The Bechdel Cast - The Last Unicorn with Hannah Eko

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

This week, unicorns Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Hannah Eko set off on a journey to discuss The Last Unicorn (1982). Here's the Letterboxd review by Sally Jane Black that we mention - https://letterboxd.com/fuchsiadyke/film/the-last-unicorn/  Check out Hannah on her website: https://hannahoeko.com as well as @hannah.eko on Instagram and hannahekowrites.substack.com  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Welcome to the Last Podcast. If only, right? What a sigh of relief. We're the last one. We're the final one we did it.

We're the only one left. That is, okay, just spoilers for the movie right away. And if we released all the podcasts from the ocean, would that be a force of good is the question? It really depends. That's a lot of different kinds of unicorns we're talking. True. But we are, yes, we are the last podcast.

My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is the bectal cast, our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bectal test simply as a jumping off point. A podcast unicorn, you could say. Exactly. And then whatever is the bechal test, Jamie. Well, I'll tell you, it is a media metric created by a unicorn in her own right.

The one in only Alison Bechtel in her old comic strip, Dikes to Watch Out for. It was a one-off joke in the 80s that was meant to draw attention to the fact that there were no queer love stories between women on screen. It has since been adapted into a mainstream media metric. There's a lot of versions of this test. Our version of the test requires the following. Two characters with names of a marginalized gender speaking to each other. about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. And I feel like the movie we're covering today is in conversation with the bechdel cast, the bechal test, obviously the bechal cast in a very

interesting way. Yeah, I have to say like right out the jump and then we'll get our guests in here because I'm very, very excited. There were so many lines in this movie that had me like flat on my back where you're like, people are just saying things in this movie. It is so, I think my favorite line that I could not have seen coming is when the guy who I thought was like Scottish or Irish coded, right, invites Alan Ark and the magician around the fire and offers him a taco. And you're like, that is, anyways, that's going to be, people surprise you all the time. And that's sort of what this movie is about. So let's get our guest in here.

Yes, let's, she is a writer, book dula, founder of. of the Cannabis Literary Event Series, The Lit Club, and author of the book, Honey is the Knife. It's Hannah Echo. Hey. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, I also remember that line. And I was like, huh. I'm like, maybe that's more explained in the book. Right. Like, maybe there's context that we missed here because it was very, I was like, maybe that was like an early 80s reference to something else. It was like a taco. Great.

Could be. Yeah. No one was eating tacos, so I don't know. I don't know. It was a mystery. I did write it down as well. The thing that really knocked me flat on my ass was the entire butterfly song. Yes. I was just like, what are you saying, sir?

We don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of riddles. Yes. The cats, the butterfly, the skeleton. Oh my gosh. Skeleton best character. Yeah. So that seems to be a major motif.

Yeah. Yes. We are, I guess we should have said, we're covering the last unicorn, 1982. Yeah. And we're so excited to have you on the show. This is like I was so taken by this movie and we want to know what your history with it is. Yeah.

So I wrote about this some years ago. I immigrated to California when I was four years old. So I hadn't met my parents. Well, I'd been with my mom until seven months. Very typical like I guess first gen. So Nigerian household. So I remember very distinctly, like, it was just such a journey from just like this cold England and then boom, I'm in California, L.A. And my dad at the time, he and my uncle, they co-owned a convenience store in L.A. on Western and 27th.

And so we also rented videos at the time. We had like a small section. There's also a small porn section. And yeah, you know, so, you know, learning many things. things as a child. And I remember very distinctly, like the two movies that were like my like go to at the time. It was a little mermaid and it was the last unicorn. You know, I look back. I just, I find it interesting what kids gravitate to naturally. Yeah. Because not all kids feel the same way about all movies. And so I really do think that there is some kind of mystical resonance that

these children are having because they're in their like receptive state. So for me, me, the last unicorn, I just loved it. I don't know if I had heard of unicorns before that point, but I very much remember just being really taken by this film. And around that time, or maybe sometime later, our store was, like, vandalized during the Rodney King riots. And I remember, like, the people ended up coming in from the roof. There was like a big hole in the roof. And they stole a bunch of things. I think people, some people, unfortunately, were just using it as an excuse, of course, to do damage. And so they stole a lot of stuff in the store.

And I remember as a kid, I couldn't say it out loud, but I was very happy because they didn't steal the last unicorn. I think they took the little mermaid. You know, someone was like, maybe took it for their daughter. I don't know. But they didn't take the last unicorn. And I remember just really feeling like very blessed for that. And then I also very much remember, like, I was so taken of unicorns as many young girls

are. and I asked my dad, I was like, are there actually unicorns? It just seemed very plausible to me, you know, a horse of a horn. And he's like, yeah, there are, but they live in Nigeria. And so for years, I believe that they actually, like, were real. And they lived in Nigeria. So that's kind of my connection to it. I come back to it every so often in the movie.

And it's very interesting when I find people who also have a connection to it. Because it's a very, I feel like, millennial niche kind of thing. I thought there are certain things that only certain people kind of were able to get caught into the web of and lasting the corner stuff when we want to go sing. So that's basically my history with the film. Beautiful. That's really beautiful. I like the two movies that really resonated with you as a kid are ones where a mythological creature gets turned into a mortal human for a while. The 80s was all about that premise.

It seems like. And in the fact that these two movies that I now love both, I hadn't seen The Last Unicorn before, but that they handle that premise in such different ways. I think it's really beautiful. So yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship, if any, with this? I had never seen it before. I don't think for any particular reason.

I think just it might have, this seems like a micro-generational thing. I might have been a little bit too young to see this. I was really interested as like an animation history dork. This has a very interesting place in animation history, which I think is very cool, as does Peter Beagle, which is the author who wrote the screenplay and the original book.

Anna just has an awesome name. I don't know. I was really taken by how he, I think, wrote the screenplay for the Lord of the Rings adaptation. That was done by the same group of animators. A lot of the animators from this. movie go on to work for studio jibble. It's just really cool. I love Rankin' Bass. Um, and you can like, I think because I grew up watching the Rankin Bass holiday specials, you can hear certain voices and you're

like, oh, it's Burger Meister Meister Burger, um, et cetera. Um, yeah, this movie, like, I really loved it. It's so weird in a way that I really appreciated. I feel like I wasn't, I don't know why. I wasn't like super into fantasy after like middle school age. I think I went more like mystery route. But I really love the like fantasy convention that you meet a character and the character is so bizarre. And then they're just gone. And that happens in this movie a hundred times and all of the characters I was scratching my head respectfully. You're like, okay. And now there's a tree with huge tits. And then 90 seconds later, like, and for sure that's the last we see of the tree with huge tits. And it is. And like, I just, I loved it. I had the best time and I'm really excited to talk about it. Um, Caitlin, what is

your history with The Last Uticorn? I saw this movie in college during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005. A friend of mine suggested it. Um, I had this friend in college who introduced me to a lot of my, what are now my favorite movies still to this day, such as Josie and the Pussy Cats and American Psycho. And she's like, the last unicorn also rips. We should watch it. So we did. And I wasn't as taken with it as I might have been if I had seen it when I was younger, perhaps. And I didn't remember really anything from it, except I remember recognizing Jeff Bridges. voice because I was a fan of the Big Lebowski at the time and still. And I was like, hey, that's the dude. Like being this weird prince who doesn't seem to notice that his dad is pure evil. And then also

that his dad is like, oh, by the way, that's not even my son. Anyways. And you're like, what? Wait a minute. What? And then he's like, anyways, you're the last unicorn. I know it. Like, I just, oh, this movie is so silly. I love it. It's so bizarre. But yeah, I hadn't retained much from the story. So watching it this time to prep for the episode, it was kind of like watching it for the first time. And it's a very interesting movie. I don't know what to make of a lot of it. I'm ready to be swayed one way or the other. I have thoughts, but I'm just like, what is going on in so much of this? But yeah, I'm really excited to talk about it. Oh, my gosh. Should we take a quick break and then come back?

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Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy, as in compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. is the recap of the Last Unicorn, 1984. And Hannah, feel free to jump in, whatever. I feel like there's just like, there's so much going on. Yeah.

There's 5,000 characters. There are. And I love it for, that's also one thing I really do love about it is the, it's very episodic. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, things are just happening. And I think that's very life. True.

So I appreciate it. People come and can go in. Yeah. Sometimes you spend a night with a tree and you're like, who knows? Who knows? Slend. Yeah. Sometimes you're nestled in the bosom of a huge titty tree and you just have to go with it. And tied. And tied with a rope. Yeah. Pretty kinky, honestly. Yeah. No, it's a very kinky movie for sure. If anyone watches this, I'm like, you're either probably into psychedelics, you're queer or you're into kink. Probably all three. Probably all three. I think that about a lot of 80s fantasy, because I also associate that with like the never-ending story. There's a bunch of like bizarreo stuff going on.

Say my name. See my name. Right. Like you're just, I don't know. It's all a little sexy, 80s fantasy. Yeah. Okay, so here's the story. We see two hunters in a forest.

They're talking about how a unicorn must live there because it's lush and green and beautiful and always springtime. And they speculate that this must be the last unicorn. Hey, that's the name of the movie. In existence, anywhere in. the world. These hunters leave, not wanting to bother the unicorn who we meet. And her name is just sort of unicorn for most of the movie. And she's Mia Farrow. And she's voiced by Mia Farrow. Yeah. She has overheard the hunters and wonders, am I really the last unicorn? Then a butterfly shows up and he sings one of the wackiest songs I've ever heard in a movie. I truly,

don't know. The songs in this movie are either amazing or horrible, and I truly don't know which, but I'm like, I was locked in, especially when we get to the Jeff Britch's character, who's, like, his whole song is like, I can't really read or write. You're just like, yeah, cool. Exactly. This is probably the weakest song, fortunately. Yeah. It is a very hymn-coated song where he's like, I don't know, I love you. I can't write a poem. Yeah, and then we have this butterfly song during which the butterfly calls this unicorn a pickle-faced consumptive Mary Jane. I was like, what are you talking about, my friend? We just met.

It's weird. Yeah. It's true. It's weird. Yep. So the unicorn asks the butterfly if he has encountered any other unicorns on his travels. And the butterfly eventually reveals that a red bull has driven all of the other unicorns to the. ends of the earth, but she can find them if she's brave.

Was I the only, I felt like this is the coldest take of all, but like every time I heard, whenever Red Bull came up, I was like, he-he. No, same. It's, yeah. They didn't know, you know, but that's even something to talk about. Like, okay, years later, we have this drink that allocks a very specific type of energy in people. It was like, it brings out people's dark side.

All of a sudden, you want to entrap. in the ocean. The joke I kept trying to make in my head was like, what if there's like a knockoff version of this movie and rather than the Red Bull, it's like the monster energy drink. The Diet Rockstar is holding all the unicorns hostage. It's driven all the unicorns into the sea. Anyway, okay.

So the unicorn desperate to be with her people sets off on a journey to find them. She first comes upon a farmer who mistakes her for a horse because men slash humans or maybe specifically men can't see unicorns for what they are because they can't see their horns. But the farmer still likes her and he's trying to capture her, but she gets away and continues on. Then a traveling carnival finds the unicorn while she's sleeping on the side of the road. in comes one of my favorite characters. Mommy, here comes Mommy. Yes.

Mommy Fortuna. Mommy Fortuna. Yeah, and her brothel. The traveling brothel. Yes. She's a witch or a hag or something, voiced by Angela Lansberry, Killian. She has a colleague.

I don't know who this person is to her exactly, but this guy named Rook. Feels generous. And then. Then a wizard named Schmendrick, voiced by Alan Arkin, are like the traveling carnival. And Mommy Fortuna abducts the unicorn. And she can see that it's a unicorn. I thought that that was interesting, that it does seem to be like, yeah, they don't seem to be hard and fast rules, but it's mostly like men cannot see the beauty of the unicorn.

Mommy Fortuna can and chooses to exploit it. Yes. Yes. Yes, because what she does for her carnival is puts spells on old and or wounded animals to create the illusion for spectators that they are looking at like a mantacore or a dragon or some fantastical beast. But Schmendrick, the magician, can see the unicorn's horn and knows that she is in fact a unicorn and he wants to help her escape. Now, Mommy Fortuna has also captured a real harpy, which I had to look up what this is. I only knew Harpy in sort of like the derogatory, like, women context. Yeah, I didn't know that a harpy was a mythological creature.

I don't think that they, do they usually have three tities? Three boobs? I don't know. I don't know. Nor do I. But this one does. This one has three tities. Yeah.

And they're out. I was thrilled. They're out and about. I was like, I'm with her now. Yes. A feminist icon, the harpy. Yeah. The unicorn begs Mommy Fortuna to let her and the harpy go, but she refuses.

So Schmendrick tries different spells to try to free the unicorn. But at this point, he is a bit of a flop of a wizard. So none of his spells work. But he does have the keys. So he just unlocks her cage. and the unicorn frees the other animals, including the harpy, who kills Mommy Fortuna. Incredible. Amazing.

It's such a good death. She gives good death. Yeah. Arms wide. She died as she lived, a drama queen. Like, I was really, I was really rooting for the harpy to come back. But spoiler alert. I know.

This is the last we see of her, unfortunately. But I like how you framed that Hannah is like, you know, that's life. People come and go. True. So the unicorn and Schmendrick escaped together, and they head toward someone named King Haggard in his fortress, who seems to be in cahoots with the Red Bull. And I also like that Schmendrick is like, let me come with you.

And she's like, ugh, I guess. Yeah, they are sort of building like a Wizard of Oz style team. if the like if dorothy was like if you must if you must if you must right i love the unicorn she the things that many things i love about the unicorn but she never apologizes to really anybody unless she really means it sometimes people will be like oh i i must have worried you or whatever she's like you didn't no he was like don't worry she's like don't worry about it she's like i'm not yeah i was like whoa okay you know okay i would have been leveled if I got a comment like that from the unicorn, but Schmendrick takes it in stride.

Yeah. Then Schmendrick and the unicorn are separated when this guy named Captain Cully and his band of outlaws abduct Schmendrick. He does some magic for them. He like conjures Robin Hood and like a bunch of other people. And they're like, whoa, that's wild. But also Captain Kelly does not like it or something. or he feels threatened.

Captain Kelly famously of the have a taco. Have a Taco fame. And it was like the saddest thing of all. I don't think Schmendrick ever got his taco. No. No, he didn't. Instead, he gets tied to a tree which comes to life. I think it's because Schmendrick does magic on the tree and then.

I was not clear on that. Not sure. Or with the purpose of them. But also, I think maybe that foreshadow. okay here's my pitch because schmendrick's hole whenever he can get magic he is like too horny with it he just like conjures a hot lady and so maybe that was foreshadowing but that's what's going to happen to our friend the unicorn yeah he gets too horny close to the tree yeah I'm like was he trying to do something to free himself because he gets tied to this tree right and then he does magic

I think to try to escape but it just turns the tree into this like sexy big titty tree from new orleans all of a sudden yeah yeah and then there's no immortality but a tree's love it's like all right cool whatever right because the tree is like hubba hubba who's this i love him and then the unicorn shows up to save him from this tree that's smothering him with her Talk about born sexy, yeah, today. Today, right now. Yeah. And then Captain Cullies, his wife, Molly, grew.

Grew. Kind of links up with the unicorn and Schmendrick and confronts them in the woods. And she's tearfully saying, like, where were you when I needed you? Where have all the unicorns gone? And she offers to go with them to find King Haggard's fortress. I was so thrilled that Molly returned because I'd already adjusted to the idea of like, okay, you see a character once and then they're gone. But I love that Molly, I just, I really, up to a point, at some point, if like her character, the plot kind of forgets about her and she starts defending men for no reason. But there's a good chunk of the movie where she's, she's just, she's a girl's girl, she's a unicorn's girl.

And I really appreciated her. True. and she also knows the right direction to go in. She's like, you guys are fools, you're going the wrong way. We have to go this way to the fortress. So they've set off again. And they get pretty close to King Haggard's fortress. But then the Red Bull comes charging out and chasing the unicorn.

So Schmendrick uses his magic to turn her into a human so that the bull won't bother her. I'm now convinced that it's been established the only. only time Schmendrick can do magic, he's too horny with it. And this is how we end up with, oh, the scene is like devastating. It's really beautiful. Yeah, he turns her into a human woman who is naked because he's so horny with his magic. Yeah. And both the unicorn and Molly grew are like, what the heck have you done, Schmendrick? Why'd you turn her into a human? The unicorn hates her new human body, but Schmendrick is like, don't worry, it's fine, this is our only hope of getting you close to King Haggard. And then he names her Amalthea, and the three of them

arrive at the fortress and have a meeting with the sinister King Haggard, who is voiced by Christopher Lee, as well as his son, Prince Lear, voiced by the dude, aka Jeff Bridges. And the three of them kind of move into the castle. Shemendrick is like, I'll be your wizard. Molly grew will be the cook. Yeah, Molly just has to start working. I was like, what? Yeah.

Why can only Amalfia stay for free? It feels like there's a sinister, classist, looks-based hierarchy going on here. Very. Yeah. And then Prince Lear takes a liking to Amalthia. And he tries to show her how much of a hero he is. But he's kind of like Dadoi. Like he's like, I couldn't decide how I felt about Prince Lear.

I spent a good chunk. Once Prince Lear entered, I became full body terrified that she was going to be a woman forever. She's going to have to marry this guy whose only song is about how he can't write. Read and write. Yeah. It almost gets there. But then everyone's like, that's a horrible ending to this story. let's not do that.

And they're like, okay, exactly, let's do something else. But yeah, he's trying to show her how much of a hero he is. Amalthea is like, oh, so you killed a dragon that don't impress me much. And she is not into it. Also, this human body, it's no good for the unicorn. And she starts to kind of lose her sense of self. And she starts to forget what she's even trying to do at this fortress. Meanwhile, there's a pirate.

hat. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't ask any questions. And of course, he only speaks in riddles. Don't worry about it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. He knows that Amalthea is actually a unicorn.

And he tells Molly Gru how to find the red bowl so that they can defeat it. Except he doesn't tell them directly. He speaks in riddles. And this is when Molly Gru kind of enters her defending men story arc where she's like, come on. date Prince Lear and you're like ugh why why at least because I mean I feel like the the fear that you're seized by is like knowing how the little mermaid ends and knowing that she does choose to remain a person but at least that movie had the decency to make Prince Eric hot and charismatic

which I would say is not something that maybe not what I would say of Prince Lear necessarily the dude kind of a tough tough sell right he's a bit of a dud I would would not be changing species for him. No. But what I do like about this series of story beats is he's like, look how much of a man I am. Look at me besting ogres and slaying dragons and blah, blah, blah. And Amalthea is like, I don't give a single shit about that. And then he's like, okay, I'll change my tactic.

I'll write you a poem. And he's like, ugh. I don't have. He is bad at it. But that works for her. She's like, oh, you're, you're, you know, expressing your feelings and thoughts with your words and showing affection and clearly communicating with me. That works for me.

Not you slaying a bunch of dragons and shit. So I do like that. I'm not into it. I'm not into it. I'm like, we got to raise the bar. We got to raise the bar. I mean, sure. He's been a workshop.

Maybe. We can't be. I mean, look, this happens all the time. but marrying the first person who manages to sort of effectively communicate, it's like, come on, keep it coming. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree, but I. For the time, especially because this comes out well before the Disney Princess Renaissance, where we have very little of that.

Yeah, it is cool to see. Yeah, so the poem works on her and she likes him now, and then they kiss, and they're also singing a song at each other, and the song is not very good. then King Haggard approaches Amalthia to be like I know what you are you should join the other

unicorns that I have cast into the sea I love this scene because she's like so funny LOL no I'm not a unicorn but also oh my god what the fuck did you do

and he's like by the way he's not my son also I did this and then he says don't make fun of me And you're like, what the hell is this? I loved it. It was hilarious. Then Amalthia, Schmendrick, and Molly grew begin to follow the cat's riddle, starting with talking to a skeleton who is a whino. He is.

I don't know what's going on with him, but I love the skeleton. Yeah, couldn't have loved him more. It sounded like Nathan Lane maybe wasn't available, but like that was, what the performance was. I had the same thought. René Abbejvjvjvina. Oh, he's Odo on Deep Space Nine. Okay, that actually helps if you're a Star Trek head, which Peter Beagle was.

He wrote an episode of Star Trek TNG in the 90s. Very cool. Okay, so they're talking to the Skellington and he tells them that they need to walk through this big clock. so they do but then he narks on them the skeleton does and King Haggard starts chasing them

Prince Lear shows up to be like hey Amalthea I love you where are you going were you going to leave me and she's like no I love you too actually I don't even want to turn back into a unicorn anymore I'll just stay a human

and be with you Prince Lear and then everyone else is like what the fuck don't do that We have to say, we're on a quest to save the unicorns, let's keep going. I appreciate that. I mean, I know there's a lot of ways to view that, but I really thought that was a very effective story beat where it's like she has lost faith in herself and it almost seems like let me stay with what's easier or more comfortable.

And then. Her good friends are like, no. They're like, you are a unicorn. Even Prince dude is like, because that would be, you know, probably what would have made him more happy. But he's like, no, it's not. It's not how it goes. We got to get the Red Bull.

Yeah. We got to get the Red Bull. We got to get the Monster Energy drink. Yeah. Then the Red Bull, speaking of, shows up and starts chasing them. Shmendrick turns Amalthea back into a unicorn. And I'm not totally sure why he does this in this exact moment. But now the Red Bull is chasing her even harder.

Prince Lear is like, well, I'm a hero, remember? So I'll help. But then he gets knocked out immediately. I loved that. Then the unicorn decides to fight back against the Red Bull, and this seems to empower the other unicorns who had been trapped in the sea to reemerge. What a beautiful shot. I loved it.

And then the Red Bull is defeated. The unicorns escape from the water to their freedom, all while King Haggard's fortress crumbles to the ground. And I'm like, okay, a fantasy movie where Christopher Lee plays an evil man with a long white beard who lives in a sinister looking tower who is defeated at the end of the story. What is this Lord of the Rings, the two towers? Whoa. Yeah, it's true. It's true.

I do like that there's like a single shot of Prince Lear looking at where the castle crumbles and like, I don't know what is intended, but my head can. And he's like, oh, well, I got to find a new place to live. Oh no, all my stuff. It's gone. Yep. And then Prince Lear says goodbye to the others. The Danumal, if you will, is that Schmendrick is a true wizard now. Molly Gru is like, well, I'll just hang out with him because I left my husband.

Nothing for Molly Gru? Like, yeah. Okay. What the hell is her arc? Yeah, nothing. The unicorn. Doesn't even say goodbye. The unicorn, like, she doesn't, she doesn't do things to be nice.

She does what she needs to. Because Molly Gre's whole introduction is like, you haven't visited me since I was a girl. I'm so sad. The unicorn leaves without saying goodbye. Yeah. She just fucks off. What can you do? But because she has lived life as a mortal human for a while, the unicorn understands

feelings like love and regret. And she is grateful for that. And she's also grateful that the other unicorns have been liberated so that they can freely roam the world again. And then the movie ends with not the last unicorn anymore, just a unicorn, returning home to her forest. The end. Beautiful. So that's the story. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

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And we're back. Hannah, what's sticking out to you? Where would you like to start? There's so much. You know, I was like thinking, of course, of the queer subtext, because there's so much. I'm not sure about the author. Like, I feel like fantasy is a very interesting genre and that it really is actively plumbing, like, the universal, like, unconsciousness, you know? And archetypes. So what people are bringing in and what you bring to it.

So whatever, I wonder what as a child I was like so attracted to. And then as an adult, I was like, you know, immediately my mind goes, okay, what do unicorn signify that they are typically like, they are these creatures that only appear to virginal young women, which of course is a patriarchal myth. But there is something beautiful about that. They're very untouched. They're very like, you know, there is this lore around like men cannot see them. And that's why Molly grew so angry. She's like, I miss my chance. So I just, I love that.

I love that motif of who can see the unicorn. Of course, my mind immediately goes to like bisexual women. I was like, okay, what about this is like, like a bisexual woman. And the thing that always caught me, though, is like when she thinks, she's like, I'm I the last. I'm like, girl, you're in a forest by yourself. Like, did you not notice? You mean, there are no other unicorns around you?

Like, that was also a little weird to me. But, yeah, I felt like I started, I, once the unicorn thing stuck, I was like, okay, it's a bisexual story. This is about an enlightened bisexual, tried to find. And I was like, oh, the different people were like, I know what you are. And then the men who are like, no, you're just this, you know? Like that, there's something that felt very real about that. And even like she's kind of in this like menagerie twas with Schmendrick and Molly grew, you know, and how he's like, you know, like, you know, and how he's like, you brought up like the horny magic. There's so many places to go, but like there's definitely something about the sexual, like, he's constantly doing stuff around like the sex.

And it's like he's coming. He's like going from like a submissive soft boy who's not using his full power to someone who's empowered in that magic. So yeah, there's so many places. I don't know. I mean, well, yeah. Since Schmendrick can see the unicorn for what she is, and he is a man, or at least is coded that way, maybe it's just because he has magic,

the way that a lot of these other men don't, but he can see her. So like, what does that say about him? We don't have to answer that question right now, but just a thought. I love how open it is, though. I really enjoyed, I mean, We talked about this many, many, many moons ago when we covered The Little Mermaid of how there is,

you know, a queer reading of The Little Mermaid as well. And I feel like the, I don't know, these stories are so entwined. And it's like, we don't really know what the intention is, but it doesn't really matter. Like, and I found this letterboxed legend, Sally Jane Black, who writes a lot about, queer and trans representation in movies reviewed this movie and sort of said we can link it in the description but said something similar that I feel like is you know connected to why we talk about the Bechtel test in the first place where the themes in this movie really resonated with a lot of people and a lot of kids but a lot of queer and trans kids as well and how like when you watch

the movie I mean it makes total sense and also that there was not other representation present in media and how this movie really appealed to Sally Jane Black as a kid because, you know, she didn't feel like she was seeing that kind of discomfort and frustration expressed in other children's media and was really drawn to it. So I've, there's a lot that's been written about this movie. And I mean, everyone's perspective on it. I don't know. It's just that's like what's great about fantasy is it's so open that like you can, you can, you know, You can find yourself in one of these characters. Yeah.

I find myself in the skeleton. You're the Wino skeleton. I really appreciated Molly Gru. I think it was like just that her introduction. I mean, the unicorn, obviously. We're all trying to be the unicorn. But I do think I'm more of a Molly Gru type. But like her, I don't know,

that like an adult woman's like sadness and frustration and feeling like something is passed her by and like but then also wanting to be a part of the unicorn's life and to help her however she can i really appreciated how how quickly i guess both of like both molly and schmendrick just totally bailed on their previous communities that weren't serving them and they're like yeah no i'm going unicorn mode like molly in particular because it seems like she's maybe lived with these like guys eating tacos her whole life And she's just like, see ya. Like she emerges from behind a tree.

She's like, yeah, they were chasing a ghost. Like, I was, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to chase a unicorn. I just, the, the friendship was, and it could have gone so many ways. I don't know. Like, I appreciate how, how much this movie sort of pushes back on, like, I guess what I think of is, like, recognizable, like, Disney fairy tale style tropes. It's more complex than that. Yeah.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. This is definitely for the child. who, you know, is already, like you were saying, like, kind of feeling, like, left out. There is something, like, I just think there's a lot of children, whether it's queerness or neurodivergence or whatever it is, where you're not quite, there's something, you're not, you're like, there's like a gap here that I'm not quite getting, you know, and I think you kids know who they are.

And so they start, you start to pick that up. And I think these kind of tales, like, really appeal to that feel. and appeal to you finding your people. And it's just also like, oh, it's like a struggling magician who, you know, he's trying, but it's not happening. Mommy Fortuna's like not a great boss, right? She's like illegal. Like basically, I was like, this is like sex trafficking, right?

Like she's like. She's a trafficker. Yeah. Yeah. Like she's just like, yeah. And then with the heartbeat, she's like, I know you're going to kill me one day. Like, I know. But I'll be immortal too because.

I'll, you know. I'm leaving a legacy. I'll be the only one. Yeah. And I was like, that's such an interesting. And I like that it was like, it wasn't her femininity, right? She's still evil, right? Unfortunately, she's a witch.

Like, I wish we could have had a context for a positive witch representation. But I appreciated that a lot. I was trying to figure out what to make of Mommy Fortune. Because she is like very classic hag tropes are applied to. this character and she's exploiting like all the creatures around her. And I was like, okay, I guess you could read this as like a woman who's not an ally to other women. If we kind of consider the unicorn and the harpy as like women-coded characters, because

there are many women like that. and she is perfectly willing to exploit other women. So I'm just like, maybe that's what they're trying to do. I don't know, again, was this intentional? Did Peter S. Beagle have a strong understanding of these things? I don't know. Peter S. Beagle, speaking of Peter S. Beagle, because I, he is, he's quite old now. He's in his 80s, but he is still alive with us and logged in.

and in fact, just an hour ago, as we're recording this, posted a picture of the giant titi tree. So he's still locked in. He captions it, the trees know how to let go beautifully. Maybe we can too. And it is just a still of the magician motorboating the tree. But whatever. Based on what I, because I read a number of interviews with Peter Aspiegel.

I mean, he's definitely an act. I think he keeps his own, his business, his business. But he has posted another, I mean, he posts for Pride Month every month. He's a very vocal supporter of his queer fans. And also just very, I don't know, I feel like fantasy novelists are like uniquely good with like interacting with their fan base as well. Because I think about how much like George R.R. Martin comes to mind immediately of just like someone who very openly interacts with his fans and all that. But Peter, Peter Beagle, from what I can see, he seems to be like a very lovely person who, who almost like doesn't really offer a lot of explanations on the various interpretations of his work, unlike some perhaps evil fantasy writers out there. Oh, turfy, transphobic ones.

Yeah. Yeah. But I appreciated in like going through these interviews with him that he's like, it means whatever you think it means. You know, like, and because that's like, you know, being a fantasy writer, being a, especially a writer who's writing for children, it's like, you're not going to tell a kid what it means. I really, yeah, appreciated his sort of outlook on that because this was a book that was published in the 60s and then. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's published in 68 and then was later adapted by, it was so interesting. This was almost adapted by the animation company that did the Peanuts television specials.

And then jumped over to Rankin Bass who are all over the place. I don't know. Like, Rankin, I don't really understand what would make Rankin'Bass do something versus not do it, because it's so all over the place. But I really loved it. I don't know. Yeah. And then just a few years ago in 2023, Peter Beagle published, I think it's two novellas

that take place in the same world as The Last Unicorn called The Way Home. He, like, revisited this world. I think a lot of the same characters make appearances, particularly Schmendrick, Molly Gru, and I think Prince Lear are in these two novellas. I don't know much beyond that, but listeners, if you like this world and you like these characters, those books might be worth checking out.

I can't get over that he posted the Titty Tree an hour ago. Like, what a way to find. out someone is still alive. It's like still kicking. That is so funny. Amazing. Yeah. And that scene, you know, was very, again, like, I feel like subcoded, you know.

I mean, just like, it reminded me of, I'm a big, like, Wonder Woman fan. William Moulton Marston is a creator of Wonder Woman. And he actually, during his lifetime, he had, like, two wives. They all lived, like, in the same house. And he was in a very interesting relationship of, like, feminine empowerment. And like when you see like Wonder Woman of like the lasso and she's always getting like tied up, it's like very kink coded. And it's the point where his like bosses like the comic book were like, you need to stop. Like it's getting out of hand.

We get what you're doing. No one's fooled. So there is something to be said about like again, I just couldn't like go. I was like, once I had the bisexual thing, I was like, I was going to go with it. I'm like, she is a bisexual. And there's even this part where. Prince Lear. Like I also love to see like what people's desire, like how they interacted with her, right? So it's like Schmendrick is like, you're going to give me a chance to prove my magic.

Molly Gru has like her coming, her late coming of age. Prince Lear kind of wants to possess her, is in love with her, but also doesn't really understand what she is. King Hager definitely wants to possess her and just like drive her into the ocean. And I was like, oh, this is a very interesting relationship to bisexuality. And I think it mirrors the life. I know there's a point where he says, Prince Larry's like, he actually says the word mermaid. He's like unicorn, mermaid, sorceress. I love who I love.

Yeah. You know, and I thought that that was very telling about her own journey and what she had to, like, his, that was like kind of his. bisexual awakening pansexual awakening I think so I think so so I just I love that she was just this mirror to other people's stuff

and that she didn't that's so beautifully put I really I don't know this damn unicorn she like she is like this mirror to the people who she meets along the way but doesn't like submit to anyone's

vision of who she is which part of why I think it's so cool when, you know, Prince, dude, Prince Lear and Schmendrick and Molly all say, like, no, you can't just stay a human now. You need to like finish your journey because they wouldn't have been able to do that if they hadn't met her. And I like that they had like a vested interest in being like, now you need to, you know, go on your journey and be who you are. And, yeah, that that moment where Prince Lear just accepts her and is like whoever, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So he has his awakening. And I just love that this movie offers kind of a non-prescriptive version of what love looks like,

where it does still feel like it is a love story between the unicorn and Prince Lear, but, you know, they can't be together. But they love each other. And, you know, again, it's like I, adore the Little Mermaid and always will, but that's like if we're holding the two beside each other, the Disney version of the Little Mermaid, obviously not the original version, um, right, ends in this very, you know, kind of prescriptive, cis-normative version of love and happiness. And the last unicorn goes a completely different direction and it's like really affecting.

Yeah. It kind of goes in like a Pocahontas direction, where it's, like, you know, like the male character, he's going to be changed by his interaction, but he never gets to possess, you know, and because she would have been changed, right? And she's like, she sings at home, probably one of the weakest songs, honestly. Now I'm a woman. Yeah. Because I love the America, like, songs, Man's Road and The Last Unicorn. The Last Unicorn.

I can listen to that. Like, it's just, and it's just, I find it a beautiful. beautiful, you know, and it's definitely like a good, like, workout if you want to kind of, you know, run and feel like your opening to like this new vista. That's amazing. Like you are, you become the unicorn. Yeah, you do. You really do. And it's like how he talks about the unicorn.

Like, oh, she's kind of worn, but she's still there. But, um, yeah, I found, I felt like they had a, they're also blonde men, which is interesting. So they have blonde men who are kind of sheltered in their worldview. who have this like entry interaction with a feminine aspect, which is outside of their understanding of what life is and then they are changed. But then it's also like, but you're not going to get to be together, right? And her also like from a unicorn to a woman and then her immediately hating her, you know, her immediately being like, oh my God, I can feel this thing dying.

Like, I don't want to be this, you know. And Molly Gru also really understood that moment. Like that was a very telling moment. I don't think I understood the significance of as a child is really what the movie is saying about immortality. And what it's saying about archetypes of energy. And so like there's that part. We talked about the harpy, the three-breasted, half woman, half bird. But when she's like, you, we are pop.

to the same magic, who were two sides of the same. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's like, you have the unicorn who kind of represents the virginal, untouched, mystical, female. And then you have, like, the heartbeat, right? Who is like, you put a harpy anywhere. She's going to ruin some shit, right?

She even tries to kill a unicorn. At one point. She was like, yeah, you just freed her. Yeah, so it's like, but they're the same. She's like, we're the same. And even the unicorn is like, I have to free her. I can't let her, lit this energy. be caged, you know? And I thought that that was also interesting is that she wasn't in competition.

She didn't name her as evil. She was like, she too deserves to be free in this world. Yeah. I just, yeah, the unicorn's approach to, I feel like I've not really seen a lot of movies in general, but like especially children's movies that have a character that is quite like her where I'm like, maybe this is just how I'm trained to view. I don't know, like, protagonists of children's movies or, like, women and children as they're presented in media in general. But, like, I was always very pleasantly surprised, I guess, when the unicorn, you know, with the heartbeat example of, like, she respects and sees the harpy, but doesn't feel that she owes her anything. And it's not like they have to, you know, they're going to Oz or where, you know, like the idea that like they meet, they see each other. have a strong respect and understanding of each other, and then they can move on.

It's just like not something I've seen very often ever. I feel like, yeah, there is this feeling that every character you meet, you're like, okay, now I will, you know, we have to take care of each other now or whatever it is, but it's just this very, I don't know, it almost feels like a religious figure that we get in the unicorn where she just releases, you know, the creatures that she encounters. And then there's other characters that I'm like, what's going on with the pirate cat? I don't know.

I wouldn't know a thing about that. I like it. I love it. I liked it. I was like, I'm not complaining. No, I do believe. I think fantasy is very, makes its home with that. And that, again, it can have that feeling of, like,

the Western canon is very like, you know, hero's journey, right? It's a set of initiation points, really. That's all it is. And then you move. to the end, but I did appreciate that, like, again, I felt this mimicked life. Sometimes you meet these very strange characters in your life, and you know, sometimes you're like, I'm never going to talk to this person ever again, but they will, you'll think about them like years later, you know, maybe for the rest of your life about this thing.

Like, they just almost gave you this jewel. And I feel like fantasy is really a good place to deal with that, like the randomness of life, the magic of life. I also love Schmendrick's journey because I think it really is about like becoming more in control of your sex magic, you know. Yeah. At first he's like, magic, do as you will. And it's like, that's not a good spell. You know, you're going to need to bring.

You need to be more specific, perhaps. Yeah, more specific and be more grounded and he gets better over time, you know. So I'm like, oh, like there's just, there's just so much happening with their journeys and with like what magic. means. I think what struck me that when I first wrote about it a couple years ago was Molly grew about the midlife awakening that we don't really talk about. And I wish that she got a better arc. Yeah. When I watched it again, I was like, yeah, she kind of just like cleans and gives little tidbits, but there's really no change. I'm like, what would her arc be? Like, what would her new, like, she's clearly like, she has been changed.

changed from this experience, but what does she change into? Like, was that just too much for the creators of this film to, like, hold? You know, because everyone else has a very marked arc except for her. To the extent where Peter Beagle admits that he, like, forgot question mark or just, like, didn't bother with writing much of a, like, detailed background for that character and how he was grateful that the voice actor, Tammy Grimes, who voices Molly grew, brought life to the character on screen because he's like, whoops, I kind of forgot to, you know, give her any characterization in the story. So the author acknowledged that she's, but, but I think she's a character who we can

easily identify with. And I do wish that there was more context given to like, what compels her to leave her husband and go on this journey. We can, you know, make assumptions, but I feel like there could have been more, just more writing around that. And then, like, I would have liked to see more about, like, okay, well, what does she, what is she longing for that maybe gets fulfilled by the end of the story or something?

Yeah, I would also, I mean, I just wanted a place for her to land more than, anything where it's like like you're saying like schmendrick like there there is a clear end to everyone's arc but we don't really know i mean she if what she all she wanted was to reconnect with this unicorn and like the if if in this context the unicorn represents like innocence in childhood and like feeling this feeling of infinite possibility she's made that connection but but she doesn't even get a goodbye like it's and we don't really know like where does she go from here we know that she's liberated herself from it seems like this you know bunch of losers she was spending her life with which is like a reward in itself but it's like i almost i don't know i yeah

like i just i think if we just do a little bit more about her but i was i was also very like touched by the performance and frustrated i think once once she gets to the castle she just sort of is like i like the prince you're being mean to the prince stop yelling at schmendrick and i'm I was like, wait, but this is your girl. Like, come on. I do appreciate that she is, I would say, more active than Amalthia in the back half of the story, at least, because she's, I don't even know if she seeks that cat out, but the cat's there.

And she's like, okay, well, where do I find the red bull? And he gives his little riddle. And then it's Molly who is like, okay, we got to go find the red bowl. like what are we doing here even? So I appreciate that at least she is given some agency and is able to make some active choices that propel the story forward in a way that I'm not even sure they would have been propelled forward if left to like Amalfia's devices

because she's just like, well, I guess I'm content to stay here with Prince Lear, who I love now, I guess. And I want to talk more about that too because someone mentioned earlier about like, well, is that sort of metaphorical for a woman whose sort of agency has been stripped from her and is kind of on the brink of giving up? Or like, what does that mean? Why does she, why is she content to sort of abandon her journey of finding the other unicorns and finding her people and just being content to live as a mortal human.

human with this guy who she just met who doesn't know how to really identify with her. I had a feeling about that that I don't know. Maybe it's again like being overly forgiving of what could have been a story plot. But that that's like right where that's the moment where either you're like, okay, this is the moment where it becomes the little mermaid or it doesn't. Like Disney's the little mermaid. Right. And it doesn't. I really, I don't know. It's not my favorite story beat, but I almost like interpreted that moment of her. It was like a fear-based decision. Like she was, I don't know, whatever, two things being true at once. She does really love and care for Prince Lear. And staying in this forum with him is the easy choice in this moment. It's the choice that allows her

to not go through the difficult process of understanding who she really is and not confront the big bad and you know not do all these things that are important to do but also terrifying and i don't know i i i kind of not liked it but like i i feel like that that was how i read it and that her friends who she you know who had found themselves by knowing her were like no you need to give this to yourself and we support you like whoever you know however this ends we support you and we love you So I kind of liked that the story built up that chance for her to have a moment of fear and weakness and be supported anyways. True. Yeah.

Because she was like deeply unmoored by her transformation, you know. And I think like any transformation, you start to sometimes forget like who you are and what your purpose is. And, you know, you do the easier thing. You do the thing that is most accessible in that moment. And it's also like both like a trope wise, right? Like, okay, just have her be rescued by this prince and live happily ever after in the castle. And it's like all written for you, right? You have to take a very different types of action.

Like even when, you know, the, I think it's Molly grew at the point. It's like, you can fight back. Like, you don't have to just like take what the Red Bull is doing. And I also felt like there again, I always kept on because of the bisexual thing, it was just like very much there. like don't forget your other bisexuals, you know? This is not just you. This is also like when you remember who you are, you're helping these like other bisexuals be free from this place that they've been placed in.

And I also thought King Haggard was very interesting in his like reasoning. He was just like, yeah, they're like the only thing that makes me happy, you know. And I felt like a young, in spite of my old age. I'm like, oh, that's what men say when they, like, want to sexually harass, like, a very young woman. Like, oh, she made me feel young, you know? And it's this vicarious, like, he's bleaching this energy from this place. But he can't, of course, let them be free. He has to cage them in some way.

They have to be under his control. And he knows what she is. Like, at first he's kind of like, oh, I don't know. When she first comes to the castle, but then he's like, you betrayed yourself with the way you move and you just. do this and you do that. So yeah, I was just like, yeah, this is, this is very, there is to me, like, a very potent, like, sexual energy. And then what happens is, like, you know, he falls to his death, you know, and we're all happy for it. Yeah. So I, yeah, I just, I still very much, like, appreciate what it's saying. And I think that it's, it's doing something very complex,

like that kids may not understand, but it's, it's laying the ground. work for like the Pocahontas, the Moana, right? Like, kind of like the Disney spaces where it's not just you end up with the dude, right? Those are the two that I can really see that that happened in. Right. And I don't think that's an accident. Yeah. Yeah.

To go back to the unicorns transformation too, in the story, her transformation is like thrust upon her. It's Shmendrick being like, oh, my God. I have to do something to save her. I'll turn her into a human so that the Red Bull doesn't care to be bothered with her. Versus, again, if we're going to compare this to the Little Mermaid, Ariel seeks out her own transformation. She goes to Ursula. She says, I want to be a human. Her motive is, you know, questionable.

But also, you know, she has the agency. She's like, I want something. I'm going to go for it. And I, you know, even if it is to, and she's 16. It is that she wants to be with this man who she saw one time. But again, she's a teenager. The point is she seeks out her own transformation versus in The Last Unicorn. Again, that transformation to human form and like being a mortal is thrust upon Amalthea slash the unicorn.

And it starts to destroy her. Again, she's like losing her memory. She's losing her sense of self. I feel like you could read that possibly as like, you know, whatever gender roles or rigid expectations that a patriarchal society thrusts upon women and everyone, but how it like tears you down and breaks you apart. And she then, I do wish that, because Shemendrick just kind of randomly changes her back into a unicorn, sort of in the middle of the final like Red Bull battle. I wish there was maybe like narratively something more significant that like,

is a catalyst to get her to turn back or that she is like, I want to turn back and she does it herself or something. Maybe that's just kind of weak storytelling. They're like, we have five minutes to end the movie. Oh, we got to do. She has to be a unicorn again. How do we do it? But it isn't until she does transform back into her like true self that she's able to then fight back against the Red Bull. I don't even know what happens to her. She just sort of like intimidates him. into the sea and then he like dies question mark and then that liberates all of the other unicorns but yeah i i think that that like the thing thrust upon you versus you having the agency to seek it out yourself and these two different stories i find very interesting yeah yeah and there is

that space too for that like that it was a very the the transformation was very sudden so like oh you could have done this the whole time i guess but here we are um but the an interesting thing about like the unicorn is that it's always been like kind of a queer-coated entity because it's this like beautiful white horse kind of going of like horse lore but then it has this like phallic symbol right of like a horn and it's like she remembers that oh I have this horn you know and that's kind of what she uses to like fight back so it's like her acknowledging all that she has in that moment which I also felt like that was her like kind of like a more complete space. She was, she knew to fight against the heartbeat.

I mean, she kind of was using the horn there. But maybe she didn't think that her horn had enough juice to, you know, for the Red Bull, but then realized it. And then he just kind of like, it's like, oh, all right. And kind of bows down and it just goes to the ocean. I wouldn't really know what happens to him. And then that's the end. And I also felt like it was interesting to me to like, okay, King Haggard can't fight.

He doesn't, his name is Haggard, right? He's like not, life is sucked out of him. So he has to rely on this other entity. And I'm like, oh, that's like toxic masculinity. Like, it's like when, you know, you don't have the power in yourself. So you have to have these like kind of henchmen do the thing for you. And then with the bull, my bulls typically signify, they're like toxic masculinity in tourist form. You know, very controlling.

very stubborn, very domineering. Speaking as a tourist, can confirm. You know, like, you know, we all have our un-evolved, like, quote-unquote, shadow sides of our signs. And that is the bull, right? And red, which is also interesting, you know, war. So there's a lot going on with the symbology of how he himself can't do it, but he has to rely on this other entity to do it. and that it's unicorns yet again, you know, that are, that are there. And yeah, I just, I just love this film so much.

It's doing so, it's so deep. And that, that, you both make excellent points. I just, this, oh, I love this movie. I do think, I hadn't really thought about, like, yeah, how Ariel really does spearhead her own transformation, whereas, and, and that in that read, they both end in the, form that was like their heart's desire and they saw their their journey through and that's really beautiful and i'm so curious i mean i i didn't look into what happens in the like the newer stories but i'm like i want to know it i i feel like you sort of have an idea of where the unicorn and

where schmendrick's story is heading from there but i'm like what happens to molly and what happens the prince lear where where does he go from here does he like take a writing class. I hope. Does he, I hope so. That would be a fun continuation of his story. He finished that symphony he was complaining about.

I don't know. Yeah, the more we talk about it, the more I fall in love with the movie. It's really cool. And I hope it's the sort of thing. I mean, I watched it on Tobe,

but I hope that it's still finding an audience today. I haven't heard much about it. but I don't know, I'm going to show it to my niece the next time I see her. I think she'll love it. Yeah, I'd be curious to know, like, I think there are certain films on like, okay, when kids like it, what is this again saying about their own understanding of the world? Because we don't really have that now. I mean, the animation, I think, in this film is like so beautiful.

Yeah. It's like very artistic. I mean, there's this one scene where it's like there's like some kind of sunset and there's like mountains and they're catching all the refracting, a light. that happens when, you know, you see snow and, like, a sunset. And I'm like, you don't see that level. Like, that level of animation, like, they were really taking kids seriously. And I think that's the thing I read about it is, like, this is a film where kids are taken

seriously. They're not pandering to you. They're not, I mean, they have, like, some kind of off-collar jokes. But it's very, like, we are going to present this story to. we're not going to tie it up of a neat boat. So I feel like it's just very much like someone being on, like really seeing kids as equal, you know. And that's another thing that I deeply appreciate about this film.

Yeah, this movie doesn't shy away from something that, I mean, I guess it depends on the quality of movie. And it's like, of course, there were crummy, condescending animated movies coming out in the 80s as well. But I really appreciated how much this movie does. not shy away from like a feeling of profound loneliness. I feel like stories like those are so appealing to a lot of kids, feeling out of place and feeling just like alone and like you're busy. I don't know. Like a lot of the things that I was drawn to when I was a kid were stories like that,

of stories of feeling isolated and stories of feeling like you had to, there was some sort of like fight to understand yourself and be who you were. and I don't know. Yeah, there are so many moments of, from heroes and villains in this story of profound loneliness. And I feel like there's a pretty clear understanding that King Haggard, I mean, is doing this horrible thing because he doesn't understand himself. He doesn't know how to find joy in a way that isn't oppressive. And, and he's clearly so lonely. And you see that like similar qualities in the friends and it, that, find each other and I just I don't know I feel like loneliness is such a big part of being a kid and

movies that really don't shy away from that and don't say like whatever just make a friend which is I think how like more sort of talk down to you kind of media does is really impactful and like it sticks with you through throughout your life yes is there a more chosen family than the unicorn schmendrick and Molly grew it's it's a weird little family. Yes. Or Manac Choir, maybe both. But, you know, it's like, it's definitely chosen community.

It very much reminds me of like, you know, the, yeah, the first Muppet movie. Yes. Where Kermit is going on and like, he's just gathering people like a team. And it's like, yeah, you'll do. Yeah. You know, why don't you come along? And yeah, I love that. And she's just like, yeah, this is, this is chill.

This is fine. But, you know, she's on her own. journey, but her journey is what awakens them to theirs. But I would, I mean, I hope that if, you know, Peter Beagle, like, if he, you know, keeps going with this, I would love to see what he would imagine of Molly grew. Like, what would her space be, like, from there? Like, does she stay with Shemendrick? Or she's like, you know, just kind of getting old. Like, I need to kind of get my own stuff together. Like, yeah, does she meet up with the unicorn again? Yeah, I really want to see. I think that what's very interesting about fantasy is, you know, here you have this universe where you can do anything, right?

All the rules are off the table. You can make trees have boobs. You can have a harpy with three breasts. You can have a red bull that gathers unicorns in the sea. But we don't quite have the imagination to think of an older woman who goes on her own journey. Like that is a sticking point. And it's like, oh, wow. So it just shows just how.

And that's, I think, a big critique for a lot of fantasy, especially men, writers, is like, okay, so you can imagine people speaking elfish, but not like a woman having agency. Like, that's so interesting, like, where the imagination can just shut down. And so I would really love to see what happens because, like, that was a part that definitely when I rewatched it, sometime in my late 20s, I was just so struck by Molly Grood. But I literally had to show my sister. I was like, and she was like, it's so real. You know, that part of when you feel like life has passed you by,

but then getting a chance to do something different. But we don't really get to see that different. So I think that that's an opening. Maybe people who are into fan fiction can take that story into a different space. Because I do think it could be a really beautiful story because she literally just goes to the castle. And most of the scenes that we see her, again, she's defending the men or she's cleaning, you know?

And I'm like, that doesn't seem. I think she has more, clearly has more fight than that, more smarts than that. Where, where is she going? Yeah, I feel like that's not who he meant at the, because I just like, oh, I was so taking with her. Because I mean, even her first line to the unicorn being, where have you been? You're just like, oop. Like, it just like hits you. And then she just sort of laughs at men's faces for a good 20, 30 minutes.

And she does pet the cat. And the cat's like, yeah, do that. Oh. And you're like, all right, all right, Mr. Beagle, whatever you say. Why not? This is silly, but I was like, Molly Gru, is she an ancestor of Gru? You know, I thought the same thing.

You know, it's like the Minionverse, the Minion verse. I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe Molly Gru has, you know, I kind of, I need to rewatch the rise of grew. I kind of forget. the origin story. Maybe she is an ancestor of grew a very powerful wizarded his own right or something. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? I mean, this is such a rich text. And I feel like I'm probably missing stuff, but that was kind of all I had. Yeah. Oh, I did have something about the America doing the soundtrack. I thought that that was really telling. If you listen to the lyrics of the song, there is a clear, like, climate change, you know, a thread that's happening. And you kind of can see, like, where she's going. And then when she goes to Caggart, it's, like, completely, like, wasteland, you know?

And so that was a part that I'm like, oh, like, it's like the last unicorn, bisexual awakening and or climate change optimism about, you know, releasing these unicorns from the sea. But there are songs, especially Man's Road and The Last Unicorn, definitely have like a climate. Like, everything's desolate. But then we see the unicorn is there. It's that it's a sign that there is still yet life. So that was something. It's almost like Loraxy a little bit.

Yeah, like the final tree seed. Yeah, I didn't make that connection. Yeah. Everything else I have were just like lines that I was like, huh? In a fun way where when King Haggard fires his old. magician or whatever he's like this guy's kind of a magician's magician but maybe he's too good at magic he's fired everything king haggard does like he is a villain whose villainy spreads from like loneliness but also just boredom and so it's funny i liked the magician's magician

um just like a comics comic yeah exactly i liked the random just really good character names across the board. Characters that we meet once and never again include Jack Jiggly and Willie and Willie Gentle. And your amazing name. They are two of the guys who are ostensibly eating tacos and then they follow the ghost of Robin Hood or whatever. You're just like, fantasy is fun.

Fantasy is like it's your brain is both very on and very off at the same time. And it's just like a very specific frequency. Yes. You need that duality. Yeah. I need that duality. Yeah. The butterfly?

Butterfly. I mean. A legend. I think. I don't know. Right. Is he? I don't know.

It seems like he just like listens to other songs and then recites them at people. But then he also knows it about the Red Bull and what the unicorn needs to do to find her people. Riddles. Riddles. My mom kind of. There was one point where I was I was watching this with my fiancé and I turned to And I was like, this is how my mom texts. My mom texts in riddles.

And so sometimes like, I've had this conversation before. My mom is very the butterfly coded where she's like sort of insulting you, sort of complimenting you. And it's a series of incoherent riddles. And I love that. Shout out Jill. The butterfly and the cat should be friends. Yes.

They should. Besties. And then the, oh, the skeleton. Yeah, maybe all three. I would love. Maybe that's another fanfic. you know, just them. Yeah.

That would rock. That would just them anywhere, doing anything I would love. Yeah. Well, the movie does pass the Bechtel test. It does. Between the unicorn and Molly grew, especially in that scene where Molly grew is like, where were you when I needed you? Later, she does tell Amalthia when she's like in her human form.

And she's like, why are you so cruel to Prince Lee? year. Yeah, there's a few exchanges. I was hoping there might be more, but there's a few. But as far as the one true metric, the last metric, if you will, the Bechtelcast nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give this maybe like three and a half. I don't know. I'm a bit flummoxed still by some of the things. But I think as far as, you know, interpretations and readings of this movie, because it's so open to so many things, I really appreciate that. I do appreciate that it subverts a lot of like Disney princess tropes and kind of examines what happens to a character, a unicorn when she's isolated and is not with her people and doesn't have her community. I mean, we don't know a lot about her. her backstory or general unicorn lore in this specific world. Like, are unicorns generally solitary creatures? And that's why she doesn't notice that she's the last one. Or did she used to have a unicorn family? If so, what happened to them?

So there's a lot we don't know about her. I feel like the female characters overall in this story could have been better characterized, but there's still a lot of interesting things going on here. Also, again, the thing with her physical transformation into human form, that being something that wasn't her choice and how it makes her sort of lose her sense of self and then she has to regain it. You know, all these interesting themes. She's complex. She's complex. I love her chosen family.

And I love all these random side characters that pop in. and out. So I will give, I'll give it three and a half nipples. And we see so many nipples in the movie, such as the harpies, three nipples. So I'll give, I'll, I'll give one to the unicorn, one to the harpy, one to the tree with boobs. My half nipple can be shared by the cat and the skeleton, my two favorite characters. I'm feeling a four. I don't know. I'm like, I'm like, why not? My heart is open. I feel like a unicorn prancing through.

Beautiful. I'm going for. I think that this movie, I liked everything about it, I think. I'm docking it mainly for its lack of cohesion on Molly's part. Molly is my favorite character.

Sorry to the unicorn, but Molly takes it for me. I just was like so moved. And like you said, Hannah, I mean, there's so few representations, especially in children,

media of like a woman having an awakening in middle age. I feel like most often we just see stock moms or hags. And we do see a hag here, but she's a complicated hag. She's a complicated hag. She is. Yeah. I just like,

I love what this movie is doing. I'm going to dock it for not giving Molly her, you know, the full arc that she deserved. But outside of that, I just, um, I was very,

I was laughing. I was crying. And I really appreciated it. So I'll go four nipples. I'm giving one, two. I'm going to give two to Molly. I'm going to give three to Molly. Like the harpie.

Wow, like the harpies three nipples. And then I'll give the unicorn. I mean, the unicorn is she's good. She's good. I am going to give my final one to, I think, Mommy, because, you know. Mommy Fortuna. Mommy Fortuna. Because, again, just another perfect character name.

And perfect, even when the voice cast, like, even when the voice. the voice performances were weird, I still loved it. You can tell that everyone is in a booth in a different state weeks apart, but that's animation maybe. They read the script and they're like, I don't really know what's happening. I'm not convinced Jeff Bridges read the script, maybe. Yeah, I don't think so. But that's okay. He may not know what happens in this movie to this day. But I, yeah, so four from me. Hannah, what do you say? Yeah, I'm also going to give it four nipples, mainly again for the Molly Gru, but I give it four nipples for what it's saying without saying, the way that it takes children seriously,

its art direction, and this very strange tale that, you know, they just go with it. And I really appreciate that. But yes, I think the main thing was I would have loved to see more from Molly grew more of her arc. I think it could have gone in some really exciting places. I also felt like Prince Lear could have been given a little bit, little oomph, you know, I appreciate the effort. But I think there could be more there. But yeah, I just, this is still such a classic for me. And so if I was going to assign the nipples, I have to give one to Mommy Fortuna, any woman with, I mean, you know, it's like kind of madams, like when you're using your power to, you know, like she wasn't, she wasn't a sex positive, right? She was trickery and filters and all kinds of things.

But I appreciate her ambition and that she knew she was going to die. She was like, yeah, like, I'm giving myself to this. And it was, I just, you know, like she didn't run. Like she just stood there, right? And so I appreciate that. I give one to her. I give one to the unicorn. I appreciate her being like just really on her own shit and going on her own way.

And then, you know, she could have stayed in the forest, but she left, right? And she was brave. So I love that. I'll give one to Molly, you know, and I pray that she uses that nipple to awaken further in her own life. And then my final nipple, I'm going to give it to, I mean, I'm going to give it to the tree. It was short, but it was powerful. And it was definitely a scene that I never forgot. Memorable.

So, yeah. And there was also a part where, I probably should have brought this up earlier, but it was my own thing. I'm like, when it's not like, he's kind of nestled in between the, um. Her bosoms. The boobs. But I didn't, I thought at first it was ass. I thought he was like she like had. And then she changed.

And I was like, oh, okay, it's a chest now. But it very much looks. Yeah, it looked like a kicked up tree at first. Like he was just like, and I was like, this is a very dumb kind of thing going on here. Yeah. So I have to get, yeah. So, yeah, that's where I give my, my nipples to.

Amazing. Incredible. Thank you so much for joining us for this discussion. It was a blast. And for bringing us this movie. I'm just like, a classic. Come back anytime. Thank you for having me.

It's been a joy. And I haven't talked about this. movie in years. So yeah, it is. I'm actually curious as like when this episode goes live, like who resonates and what does it bring up now, you know, because I think Molly Grus was supposed to be like 38 in the film. Oh my God. So very specific age. And I'm like, yeah, it's like perimenopause. It's very like, what the fuck was I doing in my 20s? It spilled over to my 30s, but I'm waking up, but also is it too late? And clearly it's not. It's not too late. So. So I would love to definitely have a discussion with people who loved it and how does it fit, you know, like, who are they now that were, that like the film was foretelling.

Like, this is the direction you're going, you know, like, you were going to be someone who is into psychedelics and anime-inspired art and complex storytelling. So, yeah, it's something that I'm interested to see when this episode aired. Yeah, listeners. Drop your thoughts on our Instagram post or I think you can comment on various podcast listening platforms these days. So share your thoughts. Oh, yeah. Where can people follow you online? Check out your work.

Check out your writing. Plug away. Yeah. So the first place would just be my website, hanaoecho.com. That's where I keep multiple. everything going. I also am on Instagram at hana. .echo. And that's kind of my like, my own like unicorn journey, like just posting kind of what's going on. And I write at

hannahecho writes.subsect.com under this is where I keep my mouth. So that's kind of where I keep my projects that I'm moving through, sometimes more finalized, sometimes not. But yeah, that's where you can. can find me, those three places. Amazing. You can find us on Instagram and our Patreon, aka the Matrion, where for $5 a month, you get access to two bonus episodes surrounding an amazing, brilliant genius theme that Jamie and I cook up.

There's lots of polls. There's lots of fun stuff going on over there at patreon.com slash bectalcast. You also get access to the entire back. catalog of bonus episodes. There's almost 200 somewhere around there. And it's a beautiful little community. It really is. So join us over there. And thank you for joining us here today. We will be back next week with another new episode. Bye. Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of IHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtenen. And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me. And our logo and merch

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