The Bechdel Cast - The Perks of Being a Wallflower with Maya Williams

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Wallflowers Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Maya Williams analyze The Perks of Being a Wallflower while driving through a tunnel! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @emmdubb16 on Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante, and @jamieloftusHELP Here is the article from Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault, "Survivorhood Portrayed: The Perks of Being a Wallflower" -- https://www.ccasa.org/survivorhood-portrayed/ Here is more information about the allegations against Ezra Miller and Nicholas Braun, respectively -- https://www.thecut.com/article/ezra-miller-allegations.html and  https://www.yourtango.com/news/nicholas-braun-accusations See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.

Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

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if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Hey Jamie. Hey Caitlin. I feel infinite. Do you feel infinite? Um okay. Um no but okay. Glad you're having a nice time time seems like maybe you've had a pot brownie but like maybe it's your first time doing this yeah yeah it'll feel that way oh my god i texted you this caitlin when we were this is very dark but um first of all i am a recent pittsburgh like obsessive i I love Pittsburgh.

I went for the first time last month and I'm just like, Pittsburgh's amazing. So I was happy to see Pittsburgh. However, every time they're standing up in that damn tunnel, I'm waiting for like a hereditary moment. I was like, this is so like Emma Watson's head is going to burst off, you know? Yeah. I couldn't stop that. I rewatched hereditary recently and that's

on me but like every time they would stay i was like you i went full it's so fun watching teen movies now that you're like now that i'm like aunt aged and i'm just like don't you're gonna you're gonna get hurt kids stop um i loved that scene this movie is so corny i love it yeah all right welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point to initiate larger conversations. But Jamie, what even is that? Oh, well, i can tell you okay the bechdel test was created by queer cartoonist allison bechdel sometimes called the bechdel wallace test uh it was

originally uh written as a one-off joke a bit in allison bechdel's comic collection dykes to watch out for but has since become a metric that people use to um to see how much movies are interested in men so there's a lot of different versions of this test the version we use requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue i guess not people it could be cartoon squirrels i don't know why i said people i feel like that's really putting movies in a box because then car what about cars what about cars and that's a question that only we are brave enough to ask yeah so i apologize for my misspeaking uh not just people anyways that's what the bugle test is yeah also not to

derail us but um your mention of cartoon squirrels reminded me of our episode on national treasure which i recently re-listened to an anticipation of i don't know maybe are we gonna cover national treasure too it's almost like you texted me about it yesterday and we're like and I didn't answer right away and then you're like bump I was like oh my god I was like please answer me right now we have to do it but the joke we kept making in the first National Treasure episode was about how Justin Bartha is basically a cartoon squirrel like Disney animal sidekick person we were right about that yeah we were right about that I think even honestly Justin Bartha would agree would agree and maybe even be flattered I hope I have not I'm you know I'm pro

Bartha it's true you are always have been well that didn't pass the bechdel test no it didn't no it did not oops not even close uh and today we have uh we have two exciting uh bits of news we have a bartha list movie and we have uh an amazing guest we sure do i'm better than jess and bartha that's so nice better than bartha oh new shirt incoming seems a little mean spirited but it's true well i also think he might agree with that i know i like that we have decided that justin bartha is very humble that's just how we've characterized him in our that's head canon for the bechdel cast justin bartha humble yeah maybe that's the merch yeah yeah design sure anyway he could justin bartha not to do the alfred molina game but justin bartha could have played the paul red

character in this movie oh sure bartha i mean not that he should have i feel like paul red cool teacher is like this movie i'm so excited to talk about it because it is like so 2012 even though it takes place in 1991 you're like this is the most 2012 movie that's ever come out we're like emma watson can do an american accent paul red cool teacher like just there she can can do an American accent. Paul Rudd, cool teacher. Like just, she can't do an American accent. For folks who can't see me, I did like a so-so movement. Oh, Emma Watson, you know, what can I say? Yeah. Okay.

Also, I think the word Alfred Molina turns up in the history of like the engine for Bechtelkast like 109 times or something like that. That's so cool. What I hear when you say that is could be higher, could be more. Yeah. And we've still got time. And you're going to get it higher. Yes, you do. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, let's get to work on that. Yeah. In the meantime, the movie today is The Perks of Being a Wallflower. Our guest is a religious, Black, multiracial, non-binary suicide survivor who is currently the seventh Poet Laureate of Portland, Maine. Hell yeah. Their debut collection, Judas and Suicide, is available now via Game Over Books. Maya was one of three artists of color

selected to represent Maine in the Kennedy Center's Arts Across America series in 2020. They recently published essays in venues such as The Daily Beast, Black Girl Nerds, Honey Literary, and The Rumpus. Maya was also selected as one of the Advocates Champions of Pride in 2022. And you can follow more of their work at mayawilliamspoet.com. It's Maya Williams.

Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. welcome thank you thank you thank you thank you i love i love listening to y'all so so much y'all have gotten me through so many so many drives and just so much and y'all are hilarious and y'all are brilliant um and thank you and also jamie ghost church oh my gosh obsessed thank you oh my goodness you're so welcome the the only good thing to happen in florida kind of uh oh we're so happy you're here and happy to be playing this

for a bit so we're covering perks of being a wall fire flower wall fire wallflower long long long time request from our listeners amazing i did not know that yeah i feel like this is like a late millennial classic oh nice but i'm i'm curious yeah so it's oh now we get to hear me say someone's last name for the first time uh written and directed by steven chabosky That was my best guess. Yes, Chbosky, yeah. Let's go with that. And he also wrote the book. So I think it's, I feel like that's very rare where you get an adaptation where it's like,

well, it's just this guy. And usually it like switches hands. So I think it's like really interesting. So Maya, what's your history with The Perks of Being a Wallflower? The movie, the book book the expanded universe my history with it um i read the book when i was in high school i watched the movie and i remember like watching the commentaries as like a teenager too um and and like being so yeah i was so obsessed with it at the time. And then like while writing my poetry collection, Judas and Suicide, I've been revisiting a lot of the movies that first brought up suicidality for me in a formative way. So then I rewatched this movie, rewatched the commentaries and everything. And I'm like, 27 year old me still loves this. And huh fuck charlie uh fuck patrick so i'm really excited to dive in yeah yes here we go yeah there's oh there's there's so much going on in this damn movie jamie what's your relationship with it i really didn't have much of a relationship with this

movie weirdly I think it's like a micro micro generational thing where this came out like when I was early in college and I think I was like I'm I Caitlin I feel like you've talked about this a different for different movies of like I'm in college now I don't watch movies about high schoolers and so I missed this movie. I didn't I didn't see it. And then I just kind of never got around to watching it. And then by the time I thought to watch it, I was like, I don't want to watch a movie with Ezra Miller in it. Right. But it's I was I think last year was the 10 year anniversary of this movie. And I saw a lot written about it sort of as a retrospective. And I'm really excited you brought us this movie and I saw a lot written about it sort of as a retrospective and I'm really excited you brought us this movie because I feel like this movie is

doing a lot and it's also not doing a lot it's a it's a pretty fascinating uh thing I mean I what I will say is I I enjoyed this movie based on it's just like raw sincerity and like i feel like there's especially with movies that are like this baldly sincere people will always kind of dunk on them but yeah i like that i feel like that's teen movies should be wildly sincere uh from time to time that's okay it's just the other stuff that we have to talk about right but yeah i I uh I generally enjoyed this movie and I think it's very interesting to watch with 2023 goggles on I know that if I had seen this movie when I was 12 I would have lost my shit Caitlin what's your history with this movie had you seen it before I had yes I think I don't know maybe three four years ago. I have never read the book. But this is a book that everyone I went to high school with and everyone I went to college with talked about it incessantly. And I went to Penn State for undergrad and did get a

bachelor's degree in film and television, something that I actually never mentioned. But because it's such a Pennsylvania centric movie, and there's lots of references, like when she's like, you have to go to the diner and get grilled stickies. I was like, you do have to do that. But I just never bothered with the book. I don't know why. And then the movie came and went and I was like well into adulthood. So I was like, I don't need to be watching coming of age stories. I've already done that.

I'm perfect. I've done it. But then a few years ago I watched it and then when I started re-watching it for this episode I realized that every memory I have of this movie is actually from Edge of 17 because I think I watched them around the same time and they there's I feel like they're similar coming of age, like high school movies. Though I did see this one. I just didn't remember anything from it. So not much of an attachment to it, except for the reference to Grilled Stickies and

the several references to olive garden oh i mean truly this movie is doing things that others the olive garden reference representation is at an all-time high it's true in this movie and i also i mean not that this is like uh but i i was like how many movies take place in pittsburgh it's just like not a lot the dad is a penguins fan it's kind of fun anyways um yeah yeah this is i mean and also i i guess for listeners this episode and and this movie if you haven't seen it before um yeah there there will be talk about um suicidality as well as child sex abuse in the space of this, which I did not see coming at the end of the movie.

I usually watch stuff twice for the show, but I definitely had to watch this movie twice to go back and watch it with that knowledge. And I don't know, we have so much to talk about. But just if those are sensitive issues for you that's going to come up in this episode for sure let's take a quick break and then come right back for the recap hey everybody this is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang we've got some exciting news for you you know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level.

The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost.

Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hanken's thing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad I felt Bjork's music and I just was like

who is this person I gotta hawk this slalom I'm not hawk this slalom I absolutely love it it was somehow Shakespearean when you said it it was somehow gorgeous yee must flock your hollum

listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes!

Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Santer. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career. Without sacrificing your sanity or sleep.

Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price.

Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad free subscribe to the iHeartTrue Crime Plus channel available exclusively on Apple Podcasts okay so the movie is set in the early 90s in a suburb of Pittsburgh. Ever heard of it? Yeah.

Pittsburgh number one fan. Heinz Ketchup Factory. What a moment. Oh! By Raw Dog Now by Jamie Loftus. Exactly. I was disappointed that they didn't mention how close they were to a ketchup factory the whole movie but yeah major oversight something to think about for next time

we meet charlie played by logan lerman he is writing a letter to someone we don't know who and i think we never find out right right yeah well. Yeah. Well, in the commentary, Stephen Chbosky says, so for the book, he wants to keep dear friend personal to him. But for the movie, dear friend is you, as in the viewer. The audience. And my emotional ass cried. This movie is so corny i love it it is like pure american cheese white american cheese it is american cheese yeah oh god very white yeah emphasis on the white there is only one black actor and he does not speak i was i that i feel like that is also a very 2012 instinct to be like

sure we can have a like an openly queer character but then we'll have to hedge our bets by making sure every cast member is white and you're like no you don't have to do that uh or you could just make a movie like you can just cast a movie to look like a place that exists well but then they were like but it's 2012 which you can tell from the weird oh my god i had really i don't know what a troubled time in youth fashion the early 2010s was where you're seeing like i was like why were we wearing these like little sweaters that were for grandmas but they were actually for teenagers it was so confusing how fem teenagers were just walking around in these little sweaters yes what a moment but again it was set it's set in the early 90s so it should be like 90s fashion i don't know i know but i was

like that's a 2012 little sweater i know that damn sweater. It is not warm. Okay, so he's writing a letter explaining how he spent some time in the hospital. He alludes to some mental health issues. He says he doesn't really have any friends. But tomorrow is his first day of high school and he's hoping to turn things around so he goes to school his sister candace and her boyfriend nina dobrev you're just like vampire diaries degrassi i could go on diet wine i think that's what she's doing right now uh so candace and her boyfriend derrick aka ponytail derrick aka nicholas braun aka cousin greg from succession aka recently disgraced actor nicholas braun yes not only is he a piece of shit it's not the first time he's played a character named derrick because he also

played derrick in zola oh yeah oh my gosh i always forget he's in that movie. Wow. Yeah, he plays a guy named Derek a lot. Gee whiz. Anyways, you hate to see it. Yeah. Okay, so so his sister and Derek won't let Charlie sit with them at lunch because it's the Earth Club is for seniors only and he's a freshman and he's a loser. Also his friend from middle school and his older brother's friend Brad both ignore Charlie. So his attempts to make friends is not working. Then in shop class, he meets Patrick, played by Ezra Miller, who is a senior who is picking on a teacher rather than freshmen as the other seniors tend to do so Charlie immediately likes Patrick quick comment on um and we'll just circle back and acknowledge Ezra Miller stuff a little later in the episode yeah but the actor playing Brad I was like losing

it I was like what I've seen this person I've seen this person and it's because it's young neil from scott pilgrim correct and chip from jennifer's body kind of a camp hero yes this guy true his name's johnny simmons good for him he's the kid who he's the kid who dies in the beginning of 21 jump street oh my god wow what a legacy not to brag but i have 21 and 22 jump street on dvd thoughts brave thank you i i still have not i've seen 21 i haven't seen 22 but people love those movies i think they're very funny although a cabAB includes 21 Jump Street. It does. Yes, it does. It sure does. It does. Anyway.

Yeah. What a career. Johnny Simmons. Yep. So then Charlie goes to English class with his teacher, Mr. Paul Rudd. Oh, my God. Paul Rudd grew out his hair and is like, to kill a bonkie bird. Ever heard of it?

And you're like like this is a lot yes this is so teen movie charlie knows all of the answers to mr paul rudd's questions but he doesn't participate because he's so shy he's a wallflower then at home we meet his mom and dad played by kate walsh and dylan mcdermott who reassure him that he is going to make friends then at a football game charlie approaches patrick they chat they become friendly charlie also meets sam played by emma watson they do this shot or i mean, just like a halo shot. It's just, I just want to really embrace and point out this movie's beautiful corniness where, yeah, the first shot Emma Watson's in,

she's framed like she's God. And there's all these shots where she's like, oh, it's just so, it's weird. Cause I would say she's not really a not like other girls character cause we know a fair amount about her. I think she's not really a not like other girls character because we know a fair amount about her. I think she's like characterized pretty well. But the way she's framed is definitely not like other girls characters. Here's what I wrote in my notes.

Calm pixie dream girl. She's not very manic. She's pretty calm. But she is a pixie dream girl. She's definitely I mean, the pixies there, the dream girls there. But yeah, she's a pixie dream girl. She's definitely, I mean, the pixie's there, the dream girl's there. But yeah, she's pretty chill. Chill pixie dream girl. Yeah. Yeah. Also, her first line of dialogue is something like, I have a question. Oh my God.

Could there be anything more disgusting than the bathrooms or something like that? I'm like, are you Chandler from Friends? Well, ladies and gentlemen, Emma Watson's American accent. She's trying it out and we have to deal with it. The Harry Potter. It gets better in little women. It gets better in little women. It does get better in little women.

Give her seven years. She'll figure it out. Give her seven years. She's very young in this movie. I'm only dunking on her because I would dunk on any of the three main characters in Harry Potter. All of their American accents are bad. Especially, oh my God. Sorry, this is off the rails today.

But Rupert Grint in Knock at the Cabin. Oh my God. They made his character from Boston for some reason. And he's like blowing it. He's like, I don't know why they were like, not only are you doing an American accent, it's like the most difficult regional accent to do. He's like, I don't know why they were like, not only are you doing an American accent, it's like the most difficult regional accent to do. He's like, I'm from Waltham. And you're like, oh, God, this is brutal.

I loved it. It's like when Anya Taylor-Joy, who speaks English with a British accent, was from... Brockton. Brockton, right? Yeah. I know. Yeah. That was a big moment for my hometown.

People thinking that anya taylor joy might be from there um what was that movie again something on the menu right the menu hot girl cheeseburger anyways yeah emma emma watson is a chill pixie dream girl she's wearing her sweaters she's doing her american accent and the movie is like you're in love with her so you're like all right yes indeed so patrick and sam invite charlie to hang out with them after the football game they talk about music oh my god the part where where patrick's like oh don't let her give her music she'll ruin your life and charlie's like that's okay i'm like chill oh it's so sweet no i have too much i have to keep reminding myself that charlie's 14 sure because sometimes i'm just like this

fucking kid i'm like okay he is 14 but i'm like this fucking kid but it's confusing because like whatever logan lerman is visibly 22 so it's hard to be like he's 14 because you're like, but that's all. But that's a man. Well, anyways, what can you do? So Charlie, he finds out that Patrick and Sam are step siblings. He assumes that they're dating, but they're like, no, this is my stepbrother. Then they drive through a tunnel where Sam is like standing up in the bed of Patrick's truck while Heroes by David Bowie plays.

But they're like, oh my God, what is this song? I love, I liked that too. Cause I feel like that is such a teenage thing to hear a really famous song for the first time and then be like, this song rules. And yeah, everyone like over 25 is like,

yeah, it kind of famously does. It's sweet. So then there's a scene where Charlie gets back home from hanging out with his new friends and he sees his sister's boyfriend being physically abusive to her. And she makes him promise not to tell their parents, which will become a recurring motif of like keeping a secret. So we'll put a pin in that. Then it's time for the homecoming dance and Charlie musters up the courage to go on the dance floor

where Patrick and Sam are dancing to Come On Eileen. She's not like the other girls dancing big time. Going for it. Then they go to this kid Bob's party where Patrick introduces Charlie to Mary Elizabeth played by May Whitman and Alice played by Erin Wilhelmi they're part of this friend group as well Charlie eats a weed brownie for the first time not knowing it's a weed brownie so he gets high and he's like, why do the marching band get letterman jackets? It's not even a sport. Yes, it is. And then the other kids are like, this kid's so wild. Like, oh my God.

And it's just like, he didn't say anything at all, really. No, he changed the game that day. Yeah, it's so funny how he's like being only a little bit weird he's being like five percent weird and everyone's like whoa this kid what's going on with this kid you're right we gotta we gotta meet more people but maybe that's just high school yeah yes um he also mentions to sam that his best friend recently died by suicide that's a detail that opens up in the book as to why he's hospitalized because of the death of his friend who died by suicide yeah okay got it so that that is because yeah in the movie it really doesn't come up very much i think

that's the only time it gets mentioned that's right at least explicitly yeah yeah and then while they're still at the party charlie accidentally walks in on patrick and that guy brad kissing and patrick takes charlie aside and asks him to promise not to say anything like this will be our little secret so more of this motif then. Then Patrick toasts Charlie and he says, you're one of us now. You're our friend. You see things. You understand. You're a wallflower.

And we're like, woo, that's the name of the movie. The title. I do find it very endearing though with Charlie's like what did I do and Patrick's like you didn't have to do anything I'm like that's actually very nice you didn't have to do anything there are many elements of this movie that are very sweet

down to the really corny Paul Rudd being like we accept the love we think we deserve and you're like yeah sure it's like very profound in a way that you're like yeah sure like it's very it's like very profound in a way that you're like it's it's too profound but i am crying so whatever yeah i do i do love it i was like he he was right to say it anyways i mean i guess he's not wrong but that also happens in a scene where where charlie goes to mr paul rudd guess he's not wrong. But that also happens in a scene where Charlie goes to Mr. Paul Rudd and he's like, why doesn't the girl I like like me back?

And I'm just like, Charlie. I don't think that's what was happening. I think it was because he saw his sister with the abusive dude in the hallway. And then he came in. Because in the book, he tells the teacher what happened to his sister and it becomes a whole thing. But they don't do that in the movie. Oh, wow. OK.

Yeah. I would love to, you know, hear what because it's I mean, I know that there's also like producer decisions. Like it's not like Stephen Chbosky has like carte blanche with what ends up in the movie. But because he's adapting his own work, I feel like that's really interesting that some stuff is like opened up on in the movies and and other stuff is held back on that's i like that i like that much better yeah yeah i guess i misunderstood i was interpreting that as like because this is also because sam has been dating this guy named craig who says something like i don't write poetry poetry poetry writes me beautiful no notes Maya as a poet oh wow good pictures I know as a poet Maya

does poetry write you does poetry write you Jesus um oh my uh craig is the white cis dude at the open mic who's all like this isn't gonna take long and he exceeds the three minute timeline it's like go home get off the stage and yet is saying nothing at all that part so so anyway so Sam is dating this guy, Craig, and I was interpreting that as like, Charlie's jealous, and he likes Sam, and he wants to date Sam. And he sees that Craig isn't good for her. So that's what I thought that comment was more about in the movie. But in any case charlie has friends now and he like i mentioned has a crush on sam who he likes despite her quote-unquote reputation which we will get into later he gives her a mixtape but again she's dating this kid named craig and then we get that scene where he asks Mr. Paul Rudd about why do nice people date the wrong people and he says we accept the love we think we deserve and then every teenager in the crowd is

like yeah meanwhile Charlie is going with his friends to see Mary Elizabeth's live production of Rocky Horror Picture Show. They're going to parties together. Charlie is helping Sam study for the SATs. I have so many, like as someone who works with youth, I'm just like, how did they get away with performing Rocky like this each time? Especially high school schoolers like this seems like a very involved production that would take a lot of like time and rehearsals and there's costumes and makeup didn't seem like there was an adult involved in the entire not to say that kids could not coordinate this on their own yeah i was sort of i just sort of like wrote down like was this what the early 90s was like i don don't, I mean, the budget for it seems pretty high.

Like, I don't know. I'm like, yeah, where are the adults? Like, who? Also, was I, I'm pretty sure that Emma Watson's hair length changes for just those scenes. Oh, that's a wig. That's a wig, yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, okay, now I can rest. Yeah, she has significantly longer hair. Yeah. In the play. She's Susan Sarandon, which... Sure. Yes.

So they're all hanging out. They're exchanging Christmas gifts. Charlie wants to be a writer when he grows up. So Patrick gives him a suit because back in the day, great writers always wore great suits. And Sam gives him a typewriter. And it's around this point in the movie when I realized that it has basically the same premise as Almost Famous, because both movies are about like a nerdy teen boy who wants to be a writer and who loves music and he falls in love with an older girl who has a quote-unquote bad reputation and who dates shitty older guys and

then the teen boy starts piling around with these like cooler people who introduce him to sex drugs and rock and roll and i'm like wow that is both of these movies this is kind of yeah like a more the pittsburgh version of that exactly but yeah there is i mean and we'll talk about this too but like both of those um the young men that are the leads of those movies yeah it's like made to seem like oh it's they're so accepting that they would be interested in like a girl who quote-unquote gets around or all the you know kind of bizarre phrasing you hear which well okay we'll get back to it right right right and then sam

takes charlie aside and asks if he has ever kissed a girl and he's like no so she kisses him and he's like i'm gonna interject very quickly yeah the book is all is so much more endearing the book is a lot more endearing because like sam talks about like and they briefly mention it in this scene in the movie too but um but yes she talks about how about how her first kiss was with someone that her father knew that was significantly older. So there was abuse going on in the house. And she's crying and Charlie is comforting her. And she's like, I want your first kiss to be with someone who actually loves you because I didn't get that. And it's so much more endearing. And like, so it does disappoint me that like this scene in the movie is more so colored

with like flirty, chill, pixie, dream girl things. Right. Yeah. The way you're describing it sounds real. This does make me want to read the book. It sounds like a very sweet book. I mean, yeah, that seemed like it's certainly not like a standout like bad version of a scene like that but it sounds like it was written a little differently that's interesting yeah

um so yeah they have a kiss and then it's charlie's birthday which is the same day as christmas eve his brother chris comes home from penn state for the holidays it's the same day as Christmas Eve. His brother Chris comes home from Penn State for the holidays. It's the same day that Aunt Helen dies. Yes, many years prior. Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned Aunt Helen yet, but we have been getting a few flashbacks throughout the movie of young Charlie, when he's probably like six or seven or some age around there. And his Aunt Helen, played by Melanie Linsky, who Charlie mentions was his favorite person in the world, and who we learn died in a car accident on his birthday while she was like going to get his birthday gift. And she also

refers to something being their little secret, but we don't know what she's talking about yet. Then Charlie tells his brother that he plans to ask Sam out on New Year's Eve, but she's kissing that guy craig so he does acid instead he i think ends up passing out outside like in the snow yep he's hospitalized there are more allusions to mental health episodes he has had where he was seeing things um some other stuff happens, like Charlie plays Rocky in Mary Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror. Which, sure. She asks him to the Sadie Hawkins dance. Then she takes him home and kisses him.

And she's like, wow, I can't believe you're my boyfriend. And he's like, um, what? And we are like, why is a senior dating a freshman boy i mean yeah i'm today i will not be litigating high school age gaps in dating uh i simply refuse to enter that discourse um however however i love i have mary elizabeth there's like elements of mary elizabeth especially as her story goes on where it's like oh it's so visceral and like painful to to watch how that relationship goes and yes yeah god there were elements of like

mary elizabeth i was like oh that was what I was like when I was a teenage girlfriend. And it's so devastating when you're like, wait, you don't want to talk every single second of every single day? Wild. Yeah. She's a lot. Yeah, she's a lot. In the commentary, Mae Whitman, who plays her, she advocated for Mary Elizabeth's hair to look the way that it does. Originally, Stephen Chbosky was like, nah.

And then he was like, oh, no, actually, this does work. Okay. Nice. Oh, that's the best. So Charlie kind of gets trapped into this relationship that he didn't even know he was in at first. And he doesn't know how to tell her that he does not want to go out with her it's almost like he sees her and he's like her that's a an arrest development reference and then he effectively breaks up with her during a game of truth or dare when patrick dares charlie to kiss the prettiest girl in the room. Oh my God, this scene, it's so stressful.

So Charlie kisses Sam instead of Mary Elizabeth, who is sitting right there. And everyone is really pissed at Charlie and none of his friends want to see him for a while. In this movie, Patrick says a line to Charlie going like, you know, there's this thing between Mary Elizabeth and Sam, you know,

they just have this thing with guys. That shit was not in the book. Oh, really? That was not there. So I'm frustrated by this scene for that reason. Weird. Like fuck Charlie,

fuck Patrick. It's awful. So the movie makes sam and mary elizabeth kind of like frenemies almost in a way that the book didn't yeah huh yeah that sucks i was like because i didn't again that was like something that was just said offhand once and then that's the only insight that you get into their friendship i mean that was like one of the i know that like charlie is the central character of this movie but the fact that you get into their friendship I mean that was like one of the I know that like Charlie is the central character of this movie but the fact that you you don't get to see women

really interact like you see women near each other often but you don't see them talking to each other often which is technically a huge focus of our show but it was a bit but I hated that that I I hate that that's kind of the only insight you get into Sam and Mary Elizabeth's friendship because we're like, they've known each other their whole lives. And this is like the only fact you get about this friendship is that they've like clashed over guys, which is like the most lazy, trite way to. Yeah. Right. trite way to yeah right all right that's that's so weird that that was added like especially because it's like steven chabosky added it right and for what reason yeah yeah it wasn't even in his original source material and he's like i said what if i made it worse yeah and then in that commentary may whitman was like oh this was helpful for my character and i'm like no no this is not helpful no my character and i'm like no no this is not helpful no and

um god i love may whitman i feel like may whitman does way mitman may whitman doesn't get uh the credit she deserves for having like range she's got she's got real range. She does. She's the best. Yes, indeed. Okay. So meanwhile, Patrick's secret boyfriend, Brad, Brad's dad catches them together. So they cannot see each other anymore. And a physical fight breaks out between Patrick and Brad at school. And the like jock guys start punching Patrick. But Charlie steps in, he seems to kind of black out. And when he comes to, he has beaten the guys who were ganging up on Patrick, effectively saving Patrick. Because of this, because of like Charlie standing up for Patrick, his friends forgive him and let Charlie back into the friend group. One night, Patrick confides in Charlie about what happened between him and Brad. And then Patrick surprise kisses Charlie. He then apologizes. And Patrick just seems, you know, very lonely and upset. I'm not

excusing him surprise kissing someone, but that's kind of the context of that scene. But then things start to look up for everyone. Because Mary Elizabeth has a new boyfriend, she got into Harvard, Sam is going to Penn State. Patrick is going to the University of Washington. Everyone is excited and they're doing great, except for Charlie, whose mental health seems to be getting worse, especially knowing that all of his friends are about to leave. Then it's the last day of school. Sam is getting ready to head to Penn State for the summer semester, which, by the way, is something that Penn State made me do, too.

They're like, oh, if you want to start at main campus. Oh, that's a thing? Yeah. I think they, I honestly think it's actually a money-making scheme, but they're just like, we don't think you're ready for main campus yet. So you can either come in the summer or you can go to a branch campus for two years and then transfer to main campus yet. So you can either come in the summer, or you can go to a branch campus for two years and then transfer to main campus. And they made it seem like my grades weren't good enough or something, or I don't even know what, but they're like, we don't think you're going to

succeed here unless you give us extra money. So I went to, I had to start early and go in the summer and I was so unhappy about it. But then when I was there, I was like, oh wait, I hate my hometown and this is much better. Yeah. Which I do like that they basically have Sam have that reaction where Sam was like, yeah, the second I left here, my life got way better, but it's nice to see you and it's like yeah that's the best case scenario okay so uh sam is getting ready to head to penn state and she's like charlie why didn't you ever ask me out and he's like i'm shy and then he kisses her and then they have sex i think it's implied uh in the book they start doing so and then as she's touching him he's like stop and starts crying um and he's like i'm not i'm not ready and and we we know why um right right in the movie they they kiss and then that does happen

where she like puts her hand on his knee or something and he's like he kind of withdraws and she's like what's the matter and he's like nothing and then they start kissing again and then they kind of like collapse onto the bed and then the camera pans up the way the camera pans up when people start having sex in a movie so i'm like i think it's implied that they have sex, but it's not totally clear. Either way, they say goodbye the next day and she leaves, which kind of triggers a flood of memories for Charlie. Things from his recent past, as well as more flashbacks of Aunt Helen, which indicate that she was sexually abusing him as a child he starts crying and having a breakdown

he is blaming himself for his aunt dying because again she was killed on her way to go get his gift but he's like what if i wanted her to die because of the abuse and then we cut to him in the hospital where with the help of dr joan kusak he starts to what a fun twist we're you're just like okay great yep so he starts to acknowledge what happened and he starts to heal he goes back home with his family uh sam comes home from penn state to visit after a few months and she's like i finally found the tunnel song it's by someone i don't know if you've heard of him david bowie anyway um the tunnel song's different in the book i forget which one but i know it's definitely not a date book. Something that they couldn't get the rights to, probably. I read it was

Landslide by Fleetwood Mac. Which I think would actually be kind... I don't know. I'm sure it would be beautiful, but I feel like it would also be... I don't know. I feel like they went with a good song for it. Landslide's too slow for a tunnel moment. It's a bit of a downer.

That's true. And also, in the book, they're not, like, standing up against the car, either, so. Oh, really? Gotta make it cinema-worthy, I guess, and have stunt coordinators with them standing against the car and shit. It seems so dangerous. Like you said, Jamie,

a head could pop off at any moment. Yeah, throughout the commentary, they were all like, don't try this at home. There is a harness. i want to listen to the commentary now it sounds very wholesome so anyway they go through the tunnel again and now it's charlie's turn to stand up as david bowie is playing and that is the end of the movie. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang.

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I just wanted to before we get into the discussion just acknowledge that this is the movie that like made Ezra Miller a star and I don't know it's like often difficult to like know how to like address stuff like this on our show and then just go into the conversation but like we are very well aware of the allegations um and just proven abuses that Ezra Miller Miller that have surfaced about Ezra Miller we we're going to include a link in the description if you're not aware and you want to sort of be brought up to speed I don't think that this is like really the place to go into things in detail but yes I think it's worth acknowledging that like azra miller seems like a pretty spectacularly abusive person and has benefited from so much privilege that they

are still as we were recording like the flash came out this weekend and they're still you know headlining these huge banner movies um and at the time of this recording the director of the flash is like yeah i know all about the stuff that ezra did but i have no intention of recasting them no comment they're gonna stay in the flash series so it's the classic Hollywood story of abusers allowing to continue having a career because people don't want to hold people accountable. Well, and particularly white actors being shielded from any consequence. So I just wanted to acknowledge that at the top. Yes. Is there a link? Is there going to be a link available for Nicholas Braun too? Because I had no idea until y'all mentioned it. Yes, yes, we will is there a link is there going to be a link available for nicholas braun too because i had no idea until y'all mentioned it yes yes we will definitely include a link and what i noticed is that it hasn't been covered by the bigger media outlets um which i wonder why

that is but yeah it feels like it's been kind of swept under the rug. It was very, yeah, it did get, it felt very like media timing, like got swept under the rug because Succession was currently airing. Yeah. And now that Succession is over, it's like, okay, can we discuss this now? Like, for fuck's sake. Anyways, we'll include both of those links. And there's, yeah, elements of this movie that certainly age like milk, those casting choices being two of them. Anyways, as far as the movie goes, Maya, where would you like to start the discussion?

Does anything jump out at you? The scene where Charlie's on phone with his sister and she's like get the police to my house like oh my god oh my god it's so weird how like when i was younger watching this movie i didn't i didn't think anything of it and then now i watch this movie and i'm and i'm just like oh this movie is so white if this featured a black family this would not have gone well and it's so weird like the american association of suicide prevention did a study on uh entertainment media and suicidality and the majority of folks that are typically showcased are white and typically when black people are are showcased they're not showcased having like a healing arc or anything like that

whereas charlie here gets one um and of course like all these positive interactions with law enforcement and in the book too like he charlie talks extensively about the nice cop who comforted uh his his mom uh having to report the death of his aunt or whatever and like god and in the in the commentary they're all like oh look who made a cameo appearance emma watson's bodyguard ooh uh former nypd ooh and it's like yeah it's gross so every aspect of like law enforcement that's infiltrated in the book in the film do not sit right with me um yeah yeah it was a lot of course yeah that's I was curious of like how that was covered in the book as well. I mean, I guess like, the further back you go, probably the more blatant it goes. Yeah, because that I feel like that is like a showing of like, the writer's hand as coming from privilege, especially

being white and also being what we see in a lot of teen movies where this movie isn't an exception, where it's like, they're from like a wealthy suburb um right doesn't mean they don't have problems but like right another wealthy suburb uh big mansion party teenager kind of movie yes and then charlie says like oh like oh you got to get me out of here i can't afford being hospitalized and joe keys it's like oh don't worry about that i'm like yes i'm gonna worry about Cusack's like, oh, don't worry about that. I'm like, yes, I'm going to worry about this. What? It's like, yeah. And I remember thinking that when I was younger, too. I remember thinking that as a teenager, that'd be my main critique as a teenager. I'm like, the fuck? Yeah, that's something that I wonder how Stephen, I read a few retrospective interviews, but I didn't see that

specific point come up and I was kind of hoping that it would because I do think that like yeah I mean the cops are bad at everything uh perpetuate harm at every level but like specific like are uniquely bad at dealing with mental health crises like that's well known and I don't know I don't know even the way it's framed in the movie you're like how could this possibly be helpful like they're kicking in the door and scaring him but right yeah the way that i don't know i i my i'm curious how what you think is because i feel like this movie has its heart in the right place in like wanting to address suicidality and wanting to start a discussion about these issues in a genuine way.

And then, yeah, there's like elements that it's just like, clearly this perspective is really, really privileged or, or just like not really thought through. Yeah. Yeah.

This book was, so the, the book that this movie is based on is controversial in the sense that it's been banned a lot because of its material. You know, it addresses things like suicidal ideation and queerness and drug use among teens and different things that, you you know conservative people and parents are like i don't want my kids reading about this so i appreciate that the book and the movie is willing to tackle those things because a lot of coming of age movies or like teen movies are i don't know they're either kind of like milk toast or they aren't necessarily getting into like what it's really like to be a teenager but this is secret life of the American teenager

are you saying because Shailene's in not in this movie she's in most of the other ones though it's kind of shocking that Shailene woodley isn't in this movie i know right it's such a shailene woodley coded movie right but my point is like the perspective is so so white and everything is told through this extremely white privileged lens that it isn't a like authentic teen experience for so many people so it's hard to stomach in that way because even though I again I appreciate its willingness to to tackle some of the darker aspects of of life it is done so through such a privileged lens yeah it definitely like it's and we've talked about this on the show before too where it's like no one movie can address every single perspective but this movie sure had space to address far more than it chose

to yeah where yeah i mean it's like you're in like pittsburgh is a far more diverse city than this uh movie would like you to believe there was certainly room for like actually building out some of the uh the women that appear in this story more uh there is room for class diversity within this movie that you don't really see, except kind of in passing. So, yeah, it's like it's I feel like this this is feels very like stepping stone movie where it's like, OK. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, well, we'll address these serious issues that should be addressed in teen media, but everything else will be surround like encased in whiteness and in privilege. It's like Stephen Chbosky had said, oh, it's such a huge thing getting this movie made because movies like this don't get made. And on one hand, I don't want to take away the fact that, yes, movies are hard to get made. And at the time this movie was made, the actors weren't paid as well as they could have been and whatnot because everyone cared about the movie.

And at the same time it's like you still got into theaters you still have all of these white faces you still received enough critical acclaim to be talked about years later there are very much movies like this still being made so it's

just do better truly yeah fucking dear Evan Hansen I was about to say and then the fact that he clearly did not learn very much because he went on to direct only one black person one like and and in many ways i mean i have i honestly like i did not get all the way through dear evan hansen the movie i was like i'm out can't do it. No, I didn't even start it. But it is like in many ways, like an even clumsier attempt

to address many of the themes in this movie. So you're like, well, I guess we know that Stephen Chbosky didn't grow as a person between 2012 and 2022. Good to know. Very, very bizarre. Yeah there maybe someday we'll punish ourselves and cover dear evan hansen could be fun okay or not please invite me back yeah oh my god it feels like punishment to be like all right let's same themes same amount of oppressive uh rich white

teenagers but now they sing talking about it with y'all i would have a really good time and also i have i have a book coming out in october so it's like listen yeah if you want to be our resident steven chabosky guest by all means the best um the next thing i would like to talk about is the several references to Sam's quote unquote bad reputation slash shameful history. Yeah. his sister about Sam saying that when she was a freshman, the upperclassmen would get her drunk at parties, dot, dot, dot, I guess she had a reputation. The implication there being that she would get drunk and then have sex with these people at parties. And then Charlie goes on to say, but I don't care. I'd hate for her to judge me based on what I used to be like.

Not like other boys. Fast forward a little bit in that scene where they're talking about having their first kiss. This is when Sam reveals that her first kiss was when she was 11 and her first kiss was with her dad's boss so an adult man she's 11 we're like oh my god that is so awful yeah and then she pushes past it and then she starts talking about how she's like i used to sleep with guys who treated me like shit and get wasted all the time but now i feel like i have a chance. So she's like talking about like, turning her life around. And so the way that she talks about her experience, and the way that her friends seem to interpret her experience, they're all like, wow, she used to be on a really

bad path. And it was all her fault fault but look at her turning around yeah and it's unclear if she was consenting or able to consent to the sex that she was having with these right upperclassmen right there's like not enough information right and in the in the commentary steven jabowski is all like oh it was very important for me to emphasize this redemptive arc for sam and i'm like this feels gross redemption from what exactly oh that that's okay that was a question that i had about the uh because i was like is because on one hand it's like okay it is not inconceivable to me that that's how teenagers in the early 90s might talk about that for sure but if you're going to do that then the movie has to like provide some sort of commentary that that was an unfair way

for her to be treated and not just like exactly but it's clear that okay so like that's just how steven chabosky feels is that like you a teenage girl would need redemption from potentially being having sex regularly assaulted right yeah right and it's like yeah and also i think it conflates um just the way that it's discussed in the movies so generally conflates situations that were consenting versus not where for me at least it was really hard to track what they were talking about a lot of the time because she described being assaulted. And then it seems like maybe also she's having like she's had, it's just like unclear what's going on. Right? Well, the movie frames it that when she's talking about it, she's speaking as though it was consensual. She's like, I used to get drunk

and sleep with these guys because I was making bad decisions. Tee hee. And now she feels all this shame attached to it, which. So the movie's framing from her point of view, the sex she had was consensual, which may or may not be true. Like there's a spectrum of drunkenness where at least for me. Yeah. You can still consent. And it is not clear where. I think we just don't have enough information.

We just don't have enough information. Right. But even if she was consenting, there's still a power imbalance where she was a freshman. So she's like 14. Right. And we're talking about upperclassmen so may you know probably like 16 17 maybe 18 year old like junior seniors were led to believe so yeah there's still a significant power imbalance here yeah the point is the movie makes it seem like she was just making careless decisions

and it's all her fault. And now she's turning her life around. And her friends are like, oh, wow, that was a pretty shameful time of your past. But we're not going to judge you for it. You know, you're turning yourself around now. So it's OK. That's how the movie feels. That's clearly how Stephen Chbosky feels.

Right. Apparently said. that's how the movie feels that's clearly how steven chabosky yeah feels right apparently said and jb i want to honor what you said about like not wanting to get too much into like high school age gap discourse i do want to honor that and it's just very telling about what what high schoolers tend to go through whenever you're seeking friendships and oftentimes with those age gaps it's all like oh you seem so mature for your for your age and it's like and how that creates a sense of trauma and also it's like uh if i seem mature for my age that also comes from trauma and you're just putting on more trauma by being my friend or

pretending to be my friend and like yeah right and then so jamie to your point about the movie's conflation with like sam it's presented as though what she was doing was consensual. It was her choice. Right. When we're actually told that much of it is not consensual and is actively abuse and assault. Right. But it's conflating that with. Yeah.

Because a lot of those moments are accompanied by the flashbacks with young charlie and aunt helen and then we learn right that she was sexually abusing him yeah it's a it's a swing and a miss on a huge issue yeah yeah and with charlie having this knowledge earlier in the movie why would you not only hurt Mary Elizabeth why would you hurt Sam like that yeah right it's so like it's there are ways that like characters can make mistakes but the movie has to like it's the responsibility of the writer in the movie to telegraph that to their very young audience because it just feels like an endorsement of like a view of consent in a way that's really confusing and like does not jive with a lot of the events and themes of

the movie and just like the theme of how to treat young people having sex at all yeah I think like Sam feeling the way she feels all like all of this shame is completely understandable because people especially in this time frame and even when the movie came out in 2012 we were still being conditioned to think that like if we were the victim of assault it was our fault and you know all of this victim blaming and slut shaming that's so pervasive because of rape culture it stands to reason that sam would be having these feelings of shame and that maybe even some of her friends would be like yeah i agree like reinforcing them yeah because again we are all products of our environment and we are, we've all been conditioned to think this

way. But if there was at least one character who was like, maybe someone older, maybe, you know, a parent or someone who could say, like, I understand why you feel this way, but you don't need to, because like, this is not your fault. You are not to blame here something that would make it clear that this attitude of like victim blaming and slut shaming is not the right attitude but that's again like we said just clearly what steven chabosky how he feels so there's nothing in the movie that challenges this like very toxic mentality right like even when it comes to patrick is supposed to be like this cool step step brother to her and like and even he makes comments in the movies such as like oh look at that toasty outfit it's not like it's original or anything or like making comments like

like like oh my god i told her don't make yourself so small it's like it's like when when when gay men think it's okay that casual sexism is totally fine casual sexism way too casual for me for Patrick and it's like it's gross yeah right yes yes uh very much I think like an active trope and also just like bad queer representation on top of that yeah yeah I it reminds me so much it's it's this is such a weird movie to kind of pick apart because i think that like steven chubosky in certain cases as a writer dodges um what you kind of come to expect of like i think he wrote this book when he was like late 20s early 30s but essentially like i think he wrote it when he was in college okay well that doesn't really he's writing this script as a man in his 40s and

still has the same opinions of young women's sexuality and the shame associated with it and the complete conflation of abuse and consensual sex and not making really an effort to say yeah it's just it's it's unfair to sam's character and then yeah it's like it especially because he says himself like that oh isn't it like you know making it seem like oh i'm so creatively generous to have the people in her life forgive her for this and you're like well you haven't even given us enough information to know what you're allegedly forgiving her like but no matter what that answer is she doesn't need forgiveness like whether it's consensual or especially if it's an abuse like what are you talking about is confusing exactly yeah like no redemption arc needed like it's talking about her like she's kylo ren or some shit like you're just

like what are you talking about right yeah like she did not do anything wrong all she wanted to do was get better sat scores right yeah i i do like i think that like that element of sam is just like she's so disserviced by it because i do yeah um i do like her character yeah um what else would we like to talk about oh i mean so many places we could go um i guess this was i i didn't know very much about this movie i didn't know that uh and i think um in a teen movie in 2012 having out gay characters that are very beloved and also like main characters um was pretty unique at the time if i'm remembering yeah 2012 correctly and uh i'm curious of how everyone feels it was handled it's tricky because it's like i you have to put on your 2012 goggles and also your early 90s goggles. Yeah.

Because there is like inherent, I don't know, it felt kind of like a two hander where on one hand, parts of like Patrick's experience is defined by trauma and rejection of like, he is in love with brad but they have to keep it secret partially for stigma and shame but also for brad's physical safety from his very religious parents and that's a story that we've certainly seen over the years and is unfortunately like reflected in so much of history and so so but a deeply like traumatic queer love story but I also feel like Stephen Chbosky did give Patrick a lot of room to just like be a person too and like experience joy and like that's not the only thing that we know about Patrick it's a very like and I think that is like also true for Charlie and how his experience being sexually abused as a as a child you can see that it clearly influences his life and makes it much more difficult but it doesn't define his life and I feel like that is something that you

don't really I'm not saying it's perfectly done but I appreciated his life and I feel like that is something that you don't really I'm not saying it's perfectly done but I appreciated the attempts because I feel like so often that is like well this is the trauma that defines my entire life and my story outside of this like who cares and well these are male characters so they're allowed to not have interesting that sam does not get that same like right yeah exactly yeah because sam is defined by her like being like i think truly do make it sound like and this is like callous but they make it sound like she's like cured of being a slut and that's why she gets to go to college yeah shut the fuck up like what yeah a lot of like a lot of steven chabaski's dialogue during the commentary was like like for patrick he was like my number one rule for patrick is like don't

make him a victim and then like we're talking about sam it's like oh this redemptive arc was just so powerful for me and it's like what the fuck ridiculous which which sucks because i i generally liked the care taken so that patrick was not framed as like a tragic victim and does like this is a horrible experience. And we see that his character moves on. And that's really important. But also it's like, it's so clear who Stephen Chbosky is comfortable extending that to and who he's not yeah i also question because the book was written in the 90s like if if stephen jabosky had that terminology at the time would he have articulated charlie as as queer because like in the book he talks about how like oh my dad's excited that i'm dating uh mary elizabeth because he got concerned that i kept kissing this boy in the neighborhood oh wow right and the part where patrick initially kisses charlie without his consent uh then charlie goes like no really it's it's okay and they and patrick and charlie spent a lot of time kissing in the car night after night but sam does interrogate charlie about about this later because

sam's concern was that I don't think you were being a good friend to Patrick because you let him talk about his sorrows and you sat there and said nothing and you let him kiss you and you did nothing and you're not establishing your your own boundaries as a friend you can then which goes back to the movie where she's like you can't just sit back and be quiet and call that love that's not how this works right that's so interesting it's i i was like i i gotta read this damn book because i like because i did i i another like 2012-y thing where i was like oh okay this movie like it is inclusive of queer people unlike most teen movies were at this time but also you're like oh this movie subscribes to there are two kinds of people they're gay or they're straight um but it sounds

like the the book may have been more inclusive than that but the movie didn't or i feel like i don't know at least movie charlie to me I thought was coded like pretty straight right right whereas in the book maybe he's bi or somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum figuring it out or he's too much of a wallflower to tell someone he doesn't want to kiss them I don't know identifies as wallflower like I think I think the term he does use in the book is straight. But still, it's like it's like for me, it's like, right. I mean, yeah, he's 14. He's yeah, probably still figuring it out.

Right. And it's like not like 14 year olds in the early 90s were using. And oh, in the book, he's 15. He's 15. He had to stay back because he had to be hospitalized. He's 15. Okay. Okay. Why don't they just do that in the book, he's 15. He's 15. He had to stay back in grade because he had to be hospitalized. He's 15. Okay, okay.

Why don't they just do that in the movie? Well, I mean, not that it makes that much of a difference, but it's like everyone is 22. Which, like, you might as well say they're older than 14. Because I don't know. For some reason, like 14 for me is like, okay, so like a child. And I'm looking at Percy Jackson and it's like but that's a man remember the Percy Jackson movies for some reason I did see those even though I think it was technically too old to see them but I'm like I'm gonna see Percy Jackson the lightning thief should we cover them they kind of suck to be honest but like yeah I don't know I also don't

really know what happened to Logan Lerman. Every time I hear his name, I'm like, sounds like, sure, that's a guy. Like, I don't buy it. He's in a show now. I'm forgetting the name of it. And I feel bad because I have a friend and a fellow press mate who wrote a beautiful poem about him. And like the importance of like jewish representation and like television and stuff and like oh that's cool i didn't know he was jewish yeah i was just thinking there's

so many people who are currently famous there's just like so many white millennial actors in this damn movie there's like one one shot of julia garner and you're like whoa she's so famous now but they like they mention her in passing where they're like oh is she the friend susan susan yes she was on that inventing anna show she played anna delvey i don't know that um it's icon it's an iconically bad shonda rimes show and julia garner plays a scammer and with this horrible accent and she's always like why are you poor and you're like like it's just um okay well viewers have invented okay you're looking at me like i have six heads but listeners of this show right now do know what i'm talking about okay i swear i believe you i believe

you shondaland will show up to the back to the cast so help me i know they will. So to go back to just the movie's approach to queerness, the narrative between like the book and the movie was perhaps a little ahead of its time in its willingness to have a queer character and fully characterize them. And even though something traumatic happens to them, they are not defined by their trauma and they are given an ending that is like positive

and like it seems as though Patrick has a bright future. They turn the camera to him when Charlie talks about like, and everyone's going to become mothers and fathers. And it's like, yeah, queer people can be parents too. And it's like, yeah, queer people can be parents too. And it's like- Brave. 2012, what a time. Right.

But yeah, I don't know. I guess it's like, like we said, like a stepping stone kind of situation where there's certainly better queer representation now but you know for the time it was maybe a bit ahead yeah above above average and then i think uh we should definitely talk about um it feels kind of callous to call it a reveal but that is kind of how it's presented uh in the story especially if you're me and you really don't know what happens in the movie the perks of being a wallflower where you find out at the very end of the movie it's so weird

because you it does feel like the movie's about to end and then you're like wait there's 20 minutes what's going on where you find out the aunt uh who away when Charlie was very young had been sexually abusing him up until her death. through his experiences in this year and also like in that that moment with sam where she touches his leg that it resurfaces and he understandably goes to a very dark place um and has to be hospitalized i yeah i i'm curious of how that was discussed on the commentary yeah in the commentary uh the original writing of the script was having the reveal take place like right after sam first touches uh charlie's leg and then summit entertainment had said like push that a little bit farther we want uh we we don't want this moment for charlie to be interrupted or like something like that interesting yeah that's so it's like i don't really know how to feel about it like there is an element of that like creative choice of like making it a

reveal to be like hmm why is this a twist at the end of the movie it's similar similarly comes up in the book too real it's like i don't know i guess it's like if i'm i i genuinely don't know how i feel about it because in one way it's like you see charlie as you know i i feel like it's so i don't know like even especially having like gone through the whole process of making lolita podcast and writing and researching that topic. So intense. Another great podcast of yours too. Oh my God. So good. Thank you. Yeah. This is the plug section of the podcast. And, and being very lucky to have not experienced that myself. Like,

I don't know. I think it can be seen as a good thing that we get to know Charlie so thoroughly outside of that context because survivors of that kind of abuse. Again, it's just like, oh, this is the defining event of my life or that's how it's very often framed. But then it's just like it does feel so bizarre to have it be like the twist. But I don't know. I don't know. is there how did everyone feel about that I just I it was it was a choice it was a choice that was made and I don't know it just made me think I don't know how to feel about it yeah I'm I'm similarly uncertain and I think it could be

helpful for for boys teenage boys young men or any kind of mask presenting person who has experienced this type of abuse. Because so often when we think about sexual abuse, it's in reference to women and femmes. Yes. And it rarely gets explored in media unless you're talking about like spotlight or something and it's also very rare in media that an adult woman is portrayed as the perpetrator yeah right because it does happen i've got some not i sounded way too chipper i was like i have some stats they're fucking horrible but i do have them um this is i i found a piece um that appears in the colorado coalition against sexual assaults as written in 2014 uh by megan mccluskey that talks

about the portrayal of a csa survivor in Perks of Being a Wallflower. I believe she is talking about the book here, but I just wanted to sort of share. This writer feels like it was a pretty solid portrayal of a young person processing that experience. So I have two chunks. Quote, Charlie concludes in his final letters and perks that he was sexually abused in early childhood by his Aunt Helen, who is now deceased. Jabosky's decision to feature a male victim of sexual violence along with a female perpetrator erodes the persistent female victim slash male offender paradigm. In actuality, it is likely that more than 16% of men

have survived sexual abuse by the age of 18. And while the majority of these young victims were assaulted by adult men, the existence of sexually abusive adult women is receiving increased attention. The fact that Charlie's abuse was committed by a trusted and beloved family member is also consistent with reality. More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrators. Charlie's fondness for Aunt Helen and his prolonged grief over her accidental death is a poignant representation of the convoluted emotions many survivors of sexual assault experience toward those who abuse them.

She goes on to discuss, and I won't get too into it because it's a longer passage, but essentially says that she feels that Chbosky does a pretty solid job of portraying how that often bears out to the reason Charlie is so shy and connected to panic attacks and how the death of his close friend could have exacerbated that. And I don't know, I it was really interesting to read. I will. We can link it in the episode as well. But that was something that I didn't see. I'm curious how, I mean, I can't speak to this experience, but it seems like it was generally well regarded and like how Charlie's character is treated and portrayed. has experienced that and you know allow them to feel especially because the story is told from the point of view of the survivor of abuse where when it is brought up in media a lot of times it's not their story it's not the survivor's story it's another character who we're not getting you know an inside look into their life and their feelings and their experiences. So, yeah, I think it could easily be helpful.

I think it could also easily be triggering for people, you know, but as far as how it's handled. Definitely a movie you should go in with your eyes open. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But as far as how it's handled, nothing really struck me as something to really be concerned about from a representation point of view. But I mean, I think that that does circle back to why does Sam not receive this same grace and treatment? Yeah, I mean, I think that the way it's handled in Charlie's character is, I mean,

just based on other ways I've seen this story portrayed, like pretty well done, especially for its time. And I also like that they took the moment, I don't know if this happens in the book, but they took the moment to show that his he was believed by his family and supported because that's, you know, like another element that can, like, corny and cathartic and sweet. And, you know, maybe two seconds after the camera shuts off, he gets decapitated within the tunnel. We don't really know. Hopefully that's not what happens.

And he goes on to have a great high school experience. That's what I want from him. But I like literally, that's, there's a lot of difficult scenes in this movie, but watching these kids go through that damn tunnel

is so stressful for me. Actually, honestly, having seen Hereditary, I assume that that's going to happen now for any character who just sticks their head

out of a window. So say what you will about Ari Aster, but he really does make you think about heads popping off all the time. He really sears an image into your brain that you will never forget or recover from what a legacy

but but but anyways yeah just to sort of close close that loop as well done as I thought Charlie's story was handled in that regard and how how how thoughtfully it was again with Sam, it's just mentioned and she still needs this. It's just like, it, it, I just want to sit inside of Stephen Chbosky's brain for a second to be like,

why, why is it so different between these two characters? I mean, yeah, that extends to basically all the female characters in the movie. Because his sister as well. His sister and Mary Elizabeth and Mary Elizabeth's friend who is sometimes in the movie. Yeah.

Speaking of Charlie's sister. Yes. scene that is from the book where candace charlie's sister is pregnant and she needs charlie's help uh when it comes to her getting an abortion what's all this and and it's a time where she and charlie are connecting more um and steven chabaski had said that he ended up deleting it because he said it was too emotionally intense and wanted to prevent emotional fatigue. And I have feelings about that, especially when it comes to young people who could have really benefited from seeing that. And also part of me is like, are you doing that so that you can prevent a rated R warning? Because I don't think that's fair either. Interesting.

Right. Because, I mean, abortion has always been such an issue that Hollywood has really avoided wanting to put on screen until like extremely recently. Yeah. Yeah. That's so. And does that. Sorry. Does that happen in the book?

It does. It does. That's so. and does that, sorry, does that happen in the book? It does. It does. That's so, yeah. Cause I, I totally agree, especially in 2012. It's like there,

there are so many, and when the audience of this movie is obviously, I guess teenagers, but I would actually guess closer to middle schoolers. I feel like stories about high schoolers are more often consumed by people a little bit younger who are looking forward to high school. And yeah, like, especially if it was well handled, i don't i don't know it's like i don't necessarily trust him as a director to sure uh because maybe it would have just been a scene

where nina dobrov would have been like i'm so ashamed and then charlie's like it's okay i forgive you and you're like yeah it wasn't like that um like what what i do what i do take issue with is like steven chabaski's continuously calling nina debrev uh an unsung hero and how like during the actor's commentary in this scene where where she first gets hit by her boyfriend uh some some of the uh ezra miller uh is a is as cracking a joke as a way to like suage the awkwardness of having to watch her get hurt

by saying like oh Nina DeBreath could beat all our asses or whatever and it's like the fuck show me a clip that's aged worse

ugh gross yeah that was I that was another sort of small element of this story that I wasn't prepared for.

That again, I just, I feel like it is a relevant topic of discussion and something that obviously happens all the time and happens to young people all the time. And the movie didn't really give it the space it needed to be discussed because you see right yeah like i and i don't think that that was like intentionally exploitative but i just i i don't like that they showed the worst of it and showed us physical abuse and then did not give her character any really on-screen time to process it. Right. I thought it was an interesting start to having that conversation when she basically tries to justify the abuse to her brother.

I know that's a very common part of an experience like that. I've been the person saying that to a loved one before, and I think that that's an important but but but then that's sort of that's it the end of it you just find out at the end like oh she broke up with him which great glad yeah but the fact that you only you see abuse you see her justifying the abuse and then yeah any journey that she has takes place off screen which i'm realizing now that all of the female characters or at least like the teens are defined by the boys they like or who they're dating because you've got you know the sister she's in this abusive relationship and then there's a beat

where it's like she decided to break up with him and she went with her friends to prom right but then the next the final beat of her like barely a story arc is she met a guy at her summer job and she's dating him now and he's nice yes same with mary elizabeth of like well she started dating this other guy so she's i mean also i mean honestly i was kind of glad that mary elizabeth started dating someone else because i was like yeah that was her partner in real life at the time i don't know whether or not they're still together but like yeah she she really she really advocated for her boyfriend to be in the movie wow she's like i want a bad haircut i want my boyfriend in the movie good for you may whitman sure why not but like she didn't need to get with

someone else like no she didn't the she got into harvard like she's fine right yeah she's gonna start a romance two seconds before she leaves for school that's silly right and and that like sam i think we see this a lot like sam is probably not with charlie forever but i feel like her ending up with charlie to some extent um is this sim like a sign that like she's left her old ways in the past and this relationship is symbolic that like she's gonna be okay and you're like she's with a nice or she could just be okay like right or she could just be okay yeah yeah but especially with his sister who's i keep i kept just being like nina dobrev um candace yes god this made me want to revisit nina dobrev's arcs in degrassi which is how the world met her she dated spinner she's a teen mom she's kind of

a legend on the show degrassi heads will know Is this why I don't know her? Because I've never seen Degrassi. Sorry. You don't watch enough trashy TV. And that's something that I've wanted to talk to you about. She's kind of a legend of... Degrassi is not trashy TV, except sometimes. Except when it is. Except when it really is.

And then you're just like, these Canadians need to relax. This is a part of my shameful history but i'm gonna turn things around and it's all my fault i'm charlie i forgive you for your negligent ways and then she's on a show that's just straight up trash but i have seen a lot of and princess weeks has made some amazing videos about uh the vampire diaries which is the cw capitalizing on twilight's popularity but it was on for like 50 years and they were like playing 22 year olds but they were like 40 it was wild what was going on on that damn show anyways that's where nina dober comes all that to say I really like that actor. But as far as her arc goes, I really get pissed off when a filmmaker is comfortable showing a woman being abused and then does not make the space for her to have a character arc.

Like if you don't have space for her in the movie, don't show her getting hit. It just feels exploitative a little bit. even if it wasn't intended that way. I feel like it pisses me off. Yes, I agree. In the book, she's about to get an abortion. And at the time when she tells the boyfriend that she's pregnant, he's like, ha, not mine. And then she proceeds to get the abortion, connects with Charlie. She tells the boyfriend, tells him like, know what it was it was a false alarm don't worry about it and he's like okay great and she's like but i'm breaking up with you and then like there's a description of her

reading like self-esteem books but then stopping to read the self-esteem books because she starts dating a guy a year younger than her so i'm not saying the book is perfect by any means um but it seems to give her a little bit more characterization yeah right i mean it sounds like it definitely does more and i know that like when you're adapting like stuff has to get cut down and stuff like that but it's like okay if you didn't have the space for her to be a bigger character then don't show her getting abused if like yeah and it's just it's very telling who this writer director wants to give space to because the most characterized people in this movie are the boys like the boys we don't know an awful lot i think the like mary

elizabeth likes rocky horror picture show which and good for her she's right to film that way but like what else do we know about any of the girls except for like their taste in music i also like how is this mary elizabeth's production of rocky horror but she's still somehow cast in a minor role i was like can we let like why can't may women be the main person like the hollywood is allergic to letting women be the main person like the Hollywood is allergic to letting her be the main person even she's like this is my production and I'm gonna play the maid I'm like why I don't know anyways yeah I wanted to shout out Mary Elizabeth as I don't know I felt in ways I was almost a little bit embarrassed about, I was like, oh, I felt kind of represented by her at times where it's just like a young woman doing the most.

She doesn't know how Ash Wednesday works. Right. This is like this, like just desperately trying to be like this. Maybe this maybe I'm this person or maybe I'm this person. She's like, I'm vegan person. No, I'm Rocky Horror person. No, I'm book person. Like, just like I get like, no I'm rocky horror person no I'm book person like just like I get what like I don't know I was like she's a little frustrating at times and a little up her own ass but I just I I feel like it's you don't see characters like that a lot who are like also loved by their friends and like think you know things end up going well for her and also just like that moment of like oof just like you this movie does

like humiliating moments pretty well in a way that like kind of triggered my inner teen that scene where whoo where he I mean there's a lot going on in that scene where he surprise kisses Sam and humiliates his girlfriend who is a lot but certainly did not deserve that right you know i i wouldn't talk to him for two weeks either yeah well is there anything else anyone wants to talk about yes the character michael the friend who dies by suicide um yes in the in the movie he's only brought up super briefly while charlie is stoned and steven chabosky had said like in books you can do multiple ghosts in a movie you only get one ghost and i wanted and he said i want that one ghost to be aunt helen i don't want two ghosts and then he had said in the book you open with like charlie and a bunch of other

kids grieving michael's suicide before high school starts um and then he says oh i didn't want this to be a suicide movie and not wanting that to be the tone of the movie and i'm just over here like but but it is a suicide movie and that is okay right like you don't have to frame it as a right exactly so you don't have to frame it as like and that and again going back to tanita dobreb's deleted scene it's like what do you what do you mean emotionally intense and and also this this doesn't help that he has an extensive like screenwriting background either where he's trained by a bunch of other white cis dudes and and so probably the mindset of like oh emotions equate bad writing sort of thing which i very much disagree with um

yeah and how this is a topic that shows up in a lot of his work like he i understand uh there are a lot there's a lot of discourse about rent but uh he he adapted that screenplay and he did include the the suicide that was in the original broadway production but then the director is like we're gonna cut it and then you direct and write projects that that also contain content about about suicide it's like that is okay that that's a topic that's close to you like don't frame it in a way that that you're like oh you know i didn't want it to be that movie and it's and it's like no like there are folks who need that content like there's this there's this movie

that hugh jackman is in that's based off of a play called the sun and that got bad reviews because they're all like oh it's all melancholy and whatnot and it's like no this is actually a very real portrayal of how suicidal ideation happens and also like it's able to portray it in a way where it's like no you don't need like typically what a lot of films do is like they give a reason for why someone is having mental health issues and what i like about the sun is how this character explicitly says like i don't need a reason i just don't want to be alive and it's's right and then that movie ends up getting bad reviews because they're like too much emotion

that's I didn't even know that I was like I would I'll watch that movie like it's a sad ending I will say that it's okay be prepared for that watch it with a friend but that's so that's so

wild though that it feels like and i do wonder yeah what kind of like producer pressures there are to be like oh well this is like this is too much for a teenage audience versus like i also this is like what is considered too much and not too much quote unquote like they're such nebulous terms and i feel like are so defined by like the money people versus like what young audiences would actually benefit from. Cause I'm sure that like that, that would be. And, but then also you're just like, well, this is also the man that goes on to adapt dear Evan Hansen. So, you know, how do we,

how do we establish trust and what do we do? It's confusing. And that ended up getting bad reviews and i'm over here like right well he he did i guess he didn't write that one he directed it like he helped he helped with some of the writing he and a few others helped with some of the writing but yeah the original like broadway person who wrote it is the main writer of it got it got it uh i was like wait i don't i don't need to contribute to the dunking on dear evan hans there's there's a whole cottage industry around dunking on that movie um but so many theater people so oh my god it's like they've really angered the wrong people this time uh the last thing i wanted to say was about aunt helen where they didn't go deep into this i wonder if they did in the book uh i'm i wasn't mad about it but

i thought it was interesting that it was mentioned because just based on what i know it did sort of seem to scan where Charlie makes a reference to, it sounds as if Helen may have been abused as well. Yeah, I got that impression. And that he brings that up in, like almost as like a sort of defense of her behavior. It was like, well, she was hurt. And that is, I mean, obviously there's no prescriptive way to talk about this but like

that is something that frequently happens is that abusers have been abused themselves and i was glad they didn't harp on it i didn't feel like there was really a need to but i thought that it was um it just felt pretty authentic that like if charlie knew that that would be something where that would like come up for for him when he was starting to process that in the book they talk about how both Aunt Helen and Charlie's mom were physically abused by their by their father okay but then uh but that Aunt Helen was uh was was sexually abused by a friend of the father. So I did find it interesting that the movie had decided like, oh, Aunt Helen moved in because of bad boyfriends. Because in the book, they're all like,

we don't know why Aunt Helen moved in, but she's here now until she dies. Interesting. Okay. I have a question. There's a moment toward the end where there's a flashback young charlie is holding i think his mom's hand to comfort her after the death of aunt helen i think it's her his mom but i'm not sure no it's all aunt helen's hand oh it is so because like her wrist kind of turns over and you see scars from an apparent suicide attempt on her wrist.

So that was Aunt Helen? Yeah. Okay. I wasn't sure which adult woman that was. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't sure either. And then I also knew that it was already established in like, I mean, very, very different situation. but like when he's hooking up with Mary Elizabeth and he's thinking about Sam that like faces would

sometimes swap when he was like in his so I wasn't I just wasn't sure okay that's good to know and again it's like I I do I wasn't bothered that the movie didn't harp on that but that it was acknowledged um the last thing i want to say is sam's line where she says i'm not a bulimic i'm a bulimist oh god i love bulimia i'm like you're just like steven chabosky what you will pay for your crimes yeah weird ass 90 ass 90s dialogue. He wrote a line and then apparently Emma Watson and Ezra Miller decided to do improv on that line. And that's what ended up being the final take or whatever. Oh, my gosh. It did sound very like, sorry, but like dumbass teenager, like banter. But in a way that it was like, did we need that?

Was that necessary? An adult wrote this. Yeah. An adult wrote this. You. An adult wrote this. But a 45-year-old man wrote this down. So, huh. Interesting. The two adult actors were like, this is fine.

Yeah, the two 22-year-olds are like, let's riff on this. And you're like, please don't. Or not. Or not. Anyways, good job, Percy Jackson. Liked you in the movie. I thought he was good like I I enjoyed Logan Lerman's performance and I enjoyed his performance as Percy Jackson so so they're brave of you to admit absolutely but but this is actually a great question. Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Actually, does it? I don't, I didn't even pay attention. Because it's like, I'm not sure. Because I'm not sure. I felt the same way. If it passes because of like the dialogue between Mary Elizabeth and Alice. But at the same time, it's like, it's only like, it's very quick pieces of dialogue between the two of them. Or does it pass when Charlie's mom and his sister are talking

about like preparing to shop for college move-in stuff? So I'm over here, like, does it pass the bare minimum or does it pass this podcast requirements for passing and like it's i don't know for the first time in a long time i actually really thought about the bechdel test when uh watching this movie because there's actually a pretty uh pretty robust discourse around whether this movie does or does not pass the bechdel test which usually in my mind just says it doesn't. By our standards, it does not. By the original standards of the Bechdel test, it does. But because we say like it should be an impactful line of dialogue and not something throwaway.

There is a throwaway line that I just thought was funny. There's just like passing conversation you hear between Mary Elizabeth and Alice so we know their names and it's when Charlie insults Mary Elizabeth's hair and Alice to Mary Elizabeth it's kind of true and Mary Elizabeth says shut up so I would say maybe that's a no for us and then there's another uh thing where there's like a brief exchange between Mary Elizabeth and Charlie's mom, but we don't know what Charlie's mom's name is. So I would say that's a no. And also that exchange doesn't matter. Mary Elizabeth and Alice also talk about blue jeans, where one of them gives them as a gift

to the other person. Oh, yeah. Ha ha ha. You got me jeans. Because I just counted that as like a group setting scene yeah right i don't know the bottom line is that you would think the girls would talk to each other more but the creative voice behind this story doesn't really have any interest in that yeah i'm gonna say it's a nor yeah that this does not pass our version of the vexel test

yeah that's fine with me but what about that nipple scale of ours a scale where what about a perfect metric that's never been wrong never ever um we rate the movie on a scale of zero was hesitant to explore at this time, and even to some extent now still, but you know, things like suicidal ideation and mental health issues among teenagers, openly queer characters who don't have a completely tragic storyline and who are pretty fully characterized things like that but then on the other hand it's so painfully white and the excuse that like oh but this was an affluent suburb. No, I don't buy it. Also, who is forcing you to set your story there?

Exactly. People across class boundaries have these problems. Exactly. So there being not a single person of color who speaks in the movie is glaring. The approach to the Sam character and her like, quote unquote, torrid past is... So dramatic.

I'm like, leave her alone. Horribly handled. Like, really fumbled the way that's handled and again just the lack of interest of fully characterizing the girls in this story in general and they're not being space made to just give them more interests define them by things besides either their trauma or the boys they're dating things like that um is also pretty glaring so i think i'll stick with two and a half and uh i'll give one nipple to the one black kid you see walking past the screen at school also also two black people that okay there's there's a black doctor who doesn't speak and

there's a black student who doesn't speak and there's a black student who doesn't speak that's wild i think i saw a black student but maybe it's just wishful thinking i'm not sure uh and i'll give i'll nipple to sister candace and and her going to prom stag with her friends oh my god i am justice for candace movie candace at least yes um yeah i'm gonna i'll split down the middle too i think that this is a very sincere movie with its heart mostly in the right place. But I think, and like, honestly, I didn't feel this as strongly entering this conversation. This has been like a really, really clarifying, helpful conversation. Because you're both just so damn smart.

Wow. And beautiful and cool. You're so smart. We're killing it. This Zoom chat is electric. All three of us are so smart. Good for us. We are infinite.

Yes, in this moment, we're infinite and then our heads go. But yeah, I think that it's like, as far as the way this movie treats its protagonist, Charlie, I generally think it's like, as far as the way this movie treats its protagonist, Charlie, I generally think it's a thoughtful movie that like tries to do right by its protagonist. You see, I mean, whitest movie in the world takes place in the upper middle class being generous.

These houses are fucking ginormous. So in some ways, it's very much the status quo of a teen movie but you also see representation that you don't see in most teen movies where but the represents representation you get is limited to white men uh or white boys however you know, within that, I do feel like Patrick, imperfect and being played by Ezra Miller certainly does not help synthesize this character. But I did like that Patrick was not defined by his trauma and he gets a happy ending. And that's I feel like when queerness is portrayed in youth media, that's I mean, even if we Degrassi very often yeah not the case and he has good parents he has good parents it's Brad who has terrible parents he actually has good parents yeah do we meet his parents I in the book you hear how great they are but like yeah okay yeah it's I think it was referenced in the like in very very

much in passing but that his family like is accepting and loving of him which like all families should be but I guess like for the early 90s that is like a good thing to be explicit about and that you know that different queer characters in the movie have different backgrounds and there's not one prescriptive experience and that there's I think pretty solid portrayal of a young male CSA survivor which is again to this day very very rare in media and I mean we talked through that piece but just I think gets a lot right in a way that is horrible like it is such a horrific topic to explore but it's very important and I think that the um especially like that he is able to begin processing it and that it's clear that it's like not just something that it like it's an ongoing process I liked that it showed that like he's going to be going back

to Dr. Joan Cusack for a long time to like continue processing this experience and um again you see a very privileged uh perspective on processing csa but but it's so rare that i was happy that it was there however docking it for not just um the uh the whiteness of this movie and the the class it's sort of set in but also how uh women do not really get the same benefits of grace from the story and time and uh from from the director and writer that the male characters do which just means you're not going to do great on the battle cast sorry so uh you know justice for sam i i do want to read the book now and see because i like sam as a character and it's just like you just don't get quite enough and the redemption arc rhetoric oh it just like made me turn on him even harder when my when you like it confirmed that like and

this is just how he feels um and you're like okay well uh now i'm angry okay uh so i'm gonna go two and a half on this uh you know b for effort good job percy jackson i'm giving all of my nipples to dr joan cusack that's the real twist of the movie you're like dr joan cusack she's in the opening credits but by the time she shows up you forget that she was there and you're like oh right she was here all along bigger jump scare than the decapitation scene in hereditary dr joan cusack so wild especially because kate walsh it's more shondaland talk what's wrong with me um that kate walsh. It's more Shondaland talk. What's wrong with me? That Kate Walsh, aka Charlie's mom, was famously on Grey's Anatomy and then Private Practice. So I'm so used to seeing her be a doctor. But she's not a doctor in this movie. Joan Cusack's a doctor. And that's an exciting

twist for the early 2010s. We're like, wait, that's Mrs. Doctor. And they're like, nope, she's Mrs. Mommy. And we don't know what she does. We have no idea. We're like, wait, that's Mrs. Doctor. And they're like, nope, she's Mrs. Mommy. And we don't know what she does. We have no idea. We don't even know what her name is. She's Mrs. Kelmekis. Well, that's my, that's my rating. Also justice for Candace. Maya, what say you? Yeah. I, okay. I thought about this question beforehand because it's my it's it's a great part of the podcast format thank y'all very much uh i will also give it two and a half and there's there's so much casual ableist language in this movie and and of course it's and i know that it's the 90s and i know that came out in 2012 but also it's like

casual ableism is way too casual but you don't have to say it yeah yeah exactly there's a lot of like homophobic slurs as well but they're always said by characters who we know are like bad people and it's tricky sorry continue i there's a deleted scene where where joan cusack is in the is in the opening because like the original plan was to have the film open in the hospital so that viewers could be like, oh, how did he get there or whatever? Then they decided to scrap it.

My partner and I were watching it and he was like, okay, so it's nice that it opens with the tunnel and then it closes with the tunnel. Wow. I'm back um and again this ain't like i do really appreciate that there's a portrayal of a young person take uh taking medication and it's not framed in a way where it's like oh i stopped taking the meds because like they they don't it doesn't portray who i am or whatever because i see that way too often in movies and it's nice that it's just it doesn't portray who I am or whatever. Because I see that way too often in movies.

And it's nice that it's just an objective thing. He just takes meds and it's fine. And it is interesting listening to the commentary. There's a producer, Russ Smith, who had advocated for making sure that scene remained in the movie. Which I find interesting, especially in the year the like movie was made in 2011 came out in 2012. So I liked that it normalized that for its time. I don't like how junkies X characters like, Oh, don't worry about the money. And it's like, and it's like, no,

because it's Steven Chbosky, like wanting to encourage kids like, Oh no, don't worry about the money. Just go, go to the hospital when you need to. And it's like, no. And also again, when you also again when you think about really work like that for a lot of people right when you think about kids of color and queer kids and trans kids who have terrible experiences in there and like and how often psych wards are tied to the prison industrial complex is like is not a happy ending for everybody and it's and it's not accessible for everybody uh yeah not everyone can afford therapy. It's a very like Puppies and Rainbows approach to like law enforcement and American health care.

Right. Yeah. And all the actors did such a great job, even though they had I know that in the commentary he was like, there are no villains. He kept saying, which I can appreciate, even when it comes to Helen's character, as you were saying, like they portray her humanity without like excusing anything that she did. Right. Which is like so hard to do. But but yeah it felt like one of the things that they really succeeded at yeah i so i give it two and a half nipples one nipple is to be shared between may whitman and emma watson i love may whitman's self-advocacy for herself and and and emma watson overall does does a great performance and it's great that like this is this was her first movie where she gets to be a featured character that was like oh that's like away from the harry potter franchise i thought it was very cool that um at the time for like while prepping for press for this movie steven chabosky chabosky was like i don't know how to

do this and emma watson was like oh i have years of experience let me tell you't know how to do this. And Emma Watson was like, oh, I have years of experience. Let me tell you. She knows how to be in a movie where she has two friends and both of them are boys. That's true. This is Emma Watson canon. And she ends up with one of the boys. Interesting. I've seen this before.

And to be clear, we know that Ezra Miller is non-binary. Yes. But the character of Patrick uses he, him pronouns. Right. this before and to be clear i know we we know that ezra miller is non-binary yes um but the character of patrick you know uses he him pronouns yeah yeah yeah we should have acknowledged that sooner but um anyway so two and a half nipples yeah one nipple shared between may whitman and emma watson um so mary elizabeth and sam one nipple that is shared between nina dobrev and kate walsh uh because there are some deleted scenes with where Kate Walsh and Charlie interact as well that end up getting deleted, which, which personally, I believe what was for the best, but still it's like, okay.

Kate Walsh just deserves better in general. Like private practice got canceled. Bad judge got canceled. She, she played, she played Hannah's mom and 13 reasons why. I know. What? She deserves so much better. Give this woman a role that isn't corny challenge. Not possible. Actually, I haven't seen The Umbrella Academy. People really like it.

And she's in Emily in Paris. She's in every corny show of all time. And Umbrella Academy, it's a good time. There are definitely some cheesy L's, but I had a great time. Oh my god, I've written about that show a lot last year. Anyways, and then the half nipple goes to Paul Rudd for

shooting for two days. Oh yeah. Because he's in this. He's in the same room the whole time and he's like I need to cut my hair. He's like Charles Dickens, great Gatsby. Oh my god, so correct. The last thing I want to say he's like Charles Dickens great god so correct the last thing I want to say to close out the episode is about Pittsburgh my new favorite American city I love Pittsburgh Pittsburgh's the best and I was in Pittsburgh with Sarah Marshall and she and her

friends were showing me this old tourism video forburgh that was so from like the late 80s that was so defensive like it was the most self-conscious promotion of a city i've ever seen but it's just like videos of pittsburgh and you're and like i think it gets a bad rap but it opens with like all this all this voiceover that's like why would i want to go to pittsburgh ew pittsburgh pittsburgh did my car break down and i was like geez and then it like cuts to a sweeping view of pittsburgh and this grand voice is like pittsburgh is actually a great american city and then it says my favorite part says um pittsburgh has the most bridges bridges in any city in America or the world. And then there's a long pause.

And then he goes, except for Venice. And then it just goes to the next part. I just have never seen a more lukewarm endorsement of their own city. Shout out, Pittsburgh. I'd like to give my nipples to Dr. Joan Cusack in Pittsburgh. Okay, beautiful. Yes. Wow. Maya, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me. This was delightful. This was incredible. Y'all are incredible. Come back for Dear Evan Hansen. Oh my god. Or something else. Or anything you want. Or something else. True. That's true yeah i will listen i will do so much with y'all this yeah y'all are fantastic yeah thank you so much um

where can people follow you on social media check out your work plug your book if you'd like yes i would love to uh folks can find me at mayawilliamspoet.com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter, mdub16, e-m-m-d-u-b-b-1-6. I have a poetry collection called Judas and Suicide. It is about responding to religious related trauma and suicidality. There are different poems in the book that respond to different Bible verses where a completed suicide and attempted suicide or suicidal ideation takes place. The book also talks about how often we use carceral language when discussing our mental health or suicidality, talks about healing from sexual violence. And it also involves some poems about how suicide is portrayed in film and TV. I write a lot of essays about mental health and suicide and in of suicidality especially when it comes to the scene where where charlie goes like can you just tell me how to make it stop and that still resonating with me years later because it's like nah it doesn't stop bro mental this mental health shit is non-linear and you gonna learn um and like and also the book does a better job of talking about Charlie's Catholic upbringing as he's trying to navigate sex and mental health. And like Mary Elizabeth's journey with Buddhism is talked a little bit more, even though not as well as Charlie navigating Catholicism because men.

Go figure. So I do wish that the movie had gave more of an opportunity to explore religion more uh that wasn't just mary elizabeth not knowing how ash wednesday works right i wasn't sure if she just thought he had a smudge on his head or if she's just like religious anarchy don't follow mary elizabeth oh. She's doing her best, but she's just like so much. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I did a video podcast series with my friend Mia Stewart-Willis called Dying Laughing, where we where we've talked about the representation of suicidality and like television shows and movies and music.

We have two more episodes coming out and music uh we have we have two more episodes coming out and then we're then we're closing it um but yeah that's a project i'm very proud of awesome yes check all of that out and you can follow us on twitter and instagram at bechtel cast you can subscribe to our patreon aka matreon where we cover two movies a month or we do two episodes a month because earlier this month we explained the wga strike and we also have an episode on newsies coming out because it's jion. Get it in your head. Get it through your head. It's really brilliant wordplay. It might not make sense at first.

No, it's great. But that can be found at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. $5 a month. Those two bonus episodes every month plus access to the entire back catalog. It's true. You can also go to tpublic.com slash me, Bechdelcast

for all your merchandising needs. And with that, my friends, let's get into the truck and to Pittsburgh Hereditary. To infinity and beyond. That's definitely what

Percy Jackson said in the movie. Bye. Okay, bye. that's definitely what Percy Jackson said in the movie bye okay bye bye hey everybody this is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang we've got some exciting news for you you know we're always bringing you the best guests right well this week we're taking it to the next level

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