The Bechdel Cast - The Notebook with Caitlin Gill

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

On this live episode of The Bechdel Cast, Old Caitlin reads to Old Jamie to help her remember The Notebook. Special guest Caitlin Gill is there to help restrain Old Jamie when she gets out of control. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @ROBOTCAITLIN on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, the President of the United States. One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus, and this is Basket Case.

What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts on the Bechdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them

are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the Bechdel cast welcome thank you for coming hi Jamie hi Caitlin hi so let's start by saying again thank you for coming to the live show we're talking about the notebook you have been given bechdel cast bingo cards no we gotta say boards bingo boards bingo boards i keep bechdel bingo board i had this whole plan where i was gonna keep saying bingo board moment oh just in the now but also in the future i was like i think we're gonna have all these bingo board moments when we're like together we for sure will right okay so you got bingo boards so we're gonna be talking for a while

and if we say anything uh you've got your boards you've got your writing utensils the first person to i guess the rules of bingo is a diagonal horizontal or vertical yeah five in a row yell out bechtel that was aristotle's idea yeah and now everyone shout out to aristotle find it on your board so yeah i mean get creative we between caitlin and i we have about 25 thoughts that go on a loop and they're all on that bingo board so right so the winner will get a prize yeah um shout out to our fan at danny cavalier who created this spectral bingo board so thank you it was we're utilizing it yeah and then he was like to prove the concept i've re-listened to 12 episodes and lost bingo at all of them. But you guys are going to win.

Someone's going to win. Anyway. By a round of applause, has everybody here seen, give it up if you've seen The Notebook. All right, we've got some horny people in the audience. I like it. Clap it up if you have not seen The Notebook. Don't be ashamed.

Ooh. Okay, so we've got a few people okay cool we've got a lot to talk about uh if you haven't seen the notebook we will i mean caitlin is extremely good at recapping things so we will we will guide you through it and uh we're gonna have we're gonna have a killer time i'm so excited for our guest too yes let's bring her out. She's a comedian. You know her from our Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid episode already. She wrote for the upcoming Misfits and Monsters. It's going to be coming out on TruTV. Give it up for Caitlin Gill!

Two Caitlins in one stage. I don't know how similar our voices are but i am caitlin gill yes and i am caitlin dorante i don't know we forgot to introduce ourselves oh i'm little jamie i just show up to have fun i'm caitlin gill the roller skating grandma you'd like to fuck right love it oh my gosh i okay first of all i'm looking over your shoulder caitlin uh dorante oh god okay i'm looking over your shoulder caitlin dorante as i always am and uh you've got how many pages of notes today seven seven page and i'm sorry i'd say that's a full notebook good night everybody thank you very much thank you and that was a full discussion

11 point font what's your spacing at 1.5 1 baby jeez margins are slim Caitlin's got a lot of thoughts on this I have exactly

I don't want to give you a bingo board moment whatever do it first of all a man just yelled do it to me and i'm gonna kill but no i'm kidding i did for all you bingo boarders out there i did watch this movie this morning so well done and i have exactly eight bullet points i brought out a bottle of water but i peeled the label off so i knew which one was mine that's how prepared I am. That's not true.

I also watched the movie. So varying degrees of preparedness. A vast spectrum of preparedness. I watched the movie three times. Jesus Christ. For the podcast. Let's clarify. You have seen it many times independently.

Only a couple before this. Okay. All right. Yeah. Don't. Don't. That's fair. We're feuding.'s fair feud feud alfred molina's in feud all right we're just giving them away now we're bagel borden hard alfred molina okay i will just get it out at the top alfred molina in this movie could

have played rachel mcadams twirly mustache dad. For sure. For sure. Because the mother is a big character, and we'll talk about her a lot. But twirly mustache dad is in it for like three seconds, and he's always just like doing a twirly. He's like, you know, talking to a poor boy, I see. That's like all he does. There's one scene where he talks to a poor man,

and another scene where he talks to a sandwich with like crayfish on it. He does talk to a sandwich. Does it pass the Bechdel test if a guy with a twirly mustache talks to a sandwich? I suggest we revise the rules. What does that mustache smell like? Hey, speaking of the Bechdel test,

I wonder, just out of curiosity, is there anyone who has never listened to an episode of the Bechdel cast and are therefore very confused by everything that's happened so far? Don't be afraid. They're nice. Oh, we've got a little hand.

Okay. What if he really had a little hand? Hello. He's got a regular size hand. Thank you. Did someone bring you? Hi. You have a good roommate.

Well, welcome. Welcome. So we will define the Bechdel cast for you and you alone uh well the Bechdel cast is indefinable fluid beautiful gorgeous the test does have several interpretations we use a very specific one yes the Bechdel test is applied to, for our sake, movies. It requires that there are two women who have names, their characters have names, they speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man. That is the test.

The Bechdel cast, that's our sort of jumping off point. We talk about the portrayal of women in movies, one movie at a time. I do think it's funny that sometimes people are like, oh yeah, that's just the podcast where you decide. I'm like, do you think we take an hour deciding

if one conversation takes place? Tonight, I feel like we could though. Yeah, because we started a pre-debate. We did. We warmed up.

Yeah, I asked whether or not you guys think The Notebook passes the test. And we, well, we'll, let's save it.

Save it. It's going to be a twist. I knew as soon as I started this segue, I was like, these two have a plan. And I am like trying to be the hotshot guest. I'm like, hey guys, how about I guide our conversation a little bit? You have seven pages of 11 font note with slim margins.

Caitlin has basically brought a manifesto. And I'm here like, why don't I throw out a pitch for a topic? You've got this covered. We'll get there. I think that, yeah, you're the Unabomber. I'm the Unabomber's friend. He didn't have any. Una.

I had you right. I know that doesn't mean one. I just wanted it to mean one. It means University Bomber because that's where he started. He was ruined in a university. Anyway, don't. Speaking of universities. Shout out to Kaczynski. I have a Kaczynski sweatsh started. He was ruined in a university. Anyway, don't. Speaking of universities. Shout out to Kaczynski. I have a Kaczynski sweatshirt. I was robbed of a Bechtel bingo board moment.

Oh, no. When I said speaking of universities. Take it home. Take it home, Dreamy. Go ahead. Go ahead. I do have a master's degree from Boston University. Oh, wait. A what?

In screenwriting. From where? From Boston University. God damn.. A what? In screenwriting. From where? From Boston University. God damn. That's Unabomber adjacent. A master's degree, indeed. Okay, let's talk about The Notebook, shall we? The Notebook, yes. Caitlin, you saw it recently. Yes, I had not seen The Notebook, and I

did for this podcast, so that tells you how deeply I'm willing to sacrifice for the two of you. Thank you so much. That's right. Jamie, when did you first see it? I saw this, I'm willing to sacrifice for the two of you. Thank you so much. That's right. Jamie, when did you first see it? I saw this. I watched this movie with my grandma on TNT. Let's say in 2007. I think we watched it with commercials in Massachusetts in 2007.

I remember at that time, I was like, this is dumb. I was like a big Hot Topic shopper and didn't really believe in love if it wasn't directly related to Jack and Sally. So I did see the notebook, didn't care for it and didn't see it again until this morning. And I watched it twice and I cried so much. Did you?

I loved it twice and I cried so much. Did you? I loved it. I was, I got very, I mean, and I've become a very emotional adult. No, but I did

and I saw it and I was, I was, this was one of those episodes where I was fully going in expecting to unequivocally hate, have a problem

with every element of this movie and there's mistakes were certainly made we will discuss them but it did far better than i expected because i forgot almost everything right yes so uh i think that takes us to the recap and then we'll get into the discussion so the notebook if you have not seen it um we open on two old people du Duke and unnamed old woman who lives in a nursing home. They call him Duke because they're just like, what if it's not Ryan Gosling, parentheses old?

Yeah, it's confusing. I guess that's his nickname, Duke. We could have used a nickname reveal toward the end of the movie. They didn't do that. It would have been handy. You'll get there in the recap. But there would have been a time to give him a nickname. And frankly, I want to know why they call him Duke.

There's a story. That doesn't come out of nowhere. You don't just read in the paper one day, you're Duke now. He's never referred to as duke in the earlier events of the movie so something happens between ages like 25 and 70 he becomes duke midlife crisis buys a boat call me duke yeah exactly so our friend duke visits this old, and he reads her a story from the notebook. A notebook.

Oh, I just, I, right. Did you just figure out why the movie is called The Notebook? I wouldn't say it was a notebook as much as it was a leather-bound journal, but that's not. The leather-bound journal in theaters Valentine's Day. I just figured that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great.

Notebook, 100%. 100%. Makes sense. That makes you deeply happy. So Duke reads this woman a story from the book. The leather-bound moleskin. Reads this woman a story from the book. The leather-bound moleskin. The story is about Noah and Allie. They are a couple of young people who meet for the first time in 1940. Noah is poor.

He's a poor boy, and he works at a lumberyard. When do we want to introduce the fact that this is, like, Titanic? Basically. As you go through the recap oh god these fucking bingo borders i don't know why we're not we gave it to you sorry we're like so gross of you to participate like we asked but do as you listen through the recap there's so many parallels that we will break down in detail we We sure will. So, Allie, in the meantime, is a rich girl and her family is in town

for the summer. Noah pursues Allie and she is resistant at first and we will 100% talk about it. He's got a little newsies hat.

He's wearing a hat. He sure does. I love how, I love like the interesting little choices that people will make to make an actor who's clearly like

in his late 20s seem like a teenager he's like i just put a little newsies hat on him yeah just like young make those pants bag year that'll cut off about five years have him slouch a little bit and go oh man so he's pursuing her she is not into it at first but eventually he wins her over and then they start dating but it's the summer before she's gonna leave for college so she's about to leave for college and they break up because he's like i don't see how we're gonna make it work i'm too poor and then a few years pass noah buys his like old plantation house and meanwhile he also goes to world war ii ever heard of it everyone's on their bingo boards like, is World War II on there?

World War II reference on the bingo board? He goes to war. His friend dies. He comes back. He comes back and he buys this old plantation home that he was like, Allie and I are going to live here because we're going gonna be together forever. It's like but that is what happens. Caitlin. Sorry I've spoiled everything. So he built he makes this house all nice and then someone takes a picture of it in the paper and then Allie sees it except that meanwhile

she's found another man. James Marsden. Yes. Okay. This people some people would disagree. I think Gosling to Marsden upgrade. That's what I think. Yes. Yeah, James Marsden is like cartoonishly handsome, which is why he plays a cartoon prince.

We can talk about what an upgrade not only that actor is, but that character. Yes. Oh, the character. Because God, do you. Majorly. James Marsden, God. It's like, what does he do to his eyebrows?

Or are they just like that? It's just crazy. It's amazing. One of the parallels to titanic is that he has great eyebrows cal hockley great eyelashes all right what if billy zane was in both of these movies what if he was the connecting thread so the notebook the notebook a movie about a notebook so like she used this picture in the paper she faints because women be fainting oh yeah and then in her wedding dress yeah and she decides to go and see him to pay him a visit because it's

been seven years and their relationship broke off kind of abruptly oh and there's a whole thing where he wrote her a letter every single day for a year and her mom intercepted all those letters so she never got them and she didn't know that he was writing to her which honestly you lazy check the mail once a year yeah one time get up earlier and you see you see the mom getting the mail and it's like oh it's about 2 p.m she's fully dressed this ain't early it's not like she has the mail guy delivering stuff on the low. He's delivering it regularly. Right. So she approaches him and she's like, hey, how are you? And he's like, I've been drunk for a long time.

To be fair, he's lost everyone in his life. His dad and Fabrizio. Basically. We'll get there. His name's finn but it's like his name's fabrizio and he died in 1912 why is he in this movie so ali and noah reconnect but she's like oh do i stay with my james marsden fiance like just just so you know caitlyn gill fully... I was making the finger inserted into the fist sex implication motion

because they do it. That's when they do it. That's the part of the movie where they do it. It's true. If you were looking to fast forward to a really boring milquetoast love scene, you got to go to about two thirds. Not even a nippy.

Not even a nippy. I feel like there was going to be a nippy. I'm frankly relieved. So yes, they have sex. And she's like, wait a minute. Do I stay with Lon, my James Marsden fiance? Oh yeah, Lon is James Marsden. For the purpose of this podcast, we'll be calling him James Marsden, obviously.

Or do I go back with Noah, Ryan Gosling? And honestly, because he makes her come and and james marsden doesn't that we know of well we don't see it well after they have sex she's like so that's what i've been missing are we because because we she like how she i interpreted that as like losing her purity i definitely thought she had a nipple between her knees until she went back to see Noah. But that's a very different interpretation that does have different sort of offspring.

I think that was her. I think she was having really boring sex. Okay, so in that, I would buy that, that she was basically telling James Marsden that she was a virgin and wanted to wait for a marriage. I don't even know if that was like a little fake news. He's proper shit. Like this is a dude who asked her parents first and all that.

Like, yeah. I can't say for sure. It's just, that was my interpretation because there was, there was nothing about that sex scene that implied in any way that she would come from what he was doing. I do not believe she was like that. He had the focus or dexterity to accomplish that. No, it sounded a little jokey when she was like,

so that's what I've been missing out on this whole time? And then he turns to her and is like, yeah. It's also the kind of love scene where someone strong is carrying someone tiny, which inevitably ends in the tiny person being pressed up against a wall and in this case it was like a cabinet there was nothing she's you cannot come with a handle sticking in your back and like yeah okay cool you dragged me like we're off the wall now and now we're just in your ghostly ass plantation trying to fuck in the same room we couldn't fuck in when we were 17 what do you remember how romantic it was to go back to where you first tried to fuck when you were 17 drive your car to your parents

driveway and just sit in it fumbling yeah hard pass hard pass yeah i guess we should all go back to that oh one ford focus that we were all in at one time okay so i might have misinterpreted what happened no i think that's open. Either way. Are we in the recap? We're still at the recap. So she is like, yeah, I'm going to pick Noah because he's my first love. She does confront her mom about the whole letter thing.

Her mom was like, shrug. And her mom reveals that not only did she hide the letters, but she did it in spite of the fact that she herself harbored a young summer love, that she still occasionally goes back to watch work in his rock quarry. From her fucking convertible Plymouth, with her Gucci's on or whatever,

if that was a thing in 47. Just watching this dude shovel rocks, I guess. And looks at her daughter like i love your father but i'd still fuck that gravel guy any day that was the question i had because at the end of that scene he looks over i'm like does he recognize her and he's like oh yeah we used to hook up and now 40 years later she still comes and stares at me shovel rocks sometime in case you're wondering if i've got that good dick or not 40 years later, she still comes and stares at me shovel rocks sometimes. In case you're wondering if I've got that good dick or not.

Women be staring at me shoveling rocks four decades on. Wax mustache guy outside shoveling the driveway like, I don't know why she asked me to do this she is so aroused when i come back in i feel like wax mustache guy comes like coins or like because he looks like an extra from The Greatest Showman. He fully looks like a magician who's gotten lost. But she loves him. Yeah. So the mom takes Allie to the quarry or whatever and is like, I too once loved a poor. And that's basically the end of their arc.

And then she's like, make the right choice. And then drops her daughter off at the fully restored plantation mansion the poor lives in. So I think hard air quotes around poor at home listeners. Right. And then at some point in the story, it's revealed. Remember, Duke and the old woman who is hearing the story. Turns out Duke is Noah and the old lady is ali no way wow what a total shocker i'm sorry the audience is not gasping but the reason that he is recounting this story to

her is that she has dementia and she's lost her memory so he reads this story to her to help her remember their love for each other. From the notebook, it turns out. From the notebook, the leather-bound journal. And then sometimes it works and she remembers and then they die together. I totally forgot that they both- There's this like rapid fire 15 minute ending where like she remembers, she sundowns.

He has a heart attack. He goes to see her in the ward that she's now trapped in because he's not there to read to her i guess he like shuffles out and a nurse is like sir you're not allowed to walk around but i'm definitely gonna leave to get coffee and let you wink winks he goes in to see his ailing wife who wakes up in full cognizance hi honey good to see you. Hey, do you think our love could kill us together? He crawls into bed, and that poor nurse comes back to work in the morning, like, I can't whistle into the microphone,

but she is a thousand percent whistling, carrying a cup of coffee like, I wonder where those old people who are in love are, pushes open the door, corpses. Blackout. Credits roll. Sorry, there are birds first and then credits roll a lot of swans yeah a lot of birds i uh for i thought they were geese and i

was like are we to believe that ryan gosling has been a goose apparently we are we missed it we didn't you can't recap the birds but the movie opens on this like i love to to notice in a movie when the editor's name pops up in the opening credits, what scene was there? Because that's obviously a choice. The editor chooses that, or director of photography. And all of them are just like, glorious birds. Everyone who edited or had a say in how the picture looks opens to swans soaring. The movie goes through, and they're at the beach,

and Allie's like, what if I was reincarnated as a bird? And I was like, that's weird, except fine, you're a bird, I'm a bird. And then when Allie

comes back to see Noah after he's rebuilt the house, he's like, come with me, I'm not gonna tell you where, but it's probably dangerous, I consistently endanger you. And then took her on a boat

to see ducks, they look at ducks, it rains, then at the end, it's like, let's die together, they die together, camera pulls out of the nursing home, fucking birds. Like, it rains. Then at the end, it's like, let's die together. They die together. Camera pulls out of the nursing home, fucking birds.

Like, did we need this bookend? I hope a camera, like a B unit camera guy got shat on so hard. I hope that there is someone in the theater in 2004 who just like wailed like, and there's birds! Like at the end. That really made, that tied the movie together for them i will say i decided to view that from like a bitter ornery lens there's no reason to it is beautifully shot it's some gorgeous

imagery way to go like yeah be a bird i guess that's a very free way to imagine your dead parents which is what that movie makes you do at the end so cool yeah great here's another question i had because there is a moment in the old people story where all of their kids and grandkids show up but ally doesn't realize that because she has dementia and so duke is just like duke i like to think he joined a middle-aged man's basketball league and he's like i'm duke he got duke's jersey from last year and he's duke now but but there's like a brief conversation after ally takes her nap or she like she leaves the scene and all the kids are talking to to noah and they're like oh mom doesn't remember us i'm like have you read this weird long handwritten story about your parents fucking like do they know

the notebook story i feel like they all do. I feel like they all know, like, hey, when we first tried to lose our virginity, it was confusing. But 10 years later, we raw-dogged hard. I hope there's some explanation for why those kids were so fucked up and cold. They're seriously only in the movie to be like, mm, mom doesn't recognize me.

And then immediately be like, mom doesn't recognize me. And then immediately be like, dad, leave mom. She's boring. We'll help. And they don't. And then they just take off, never to be seen again. That was the part in the movie where I genuinely, because it is for some reason intentionally ambiguous for a while, who the identity of the old man is. Once the kids were so like fuck her

leave her i was like maybe he's actually james marston and the kids know that their dad has no self-respect and that she's been in love with ryan gosling the whole time and they're like dad you've blown your life on this lady like james marston has to go read the book about how she fell in love with Ryan Gosling to get her to remember him every single day he has to be like so you want to hear the story about how you don't love me again although you know I wouldn't put it past Marsden he He's a class act. Yeah. All right. So on to, so in this page of Caitlin's notes, there's some highlighting and there's different shades.

There's a, what would you call this? A table? Do you have a chart? It's a bit of a lavender shaded box. So what I've done here, so the first thing I wanted to talk about is the first 15 minutes of the movie and how problematic they are I will quote my girlfriend here who watched this with me uh I love her so much thank

you that was very kind of you uh give it up for love yeah Kelly let's die in the same senior home gurney someday yeah I just got my hands to hold whilst i die i can't write in that notebook girl uh but she looked over and she was like so get ready because i'm pretty sure this movie is responsible for all the problems that women have had with men for the past 14 years like this problematic setup this 15 minutes is why men are so confused about what we actually want and why women are letting dudes crawl onto their carnival rides, I guess. Right. Yeah, walk us through it, Kayla,

because the first 15 minutes is like, whew. So we open in 1940. They're at a carnival. Noah sees Allie from a distance. She's riding bumper cars. He's leering. A precursor to her dementia.

I'm pretty sure we witnessed her getting the CTE that caused her later brain trauma. I think that's foreshadowing as hard as those birds amazing you can map this scene directly on titanic as well for when jack sees rose for the first time on the titanic deck at a distance and is like who is rich girl and then and then his friend is like that is rich girl she is rich and then he says me must have her that basically happens in this scene as well yes indeed so he's leering at her she gets out of her bumper car he like runs up to her and says do you want to. And then they go off and do a Ferris wheel. Why aren't women clear? Jeez.

So fucking ambiguous. I don't want to. What could that possibly mean? So then they get on a Ferris wheel, Allie and this other guy, and Noah jumps onto the seat that they are in, and she screams, Ah, get off me.

Don't touch me. And then he introduces himself. They're like, go away. And the Ferris wheel operator is like, you can't sit there. And he stops the Ferris wheel. So in order to resolve that situation, he instead, he climbs out of the seat and hangs from a bar. Noah hangs from probably 30 to 40 feet in the air. His Newsies cap totally intact.

The Ferris wheel operator is just like, yes, fine. This is not a liability. I will let this happen. I definitely shouldn't have just waited for their car to come to the ground before I stopped the ride. I made a good eye plan by stopping it while he was suspended in midair. Right. Also, there's this other guy in the scene with Allie the whole time who we understand to be like her friend. Right. Who is demonized by the movie hard as like when Noah first is like, dance with me.

And she's like, no. And then the guy's like, hey, leave her alone. Like the movie would have you believe. What an asshole. Right. I'm like, no, that's her. That's someone she knows. Right. I'm like, no, that's her. That's someone she knows. Yeah.

So he's now hanging from a Ferris wheel 40 feet in the air. Romantic. He says, now will you go out with me? She says, what? No. No? No. No.

And then his friend's like, we're just going to let you play all parts. Yes. No. And then his friend's like, hey, pal. We're just going to let you play all parts. Yes, please. The friend who the movie thinks is an asshole is like, hey, pal, she just told you. Boo. Noah says, why not? Allie says, I don't know, because I don't want to. And then he lets go of one hand, and now he's dangling. He's like, well, I guess I'll to. And then he lets go of one hand and now he's dangling. He's like, well, I guess I'll fucking kill myself then.

Super stable. No red flags here. And then E from Entourage is like, just go out with him. That's Fabrizio. Right. Finn. Finn. This is so confusing.

She, because he's threatening to kill himself placates him by being like okay fine i'll go out with you although we could end the movie right here so weird this poor guy approached me and like and then just like killed himself just fell from a Ferris wheel to his death. Anyways, I'm going to Sarah Lawrence next year. And then he's all smug about it. And he's just like, oh, don't do me any favors. Like, fine, I'll go out with you. And then she takes his pants off, which I don't know what to make of that. We can get into it later.

She's trying to get some sort. I mean, I was like, at least she did something to give herself the upper hand. I don't know what to make of that we can get into it later he's trying to get some sort I mean that I was like at least she did something to give herself the upper hand I don't understand I was like did she take his dick out in like 1940 she did it she did it yeah that whole scene is is a nightmare and is like totally textbook giving young men the wrong idea and giving young women the wrong idea of like here's the beginning to a beautiful love story. This is going to be the rest of your life.

You're going to become a swan with this man. For sure. Right. Like if a guy harasses you having never met you and he's wearing a horrendous hat

this is the man who will hold your hand as you die. Like it's not good. Right. Because in the next scene he hold your hand as you die. Like, it's not good. Right, because in the next scene, he sees her walking down the street. He sprints up to her and is like, oh, I'm really sorry.

That was stupid for me to crawl on a Ferris wheel, but I had to do it. I was drawn to you. I thought he was about to say, like, I was very drunk or high. Well, that's a better answer. But he was like, I was drawn to you. I was like,

so that's not an excuse at all. Yeah, I was drunk. Perfectly reasonable. I was drawn to you. Running. Running in the other direction. Fleaving. Fleeing.

And then he goes, hey, how about that date? And she's like, what date? And he's like, the date you agreed to. And she says, no.

And he's like, you did. You promised. You swore it. And then he's like the date you agreed to and she says no and he's like you did you promised you swore it and then she's like i changed my mind but she's like flirting with him now and they're always flirting well that's the thing it's like even in the middle of these super weird stalky scenes she start like her character starts to engage it just a little bit and just a little bit until you, as a, like, 13-year-old watching this with your grandma, let's just say, are fully gaslighted and being like, oh, yeah, if someone's horrible to you, that's a freaking yes.

Right. That's just, yeah. Because then the scene ends with, he's like, what's it going to take to change your mind? And she's like, you'll figure something out, I guess. He slipped. I actually thought they might have written these lines for her and they switched sides that day. Because he winds up saying, I'll be anything you want me to be.

You want me to be smart? You want me to be strong? You want me to be what you want? You want me to be a big guy? I'll be a big guy. And then she's like, you're dumb. I can be that. Instantly just like, I will make myself literally anything you tell me to be.

I am a slate for you to draw upon. I am but a canvas. You are the brush. You like painting, right? Wait, I don't find that out until I take you into the middle of the street and make you lay down. Which he does right after. Can I break down this date? Yes. Because they go on a date.

They go to a movie with friends. They sit apart from each other. He leaps across seats to be next to her. Apparently she's fine with that. He stares at her, not the movie, and just watches her eat popcorn. Again, totally fine. Who isn't comfortable with a man lustily staring at you as you move buttered, greasy fingers to your mouth they leave the movie they decide to walk together finn is like you in love now and they're like maybe and they walk into the street he uh tells her you don't know what you

like you don't know what you're doing i'm condensing this conversation but that is the thesis like what do you like to do for fun oh what your parents tell you that's stupid you're stupid and then it's like you don't take any risks come here and take the risk i tell you to take stupid, you're stupid. And then it's like, you don't take any risks. Come here and take the risk I tell you to take, whether it's what you want to do or not. I'm going to show you how to be free, and it's by stepping into this cage that I'm building for you. This is one of the most romantic scenes in the movie. Oh, yeah, precious.

He lays down in the middle of the street to watch the lights change like he used to do with his dad. I don't know, get a nickel, go to the goddamn movies. He gets her to lay down, and she loses herself in the moment. You know what I do for fun? You know what I love? I love painting. Honk, honk, beep, car coming. Doesn't slow down even a little bit as they leap out of the road. Oh, so what it takes for you to realize that you like painting is to be seconds from death? Honey, loosen up. You're not doing good. But that whole first date is like, your ambitions are wrong.

Do what I tell you to do. You don't know how to think for yourself, but I'll tell you some options. Choose between the one I tell you is right. Also, lay down in traffic. That's the case.

Well... And the movie, in the notebook, the next page, it cuts back to the old people and it's like, and they were inseparable after that.

Like, that's what it took? Jesus Christ. Well, let's backtrack a minute because while this movie does not have a surprise kiss, I don't know if that's one of the bingo things. It does not have

a surprise kiss. This movie, I would argue, has a surprise date because Noah's like, hey, Finn, arrange this thing so that I can hang out with Allie. And then they all

go to the movies. It's like Finn and her friend Sarah and then Noah and Allie. And then they all go to the movies. It's like Finn and her friend Sarah and then Noah and Allie. And he shows up and she's visibly uncomfortable. She's like, what's he doing here? She's not happy that he's there. But some point in the movie,

something switches. We do not understand why this happens, but suddenly she's okay with him. And then there... It's the traffic scene though. I think that that's where we're supposed to believe that they like bond is like when they when this horrible thing happened yeah but the fact that she agrees to go to that point with him because he's like do you want to go for a walk and she's like okay sure and this is like how like what

what shift happened unclear like they're nicholas sparks uh is clearly a very stable man who has definitely kissed a girl before and has so every oh wait story he tells has an uncanny valley quality of like and the girl just comes around he's he's wearing a hat wait i know what it is i know what it is so she enters the movie being like oh i don't want to hang out with this guy i'm sitting several people away from him she watches that movie the movie tricks her and is like oh this is how romance is supposed to be it's supposed to be a man preying on you and i have not. I have not seen Little Abner, but I'm tempted now, because that's what they were watching. I don't know. Right.

Which, I mean, it's safe to say any movie that came out ever is pro-predatory stalking romance. If it was in theaters in 1940, I'm not sure it had a progressive discourse on intersectional feminism. And then I just laid out in traffic and waited for my prince to come yeah so that's what i think happened she saw the movie and then she got because movies are very influential she was like oh i guess this is how romance is supposed to be so it is i mean it's a very like predatory stalking start to this relationship in this movie

and that is so common in all romance movies and all rom-coms specifically. And I like want to make a point to not like, I think that people are so often shamed for enjoying rom-coms and romantic movies in a way that like dudes are not shamed for enjoying like Transformers style movies. And so it's like, if you love romantic movies, awesome.

There's a lot of parts of these movies that i like choked up at and that was like extremely beautiful but i didn't because i have no emotions you're welcome okay she's pandering to the bingo boards but but but like the the predatory stalking narrative is so prevalent in both of these genres to the point where it's like, I mean, I can draw on an example in my own life of a dude pursuing me pretty reluctantly. When it's clear, it's like, oh, you've just seen this movie. It's weird when you spot quotes in somebody's terrifying pursuit of you where you recognize, like, are you getting a boombox right now

and coming to my house? Right, right. That's where you got got it and the thing that bums me out about it is that i do love romance i love infatuation and i totally buy seeing someone being so taken that you just have to talk to them and like finding a love that you're so passionate about even though circumstances in your life are unsure like that's such a real and beautiful situation like falling in love young and figuring out a way to see it through your adulthood and your seniorhood that's such a beautiful story and it is terrible that these are the dominant narratives in them like

there are absolutely ways to meet the love of your life at a carnival that aren't endangering a woman and then manipulating her right in dating you. It could start with a candy apple. Let's just resource. You've got a lot of excellent things available to you. No shortage of setups, no shortage of props. We've got a lot of stuff going. The first thing you see him do at the carnival, his friend Finn

wins a tiny toy, one of those hammer hit a thing real hard thing. We know that Noah goes on to build a fight a war and build a house with his fucking hands like you had so many choices that weren't that right it's a bummer that more of these movies that do because i love that heart i do like this movie it's a good movie with great performances i wish that's what they weren't performing like i wish there was something better that they could have been doing right a few chunks of this movie

that play into those tropes in such a direct way and then other chunks of this movie that are so beautiful that it's just like i i wish that yeah if this movie had started and been framed in a different way that would have been like more realistic than what we see it would have been like way easier to digest the rest of the movie. Totally. But instead, yeah, the movie like frames this like very stalking predatory behavior as romantic. I did want to say we were talking about this in the car over not to justify this setup at all because it is bad. And this movie came out in 2004. It's not 1992 like it feels.

Right. Right. But I have been thinking about this a lot every time i see like a period set movie of like how so many couples in this period of time their beginning of their love story is very predatory and creepy uh i think that if a lot of like if anyone knows of like how their grandparents met guaranteed terrifying my my grandparent, my paternal grandparents, and my dad told me this after both of them had died, and in the middle of telling me the

story was like, uh, uh. This is how my grandparents met. My grandmother, 15 years old, walking her infant sister around in a carriage outside, Brockton, Massachusetts, 1950s. Beautiful. A man, 8 to 10 years her senior, my future grandfather, 1950s, beautiful. A man, eight to 10 years her senior,

my future grandfather, spots her from behind, cat calls her, says, hey, that your baby? She turns to him, says, no. He says, cool, want to go on a date this weekend? They're married for five million years. And it's just like,

imagine marrying the first man who cat called you like i just i expected better of her well in the notebook we see like all the times that she either says a flat out no or i don't want to or don't touch me she says it like eight times and why this movie basically like teaches men like oh just push past the no like wear her down emotional yeah like ignore the no because eventually she'll give in just wear her down and it's gonna be romantic like that's a horrible irresponsible message that so many fucking movies send i never find out movie two brownie points that i didn't expect one the scene

where they try to do it and can't i think they did that pretty well with them stripping in front of each other but i am old and apparently very frigid uh but they so they try to get it down like in their summer of love when they're young they try to bone and she gets nervous and very chatty in the middle and he i think there's like a physical expression of frustration of like oh like which is understandable uh but he like rolls over and they just talk for a minute he's not mad he's not pouty he doesn't ask her a bunch of shitty questions he says we don't have to do this if you don't want to yep i think that's bonus points there are also teenagers who've been rubbing on each other all summer like this is a tough moment hard conversation i thought that that was well handled uh also later in the movie lawn what a gentleman

oh my god lawn lawn i kept like so lawn is the later fiance that uh she winds up ditching and in the scene in which she ditches him she is expressing her emotions perhaps clearly for almost the first time in the film. Except for when she was saying no to Ryan Cosgrove. Right, right, right, right. Except for all those no's and don't touch me. But she's honest. She tells him that she's leaving. Like, hey, Lon, I'm going to go on a trip.

I have to figure some shit out before we get married. That's pretty honest. Right. Don't have to be specific yet. You don't know what you're doing yet. Once Lon is figuring shit out, she comes to him and talks to him. Is honest. Bonus point. And his reaction is figuring shit out, she comes to him and talks to him, is honest, bonus point, and his reaction is pretty tempered.

I could kill him, I could punch him in the nose, or I could leave you, but none of those are any good because they don't give me you. Like, aw, you're a dark, like, good job. Even before that, whenever she's saying, hey, I have to go take care of some things, I'm going to go to Seawood

or whatever the fuck it's called. SeaWorld. SeaWorld. Rest against the tank. In this world, Rachel McAdams is in love with a whale. It becomes Shape of Water so fast. Oh my god!

Don't get Jamie started on Shape of Water. I know what I was doing. I knew what box I was opening. I'm fully activated. My legs are double crossed. Wrapped around each other, trying not to have to change my clothes.

Right. The fish is so hot. It's insane. I was just pleased that in a movie with a lot of negative narratives, that there were at least a couple points where dudes and ladies can learn some good shit. Well, yeah, like the scene whenever she's just like,

I have to go take care of some things. he's like oh are you getting cold feet and she's like no he's like but that's totally normal like take as much time as you need do whatever you have to do like he's very supportive i feel like it would have been very easy for this movie to paint that character is like or just lazy easy whatever like he's abusive or he's mean or he's distant or any number of things and i think this this is one of the, because by and large, the Titanic parallels, which we should break down by and large, the ways that it's the same are like in a way that is Titanic gets the edge. But in this way, I think it's really interesting to present the guy she's going to marry as

a good guy because it makes her choice harder. Definitely. And it makes it more interesting to watch where like Cal, Billy Zane, no one's going to fall in love with this guy. He's a mess. And so it makes it so clear, you know, it's like, oh,

well then these two characters should be together. No question. But it is kind of like hard as an audience member to be like, oh, she's, she's caught between a great guy and ryan gosling alone in a big house right right and and so it is like kind of more interesting to watch i did want to get back to that virginity scene because i thought it was so i was so pleasantly surprised at how well done it was where yeah i

mean you just see like positive communication between teenagers in a sexual situation which is like um what they're but it's good and then also another he didn't like climb on top of her and then hang off of her and then let go of one hand like just do it come on yeah call back to their meeting but it was it was good i mean the fact that they're basically like they're like let's lose our virginity in this Yeah, a call back to their meeting. But it was good. I mean, the fact that they're basically like, they're like, let's lose our virginity in this haunted house. That I'm going to buy and make pretty for you.

Right, so we can fuck in this less haunted house later. Hot. Lots of foreplay. Ten years of foreplay. Matt, the boy I made out with in an abandoned farmhouse, never promised me he'd paint it white and put shutters on it. I should have held out for something better in middle school. Props to making out in a farmhouse, though.

It was crazy. Drank a lot of peach schnapps in that weird building. Nice. Should we take this time to discuss the parallels between the notebook and the dynamic? I think this would be a good time to point the fact that you have a dark gray box with a white font, all bold, some underlined. I don't know why you're shaming me for my amazing organizational skills. There's this, okay, so fan theory,

and then we fact-checked it right before we came on stage. My original theory was that Nicholas Sparks wrote the book, The Notebook, right after seeing Titanic. Because so much of it is like scene by scene, kind of the same thing in a lot of places. But then we found out, because as we all know, Titanic came out in December 1997. The Notebook, the book, came out in 1996. So new fan theory by Caitlin Gill is that James Cameron stole the notebook because he had to shoehorn a love story into his weird boat movie. And I like that. I think that could be

very, I know that that's true, that he shoehorned a love story. I mean, I think that's kind of common knowledge about Titanic is that he wanted a movie with fancy boats and things that went underwater, but they were like, no, that's not a movie. And he was like, love story. And they were like, $40 million. Bring in Zane. That famous Hollywood line. Push a button, a carbonite block just comes out of the way.

So there is so, there is so much. All right, starting with the framing device of an old person telling a story that takes place many decades earlier. Check. Poor boy sees rich girl with reddish hair. I must have her. Instantly enamored with her.

They meet and fall in love very quickly. In Titanic, it's a matter of a day. Poor boy teaches rich girl how to not be such a stuffy rich girl. Right. Poor boy like re-educates rich girl because in both of these movies poor people are cute. They play the spoons on their porch or under the deck of

a boat. The difficulties of the poor. I just want to give you a soundtrack for the poor. Well that exact dance scene is in both movies. Exactly. The Newsies hat dance scene. It's like, oh, yeah, poor people be dancing in Newsies hats all the time.

Never mind the fact that they're fucking dying. Like, they're whatever. Then we've got rich girl has fiance who is a rich boy. Rich girl's family disapproves of poor boy in that exact same scene where they have a meal with the poor boy and they're like for being poor yeah they're like so you're poor and he's like yeah being poor is cute and they're like well we don't think it's cute and then the rich girl's like oh my god i'm so sorry let's go dance in a newsies hat and that is how both movies go the dinner scene in the notebook

starts with waxy mustache dad as a brunch telling like a joke is being like oh we're all a bunch of millionaires and yet we live with of several whores he's a feminist icon we can all agree 100 percent james marston in this movie is a feminist icon but yeah i would yes i think um he's a little creepy when he's all in the cement plaster and it's like what do you want to do with me like he meets uh ally because she's a nurse in new york and then he comes back from the war all busted up he's got a bruised face so you don't know he's cute yet and he's in a big plaster thing so you don't know he's fit yet.

She like half lifts him up and he's like getting into his bedpan, presumably. He's cut down below his waist like, and she's like, you're a zombie. Fuck no. He's like, someday I won't be. And the next scene is like, honk honk, fancy car. I'm better. Come here. And the twist is i'm james

and she's like oh okay sounds good he's like i'm james marston okay james marston is we have to say the owner of a cotton plantation in 1940 so like there's other stuff going on with his view we haven't even talked about the bechdel test part, which also is problematic with the time period in the South. But we'll get there. I'm determined to get there because I want to hear. I want to know what you think. Just a couple more Titanic parallels

that I want to get through. Rich girl and poor boy drink beer together. Poor boy's friend, whose name begins with F, dies tragically. Damn. This is my favorite one. Damn. Finn dies in World War II.

Fabrizio dies via Titanic smokestack. It's basically the same thing. But there's one key difference between the two movies. In the notebook, the old people die at the end. And in Titanic Rose simply

falls asleep and has a dream absolutely not she dies can we just round of applause who thinks that she dies at the end of Titanic

well who agrees that she falls asleep and has a dream I'm actually I thought I was with you there and one person clapping in the back

dream yeah thank you everyone vast minority if you stay until after the credits of Titanic you just see Bill Paxton one person clapping in the back. Dream? Yeah. Thank you. Everyone, the vast minority, if you stay until after the credits of Titanic, you just see Bill Paxton

like hauling out an old lady rolled in a blanket just off the top of the boat. Stinks down with the jewel. Yikes. Oh, Paxton. Rest in paradise. One of the things

that I wanted to bring up, and this isn't specifically about any female characters but it is about the portrayal of men and masculinity because the relationship between Noah and his dad is actually like very

positive and healthy and like a very nice portrayal of that father son relationship dynamic that we almost never see in movies. Especially of a movie of this kind it's a period piece it takes place in the south they're poor a lot of movies i think would be like have an emotionally abusive or physically abusive father uh or he and that's also just like lazy writing that we see a lot is like the daddy is bad mustache dad is, he's got that kind of like

charming evil of the South where like you're positive he's racist and he's definitely misogynist, but he's also overtly sweet to everyone. And he's never like, even unkind to his daughter.

And you don't see a lot of him, but what that actor manages to portray is kind of that dad's thing of like, I know what you're doing and I know you might get hurt, but like, I love you. I know it's very small, but I kind of got like, I know what you're doing and I know you might get hurt, but like, I love you.

There's, I know it's very small, but I kind of got like the little, there's a little scene where he's just on the porch where she gets home. My favorite take in the movie is Rachel McAdams being scared of her father. Like she jumps. She doesn't realize he's there as she walks onto the porch and gives a great jump take that I want to loop in a gift that I would never stop watching. But he's just sort of, he's paternal in a way that isn't negative. In a movie where it would have been really easy,

Joan Allen is the more complex parental figure for Ellie. Her mom is definitely the one who is more protective for complex reasons. She too am fucked a poor one. By the way, I'm not the first to express this sentiment, but I will give myself credit for novel phrasing. I'm convinced that there's a phone in Joan Allen's house that just rings every time Hollywood needs a distressed

mother. It's just like a hotline directly to only her. And if she's not already on a set being a mom who's sad, she has to go to another set immediately to be a mom who's sad. They're like, Allison Janney's busy! Exactly. But that dad isn't so bad either. And there's good male friendships, except for like trying to

set your dude up with a date with a girl who doesn't want to go on that date. Aside that problematic like yeah you know it's not the worst toxic masculinity it's like romance toxicity it's somehow different right for both men and women yeah i mean aside from the toxic for her because it's like a guy with a great dad a girl with parents who don't and care about her who seems to have a level head right like they're on to something here their kids with like there's no trauma in their background that makes them irresponsible with romance there's something like whatever i don't know if it's cultural there's just something about the circumstance of romance that makes them be totally evil turds like right you know what i mean like

why does a guy with a great dad who like reads him poetry hanging from one arm on a ferris wheel like there's a disconnect like you've read poems you've read sonnets you should have some idea of how to treat a lady where's your bouquet of posies dude like how many of those of you take a hike famous walt whitman poem about hanging off of carnival equipment and then she was mine I just think romance is broken, maybe. Not families, I guess. I don't know. I did really like the father character.

And actually, it was like the father. Yeah, because I forgot that he died. And I was like, oh. It's so quick. That scene of the funeral, because Noah's father passes after they restore the house together. And they express that by saying it out loud and then there's like a two second flash, almost like a Coke appearing in a movie theater trailer

to like get you thirsty. They just throw up a flash card of a funeral. It's like 10 people in black suits facing a hole in the ground and then it's gone. I just picture like the director being like, fuck, we need a scene in the funeral. Everybody get your suits and go outside. It's just gaffers in suits. There is like, and the only scene you see of the funeral. Everybody get your suits and go outside. It's just gaffers in suits.

There is, and the only scene you see of the funeral, it's like people leaving the funeral. It's not even them at, it's like they're like, well, that was sad.

I love the way this movie yada, yada, yada is everything that isn't their relationship. It is totally focused on the two of them and whether or not they're going to stay together.

Other than World War II is just like, I don't know, it's like, we're going to war. We're back. That's the whole thing. They're like, Fabrizio died. That's too bad.

There was, they do fast forward a lot of stuff. But I feel like they still care. The characters still develop as if all of those things are happening. But because we're only talking about the relationship beats, sometimes when we cut forward, we're like, why is ryan gosling an alcoholic and then you're like wait he lost everyone he loved died that's why and now all he has is this haunted plantation and a war widow to bang oh the what we got to talk about the war widow she was disserviced whoa yeah there's a pun there where are we at how's everyone doing on their bingo boards

we've got okay okay i feel like um there are no cats in this movie cats have eight nipples this has been cat facts with caitlin are there no cats does that i don't think there are any cats are there any dogs there's a noticeable lack of cats there's just ducks they're saying birds i like the scene where um martha shaw who is noah's i guess like fuck buddy like he's clearly does not take her very seriously and is not serious about her this is this is like in the future well not like well like you know it's after he's restored the house he's in a big old plantation mansion all alone dead dad like in the future. Well, not like, well, like, you know. It's after he's restored the house. He's in a big old plantation mansion all alone. Dead dad's in the backyard, I guess, wherever you put your old people

when you're poor but have a mansion. All of Noah's hamsters and also his father in the backyard of the plantation. But yeah, there's a lady a couple towns over who swings by for a little sad time booty call. It's just sad people boning. Who hasn't been that person? Yeah, we've all been there.

But in the scene in which she and Allie meet, there's just an understanding of like, oh, you're the person that he used to love. Oh, you're the person that he currently fucks. Nice to meet you. Come on in. I feel like, I mean, They're both very immature about it.

Yeah. Another brownie point I forgot for this movie where two women don't claw each other's eye out like an episode of Cheaters. Right. She just comes by like, oh, I've heard a lot about you. I've heard a lot about you too.

Let's go in while it's daylight and you're going to leave when it's nighttime. Yada, yada, yada conversations that happened inside, I guess. But I just think, like, I think, again, like, lazy writing would have had them just, like, be very petty and jealous toward each other.

But realistically, I don't want to meet my fuck buddy's love of their life, I will say. If I'm fucking him because my husband died in the same war this dude came back from, that's a whole other movie. It's like the war vet fucking the war widow is a whole other kind of romance. Like she's not there to stay. What are you going to do?

Live in the eyes of the memory of the war that your husband didn't come back? Yeah. Tell me again what the war was like. I don't think. That's good. The notebook does not care about the war. Fall to winter. Whatever the opposite of a spring to summer romance is.

This is the dark cold seasons romance. The notebook does not care about World War II to the point where why did it even take place as World War II was happening? Because it comes in at almost no point. It's like glazed over as like, oh, I guess we better address the fact that World War II happens.

Also, we got to figure out how to kill Fabrizio. Yeah, it really was just to kill Finn because she's gone by then. He just makes that choice like after Ali's, this is part of his mourning,

the loss of his love after that year of letter writing. I don't know, war broke out. I guess I'll join the army. Right, yeah, him and Fabrizio

are like working at some rock yard for pores and they're like, everyone better join up, and they're like, oh, that sounds good. How do we feel about Allie as a character herself? I generally, I like how her character's developed over time, because she starts out on top because she's repeatedly saying no,

which is great. But then once she is involved in this relationship, when she's younger especially, she's very combative. But you see her kind of mellow out as she gets older. To the point where she like

hits him several times. Yeah, she hits him a bunch. She's physically abusive to Ryan Gosling to the point where there's one scene where they're breaking up when they're teenagers where she's hitting him

over and over. And then there was this, I had to rewind it because i was like did he hit her back but no he also starts hitting himself and i'm like why are we all hitting ryan goss this is very stressful but she hits him a bunch of time and i was like oh this is this is please stop hitting ryan goss like he's a national treasure. He's Canadian, so he's a Canadian. They're both from the same town. And Rachel McAdams is two years older than Ryan Gosling. I'd like to point that out because usually the Hollywood age gap has a male man being many years older.

A man. Hollywood full of male men. A man being years and years sometimes decades older than his love interest especially a 1940s romance with a 17 year old girl oh yeah

that guy could have been 50 and it would have been like yep mmhmm Rachel Mc I mean strictly speaking from a Rachel McAdams perspective the Rachel McAdams perspective

she is I think awesome in this movie this is also the same year that Mean Girls comes out like her two biggest most different roles came out the same year she's awesome I love her okay sorry that's it uh we can go home no ali is a character i don't know i mean there's a part of her that is a little bit like rich girl underwritten

for me of just like she's never really struggled and then just sort of like why does everyone like her so much why are we all like dying to i don't know she paints that's another thing it's like oh god what a what a lazy like trope of just like but she wants to be an artist no i mean let's be she doesn't say i want to be an artist she says i paint for fun right there's no ambition beyond just, like, hanging out with a canvas, I guess. Like, it's not like, and someday I'd like to be in a gallery. No thought. I think she's like, I don't know, I give them out for Christmas. Like, it just seems like.

And that's used as sort of this weird leveraging point of why we should favor Ryan Gosling over James Marsden. Because Ryan Gosling leaves this series of literal arrows leading to a canvas and then she paints in the nude. Because he tells her how to have fun. Right. He instructs her with physical arrows where to go to have a good time. This is your recreation.

But, and also it's like at that point, it's like imagine if someone was telling you, hey, you liked doing this 10 years ago. You'd probably still love it. Somebody sets up a Dance Dance Revolution pad and a PlayStation 2 for me. I know you. But then we're supposed to think, oh, James Marsden doesn't get it because one day she shows up at his office in the middle of the day

and she's just like, I used to like painting. And he does not tell her to get the fuck out which is what he should oh man he's james mars is a fucking champ because she's so like and both of them to their other romantic partners but especially ally are very like emotionally careless towards them james marston has done nothing to deserve deserve her going off for a week and cheating on him for a week and then coming back and being like, I don't know. I just feel like someone different

when I'm with him. Right, and I'm just like, oh, that's something that people who cheat on you who can't be trusted would say. It is a lifelong romance founded by teenagers on a summer fling and then infidelity like those

are the two breadrock moments of their then lifelong relationship so that fight where he like noah's like there's gonna be a lot of work we're gonna have to work at it every day like yeah dude you started this on some rocky ground not at your job you got a lot of trust to build buddy they have they have this exchange a couple different times where they're like we fight all the time that's okay like when they're teenagers they're like all like there was like a voiceover like all they do is fight cut to rachel mcadams hitting ryan gosling incessantly but boy did they kiss nice no that's not what a good relationship is. And then they say it again ten years later. All we do is fight.

That's fine. I would have loved to see her pop out of dementia at the end and spend the three minutes she had cognizant just like, is this the candles that you're putting out? These are our nice candlesticks, you idiot! Just parading him. I wanted to mention that as with most mainstream Hollywood movies,

this is a very hetero movie. This is a very white movie. All the main characters. Oh, that dad was gay as fuck. What are you talking about? Ellie's dad is totally gay. Hello. Queer icon.

Southern dandies married to pretty ladies. Head to the south, y'all. It's happening all the time. That mustache daddy. He gay. Queer icon mustache daddy. For all you bingo boarders out there. I feel like that's the subtext of Joan Allen in the car.

Like, I could have married this poor, virile, like, beautiful boy. Fuck man. But because I was in love with him, I married your gay father. We both needed a beard. I love him! But honey, you get it, right?

Like, you saw the mustache. That's very implicit and not especially explicit. It is not explicit. I'm definitely deciding that that's the case. And for a movie that takes place in the South in 1940, race is not touched at all. Oh yeah, it is. Oh, a lot of actors of color got an extra day rate.

That's super nice. Yeah. There's a whole lot of background characters. And there are the only people of color who have lines are the help. One of the lines is, I would be happy to pack your bags. Yeah. And that is the only person of color that I noticed who actually had a name. Oh, yeah.

Was the servant in the house in the 40s. So that's the only person of color with a name because there are two nurses that we see in the forward scenes with the old people over and over. There are two women of color who work at the nursing home. Horm. That sounds like even worse than a nursing home. Oh, boy. It's infectious.

The whole table has it. The whole table can't be yanked. But we see and we see these two characters for a lot of the movie. We see them in almost every scene that the old people are in. Never find out their names. Nothing. And it's just, that's just like

careless, stupid writing. Can we get there now? That's why it doesn't pass the Bechdel test. Let's get to that. Do you want to wait? One last thing I wanted to say is that we've got some other tests to address. I wanted to just say that as it relates to the character, the people of color. Bechdel.

Oh! Hand it over, baby. Someone's got a Bechdel. Someone's got a... Give it up for our first bingo winner. Congratulations. Bechdel bingo anyways what else do we have to talk about so i wanted to finish my point about so the people of color in the movie we were talking about the bechdel test there's also the duvernay test yes

which requires that people of color in the movie can't just be supporting the white characters in the movie they have to have their own realized lives and stories and backstories and everything like that so this movie does not fail every person of color is literally seen serving a white person there is not there's although we do see apparently i uh noah and his father have several black friends because there's that scene where they're all dancing together i don't that's like i mean we don't yeah we don't know anything about them and they're they don't have any lines that's also just used we don't yeah we don't know anything about them and they're they don't have any lines that's also just used

to imply like those rich snobs they pay they buy the black people we play spoons with them there's like a we would be remiss to not say

that several times in the movie James Marsden owns a cotton plantation yeah and let's just

and everyone's like oh cool he's successful and it's like, oh, cool, he's successful. And it's like, he's 100% racist. There's no way around it. Okay, so the Bechdel test, by the Bechdel-Cast version, it technically does. But you had a compelling argument.

So I think that it, because we were talking about this beforehand, I think you had a really good point that it does come to a matter of subtext where our version of the Bechdel test requires two female identifying characters with names talking about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue.

But that gets tricky. Very low bar. And so basically it's safe to say that... It shouldn't get tricky. If you're at the point where that bar, if you're squeezing something under it, it doesn't fucking fit. Okay, because the scene we were talking about,

the subtext is... The one scene that you could even use to suggest. It's between Allie and her mom, right after Allie and Noah are out late trying to fuck doesn't work out. So then her parents freak out because she's out late and then they say we're leaving tomorrow and you're going to college great normal reaction we're vacating the mansion because you got fingered one time

very chill so we see the scene with her and her mom the next day and they do have several lines do you have the actual lines yes it's in your novella it's basically something to the effect of she's seen like cars getting packed up and she's like what's going on and her mom's like we're leaving and she's like we're leaving now she's like yes sit down and have some breakfast then willow i think it is we'll pack up your things. So that's where the argument comes in, is they are not explicitly saying, we're leaving now because you got fingered in a haunted house last night by a guy.

But I do agree that that is the subtext of that's what's driving this whole scene. I don't know if it's subtext. To me, Allie's response of, I'm not going anywhere, this whole scene as the you know i would even like i don't know if it's subtext because to me ally's response is like of like i'm not going anywhere is like not because i like the seaside like i'm not leaving like have you smelled this coastal air it's because she wants she didn't get to slide down the pole she wants to give it another shot but the only other scenes with women who talk to each other are in the retirement home and it is uh none of those nurses have names right none of those scenes are more than two lines anyway they

yeah those can't pass with joan allen rachel mcadams and gina roland's in it and you can't find a conversation for any of those actors that those actors could read the back of a cheerios box and i would write well okay so i have a few more scenes that could pass or that have women characters interacting with each other. Two female characters. Allie talks to her friend, Sarah,

a couple different times and one of the scenes, Sarah is telling Allie about Noah does not pass. God, that seems so annoying too because Allie's like, isn't it so weird

how he just threw himself at me and she's like, no. That's just what Noah. Later on, wheneverah shows up to the surprise date that he is orchestrated sarah goes you remembered noah don't you and she's like doesn't pass they talk about i mean a scene later on when they're like playing in a body of water birds no birds are not present here. No birds. There's a rope

that they're all swinging from. Oh God, that scene is terrifying. Sarah's like, get in the water. And she's like, I can't. Maybe passes? That is honestly the closest one yet, but I forgot about that scene. Ryan Gosling, she's afraid to jump off the rope

swing, and Ryan Gosling is just on the side like, do it. go for it. Get in the water! Do it. Go for it, baby. Get in! Just try it, honey. You'll have fun.

Get in the fucking water! I mean, jump, baby. Other scenes where women interact. Other scenes where women interact. Allie is chatting with her college friends about james marsden we do not know any other names and they're talking about a man ali is in a group of women at her wedding dress fitting they're squealing about the dress and the wedding but we do not know any of their names and then she passes out in her wedding they faint uh she's on

the top half of the newspaper and then it flops down and Pornel is under the fold with a picture of the house. Poor man renovates haunted house. It's like rich girl getting married. Poor boy does something? Question mark? Another contender for passing the Bechdel test is when old Allie meets all of her female relatives.

Obviously, they know who she is, but she doesn't know who they are. It's all his like those are the kids that they made in their relationship. I don't think like what's your name again counts when they're the literal if it was a character like someone else's family. Maybe that's me stretching but like reintroducing yourself to your kids when you have

dementia and your husband is right there it's still kind of about your relationship that's a tentative pass in that case and and also i like i think that god and i hate that we have to get so into the weeds of like what is a pass but the fact that even if the the daughters in that scene do have names, which I believe they do at some point. She doesn't know their names. So it can't pass if at least the women talking don't even know each other's names. So that,

I was like, that can't. I think that's very ableist of you, but... Those kids only come in to be like, Dad, stop taking care of Mom. So they also only talk about their relationship like they don't true and also what hateful children i like we hate don't you hate how dad loves mom i know they're terrible i will say i'll give this movie credit as a film it is very focused on telling

one story that although we've criticized its negative aspects is very beautiful it's a love story over the over time. And it is just about the relationship of these two people. And in the movie, no one talks about anything else. So it's a weird movie to apply the test to because no one has a conversation about anything else. It's not like two women in the movie would have an opportunity to be like,

did you admire this silver spoon? Its detail is quite exceptional. They talk about nothing except for whether Allie and Noah are going to fuck forever. That is the sole focus of the film. An accomplishment in storytelling. It is a very focused, well-crafted story with not a lot of fat to trim.

Again, that scene with Martha, after Allie shows up and War Widow comes cruising in, knock, knock, knock, I brought you a pie, wink, wink. Allie opens the door and is like, come on in, let's chat. And again, the next scene is like, it's dark out. They just yada yada through all that conversation. They don't talk about anything that isn't just the two of them. Would that scene pass the Bechdel test, though?

He's right there, and the context of their conversation is like, hey, we both have kissed the same man. We're Eskimo sisters. Let's make cornbread or whatever. Oh, wait. Oh, the bingo board has reminded me of something i wanted to talk about that this movie originally uh the the steve buscemi test is basically just a framework that uh makes it so that because ryan gosling is the one you know ryan gosling notorious

hollywood hunk is the one displaying all the predatory behavior at the beginning of this movie. We're conditioned by movies to think that because he's so hot, it's okay. So the idea being, if we sub out Gosling with Buscemi or just someone not considered Hollywood hot, it immediately registers as not okay.

Where if Buscemi shows up in the rain saying, I rode you every day for a year, you call the cops. And it's like, not a question. So that's what that is. Yeah, that's alarmingly true in this film. This only flies because they're both hotties. That's what that is. Yeah. That's alarmingly true in this film. If you sub out. It only flies because they're like both hotties.

Anyone who's not. Right. And if you sub out Rachel McAdams with someone who's not alarmingly hot and she's just hitting Ryan Gosling, you're like, no, this is. But I feel like especially when this movie came out, probably that behavior on her part barely registered. It didn't register for me at all. I forgot that she was hitting him all the time they were teenagers you know i just it occurred to me

what's kind of beautiful about being unconventionally attractive uh is that even if you're rich or poor if you fell in love at 17 as an uncom if you're a buscemi and a lady buscemi and you meet each other oh yeah and you fall Gerwig film and you fall deeply in love and you come back to your mother and father like tooth jutting out over your lower lip nose hair visible whatever your problems are like daddy I found love like you know yeah congratulations

we don't give a shit if he works at a lumber yard this is the best he's a rock shoveler he's got a hump on his back he's just got like you know he's bald but wrong it's just on the sides and not on the top like you know whatever I'm so glad you love our beaver tooth daughter congratulations

I'm gonna buy you that mansion to restore with your huge hands I do want to pitch to our certainly all industry audience my new film Lady Buscemi directed by Greta Greta it's a coming of age

story of a young lady it's a companion to my famous Tony Danza biopic I Tony which will also be coming out in the coming year so check out I'm gonna take these movies led by women and replace them by men

I do want to see Tony Dan led by women and replace them by men. I do want to see Tony Danza land a triple axel, though. Tony Danza's mom, parrot, the Spock haircut. Everything else is the same, but it's Tony Danza. Shall we rate the movie on our nipple scale? Oh, sure. So we have a nipple scale. We'll rate the movie based on its portrayal of women, a zero to five nipples. This is going to be tricky for me because aside from the first 15 minutes, which are very problematic and very irresponsible in the way that they

depict like a budding romance, the rest of the movie, I don't think does that badly in depicting a romance. I think I want to give it two and a half nipples okay yeah i mean between like the like noticeable lack of toxic masculinity again aside from the first 15 minutes of the movie the way that you depict noah and his dad's relationship and other male characters i mean why am i giving credit to them this is not what this podcast is about. Except for gay mustache daddy. I guess Allie is a character I appreciate.

She's generally pretty well developed, I think. She doesn't fall into a lot of tropes that you see in romantic stories. Some of them, yes. But overall, I think she's like pretty dynamic. I mean, she's one of two main characters. She's helping drive the story she's making choices she has agency but you know the movie's not perfect for all the reasons that we've already discussed so yeah I'm gonna two and a half nipples one of them goes to Ryan Gosling's nipple that is exposed in the movie that is the only nip we get uh right one of them i'm gonna give to fabrizio from titanic and the half nipple i'll give to gay mustache daddy's mustache sick yeah let's give him

mustache that's actually very forward thinking of you i would accept a glass of milk from the mustache nipple hell yeah yeah i'll give it two and a half as well. For all the reasons you stated, I think that the other female characters we see in this movie, even the ones that are better developed, like Allie's mom and like Martha, are really, I mean, and again, it's kind of like what you're saying, Caitlin Gill,

that it is because it's just such a focused story that there's not really a B-plot at all. The B-plot is the main characters, but older. The B-plot is like Finn, who's there to set them up on a date once and then die in a war. That's the entire... That was his entire orbit, too. Pretty embarrassing.

Set people up on a date one time, later killed in world war ii uh but uh but like i think that there's little things this movie and this story could have done more to better service its female characters such as not having the best friend only say like you should go with that guy who's threatening to kill himself if you don't go on a date with him the the mom beat even though i didn't totally dislike that scene where it's like at least we get a scene understanding where the mom's coming from and she's not just totally villainized but the fact that it was just like i fucked a poor person once too big mistake but what a great dick like they're this is weird and i also really don't like how the women of color in this movie are

treated where they're i mean every woman of color in this film is in a service position and only one of them is given a name and that is annoying especially considering that this movie takes place in the south and it's just like it's just this weird bizarre blind spot where it's okay like it's like this movie doesn't have to be about race but it's like if you know give your characters a name give them something to do give them you know so for for that reason i'm gonna give it two and a half and give one nipple to ally because i do like her she goes on a you know journey she for a rich girl i don't want to fucking kill her i guess so that's good that's honestly that's true. That is a solid point.

Yeah. One nipple to Ally. I'll give one nipple to James Marsden, who, like, feminist icon James Marsden in this movie. And then I will give a half nipple to the wonderful nurse who's constantly

restraining old dementia Ally, whose name we never get to learn, even though she has to discover them dead. Not fair. Anyways, so those are who I give my nipples to. I'm with you. I'm going to give it two,

because I am frustrated by something I didn't see but felt implied, and you had such great actresses there. I would have liked to feel this tonally in the movie, even in 2004. So much of Ali's choice in the film is between her heart and her common sense, sort of. She has this uncertain but passionate relationship with this guy who built a house for her

and a very steady relationship with a guy who's literally named Lon. By the time she has to make that choice, I, as a film watcher, only feel the tension of those two relationships. When in reality, that character is in a much, like, a larger context of her family and then the context of the stupid world we live in,

where a lot of her choices aren't about her heart or her head. It is circumstance that, like, Allie's parents do have a complicated choice to make realistically they're not crazy for thinking their daughter shouldn't be in this impulsive romance at 17 both for circumstance and other reasons and her mom especially like waiting until that scene where mom takes daughter to go look at the dude she used to fuck to reveal like the complexities of the heart there these are women trapped by choices that aren't made by the men that they're in relationships with like everyone is kind of stuck here gay mustache daddy can't be out he has to marry joan allen like everybody's got

a circumstance binding them and i wish when it got to ali's choice between these two boys that she gets to fuck forever or whatever i wish i didn't feel any of that weight there's no greater social like i know he yells at her like forget what other people want what do you want what do you want and we're supposed to think that's romantic but like like I guess the answer comes in a book about feminism in the 60s like what she wants is to not have her only choices be which guy to marry like what's not on the table is like going to college not to find a husband but like maybe learn something you want to do what's not on the table is like wearing pants like you know

there's so many things she doesn't get to do i'm pretty sure she majors in english too because the one scene we see her in college the professor is talking about walt whitman hey do you think nicholas sparks likes walt whitman i wonder I feel like Nicholas Sparks and like Mitch Albom have this time share together where they just like jerk off for like a week every year and then at the end they're like it's a book we did it. That's the real notebook. The five notebooks you made in heaven.

So those are, I wish that there had been a little bit more influence to that greater choice because it better understands mom's choice to hide the letters and not marry the hunk. Like, for such a closed story, I wish a little bit more of the world had pushed its way in because I think that would have made

this character of Allie more real, and Rachel McAdams is certainly capable of giving you a character with more. Say it was Joan Allen. There was just something missing from the women because all their choices were only about men, and I guess that's implied. Yeah, duh, they don't get to make choices

about anything else. There's no pain from that. There's no weight from that in the film. There are literally birds flying away. That's why I can't give it that extra half nipple, and it's why even though I love love, and I think it's beautiful that you want to be in love forever

And I think love is hard work and relationships are tough and it takes two devoted people who are passionate not just about each other but about their relationship to actually die in a hospital gurney together like That's really beautiful. And I said don't think it's crazy for women and men to want that I'm not inherently like monogamy is whatever but if it it's what you want, do it. Do it for real. Do it like that. Be birds together. But there's so much more that goes into that choice, especially in those circumstances for that character. So two nipples and they go on either side of the Ferris wheel. Beautiful symmetry. And to the point, I think that that is also possibly because it is a love story written by a man. That those points aren't addressed.

And the point of view character is Ryan Gosling. He's pretty much the protagonist of the story. This whole time I was arguing, I was like, oh, is Ryan Gosling mansplaining Rachel McAdams' own life story to her the whole movie? But it turns out it was her notebook I love the theory that we talked about where you just mastered her handwriting and wrote the whole thing and then you were an idiot and you yelled at me but I stuck

with you anyway you forgetful old lady that's like the end of it love Rachel McAdams there's a scene where he's looking through a photo album of like their life together and it's pictures of young James Garner instead of Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams. It's so weird. And it looks nothing like Rachel McAdams.

No. I'm going to see a Michael Jackson black and white fade out of their faces, becoming one. This is another thing stolen from Titanic. The Titanic at least tries to Photoshop. This real hack job in the notebook of two people we've never seen before. And then he's just like, oh, this is nice. I'm like, who are these people? I do feel like that's fan service for

all the grandmas watching it with the 13-year-old on TNT who've been the whole time. Like, they've had to watch James Garner, their sex symbol, their Ryan Gosling, in an old folks home taking his button down off to be in the doctor and this wife beater and he's got this like, oh, at one point, I'll make this very quickly, I'm glad old people got to be sexy

in this movie. I really love sexy old people. I think sex when you're old is passionate and beautiful and so great and I hate it when movies act like it's gross and I thought that was really sweetly handled. She wakes up from her dimensionally dance for a minute. It's very romantic. I like giving old people credit that they still rock hard because they bone down. You know the places where venereal diseases

are spreading the fastest is nursing homes. Yeah. My grandma was the horny... Cheat. Rest in paradise, grandma. Horniest American woman I've ever met in my life. Horniest woman. Yay.

Great. Hey, thanks for coming to our show. Thanks for coming. Thank you, Caitlin Gill, for being our guest. Thank you, Caitlin and Jamie, for having me. Thanks for coming. Thank you, Caitlin. We'll see you later.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's so much beauty in Mexican culture,

like mariachis, delicious cuisine, and even lucha libre. Join us for the new podcast, Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, Emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane,

what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.