing basic you know research on this production team that uh park chanuk very often collaborates with the same group of people and this is a cinematographer he works with a lot but it's like if again it's like we talk about this with male

directors all the time of like if you are dead set on adapting this story then you need to be flexible in who you're working with and you need to like really make sure you have people in the room who will just be able to speak to the experience because otherwise there's going to be stuff that feels dissonant yeah i did read an interview with the director in which he addresses these sex scenes and it seems like his general intention was that he understood how like delicate of a thing this would be to shoot and he wanted to be as considerate and respectful to the actors as possible because that's always something we're like okay these actors have to be naked in front of a bunch of people they have to be physically close with another actor simulating sex. And depending on different factors, this has the potential to be very

uncomfortable for actors. Right. So I found this interview in which he it seems like, you know, he he did his very best, although some of the answers are funny where he's like that day we hired a woman to be the boom operator for that day on set and it's like well is that the only circumstances where you would hire a woman to be your boom operator. Ay, yay, yay. But it seems like he was fully aware of the situation. He wanted to make everyone as comfortable as possible, so there was very minimal crew on set for those scenes. The DP and the camera operator were not on set, that they were using a a remote controlled camera.

I hope there's like an intimacy coordinator or something of that nature. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because so if any listeners are not aware, if a movie or TV production has a sex scene, ideally, they will hire what's called an intimacy coordinator, who is there to advocate for the well-being and safety of the actors who participate in sex scenes or just like kind of any other physically intimate scenes. Yes. Again, ideally, a set will have this person, but that's not always the case. And as far as whether or not an intimacy coordinator was present on this set, that did not get spoken of.

So I am not sure. I really hope so. Oh, my God. If you're that naked, please have a person who's your advocate there. That is. I hope he just forgot to mention that person yeah that did not come up in the interview but at least it sounds like he made an effort I didn't find anything on how the actors felt about those scenes about you know whether they were comfortable i hope so but yeah it's also sort

of like okay if you have to take so many leaps and bounds to make the shooting of this safe for the actors it's also a question of like okay do i like does this absolutely need to happen this way or i feel like they're i mean in the erotic thriller genre in general i feel like sometimes it's like i don't know i'm generally showing up for the thriller elements and then if people are fucking amazing that's great but that's not like what what i'm like what the bulk of the movie is but yeah i feel like those scenes were like okay this is an erotic thriller got it especially because like i'm also interested on your the both of your thoughts on this as well but to me there's far more of an emphasis in the movie on their sexual connection and like their physical attraction than there is on like an actual like, what do they have in common? Why do they like each other?

I didn't get a big sense of that, but also maybe I'm forgetting some stuff. I do think, yeah, I think there is more emphasis on the sexual parts. I think with the emotional, like, aspect of it, the part that sticks out to me is, like, the time when Suki is destroying all the books and the paintings and whatnot. And she's, like, so angry because she understands, you know, what has been happening.

She destroys everything. And the lady, Hideko, is just, you know what has been happening she destroys everything and the lady hideko is just you know standing there just like not fully sure on what to do she's just like oh what is happening i don't know i feel like that like on an emotional level was like i don't know i felt that i was like oh that's really sweet because you know they're kind of their worlds are colliding in this moment where it's like she kind of like is thinking oh i thought you were this rich girl who doesn't really understand anything but it's like no you're you're victimized the way i'm victimized just in different aspects you know so i feel like that's kind of how the worlds collided yeah in that sense yeah that's

what that's what i saw that's the scene i remember Yeah, I felt a similar way where it, you know, I guess that you learn more about their emotional connection in the back half where like part one definitely doesn't give you everything you need, but also part one gives you a completely false impression of who Lady Hideko is. Like I feel like if we were just, like all my notes from part one was like oh my gosh like lady hideko is on this like born sexy yesterday thing going on

and she's just like i don't what is sex i've never heard of that and you know and in a way that i thought like the movie had fun with later where they kind of poke fun at suki for being like wow this must just you must have incredible instincts for being like, yeah, you're a natural. That made me laugh. But I thought that I mean, I don't know, I felt like any relationship where they just surprised each other. And like, I don't know, I'm always like kind of a sucker for relationships like that and it is like you know kind of like definitely a class story we've seen before let's say titan titanic perchance perhaps uh but where where you know it's it's like they have very rigid ideas of who this person is going to be and they end up getting surprised by that person having a lot more to them than they expected so

I was on board for the love story I I got why they were drawn to each other as people and I think you know we definitely could have spent more time with it um and with with them as that relationship was building but especially those like longer scenes in part one when you reflect on them and you're like oh like lady hideko is playing 4d chess and she knows exactly what's going on and even still she's like falling for suki i i don't know i was on board for the romance i thought it was i thought it was like a classic you know star-crossed lovers across classes kind of thing. Sure. Yeah.

It just contrived in itself, but like, whatever. I think we could have shortened those sex scenes and given us like one or two more signifiers of just like, oh, yeah, here's what they bond over. Here's a thing that they both like, or here's a little thing that they have in common, because I don't really, I still don't have the strongest sense of that. And it's one thing, you know, if a movie wants to present this connection just as a sexual connection, like obviously not every connection between people needs to be this deep, intimate, long lasting love. But I feel like the movie frames their connection as deep love. So I don't know. But now I'm just picturing Titanic,

if Titanic were like Billy Zane and Rose collaborating to trick Jack Dawson into something. But it turns out, wait a minute, rose and jack are collaborating to trick billy zane and get his fortune everything remaps onto titanic it's just nature um it's unavoidable another something that i also like it's a trope we talked about a bajillion times but relationships that are founded on lies you know that was like i was aware of very early in the movie but again i feel like this movie kind of like finds its way out of the trappings of that where the lies are found out and they simply admit it and apologize to each other and then like take action in a positive direction where

i feel like you know we've covered five trillion movies at this point that is like there's a dare that involves a lie and it makes sense but not really and then at the end the you know the person lying usually in this heterosexual relationship is like freddie prince jr and he's like i don't know i told a lie and i'm not even sorry i'm not gonna apologize this movie you know like skirts all of those things where it is just everything is a lie at the beginning but then there's that great scene where uh suki catches lady hideko and they have this this just very emotionally raw conversation and they're both crying they're both being honest and then and then they single-handedly destroy the patriarchy at the

end so there you go yeah also I mean they're both victims of this patriarchal structure they're both they have a lot of trauma that they have been subjected to so yeah i mean it makes sense they bond again i just i wish there was yeah just a smidge more there's also that moment that i don't know in the different it makes me want to like watch it back again because i feel like this like this movie does like give you a lot back once you know what's going to happen in the middle. But even the ways that their patriarchal structure influences their assumptions of each other, where at the beginning, like Suki, we hear her talking in voiceover a lot,

and she's talking about Lady Hideko as if she's an object at the beginning. And she's like you know ladies are handmaidens dolls and like she is you know being encouraged to think of her in this very particular way and being encouraged to think of her as you know someone who is not as smart as her and then in the second half we're being encouraged to think of Suki as someone who is not as smart as Lady Hideko based on how she's been conditioned to view you know poor women and and poor people in general and then in the third part you realize uh guess

what neither was true and it was somewhere in the middle and and they're on both geniuses they're both geniuses and and they're on a boat i really liked uh suki had this fun like aladdin style introduction to who she was that i thought was very exciting where i like the um the mythos of suki's life where she's like i am the world's greatest thief and i was like oh my god she's aladdin this is exciting and that was i don't know if that has anything to do with anything but i wrote down suki equals aladdin i mean and she falls in love with her princess jasmine um hitako teaches suuki how to read. So women helping other women, women uplifting women. You love to see it.

Although reading for Hideko was a prison for a long time. She was taught to read for evil. Yeah, it's true. And that's why we don't read books. And that's why on the Bechtel cast, we don't read books because reading actually actually, women reading is a prison. Dangerous.

We've been saying this for years at this point. It's dangerous. I mean, to call back to another Disney movie, according to Gaston in Beauty and the Beast, women who read, it gives them ideas and then they start thinking. And that is dangerous. It's dangerous um does anyone does anyone have anything else they would like to talk about uh that's all i had yeah same uh i just wanted to add so there's in the second half of the movie there's a scene we've seen a couple times from two different points of view where suki is like standing in as just like a model for the art like the painting that hideko

is doing of suki and you see a quick reveal of her drawing of suki and it's the funniest thing in the world because it's so bad it's really bad but it's like what Leonardo DiCaprio was actually drawing in the Titanic scene he's like um circle dot dot smile and you just get like the quickest glimpse of it but and it's not really played as a joke but I like I burst out laughing every time I see it because it's so funny because then because first you see so the council thing is that he's been training for years to be a forger so he like he's a talented artist like he's a really good artist he's really good at creating these forgeries of these books and like the art in the books so he knows what he's doing and you see like his little sketches and paintings of suki and you're like oh

damn like he's great and then it pans over to lady hideko's drawing it's the funniest thing in the world it's really bad it's um I guess the last serious thing I wanted to talk about and I don't know a whole lot about Park Chan-wook's filmography I've seen Old Boy but it's been several years so I don't remember it that well so I don't really know much about him as a figure and sort of like his his background and stuff like that but one of his reasons for wanting to make this movie is that his intention was to normalize queer relationships in cinema and you know that's not something that most straight male directors are concerned with. So I feel like it's a, it's a classic step in the right direction kind of move where we've talked

about, I think a lot of instances like this where the attempt is perhaps imperfect in some ways, but the endorsement of a, you know, super famous director. And I mean, not even the endorsement,

but, but like a super famous director and i mean not even the endorsement but but like a super famous director prioritizing representation of queer people and of a lesbian relationship in their work is is like a a good step in the right direction does it mean that everything was represented perfectly and in a way that made total sense usually not in those cases because most of these hotshot directors are normally straight men and therefore they're fucked in terms of their worldview.

But it usually indicates, I feel like at least historically, it usually indicates that better movies and better representation is close behind or I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. And this movie being a success better movies and better representation is close behind or I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. And this movie being a success and critically acclaimed,

hopefully paves the way for queer women in South Korea to be able to tell their own stories next. Let's hope so. Yeah. Yeah. So the movie does pass the Bechdel test. Oh, hell yeah. A lot of women scheming. A lot of women lying to each other in a way that passes the Bechdel test.

And as far as our nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples based on how the movie fares looking at it through the lens of intersectional feminism. I'm tempted to give this like a 4.25, just the narrative that unfolds of ultimately like women teaming up to overthrow and manipulate their oppressors the way that they had been manipulating them and coming out on top, being allowed to like be together on this ferry. And then hopefully after that, for however much time they want to spend together, if they live, you know, the rest of their lives together. And yeah, just like all the commentary on the patriarchy and the smashing of that patriarchy is just very satisfying and cathartic to watch. The sex scenes are pretty male gaze-y. They're pretty fetish-y a bit gratuitous we'll say

you know it always kind of begs the question was this the right director to tell this story or you know like is this is this the right person to be shooting these scenes and like how much consultation was actually done etc yeah so that's where the movie loses some points so i think i'll land on a four and a quarter that might be too generous but i just think this movie rules so i'm gonna go easy on it and i will give my nipples to tae-ri kim who plays suki min Min-hee Kim, who plays Hidako, the screenwriter, Jong-seo Kyeon, and I'll give one to the aunt,

a tragic fate, and she deserves something. I'll give my quarter nipple to that amazing drawing. I'm going to go, I think I'm going to go there. When we get into the fractions, it gets so messy. I'm going to go 3.75 because ultimately this movie is directed and shot by straight guys. So I can't.

Yeah, I don't want to go too much higher than that. That said, a period piece that has a female co-writer based on the work of a famous lesbian writer. It's a period piece where the lesbian couple stays together. It's a happy ending for them. We see their patriarchal structure um at least in the terms

of the two of them crumble and is very cool and very uh rare in terms of lesbian period pieces unfortunately uh so i i think that that's definitely something worth praising the movie itself fucking rocks like if you haven't seen it it's so fun i wish i had watched it with someone else so we could have like oh at like all the right moments but it's just it's a really fun movie it's very accessible if you have amazon prime hail bezos sorry we legally have to say that. Our king. We love our bald king. But yeah, I mean, I think that there are like little, the sex scenes are male gaze-y and they are quite long. And there are, I don't know, I mean, this is sort of inherent to the kind of story that this is. But anytime it's like the

patriarchy is two people and you know them so if you can just get rid of these two people right you're free like it's it's fun in a fantasy way but i'm always just like okay but what about the rest of it yeah it's not so much smashing the patriarchy it's more smashing two men those two guys you know uh which is also very hard but true you know whatever i'm getting very in the weeds there um i guess you know i i'll go for for a four but i can't go higher because when it's when it's two straight guys it's just like okay so this is a step but more please uh so i'll go four and i'm giving them all to that gopro so yeah what would what would you give it um i think i'd give it a solid four because you know it's a good story it's

it's great that it it exists in this world from you know korea and stuff like that but just yeah the sex scenes are so long they're so long and i was just like it's too long and we had to see multiple angles of it and um you know i feel like you know you could have shortened it just a little bit not like you know get rid of it but shorten it but you know i like the story being told in that time of uh the occupation um and you know their love actually you know happy ending they both get to be together you know the men they die and everyone is happy who's alive so i give it a solid four hell yeah amazing yeah well thank you so much for joining us on this journey.

Thank you for having me. Of course. Do you have anything you'd like to plug? Any social media or anything like that? I do not. I do not have social media. It's better that way. Wow, our bravest guest yet.

That is the healthiest thing I've ever heard in my entire life congratulations yeah thank you uh unfortunately we're still on social media you can find us at the bechtel cast on twitter and instagram or bechtelcast on Twitter and Instagram. Oh my God. You can go to our Patreon, AKA Matreon at patreon.com. Dot com slash Bechtelcast. This, this month on the, on the Patreon, we're doing movies that have animals in them.

I forget why, but we are. And so if you want to hear episodes about Stuart Little and, and Babe, and Babe the Pig. It's only $5 a month and you can hear whatever that is. I mean, Jamie, it's famously Animal June. What are you talking about?

Yeah, it's Animal June, which we've observed for many, many years. Yeah. There's also our TeePublic store, teepublic.com slash the Bechtel cast, where you can get all of your merchandising needs. And with that, I'm glad that we all stopped lying to each other and tricking each other. Let's get on a boat to Shanghai. Let's get out of here. Let's do it. Bye. Bye. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks.

She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's on Apple Podcasts. our opinions. So join us as we stir the pot and get ourselves into some trouble.

Okay, maybe a lot of trouble. Listen to Two Teas in a Pod on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.