The Bechdel Cast - The Substance

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

This week, Jamie and Caitlin are one. Will they respect the balance? Find out on this episode about The Substance! Here's the Making-Of Featurette we mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H64HNvXrqU See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast Start changing it with the Bechdel cast Jamie, there is no you and me We are one Who popped out of whose back? That's up to you

Yeah, who's the Matrix and who's the other self? Depends on the day. Listeners? Depends on the day. Sound off in the comments. Well, it's the substance episode. It's true. I'm very excited.

Here we are, the movie that launched 1,000 takes. And here's ours. Here's ours's our like it. It's fun. My proposed intro is going to be the French. Like the Orson Welles commercial member. Oh no, I don't remember that. Okay. Well, it's I swear sound off in the comments if you remember that and thought it was funny. Anyways, yes, we are covering the substance. This is the Bechtel cast. We are lining this up to come out right around the Oscars. Yes.

However, we are recording it in early February. The episode will come out like a month later after the Oscars. So we're not sure. So we don't know how they did. We don't know how they did. We just know how we feel. We know how we feel. But it is nominated for Academy Awards for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, Best Actress for Demi Moore, and Best Makeup and Hairstyling. So I'm thrilled about this. It all makes sense. I am just like I'm so happy that weird movies are being Dominated for Oscars in recent years. I feel like you have your kind of typical

I'm gonna just throw a random person under the bus I guess like most people who win for biopics to be perfectly honest like that's an Oscar baby performance if you do a good job and you're of note enough, especially if you look a little weird. And I mean a little weird, or just not conventionally attractive. But that is simply not what Demi Moore is, I mean, it's what she's doing to such an extreme that I feel like this is not an Oscar-baity,

this is about as far from an Oscar-baity performance as you could get because this movie could have been so bad. True. I feel like in the wrong hands, or really just like a male director, this movie could have been like comically bad, and I think bad for Demi Moore's career.

I'm glad that that's not the way it went. Anyways, I love this movie. Yeah, so Jamie, what's your relationship with it? Did you see it in theaters? Google the Bechdel test, Google the Bechtel test. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that part of the show. If you don't know what the Bechtel test is, you have no business listening to our takes on the substance. Fair.

Go back to second grade, okay? I saw the substance in theaters twice. I rewatched it with a Bechdel lens, which is, I would say a very different, I guess it is a very different experience, but not in a way that like made me feel less enthusiastic about the movie, I guess. But I was just like looking at different aspects of it came out because I really enjoyed Coralie Farge's first movie, Revenge, which is I think it's a French language film that came out I think in 2017. That sounds right. And I watched it with my friend Sarah when we were high on mushrooms in a hotel room in Montreal. So we were like, let's watch something French. And we watched Revenge. And it is like, it's a very different movie from The Substance. And I want to talk about

how the ways I feel like those movies are in conversation with each other. Because Revenge is, you know, the rape revenge genre, I think is like very fraught with being more interested in rape than revenge. That's not an original observation. But revenge is literally just, I mean, that is what the revenge is in response to. But the movie is 99.9% revenge. Okay, sounds like something that we should cover for revenge burr on the matriarch. We really should. Yeah. It's a good contribution to that genre. And I feel like it's sort of saying something about like external violence towards women. And then this movie is more like self-inflicted violence.

Anyways, I really enjoyed this movie. The thing I wanted to say was the first time I saw it was the night it came out. And I know a lot of people who have seen this movie, especially early, I think you did too, like had the experience of just like, it was a wild theatrical experience because no one knew what was going to happen. Everyone was like, Oh my God, like, and there's a lot of laughter because it's a funny movie. But I will say that I went with my boyfriend now fiancee My fiancee I do all the time. Yes. He is yes and as my wife in practice

If not yet by law you will honor me Yeah, he's always saying that is that he says that to you every day. I'm always like the aggressive guy that. Is that true? He says that to you every day. I'm always like, he's an aggressive guy. No, so we saw it together. The audience, I will say, was more men than not. And there were fun aspects of it. Like the movie is so gross, which I love because I am squeamish, but I love gross movies. There was a guy, you know, I think like a stereotypically, like masculine looking, like muscular guy who got up and left three different times, but kept coming back where he left during the shrimp scene. Truly one of the grossest scenes in the movie, I think. That was like a sub movie I was really enjoying because he like clearly really wanted to finish the movie. But the movie does not let up and getting grosser and he was just, he was struggling.

I get it. But when we were talking about the movie afterwards, I was trying to like articulate a feeling I was having about like, I loved the movie. I get this, I mean, it's like, I don't know, everyone gets this way about movies. It's maybe a little immature, but sometimes I'm like, I understood it. And those guys did it.

But I did feel like there were moments that elicited laughter in the movie that really felt bad and frustrating to me, especially when it's, I felt like this movie to me, you're like laughing almost with the characters because you can somehow relate to, even though this is not something you would or could do to yourself, it feels like a nightmare you would have about your sort of worst intentions towards yourself But I feel like there was a portion of that audience that was laughing at her and not with her and I I don't know Like I can't describe quite how but I do wonder if there's listeners You just know you know when someone's laughing for the wrong reason

You know when a guy says they liked the substance for the wrong reason, you could just feel it. And I was trying to articulate this to Grant and like, he mostly got it, but it's also like men don't really need to contend with that feeling very much because I love body horror. And I love body horror movies made by women. This is no exception. But it just felt like there were a lot of people who left that movie and they're like, I love that. But they were laughing at her more often than empathizing with her. And I don't necessarily, I mean, I know you could argue, well, that's the director's fault. I don't think so.

I think a lot of the negative takes about this movie is people expecting too much of one movie. Sorry, I'm already babbling. What was your experience of seeing it? I too saw it in theaters twice early on. I don't know if I saw it opening night. I truly don't have a memory anymore. You went opening weekend at least. Yeah.

Because we talked about it shortly after. Right. The first movie going experience with it was a raucous good time. I mean, it was really fun. But I was also in a theater where I was like, some of these people, some of these men, they're not laughing for the right reasons. They're not laughing at the right parts or, you know. Right. But I didn't let that deter me from having a great time.

I loved it. Nor should it. Nor should it. And then I saw it again maybe like a month later. It was in theaters for quite some time. It's still in theaters. And now it's back in theaters. Oh yeah, after the nominations.

Mm-hmm. So I saw it like a month or a month and a half later. I dressed up as Elizabeth for Halloween. I saw it a third time during a horror movie marathon in October. So like, I've seen it a few times now. And each time I've watched it, I've had a slightly different viewing experience. I haven't had really different feelings on it. I feel like my, my takes and thoughts are still processing, I will say. And I think I'll maybe feel differently about this movie in a year, in five years.

Right. Which is why we don't usually cover movies right when they come out. But this movie is so begging to be covered on this show that it's like, well, we can recover it later if our feelings change. True. Yeah, give us five years. We might hate our original take and we'll just redo it. But yeah, I very much enjoy this movie. It was probably, if not my favorite movie of 2024 in the top three. I had a great time and I'm excited to discuss. Me too.

Oh, I'm excited for you to see Revenge too. I'm curious what you think. Yeah, it's on my list. Let's just do a Revenge burr in, I don't know, March. Whenever we feel like it really. That's the beauty. That's our revenge is our blatant disregard for months. Exactly. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Yeah. September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars, in just five hours. Okay, we're rolling.

One, two, three, four. I'm Jamie Petrus, music and culture writer. For the past five years, I've been talking to the band's three surviving members. They're out of prison now and in their 70s. Their past behind them. But they also have some unfinished business. The end of their break, eyes of love, was supposed to have been followed up by another album. of love was supposed to have been followed up by another app.

It's a story about the liberating power of music, the American justice system, and ultimately second chances. Listen to Soul Incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke, or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class, and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? impulses, but everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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and I hope that you can join me. Listen to Cheekies and Chill, Season Four, as part of the My Kultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. All right. Here is the recap of the substance.

Oh, I wonder if this is a weirdly quick recap. It is actually kind of long because it's a long movie. It's two hours and 20 minutes. That is my one complaint about the movie. It's a bit longer than I think it needs to be. Yeah, I'm like, but I wouldn't, I don't know what I would cut necessarily. Anyways, I wouldn't cut scenes, like whole scenes or anything like that.

I would just like shave some of the stuff down. We see like repetitive information that I think we could just like trim a bit. Sure. Anyway, we open on an egg that is injected with a dare I say Shrek colored liquid. It is Shrekian and I which leads to the question, has Coralie Franchot seen Shrek? And honestly, I bet she has. I wonder I wonder if she I don't know, I've watched a lot of interviews with her.

And maybe it's just because I find French people hard to read. They're mysterious. Yes, they are. And I mean, listen, Julia Ducarno and Coralie Franchette, like two of my absolute favorites. I'm just like, would they watch Shrek? I don't know. We got to go to a Q&A and really disrespect the artist by asking an unrelated question. Have you seen Shrek?

I think we should just have Coralie on the podcast and ask her there. She's so cool. Yeah, well she's our biggest fan probably, so it shouldn't be that hard. And I read in an interview with her that she grew up on a diet of American movies So I think it is very possible that she has seen Shrek. Oh my god. I hope she saw it in theaters Anyway, sorry Anyways, so there is this lime green Substance the titular substance

I've ever heard of it that is injected into the yolk of an egg and then the yolk multiplies and becomes two yolks. I said that word really weird, yolks. You hit the L. I mean, there is an L in it. Yeah. Anyway. I thought you did great. So thank you so much. Then we see a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in Hollywood, California.

Ever heard of it? It's being made for Elizabeth Sparkle. She is a popular star at the beginning of her career, but as the years pass, we see excitement about her dwindle. Then we finally meet Elizabeth Sparkle on screen. She's of course played by Demi Moore She currently hosts a kind of like 90s style fitness slash aerobics TV show It reminds me a lot of like as someone who did the Jane Fonda workout every single day of lockdown

I think that was yeah, like the 80s 90s kind of vibe Yeah So the show's called Sparkle your life. And after the show, she goes into the restroom where she overhears her head of the network boss, Harvey, played by Dennis Quaid. Who I was just like, what are we doing? And also like, why does he do a good job? Is it because he's so familiar with being diabolical? But I did want to say I found out in an interview, I don't know if you saw this, that the part was originally going to be for Ray Liotta. And then he died. So that I was like, all right, as long as he wasn't the first pick, I guess.

Yeah. But Dennis Quaid, despite him being a person with a very bad politics, does a really great job as this character. He's a really great despicable piece of shit. And that's just his performance in Reagan. Am I right, ladies? Anyway, so he's a very loud, obnoxious misogynist. And Elizabeth overhears him saying that he is canceling Elizabeth's show and replacing her with someone younger. Elizabeth is obviously very upset about this. There's also the scene where Harvey is eating

shrimp very grotesquely. And like the fisheye lens that they use, it's so yucky. I love it. I also really liked, I don't know, just like watching it again and looking at the way that I also really liked, I don't know, just like watching it again and looking at the way that he talks to her like, well, you knew this was going to happen. I don't know. I just, I appreciated like that choice of like, well, I'm not, you know, first of all, he doesn't care how she feels. But also I think he does believe that she assumed this was going to happen to her. Right.

Because he says something like, after 50, it just stops. Meaning like, once you turn 50 years old as a woman, my ability to give a shit about you stops. She's like, what stops? And he cannot articulate at all what he means. It. Yeah, I mean, it's great. Yeah.

So she learns that she's getting fired. On her way home, Elizabeth gets into a car accident. So she goes to the doctor and there a young physician examines her and says that she's a good candidate. For what, we wonder. Turns out he had slipped something in her pocket, a flash drive labeled the substance. And he says, it changed my life. Yeah, there's a little note. Then a man named Fred, like jump scare approaches her on the sidewalk. This is someone she knew from high school. And he's like, Oh my gosh, you're the most beautiful woman in the world. And you're still beautiful.

We should go out for a drink sometime. And she's like... I think that this does capture a jump scare person from high school feeling very well. Yes. But anyway, she's like, mmm, yeah, no thank you. And then she goes home to see what's on the flash drive. It's basically a commercial for the substance,

something that will make you younger and more beautiful and more perfect. But there's just one rule. You must respect the balance. Respect the balance. Seven days Demi Moore, seven days Mark Requally. It's like the ring. Seven days.

I thought that too. I was like opening scene of scary gross movie that warns you that you'll die in seven days if you fuck around. So the way this works is the substance takes your DNA and creates a new and quote unquote better version of yourself where you live life as your original self which they call the matrix for one week and then you swap with your younger other self and live as them for a week and you keep going back and forth week after week but the important thing to remember is that you are not separate

people there is no her and me. You are one. I thought it was interesting. And this isn't a criticism because this movie doesn't work unless you operate on kind of like symbolic dream logic, but that they could not like even though they are technically one person, they don't share memories. Like they have to piece together what the other did. So I, to this day, I'm not clear on that exactly.

Because the movie, it is easy for the audience to forget that they are the same person, partly because we see them as two different people on screen, like two different actors. They're visibly different. But also, they routinely forget that they are the same person because the substance hotline guy has to always remind them, there's no her and you. That little meddling sicko at Substance HQ. So I think there's definitely a

read where they don't share memories and they have to like figure out what the other one has been up to. But I think there's also a read where they are sharing memories and it's just that they're resenting each other's choices so much that it just seems like they're... Oh! Yeah, that was my read of it at least. I guess I viewed it as like because these are two different parts of Elizabeth that she is so out of touch with herself and so uncomfortable in herself that like, she can't get these like two parts of her to communicate because of that disagreement.

Either way, it explains away this problem. Right, right. I don't even think it's a problem. It feels intentional. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I agree that they're so out of sync, but that's why it seems like they don't share memories. But that they actually do.

I don't know. Again, you could read it, I think, both ways. I think both definitely work. I had all of these alternate pitches of like, what if the substance was like this? In the version where the substance is a very gentle, sweet story of love and friendship, they would be writing each other these beautiful letters for the other to read.

Like, a letter to my younger self, by la la la la la. And then she'd be like, dear, it would be kind of like, I haven't seen my old ass, but it feels like that. Oh, sure. I did see my old ass it would be kind of like, I haven't seen my old ass, but it feels like that. Oh, sure. I did see my old ass.

It is kind of like that, although they're on screen together interacting throughout that movie. Right. But if they're writing letters to each other, that's kind of like the movie, The Lake House. I love the movie, The Lake House. I did, yeah, it's like mother daughter lake house or like younger self, older self lake house.

Obviously this is not that movie. I also was like I had a theory that I posted to letterboxd.com. Give me a follow over there. Jamie alert is my username. And while you're at it give me a follow please. Hello. So my my theory after watching this stuff is for the third time. Okay, I'm just going to read it. Please. This movie is a Xanax nightmare that Elizabeth Sparkle has the day she's fired by Dennis Quaid over shrimp. She wakes up the next morning and starts applying to master's programs,

asking around about ghostwriters for her memoir and looking up the prices of ranches in upstate New York. She lives another 35 years and starts a terrible wine brand and a terrible podcast. She is sort of happy. That is, I think, the true ending. Because this whole movie, it just is like a nightmare. Or I read in a review from the White Pub, she said something like, it's like a game of The Sims being played by the most depressed person in the world.

Oh, wow. Where the spaces are weirdly vacant. There's nowhere to go. There's no one to talk to. It's weirdly aggressive. There's either too much food or no food at all. Like it just is like a really scary game of The Sims. And I like that reading. I love that reading too. My version of this movie would be when she's the older Demi Moore version. She just takes like week-long vacations every time it's like her turn to exist. Yeah.

And then she just like has a nice time on vacation for a week at a time. Go incognito mode. And then her younger self works and like... Yeah, brings home the bacon. Mm-hmm. But Sue, that disrespectful. Tell me about it. Anyways, we'll get to we'll get to Sue. We'll get there. Okay, so Elizabeth has watched

this commercial about the substance and she learns about what the deal is. And she is not interested at first, but then she changes her mind and calls the number on the flash drive. She places an order for the substance and she's given an address. In the mail she receives a key card with the number 503 on it. She heads to the address where there are like lockers. One is labeled 503 and inside is a starter kit for the substance. There's an activator fluid which says, single use, discard after use, which is important.

Ah! There's like stabilizer apparatus for the, quote unquote, other self to use. There is food for both the like original matrix and the other self. And the idea is that you activate once, you stabilize every day, and you switch every seven days. And remember, you are one. It's the best like little monkey paw situation in the world because you're like, okay, this would only work with someone who had a stable sense of self. But if you had a stable sense of self, you would never use the substance. So what are you going to do?

So Elizabeth goes to her open and she births Margaret Qualley. The whole audience is screaming, let's go, let's go, let's go. And this other self, she has a cute button nose, thick wavy locks, taut round buttocks. Yes, that is a quote from Shrek 2. Thank you so much. Well done. Well done. Well, well, it's because did you see that meme going around where it's comparing Shrek 2 with the substance? No. Let me show you. I'm going to text you right now. Thank you. Thank you. This is what friendship is all about. I did appreciate, I didn't know this, but that Margaret Qualley is wearing a lot of prosthetics to be Sue.

That is not her body. Oh, I didn't realize that either. Yeah, she's wearing chicken cutlets, the boobs are fake, the butt is fake, which I guess was a choice by both her and Coralie, where I know she like worked out a lot to be Sue, but like they physically altered. I think that they made slight alterations to her face just to like make her feel like

an uncanny version of herself. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we meet the other self played by Margaret Qualley. She sews up the original matrix self, aka Demi Moore. She puts the feeding tube in her and she has to remember to stabilize,

which requires the other self to extract some kind of body goo from Demi Moore's spine and inject it into the other self, or else she'll get like a bloody nose and she'll get all dizzy and sick. Once she stabilizes, the Margaret Qualley other self heads to a casting call for the new Elizabeth Sparkle and she nails the audition and lands the part because she is Elizabeth Sparkle, although she calls herself Sue. The network executive Harvey loves her because she's young.

Yep, and the way he talks to her is equally disgusting in a totally different way. For sure. He's like baby angel, mommy daughter, like, ugh. Yeah. Sue tells him that she can only tape the show every other week because she has to take care of her sick mother. And Harvey's like, no problem. You're young, so I'll bend over backwards for you. Right, and like that was not my experience as a woman in the workplace, but sure. They're like, no, work twice as hard. Yeah.

So Sue starts prepping for her fitness show, but before she knows it, her first week is up and she has to switch back to Elizabeth, who spends most of her week watching TV. She does go out though at one point to pick up her refill kit with more injectable food, goo and stabilizer containers. Cut to she's Sue again and you can tell that Sue thinks Elizabeth is kind of pathetic. She builds a secret room in her bathroom to like keep Elizabeth inside. I love that that is like somehow the most unrealistic thing that happens in the movie

is that Sue, Elizabeth both know how to build like a secret like panic room. It's great. Yeah. I'm on board. Where did those skills come from? But it's part of just like the, you know, very heightened reality thing. I really like this whole movie is just a bad dream.

Like it's, it makes sense. Yes. Then it's the first taping of the new fitness show of Suze called Pump It Up. And, oh, the booties are shaking, the hips are thrusting. But it is basically just hornier Elizabeth Sparkle because she is hornier Elizabeth Sparkle. Right. Sue goes out with her hot young friends. She brings home a hot young guy.

But oh no, it's time to switch back to Elizabeth. But rather than doing so when the time runs out, Sue extracts some extra stabilizer goo from Elizabeth to give herself a little bit of extra time so she can smooch this hot man. And she's on the cover of Vogue! And she's on the cover of Vogue! When they do switch back and Elizabeth wakes up she notices that one of her fingers is different. It's like gnarled and it looks much older. It's like a Snow White Witch finger. Yes, exactly. She panics and calls the substance hotline to see if it can be reversed, but it cannot. So Elizabeth blames Sue, but the guy, the substance hotline guy is like, remember there

is no her and you, you are one, respect the balance. The more you say that, the more I'm like, you are right, they must share each other's memories. I think they share consciousness, they share memories, they just like really resent the hell out of each other. Right, they just hate each other so much that they are like blind to each other's intentions or something. Or even at the end where, you know, Demi Moore is like, nah, I can't kill you because I hate myself.

And you're like, oh, yeah, it's true. But the guy on the other side of the substance hotline, he cracks me up. But he's such a little asshole. Where she's like, well, she's using too much of her time. And he's like, respect it, click. You're like, damn, okay's using too much of her time. And he's like, respect it, click. You're like, damn, okay. He's a bitch. Voiced by an actor named Jan Bean.

Well, he did great. He did a great job. Anyway, so he's like, respect the balance. So Elizabeth is furious. She's clearly starting to resent Sue. She goes to pick up another refill kit and bumps into an old man who she realizes is the older version of the young doctor who had told her about the substance originally. He kind of reminds her that the older versions

of themselves still deserve to exist, that they still matter. But she's very shaken up about this whole interaction. I mean, it is very scary. It's alarming, yeah. And she goes home and she calls that guy Fred, the one she knew from high school who said, you're the most beautiful woman in the whole wide world. And she asks if he wants to go out with

her and they plan a date for that night. But as Elizabeth is getting ready, she's clearly feeling very insecure. She's applying more and more makeup. She's fussing with her hair, maybe trying to look younger perhaps. There's a billboard of Sue that's very prominently displayed right outside her window. I love that. I also, because this movie was shot in like mostly France, that's all like a painting, which is cool. I mean, so many of the technical things about this movie are really awesome. Like the production design, the sound design,

the cinematography, all that stuff is like, just so incredible. Anyway, so this billboard is like taunting Elizabeth, and she ends up having a breakdown, and she bails on the date and stays home and like binge eats, cut to Sue at a taping of her fitness show and something weird happens. There's a big bulge that like temporarily pops out of her butt cheek. This scene is, was really fun to watch in an audience. But also like, again, just like the

nightmare quality of how they're like, wait, it's like it moves so slow. But I don't know. Obviously, Sue is not the more empathetic or sympathetic of the characters. But I felt so bad for her where they're like, oh, something looks weird. Let's put it up so everyone can see. And they're like, let's make it really slow frame by frame. And she's panicking. Nightmare. She goes to her dressing room and pulls a chicken drumstick out of her belly button. Awesome.

Horrifying. I have a belly button thing. Fetish. It's a fetish. No, I'm so grossed out by belly button things. Like the scene from The Matrix when they pull the bug out of his belly button. I cannot watch it to this day. It grosses me out so much.

Anyway, so that was a horrifying moment in the movie for me. Sue is, again, very frustrated with Elizabeth, and she thinks she's about to be fired from her show, but it turns out that Sue is actually so popular that they're having her host the network's New Year's Eve show. This is a huge opportunity. Which again, it's just like, right,

the New Year's Eve show that we all love. Exactly, she's basically Ryan Seacrest,acrest? Except Ryan Seacrest hosts something. It's so unclear what is supposed to happen at this show where they're like, there's dancers and there's Mark Requally. And you're like, that's all we know. And that's all we need to know. I never even thought about that. Oh, I couldn't stop thinking about it. Also, it's such a small audience. Like it really did feel, I know that you're not a David Lynch head, but that it just reminded me of like all of like the vacant theaters

that scary scenes in David Lynch movies take place in. We were like, why is this space so small? She's the most famous person in the world. What is the show? What like, why are people so excited about her when she can't? I mean, whatever. It's all hyper stylized, but it's just funny. Nicole Cote They built that entire set, so that's not a real theater. They built the theater set because they knew they were going to spray over 5,000 gallons of fake blood.

Bekkah Lund And Coralie Fargeot was holding the blood gun the whole time. She's like wearing that POV shot. It's like her wearing the helmet. We can link it in. There's like a half hour making of featurette that's on YouTube that you can see so many. Most of the POV shots are Coralie Fargeot with a helmet cam on.

Oh my gosh. Including the body horror shot where Margaret Qualley is in the elevator, like that's correlate, like it's just so cool. Hell yeah. Anyway, so the point is Sue is given this opportunity to host the huge New Year's Eve show that the network does. And Sue is not going to let Elizabeth screw it up. And she basically starts living as Sue

well past her allotted seven days. Sue does finally let them switch and let Elizabeth live for a while. But all of that extra time has taken a big toll on Elizabeth where basically half of her body is this like just old looking hagish for lack of a better term aesthetic. Yeah I mean it is like definitely pulling from like hag horror aesthetics. Right and there's lots to talk about there. Yeah. We'll get there but she doesn't like the way she looks and she calls the substance hotline

and the guy is like, well, do you want to stop? You can go back to being just you, although there's no reversing any of the effects that this experience has had. So because she can't reverse anything, she decides to keep going on with it. Elizabeth takes out the French cookbook that Harvey had given her as a parting gift when she got fired. And she starts cooking up a storm. And we get a hot dog moment, blood sausage. Oh, right. Because like, this is the grossest version of French cooking that you've ever seen on screen. This is no Julie and Julia. This is no the taste of things. It's like, what if all French cooking was mayonnaise and rotisserie chicken?

Whatever it is, it looks nasty as hell, but on purpose. Like it purposefully is like part of the horror and grotesqueness of the movie. This cooking scene is intercut with Sue guesting on a late night talk show, and she's being asked about Elizabeth Sparkle and she's like, I barely know who that is. Her show is so old fashioned.

Oh, me and my beauty secret? Definitely it's not the substance or anything like that. Being myself. I was like, I just try to be my authentic self. That really did hit because many such cases of that. I mean, that's like what the yeah, like what the whole beauty industry is predicated on. It's just like, oh, it's just be yourself and give us money for this thing. Or like celebrities who have had other enhancements pretending that they just use this tube that you can get for $50 at CVS.

Yeah, exactly. So we cut back to Sue. She decides that she's going to stay Sue for a very long time. And she extracts a shitload of stabilizer goo from Elizabeth's very infected spine. And this is the part where she lives as Sue for three full months. Yeah, she has like a,

she's in a long-term relationship by that time. Yeah, yes. And she's on top of the world. And the big New Year's Eve show is the next day, but when she goes to take out more stabilizer fluid from Elizabeth, it's all discolored and rotten. And she has no choice but to switch back to Elizabeth to generate more of this stabilizer fluid. When they switch and when Elizabeth wakes up, oh boy, she's like full hag mode. Again, I don't

know how else to say it, but she's bald. She's very like hunched over. Yeah. It's like, again, like a hyper stylized aging. For sure. Yes. Which is like, I'm interested to talk about that with you because I'm like, that's one thing where I'm like, I don't know how to feel about it. We'll talk about it. Same. We'll get there. But she calls the substance hotline once again And she says she wants to stop the experience so she is sent a termination kit and she

Kills or attempts to kill sue with a lethal injection but then she remembers all of her hopes and dreams of being a star and of being adored by fans and of being a star and of being adored by fans and she changes her mind and she wants to bring Sue back because she knows that she needs her to live out these dreams. So Elizabeth initiates the switch between them which does bring Sue back but now they're both awake at the same time which is the first time this has happened in the movie. Sue realizes that Elizabeth tried to terminate her, so she attacks Elizabeth. They scuffle for a while, and Sue really beats and bloodies the hell out of Elizabeth. Yeah. Just, I guess, to sell you on revenge, revenge is like that scene for an hour and a half.

Whoa. Okay. It's extremely violent. Yeah. Yeah. But it's mostly the young woman kicking the shit out of her oppressors. Mm hmm. Yes. That sounds cathartic. This was not cathartic to watch. No. It's very troubling and difficult because it's so violent and Sue is like trying to kill Elizabeth but she realizes she can't because they are one and she realizes she has to get ready for the New Year's Eve show so she goes to the studio but

Sue isn't feeling too great her teeth are falling out, her ear falls off, and she gets the idea, what if she substances herself because she now needs a newer and quote unquote better and more beautiful version of herself. So she goes back home and injects herself with the leftover activator fluid, you know, the stuff that you were only supposed to use once and throw away. I thought the first time I saw this movie that that would kill her and that would be it. I thought that that was how it was going to end. Got it. But that's not

That is not what happens. No, it's actually just the end of Act Two, which I did not see coming. LESLIE KENDRICK Right. So she injects herself with this fluid. She collapses. Her back splits open and she gives birth to a grotesque body horror combination of Elizabeth and Sue with like body parts all over the place. There are multiple faces and teeth and breasts. Called Monstro Eliza Sue. Yes. She puts her dress back on, the one that she's gonna wear for the show.

She makes a little mask for herself and she goes back to the TV studio and she steps on stage and everyone is like, Oh my gosh, what is that? And then she gives birth to a breast from a vagina that's on her head. And that's feminism. And they're flashing back to like all of these like cruel things that men have said to her and Sue throughout the movie where it's like, now everything's in the right place. Yes. I wasn't expecting that to like pay off really in any way.

But I was like, oh no, yeah, she's playing 5D chess. Yeah. Then you watch a titty fall out of a face pussy and you're like, woohoo. People start freaking out and they're screaming freak and monster. And then monstro Eliza Sue starts to come apart. Like literally, she's spraying blood all over the audience. This is the like 5,000 gallons of fake blood. It's like Carrie times a million there. Yes. Eventually, Elisa Sue makes her way out of the studio and onto the street,

where she kind of explodes. Although Elizabeth's face is still sort of intact and it's surrounded by like flesh and guts and it's able to sort of drag her face on to her Hollywood Walk of Fame star and then she kind of like imagines slash fantasizes about people cheering and praising her. It reminded me a little bit of, well, there is like a few sections of this movie that reminded me a little bit of the ending of Black Swan as well. Hmm. Where it's like, you know, I mean,

even though in Black Swan, unfortunately the main character has a little bit happier of an ending, you could argue, because she does this, you know, impossible accomplishment and it kills her. Elizabeth doesn't get what she wants and it kills her. But I feel like just that whole like gazing up at the sky and like, you know, thinking

it, it just felt like an I was perfect kind of moment. True. Wow. I was reminded and I have not seen the thing in a very long time, but there's a similar creature that's just like a bunch of body parts, just like a hunk of various body parts in different places. And it kind of reminded me of that creature. Just from like a visual standpoint. Anyway, so Elizabeth's face drags itself onto her Walk of Fame star and then she melts. Yeah.

And then the next day the like blood and goo is cleaned off and that is the end of the movie. So let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. ["The Daybreak"] September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars, in just five hours. Okay, we're rolling.

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I mean, there's so much to talk about here. I mean, I read a couple of them because this is a movie that launched a bajillion takes. There would be no way to consume them all. But I did enjoy, you know, like, particularly seeing women whose work and brains I admire trying to figure out why they either did or didn't like this movie, even when I disagreed. But I guess my curiosity,

because there were elements of this movie that like I as I was watching it the first time I was like there is a clear I think like ableist read of This movie in certain moments and I wasn't I wasn't able to find an essay or anything other than just like an observation About ableism so I can't really speak to that I'm also not the right person to speak to that, but I wanted to mention that. I guess, like, I've saw a lot of takes that were like, the movie is ageist, and I guess I just, like, don't agree with that.

And I think it's interesting, and I'm not, like, calling anyone specific person out, but most of the critics I saw calling this movie out as ageist were younger women, which I found interesting because I think that there is elements of this movie that I think if I saw this movie 10 years ago, I would have loved it and I probably would have thought it's a little ageist. But after like especially listening to interviews with Coralie Fargeau, she is trying to, and I think successfully, processing her

own feelings about aging on screen. In most interviews with her, because she's in her early 50s, I believe now, and she didn't start directing until she was well into her 40s, and she talked about the insecurities that came around that and just the feeling that she was just getting started but soon she kept using the term of like, I just felt like even though it was irrational, I felt like when I turned 50, I would be erased. And that is like what this movie is about is that Elizabeth is being slowly erased. And I don't know, like I guess, yeah, what is your take on that? I understand the read of it. I just, that's not how I see it.

So Coralie Farja is 48 at the time of this recording. She would have been in her mid forties when she was making this movie. Cause I think they started shooting in 2022, I believe. My take on this, like does the movie do the thing that we have talked about a lot before on the podcast where the horror and grotesqueness that is coming from the horror movie is at the expense of the body of an old woman? And we generally do not like that because of its ageist implications. Yes, the movie is doing that. However, this time it's coming

from the writer-director perspective of a woman. So it is happening on her terms. You could maybe still argue that her examining all this is coming from internalized ageism. But I think exploring internalized ageism is like, I think it's a valid thing to do in a movie. Especially because she's pretty explicit that like this movie was developed out of like feelings of anxiety and insecurity she had about herself. And I know that I've certainly been guilty of this

over the years of just like expecting the movie to provide a comforting solution to this problem that has existed forever and is not going to be solved by a single movie. And that's not the purpose of the movie. It's not a movie for, sorry, it's not a movie for children. Like, it's a movie that is like exploring anxiety, but I feel like there's sometimes the feeling that a movie that explores an anxiety also has to resolve it.

And that's not how most anxiety works. I don't know. Right, for sure. What I'll say is that at the very least, the like old woman grotesqueness, at least it's not coming from a like cis man director who's simply just like, old women's bodies are so gross, right? It's not that this time it's a woman exploring what it is to have a female body in the context of a world that covets and fetishizes but also hates female bodies. So like

Right. This movie is only exploring cis women. For sure. Yes. Worth noting that definitely. There's an interview I read in Offscreen Central with Coralie Farja with interviewer Kenzie Vananoo. In this interview, Coralie says about the kind of body horror aspect of the movie, quote, I think living with our body from the start is a really hard experience. The reality of our body,

of the flesh, bone, and the blood of everything is something that I think truly shapes and defines our relationship to ourselves, to the world, and that is almost not taken into account. They're super taboo, like the pain during the period, the menopause. We're supposed to hide all of this. It's supposed to not exist. And so for me, body horror was something that I naturally resonate so much with, what we experience very much in our everyday life. And it's a perfect symbol of the violence of all the fears that we can project. Society asks our bodies not to change, for it to stay the same, to stay perfect, to stay sexy. Of course, it's terrifying when your body is changing because all day long we hear that it shouldn't change,

that it should still be the same. That's the only way that you're going to be appreciated or valued. So when the body actually lives its life of a normal body, it's totally terrifying because we are not taught that it's just normal." I think that's like a very clear statement of intent. Right. And maybe down the line, societally, if we ever get there where culturally we just accept aging bodies and particularly aging women's bodies and and like people aren't conditioned to be horrified by that. Like a story like this won't need

to exist or that won't be something that like an artist would be inclined to explore but yeah considering just like the cultural context of how society disproportionately values a woman's youth. Yeah, we do need stories that like examine the effects that that has on people and not just older people, like people of all ages. Like it'll manifest as internalized ageism, maybe for older people. It also affects younger people because they're afraid of getting old and like... Right. I mean it's like there's so... I mean and I've seen takes of like this is very timely and like this is the worst possible movie that could come out at this time for young women or whatever. I will say that

like this is the kind of movie that especially if you are a woman it will probably resonate with you because that is how you're perceived. And I was like, embarrassingly, like when I left the movie, one of the things was like, why don't I have boobs like that? It's because they don't exist. It's because they made them up. And of course, like you bring all your own insecurities, right? To a movie that is explicitly about insecurity, however flawed. But an observation I thought was interesting that I think was actually from Maia. I watched a couple different videos and read essays. It was all blending together. I think it was Maia because I think that, you know, the reasons this movie doesn't resonate with women is also a totally valid

read. But we've never been wrong before. No, I'm kidding. No, but I, Maia made a really good point in saying that something that frustrated her with regard to this movie was that she couldn't think of a movie that showed an older or elderly woman's naked body that wasn't a horror movie. I think that is a really valid point. I just don't think that that is a fault of the substance necessarily. I do think that that's a cultural thing, is that we're trained to see an elderly woman's

body as a site of horror. And you can argue that the substance does that, but I agree with you, Caitlin, that that is, I don't know. I can see, like, if I was very old, that that is, I don't know, I can see like if I was very old and saw that depiction, especially because it's a younger actor in elderly prosthetics, which we see in movies like Pearl, which we see it like it is a fairly common thing. Like I think that that is a valid point to make that this movie isn't really changing that. But I but I like, if the

alternative is casting an older actor and treating them as a side of horror, I don't like that better. I don't really know what the solution is there. Counterpoint, sort of. So Elizabeth Sparkle, the character, is supposed to be 50. Like we see her on her 50th birthday at the start of the movie. Right. Although Demi Moore, she's currently 62. She was 60 when the movie started filming. So, you know, she's an older woman whose naked body at first is not shown to be grotesque and horror. No, it's just what you see is that she is not happy

with her body. I think that's the main takeaway. And yeah, I felt like some people being like, well, you do see Demi Moore's gross body a little bit at the beginning. I'm like, well, that's a you problem. That's you projecting. If you think that's gross. Also, like, okay, yes, she's 60. And she has a beautiful body. She's famously hot. Demi Moore is famously hot, especially by, you know, Western beauty standards. But her 60 year old body is, I mean, she has access as a like rich and famous celebrity.

She has access to, you know, the best like fitness training and food that helps maintain a certain physique. And I have no idea how many or if any cosmetic procedures she has had, but like many, many actors and celebrities and stuff do, no judgment about that. But like the whole thing about the entertainment industry is that you're expected to look a certain way. And so Demi Moore's 60 year old body compared to like an average person's 60 year old body is quite different. So there's that

that you have to take into account. Right. I agree with you. Absolutely. I guess another criticism I was chafing with is like criticisms that I feel like that's kind of the point. If it wasn't the point, then Elizabeth Sparkle wouldn't be a famous media personality. Not to say that there aren't actors who naturally age. That's absolutely true. It's tricky to have this conversation, but I think that this movie has it pretty effectively where realistically, because of the expectations, and I can think of five actors over 50

off the top of my head who are women who are working high up in Hollywood, and they've all had to do something to maintain a look of youth. And that is not a criticism of them. I think that that is like unfortunately the uncanny moment that we're in that if you wanna still be a leading lady and not a character actor, you are not able to age naturally.

And I do believe, like I think that sometimes we get this messaging of like, isn't it amazing that like women over 50 can be in movies now? And you're like, yes, because these women are unbelievably talented. They've worked for it. And like, as their career goes on, they can produce their own projects.

They can have more creative say. They deserve that. But it would be dishonest. And this is again, not a criticism of these women, but it would be dishonest to say that there isn't an exchange for that. Like there, I can't think of an actor who's a woman over 50 in main roles, except maybe Frances McDormand, and even those are like Indies generally, who is the leading actor in a movie and has aged completely naturally.

It's just not something that is permitted. And I think that's part of what the movie is commenting on. And it feels like it's really important to Elizabeth's character of like, she has done everything, quote unquote, right. She has maintained her body and whatever. We don't know, you know, because we don't know a lot about Elizabeth, which I also feel like is kind of intentional, because she is just this like cipher. But yeah, like she's done everything right, but it's not good enough. And so she gets drunk, similar to like Jeff Goldblum and the fly. She gets drunk, makes a dumb decision and it ruins

her life. You know, that's a lot of body horror. And especially with Demi Moore specifically, I was thinking about and others have made this observation as well, especially with Demi Moore specifically, I was thinking about and others have made this observation as well, but how Demi Moore is like such an interesting choice for this part because her age has been the subject of discussion for decades. Like when she was dating Ashton Kutcher, there was like, she was like the quote unquote cougar, la la la. Her age has been a subject of discussion since she was like 40. And there was, you know, in the last couple of years, like this sort of round of mockery that happens

when any woman, but particularly an older woman who's quote unquote, you know, not what she used to be and the way that people talk about women who are aging and then try to quote unquote, fix the problem by getting an alteration and then they're mocked for it if it doesn't look completely natural. And yeah, another thing I was watching was there's a really good Mina Lay video,

I'm a big fan of hers. Yeah, her and Maia, they're the best. But Mina was making the point that, how there's a lot of, especially with like really young girls right now, But Minoo is making the point that, you know, how there's a lot of, you know, especially with like really young girls right now, there's a lot of fixation on like 12 step skincare routines for 12 year olds. There's a beauty trend where you tape your mouth shut at night to avoid wrinkling.

And there's like teenagers are literally taping their mouths shut at night. It's wild. And it's like, I think that this movie does effectively illustrate that like, it might help you in the short term, but it's not going to save you and it's not going to make you happy. Because this whole movie is about how Elizabeth Sparkle has like been conditioned and grown to really, really, really hate herself. And it's horrible to watch. Right. Which is a very interesting arc where, yes, she has been conditioned to think that

she is worthless because she's aging. She doesn't have the same respect and adoration she once had from fans. She is fired literally for being quote unquote too old and is going to be replaced by someone much younger. And obviously that takes a toll on her and it prompts her to do the substance so that she can live as a younger version of herself, at least part of the time. She sees the stark contrast in how much more valued her younger self is. And that takes an even greater toll on her to the point where when she's living as Elizabeth, she doesn't live her life. She stays inside, she watches

TV, she engages in disordered eating, you know, she's binge eating. You see her like waiting for and longing for the moment that she can switch back over to being, you know, she's binge eating. You see her like waiting for and longing for the moment that she can switch back over to being, you know, her younger self to being Sue. But then that flips at a certain point and it might partly be that man who says like, don't forget that you're still worthy, that you still matter. And then she starts resenting Sue.

Meanwhile, Sue is resenting her older self, thinking that she's pathetic, and it's like, but they're the same person. Right, it's kind of hard. I mean, it's like a liquor, even earlier, it's like, it's hard to remember that they're the same person. Ten years ago, us would be like,

women are always turned against each other in movies. It's like, this is one woman's battle with 50 years of being taught that you should fucking hate yourself and that it's somehow your fault. And it's a tragedy. It's really sad that she can't get herself to leave until she's so far gone. And it's just, it's really sad. Yeah. I was curious what you thought about like the moral of the story or like what the takeaway might be.

Because I was like, hmm, is it something like don't try to cheat aging because you'll turn into a monstro elisa sue and explode into blood on Hollywood Boulevard. And it's more complicated than that. But like, for me, it comes down to like, it's not offering a clean moral or solution. But to me, it's like, weirdly, again, this is a very different movie from Black Swan, but it feels like the pursuit of perfection and the pursuit of a form of neglecting yourself and completely being reliant

on the approval of others is a relentless and destructive force. And that is unavoidable to some extent, but it's like if everyone loves you and you hate yourself, it doesn't make a difference. And that I think in like the case of Elizabeth, that the odds are stacked against you and that like giving a shit about yourself is hard in a world where the older you get, the less others will care. Right, you can't even blame people

for having internalized ageism when society all around you internalized ageism when society all around you conditions you to devalue yourself and that you are not as worthy as you were when you were younger. So it's broad, but it's like it's supposed to be broad. I mean, it's so funny because like we were talking about, there's all of these things that we have repeatedly been like, oh, this again. But it just works for me in this movie because there has never been a more patriarchy the guy than this Dennis Quaid character, right? Like he literally is like, smile, smile. Or my God, I did laugh when he was like,

feathers, feathers, feathers. You're like, what the fuck? I hate that he's evil, but he did slay this. Like, I don't know, two things need to be true for a second. But yeah, I mean, he's a patriarchy, the guy character, but I guess it's like, you'll either kind of like this or not, but like all of the characters we see are kind of broad types.

We see different types of guys. You know, none of them are narratively specific. We don't know very much about Elizabeth. We don't know, it's something I actually really appreciate it. And I'll go back to like the murkier stuff that I feel like is likely tied to Corley as a person is that there is not a lot made of, I think that a lesser version of this movie would be defined by regret for like the right things she didn't do, like get married and have kids.

That is not a fixation of this movie. And I think a lesser movie would have so momified a cis woman that they wouldn't be able to help themselves. But because this is a battle with herself, the most important and defining thing in Elizabeth's life was her career, which is also a toxic thing when your career is conditioned to dispose of you when you had a certain age.

You know, other things that we criticize all the time that this movie does is Elizabeth doesn't have any friends. She doesn't have friends or a support system. But if that changes as a different movie, and again, it's like, I feel like this movie is just showing how she feels versus what the world really is. Because everyone, like the men in this movie are awful. And men can be that awful. But there is like the fisheye lens, like, it's like a heightened version of that awful. And being in Elizabeth's position would likely be lonely.

It probably wouldn't be that lonely, but it's all like turned up and it just kind of, I don't know, like I, even though this movie is doing a lot of things that I've criticized a million times, it just makes sense in this world to me. Because it is a very heightened reality, even though it's reflective of patriarchy and ageism and different things that very much exist systemically in the world, this is still a very like heightened story, of course. If Elizabeth did have friends, she probably wouldn't have sought out the substance because they would just like get together for like brunches and wine nights. And they could have been like, ha ha ha, aging is, it's hard, but we're getting through it.

You know, like they would have had each other to like bounce off of and support each other and like validate each other and value each other. But she lacks that support system. And it's like, it's sad. And even though it's like, that is not, again, it's like Elizabeth Sparkle is not a feminist icon, but it doesn't make her a bad person or a bad character.

It's like she's very much a product of her environment. There are moments where it's like, I mean, I guess, again, I've seen moments in her character characterized by other critics as like, you pity her, but I don't really pity her because there's like a part of me that really connects with her where it's just a heightened version. And this is why I'm sort of like, when I was like exploring a sort of a wide age range of critics, that I feel like most women, even women over 30 seem to be like, no, I understand

how that feels. And the feeling that you're no longer young enough to start something or be viewed as valued or the whole shedding that I remember the first time I wasn't the youngest person in a writer's room and it weirdly wrecked me where I was like, I'm cooked, I'm fucked, you're just like, because you're not like the cool young girl in the room. Like there's a younger girl. And the answer is, talk to her.

She probably needs to have an ally in this room and then become friends and it's fine. But like that is a complicated, weird set of emotions to navigate. And it's okay that she's fucking it up. I don't know. Right. I mean, again, I found myself very much connecting to Elizabeth and sometimes to Sue, but mostly Elizabeth where, you know, I'm pushing 40 and I'm always like, why didn't me as younger person stretch more because now I'm so inflexible and I can't touch my toes and I'm so stiff all the time and da da da da. And why didn't my younger self do this or

this or that? And I just like find myself resenting my younger self as I get older. And so I relate to Elizabeth's resentment of Sue, but also I'm just like, well, I could start stretching now. And then that's also I'm just like, well, I could start stretching now and then that's what I'm trying to do. Anyway. Right. There's, yeah, because there's, I think I'm like, I was struggling in the first watch of this, but then yeah, as it becomes clear that like Sue is a part of Elizabeth, the memory is thinking like you, you've reformed me, I need to watch it for a fourth time, but that like they are a part of each other. So it's, it doesn't, we haven't been led to believe that

Elizabeth has a history of being violently hateful of younger women. We don't know much about her, but I feel like we, it would be indicated in the way she's treated by Dennis Quaid. She's treated by Dennis Quaid as like a subservient person, like a pliable, again, which like ties into the whole characteristic of like, she does what she's told, she works out, she does the thing with her face, like she does everything she's supposed to do, and then she becomes literally a kind of like girl joker at the end, like when it's not enough, she jokerfies.

Fine, but it's like the reason that she's taking out violence on Sue is because Sue is her. And I don't know, I guess a point that I guess couldn't really be made by the movie because these characters only meet once and try to kill each other. But it does seem like it's at least hinted at that like, Sue is valued more, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she feels more comfortable about it. There's moments of that where stuff like the chicken belly button moment,

or there's moments where Sue feels genuinely ill at ease. I think the part of the movie that makes me most uncomfortable, like the shrimp scene is brutal, but the scene at the end where Sue, it just felt like a bad, like again, a bad dream, or like the feeling of being too drunk in public where everything like her teeth are falling out and she's like completely freaking out. But she's like,

I just need to get out of this building with everyone thinking I'm normal or yeah, like whatever smoking too much weed or like whatever it was like, and just feeling like you are, you are the most fucked up person that's ever existed, but you just need this weird random man you don't know to think that you're normal. I just like really, that really hit for me. Yeah. Yeah. I want to go back to talking about the men in this movie while feminist of me, but while we're on Sue, something that you very much notice when you're watching this movie is all of the like, lingering shots of a woman's butt or breasts or just like, you know, disembodied body parts that again, another thing that we tend to criticize because that is like,

generally male gaze cinematography. But the way we see it in this movie or like the way it's Framed or I feel like the implications it has is quite different than what we're used to seeing when we see this type of imagery because It's almost exclusively at the beginning of Sue's arc where we see her and she's new and she's young and she's Shiny and she's oozing sex appeal. There's like a part where she cracks open a can of diet coke and drinks it. And it's shot like a commercial. It's like the way that like marketing will manipulate people with like sexy imagery to trick you into buying stuff.

Because it's in it's all like fake and false. And I think the idea is just like, yeah, we're seeing all this like, you know, disembodied body parts and butts and titties and everything. But it's in the context of this woman who is valued specifically for those things, because she's young and has this taut round buttocks, again, a la Shrek 2, it feels different than the like, male gaze cinematography from a movie like whatever Transformers when we're ogling Megan Fox's body as she's like, bending over a car and like basically having sex with the car. The context isn't the same, the implications aren't the same.

I think you could still maybe criticize the cinematography of this movie. I understand why this would cross a line of satire into exploitation. I can see that. It doesn't bug me as much. satire into exploitation. I can see that. I think if I liked the movie less, I would lean more into that read. But they're saying something with this type of cinematography in this movie. What exactly are they saying? I'm still working on it. I think cinematography is one of the few things that I could be swayed into being

like, no, that wasn't great. That wasn't necessary. I feel like it's trying to emphasize, yeah, like this is what society is conditioning people to value about young women and their bodies and their sexuality. But that cinematography goes away as the movie goes on. I'm still processing it. Listeners, I'm curious what you think about it, but I was just like...

Yeah, I could definitely see a different inter... I also felt like so much of this, it feels like Coralie doing sort of like an inside joke of like because it's so over the top, because the movie is funny, just not for a lot of the reasons that the men in the room thought it was funny, which is why I have sought out really no men's opinions

on this movie. Mute, mute, mute, mute, mute. But it does feel like a sort of like a winky kind of reference to all the ways we've seen women portrayed over the years. I can see how that still might not work for some people, but it didn't bother me. I did think it was interesting that she says in the production short that she found this, it is a male cinematographer, Benjamin Kraken, pretty cool name. She saw his work. He was the cinematographer for Promising Young Woman.

Oh, yes. Yes. A movie that has aged weirdly. I kind of want to redo that episode. But yeah, it wasn't my favorite element of the movie by a long shot, but I mean, I liked more of the like experimental fun, like the helmet shots and like the blood shot with the metal music. I'm like, whew. Again, technically this movie's great.

There's awesome editing. It's so awesome. Yeah, I'm just like, I think there's probably like strong intentionality behind these like male gaze type shots. But what exactly is it? Going back to the men? Yeah, we do have a very like patriarchy, the guy type in Harvey in a way that feels appropriate. Because again, this is so heightened. It just feels intentional enough. It feels very intense. Right. But then you have other guys that are like, because in many movies we see like

just the one patriarchy, the guy in this movie, it's like patriarchy, all the guys like there's. Right. And they're like embody different facets. Right. Like, for example, the Fred guy, the person she knew from high school, he says something like, well, now that we're reconnected, we can go out for a drink. Meanwhile, they spent one second talking to each other,

but he thinks that like they've reconnected and that he's entitled to her time now. And you know, he seems like a quote unquote nice guy. But what does that mean? But he's not treating her like a person. He's like putting her on a pedestal. He is like not acting as though she's an actual like equal to him. And Fred really quickly, again, that's like,

it felt like another like layered decision to have her, because she set the boundary in the moment. She's like, OK. You know, and like she's like, give me your card. But intentionally doesn't share her contact info. But again, I just thought it was like a really kind of like sad, but understandable moment where it's like the way that she's been conditioned to feel as like being objectified is being seen.

So it's almost like, well, it almost like this movie operates on the assumption that there could not be a man who would respect her and see her for who she is, which is quite sad. And that she's like, I just need to be like perceived by somebody. And that's why she reaches out to him versus like, this guy is gonna be great for my life. It's just like, I just need to be seen for like fucking three hours. Right. I didn't read it as like, oh, this is going to be a potential romantic partner for her. It was just that she needed some kind of validation from someone who wouldn't be outwardly cruel to her. And that's like, you know, sometimes you need that. Look, I've done it. Sometimes you just

need to be viewed for a couple hours, and they're awful. And then you don't talk to him anymore. So there's his version of patriarchy. There are, of course, like the casting agent guys who are only viewing women as like objects and bodies and not actual people. There's the neighbor guy, Oliver, who is furious when he thinks that Elizabeth is making noise because she's old and gross.

But when it's a beautiful young woman who opens the door... Making noise is this cool, sexy thing that all the kids are doing. They're all a unique flavor of gross that is recognizable. I guess if this was a different movie, and this isn't even a criticism of this movie, I do think it would have been interesting to see women who are complicit in reinforcing these standards.

That's something that I actually do think that Promising Young Women does relatively well, is with the Dean character being like, "'Yeah, I don't care care because that puts my job at risk if I, you know, take your rape allegations seriously. And you know, I think there's certainly room for that. But I don't know, it's just hard to argue with how effective that like it's this is not a movie for nuance. I don't know. Yeah, the last thing I wanted to do is just like share a couple more quotes from Coralie Fargeot. I hope I'm saying her name right.

We're saying it different. I don't know. I don't know. The French. We don't know. We don't know French names. Just to share a little bit more about kind of like where she was and how she was feeling when she was writing this movie. So that same

off-screen central interview that I quoted earlier when the interviewer asked her what inspired her to start writing the screenplay, Coralie said, quote, really what I had felt my whole life about how I had lived within my body, how I had been led to constantly judge it in a negative way, how I had been led to torture it in many a negative way, how I had been led to torture it in many ways to try and make it look perfect with the beauty standards that were presented to me as being the only valuable option. And I think at every age I kind of fought with something that I didn't like or that I felt embarrassed with. Until recently when I passed my 40s and was going towards my 50s where I started really to have those violent thoughts like, now it's over for me, like I'm not gonna be interesting to anyone, I'm not gonna have an existence again, like it was like so violent

that I decided it was the right time for me to do something about all this, which I think has strongly shaped my relationship to the world. And I believe it's the same for many women. And I wanted to really free myself from this, or at least let it out, like throw it out somewhere in an undelicate, no control, not nice, not gentle way, which I think is the kind of opposite of where we are kind of asked to be." So yeah, this is just like, just how she has felt about herself and forming this story. Why she went with body horror is basically an act of defiance. So like, oh, you want me to have this perfect body and you want me to be delicate and gentle

and da da da. Well, no, I'm going to tell this story in a very violent way because that's the opposite of what society expects of me as a woman. So I just wanted to share that extra context because I think, you know, the criticisms people might have about this movie, fair, but I do appreciate, as we've said, that this is a different version of like, quote unquote, hag woman as horror, but coming from a very different perspective, coming from like experiential context. And it made for a really enjoyable movie for me.

The end. I agree, I agree. Yeah, I think that like a lot of the reads of the movie, and again, it's like, if you don't like it, you don't like it. Also, not everybody likes body horror. But most of the questions that I had about where the movie is coming from, I mean, have been pretty cogently answered by the writer-director. So I don't really know where you can ask. And if you

don't like it, you don't like it. But if you don't like it, you're wrong. And if you do like it for the wrong reasons, I really hate you. I like really left with a real bone to pick with some of those fucking neckbears in there who, you know, don't piss me off. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about regarding the substance? No, I mean, I think it's worth mentioning, although I know that if you've seen this movie, it's fairly obvious,

that while I think this movie has a lot to say about the standards that are applied to women specifically, this also appears to be like a pretty somewhat personal story from Coralie Fargeot and therefore it is not a particularly inclusive story. This is, while there are overarching expectations of women, this is a story specifically about an aging white cis woman and everyone's version of this experience is going to be different.

If you're listening to this show, you already know that, but it feels worth mentioning. But again, that's not even really a criticism of the movie because one movie can't do everything. And I really appreciate that. Like Coralie is pulling from her own anxieties about aging to make this. I feel like it's what makes the movie really good because she also clearly has a good sense of humor

about how fucked up this is, which is like just very refreshing and cool. But yeah, I think that was my last thing. The last thing I wanted to touch on real quick was a lot of people have pointed out the parallels between the substance and death becomes her. Yeah, I had not connected that, but totally. Probably other movies too, but I think that was the one that people were drawing a lot

of comparisons to. And I find it interesting that the movies have a similar premise, but they take on a very different tone where death becomes her is like silly, campy, fun vibes. I had a similar thought and I want to see if this trend continues, but when I watched Anora, I was like, oh, this is similar in premise to, for example, Pretty Woman. Right. Which is like, that's very intentional. Right. Yes.

But it's like, you know, from 30 years prior, and it also takes on a very different tone. And there was a third movie that I had this thought about that it came out within the past year or two, has a very similar premise to a movie from the 80s or 90s, but takes on a very different tone, like a darker, more cynical tone. I can't remember what the third movie I'm thinking of is,

but I'm just curious to see if this trend continues where a familiar premise from the past gets kind of recontextualized and re-toned almost. And I'm like, I wonder how that's going. It really like depends on who's doing it because I've only seen it once, but I liked Anora. I didn't love Anora, but I do like how it's clearly in conversation with that movie in a way that is still

not super punishing to watch. Yeah, I guess I didn't even think with Death Becomes Her, I've watched that movie somewhat recently. I watched it around Halloween, because it just feels right. But yeah, I watched that movie around Halloween, because it just feels right. But, yeah, I watched that movie around Halloween and I feel like what is also implied in Death Becomes Her is that the central conflict is also sort of around a man,

whereas around the women's relationship to each other, but there's also a central conflict around who gets the piece of shit guy? And I appreciate that the substance has no interest in that and there's just no nary a man in sight for longer than a minute or so true so yeah no I that's that's super interesting I also it's like two banger movies in completely different ways. Totally, yes. Just wanted to point that out. Yeah.

Does the substance pass the Bechtel test? Yeah, it does. It does. A lot of the movie is Elizabeth by herself or Sue by herself. If they're interacting with someone, it is often a man. Or like talking to the other one while unconscious, which unfortunately cannot pass. But I thought that was a funny almost pass where it's like, well, there are two women in the room

and the communication happening is important. However, one is basically dead right now. Responding. Yeah. The scene where they're fighting each other toward the end does pass the Bechtel test. I don't even think they really say much to each other, but I think them, you know, beating the shit out of each other. That's interaction.

That's communication. I'm like, does it pass the Bechtel test if it's two halves of the same woman talking to each other? Yes, it does. And spiritually, this movie passes big time. But I agree. I think that it's like, it's so often Elizabeth's talking to herself or making herself smaller to talk to a man,

which spiritually passes, but it's not as clean a pass as you'd expect. But again, flawed metric. We've said it a million times, we'll say it again. You know, it's not a flawed metric. Tell me, Caitlin. Well, it's the Bechtel-Cast-Nipple scale. Totally. A perfect metric that deserves no criticism whatsoever.

No, and we won't be hearing any. Of course, it's the scale where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Ooh, okay. I would say that even though this movie does a lot of the things that we have criticized on the podcast in the past, and if those things put you off from the movie, like, fair, I understand that. LESLIE KENDRICK Totally. It's not a movie for everyone, and that's fine. GIGI That's fine. But context is very important to consider. And in this case, the context and

perspective, narratively, is a woman interrogating her own experience with aging and how society has made her feel about aging and the commentary on how society values or does not value women based on their age. I feel like that is generally effective commentary that the movie presents. The movie is very funny and I'm not even a big body horror person, but like I was very on board. I know, that's why I was so happy when you loved this movie. I was like, that means it's like good, good. Because you're not always super on board with body horror.

I don't like it when it's just there for the sake of being there, but if it's there with a function and a purpose, I'm fine with it. And it was to me serving a very effective function in this story. As we mentioned earlier, I think there are aspects of this movie, especially much of what happens in the third act that could be read as being quite ableist. And also, if that is a perspective

that any of our listeners have, we would love to hear more. Yeah, I wasn't able to find a whole lot of writing about that specifically. I saw like a few tweets to that effect, but nothing. Yeah, similar. So yeah, I'd like to hear other perspectives on it, but I think you could also maybe argue that there's a lot of like gratuitous nudity in the movie,

but I also chalked that up to the director being French. And I was like, French people just aren't as pearl clutchy about nudity as my like prudish American brain. And I did feel, I mean maybe this is me again making an excuse for a movie I like, which has happened before. We've done it. But I agree that there are moments of gratuitous nudity. I feel like at least the intention was to comment on how gratuitous nudity is presented, even though I think you also could argue that like, aren't they just also doing it?

And the answer is maybe, but I like this movie, so whatever. So I don't care. There were so many parts though where I was like, can't they just drape a blanket over their other version of themselves? Isn't it really cold and uncomfortable? Isn't it so gnarly? They're always like, oh my God. Tile, bathroom, floor.

It is literally, it awakens so many. I have such a fear of, I mean, it's because it's so common, slipping and falling in the bath and hitting your head on tile, which is part of why that scene in, oh my God, that scene in Teton where she breaks her nose on the thing. But Demi and Margaret are like, pfft. I know that that's probably just an expression

of the self-hatred shared between the two of them, but I know, it's like, tuck her in. At least get a little hay bale or something. I don't know. Something. A hay bale, yeah, exactly. A hay bale. I. A hay bale. Yeah, exactly. A hay bale. I was going to say like silk sheets and-

An air mattress? Like it's not asking the world. No. But anyway, all this to say, I think I'll give the movie, on the Caitlin's rompo meter scale 10 out of 10. On the nipple scale, I'm somewhere between like a three and a half and a four. I think I very much enjoy the movie. It is not free from criticism.

I think again, various criticisms of this movie are very valid. But again, the commentary that it does provide, I think is both effective and delivered in a really fun, enjoyable way. And like the delivery method of commentary can often determine how effective it is. And, you know, when you're using comedy or satire or body horror, whatever the kind of tone and genre as a sort of delivery method for commentary, I think the movie does a really good job with that. So I'll say 3.75,

and I'll distribute my nipples among Demi Moore, Margaret Qualley, Coralie Farja, and the shrimps. I'm gonna go four on this, which might be recency bias. And if so, so be it. That's life, baby. That's life, baby. But I really appreciate this movie.

I feel, and again, this is just my opinion. I feel like this movie, while I agree, like there are many valid criticisms that I think we will continue to hear more about as time goes on. I appreciate, especially after listening to interviews with Coralie Farzat, that the intent feels very clear. That even if it is not a message that is for everybody and that there should be less white movies that are able to tackle topics like these, and there are, but I really, I just love how it is both a broad nightmare

and a weirdly personal story that clearly so many people have connected to. And I would also really be curious to listeners of your in-theater experience, because I think that what we were talking about earlier in the episode of like, we were all laughing, but we weren't all laughing at the same thing, is such an interesting thing to interrogate.

Totally. But yeah, I think this movie is fantastic. I love body horror, and I love body horror that is very intentional and is like saying something. And the performances are amazing. I just think this movie fucking rocks. Can't wait to see your next one. Can't wait to cover Revenge.

And with that, I'm going to give my nipples, yeah, I mean, if one to Demi Moore, one to Margaret Qualley. I'm gonna give one to Coralie Fargeot. And I will give my final one to... Sorry I'm not giving it to the shrimp. There I said it. Wow okay.

I almost thought you were gonna say Shrek. Shrek there. I guess I'll give my last nipple to Elisisu. Wow Montreux, Elisisu. Wow, monstro Elisisu. Yeah, rooting for her. Love her. And with that, I believe that we're sorry you didn't appreciate your experience with the Bucketle cast.

If you want to inject yourself with the thing that makes you die, please do so now. And we're sorry you didn't enjoy. Mm, yes. But if you did enjoy your experience, you can follow us, you can support us by subscribing to The Matrion at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where you get two bonus episodes every month, plus access to the back catalog of like,

somewhere around 170 or 180 bonus episodes. Yeah. So. An absurd amount of content. Yeah. And that's as always the best way to directly support this show. And with that, let's slither to our shared star

in the walk of fame and turn into Mist. Let's do it. Bye. The Bechtel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrasensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast,

please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast. Hey, what's up y'all this is Eric Andre. Well, I made a podcast called Bombing about absolutely tanking on stage. I tell gnarly stories and I talk to friends about their worst moments of bombing in all sorts of ways. Bombing on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life. I want to know what's the worst way they ever bombed or have they ever performed way too drunk or high or was there ever a time where they thought they were going to crush and they stunk it up?

Listen to Bombing with Eric Andre on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bombing with Eric Andre. I'm Marc Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. This podcast is based on my co-host Mark Seale's

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