The Bechdel Cast - The Shining with Corie Johnson

Episode Date: October 31, 2019

Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Corie Johnson go into Room 237 of the Overlook Hotel to have a little chat about The Shining. (This episode contains spoilers)For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast.Follow @corietjohnsonon Twitter. While you're there, you should also follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. nerfs the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. They're just dreams. And here they come. First, we are doing a live show in LA on November 9th at the Ruby, and we are covering Home Alone with guest Tamara Yejia. She is the best. Awesome. And this is our last show at that location because the Ruby is moving to a different spot. So you don't want to miss this show. It's very special. And it's the last time we're doing a live show at that specific spot. And if you don't come, we'll set an elaborate booby trip and you'll be upset. Also, because today's episode is Colorado adjacent, we want to say we are coming to Colorado. Specifically, Denver ever heard of it.

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Hello and welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Caitlin Durante. Ooh! Ooh! It's scary, it's Halloween! That was my very clever way of... people pay me to do this. Okay, my name is Jamie Loftus. Oh, sorry. Ooh! And this is the Bechdel cast, our podcast about women in movies. That's right. We use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point, which is a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel.

Alison Bechdel. Also called the Bechdel-Wallace test. Scary. because what it is is a media metric that requires that two female identifying characters with names talk to each other about something other than a ghost. Who is a man? Who identifies as a man? Oh, man. This is electric.

I feel my blood at the surface of my skin. Can we demo the test? Yeah, let's do it. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. blood at the surface of my skin can we demo the test yeah let's do it um hey jamie hey caitlin uh all work and no play uh-huh makes caitlin a doll woman i'm gonna hit you with a bat it's violent but it passes unlike well actually can we say that unlike the movie we're covering today what if someone was just like oh they spoiled it at the beginning that's my favorite criticism of our podcast we're like oh they said it at the beginning so why would i keep fucking listening

i'm like i guess you're just not the demo wait have people had that criticism yeah i read all the itunes reviews please please leave a nice one please do please leave a nice one. Please do. Please leave a nice one. This Halloween season. Please. Pay it forward. Be kind. Be kind to each other this Halloween season. No tricking. Only treating.

Just for us. Just treats us, please. Yes. But yeah, we're talking about The Shining today. And we have an incredible guest. We certainly do. She is a comedian. She's hilarious

We love her She's about to move to New York City Ever heard of it? So we had to get her on before she moves New York listeners, welcome her with open arms It's Kori Johnson Hi What's up, babe?

Hi Welcome I'm here Red rum Red rum It's red rum season It's red rum no it's not be don't don't red around each other right uh okay so we're talking about the shining yes stanley kubrick 1980 yes wow cory what is your history relationship with the movie have you read the book

read the book so i could understand the movie in general and just compare them i like the book better but then also the the cinematography of the movie is really amazing vibrant captivating and it's just you said 1980 i don't know how he still looks jack nicholson's it looks so old oh am i talking about the wrong movie no you aren't no it's like i was i was thinking the same thing i was just like how old is he in this movie and he's like in his 40s he looks like 60 but he looks like hell he looks bad but maybe that just means he's doing a good job yeah i don't think that was like his acting but yeah let's spin it to a compliment yeah he looks like hell but you know jack's to hear this and he's going to be livid.

So I'll just spin that. Corey, I didn't mean to tell you this, but Jack contributes to our Patreon. He's our biggest fan. And we really need that $5. We really need it. Times are tough. My bad. Didn't know.

Didn't get the disclaimer. Sorry, Jack. Sorry, Jack. Sorry, Jack. I'm sorry, Jack. Fuck. Actually, this is a bit of a tangent at the beginning. Cancel me.

But friend of the pod, Mary Houlihan, just wrote a very funny show that people should see if they're in the area. She's New York based, but it's called Me and Jack. And it's this fictional account of how she dated Jack Nicholson. But Jack Nicholson is too busy playing his PS4 to pay attention to her. Oh, my God. It's really funny. All right. I'll check it out right yeah honestly that sounds good

it's very jamie-esque that's um up jamie's alley it's really good i enjoyed it the grin on jamie's face right now i cannot explain it i'm still laughing she's still smiling okay so you read the book read the book you've seen the movie seen the movie a couple times i like the movie i don't know what else to say shelly duvall's teeth will be licked by me one day. She's alive, right? She is. She's still alive. She absolutely is.

Okay, very cool. I tweeted about it, so I had to say it. That's the rule. That's the rule. What's your history with it, Caitlin? I have not read the book, which makes me nervous to talk about this movie in particular because i feel like i don't know stephen king heads out there are like yeah stephen king and then when we do a movie adapted from a book and you know every what i'm trying to say is listeners remember that we're not a book podcast we're not an adaptation podcast I still am suffering from whiplash from Lord of the Rings over a year ago.

Oh, my God. Where I'm just like, listen, it's a free podcast. Take it or leave it. Right. Okay? Relax. So I have not read the book. I have seen the movie a fair number of times.

I would say probably like six or seven times throughout my life. And I like it. I like the movie. Did you just make a poor adjunct? My life. Oh, my God. I did not mean to. I did not not see that coming i did not mean to say it like that i'm embarrassed uh but i do enjoy the movie you have not pronounced anything correctly today i was getting so nervous because we have to say ewan mcgregor you couldn't say you and McGregor. You also couldn't say Stanley Kubrick.

I can't either. Is it Kubrick? Is it Kubrick? I'm not sure. I've always said Kubrick. And then you just pulled out that last one. I'm not sure. Sean Malone.

Sean Malone. Well, clearly I'm a fuck up. No, it's adorable. But you're a fan of the movie, Caitlin. Yes. Okay. I saw this movie on my first day of college. I had a cool college roommate who was like, there's a little movie theater I know about in the corner of Boston. And I was like, how? Like, we just got here. But she just had that like, cool person instinct. And she found a screening of The Shining. And I went and I went to college with no knowledge of like cinema per se.

I'd seen a lot of movies, but I hadn't seen much cinema. And I really liked it. And it was like it became one of my faves for a little while. I've like seen the documentaries and then. Oh, Room 237. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great doc. I had to stop because it made me so furious.

It was. Yeah. seven yeah that's a great that's a great dog i had to stop because it made me so furious it was yeah and then and then uh and then in recent years i have like learned more about stanley kubrick don't ask me i already made fun of you and i don't even know how to say i you know drag me but i i've learned more about him i've watched documentaries about him specifically i've watched some of his older stuff and now i'm just like it's a beautiful movie, but I don't love it. Sure. Yeah. Let's dive in to the recap, shall we? Yes, you can interject in the recap and them's the rules. Absolutely. All right. So Jack Torrance, played by Jack Nicholson, he gets a job looking after this huge hotel, the Overlook Hotel, which is nestled into the Rocky Mountains. And he needs to look after it over the winter when they close because of the harsh weather. Right.

Because, and this is in Colorado, right? Colorado, yes. I had no idea where it was. Thank God. It's the rare Stephen King point that doesn't take place in Maine, right? Oh, interesting. And it's very secluded. It's very isolated.

Yeah, the opening sequence, they're driving. This might not be funny to anyone but me. They're driving through the mountains to get there or whatever. And the YouTube video that they used to have back in the day where the car is driving and then they scare you, you know what I'm talking about? Yes! The infamous one. The jump. The literally infamous.

The OG jump scare. It looks just like that. And I was like, do I turn it off? I was really stoned. But I was like, do I turn it off? I didn't realize until I'd seen The Shining like three times that that's the clip that you're, it's like, watch the car.

Follow the car. Is that the clip? I'm pretty sure it is. Or it's like a very similar car. And then the devil comes out and is like so someone like edited in like a scary thing you have to watch it after big halloween energy now that you're saying it it might be a nissan commercial it's like a red nissan ultima but it's fine I think we can consider this relevant discussion yes I think so so the manager of the overlook hotel tells jack

about this winter caretaker from a few years ago and he's like just so you know he did axe murder his wife and two young daughters but jack is like so don't worry that won't happen to me he goes i love being alone he says he's like's like, no, I got this. I like being this alone. He's so, yeah. Yep. Yep. The ego. Because he's going to be there working on a writing project.

That's what tempts him about taking this job where he's going to be in isolation. But he will be there with his family. His wife. His wife. Wendy. And their young son. Yeah, Shelley Duvall. And their young son yeah shelly deval and their young son danny also named danny lloyd plays danny so yeah some really one-to-ones with the character names

although uh mr uh halloran's name is not scatman crothers which is which is a shame it should this character should just be called scatman crothers yeah why make it easier for jack and danny and the rest of the cast has to remember a different name right it's almost like they have to act upsetting so the thing about danny is that he's got this kind of like imaginary friend question mark tony tony soprano i thought maybe tony shalhoub oh that'd be fun i thought it was tony soprano going to little therapy sessions inside of danny's mouth sure for me it's tony bennett and that's all canonically the sopranos takes place inside of danny torrence's mouth that's what happens at the end they pull out like at the end of men in black when they just like, when it's the world, the galaxy is just like a marble. It's the same thing.

They do Don't Stop Believing and then it cuts to black. But if you keep watching, it zooms out. It's Danny's mouth. Oh my God. So he's got this person, Tony, who like lives in his finger or his mouth. It's the mouth, but he talks to his finger. But it also might be this like kind of clairvoyant possession, which we'll learn about a little later on. So the family arrives at the hotel and they're shown around.

Mr. Halloran, a.k.a. Scatman Crothers, shows them some stuff. And then creepy shit starts happening right away like Danny sees the ghost of these two little girls Danny also has this psychic connection with Mr. Halloran and he is like hey Danny we have this connection I also had it with my grandmother she called it The Shining and we're like hey that's the name of the movie and you're like and that's why they call it that right and then you get excited then you're like i'm in here i'm in i'm in and then it kind of never comes back like the word name check yeah shining they got that all the way early and i do like that actually because when it's towards the end of the movie it's like they try to make when is he gonna say and that's one

million ways to die does that happen in that movie no what if that was the last line of the movie lose day yeah we're something in the water today okay so danny and mr halloran have this whole conversation about Tony and how he shows Danny things and how the Overlook Hotel is messed up and bad things happen there. And then Danny asks about room 237. And Mr. Halloran's like, nothing happened there. Everything's fine.

And don't go in that room. So a month passes. And the family has settled in. Jack is trying to figure out what to write about. Relatable. He's doing a packet. He's literally, he's applying to Cordon. And he's like, oh my god.

I can't think of any web segments. This is hard. Monologue jokes are hard. This is niche humor. You know. Right. A cordon packet. So then, Jack also seems a bit stir crazy because he's like flinging a tennis ball against the walls.

So hard. Loud. So hard, so loud. It was stressing me out. I was like, every single time they arm power that man has. Anyway hard. So loud. And I don't have... It was stressing me out. I was like, every single time they arm power, that man has... Anyway, just an observation. It comes back with the axe. Yeah, they're setting it up.

Yeah. And then there's this enormous hedge maze that Wendy and Danny walk through for fun, you know? And we're like, oh, they're setting it up. Plant and payoff, baby. Oh, yeah. Then Danny rides around on his big wheel through the hotel. And then he rides past room 237. And he's like, yikes. But then he rides away.

He's a coward. He's a coward. What a pussy. It's at this point when jack starts being especially emotionally abusive and his mental state is starting to unravel really the second people leave he drops the act and becomes an abuser yeah yes we'll talk all about it it starts to snow outside the The phone lines go down. So Wendy radios the, I think it's like the parks department nearby or something. Yeah. Some like vague, unhelpful entity.

Entity, yeah. And they're like, yeah, the phone lines are going to be down till spring. So then Danny sees the ghost twins again. And they're like, come play with danny forever and ever and ever and then all that poor little kitty looks so scared he's so scared because he also says he sees a vision of them having been axe murdered right and the halls are all bloody and he freaks out understandably so and jack is getting even creepier and more unhinged. He tells Wendy about a nightmare he had where he killed her and Danny and chopped them up into little bits.

Then Wendy notices some bruises on Danny's neck and she thinks that Jack hurt their son. And Jack is like, I don't know. Right. And then at this point, we already know that he's like hit danny in the past right because he goes to the gold room to blow off some steam because it's like this loungy bar area and then all of a sudden there's a bartender there and there's also a whole party going on is that later yeah that's a little later. But there's still a bit of a part there. And Jack tells this bartender Lloyd about this one time when he lost his temper and accidentally

hurt Danny a few years ago. Jack Nicholson is great in that scene. It is so scary. Yes. His performance overall is quite stunning, I'll say. Wow. She loves him. What can I say? He's our biggest fan. He loves him. I know. What can I say?

He's our biggest fan. He loves us. It's true. He gives us $5 every month, $60 annually. Yeah. So Wendy comes running in frantically to the room. And apparently there's this lady in one of the rooms who tried to strangle Danny. Jack's like, what room is it? And then he goes into it, and guess what?

It's room 237. And there is a young naked woman, so he naturally starts to make out with her. Right, because you're not, like, confused or, like, Annie, you're like, why is she here? How did she get here? Oh, no, clearly we're going to fuck. She's naked.

And every young naked woman wants to make out with Jack Nicholson. But then, as they're making out, she turns into, like, a rotting zombie lady. Yeah. As also happens every time. And it also looks really cool. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, well, yeah. Older women have to be associated with body horror. Right.

Just, like, just gashes. Yeah. Just gashes. Hot. So Jack freaks out. But when he goes back to tell Wendy about it, he's like, I didn't see anything. Not a goddamn thing. And she believes him.

Well, she's like, how did this happen? What about Danny's bruises? And Jack's like, I think. I became my BFF. He's like, I think Danny did it to himself. And Wendy is freaking out and she's growing increasingly concerned about the safety of her and her son.

And she wants to get Danny out of there. And Jack does not like this idea. And he yells at her and he storms out. And then this is when Jack goes back to the banquet hall. And it's not full of people who are like ghosts, question mark, from the 1920s. Right. And one of them is Mr. Grady. He was the caretaker who axe murdered his family.

And Grady's like, no, that's not me, Mr. Torrance. You're the caretaker. By the way, your son is being meddlesome. Andome and like you should put him and your wife in their place. Meanwhile, Danny is trying to telepathically communicate with Scatman Crothers to get help. And Mr. Halloran is like trying to reach the hotel by phone, but he can't get through. Meanwhile, Jack dismantles the radio. And then Mr. Halloran flies across the country to try to get to them. But the snowstorm keeps like dumping down snow everywhere.

Right. Mr. Halloran is the realist. He comes through so clutch for almost no reason. Like it's just the shining thing. He's like, well, that kid and I have a lot. He knows the sordid history. He was in Miami or something. Yeah, he was in Florida.

He goes a long way, yeah. Spends all that money on a plane ticket. He's a good man. He is. Oh, what a nice guy. He lives in the book. So then Wendy finds the manuscript that Jack has been working on all this time. And it's famously pages and pages of all work and no play makes Jack a doll boy. It's a cordon packet.

That's my cordon packet. That's my cordon packet I turned in. And you know what? I'm staffed. Congratulations my Korten bag and I turned in. And you know what? I'm staffed. Congratulations. I got it. He loved it. I got it. Wow. Congratulations.

So then Jack approaches her as she's like looking at his incredible comedy writing. And at this point, he is completely unhinged and he's screaming at her. She's terrified of him. She's swinging a baseball bat. She's defending herself. That's good. She manages to hit him on the head and then she drags his unconscious body to the kitchen and then locks him up in like this pantry storage room. I liked how obvious it was that they used a stunt, Jack, because they cut all the way

away. Like Jack Nicholson was like, I'm not even going to start to fall. Then cut to stunt Jack who like eats shit in the most amazing way. And then you're like, and there's Jack again, who gently walked down the stairs and then you're like and there's jack again who gently walked down the stairs and laid himself down yeah so then she goes outside to the like snowcat snowmobile vehicle to try to escape but jack has cut the wires and the tubes and everything so she's trapped there and danny is yelling about red rum which spoiler murder backwards okay you didn't have to ruin that for us caitlin jesus so sorry so sorry it's like telling you who's the masked singer you simply don't do it forgive me forgive, somehow, we don't totally understand how, gets out of the storage room.

Maybe Mr. Grady the ghost lets him out. And then he starts chopping down the door of Wendy's room with an axe. And then he's like, here's Johnny. Wendy grabs Danny and they try to escape out the window. But then this is when Mr. Halloran shows up and Jack goes after him, murders him with an axe. And then Jack is chasing after Danny who runs into the maze. Wendy's back in the hotel looking for Danny and she sees a furry giving a blowjob to someone. Which I totally forgot about i always forget about that scene what not sure i don't think there's any i mean does that happen in the book

no so stanley kubrick's just like lol random humor it absolutely does not happen in the not sure i this is one of those movies where i'm, a million people are going to be our mentions. Like, the furry obviously meant. But like, I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Nor could I. Okay. Okay. Oh, tails.

Funny. Wow, that's going in the cordon packet. That's going in the cordon packet. In the packet it goes so then jack chases after danny in the maze and he's following danny's tracks in the snow danny at one point he backtracks a little bit and then he hides his tracks and then jack gets lost danny manages to get back out of the maze he and wendy escape in the snow vehicle that scatman Crothers arrived in. And then we catch the following morning.

Jack has frozen to death. And then we see a photo of him from 1921 that he is in, leaving a lot open to interpretation. Inspiring a million annoying YouTube videos. Just a whole genre of speculative bullshit that I don't... Sorry. Kaylin, would you agree when I say that Jack Torrance isn't your average person?

Yeah, I agree with that. Okay. Well, I know something about an average person. Tell me. Also, for everyone who isn't Jack Torrance out there, the average person spends one third of their life sleeping and not awake and killing people like Jack Torrance so you should be comfortable while you're sleeping all that time right right well that's where Casper comes in did you see that coming Jack Torrance really could have solved

if he had had Casper I think well I mean and too bad this episode isn't about Casper, the friendly little boy ghost movie. With all his creepy uncles. Right. But this episode is about, of course, The Shining, the movie whose sequel is Dr. Sleep. Oh, wow. Because, see what I did there? Yeah, I get it. Because Casper is a sleep brand that makes expertly designed products to help you get your best rest one night at a time.

Are you listening, Jack Torrance? I'm kidding. He dies. Casper products are cleverly designed to mimic human curves, which provide supportive comfort for all kinds of bodies. The original Casper mattress combines multiple supportive memory foams for quality sleep service with the right amount of sink and bounce. Imagine all the, do you think the ghosts would use them? You know what? I bet they're in every hotel room at the Overlook Hotel.

I think things would have ended so differently if only. If only. Right. Casper mattress had been around. Gee whiz. Oh boy. You know what they also have is a breathable design that helps regulate body temperature throughout the night nice so you know the ghosts and people

alike won't be overheating as they sleep i worry about ghosts overheating like a car casper also caitlin has affordable prices because they cut out the middleman and they sell directly to you so they've got hassle-free returns if you out the middleman and they sell directly to you. So they've got hassle-free returns if you're not completely satisfied and they have the free shipping and returns in the U.S. and Canada. Now to bring us back to The Shining, I would say Jack Torrance really is a middleman and he really biffed it up. That's right. That's something to think about. I think that's very positive. Incredible, incredible connection. Thank you. Guess what? You can be sure of your purchase with Casper's 100-night risk-free sleep on it trial.

And you can get $100 towards select mattresses by visiting casper.com slash tbc and using tbc at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. That's $100 towards select mattresses at casper.com slash tbc for the bechtel cast and use tbc at checkout sweet dream which is something that we never hear jock torrence say which brings us back to what we were just discussing wow wow tasteful so there's a lot to discuss with this damn movie. There is. Yes. Why don't we start with adaptation stuff?

Because I think that there is like a little more to talk about than normal when it comes to adaptation for this specific movie. I'm really stupid when it comes to the book, but I'll try my best. Don't say that. Corey, you're the only person who's read the book. I'm so fucking smart when it comes to the book. but I'll try my best. Don't say that. Corey, you're the only person who's read the book. I'm so fucking smart when it comes to the book. I might say things that are better than either of you. Please, you're welcome to dunk on us. The one thing that I do remember that's different is, sorry if it's cutting in too late,

instead of him being hit in the head and then being dragged away, he had hit his own head climbing over a bar. He went to go make himself a drink and he hit his own head climbing over a bar. He went to go make himself a drink and he hit his own head and fell and then she found him and dragged him. Oh, so the movie makes her more active then. Yeah. Okay, that's good. There's also, so I haven't read the book, but I spoiled it for myself.

Some things that stuck out to me were, first of all, Stephen King hated the creative deviations made from the book to the movie which we'll get into but a few things that stuck out to me and I'm sure that there's other stuff but I guess there's a point in the book where Wendy considers leaving Jack and Danny says no I want to stay with him and that's why Wendy doesn't leave sooner or doesn't attempt to leave even after she knows something is very wrong uh Mr. Halloran is not killed off in the book uh he helps them escape and then there's an epilogue that takes place the next summer um and Halloran is working in Maine Stephen King of course uh and he's comforting Danny over the loss of his dad

and Wendy is like recuperating from the injuries that Jack gave her and it's like this weird sorted... What a dream, honestly. Yeah, so they welcome a more stable influence into their lives through Mr. Halloran

and they move to Maine because it's a Stephen King book. I don't usually like happy endings but I did really like that ending because it is just adorable and good. I just really enjoyed it. And it does seem like, and Corey I mean, let me know if you agree, this seemed to be

just the way that the book plays out and what Stephen King has to say about it more explicitly about his alcoholism and addiction more so than like some weird spirit whatever yeah which I appreciate I agree with you and appreciate more in the sense that I don't know addiction stuff is like really important it just shows a lot more it's more realistic to me I'm only really like like realistic thing I mean besides the whole like ghost children and whatever thing I like the whole point where it's like, oh, it's not like a weird, like, the home doing

it. It's like, oh, this guy is just clearly an alcoholic and abusive alcoholic, and that's okay. No, it's not okay, but it's like, you know, it just makes more sense to me. It just, like, grounds it a little. Or, I mean, I don't know. It's weird, because, like, reading what Stephen King has to say about it kind of turned me on the movie a little bit just to know that he is so against the way specifically Wendy's part is written. So he

gave an interview to I believe it's the Guardian in 2013. And here's what he has to say. He says, quote, the books Wendy does have a lot more depth. She's fighting against the revelation, which she's already made before the book starts, that her husband is basically a marginally talented writer who will never really amount to anything because he's filled with rage demons, self-loathing, and booze. Wendy feels like her wagon's been hitched, and the book is partly about the way she manages to unhitch herself and her son from an abusive alcoholic patriarch. So the hotel is like a metaphor or whatever he said that about his own book uh and and he and then he later in the same interview

describes he says oh sorry this interview is with the bbc i got english publications mixed up cancel me uh so he says that uh the film in general to him seemed too cold. He says, quote, I'm not a cold guy. Defensive, okay? Does he mean cold like literally because it's snowy? Swish. Wow. Put it in the cordon packet.

We're in. See you later, fellas. I'm off to cordon. Okay. I don't know why am uh i would happily you know what you know what okay quote i'm not a cold guy i think one of the things people relate to in my book is this warmth there's a reaching out and saying to the reader i want you to be a part of this with kubrick's the shining i felt that it was very cold very we're looking at these people but they're like ants in an anthill aren't they doing interesting things shelly duvall is wendy is really one of the most misogynist characters ever put on film she's basically just there to scream and be stupid and that's not the woman i

wrote about unquote dunk so that is not the woman he wrote about which is interesting because i like don't even completely like i don't even completely agree that kubrick's wendy is stupid or she's really smart yeah she's like really active if anything she's just like she's defensive and kind of just like stockholm syndrome about her husband but like I feel like a lot of women are. Is that misogynistic of me to say? Well, just like being inside of an abusive relationship. Exactly, and him being an addict and having a kid on top. Yeah, that's just how it happens.

And also they are literally trapped. But that's just for context. That is the main ways that it deviates from the source material. And Stephen King still does not ride for this movie even 500 years later. Also, apparently there's no maze in the book. And instead it's like these topiaries that come to life or something like that. I forgot about that too. I love the maze.

Visually, this movie is incredible. It's so good. Very well shot. This is one of the first movies that used a steadicam. And it is awesome. I love the shots, you know, the big wheel riding around. Even the panning in on the maze in the beginning. Beautiful. panning in on the on the maze in the beginning yeah beautiful so other stuff that is relevant

to the discussion is uh some behind the scenes stuff so the behind the scenes for this movie is like deep lore there's that whole documentary room 237 about it the main takeaway is i mean stanley kubrick did not have an incredible reputation among female actors that he worked with. And the most egregious example is how Shelley Duvall felt about her experience working with him. So Stanley Kubrick's daughter, he was like, wouldn't let anyone behind the scenes or like document stuff behind the scenes, which red flag. He was like, I don't want people to remember how i treat other people so cool uh but he let his daughter who i think was like maybe 20 or 21 at the time document some of the behind the scenes and the full thing is available on youtube it's like a half hour long but you can

see where shelly daval has said a number of times that he was verbally abusive to her to allegedly you know get this manic terrified performance out of her that's fucked but he was like yelling at her all the time discrediting her saying she wasn't doing a good job just uh he made her do the take with the here's johnny and then shelly has the axe 127 times holy Holy shit. The most documented takes of any, like, of anywhere recorded. And there's, like, firsthand footage from Stanley Kubrick's daughter of him yelling at her on set, her crying on set, and no one doing anything to help and so she had a really bad experience with him and was vocal about it even I mean at the time and then for years after and it wasn't until maybe the past 10 years that people have taken that literal firsthand footage seriously of mistreating female actors because you also see him work with Jack Nicholson

and he is not treated that way. And so, I mean, it definitely speaks to the culture on Stanley Kubrick's set. It also, I'm sure, has a lot to do with the era of, I mean, he was making her out to be hysterical and like, well, if you're doing a better job, I wouldn't be treating you this way. So that is, I think, an important piece of context

specifically to Shelley Duvall. And the reviews for this movie at the time don't mention her performance literally at all. Really? No, it's so good. So it's just really frustrating, that entire piece. I also read that his mistreatment of her gave her such horrible stress that she became physically ill for months and her hair was falling out and stuff like that.

And I've also heard stories, and take this with a grain of salt because I didn't do enough reading up on this. So this is sort of just like anecdotal stuff I've heard over the years, but that he treated Scatman Crothers the same way and having him do dozens and dozens and dozens of takes of the same shot and interesting his only non-white he would be like what do you want me to do differently like please just like tell me like how can i make this the take that you want and stanley kubrick's just like do it again it's just it's like incredibly i i hadn't read that that's like incredibly frustrating and still a problem that it's like there's an anecdote from fucking the joker movie of just like shit that white male leads can get away with on set that their co-stars just can't we're like it came out at the time of recording the other day where you know joaquin

phoenix is allowed to go totally method so he's just being a fucking dick to everyone right and making everyone's who's making you know 0.5 of what he's making he's just making their lives way more difficult except for robert de niro who he was very well behaved with and turned his character on and off demonstrating almost like it's not necessary and he just enjoys being horrible to people. So, I mean, it's something that still happens, but this is like, I think, a particularly egregious example of like abuse of power in a director's role. Absolutely. So that is bad and also not for nothing stanley kubrick has a uh not an incredible record of uh

female characters in his films either oh he uh put it in the card and pack it he uh doesn't seem to prioritize female characters literally at all. Is there one woman in full metal jacket? Oh, that might be one of those movies. She's the full metal jacket. Full metal jacket identifies female. Oh no, that's the movie that famously

has that very racist portrayal of Vietnamese sex workers. Those are the only women too. I swear, literally I've seen it a million times. I think those are the only women. Yes. And as far as I know on his,

in his filmography or whatever, his canonical filmography, the only movie he ever makes with a female lead is Lolita. Oh. And I can speak to, that's one of the, I've seen a bunch of his movies but i think that the shining and lolita are the two that i've seen the most because that is i mean

it's obviously super controversial work to begin with but has has been adapted horrendously both times it was attempted and yeah kubrick fucking botches it and the only time and and then you know that's in 1962 and he's like i know what i'll do never make a movie about a woman again so that and then and then the last little piece of the context corner that i'll kick in here is that this movie or the screenplay is co-written with a female author. Yes. Which, you know, give them a little point at the end. She was a well-known novelist at this time, but she had never written a screenplay before.

This is Diane Johnson. Diane Johnson. Say her name. But yeah, so Diane Johnson, I guess Kubrick, her work was brought to his attention. He liked it. He thought she would be a good collaborator on it. And she wrote an essay about it last year on a film journal called Scraps from the Loft. And by all accounts, it seemed like she had a lovely time working with him.

So, you know, it's all over the place. So he didn't scream at her and make her cry all the time and make her hair fall out? Nope. Okay. As far as we know, anyway. I mean, I don't say, you know, some things are unspoken. But as of 2018, I mean, she describes him being like he was kind of notoriously a weird guy, but not like... Is he dead?

An abusive... He's dead. He's for sure dead. He's so dead. As long as he's like fully dead. I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know. So anyways, that's the, it's, it's a deep context corner, but, but there it is. No, thank you very much. That's all very helpful. So let's get into the narrative, the characters. I would, here's oh here's where i'm coming here we go ready i would argue that there could be a feminist read of this movie in the same way that there can be a feminist read of Rosemary's Baby,

for example, a movie that we did talk about, where even though the female character, because there is really only one unless you count the twins of the kid, axe murdered or a naked lady, the one female character in the movie who has any narrative significance is not empowered. But I feel like the movie it shows the horrors of being a victim of abuse and in this movie unlike rosemary's baby she is triumphant in the end

and she gets away from her abuser and i think that most of the horror in this movie doesn't come from any of the like supernatural blood gushing out of the elevator like none of that stuff really affected me the stuff that affects me is like the abuse that she endures so i chose to to watch this movie on my second rewatch through the lens of just her being in an abusive relationship and i found that like all the supernatural ghost and psychic stuff and all that stuff ends up just sort of being metaphors for the horrors that take place when someone is in an abusive relationship right i think that that is the intention yes good i did a good job um yeah i i i agree with you to to an extent i mean it's

it's tricky it's i think that it ends up kind of coloring my rate of it a little bit when we know that this they were given more with the source material and chose not to use it sure feels telling in some ways but she does i mean she certainly has a lot of agency um i mean especially as the story goes on it's weird i mean it it does sort of speak to a lot of like the hallmarks of being in an abusive relationship where she's saying one thing but it's very clear that she's scared uh there's like a lot of examples of her appeasing him to protect herself and to protect Danny. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's horrifying. And I feel like there have been some because there was after Stephen King like shat upon the movie, there was sort of this avalanche of clickbait or thoughtful film commentary, depending on how you read it.

Sure. That was agreeing with him. But I feel like in a lot of that where they're like, well, she's made out to be, you know, dumb, and why doesn't she leave? And I'm like, well, that's the victim blaming. I don't see that at all. Yeah, I didn't see that at all. Yeah. So I mean, I think her character, and especially Shelley Duvall does an amazing job because she, you can tell she's lying for the most part. And you can tell that she's like physically afraid of him. And we have reason to be physically afraid of him.

And we know that the whole movie, which is just like, yeah. Well, I did kind of like a beat by beat sort of breakdown. All the story beats that relate to the abusive relationship. So I just kind of want to like go through them and like just sort of analyze it a bit. So the first thing you kind of realize is that Wendy seems to be doing all of the parenting of Danny. So Jack is very hands off. He's focused on his job, both in his hotel duties, which he doesn't ever end up actually doing. And Wendy does all of it because she's the one who's like checking the phone lines, checking the boilers, checking the voltage.

Right. Because he's focusing on his cordon packet. So many great. Carpool karaoke is fucking hard. It's not easy to write. It's not easy. He. It's not easy. So he's not really paying attention to Danny at all. She's doing all of the emotional labor of parenting.

Was this the dynamic of many American families throughout most of history? Yes. But that was like the first thing I noticed. Sure. Toward the beginning, Wendy brings him breakfast, which she has made him. Eggs just the way he likes, sunny side up. And then meanwhile, he has slept in until like 1130. She's presumably been up for hours, like taking care of their son.

He expresses no regret at all. He's like, oh, weird that I slept so late. Right. And then, yeah. Also no gratitude that she like made him and brought him breakfast. And then she says, oh, weird that I slept so late. Right. And then, yeah. Also no gratitude that she made him and brought him breakfast. And then she says, oh, it's a nice day. Would you take me for a walk after you finish breakfast? And he responds, I need to get some writing done first.

So they don't hang out. She instead goes on a walk through the maze with Danny. A little while later, Jack is typing at his typewriter and then wendy comes in and she's like hey how's it going have you gotten a lot written today and then he basically starts berating her saying like you're interrupting me you're breaking my concentration please get the fuck out he's ripping up paper she's throwing them he's like having a tantrum and this is like i think maybe the first time that you see hints that he's like a scary violent unhinged abusive person i always used to read his behavior as like

being the result of being in isolation and the like creepy hotel ghost stuff like getting to him and haunting him yeah but this time i read it as he's always been emotionally abusive it has nothing to do with the hotel he's just a horrible person and the creepy stuff in the hotel is just like metaphors for him being right and a horrible abuser and it was like in the fact that they set that up at the beginning and say that this has happened so many times, it sets up like the abuse cycle as a metaphor. Wow. I haven't thought about it.

Wow. Someone who doesn't know how to look into things like that. I'm like, oh, it looks really pretty. The movie is gorgeous. And then you guys say that. I'm like, oh yeah, people, movies mean things. It's like. I mean, but then sometimes they don't.

Sometimes they have to. We've also covered but it is like they set up the idea at the beginning of the movie that if an already angry rage-filled man is left in isolation that they will become violent yeah then we see that scene where he's like yelling in his sleep and then he wakes up from his nightmare and he's like, oh, my God, I had this awful dream where I killed you and Danny and chopped you up into bits. And like he's expressing remorse, which I took as like being symbolic of like when abusers say to their partners like, oh, my God, I just got angry. It'll never happen again. Please don't leave me i love you yeah yeah so then uh shortly after that we have the scene where he reveals to the bartender that he's accident one time he quote accidentally lost his temper and hurt danny says uh he says he had a

momentary loss of muscular coordination which is just like the a very well-written piece of fuckery right exactly and then this is also when he starts to be vocal about how he blames wendy for ruining his life for like his mindset turning him into this loser kind of person. Right. He says something like, oh, that bitch will not let me forget what happened as long as I live. Three years ago. Like it's just like three years ago. That's. Oh, yeah. Then Wendy comes running in and says, you know, there's a crazy woman in one of the rooms.

She tried to strangle Danny. And then his Jack's first response is, are you out of your fucking mind? So he doesn't believe her. She keeps telling him about it. And then he goes to investigate. And this is when he makes out with a young lady and then corpse lady. And then when he comes back, he lies to Wendy about what happened and then accuses Danny of giving himself his own bruises. Even though I think it's one of the more confusing parts of the movie to me.

That's like where and I don't know exactly if this deviates from the book, but that's the one point where it didn't totally track for me. Wendy's thought process, because I just don't. It's she already knows she doesn't trust her husband, especially when it comes to her son. I don't know. That's the one point in the narrative where I'm like, I don't understand why you would take him at his word for that. Well, I feel like if anything, it's like everyone in that situation is in denial about it. It's almost as if he's even being like, oh, no, he did it to himself.

Because in a way, it's also a metaphor of the abuse part. Because a lot of abusers are like, oh, no, they just did this because they did this and you're like yeah no they did it to themselves i also read it as like wendy making excuses just for like oh well survival instinct exactly the way that a lot of abuse victims have to do for self-preservation um so that's how i read that uh and then right after that whenever wendy's like we've got to get danny out of here and then jack freaks the fuck out and he's like oh it's so typical of you to create a problem like this where you know i finally have the chance to accomplish something and you've fucked up my life and i let you fuck it up, but I'm not going to do that anymore. So now he's like gaslighting her, blaming her for all of his problems.

The scene that was most jarring and felt like most that metaphor really hit for me is she, so right after that, she hits him on the head and he falls, she drags him. And then after he's locked in the kitchen, like freezer, whatever, and he's trying to convince her to let him out.

And that mental manipulation scene where you keep cutting back to him fully laughing at the fact that she's starting to believe that he could be telling the truth. Right. And then she stands her ground and she's like, sorry, but I'm leaving and i'm taking our son and like you're not going to be able to hurt us anymore and then you know like the reveal to her i guess that he's really never going to change and that right so yeah what happens there he tries three different tactics first he's like just irate and screaming saying get me the fuck out of here like open this door she doesn't comply uh the second tactic is oh no you i think you really hurt me on my head i need a doctor trying to like appeal to her more

nurturing sensibilities also doesn't work she doesn't fall for it and then she's like i'm going i'll bring a doctor back that's what she tells him who knows i imagine that she probably would have just gotten the hell out of there and never come back. So she's like, I'm leaving. I'll bring a doctor back. And he's like, you're not going anywhere. I snipped all those wires for that snow vehicle, which I think both him cutting the wires of the snowcat and he dismantles the radio earlier on, I think, is a metaphor for when abusers cut off communication for victims. Early on. Yep, yep absolutely it's loaded and then it is like the fact that she is triumphant is kind of especially for like this era and i guess we we like stephen king gets the credit for this because that was you know she

escapes in the story as well but like that seems like kind of like a uncharacteristically like kind of cool like oh she got she got out like and he and he you know quote unquote got his um for for treating them that way yeah but yeah they're watching it with that in mind it's like i understand stephen king's criticisms and i think that there is sometimes something to be said for like if it takes you five viewings to get there you know I mean some people view that as like oh it's so deep and and you can also view it as like how clear should things be in movies but I guess you know I don't fall any particular place there but I didn't notice that the first five or six times I watched it. I mean,

same. I was taking it pretty much at face value in terms of like the hotels haunted. As someone who's watched it 15 times, half of the things you said, I never considered. Not even once. So it's nice.

How, I mean that, that's like a more existential artiste question we'll have to ask. And we also might be giving because we're doing this like feminist read of it maybe we're giving everything too much credit like i don't really know i'm very like leery to give stanley kubrick kubrick credit too much i'm but it seems like at least a little is owed here but i would also say that diane johnson was there was yeah like she and she um has a pretty good track record with like um she'd written a number of like

feminist novels prior to this so there's that and and and it's like in the dna of stephen king's story that she's triumphant and a lot of the metaphors were like in the book yeah so i'm gonna just not hand it to kubrick sure and hand it to the other two people um but yeah i think it is like very and the performance like deserves a lot of credit too because it was like god it was incredible i don't i think it's absolutely it was not necessary to abuse her to get that performance no she's given a number of performances but um yeah shelly devol kills it yeah that said though there were moments where i'm like the way like she's running with a knife kind of flailing it around and it kind of it i don't know it just read to me as like a come on can't can't she be a little i don't like i don't

even know what i'm well that's what i'm it's hard it's hard yeah because well then i i like sat down and thought about i was like no like she has been emotionally abused the whole time we've seen them interact on screen together he's being abusive so like you know i'm like she's holding that bat so stupidly but then also like if i you know if any of us were like yeah i wouldn't have perfect form right like i would be so scared that i couldn't do anything even not scared i can't hold a fucking bat what are you talking about it would have been like i mean and it would have been cathartic to see her be like dope with weapons but i feel like that would have been like a mary sue move right because given what we know about her life the fact that she hasn't really been allowed to have ambitions or hobbies that we know of outside of being a wife

and a mother it doesn't make sense right exactly and i did softball on the weekends and they're that see if they had been like well maybe if you weren't softballing so much, then I would have been pissed about the bat thing. Right. Yeah. So I think we've been trained as movie watchers to see these strong female protagonists who are actually criminally underwritten. And when they suddenly, against all odds, manage to kick someone's's ass even if it doesn't make sense for their character we're like but we're like woohoo a woman being triumphant yay we love to see it but in a lot of cases it it wouldn't have actually happened that way yeah i was and that's

like something that even in the time we've been doing this podcast i'm like oh i never i didn't always think of it that way yeah Yeah, same. Growing with age. Incredible. We've got to take another quick break, but we'll come back for more. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country

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for cosmic conversations, stellar laughs, and super corny dad jokes. Listen to In Our Own World as a part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't worry, we promise to avoid any black holes. Most of the time. Yeah, did you have anything else to say about Wendy specifically? So in addition to being, you know, abused and gaslit by Jack, there is a brief moment where she's kind of lied to and gaslit by Mr. Halloran. It's not as nefarious, but it's the scene where. Careful, Halloran Stan over here.

Oh, sure, sure, sure. He keeps calling Danny Doc. And she's like like how did you know we call him doc and he's like oh i don't know i probably just heard you say it and wendy who is smart and resourceful and attentive is like well yeah we do call him that but i'm pretty sure i didn't say that in front of you and he was just like i don't know though maybe he did she calls him on it and, I don't know, though. Maybe he did. She calls him on it. And then, I don't know. I'm Halloran Hive over here. She, yes. I don't think that's like explicit.

Yeah, I didn't have a big problem with it. But it just kind of like. And we found out right after why. Right. He's like, do you want some ice cream? And then we found out immediately. Right. Because otherwise, he's sitting Wendy down being like, well, here's the's the thing i'm psychic i know it doesn't make sense your son's

also psychic tony is real like his options are limited in that moment for sure yeah it didn't it didn't really bother me but i was like oh wow every man in this movie is lying to wendy cool yes uh but since we're talking about mr hallororan,'t think that it was handled especially well starting with the whole i mean part of what is distracting from the metaphor of the cycle of abuse and addiction and all that is the throwaway mention that it's built on a quote-unquote indian burial ground yes which from what we can tell has literally it's built on a quote-unquote Indian burial ground. Yes. Which, from what we can tell, has literally... It's just to make it seem like, oh, the hotel is haunted. Right.

But the haunting has nothing to do with Native Americans. No, it's not even a little bit. Right. There's also the line, per the movie, built on an Indian burial ground, and the builders had to repel a few Indian attacks as they were building it. I don't know how common of a thing this is in Stephen King books, but I'm pretty sure it also is the case for Pet Sematary, where that was another indigenous burial ground and then when you bury your you know children in it they'll come back as you know

scary possessed children um so as scary cats that's exactly i haven't seen the movie is that right it's sick in the head which goes without saying perpetuates negative ideas about indigenous people and cultures and just kind of an altogether disregard for what that means at all like i think that it's like i i would wager to guess that stephen king gave very little consideration and was i mean and and he sort of does this with mr halloran as well of just attributing magic to non-white people and as a plot device right um and I think that Mr. Halloran is treated in much the same way right yeah I think he could very easily fall into like the magical negro stereotype trope that exists in lots of fiction it's still a prevalent trope today they're uh they're for everyone who's seen both seasons of big little lies there was a major issue with that

trope on big little lies two months ago so it is not something that um i mean it's more likely to be identified and called out now but it still gets signed off on by a lot of people. Yeah, I think that that definitely is. The one thing that is at least is like the narrative function works where he and Danny need to communicate for the plot to work. But we know nothing else about him other than he's psychic. He knows about the shining. He sort of almost seems to exist out of time. Right.

He has a lot of naked posters in his bedroom. Right, which is a weird joke. Yeah. Because the movie very deliberately frames it so that you can see these posters. On both walls. Maybe that's commentary about something. I can't wrap my head around that one.

Couldn't, but we don't know. We don't know. The Halloran Hive, we're okay with it, but it's like he's whatever. I don't know. But I do think that the movie's explicit choice to kill him off is also a very tropey horror thing because that doesn't happen in the books and there's such

a like well-tracked record of i mean like a black person being the first to die oh yes in a horror movie and mr halloran is the only person who the only innocent person right who dies right right even though he's basically like like, he and Wendy together are the heroes of the story, and they manage to save Danny, and then... He still fucking... Why couldn't Kubrick

let him move to Maine? Like he does in the book. Right. The Halloran Hive has spoken. Yeah. Was he written in the book, Corey, as black? Yes.

Do you remember? Okay. So at least they didn't, I guess, whitewash that character but even so killing him off was a mistake we also should talk about the scene in which jack and mr grady who is like acting as kind of like a butlery type of person in the bathroom yeah and the n-word gets dropped several times by both of them and mr gr. Grady is basically saying like, hey, Jack, keep an eye on that family of yours because they're being troublesome. And also your son, he's got this talent and he's using it to try to bring in an outside party.

And then they start talking about Mr. Halloran. And they drop the N-word. The slurs. They do, yeah. Mr. Halloran and they drop the n-word the slurs they do yeah which I think is the characters being racist and not the movie being racist but also 1980 it's hard to know it's a very fine line with that one I don't think that I mean I don't know I see what you're saying though because I don't think that they would have had Wendy say that definitely not I don't think but I I don't know 1980 it's it's hard to know hard to know yeah um but I think because those characters are framed as they are both

axe murderers axe murderers yes so they're like they're framed as being uh horribly racist and horribly misogynist because again Mr. Grady's like yeah my wife was causing problems and so were my daughters so i killed them because i hate women and also uh i hate the women in your family jack so you should probably kill her too it's harder yeah it's harder i mean it's hard no matter what yeah but in the movie i feel like it sucks more because then the only black character in the movie has such an abrupt end that wasn't intended for them so i feel like it yeah but yeah so i mean again it's like kubrick does not handle race well in this movie yeah and if there's if there's anything uh we missed please uh let us know again three white ladies in a room um something that i wanted to talk a little bit

about danny and how the read of the this movie that we've been discussing i don't know like it it hit for me like kind of different this time thank you so much uh i was trying to like work my way around not saying that and then I just ended up there anyways. Put it in the cordon bag and it's gold. It's good. But when you're watching it as a little boy who is dealing with an addicted parent versus a little boy who's dealing with a ghost hotel, that one long scene with him and Jack Nicholson is so scary.

Oh, my God. When he's sitting on his lap. Horrifying. Yes. Yeah. And that kid actor, he retired. He is now a biology professor in Kentucky. No kidding.

Danny Lloyd. Yeah, had the good sense to get out of this town. Professor Lloyd. Professor Lloyd to you, had the good sense to get out of this town. Professor Lloyd. Professor Lloyd to you. Incredible. So good for him. But he does, he gives a great performance

in this movie and like that scene especially of just the way that an addict parent talks to their children and you can tell, I mean, Jack is kind of already

pretty far gone by the time that scene happens because he's just staring at himself in the mirror when Danny gets there it's a metaphor uh but just the way that he tries to reassure Danny that nothing's going to happen to him yeah and you can tell that Danny wants to believe that but also he knows that it's not heartbreaking right yeah because it's really heartbreaking you know because of three years ago and so that scene especially like i watched it twice this time because it was just like oh like when when you're when you're not thinking of it as just like oh haunted hotel movie it's like heartbreaking for that kid and soul crushing and you can feel it inside of you

it's really crazy i mean i can't i'm just like oh okay yeah maybe that's my own shit but damn heartbreaking no same i was just like oh fuck like okay we get it please get us over do i call my dad oh my gosh that scene cuts away before we see like danny getting up off his lap and leaving so i my theory is that that's when jack jack chokes chokes and there's no doubt yeah yeah there's an absolutely no that's when Jack chokes him. Chokes him. There's no doubt. Yeah. Yeah. There's absolutely no. That's the thing.

It's like, yeah, there's no. A ghost did not choke Danny. No. Which is why I am, while understanding and empathizing with her role in this very abusive relationship, I'm frustrated when, you know, that she would even think like, like oh there's some lady here who choked him when my husband with a track record of hurting my son is just here like i don't know he did it to himself i and i understand the dynamic of self-preservation but it's like right oh yeah it's hard to watch it's so fucking hard to watch it's really hard to watch uh but i mean i guess that just means that they're doing a good job but it was it was hard that's also why the scene where she sees the furry giving a blow

job really bugs me because it's like well that kind of like pokes a hole in the metaphors that i feel like the you know movie and narrative are trying to she see ghosts in the book yeah but just not a furry not a furry that's interesting that's like i i want because i thought i also don't think it says like extreme like the like like every like i feel like the whole haunting actual haunting part isn't as extreme extreme in the book yeah i don't know i mean i i think it is is an interesting choice that she also starts to see things. Here's my galaxy brain read of it. I feel like if we're going with the ghosts are a metaphor for being in a family unit with an addict who refuses to get help. That it is contagious in the way it affects people.

Because I don't even think jack isn't even the first person to see a ghost i see i see right danny is the first person to see ghosts because he is the most he's the most physically affected he's he's shining um but he's like the most he's been the most directly traumatized by it and has as a child yeah and has like the fewest coping mechanisms and so like him seeing a ghost first makes sense plus children do see ghosts because they are more susceptible to it in general children are just more susceptible you can read it there's studies on it anyway so yeah i i mean obviously it is our halloween episode i think we should just say right off the bat uh ghosts exist, obviously.

There are studies on it. I was talking about it in the car last night, and we were like, clearly. But for the sake of this story, yeah, like, I think the ghost is a metaphor for how addiction affects everyone in a unit. And I also think it makes sense that Wendy sees it last because she is the one who is trying the hardest not to see it um but then she sees it at the end so brilliant I don't mean even a sarcastic way I was so smart but I but so why she sees a furry I'm like that's maybe a her thing we don't know yeah why are we shaming tonight because it's like we are seeing like all the ghosts are

I don't think anyone's thinking about it we are seeing like all the ghosts are. I don't think anyone's thinking about it this hard. But like all the ghosts do seem to appear specific to the person they're appearing to. Danny sees other kids because that's what he'll be most receptive to. Right. Jack sees hot lady because he's a horny idiot. Wendy sees a furry giving a blowjob. Because that's what she's Wendy's thing. So maybe they are giving background information about her.

Maybe we do learn something about her other than she's a wife and a mother. Or the little freak bitch. She's a wife, she's a mother, she's a freak bitch. She's a furry. Wendy Torrance, wife, mother, furry. That was on her gravestone. Closet furry, there's a difference. Well, the other thing, too, is that uh like women children are often not believed so the fact that like you know danny's seeing things and for him to be like i was strangled and like everyone's kind of making excuses and trying to

justify okay well who did this to him and what's happening? And there's like so much ambiguity around it, I think is telling of the fact that like children have a tendency to not be believed. Another thing I wanted to talk about briefly is there is a tendency in, I would say, especially horror movies. And it's often like the final girl that ends up this being the case for or just mostly any female character but when she has to put up a fight or defend herself this potentially will sound victim blaming so i just want to acknowledge that right off the bat but there's also a tendency working things out in real time yeah working things out in real time well here's what i'll say when especially a female character in a movie has an opportunity to kind of get back at her attacker maybe like somehow they got knocked unconscious or they're um or they're spooky leave it in or they're like incapacitated in some way. Like this just happened in that movie Ready or Not, which I did watch and did thoroughly enjoy.

But there's a few different moments where the female protagonist of that movie has an opportunity to like kill someone who is trying to kill her by either like running them over with a car or like shooting them with a gun or like doing something with some weapon that she has at her disposal and she doesn't do that and then instead like she's just like I'm just gonna get away and because she didn't kill that person that person gets back up and then tries to kill her some more. The ending of the second strangers is what got to yeah

do they do it all the time but the ending of that one I was like Jesus fucking Christ okay. But I would argue for Wendy in this one where she from what we know and we don't know enough about her which is like a central kubrick king whatever everyone's fault everyone's fault i'm not saying kubrick's a king i'm sorry i meant steven king kubrick my king uh that from what we know she has been kind of societally and personally forced to define herself by this man for let's just say her entire adult life sure right and so i i understand her

reticence to murder him also we know that no one's going to believe her well so my point was going to be that i like that she first she bonks him over the head, knocking him unconscious. And then I think in other movies. Thank you for that sound effect. I think in other movies, she just would have like left him there on the landing of the stairs and then like just tried to do something. But the fact that she then drags him and locks him in a room that he can't get out of, even though he somehow did. Like, I really like that and then when he is chopping down the door later the fact that she like stabs him in the hand i was like go wendy yes like he's trying to kill you try to kill him back it seems like strategic

too where like it's clear she doesn't want to kill him right and it's clear that like in a lot of abusive relationships she has some love for him right of course even though she knows he's a monster and so it's i i kind of like that it's like she doesn't want to kill him she's doing what she needs to do to protect herself and her son and she's she's like if that means locking you in here and then having someone come back and arrest you great right yeah you know and so yeah can we talk about the use of the naked ladies yes so i i mean i think that this is like one of the more obvious glaring like come on things where i mean i guess given what we know about jack it's not super surprising that he's

a lecherous creep right right because he's clearly not interested in self-improvement or people's boundaries so i'm not even really commenting on that as much as just the way that the movie seems to feel about like stanley kubrick has a pretty well documented history of like women as props yeah so does all movies um but this is like pretty pretty aggressively you know where we see the young woman versus the old woman and it's very much like oh the young woman is hot silent horny yes Yes. Right? We don't need to know anything about her. No.

And then the second you see, like, an old woman, it's complete body horror. Grotesque. To be completely fair, she is rotting. But besides that, I get where you're coming from on all ends. But she is rotting. But I feel like that's, like, couched in some shit. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of, like, how people view older women.

Older women are rarely shown on screen as hot. Or people. Or at all. Right. First of all, at all. And if they are there, certainly not like viable romantic people. This is a plug for Grace and Frankie. This is for Gloria.

I love. Oh, yeah. This is a Gloria ad. But yeah, I mean her gloria i love oh yeah this is a gloria ad uh but yeah i mean watch grace and frankie to see sexy hot older women getting fucked all the time but but yeah i mean i just like i mean that's i think one of the more obvious critiques of this movie but like come, come on. Right. Yeah. I think that's all I had. Did anyone have any other thoughts about the film?

I wish. I had. Does it pass the Bechdel test? No. Not even a little bit. I was considering him. And then after you guys spoke. Yeah. No,

absolutely not. The only scene where two female characters talk at all is when the two Grady twins ask Danny if they want to play with him right oh and I wanted to mention that that is and he like it wasn't like a steal it was a borrow but Kubrick took that image from a diane arbis photo who's like a famous feminist photographer very pro lgbtq plus photographer and he saw like a picture she took of uh twins and like that direct image uh is in the movie interesting so arbis representation and it was and it wasn't even and it wasn't like I'll give Cooper credit of like he attributed that to her.

So that's fun. If only we had known about their interests. Their names. What are their names? They like to play and they like to wear the same dress. So we already know more about them than we do about Wendy. So yeah. So

yes, does not pass the Bechdel test let's rate it on our nipple scale 0 to 5 nipples based on its representation of women this is really hard because on one hand I don't know how harsh you guys judge

it nipple wise we're pretty harsh I want to say like one I want to go two n, but then I feel like you guys are like one nip. No, I was going to go. One of my two nips is your guys' one nip, in my opinion, in my head. I was honestly going to go two, two and a half. Yeah. I think I'm going to go two on this one.

And that with the kind of, I think, probably keeping in mind that we're giving the movie maybe a little bit too much credit. Sure. Based on the read that we have talked about today. Chosen to take. Based on the revisionist history we have put upon it. But no, I mean, I think that like, I think that a lot of the criticism leveraged against Wendy's character even like five or six years ago wasn't taking into consideration the dynamics of the relationship and that it she's clearly a victim in this relationship and it's super clear that she needs to you know survive without help she's

not believed I think that there's there's like more than some critics of her character are giving it credit for. And if you think about it, most of her decisions for me make sense inside of the fucking nightmare that she's, it's Aristotle. So I think that especially for, and also this is the second Stephen King story we've covered on this we covered Carrie all right um and I think that he deals with this uh female character far better than he treats Carrie yes um and so in terms of I mean even growth of uh of I'm always pleasantly surprised

when a man manages to write a female character thoughtfully at all uh and i don't agree with a lot of kubrick's adaptations i agree with none of the ways that he like treated his performers but on the strength of wendy being like a very tragic but ultimately victorious example of a woman in an abusive relationship it gets two two nipples from me, and I'm giving them to Mr. Halloran. Very good. Twist. Who lives in my version. Yes.

And the canonical version. Jesus Christ. There's a line in the movie that Mr. Grady says, telling Jack, after he's been locked in the pantry, Mr. Grady is like, that wife of yours is stronger than we thought she seems resourceful so he even even the axe murderer acknowledges her strength and her power um so yes he's an icon the the lens through which i chose to watch the movie this time in terms of it being a story about Wendy, you know, struggling through this abusive relationship and trying to save herself and her son.

That read lends itself, I think, yeah, like a two and a half nipple rating, because even so, we still don't really know anything about her character and it's a long movie it's the version i watch is two hours long although according to there's a two and a half hour two and a half hour version have to say i think i watched that one on accident oh really someone has no attention span that's a long so there's a there's time to get to know her a little bit better anything outside of her role as a wife and a mother and as well as the way this movie treats

other cultures, races, etc it's universally bad but the fact that we do see her I mean in the context of this story we do see her being the one who's like taking care of the upkeep of the hotel she like knows how to use a radio i don't fucking know how to use a radio i don't know how to check a boiler that speaks more to you right but i'm saying like she she knows how to do this stuff all the emotional labor of like handling her husband's responsibilities and then

also being pretty much the sole caregiver of their son and all that all this different stuff and the fact that she does like fight back and she is triumphant in the end i do enjoy uh but i also think the movie is far more interested in showing us jack's mental unraveling than it is showing us anything about Wendy's character because there are long stretches of time where we don't see Wendy at all and the movie is just overall far more focused on Jack so yeah we can we can do better on a 2019 version of a story like this I'm interested well I'm interested also in seeing how the uh doctor sleep doctor starring who does it who's the actor in that movie jamie ewan mcgregor ewan mcgregor you ewan ewan i said ewan kill me i i'm interested in seeing it

and how it deals with uh trauma like how it deals with trauma in an adult from childhood yes indeed wow okay so two and a half nipples i'm gonna give uh two to wendy and then uh my half nipple is split between the grady twins brave and gross cory two two nipples who are you giving them to? one to Wendy and one to Danny Danny for having to deal with any of that bullshit Corey thank you so much for being here thank you for having someone like me

on this you have been so hard on yourself I have sciatica I had to deal with that today I'm in a bad mood for my sciatica no I had to deal with that today. Okay. So I'm in a bad mood. I'm in a bad mood for my sciatica. No, I'm in a good mood

and I'm really happy to be here. I'm just saying. We love you. It's gotten so dark in this room. Yes. Scary. Corey, what would you like to plug and where can people find you online?

You can find me online on Twitter at Corey T. Johnson because obviously Corey Johnson was taken and the T stands for Taylor. I guess that's all I have. Okay.

Yeah, Corey has a great Twitter. you can follow us at bechtel cast on all the social media places you can subscribe to our patreon aka matreon it's five dollars a month and it gets you two bonus episodes every month that's at patreon.com slash bechtelcast you can go to our merch store tpublic.com slash the bechtelcast and uh hey it's not too late to get your feminist icon beetlejuice t-shirt you can get your wet scabs and dry scabs t-shirts as well uh to sport all year round. And then get out there and don't do all work and no play. Give yourself some play. Don't be a dull person. Absolutely not. Okay, bye.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who, on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself?

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