The Bechdel Cast - The Phantom of the Opera with Lindsay Ellis

Episode Date: November 30, 2017

Jamie and Caitlin emerge from their candlelit swamp apartment to teach singing lessons, wiggle a chandelier, and discuss The Phantom of the Opera (2004) with special guest Lindsay Ellis!(This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @thelindsayellis on Twitter! While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @hamburgerphone  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hello, welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name's Jamie. My name's Caitlin. You're doing your sexy radio voice. I'm a ghost that hides in the walls and tries to raise you. I'm a sex ghost with a face mask. And I'm a hot young ingenue who's good at singing. Ingenue code for prey. Yeah.

Oh, I'm so excited. So, okay, this is the Bechdel cast where we talk about the portrayal of women in movie inspired by the Bechdel test, which requires that two women in a movie have names, they talk to each other and their conversation has to be something about something other than a man. Grow up, never happens. Never, never once in the history of cinema. This is an episode I feel like we've been talking about doing for at least six months yeah well because once every two to three episodes you find a way to mention it because i love to shoehorn in shoehorn schumacher schumacher

mention this is our second episode of a joel schumacher movie yes um i think only the second we did flatliners and that No, and we did Batman. No, that was a Tim Burton Batman. Okay. Well, lots of Schumacher undertones in this podcast. I love a mediocre man. That's why I will always be like, you know what? If it's a Joel Schumacher joint, sure, he deserves another chance.

Absolutely he doesn't, but he's like 5 million years old. He's going to be making movies until he dies, and we just have to get used to it i love how mediocre joel schumacher is he is just emblematic of just infinite chances for kind of no reason i agree that he's mediocre and i hate him for that reason so we have i oh man i i on that right i mean I generally mediocre men are not okay. For some reason, Joel Schumacher, he just he at least tries to take creative risks that just have historically never once worked. But he keeps doing it and he keeps getting opportunities to do it. And it's just like so many female directors with talent are going to, you know, die in obscurity. But Joel Schumacher is going to make five million movies and they're all going to be fine. Except this one is actually really spectacularly bad. Oh, I thought you were going to end it spectacular and I was going to be upset.

That's it. I've seen this movie at least 20 times. Oh, God. Well, we'll get into it. It's the Phantom of the Opera episode. The Joel Schumacher film, uh christmas movie season was maybe like my favorite christmas movie season growing up because phantom of the opera came out horny for that right a series of unfortunate events starring jim carrey was the first movie i ever saw that made me viscerally angry and i really hated and so that was fun. Also National Treasure, which I loved. A hot season.

A real hot season. Well, who can argue with that? Hey, let's introduce our guest. Yeah. She is a writer. She's a video essayist. She has this whole series of wonderful video essays. Including an amazing one on this movie. We're big fans.

Wow, we were so almost synced up there. We did it. It's early, but it's 10 a.m. It's happening. What are we doing? I got those little things from 7-Eleven. They put them next to the creamers, but it's actually like caffeine shots.

I've got a couple if anyone needs them. Me. And that voice you're hearing is our guest who we started intro and then forgot to do it the rest of the way. Lindsay Ellis. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.

You happen to be doing a podcast on my favorite crack. So I'm so here for this. Oh, we're so excited to have you. So Phantom of the Opera, you have a history with this franchise. I feel like I've done three 30-plus minute videos. We've seen them all. Don't worry, we've watched them. I don't front with my Phantom, but it's probably my oldest fandom.

There's something about Phantom, most things you kind of outgrow, but Phantom, the stank never leaves you, so you just kind of got to own it. So when did you see this 2004 Joel Schumacher Phantom? Well, I first, when I was like, you know, a sad 15, 16 year old, I mean, I actually wasn't that sad. Like Phantom drew me out of an even sadder phase of my life, which is when I was like into new metal and Limp Bizkit and really angry and sad all the time. And then I discovered musical theater. So there's a logical progression for you. And I was like like really obsessively into it and that's actually how i met like uh several of my like current business partners nice was through

phantom of the opera fandom in 2001 like my current co-writer angelina i met on fanfiction.net same with elisa hansen who now does vampire reviews on youtube and antonella and sarah who used to do a nostalgiaalgia Chick with me, not so much anymore because we live in different cities. But by the time the movie came out, I wouldn't say I was over it, but it was like, it was sort of like our joke old thing. We were excited at first, but then we saw that Schumacher was attached to it.

And then like Antonio Banderas, who wanted it so badly. And they were already making this terrible creative decision in the form of Emmy Rossum and Gerard Butler and we were just like oh wow this is going to be like just as bad as we think it will be and I just remember what was really funny was like seeing it did you see in theaters yeah I saw it in theaters with my mother in Asheville North Carolina we were both like wow how did they mess that up so bad? You know, the show that's like, it's cheesy, but it works. How did this happen? Jamie, what's your history?

Oh, man. I also got into fandom, I mean, freakishly young, because my mom is obsessed with Phantom of the Opera. My mom also, as you know, completely unhinged. That's a theme with Phantom fans. We're being real. Exactly. We relate to that Phantom a little too much.

And there's too much of me that I see in that. But I have a very specific memory of when I was really young. I mean, probably five years old. And this directly connects to two of your videos. So I got those Hunchback of Notre Dame puppets that they sold at Burger King yes so I got all of those

because my mom ran a daycare out of our house and so there would be some time every day where I'd be like I want to be like by myself because I live here so my mom would let me have

time alone in a room and she would give me the three puppets Esmeralda, Quasimodo, and Phoebus and she would turn on the original London cast of the Phantom of the Opera and I would pretend they were Quasimodo, and Phoebus, and she would turn on the original London cast of The Phantom of the Opera, and I would pretend they were Christine, the Phantom, and Raoul.

And that was when I was like five. So I was into Phantom super early. Some of my earliest memories are listening to The Phantom of the Opera and playing with puppets by myself. So very into it. And then Goth Teen Jamie, my middle school choir was going to a production of phantom of the opera at the boston opera house i remember i like had all these fishnets and like very like phantom of the opera super fan clothes on underneath normal clothes and then i got to school and i was like i'm the biggest fan of phantom of the opera and i had like a skirt from trip with like chains on it and like fishnets and then I love this movie.

I'm like very into it. I've seen Phantom of the Opera on stage probably five times. I think I've actually got you beat. Yeah? I've probably seen it at least 15 times. It doesn't get old though.

I lived in New York. It was just sort of like, yeah, I got the rush tickets. Here's 25 bucks, you know. Although, like, I'm so happy they're finally replacing bad Phantom. James Barber. Yay, finally.

You should never have hired him. He was not good. Worse than Gerard Butler? No. No, not possible. For a Broadway Phantom, it was just like, you know, on top of being like a pedophile,

he's just not a good phantom. Yeah. And I mean that in the literal sense. He actually went to trial for it. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, man. I didn't know that.

Speaking of mediocre men getting second chances. Yeah, he was accused and went to trial for, I think, one. But then there were two more accusers. All were under the age of 15. Jesus Christ. And so eventually he had a plea deal. And so he was never actually served any time. But then he was like, after his probation was up in 2012 or 8.

I don't know. It was somewhere in the Obama years. Broadway was like, welcome back, brother. And he's been doing pretty well. Oh, God. Why? Why do we let criminals do things? Well, I mean,

that is kind of a smooth transition right into, there's a lot of preying on a minor in this movie. Oh, yeah. That's true. A lot of it. So I had never seen the movie

until a couple days ago. I thought I had, but turns out I hadn't, and I didn't know what the story was. This is my first introduction. So you hadn't seen the show? Hadn't seen story i've never this is my first introduction the show hadn't seen the show not familiar i'd never read the book not but you don't like musicals generally i don't like musicals but yeah i just i have this was my first experience with phantom of the opera

and boy did this movie sour my experience no no it's good you've got a lot of pain okay just just to illustrate a point of how much people love this. Okay, so it has 32% on Rotten Tomatoes. Critically, no one liked it. Everyone said, get the electric guitar riff out of there. Right. Audience score, 84%. People love Phantom of the Opera, and they won't hear now.

People will. I guess because when I did the video about it, I tended to focus mostly on the technical filmmaking. For that reason, I think I didn't get a lot of pushback from fans. But I definitely remember in 2005, I was in college at the time, and that was when Phantom of the Opera fandom got a shot in the arm from this new movie. And there was this new wave of people who just loved the movie. And then there was the old guard that was just like gatekeeping. So there was like a war.

I remember it well. But yeah, those people, they live. They do. Should I do the recap? Yeah. Okay. Phantom of the Opera is about a young woman named Christine. She is a chorus girl in this opera house.

Also in the opera house is a spooky phantom man. Is he a ghost? Is he real? We don't know. But everyone's scared of him. And everyone's like, ah! That's literally what everyone's like. Yeah, there's a literal ah in the first five minutes of the movie.

Oh, there's a really obnoxious setup to this movie. Oh, there's a really, yeah, there's a really obnoxious setup to this movie. Oh, the framing device. It's so long. And they keep going back to it. Patrick Wilson's age makeup is... That's Patrick Wilson in old makeup? I'm pretty sure, yeah.

That's age makeup. Oh, God, why? Yeah, it's not that bad, but... I mean, the makeup's not bad. The makeup's not bad. I mean, I was realistic. I thought that was just an old man. But why wouldn't they have just cast an old man?

Anyway. I do love that Patrick Wilson puts on old man voice. He sounds really like, A collector's season. It's like, okay, we get it, you're old. I mostly fast forwarded through those parts. But those are the worst parts. You missed nothing.

They're so extraneous. They don't need to be there. They add nothing. No, they sure don't. They do add product placement. Or it's like, there's Swarovski. Oh, okay.

I think there was another one. It was like another brand that existed in the 18... Okay, so the show takes place in the 1870s, which doesn't make sense because that was during the Franco-Prussian War

and the opera was under siege and not an opera. But the show is like 1871. It's like, okay, so the movie, I think they bump it back to like 1888 or a time that made sense when the novel took place. So I guess that's one thing the movie fixed. Thank you. Not much else. Weird that Andrew Lloyd Webber was like, let's let's kick it back another 15 years for whatever reason well i guess maybe it was like the dresses were cooler in the 1870s

than in the 1880s it's true it's true though i didn't like those bustles but also this movie does not abide by any manner of like i mean there's some that's more realistic but there's sometimes there's like the time that where Christine is wearing like a slip with like a slit. Oh, yeah. You're just like, oh, totally. My corset on the outside of my nightgown. I'm just like, oh, let's just. And also I'm a singer, but I'm in the ballet.

Right. But you're not going to see me do much of either. Like, yeah. She. Okay. Okay. Sorry. There's a spooky ghost.

Carlotta. She's like the prima donna, diva, like the star of all the operas. The only person who knows what movie she's in. Oh, Minnie Driver is great. Minnie Driver kills it. She's great. Different things happen where she's like, I'm not going to sing. Or she's, you know, refusing to perform.

So they're like, how about this Christine girl? She can sing. But they're like, how can christine girl she can sing but they're like how how can she sing can she sing i mean that's about what i sounded like when i was 17 so okay i'm ready to be the prima donna of the premiere french opera oh is that how old she is in the in the movie she had when she's aged down in the movie and i think that emmy Emmy Rossum was 16 when this was being filmed she was underage yikes because she kisses two old men

in this movie she kisses two men far older than her yeah so she's like yeah I can sing because it turns out she's been taking

singing lessons from a a wall a wall an angel of music who she thinks is her dead father's spirit teaching her how to sing this just like drenched in electro complex yes yes she thinks the ghost is her daddy no she thinks that the ghost is an angel sent by her dad because so it's basically as bad but like because as he's as

he lay dying she's like i'm gonna send you an angel honey don't worry so like the phantom somehow or other finds out about this and he's like oh right how does he know about that and know about maybe he was no i don't know maybe he was watching her dad die maybe he was in the walls maybe he died in her dressing room. He tends to do that. Her dressing room that she has by herself alone. As chorus girl. Which is, yeah, I mean, when, okay,

that was another part where I was like, okay, is she supposed to be in Carlotta's dressing room? But it looks like it's all her stuff. And the Phantom wouldn't have rigged Carlotta's dressing room so it looks like it's all her stuff and the Phantom wouldn't have rigged Carlotta's dressing room so that he could just appear wherever.

In like a two-way mirror that like slides open and has a... Okay, but that like rules. To be fair, that rules and it's a very

exciting stage moment and it's... I'm just like, in the book it was her dressing room. It was, yeah. Why is she such a big dressing room?

She's a star. She's a teen orphan. They don't get nice dressing rooms. I love those in France. Come see Teen Orphan. She can't sing, but she is a teen and an orphan. Good enough? Okay, we'll put her corset on the outside of her clothes.

Anyway, we're about 15 minutes in. We have not got much further. So she thinks this angel of music is singing to her and teaching her how to sing. Turns out this phantom who is real approaches her and she's like, oh, wait, you're a man, but you're still my angel of music. And they have a whole song about it. She has no reaction to learning that he's a man her eye shadow does get darker though oh yeah sorry it gets very very very smoky it does get yeah by the time she's in the gutter she is in full smoke yeah like i said the further down she goes the

smokier it gets and it looks so like it looks like when I was 13 and trying on mom's makeup for the first time. It was like, darker! Yeah. There's a lot of long shots of Emmy Rossum just like looking like

she's basically falling asleep. Like mouth kind of a gog. Yeah. And it's like, oh, that's what love is. Just entranced by your angelic voice,

Gerard Butler. So I didn't realize that like this movie does a very bad job i think of setting up that he's supposed to be this like seductive and she's like oh i like that i love you like i did not realize that they were having like a love story like it didn't it's almost like jill shumacher's really not good at things right it's almost yeah like they just like on top of that gerard butler's doing an exceptionally bad job of being seductive and amy rossum is like 16 and has never gone outside so she doesn't know how to look like seduced i guess which is already gross why did they cast a 16 year old ah and hathaway really wanted the part too really and hathaway can sing, and was the correct age in 2005. I think she would have done well.

Anne Hathaway and Antonio Banderas. That would have been tight. Poor Emma Roth. And this didn't really launch anyone's career in the way that I think the movie intended to. Patrick Wilson's... Patrick Wilson's didn't get hurt. Right. He wasn't actively harmed by it. I would think perhaps that Emmy Rossum was maybe damaged by this movie. I think so, too. She was like maybe on the rise and then

kind of stalled. She was in The Day After Tomorrow and then kind of went away until Beautiful Creatures, which, yes, I saw. Yeah? I didn't see it. Yeah, she was like the oh sexy older sister and she does that look does not work on her well and then now she's like relegated to tv and seems to be doing well but it's i feel for her this way because imagine like having the rest of your life affected by a mistake that didn't seem like a mistake when you were 16. Sure. Basically it's her teen pregnancy. So where were... So he's like seducing her and she's

kind of into it, question mark? I don't really know. But he shows her this like wax sculpture he made of her in a wedding dress. And she also has no reaction to that. She's just like, oh, she passes out.

Because women be fainting. I mean, that is scary. She's so creeped out. But then after that, when she wakes up, to me, she does not have an appropriate reaction to a creepy man whose face is half hot and half under a mask making

a sculpture of her. And then she's just like, yeah, okay, you're my friend now or something. Well, not to jump to anyone's defense, but she does think that he is like an angel. Yeah, I think the moment she rips off the mask is when she's like, oh, you're ugly. I guess you're not an angel.

Angels can only be hot. I mean, it's just kind of confusing because when you, both in the show and in the movie from that point on you don't see her again until the opera right and and then she runs to the roof like i'm really scared raul and he's like don't worry honey it's not it's not real so i guess like at that point where she kind of turns on him but it's all really implicit and there's like it yeah this story is so clunky the more you look at it bad but she okay so she meets him she's like he's an angel he made a wax statue of me that we have to assume he has sex with there's no way there's not a cavernous hole in that wax statue. So anyways, she wakes up and she's like, well, that happened.

But then he does start to behave more and more threatening after that. Not that her reaction at any point in this story totally makes sense. But if I'm remembering correctly, she gets out and that's when he starts being like, you have to recast the show. And then he like causes the fucking chandelier thing and he causes it to wiggle yeah yeah it doesn't fall yet that's a funny thing about the chandelier freaking people out it has like has no consequence it just kind of happens as far as we know no one's hurt well he does so oh right i'm thinking

i'm sorry i'm thinking of the show the show, it falls at the end of Act 1. Whenever he goes, like, you will curse the day you did not do all the phantom masks of you, and then he cuts the chandelier as a threat. And then in the movie, he just cuts it because he feels like it. He's like, oh, I forgot to do this.

We have to justify the framing device. Right, yeah, exactly. But before that, he kills a guy yeah from the rafters and then everyone's like oh this is a ghost to be reckoned with by the time people are dying i'm like okay it makes sense for her to be scared now yeah but then she still sort of is and then sort of isn't throughout the rest of the movie to the point where at the end i mean this is kind of the genius of the lloyd weber version because this was the first version where they really play up the oh she's kind of into it

and i think that's also why i know that's why this is the most successful version because like in the book he's just kind of like a creepy guy and she's never into it like she pities him like in the frodo pitying golem kind of way but, the second she sees him and she's like, oh. And then he's like, sorry. Because he for real looks like shit. Yeah. Well, he's wearing the mask, but he's just like, hey, I'm not an angel. I'm a 50-year-old man who's in love with you.

Come to my basement. And she's like, he's going to kill and eat me. I have to just placate him and do whatever he says. And so she does this for like two weeks where she's like, no, you're great. You're awesome. I think you're really nice looking.

The things that women have to do for men to not get murdered. So then he lets her, like after two weeks, she convinces him and he's like, okay, fine, I'll let you go back

into the opera. And then she tells Raul everything like, oh my God, there's this creepy guy and he's going to kill me. And then he overhears it. And that's when he snaps and loses it. That makes more sense. Yeah. That does not happen in this movie. No, it does not.

In this movie, she's kind of into it. Toxic romance baby. Yeah, there's like moments where he's like wrapping his arms around her and she's all like, oh, I'm in a shampoo commercial. There is a part, and this was my favorite part i remember when i was seeing the movie when i was 12 i was like during point of no return which is an insane number in the movie just looks like that song though i like most of the songs but you should see like like i say like watch the royal albert hall version be like wow this is even better when people can sing. There aren't random tango dancers there.

I love the tango. But there's a point in this version of it where Emmy Rossum looks like she's straight up going to pass out again because she's so turned on. She's about to handle it. Where they're like, you know, the peak of that song, it looks like her eyes are, like, fluttering.

It's like, she's sick. Someone give her water. Also her, like, straps of her dress keep falling off her shoulders, and she's like, I'm getting more and more naked as I get so horny with this song. And then he, I skipped half of the movie, but who cares? It doesn't make any sense, and it's fucking terrible.

The story, nothing makes any who cares? It doesn't make any sense and it's fucking terrible. The story... Nothing makes any sense. It really doesn't. It's amazing how that doesn't bother you when it's on stage. I think there's just a lot more suspension of disbelief inherent in the medium of theater. Totally. So I think it's just like the bizarre plot holes just kind of wash over you in the stage version where in the movie version and they're just spectacularly glaring because everything is literal. There's no sort of, you know, magical realism going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it really emphasizes how much this story makes no fucking sense. And it's just, I mean, it's adapted really not well at all. Like there's just there's things that could have been done in this adaptation that would have made it transition a little smoother, but it just didn't. And then there was like weird moments

where people are speaking dialogue that should be sung, but they're speaking rhyming dialogue. We're just like, why aren't you? There's like, you're my bride. We don't need to hide.

That part of Masquerade drives me crazy where Patrick Wilson and Emmy Ross are just talking to each other in verse. But the music is still going. Right. Stop it. I was like, why can't you just... Patrick Wilson can actually sing. Yeah. He was on Broadway. He's a mini driver, ironically, the only person who was dubbed. Right, yeah.

Oh, really? Yeah. All right, so the basic story is that there's a guy who's a creep and he is gaslighting Christine and she also is like in love with and being gaslit by Raul. Everyone the end, he is murdering people and making these insane demands. And then he drops a chandelier on everyone, but no one is hurt and it's fine. So there are no stakes or consequences. But the opera is burned down. I guess it's like, they're like, well, this needs a consequence. I guess it burns the opera down and now there's no opera.

And then he takes christine into his like basement level apartment and uh i had an apartment like that and then raul goes to save her of course and the phantom's like you either have to be with me to save raul's life or i'll kill you both or who knows what his dreams are and it's so fun like I love the way that scene is shot like he just sneaks up behind Raul or like just walks up to him with a noose he's like here buddy hold still he just like loops it over his head and then like fastens him to a grate but it's just like okay so it's aose, which is a thing you hang people with. But he's like tied to a grate. So is he just going to strangle him with the noose manually?

He can't be hung. He's tied to a grate. Your video essay was the first time that was ever. I was like, oh, yeah, there's no. He's probably fine. There's no trap here. Maybe he's about to pull out a gun and shoot him. But the rope makes no sense. But he he's pulling yanking at the rope like that will eventually be

i don't know why they did it like because like in the show it's like a magical realism thing like yeah throws the rope on him and then the rope magically kind of lifts so he's actually being like you know yeah that's so much a phantom of like let's just throw something into fog people i hate how this movie doesn't commit to the magical realism it's just like you either do it or don't like I talked about like in the show because they had like the Jean Cocteau arms in the movie which is like this sort of like oh I'm being seduced and

being brought into this magical mysterious world and they're like lifting this thing from Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast which are the these arms stick jutting out of the wall and holding candles and then they never do anything like that for the rest of the movie. Right. It's just straight, literal this.

It's like, commit to stuff like that. Commit to some stylism so the glaring plot holes don't, you know. Which is at least, I mean, that's like the least you could ask of Joel Schumacher. It's like, commit to your bad choices. Yeah. But he doesn't do that in this one. This movie could have been at least consistently fun and bizarre. Yeah.

But it's just... No, it has to be serious. Very disjointed. The addition of that weird sword fighting scene. Well, the sword fight leads to one of the talking points I had about the treatment of women in the movie, which is that, so in that sword fight, and we see this

in a ton of movies, where two men are fighting over a woman. The men are fighting. The woman is being fought for. So it's like women are often rendered just so passive in situations like the same thing with like a woman having to be saved. Like she has to wait around to be saved by a man. This isn't a huge component of this movie, but I think it was worth mentioning that there was just like. Well, it's one of two major scenes where Christine is completely sidelined

as two men fight slash sing slash argue about her because it's that sword fighting scene where she's just totally like literally watching like I can think of that like that Quinn from Daria being like don't fight over me

That was a great quote And then in the climactic scene too too, where Gerard Butler's like, I'm going to make your boyfriend hurt. And he's like, it's okay. And Christine's just standing there like, oh, what do I do? Well, she has a little more agency in that scene because she then kisses the Phantom. I would argue that is such a crazy. Like, I get, I don't know. She's sidelined for the majority of that scene. And then it's like yeah how do i get out of here maybe if i give him a

little kissy he'll let us go which you couldn't bank on working but it does it works for the show it does it works a lot better in the movie it's just like i just feel like rolls like tied to that gray in christ pose just looking on with confusion. Like, what is this supposed to accomplish? Why is anyone here? Well, the kiss that she gives to the phantom to, like, placate him ignores the fact that, like, she's just doing this out of desperation. Because she's like, my life's in danger. Raul's life's in danger.

I've been gaslit by every fucking person in this entire movie throughout the whole fucking story. I gotta kiss this guy to like make him not murder people. But the movie frames it as this like big romantic love. The music swells.

The camera spins over the player and it's just like this is not romantic. Like what are you doing movie? There's a cinema talk. John Mathisen is swirling around

this swamp filming an underage woman kissing gerard butler just bleak in every respect but like yeah the point i want to make about so often in movies this one included we see a woman taking a very passive role in whatever's happening just sitting idly by watching as two men fight or a man has to save her or whatever and it just sends a message that women can't do things i guess and then we as a society are like oh women can't do things because i've never seen them do things in in media so i don't trust them to be able to do anything i think more than anything it's just like christine's character is like oh you just have to take a lot

of shit like she takes shit for this entire okay so if we're talking about i don't know i relate to christine in this regard uh but like so her as a character she's set up as she misses her father her father was the main figure in her life and then we're presented with two father-like figures who are fuckboys that she has to choose between where it's like does she choose the dangerous ghost father committing murders? Or is she going to choose the useless guy who like walked right into a trap? And but also is like pretty consistently like you're making this up. It's fine.

Just stay with me. And is visibly older than her as well. So it's like they're supposed to be the same age. So let's. Oh, right. Because they were childhood sweethearts. Are they supposed to? Because they are the same age.

Unless like he was 17 and she was seven, which honestly in like 19th century France, that was probably a thing. No, I mean, he's he's in the show. At least he's supposed to be a year or two older than she is. But he has so many like successes. But he's only supposed to be 18. Well, I least, he's supposed to be a year or two older than she is. But he has so many successes, but he's only supposed to be 18? Well, I mean, Christine's 19 in the show, so he's supposed to be like 21. Okay. Again, I don't know why they aged Christine down. That does nothing for this movie.

No, it just makes it creepier. Yeah. Well, he's rich, but I'm guessing he's an heir. He's a Navy officer, which is why he like at the masquerade he has his like naval uniform on yeah so he's like a he's a vicon so he like viconted his way to the top of the navy hierarchy so he's like a sailor hot so christine's like a girl with daddy issues who's presented with two daddies and she has to pick one of them there has two daddies i mean i would actually one of them. Christine has two daddies.

I mean, I would actually argue that I don't see Raul as a father figure. Really? I think that in this movie he's pretty consistently, I mean, at very least, I mean, he's patronizing. Yeah.

But I don't think she sees her father in him. Okay. In this or any of the versions. Or at least that's kind of how I took it and that's why I guess in some ways he's less appealing to her because she kind of wants her dad back.

And so she has made this association in her mind with the Phantom and her father. But there is a level of security that comes with being super rich. Yeah. He got her scarf back. I mean, that's nice. He did something. Speaking of that

love triangle, I couldn't help but notice that no time is spent developing the romance between Christine and Raul. They're like, oh, we knew each other as kids and now we're adults and we haven't seen each other for years. Guess what? We're in love. They have that big swell of a

romance number, which takes place right after the murder oh on the roof i love i love that scene because it's like bouquet gets murdered he gets hung she runs up to the roof and she's like oh god oh god oh god i'm freaked out i know who did it he's gonna kill me oh god and ralph's like don't worry honey it's fine and then like the clarinets of romance start playing and they have that big all I ask of you number they just forgot about the killing someone was just murdered

that works in the musical it works on stage it just doesn't work here well especially because he's just like creeping around like the phantom is just like the whole scene hiding behind statues and it's just like we don't need to like this was another like point that i made in the video was like we don't

need to know he's here right why do you keep cutting to him what is the emotion you're going for is it tension are we supposed to feel bad for him either way it doesn't work because this is supposed to be like their big romance and obviously that you know doesn't stick because like you you're like when do they connect? Well, it's there. But you don't realize it. Because the Phantom's creeping around, pouting at the camera. And then in the musical, that's not what it is at all.

You don't see him just leering, tiptoeing around the stage. Like, who cares? It's there in the Lon Chaney movie. I always think of the Lon Chaney movie. Really? Because that's a reflection of the stage. Like, who cares? It's there in the Lon Chaney movie. I always think of the Lon Chaney movie. Really? Because that's a reflection of the book. And it's kind of funny in the book because there's this one line

where she's like telling Raul about how ugly he is and then you hear this wail like in the distance. I'm like, ah! I look like shit! I'm ugly! She lied to me and said I was okay.

Because I kidnapped her. Just because I kidnapped her and told her she could never leave. Damn it. So to the romance between Raul and Christine, this happens a lot in movies where no time is spent developing why these characters would like each other or love each other, which I think is a symptom of female characters just not being well developed enough where they would just have a personality when we would understand why the male lead. But they're like, oh, well, you know, there's a man in the movie and he's got to have a hot lady to be with. So here's this lady character, but we're not going to do anything else to develop her. And that I think is so true for this movie. What is Christine's character?

She has no fucking personality. She's basically just a singing voice, and then she's barely that. Well, we don't see her make a lot. Like, most of things happen to her. Exactly, yeah. Decisions are made for her. Right. And this is, you know, I think, in this version more than any of the others,

which is kind of surprising because it's like it being the most recent one that got big enough to where there were no other versions besides the Dario Argento version from 1998,

which I do not recommend. Haven't seen it. Don't see it. There's, I mean, I think you can count on one hand kind of the choices we see her actually actively

making and we don't know that she necessarily has aspirations to be like carla we know she takes music lessons and that music is important to her we don't know that but she's just forced out into this role there's no yeah there's no specific goal that she has that we know about that we know she could we don't know yeah but like that's the thing that we should probably know for any protagonist what their desire is what their goal is but just kidding we don't have any idea in this movie i think the first choice that she actively makes in the movie is to kiss him at the end yeah yeah because everything else is she chooses to go she sneaks out to go to her dad's grave that's one choice we see her yes but that's funny because like she's like they're like christine you have to be in this show the She sneaks out to go to her dad's grave. That's one choice we see her make.

Well, it's funny because they're like, Christine, you have to be in this show the Phantom is forcing us to put on. We had to be in his fan fiction opera. Which is literally, he's like, I really love Don Giovanni, but it's not serious enough. I'm going to make a serious Don Giovanni. It's called Don Juan Triumphant, and it's going to be about how I'm really sexy and hot and all the ladies want me.

And Don Juan doesn't go to hell in this version. That's literally what it is. It's his fanfic. So they're like, Christine, you have to star in the Phantom's fanfic. And she's like, no.

There's a scene where they're like in the chapel. And she's like, she says like, I'm scared. Don't make me do this. And he's like, you need to do it. He's only killed the one guy. And then he's like, I'm scared. Don't make me do this. And he's like, you need to do it.

He's only killed the one guy. And then he's like, I'll be there. He's like, who cares? But I think that the choices we see her make, she goes to her dad's grave only to be sidelined pretty much immediately. But at that point, she's still confused, apparently, about who the angel of music is, because that song happens again. Surely she knows by now it's a real thing.

They're going, again, for the magical realism thing that they don't commit to, where he's got some sort of hypnotic power over her. It doesn't make any sense. When she looks asleep, it's supposed to be. Whenever she does the lazy face thing. It's confusing. Yeah. If I didn't know. The Sarah Brightman thing. It's confusing. Yeah. If I didn't know. The Sarah Brightman face.

It is Sarah Brightman face. Yeah, just like the look kind of asleep, but kind of turned on. Yeah, so she is not really an active protagonist at all. I'm having to suppress my Christine stan stan because I'm like this is absolutely true in the movie and in the show but I'm just like but that's not how it was in the book. It wasn't originally like this Andrew Lloyd Weber changed it to make it a more

romance novel heroine I guess. I don't know. I mean that totally makes sense to make this romance work if you give Christine a more active role it would probably fall apart pretty quickly because the male protagonists are so flawed. If you establish

a desire for her where she will stop at nothing to become the lead of the opera, like the new prima donna or whatever, that's her driving thing. And then this phantom man comes along who's promising to help her with that it would make sense why she would maybe be seduced by him and his promises and all that stuff and

then go along with it but because we have no idea what her specific goal is it's insane that she's just like oh i'm enchanted and hypnotized by his genius or what like it doesn't make any sense to me in the show and certainly in the movie i feel like the closest we can get to boiling down a motivation has to do with her dad or somehow recapturing... Ugh, boring. Well, it's just bad writing. But her motivation seems pretty closely tied to her dad, which is just lazy.

In both the book and the show show she's just kind of coasting like she was studying music dad died well i guess i'll keep studying music you know he paid for it right but it's like it never it's like does she want to be here do we know and then that brings me to madame giri who i just thought about this like the most recent time i watched it of like madame jerry is basically i mean she's in charge of the ballet she's like the lead choreographer of the ballet and she's the mother to one of the only other female characters who speaks meg jerry who is christine's best friend madame jerry's basically subbing in as christine's parent But it's so clear. Like, there's a few times in the movie where we see Madame Giry actively

make sure that Meg stays away from the Phantom. Madame Giry, we learn, knows everything about him, knows about his, like, torture. Like, kind of grew up with him. Yeah. Right. Which is an addition.

That's a new addition to the movie, and I don't like it. Because, you know, it's like, why does he have a friend? It's not, like, it doesn't, it really kind of takes's like why does he have a friend? It's not like it doesn't really kind of take some of the like impetus for him to like be so desperate and you know obsessed with Christine

if he just has like this you know emotional support all these years in the form of Madame Giry who's been kind of helping him out. And it reflects poorly on her character too because it's like oh she knows everything and is still letting this child communicate openly with this very dangerous person while keeping her daughter. And we know she knows he's dangerous

because she's keeping her biological daughter away from him at all costs. But then she's like, oh, well, I don't know. What are you going to do? You know what? I'm not going to get in the way. He had a bad childhood. Well, just...

It's just sad. That begs the question. That was... Let him have his fun. That frustrated me this time. I'm like, man, Madame Giry, you suck. Yeah. Well, totally.

And that also begs the question if, I mean, it's established with this flashback that she rescues him, has him live in his, you know, dungeon apartment or whatever, and then... So what's dungeon studio? Wouldn't it make more sense that he was obsessed with Madame Giry and like she was the object of his affection because she showed him. He likes to chase, man. She's too emotionally available. And also, you know, women over 40. Phantom's not there for women over 40.

Maybe he was there for her for a little while and then he was like, you got too old. I need a 16 year old yeah well also just like miranda richardson and gerard butler so if they're supposed to be the same age then the phantom is yeah i mean he would be like well into his 40s right how old is he in the book like he's he's in the book he's about 50 okay uh madame jury though there this was the first time that i was like oh they're the way that she's portrayed in this movie does not bode well for that character because it's like oh she's a poor guardian she's very complicit in the fact that murders are taking

place yeah and then the whole keep the hand at the level of i was like i what does that mean i mean keep your hand at the level of your eye so you're supposed to do this you're supposed to literally keep your hand next to your head because the punja blaseau his like weapon of choice is like he'll try to noose you but if your hand is up you can't noose you and you got it you can push because yeah schumacher the punja blaseau is like it's like i think it's supposed to be more like a whip in the book but they just make it a literal noose in the show which is like like, I'm going to noose you, buddy. Like, that's not a very good, you know, offensive weapon. No, it's like, get a knife.

Okay, in the Phantom's apartment. Yeah. Next to his action figures. Swamp apartment. Right, his action figures and his wax statue. Also an addition. A bizarre addition. That's unique to this version.

He plays with dolls. He plays with dolls. He plays with dolls. He lives in basically the sewer. Because there's water. Yeah. What's the bathroom situation? No, it's a lake. Oh, the bathroom situation?

What's the bathroom situation in Phantom's House? It's all around. Just go outside and pee in the lake. Literally, I'm just like, don't wear. Just pop squat. Well, there's a part where they're standing in water. Is there a phantom? No.

Okay, well, see, the thing is the opera has a like a drainage like that's what that is okay so because that's not you know it's it's a very you know it's a very large building and so like the foundation requires there to be like a drainage lake so he builds a house next to this lake in the book it actually has like running water and electricity because he's just that smart. So like, well, in this one, yeah, in the movie,

they just kind of make it like a cave. Yeah. That is like, he kind of threw some drop cloths, you know, on the cave and some candles. We're going to call it sexy. Schumacher. Where does he poop?

Schumacher. It's like that. It's like that episode of Brass City that Amy Sedaris is in. And she's like, where isn't the bathroom? It's all around. It's like that episode of Broad City that Amy Sedaris is in, and she's like, where isn't the bathroom? It's all around. It's everywhere. Oh, Schumacher.

Have you guys seen Love Never Dies? No. No, I haven't. I've, like, actively avoided it for a long time. Okay, so there's, like, 20 versions, because it's terrible, and they keep workshopping it. But in the, like, Madame Giry and Meg have... Is this a sequel? Yeah, in the sequel.

They both have like really beefed up parts. And like Madame Giry is like the red herring bad guy. Because like she's jealous. Because like turns out the Phantom has a kid from the one time he and Christine did the do. Oh my God. They fucked? Yeah, they fucked. They fucked after the musical ended.

She came back, she's like, hey, let's do it. And he's like, yeah. And then they do it. And then he's like, oh, I can't handle it and leaves. And they have this, like, what a fuck boy.

I followed you around for years, but I can't. Love Never Dies where they sing about how they fucked this one time and then they describe it in song. Why did this never make it to Broadway? I don't understand.

And then he kind of puts two and two together like, we fucked ten years ago. You have a ten year old. He's our daddy. And then Madame Jerry's like, no, he's going to take our inheritance. But then at the end of the show, turns out Meg is the bad guy. What? Yeah. And she kidnaps the kid and she's going to shoot him. Oh my god. It's so funny because Yeah, and she like kidnaps the kid and she's gonna shoot him. It's so funny because like the Phantom is talking her down. Like the show ends with the Phantom talking Meg down and then Meg accidentally shoots Christine and Christine dies.

No! Yes, yes. And the Phantom's like, no! Well, I guess I get the kid as a consolation prize, and then it ends. Love never dies. Why am I so attached to Christine? No, yeah, you're saying all this stuff about Christine, and I'm like, you're not wrong. I really am.

You're not wrong. It's hard, though. It's hard. Especially in this movie, there's not a lot of ways around it. I think there's also this sort of, like, there's the discussion between over-representation of certain harmful tropes, and also certain harmful tropes that there is some truth to, you know, because you look at like the story about this teenage girl that's just being like led by her nose by all these men. And it's like, while that is absolutely overdone, there's also a lot of truth to that, you know, just like because that's just what happens, especially in entertainment, you know, and because you see this reflected in like the careers of so many like actresses and me like i think of kesha especially who was just like right molded into

this you know figure that wasn't her and she didn't want to be and she they like you know created this public persona for her and she had to live it for so many years and the thing about christine i think that's sort of like why i think we both feel a little protective of her is like there is some truth to this for sure and um you know that's sort of like it's sort of like a both thing where it's like yeah it's so lame that she's so passive but on the other hand you know that's kind of what coming of age is for a lot of women figuring out like oh my god I have to do something and make a choice because women are not socialized to be active right you know so i guess

like i think a little more in the stage version not too much not to like act like the stage version is superior it's really not i mean it is but it's not story-wise christine you know it's just sort of her coming into her own is sort of like she does it in the only way she knows how which is to placate the murderer and considering the time period as well. I totally agree with you. And then it just becomes the duty of the storyteller and the filmmaker to frame that correctly and not glorify the wrong parts. I think that we could sort of maybe draw a comparison to Twilight here as well,

where it's like a young teenager who you know young women are going to plug themselves into. I mean, I remember doing that with Phantom of the Opera and Twilight, and then seeing a very sort of dangerous relationship develop, but have the movie be like, but this is great. That's the harmful part. And that's why Andrew Lloyd Webber's version, not the movie,

the musical, is the most successful version of Phantom because he was the one that's like, let's frame it as really sexy and let's make him

really, you know, as sympathetic as a murderer can be. And it's just like, you know, when you take a step back and you're like, well, it's no wonder

this is the one that took off, but... But that's so bleak. So bleak. Yeah, what does that say about humanity and their taste and things so like while i would agree that christine is i mean she's not making any choices and any 16 year old girl would have more of a personality than she has or at least a lot of that is on the acting like let's be honest right like and i i know, she was, again, she was too young for the part.

I'm sure there are 16-year-olds out there that could have pulled it off, but I think also, like, it's kind of a testament to bad directing. Like, Schumacher is a notoriously bad director, and part of directing is training. Because you can see, like, you can see the direction in the way that she's acting, like, because he's, you know, telling her, like, you're seduced, you're entranced. And so this is, like, really, like, you're seduced, you're entranced. And so this is like really like,

so she's just kind of clearly reacting off of these very basic and ungood direction. And that's why she looks the way she does. Right. And because I feel like there's a lot you could do with that blank slate if we had a better actor. Right. It's very frustrating to watch. I feel for Emmy Rossum in this movie.

I do too. She's so young. She's so miscast. She's really not that good in the movie. Oh, man. I was in Chamber Choir, too. Yes, it could have been any of us.

I could have been Christine. I can hit that high E. Oh, God. Emmy Rossum playing that part the way she did in a way that most teenage girls can sing was just like,

devastating for talent shows for the next several years that I could go to. I'm just like, I can think shows for the next several years. I'm just like, I can think of me like Emmy Rossum. I was like, of course you can. Yeah.

Where they're just like the, Not really. Her hitting the high note on that one always sends like a chill through my body because it's just not good. No. I mean, it's funny how many fights I've been in over that. Like, she's not good. And they're like, well, she's not supposed to be good. It's like, ah! Listen. What?

Listen. The voice of an angel over here should not sound like a gravel driveway. Like, he should. And the prima donna should sound better than your high school chamber choir diva. Like, holy, no, no, you don't get to pull that in this movie. Oh, another thing about Christine and Carlotta is that Carlotta is super jealous of Christine. And they're sort of like pitted against each other. I love it when young hot women are super threatening to older women.

I feel like that's a really good thing. Well, it just perpetuates. It's just like perpetuating. I want more of that because I think that's really healthy and creative. Let's see more of that. It's good writing. It's really good. It's good writing.

Underrepresented in cinema. It's good writing. Also, that was, yeah, that was, I mean, that's not an addition that's unique to the Lloyd Webber version. They've been like, because like she didn't really care about Christine in the book but that that's been there as early as the Lon Chaney version right where she's very strange a bitter but it's like you're the best one like you're fine you know she's fine Carlotta and Christine I think is you know a little bit of a virgin horror trope where no it's more like Carlotta is decadent and conceited, and how dare she be confident.

And it's funny, because everyone, especially in the movie, they play up that everybody hates her because she's arrogant. But it's just like, A, she's prima donna for a reason. She puts butts in seats. And B, she doesn't seem to do anything to actively offend people. But there's that scene where she's like, you know, the prima donna scene where she's like tromping out, and everybody's like mooning her and being like good riddance and it's just

like this doesn't make any sense why does everyone hate her she's kind of the reason that people have a job like they're gosh she's storming out again like why why are they acting like this i mean well to speak to all the other female characters they they have just as little agency, I would argue, as Christine, because Meg basically does nothing. Who is Meg? Who is Meg? It also bothered me that Christine, whenever they were like, hey, you should play Carlotta's part. And oh, man, this is what the Phantom wants. So let's step back here for a second and like maybe address the problem of getting rid of this phantom rather than just appeasing him for no fucking reason.

Yeah. It was crazy that they didn't have more of a. But if I was a 16 year old girl, they're like, you have the lead. We probably shouldn't try to get rid of him. It's just too dangerous. So let's just do what he wants. It's weird. That's like addressed several times of like, should we do something about this?

They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't you don't do something about the phantom he will pay his salary do you see the way he wiggles that chandelier i don't like i don't like the cut of his chin well and that's where like part of the function of madame sherry's character is just every time someone offers a practical solution she's sort of just like but you can't yeah and then it's like oh i guess we can't oh the one of the last points I wanted to bring up was, because we just did an episode on V for Vendetta, the kidnapping slash re-education trope.

Kidnapping for your betterment. Exactly. Kidnapping with the intent being that I'm going to teach you and you're going to be mine. He's like, I gave you music. You belong to me. You owe me something. You owe me your body and your talent and your presence. And it's just like, ah, why are you falling for this?

Right. And it's, you know, obviously done to a very selfish end. It barely has anything to do with Christine at all. It sort of seems like where he just, you know, wants companionship and wants hot companionship. He should just fuck his wax doll.

I mean, he for sure does. He for sure does. That doll... Let's watch it again and be like, that doll's... Congealed phantom cum yeah phantom cum

phantom cum hey speaking of other other movies I would argue that there is a titanic illusion in the beginning of phantom where there's the big reveal

go for it bear with me bear with me there's a big reveal of the of the chandelier and then that all of a sudden

is like oh we're gonna transition into the I hate the framing device so much it's so bad but whenever

everything is like dusty and shitty and then it transitions into like a nice shiny thing look at these Schumacher nipples yeah

statue nipples that I think is a direct allusion to when in Titanic, when there's the shot of the old, gross, grimy, underwater Titanic, and then it fades into this like... Schumacher's like, worked for them? Yeah. Let's try it.

This is also a sweeping romance. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Does anyone have any other final thoughts about the movie The Phantom of the Opera? I think the two people who do very well in this movie

are Minnie Driver is great I think Patrick Wilson escapes unscathed and does as well as anyone could do in this movie I'm also just

I just love Patrick Wilson he's good but his character so Raoul sucks he's so boring Raoul's on his fall yeah Raoul's he's a he's a bland they're slinging Raul fandom. Yeah.

Raul, he's a bland man. How about that scene? And he's kind of pushy, and I don't care for him. What about that scene whenever she's sleeping in a room, gets up, and then goes to the cemetery, and he's just like sleeping outside of her room? Why is he doing this? He's looking, I guess, protecting her. Yeah. But that's why I would argue that that's a choice

because she sneaks past him. She doesn't ask for permission before he goes somewhere. True. She does make an active choice in that role. Yeah, she does actively choose to rip his mask off. I forgot about that. Oh, that is true. Again, something that makes a lot more sense in the book.

He specifically tells her, don't do this. And so she's like, I think I'm going to do that. Yeah. I think I will, actually. And that's a pretty 16-year-old girl thing to do. Like, oh, you told me not to do that thing? Okay. Yeah.

But in the movies, both times it happens, it feels so unmotivated. Like, why is she doing? I also love the way it's, like, shot where he's just kind of like piano like ducking his head back and forth and well I mean it's really funny in the show because she like reaches and he'll kind of like duck away like to write something that's good stuff the reveal in the movie's so funny too because it's like that's not that bad yeah I don't know I mean like because I say like watch the live at the Royal Albert Hall version it used to be on netflix um i think it maybe it still is might be like on amazon or something now uh because i i watched it with one of my more cynical friends who had

seen the schumacher movie and that was all he had ever seen and like after he left that it was just like you know what i get it it's not for me but like I get the Phantom thing. It is honestly kind of impressive how much the movie fails to capture what worked about the show, even though it doesn't really change much about the story. I am just going to go home and watch Moulin Rouge, the only musical I like, and South Park Bigger, Longer, and Uncut. Everything else, I hate musicals. Hey, let's talk about whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. Okay. I'm going with no. Yeah. I don't think so either. There is a scene

early on when Christine talks to Meg, but they're talking about Raul. She's like, we were childhood sweethearts. He called me little Lottie or whatever. And then later on, they have a song where Christine and Meg sing to each other and christine is telling her about the angel of music but they're talking about who she perceives to be a man who is sent they're talking about the phantom yeah yeah but she at this point doesn't know who he is and seems to never figure it out through the entire movie there's a brief exchange between madame giry and Christine. Oh, this, no, it doesn't pass,

because this is after her first performance where she takes Carlotta's place, and Madame Giry's like, yeah, like, you did very well. He's very pleased with you. Madame Giry is now my least favorite character in this entire movie. Well, Madame Giry is just a whitewash, because, you know, that character in the original novel

was a Persian guy. Oh, really? Yeah. Who was never in any of the adaptations. Even in the Lon Chaney movie, they're like, psych, he's not actually Persian, he's a French guy. I love that reveal of, like, actually they were white the whole time. Like in Hunchback.

Yeah, yeah. She's not. She's white. It's cool. Yeah, this is like 100% white. I don't think you see any people of color at any point. Which is funny because in the original book, that was not the case. Hollywood white watching.

You see some non-white people in the Phantom flashback. Oh, okay. But the portrayal is not good. They're like, ha ha, you're gross. It was like the circus was run by Roma. They're like, haha, you're gross. It was like the circus was run by Roma, right? I think that's also there in all of the some of them. There's one book that

I despise in every Phantom. Every other Phantom fan loves called Phantom by Susan Kay. And it's in the romance novel section. And for you, I know you're out there getting mad. I can feel your anger. I don't care. Your hate fuels me.

Like, oof, boy. Because, like, during his time with the, you know, they use the G slur, the Roma. They, like, kidnap him, put him in a circus, and there's one named Javert who, like, tries to rape him. And it's, woof. Woof. Woof. Okay.

Well, okay, so that's a hard no. I'm a phantom. Phantom. Oh, they love it. The girls love it so much. Yeah, I don't. I mean, if women talk in the movie, they're always talking about either Raul or her daddy or the phantom. I don't think there's an exchange about something that's not any of those people. Nope.

Nope. So does not pass the test. Unsurprisingly. Let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. I would actually say surprisingly because musicals are usually a lot better about that. Yeah. And also no shortage of opportunity

even from an adaptation point. We never hear any of the many female dancers we see all the time, any of the female chorus members, and there were missed opportunities sort of scattered. When I say unsurprisingly, I mean more that this movie is not good to women or does not portray them in a strong way.

Oh, for sure. Joel Schumacher does not know what to do with women. Oh, he sure doesn't. It's like, you have dark eye shadow, right? That's sexy, right? Put the corset on the outside. Some Captain Underpants.

Show my girl! You're bad! He's so bad. You are bad. Let's rate the movie on a nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of

zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I'm gonna give it, I'm gonna say a half nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women i'm gonna give it i'm gonna say a half nipple because hey great that there is a woman in the story even more than one there's several so that's pretty much the only positive thing about it apart from that it's a movie about a young woman, again, being gaslit by every person around her, being seduced by an old creep. She is the object of his affection, emphasis on object, because she's really little. He literally objectifies her in the real, like he turns her into an object. You're so waxed all of you.

You like it. And there's a dress and she uh she faints and then she wakes up and she's like actually i could see myself hanging out with him again yeah he's my angel of music it was just a bad first impression right yeah yeah yeah yeah so that and then her having no agency no specific specific desire in the story, despite the fact that she's supposed to be the protagonist of the movie, the character that we're, you know, rooting for and plugging ourselves into and all that stuff. We have no idea what she wants. We hardly see her make any active choices or do anything. Decisions are either made for her or she just does fucking nothing and just stands by and watches and then all the other female characters are similarly useless therefore one half nipple it belongs to the shiny um golden statue nipple that we see in the very opening i just want to draw a parallel between uh meeting the Phantom and then meeting someone that you

met online he's like talking through the walls she's like he sounds great he's so nice he thinks I'm so pretty and then you meet him

and he's like he's a murderer he fucks dolls I've accidentally dated some doll fuckers not a good scene not a good scene but you never

then you see them you're like oh for sure you have a sword collection. For sure. You fucked off. Oh, I don't want to hear about your katana, sir. Oh, God. That's I I can I can think of three different examples of like going to a man's house for the first time and being like, OK, there's a sword. I better see myself out.

Yeah. Hard pass. I'm going to, I'm sorry. I'm going to give Hand of the Emperor 2004 directed by Joel Schumacher. If you give it any more than zero nipples, I'm going to be furious. I'm going to give it two nipples. I'm going to do it. No. And I don't, I'm sorry. Defend yourself.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. First of all, I'm sorry. You know what? I'm second of all, I. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Because, okay, Madame Jury, especially in this movie, garbage, really like upset with her. Meg, nothing to do. We don't know. Carlotta, I think, is a good character who's mistreated by the story, particularly in this adaptation where she's just receiving abuse from angry poor people. Confusing.

So I like Carlotta. And I do like I think that Christine sort of in this movie in particular and in the stage adaptation suffers from the same thing that Bella Swan suffers from, where she is a very clear figure that a young audience can plug themselves into, sort of reacts to a lot of things, I think, in not too dissimilar to a way a teenage girl would, but then all the bad things that are happening to her are framed as good things.

Romantic. Romanticizes her being like, oh, just give in. Give in to the abuse to the psychological... The first boy who pays attention to you, you're gonna want to marry him. You know?

Like, so it sucks to see, not realistic, but like a clear avatar that people can plug themselves into, have all the bad shit that happens to them framed as like, oh, yeah, just give up.

That's fine. But I'm gonna, I gotta give it two nipples. I have to. I have to. Well, then I gotta give it two nipples. I have to. I have to. Well, then I take back my half nipples. And I'm giving it zero just to, when we average it out, to lower the score. Is this worse than so many of the movies that we've seen, though?

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. What is the scale here? Because if it's not a scale of all movies, you know. Right. Where it's like there's so many. Maybe I'm biased because i hated this movie so much for sure but it's like i mean i feel like if this movie gets zero nipples then twilight would have to certainly i think i gave twilight pretty close to zero nipples i mean we

didn't give it a lot i gave transformers i think zero nipples yeah yeah that's my thing i'm like yeah i don't know because like to me zero nipples would be like Transformers 3. You know? Because compared to that, I'm like, boy, this is pretty good, you guys. I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe it's because I watched a lot of Transformers. Yeah, which is a great series.

Yeah, check out Lindsay's. Oh, yeah, The Whole Plate. The Whole Plate. It's my series about film theory and Transformers. Very good. It's great. Lots of things I had certainly never thought about in regards to transformers i think about transformers a lot i don't know if it shows i think on the scale of movies we've covered here it certainly

does not do well but i don't know i mean i think we're biased in opposite directions i'm certainly biased in wanting to give it more nipples than it deserves. Because I love it. Phantom rules. I'm going to see it again. I'll see the movie again. I'll see the stage adaptation again. But I recognize that, you know, feminist icon Phantom of the Opera? I think not. No, no, no, no. Two nipples.

Christine gets the nipples. Okay. All right. Yeah. Lizzie, what about you? Again, for aforementioned reasons, where if like zero is Transformers 3, I'm going to have to go with two and a half for reasons that you outlined. Like, Carlotta—actually, no, I'm going to go back down to two because I feel like stage show I'd give more because Carlotta doesn't receive that and just abuse. And, like, Christine is a little more—I mean, there's a lot of strange decisions in that. But, you know, I think the fact that Christine is just sort of like a cipher in this, you know, is a huge disservice.

But at the same time, it's like, man, there's a lot of really bad representations out there on the grand scheme. I'm like, eh, it's better than Twilight. It is better than Twilight. I don't know. I think it's about around the same. Really?

I feel like that ending, though, because, like, she ends up with Edward. She does not end up with the Phantom. Right, right. But then she ends up with Raoul, who had also been gaslighting her and being all weird. And he's like, you're a woman, so I need to protect you. And also, there is no Phantom of the Opera. You're crazy.

But also, give the man some room to be wrong. He can't be perfect. You've got to have room to grow. It changes my view of raul a little bit that they're supposed to be the same age i think that that's another sort of thing that is almost never true on in the stage version or and certainly not in the movie version where they never appear to be the same age in reality if they are you know suspend your disbelief patrick wilson and emmy rossum are the same age. That makes Raoul a little more palatable.

I mean, I still don't like that character. Yeah, because there is no Raoul fandom in the grand... There's no team Raoul. Yeah, there's no team Raoul. It's funny. Well, gang, that was the Phantom of the Opera episode. Hope you liked it. I am so glad we did it. Yeah.

Me too. Thank you for joining us, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. Of all the topics, I'm glad glad we did it. Yeah. I'm really glad. Me too. Yeah. Thank you for joining us, Lindsay. Thank you for having me. Of all the topics, I'm glad it was this one. Yay! And where can people find you online? Well, like on YouTube, my name on YouTube is just my name,

Lindsay Ellis. You can also find me on Twitter at TheLindsayEllis. Awesome. Yay. You can follow us on all the platforms, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, everything at Bechtelcast. You can donate

to our Patreon. If you do, it's $5 a month and you get two bonus episodes a month of the podcast. Hey, that's fun. Yeah.

And you can go to patreon.com slash Bechtelcast to do that. We strongly encourage it because it helps with our production costs and then we

have great bonus episodes for you guys, the fans. The PH. The PH. The PH. I love it. I love it.

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